Right About Now with Ryan Alford - Ball Hammocks and Bold Branding with Jens Nicolaysen CMO of Shinesty

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

On this episode, Ryan sits down with Shinesty Chief Marketing Officer Jens Nicolaysen to discuss the importance of branding and standing out with content that entertains and is unexpected. Shinesty is teaching a masters course for building community and branding that isn't scared to be, well, ballsy!Ryan and Jens hit the key areas for developing content and branding in  2021. Known for "Keeping you outfitted for all of life's social moments" Shinesty is a game-changing brand. Topics include: Entertain first. Sell last.Finding a niche and owning itDon't fear the hatersBuilding community with events (when they are back)Ecommerce best practicesThis is a jam-packed episode full of big-time value for brands of all sizes. Learn more at  www.Shinesty.comFollow us at www.TheRadcast.com and @The.Rad.Cast on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. 

It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now? Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. Hey guys, what's up? It's Ryan Alford. Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. I am joined today by maybe the raddest of all rads. I don't know. It's up there. It's for sure up there, Jens. But Jens Nicolaisa,

CMO, and co-founder of Shyness D. What's up, brother? Hey, man. Thank you guys so much for having me on. Hey, you know, it's funny. On one of our most recent episodes,

I had a guy on, and I was like, you know, the most appropriate name for a podcast might be Radcast for you guys. But now I'm going to throw it out. There can't be a more appropriate podcast for Shynesty than the Radcast. Certainly not. I don't know if we can, like, self-proclaim being rad, but we'd like to think that we're rad. Oh, are you kidding me? That Hawaiian shirt, if that is what it is, if there's nothing radder than that shirt, and everything that is the boldest of bold brands, that is Shina Steep. Very reverent, very cool, which we're going to get into.

But loving everything from the brand. I know we talked about it pre-episode, which we're going to get into, but loving everything from the brand. I know we talked about it pre-episode, but I've been in the vortex of Shinesh D content down that rabbit hole, and it was hard to get out of it in my juvenile, just, I guess, little boy or old boy or whatever you want to call it. Maybe it's got a sense of humor, but it was fucking hilarious, dude. Good. The strategy is working. Yes, it is. it's definitely working uh but

so shiny steve so party wear intimate wear ball hammocks i mean you know we got to go down that rabbit hole real fast and that's you know we talked about it strongly didn't rain let's go right out i mean it is like front and center when you hit the website it's like you know no banana hammock it's a ball hammock people ball hammock well you know we we actually do have kind of a long and sometimes sordid history with banana hammocks as well we we started out selling uh really like the initial like images for the company was you know apparel for all of life's social moments. Those were everything from swimming in the beach with your friends to the Fourth of July to Christmas to Halloween to the Kentucky Derby and everything in between.

We sell a lot of underwear and a lot more mainstream products like this shirt now. Our history is really rooted in those many many many life many of life's social moments so yeah do we have toga wear you know when i you know i was thinking like toga wear that's a good one but is it more than is it just a sheet i've been to plenty of toga parties and it was always just uh how how inexpensively can you buy a sheet at walmart or targets this is true this is true i guess that's like the first thing that came to mind when I think about it. I have to write that down, though. That might be a challenge to our product team.

How do we make – look, how long has Togo Parties needed like some secondary additions to the lineup? Brent, where the hell have you been all our lives? Why aren't you over here working for us? Hey, we can talk about that later. I know you guys keep things in house, but maybe we can go out of house. You know, if nothing else, you might can hire me for free just because of how fucking cool the brand is. So I might just want it on the resume that I had like, you know, 0.10 ideas for Shire and Steve. As long as you don't mind being compensated in uh in underwear

with a ball hammock inside of them oh ball hammock pouch inside of them you wear it with pride wear it with pride so uh jens let's talk a little bit about you your background what led you to shinesty what led to you know we've talked about a little bit the event event where party event where but uh let's give a little bit of the origins here totally well i i studied marketing in college and i guess i'm maybe one of those those rare individuals that actually does what they studied although i say what i do now is is very it does not exactly resemble what you studied in school or at least when i went back back when i was in school uh but right out of school well actually my interest in marketing kind of stemmed from just consumer behavior and psychology in general and I really saw marketing as kind of like the business outlet for that where depending on how you price things depending on how you position things depending on the way the creative communicates

