Right About Now with Ryan Alford - James Gregson, Digital Creative Director, Americas, The LEGO Group - Discussing Digital Commerce and Marketing

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

Welcome to another episode of THE RADCAST! In this episode, host Ryan Alford discusses strategic digital commerce and marketing strategies with James Gregson, Digital Creative Director, Americas at The LEGO Group.In today's episode, host Ryan Alford chats with James Gregson, about these  marketing topics:How Jame's career journey took him to LEGOs.Where James finds creative inspiration and why thats so important.How he accomplishes a healthy work and life balance.Social media marketing strategies for 2021.And more hot marketing trends!Follow James on LinkedIn and other social media platforms @jlwgreg | If you enjoyed this episode, like and share it.  Let us and the world know you're listening by tagging us on Instagram @the.rad.cast | And don't forget to tune in next week!  If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. 

It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now? You're listening to The Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, it's Ryan Alford. Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. I am excited for myself and my children a bit today. From a brand perspective, I'm joined by James Gregson, who is the Creative Director of Digital at Lego. What's up, James? What's up? Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Yeah, man. You know you're going to get it. I mean, every time, especially a guy with kids, as we talked pre-episode, four boys under the age of 11. Look, you know how many Legos are in my house? I could build a bridge from here to uh connecticut i i can imagine i can imagine i was just on a creative brainstorm the other day talking about how around christmas time i got a ping pong table and i think that ping pong table lasted like until new year's eve before it was a lego table so i get it i was in that my brother and i were in that sweet spot um my three kids under three years old are not quite in that sweet spot yet. I'm trying to not have them swallow Lego. Yes.

God bless your soul doing that with the twins and the daughter. But yes, I both blessed you and cursed you because, you know, I'm a big guy and I walk around our house. And, you know, it's a long way to the floor for me and uh you don't know how many uh in the foot uh ow what is that it's a lego piece like stuck what's the the saying misery loves company i don't think you're alone in that feeling i can't speak to it much more than that. Yeah. Well, cool. I trust you guys are doing well and living in the new normal that we have here, unfortunately, with COVID. You know, seeing, you know, you know, like those outreaches and things like that. But I trust you're, it looks like at home, like many people in the corporate world, especially.

Yes. Yeah. We've been at home since around March. I've been into the office, I think, three times since March. The office is somewhat slowly opening up, but who knows how that's going to evolve. Well, James, let's get started for our audience. Obviously, they know Lego, but let's start with, this is really about, you know, James and your story

and kind of your background. I know you've been in digital and social a long time, but maybe let's just start down that traditional path of your background and history in the marketing world that's led to Lego today? Sure. I will say it was definitely not traditional. I was anything but an academic. I hated school. School was a vehicle to delay work, I think, to some extent, or to party, to be quite honest. Guilty. I, yeah, I mean, it is what it is.

But, you know, I graduated with the very transferable skills of computer animation with a minor in painting. Funnily enough, yeah. Doesn't everyone have that? Funnily enough, I actually started in college with advertising design, which is basically what I do now. But I just didn't find that interesting. Go figure. But long story short, you know, I was in college when Facebook came up, when it was only for college kids. And I was interning at a marketing agency and there was a social

networking company that was wanting to launch in the U.S. And at that time, the date myself was about 15 years ago, but even more than that, social networking and social media was like not even a thing. Bloggers were kind of a thing, but like it wasn't even a thing. But long story short, I completely BS'd my way into a new business pitch as an intern because I claimed to know everything there was about social media and social networking because I was on Facebook. But no other marketing executive in this large publicly traded marketing organization, publicly owned marketing organization knew about what social networking was. And that kind of social media, the way everyone does social media now, fake it till you make it. Like how many multimillionaire success pages do we follow? You're well ahead of your time. Sure. But yeah, so long story short that that's got me kick-started and it's sort of really i think it identified something in me that i was like oh but i know a lot more

about this naturally than many other executives um do and you know similar to my background i sort of i i straddled that line between the the data-driven piece because that's so critical critically important uh social media and community management and paid social with obviously the creative background that I have or the sort of creative skill set that I have. You know, I basically worked all the way through the agency world in New York City, publicly owned, privately owned startup, Had enough of the agency world as most people do. Decided it would be a great idea to start up my own business. It was great fun.