with individuals you can actually change their behavior so that really fascinated me and out of school I got into management consulting basically basically with an emphasis in marketing. And I was primarily working for very large brands, the Nestle portfolio, the Coca-Cola portfolio, the Pernod Ricard portfolio, and the list kind of goes on and on and on and on from there. on and on and on from there. And it was really great. You get to see a lot of big brands are built, how, you know, big businesses are managed and run, but you don't really get to see like kind of the modern ecosystem of digital marketing. You didn't really get to, didn't get a lot of exposure to like the digitally native brands that, you know, we were part of now. And if I had kind of like one, you know, regret while I was in management consulting, it's like at the end of the day, you kind of pass off a strategy and recommendation and you don't ever get to see it through to completion.

And what I really loved about my time at China Steel is that, you know, we got to learn all these things. We manage everything in-house. That's going to be probably a big theme of everything we talk about here. But we really got to see, you know, at China Steel, we really get to see where the rubber hits the road and how things are actually built from the ground up versus basically that, basically a project stopping at a, you know, big report and then that's it. You kind of hope that someone takes your recommendation and does something with it. Yeah, we have that in common. I will say that,

having worked with a lot of large brands at the agency over my years, that was always a little bit of frustration there were some projects where you know and some clients where they really involved you down to the ground level of okay here's the sales there it is but i mean i don't know about you but i don't know how many projects or how many clients i've worked with where you know we're they're paying us big money these are huge product launches and like we do some part of it and you might see a report, but you don't ever really feel every and see all of the elements and all of the ups and downs and sales and the and, you know, much less all the digital metrics that might be there. But that was always frustrating. No, and you never really know if the success of like an idea or the failure of an idea is because of the idea

itself or it was because of the execution and that's probably another reason like when we have good ideas we like to you know think that we're probably the best people in most cases to actually bring them to life for that reason most functions most channels and everything that we've done have all been built and managed in-house yeah i love that so the origins of shynessy though were you know party wear and you know didn't ever want to give that up that's right yeah my my uh business partner and i and i got to give a lot of credit to him he this this was kind of his original brainchild but we had a similar experience in college where we were both like we love going to theme parties and events

now we're graduated though so like time to get rid of our party closet party stops here let's join the real world get jobs and you know be be grown-ups and fortunately fortunately for everyone in college listening to this that's not true the party does on. It doesn't matter if you're 21, fresh out of college, you know, 30 with your first kid or 65 and retired people party through their whole life. And so that's kind of a big learning for us. We really thought this was going to be like a young professional, uh, kind of brand people who had a little more disposable income, but didn't have the time to go out and find cool, cool apparel for all of life social moments um but fortunately we realized like actually no people have a need for this across their whole life and and for that reason the

market is much bigger than we ever imagined um and so yeah we really got started by like if that's kind of the impetus for the products we wanted to create these really like cool irreverent products for all life social moments whether that's again Christmas St. Patrick's Day 4th of July or all you know tailgates the list goes on and on and on and we kind of created product lines around all these big big events and we were kind of like thinking about the products and we're like you know what this is like if these products are going to be pretty extra like the brand should be really in your face it should be irreverent it should be snarky it should be sarcastic it should be pretty extra, like the brand should be really in your face. It should be irreverent. It should be snarky. It should be sarcastic. It should be polarizing just like the products are. And in a lot of ways, that was kind of a reaction to a lot of the brands that were,

you know, becoming big at the time online that, you know, looked really clean. They're sophisticated. You know, they're run well in a lot of cases, but they all are kind of like serious and like minimalist. And we were like, no, let's actually like kind of flip the script and be maximalist basically. Like let's be in your face. Let's be very different than all those brands with just like this kind of copy and paste aesthetic. And I think that's certainly help us stand out. I certainly think we are polarizing as a result but that's one of the biggest reasons for our success overall I would say our marketing philosophy in general is to entertain first and sell second and so we really hope that comes through in everything

that we do and we kind of consider it a badge of honor actually like to be actually polarizing if we get some blowback from what we're doing that probably means that we kind of towed the line and went went just far enough because we like to think that like brands in the middle brands that like barely kind of aren't appealing in a really really really strong way to anyone are dying or just will never ever stand out so in order to really really appeal to some people we think you kind of gotta like alienate some people along the way and that way you know you've really landed with an audience oh yeah okay a lot to unpack there but i'm going to start with this this key insight people we got

a lot of people's startup brands middle brands ceos at large companies that listen to the rad cast but this is the hallelujah amen that i want to highlight entertain first sell second no matter what brand you are wherever you are however you are if i had an amen button amen i'm hitting it right there because that is the key to marketing your brand in 2021 and what you don't have to be selling ball sack hammocks or whatever it is. I'm adding hyperbole here. I like it. But to be entertaining.