Five years of, you know, deciding what I wanted to do, who I wanted to work with and how I wanted to work. And it was super successful. I didn't have health insurance, but it was super successful. And then through that, you know that, I had my own clients. I worked as a consultant for large agencies on projects, and I also white-labeled my services for smaller agencies. And that's how I got connected to Lego. I started working with their former PR agency based on the West coast um and then started working on letter lego projects through them and then an opportunity opened up at the

social team at lego and i i joined them that's awesome where does your creative background i know you're overseeing multiple disciplines are you naturally a designer, writer, videographer, all of the above? I think you sort of alluded to it before, but, you know, I think most social media generalists would argue that they are storytellers, right? If you're really going to focus on something, I think that's where and, you know, most traditionalives will hate me for saying this right but i am like that short form snackable content storyteller right because as we all know anyone anyone is social or digital you've got three seconds five seconds maybe 10 seconds to grab someone's attention if you don't you're not doing your job right that is not the traditional you know creative tvc style creative direction um so it probably pains a lot of traditional creatives to hear me say that but

that is what it is how's your growth and you know i know you've had a few positions there within lego talk about some of your growth and the differences in the position kind of roles yeah no it's a good question. And it sort of speaks to what I was talking about earlier. You know, social media at Lego was sort of originally this sort of beginning to end solution or end to end solution, right? Everything from channel strategy to community management to some creative development to channel engagement

to paid media to analytics. It was all managed within one global team that I was a part of. And that was very effective for getting things done in a very large, highly matrixed organization. That was not so effective in making a lot of friends internally, getting buy-in from regional marketing departments and sort of scaling to a level that we probably needed to scale to go beyond our initial growth. So we've since sort of been, I don't want to say like obliterated, but we've since been broken up and been various departments have been moved into sort of larger departments that make sense. For example, engagement has been moved into, you know, the customer service team. Social media travel strategy has been moved into the strategy team within the internal creative agency.

to the strategy team within the internal creative agency. And then, so my new role now has been moved into the internal creative agency as we try and sort of build out a larger understanding of what digital and social content development looks like, both as an internal creative team and supporting sort of external creation as well. It seems to me like, I know you guys have a lot of employees. It just seems that the ecosystem of Lego is overwhelming.

Like, from the outside looking in, and I know you have your silos and everyone has their roles, but is it just as daunting as it seems? everyone has their roles, but is it just as daunting as it seems? Or is it like, or is it, I know there's, there's organization in the, in the hugeness, my really great grammar, but you know, is it just as great? Is it just as gigantic as it seems? I think it is. Yeah. That's a fair, that's definitely a fair feedback. I think on the flip side, if I'm going to be super positive, I think it speaks to the scale of the opportunity, right? If you look at someone like, you know, Apple, right, as a brand that sort of really brings to life what a digital ecosystem should look like.

a digital ecosystem should look like and, you know, how that sort of brand experience is replicated at every physical and digital touch points. That's I think something that we are aspiring to from a digital ecosystem standpoint, potentially simplify and make it feel less daunting, but also make it feel high quality and, and, you know, luxury to some extent because that that's what consumers have come to expect from the product itself. It is a very high-end quality product, and we want that same experience from every single time you log onto the website to buy a product to visiting a retail store.

So the short answer is yes, I think it is a bit daunting because there are so many, in some cases, to be frank, siloed digital outputs. But there is a lot of energy around what our digital ecosystem should look like moving forward,

what digital transformation means to us at Lego, and then how from a content marketing standpoint, how my team can be supportive of that. I will say, I felt, I'm going to add one to the ecosystem, having been there, Legoland. Yeah. Actually, you know, thoroughly delivered on the overall experience like it's a to this day my kids favorite place uh that we've gone to we've gone to all the different ones which in a covid world seems crazy but you know hopefully we'll be back there soon but uh so you guys do a terrific job of carrying it through at all levels have you spent any time down there? That is the goal. I have definitely,

I've been to the one in Orlando. I'm excited to go to the one in New York that's opening soon. Our newest one. But yeah, yes. I mean, that's that physical manifestation of the product experience, right? From bringing it more to to from building or consumption from an entertainment or tv uh you know show style environment to that physical um uh experience it's it's cool to see come to life can we or can we not break any details on logo the movie three is that will that be part of the radcast today giveaways here i can neither confirm nor deny all right i'm with them i asked i can tell my kids i asked yes patiently waiting like a kid on christmas eve uh absolutely not uh so how many different channels do you like how many different channels do you like? How many different like social media like profiles is there for the Lego brand?