You can be a lawyer, a doctor, a pharmacist, a insert profession here, entertain first, sell second. Hey, that should be in the Bible playbook of commerce in 2021. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm really glad you pointed that out i mean clearly we think of that and our version of entertainment is through comedy i think a lot for a lot of brands that is just not going to be the way they entertain people you can entertain people through other types of content though you can educate people there's a lot of other ways to add value that are not comedy which is probably what we'll continue to talk

about um but if you think about it from just a sheer practicality of like as a consumer there's a rule i think i'm pretty sure it's three percent but it's some percent and it's some small single digits number that is like at any time only three percent of a market are actually like in need of a product and that was like especially true for us in fact i think if you're selling a denim print banana hammock, the market is probably even a lot smaller than 3%. And so we kind of figured we needed a way to keep communicating and engaging with customers when they didn't need our products because the chances that they needed some like really out there, you know, full pattern Christmas suit or denim printed banana hammock or

whatever it was was really really really small so we needed a way to keep people engaging with the brand to keep them opening emails watching our ads even if they didn't need that product at that time because most of those have a really specific time and place that doesn't happen every single day or every single weekend ding ding ding ding attention is is fleeting. You need to keep your customers' attention at all times as much as you can so that when they do need your product, they're still around or they have a reason to be around because what happens is in today's world, people are so brand unloyal. They follow the needs and where attention is, and so they forget about you.

That's what people forget. They're so busy acquiring new customers acquiring new customers but how do we keep the attention and the leverage with the clients that we already have this is like a this is like a master class in marketing already well thank you uh no i mean i'm i'm glad you you happened upon that it couldn't be truer and it's it's i think what's made us be so successful to date. I will say this. So just speaking from personal observation over the years, back to the party themes and all that, it's such an insight, too, because my wife and all of her friends, we do a supper club,

and every one of them is themed. Now, they're not Toga themed or whatever, but we do them. They're all themed. Like, we had the Winter Wonderland party. Like, we had all this stuff. It snowed. It never snows in South Carolina.

It snowed on the day we did one. I was like, we called that in. But the insight, though, that people, girls, guys, kids, boys, girls, this isn't like one or the other. People love fucking theme parties they love that shit they die they they want to get dressed up they want to have fun they want to

release from the everyday world and people still love all that stuff yeah i mean it's like universally people love getting together and there's certainly like if you add a theme to it you add this like layer to the onion that makes the whole event more fun, you got to plan for it when you're actually there, it's a lot more fun. So, you know, that was, that was a pretty critical insight and a pretty critical thing that needed to come together for this to be a business at all. the first basically four years of this business was just kind of scaling to the through these types of events and releasing new products new prints for those events only in like the more you know recent couple years has really shifted towards being towards product lines that have a lot more like mainstream lifestyle appeal but yeah i we really thought we really really thought this was just going to be like a young professional or college aged audience. And then we were like totally surprised when 30 year olds, 40 year olds, 50 year olds, 60 year olds were buying. And actually, it was a really pretty broad audience, much broader than we ever could imagine.

I love it. So talk about maybe the innovation cycle for you guys. I love it. So talk about maybe the innovation cycle for you guys. Like how did you, you know, whether it's product, whether it's marketing, we'll go broad in the innovation sense. But what's that process like for you guys? Like obviously you have a very modern, irreverent, fun brand. In many ways, you know, you think, well, that makes it easy to be innovative, but not necessarily. I would, you know, I think I'd love to know how that product development, marketing development, you know, just that innovation cycle for you guys, how you guys

stay fresh. That's a really, that's a great and loaded question. I know there's a lot there. Could have been seven questions, but I like to put them all into one. Just put them all out there. Yeah, so you can answer it as you flows naturally. 20-minute string of words follows. You know, the way we've done it is probably different than a lot of others would do it. At the very beginning, we couldn't afford to create huge product lines for tons and tons of events that you know had shirts and shorts and underpants and jackets and swim trunks in them like if you think about all these themes christmas fourth of july sorry that's

grotesque i've got a huge huge blister on my hand for watching the video you guys are gonna have to cut that out uh forever you got all these themes right all these different times throughout the year and then you got all these different product types and if you think about the quantity of combinations it's basically impossible for like a young you know largely bootstrapped or friends and family you know with with a little bit of friends and family money to go out and test all of these products and categories so we started with vintage clothing and that allowed us to test a lot of different product types across a lot of different themes. And from there, we were kind of able to triangulate around which, you know, combinations of those got the most interest from people. And

even though we couldn't sell, you know, over and over like tons and tons of USA windbreakers, for instance, because they're all vintage, they were all one off. We were able to track other signals behind the scenes, like how many people lingered on that product, how many people tried to add it to cart even though it was out. So we could start to figure out which products had the most mass appeal on our site. From there, we started either white labeling products or buying dead stock products to be able to sell more and more. And then we started to be able to actually more and more. And then we started to be able to actually develop our own private label line. And today the site is, you know, 99% products that are designed and manufactured in-house. So that's kind of like the earliest

days of product innovation. From there, it's really become kind of two part. One, we're trying to think about like what are large market areas where there is kind of no, where either there's limited product differentiation and our brand can stand out. that really is it like everything we're trying to do is figure out hey can we apply our you know irreverent unique brand to large categories whether that's apparel or maybe in the future not apparel because we really see our creative our content as the biggest differentiator and obviously we want to we're going to create amazing products along the way but we're kind of trying to identify large market segments in order to really inform where we, you know, put all of our product development time and all of our marketing creative efforts. Where does the creative inspiration come from? I mean, what is it? That's a great question, too. I mean, this brand and all the creative we put out would not be

possible and it would not work without the people internally. It comes from everybody that works at the brand who loves what the brand stands for, who, you know, believes in our mission to force the world to take itself less seriously. And so we're always trying to think about like, you know, at the end of the day, if we're going to market a product, it has to solve a need of the customer. And there are probably product features and benefits that make those, uh, that actually solve those problems. So those need to be communicated, but the way you communicate them can be really, really irreverent. And the more irreverent we've made things, the more it tends to stand out from 99.9% of other advertisers out there that are pitching

their products in like boring, generic ways. And so our kind of like mission with all of our our content all of our creative really is to entertain first sell second and those two things really go hand in hand because people are are inherently drawn towards entertainment they're inherently drawn towards comedy it's a positive emotion and then if you're actually appealing to them because they have a you know a problem or a need to to be solved and a product that can authentically fulfill that need, you've got a winning recipe that's going to take off. Absolutely. Talking with Jens Nicolason, CMO and co-founder of ShineSty. You can find them online.

You can Google them at ShineSty. Shine S-T-Y. Yeah, man, there's a lot to unpack there as well it's like i i can't think of like everything now is so damn pc everything is so serious like i mean it's like i'm exhausted like that was part of the beat going down the vortex with you guys it's like well it's kind of like you know i've been dying to see like another happy gilmore like adam sandler like just silly movie like they don't make that shit anymore and it's like when well, it's kind of like, you know, I've been dying to see like another Happy Gilmore, like Adam Sandler, like just silly movie. Like they don't make that shit anymore. And it's like when I went down the content rabbit hole with you guys, I was like, you know, like this was like tension relief or something.

You know, like it's like, has there ever been the right brand at the right time to like kind of like cut through? Like you guys are nailing it. Well, really appreciate that. It's definitely something we try to hang our hat on it's not easy to have a strategy like that you got to like really be continuously pushing creative it means you're gonna like alienate people so if you ever take a strategy like that you got to be able to say like we know this isn't for everyone but nothing is like so few things are for everyone that i think it's a much more inherent strategy to take than try to appeal to everyone. And I think it's one of those things that it's a risk if it's not done