I mean, is it as many as I would imagine? It's a good question. I can't remember the last count. I think you'll be surprised to learn that it is not that many. Okay. Right. So at a very basic level across Instagram, for example, we have, I'm going to guess seven or eight, not that many. Now, obviously they're regionalized, right? Well, sorry. So on

Instagram, no, seven or eight is probably fair. There's not that many. And that is by design, right? I think, and I know this by speaking to many other colleagues of mine at major similar sized brands or bigger, you know, they have upwards of 300 different social channels and it becomes immeasurable, right? Immeasurable and not manageable. And I think we have a very different approach to that, right? So for YouTube, for example, you example, we have a singular brand channel and maybe five or six sub-brand channels off of that.

And that is by design, right? It makes a whole series of number of things easier. Obviously that channel strategy will likely evolve and that's not ultimately my remit or my team's remit. But yes, we have a somewhat simplified channel strategy by design. That's smart. We work with a lot of brands where that has not come to fruition. And it's a nightmare of implementation and keeping things to the brand standards and every other notion.

So hats off to keeping that streamlined. What's like in your current position, what's success look like? Like what is what is what you know, what's the day to day charge? You know, it is. That's a really good question. charge you know it is that's a really good question and something that i just shared in a fairly large global internal meeting about uh the fact that you know traditional creative has a very different performance metric than digital creative right especially social creative you know very quickly maybe within a minute within seconds, whatever it is, whether a social post is going to perform well or not.

And that's based on benchmarking. So one of the things that I harp with my team is I get very upset when I hear things like, and this social post performed really well. Or it had 500,000 likes. Okay. Compared to what? What's that in comparison to? Is that up X percent on the last post? What's our benchmark?

So I talk about success benchmarking a lot. And yes, obviously, there isn't an apples to apples comparison. It's difficult certainly when you look at content being published for a high affinity audience versus a low affinity audience and organically speaking a high affinity audience is going to live on your social channels and engage in that content higher than a low affinity audience is but at a very basic level my creatives need to know very quickly what is good and what is bad right and benchmarks help to do that right so at a basic level we have um an engagement rate rate benchmark across

instagram and facebook for videos and across facebook and instagram for images and then a organic reach benchmark across videos and Facebook split by Facebook and Instagram, right? That's a very perverse, basic way of looking at it. Because as I said, it's the best quick litmus test without having a whole bunch of analysts, you know, data analysts looking into it of how we can determine what was good and what was bad. I love it.

The benchmarking, I preach that to my team. Vanity metrics drive me crazy. So you're preaching to the choir on this side. I think it does tee up, you know, something we talked about in, you know, kind of our pre-show outline. But I think in your role and maybe just your perspective

with all your experience, you know, we have a lot of discussions here with brands we work with, and I see it, especially in the coffers of LinkedIn and otherwise, this performance marketing versus brand. And, you know, performance marketing has become the, you know, buzzword. I joked in the posting recently, smart-ass feedback. We were so desperate for attribution marketing, we had to put the performance word on the front end of it. And the C-suite required an ROI on every dollar.

I feel like it's sapping a little bit of the creativity that comes with true branding. However, all of my biases aside, I would like to know, like, both in your role and just your general perspective on both of those. Yeah, it's a, organic social drove businesses and marketing, I think it's also been potentially a downfall, right? Because once the value of organic reach has been essentially declined or diminished, there too has the theoretical ROI of

what we do as marketers or as content creators. I think there's a number of variables at play, right? I think the industry as a whole is full of a lot of crap, potentially, right? And I think there's a lot of people selling the value in social in a way that gets people burned or in a way that sets up the honest ones of us for failure to some excess. So that's why I think, you know, and this comes back to my experience when I ran my own business you know,

when you're running, let's say you know, a Facebook page for a brand, this is not a hypothetical. This is real for a clothing brand, a high-end clothing brand for kids that was being paid and you were being paid by the founders of said brand out of their pocket every month to manage that presence. You better be sure that that presence delivers some element of value. Now, if you're not able to define what that value is in a way that makes them feel comfortable and happy with giving you X number of dollars a month, then they're not going to be, you know, your client for very long. And that client specifically, I won't use their name, but they were a client of