authentically, it's going to go down in flames. So but if you think you can do it authentically, if you think you've got a repeatable content and brand strategy, it can help you stand out because I said 99.9% of brands and businesses do not take that approach. Yeah, I'd say 99. If there's another number there, like 9999, you know, absolutely. But let's talk a little bit of nuts and bolts of marketing. You know, what's worked for you guys? What are the what's the bread and butter? You know, I dare say if we can, you know, there's for you guys what are the what's the bread and butter you know i dare say if we can you know there's very little secret sauce anymore necessarily in marketing tactics it's more the creative and the brand that you've built that makes it stand out but maybe talk about some of

those nuts and bolts like what you guys lean on for for telling the story yeah well i you you said it really well. First off, creative underpins everything we do because it is the biggest point of differentiation today in digital marketing. The things that work for us tend to be the things that work for most businesses selling online. You got search, paid and organic. You got CRM, email, SMSs that type of thing you've got direct mail you've got paid ads paid social organic social it's the things that tend to work for everyone that work for us for a reason and you also said this really astutely like there's not a lot of secret sauce to those things at this point like the management of those channels is it's not totally formulaic like but there is a tried and true process out there and if you get the right person in the right seat they'll do a

great job managing that channel and then it's really the creative and the product that has to keep you standing out on those channels uh so yeah i mean to really sum this up we operate probably the same channels that 99.9% of other digitally native direct-to-consumer brands do. And we run them really well. I think otherwise we wouldn't have been able to get to this scale that we're at. But the reason we've been so successful on those is truly because of our creative and our product that stands out. Yeah, and it certainly does. But how, talk about, you know, maybe some more of the channels.

Like, you know, TikTok's growth. It strikes me as maybe the right platform for you or maybe not. I'm not sure. Like, at first, it'd be like, oh, you guys are on TikTok. You're young. But, you know, like you said, older. So I could go either way on TikTok. You're young, but, you know, like you said, they're older, so I could go either way on this, but what's been the TikTok strategy? Has it been

something you're just kind of still testing, or is it like something that's a real needle mover for you guys? It's not really something that we put a lot of time and effort into yet, candidly. I will say, like, there's a lot of these things that come up, and TikTok does look like it is going to be a platform with real staying power.

But I think there's a really delicate balance that at least businesses like us, we don't have like unlimited resources. We haven't raised a ton, ton of money. We have a pretty lean marketing team, all things considered. And so I think there's real cost benefit that goes into diverting your focus to kind of explore nascent channels versus putting that time and effort into the ones that are really driving effort today. It's a delicate balance of how much you invest in these platforms. And sometimes there's a real first mover advantage. And sometimes like the algorithms and the paid side of it are just not developed enough to have it really reap disproportionate returns for the level of effort. And that same level of effort could get you a lot farther put into a more established channel. That said, will we go there? Yes. Will we like figure out what it's

going to do? Yes. Have we? No, not yet. Well, you just very well spoke what i call and recommend a lot of people that 80 20 rule like 80 of your business is probably because it coming from 20 of the available channels out there and you're funneling where your audience is now and where you you know you're getting and diverting energy, which is both, I call marketing energy, both, yes, sales is part of that, but engagement energy and overall brand depth, and then, of course, the revenues. And so it sounds like you're being strategically focused, which is smart, again. But I could see, I'm envisioning,

because I've been delving. We've been really digging in on TikTok. I can see that coming for your future. It might open up even another channel for you guys. But hey, the time will come. Yeah, I think it's all just about exploring those things at the right time for the business. I like to question a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of marketers to like,

don't drop everything just to do the next new thing. And the next new thing, like you should, you know, you got to zoom out, you got to look at your business, you got to look at your biggest opportunity and you got to realize you, everyone for the most part has limited resources. And so you got to use those limited resources to get you the most impact you know now into the future so how do you guys go about thinking about e-com like obviously that's where your sales are happening i get i i'm not aware of an in-store i mean you guys are 100 e-com right yeah i mean like 90 i know you do some of the events and things like

that when you know the monster that's covid wasn't around, but I'm sure that'll come back. But is Shopify a Shopify platform? Yep. Yeah, been happy with that. Any ups, downs, sideways recommendations for any entrepreneurs out there just on the kind of direct e-commerce side of the business? It's a great platform you know they're always like getting things together and learning how to be a better you know better platform for the largest retailers that are on there you know if you're just starting out it's a great platform the more you scale the more you try to push the bounds of it that's when you kind of you know tend to feel those those limitations

disproportionately but they're doing a lot they're doing a lot. They're doing a lot. And we've been generally really happy on them. So I would highly recommend it. Yeah. I didn't mean to set you up, but you explained it perfectly. We're a Shopify partner. And about 85% of the companies come to us, we push them there. No matter where they are, their product stays.