mine for three and a half years, right? And they were my longest retainer business that I had. And that was because every month, I delivered a report that defined the value of what I did. It's not just this post got you this many likes, or this post drove you this many likes. It was we drove this much traffic to your website, likes. It was, we drove this much traffic to your website and therefore potentially drove this much, you know, level of stick-to-itiveness, whatever it is that define. My point being is it's both, you've got to be very strict about what your objectives are and then ensuring that you are communicating those objectives very clearly. And it's so easy to water down those objectives by providing too much data or just not being super succinct with what you're trying to deliver. What do you think about, and you know, Lego, and I'm glad you brought up the other brands you've

worked on, you know, because Lego's in a unique position being the size that it is that, you know, you don't have to scream our legos are on sale you know versus a very cool brand video that's you know elevating the ecosystem or whatever but for other brands that don't have that it's what's kind of just crushing my soul a little bit is the rush the rush to the bottom of you know of price and features versus, you know, call me old school, but the, can you hear me now campaign or the, you know, or Jared at Subway before he became a pedophile, you know, like the campaign aspect, the brand aspect of marketing seems to be, again, maybe not for brands like Lego, but, you know, seems to be diminishing. I don't know if that's just.

Listen, if brand building was easy, everybody would do it, right? Brand building is a marathon, right? It's not a sprint. It takes time. It takes tests and learns. It takes failures to figure it out. Right. I think, again, to some extent, you know, the the the social media world and the influencers behind successful brands in some cases have ruined this for the rest of us because they've made it super successful because they they became a viral sensation you know and i literally just came out of my meeting before this was talking about the tiktok um ocean spray example and how you know all of a sudden we've got this you know how do i go viral moment picking up again right everyone wants their you know super bowl oreo moment um which is great i totally get get it. Of course, I want to be behind one of you want to be behind one of those moments. Absolutely. But that isn't a strategy, right? That's an unattainable strategy. It's the process and having the process and the team behind that and the strategy behind that that enables a moment like that. But yeah, it's a tough one.

What's been that you could talk about, you know, maybe your most exciting project at Lego or something you're most proud of? I mean, listen, at the end of the day, working, you know, the eight-year-old version of myself does not appreciate the job that I have, right? I was that kid that was obsessed with playing with Lego for hours upon hours. I had one of those popcorn, those cans of popcorn you used to get. I used to get them for Christmas. They were like corporate gifts.

They were split into like cheddar popcorn, caramel popcorn, and salt popcorn. cheddar popcorn, caramel popcorn, and salt popcorn. I very quickly threw that popcorn out and made those like big barrels of, um, of Lego set of Legos, Lego pieces. Right. Um, and as I, you know, I used to use that ping pong table to, to, to build Lego. So I think for me, um, you know, being a part of a brand that probably defines purpose-driven, uh, branding is the best part about working for Lego. I think a project most recently that I'm really proud of is, you know, how we really leaned into, um, supporting families stuck at home during COVID, which was let's build together. Um, and it was all about the premise that, you know, everyone's routines were, you know, completely messed up. Um, you know, kids weren't, didn't

have routines. Um, people were stuck at home with little to do. So, you know, maybe pause from Netflix a little bit and, you know, start building with Lego. And there was a whole bunch of sort of engagement supportive, relative content, um, to help people pass the time. I love it and it's so relevant with COVID and everything else which leads me a little bit towards again I know you're in a leadership position talk about your leadership style and you know your growth in that area and kind of navigating maybe as relevant as it is COVID, but how you've been navigating leadership through COVID and just in general, you know, talk a little bit about that. Sure. So in general, I am a pretty straight shooter. I'm super transparent. And, you know, you know, maybe you could, you could spin that in an

interview related term as I'm very authentic. Um, right. But, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's, um, a value because once you, if you report it to me or you work with me, you, you understand what I'm trying to say and I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to get to another point without being very direct. I don't, you know, I, I see, obviously I'm sensitive to, you know, you know, giving, you know, the right type of feedback in the right sort of way. But I do think that's at least a unique element to my leadership style. I think, you know know as any leaders that uh are dealing with um what we're dealing with um it's what right i'm just gonna

i'm gonna raise my hand right now and say like you know and i i am transparent with my team about this right i've got three kids under three. I have literally had like two hours of sleep, jumped on a four o'clock in the morning meeting for a massive campaign and, you know, been fried and absolutely melted, melted down. Um, but you know, I think it's about being honest with yourself and making sure that you're checking in with everyone. Right. So we do everything from, um, I have daily, uh, like coffee hours or office hours. Um, anyone from my team can join in. Um, I'm not there every day, but it just gives an opportunity to see someone's face and maybe not talk

about work. We try not to talk about work, never really talk about podcasts or TV or food. Um, yeah, I think it's about also being creative, right? So, you know, I think the thing that I've struggled with is creative inspiration to some extent. I mean, I'm stuck in these four walls every day. Um, and you know, I'm lucky that I have a dedicated office space in my house, right? I think back to being in New York City in my apartment where my desk was in my bedroom and my desk drawers were full of underwear and socks because I didn't have closet space, right? But not everyone

has the same setup as I do from a home office, right? So it's checking in with people and making sure that, you know, they are doing okay. I think it's humanizing leadership a little bit more so than you ever would before. We've done everything from like get lunch socially distanced in the parking lot of our office. It was closed when it wasn't cold. To we're renting out a movie theater because you can do that now um for like operands of no more than 20 people um and you can watch a classic movie so i think

we're going to watch jurassic park as a team in a whole movie theater that's certainly one of the things i hate about covid is i can't go to the movies i used to love going to movies but so, yeah, I think there's a number of things where you've just got to break it up, right? It's a burn, right? It's a slow, slow burn. And I think certainly as we get into this, I don't want to call it a second spike of COVID, but the wintertime, I think it's going to become an issue again. So I think it's just staying become an issue again. So I think it's just being very, staying very close to everyone individually. You talked about it a little bit, you know, creative inspiration is,

you know, where do you get yours? Or, you know, you answered a little bit, but are there brands that you, you know, keep up with? I see Nike there, you know, a shameless quote for them, I guess, you know, but yes i see nike there uh you know it was quoted for them i guess you know but yes that's fine yeah no i think i i definitely like you know the i'm at the end of the day i'm a content consumer right yes i also work in the content generation business um but um you know

for better for worse i think it's for better. Um, you know, I watch probably an hour's worth of YouTube on my personal time every day. Um, now I'm not reading like the best of market. I'm not watching the best of marketing videos or stuff like that, but my brain again, for better, for worse, I think it's for better, can't help try and understand the process of how is that video being delivered to me, right? How is that algorithm serving that piece of content to me? Why is this content engaging to me? Why have I not turned it off yet? What video shows up next in that algorithm? All those components, what pre-roll happened? Was that a good piece of pre-roll?

Did I fast forward? That whole experience, again, for better or for worse, sort of inspires my day to day, right? Obviously, there's the destinations that I go to, the clear destinations I go to, like, you know, LinkedIn or Harvard Business Review or Ad Age for the hit you in your face type inspiration. But I think it's that passive inspiration that I take great value in because I, as a consumer, I'm consuming this content as not a professional, but as a consumer. And I think that's that sweet spot that I'm trying to understand in the work that we do. My wife hates me because I give her the,

I walk her through reverse the creative brief for every commercial that comes on. I tell her what, this is what consumers thought before. This is what they're trying to make them think. This is how they want them to think, feel and act. And here's the main idea. Like I literally do it. I see it it it's hard to take off the blinders of yes of the job but it also makes me a smarter marketer kind of understanding that the same thing

like you said yeah i mean listen it's everything from right i listen to um a sports podcast. And for what it's worth, I get pained by podcast advertising. Sorry if you have advertising in your podcast. But I take great inspiration because this specific podcast has done what I believe is the right way of brand integration. And it has become an integrated part of their podcast. Right. And it's not that 15 second spot that they're reading off a piece of paper that is so clearly vapid and unengaged. Sorry again, for anyone that does this. Right. And, you know, it harkens back to, you know, the Samsung and Casey Neistat relationship, right.. That is influencer marketing done right.

I don't know the financials behind that relationship originally, but it wasn't an ad. It didn't become an ad. It became an integrated part of his content journey. And that is how I think the future of advertising should be addressed certainly in that sort of social influencer space. Totally agree. I know we kept you a little long, but I do want to ask you, is there anything that you're watching trends-wise? I know you've got the proliferation of TikTok and Reels and the short form video, like it's coming at us with a fire hose. I can only imagine the scale and scope you guys are dealing with. But anything you're seeing or wrapping your head around for 2021?