There's always a chance, like some good Magento, we need a custom solution or things like that or or just custom built but it seems to really assist with a lot of the blocking and tackling of of ecom so just curious totally i mean i think if you think about the brands that got started on on shopify and how lean they've been able to be from like a development standpoint like people used to have to hire huge engineering teams database architects just to have a site and you know shopify has done so much to just and some others have done a lot to just democratize that and make it so easy to get up and running and test the product market fit without having tons and tons of expensive overhead to do it what's the um anything on the horizon for shine steve whether it's marketing content product lines anything you know kind of in your uh you know things you can talk about yeah this this really

relates back to uh your question before about like development too. So now that we've built a seven figure customer base, we have a lot of ability to think, you can put new products out to them and test it a lot easier than starting a business, a new product where you only have paid avenues for instance. So a lot of what we're doing is looking at that customer base and thinking what peripheral needs like what is the composition of that customer base based on different product types or themes or whatever you want, however you want to break it down. And then, you know, it's pretty easy for us to see like, okay, these are the big groups of people. These are the big products they buy. And then to start to think about really deep about peripheral products that they also need.

If someone likes our underwear, can we make, can we put that technology in swim trunks or shorts? Can we help them, you know, get their balls cleaner? Those types of things are, are just ideas of where we're at. There's some ideas of where we're going. I love that. And, uh, and another masterclass of marketing here, everyone, this is why you build first party data. This is why you build first party data this is why you build your customer base because growing and acquiring customers is expensive and time consuming and it takes a lot of time and once you get to scale with your customer base like you guys have it gives you a lot of ability not only only with product development, but with remarketing, with lifetime

value. There's so many things that become at your call when you developed that database. Totally. Once you have an active and voracious audience and you just put new things in front of them that they expressly need or they didn't even know they needed it you know the flywheel effect is is really real and uh any entrepreneur starting out like it's so easy to just think about acquisition and acquisition because at the beginning that's where like most of your your scale and success is going to come from and quickly but if you're ignoring the long-term proposition of what's going to keep your your customers engaged you are never going to achieve profitability and you're never going to have have real staying power so that's right so what's what's the long tail for for gins i mean

like just riding this train like uh any uh personal or professional goals out there? Yeah, that's a really big question. I'm a new father, and I've got a 16-month-old, so I'm learning how to continue growing this business and putting my all into it while also being a new dad, which is an amazing experience. A lot of learnings, a lot of trials and tribulations but but certainly an amazing and deeply fulfilling thing but yeah i mean we've got every time we've reached a new stage of success at china steve we've realized wow there's even more out there to come and more out there to come and every time you kind of hit a new one of these like levels of success it just becomes in some ways harder but in other ways easier to

just see the next stage and see the next stage so i i think we've got a long way to go i think we've got a lot of exciting product lines i think we've done the hardest thing to do which is prove that people love our brand and our philosophy around it and now that we've proven that out we think it'll be a lot easier to kind of copy and paste other categories. Love it, man. Where can everybody keep up with everything ShineSD and Gens? Pretty much every platform is going to be at ShineSD Threads. And you can keep up with me.

I'm on LinkedIn. If I can help anybody out, please shoot me a message. Gens, J-E-N-S, Nicolason and I see OLA YCN. There's not a lot of them on LinkedIn. Sweet man. It's been great. I'm, I'm, I dig the brand, man. I'm digging everything you guys are doing. You're doing a masterclass in marketing for how to engage, how to entertain and how to keep your customer base and acquire new customers through entertainment, not selling. Love it, brother.

Hey, man. Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, man. It's been awesome. You know where to keep up with Shine and Steak. He just told you where. That is what you want to be doing with your brand. You may not be irreverent, but you need to stand out.

It's more important than ever. This is Ryan Offord. You know where to find us. Theradcast.com at the.rad.cast. And I'm everywhere at Ryan Offord. And on TikTok, I'm verified, at ryan.offord. Go look, find, search, keep up with all things Radical Marketing. We'll see you next time on the Radcast.