Not specifically. I mean, I think, listen, we're all waiting to see how the economy reacts to COVID. I think that's going to be a big one. Obviously, some sort of election might have something to do with that as well. You're fast enough. So I think that's definitely going to have a potential impact. I think, you know, right now, a lot of the social channels need probably to look at themselves in the mirror a little bit and figure that stuff out. Speaking from my personal perspective.

But no, I mean, I can't speak to specific trends. I think, you know, the pivot of the event marketing world is going to be really interesting, right? And how that evolves i don't think physical events you know comic-con south by southwest are going to happen next year so that's two years without you know marquee moments in you know event marketing um and i'm not sure anyone's really figured out the solve for that. And I, I think honestly, there isn't a solve for that, but, um, there's going to be a need. There's going to need to be a reallocation of that money somewhere.

Um, but for what it's worth, TikTok is the most fascinating platform of all time. I still don't think brands have really figured it out, right. From my consumer experience of TikTok, the brand integration is obviously very influencer heavy. But even from an algorithm standpoint, if I'm scrolling through, I'm going to say I've seen three pieces of branded content produced from a brand by a brand on TikTok.

So I think there's a long ways to go for brands to figure out their, their space to play. But the recent, I think it was today, the partnership with Spotify is going to have some pretty massive implications. Yeah, of course. That marriage of music and video. And you know, you're, you're a hundred percent right. The it uh it's i hate this i would never see this normally but i think right now the best integration is if you just let the influencer do what they would normally do and then they just have a lego t-shirt on her and i like like right now like is is basic

as i would never say that about anything else typically but when you get them into doing unnatural things as as much as everything about tiktok is somewhat unnatural uh but but it's natural to that platform anything that's just not organic and real comes off so uh i don't know just played up you know yeah and listen it's it's uh it's a fast listen it's a fascinating fascinating social, it's a fascinating, fascinating social experiment. You know, as it's a lot of influencer marketing to be, to be frank, but, you know, they're no joke. They're there. The data behind that platform is super impressive. You know,

I think the other part, the other, you know, trends, maybe I, I think I'm sad to see evolve. You know, I think podcasts are being hit pretty hard just because of the evolution of people's commutes right and the impact that it has on podcast consumption um you know but they were having quite the the wave right pre-covid so i'm excited for that and you know it was resulting in really really great content right so i'm excited i mean as is everyone i'm a little excited to bring back some normalcy to our routines that then bring some normalcy into marketing. Yeah. As a podcast host, I, uh, I, I totally agree with that last one, but what we've seen, what's interesting is our, um, our subscribers have gotten more loyal, our subscribers have gotten more loyal.

Sure. But the growth of the subscribers has slowed a bit. Yeah. You know, so, and I think it's, you know, we will at least chalk it up to the, the natural disasters of what's happening,

you know, and then the wonderfulness of the content. I hope I helped with that. Exactly. The death of the commute is a real thing, right? Like, you know, once commute, I used to spend a little over two hours every day commuting, right?

And that wasn't, that was a content consumption moment, right? Yes, I was driving and no, I wasn't looking at YouTube, but I was, you know, I was listening to podcasts on that time and that time I haven't gotten back. I wish I could have it back. Right. I'm sure. Especially with all the three kids. And I think, you know, you've inspired me. We were thinking about this anyway, but I think our,

we're going to do the definitive podcast on the state of TikTok soon. So we'll send you a link, you know, and maybe use some quotes and differences in this episode. But James, just a pleasure. Really appreciate your time. We'd love to stay in touch with you. I follow you on LinkedIn. Let's stay in touch and maybe do a follow-up here in the next months and hopefully with a rebound in the world. But best of luck with those three little ones.

Thank you. We'll talk to you real soon. How can everyone keep up with you, though? Let's tell everybody how to keep up with you. You can reach out to me uh across socials at jlw greg so that's uh linkedin instagram and twitter jlw greg yeah thanks for the invite appreciate uh the time and uh yeah i guess stay safe with the the sign off these days exactly Exactly. All right, guys,

that's the episode for a radcast. We'll see you next time. Yo guys, what's up? Ryan Alford here. Thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate it. But do us a favor.

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