Right About Now with Ryan Alford - OmniChat - unlocking the incredible power of social media messaging automation with Larry Kim

Episode Date: June 1, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode on The Radcast! Get ready for the entrepreneur, weekly columnist for Inc. Magazine, and founder of companies - MobileMonkey and WordStream Inc, Larry Kim!In this episode on The Radcast, host Ryan Alford talks with guest Larry Kim about the ways to solve communication problems, and Larry shares why branding may actually be the #1 performance marketing tactic in 2021. They also dissect digital communication channels, their benefits, and the evolution of DMing.To learn more about Mobile Monkey, follow Larry Kim on LinkedIn and Instagram @kim_larry or by visiting https://mobilemonkey.com/If you enjoyed this episode of The Radcast, let us know by visiting our website www.theradcast.com or leave us a review on Apple Podcast. Be sure to keep up with all that’s radical from @ryanalford @radical_results @the.rad.cast If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. 

It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now? Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. Hey guys, what's up? This is Ryan Alford.

Welcome to another edition of the Radcast. We've got a rad founder today. Mobile Monkey, you may have heard of it. I've heard of it because I'm trying to get my damn Instagram messaging figured out. He's also the founder of WordStream. Larry Kim, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Great to be here. Cool, man. Well, I mean, I'm not going to turn this into, I know you've got people that can help me through customer service, but I've got to get my Instagram automation. I got approved.

I'm going through it. We're going to get to some of the functions of MobileMonkey, but is it going to be a lifesaver for me? Am I going to love it as much as I think I will? I think that Instagram is an incredible platform for getting your content in front of people. for getting your content in front of people. But I think it's an incredibly terrible platform for turning that engagement into leads or traffic to your website. And what's so interesting about this new Instagram

direct messaging automation that you're talking about here is that it's for the first time in over a decade, Instagram is allowing creators to tap into all that exposure that they're providing you and being able to turn that into leads or traffic to your, to your businesses, uh, to, to grow them. And so, uh, from that perspective, um, you know, other than Instagram ads, uh, there, there really isn't any other, uh, you any other way to do that. This is still technically an organic thing like this direct messaging automation.

It's not a paid thing. So I think it is a game changer. I think you can start weaving calls to action in the content that you're producing to be more deliberate to asking users to interact with you through the DMs. And then in the DM automations, you can then drive them to the links, capture emails, do whatever the heck you want to do there.

Yeah, it's been the biggest pain for me. I own an agency and I'm in the B2B space, but most of my personal branding has grown through LinkedIn the last seven years. And it's been a blessing and a curse because it's not an easy transition exactly, as you said, into leads for B2B just by simply the interface and everything else. So I think it's going to be a game changer. And I want to come back to that. I do want to give for our audience, at least, and I know you do a lot with Clubhouse. I've seen you there, obviously, and really appreciate you coming on.

I know you're a busy man and do a lot of podcasts. And people have probably heard of you or heard of Modal Monkey. I definitely have been on the platform for a while and sing its praises to a lot of our clients and otherwise. have been on the platform for a while and sing its praises to a lot of our clients and otherwise, but maybe give everyone that, you know, CliffsNotes version of kind of your background and everything you've done. I know you've done a lot. Sure. I'm a tech entrepreneur. I build marketing software companies. So my first company was WordStream and that is actually the world's largest pay-per-click advertising software company in the world, managing over a billion dollars of ad spend for tens of thousands of customers globally.

And I had the great adventure of starting that from literally nothing and growing that to hundreds and hundreds of employees and eventually selling it. It did over $75 million in revenue the year before last and sold that business back in 2018 to Gannett, that's like the USA Today company, for $150 million and that was awesome. Yes, please. Sign that check. Did you cash it or did you just put it in the bank? No, it's all wire transfers. Those big checks are only for lotteries.

Oh, okay. I didn't know if they brought you a big one. Larry Kim, luckiest man in the world or smartest man in the world. $150 million just for you, just for playing the word stream game. Yeah. You know, and when you do something like that, it's like. Look, part of you are wondering if that's was luck, like you just said, luckiest man or smartest man is what you said. And so kind of as a dare to myself i started another company uh to see if it was possible to you know replicate the success uh the company's called mole monkey it's in the messaging space so it's it's uh you know messaging tools for

omni chat omni chat meaning like well well you know how like there's all these different messaging platforms like facebook messenger sms instagram whatsapp website chat all these different platforms that marketers use to um you know communicate with their customers and there's new ones popping up every day like i don't know tiktok or or uh even even clubhouse is coming up with their own direct messaging api uh so it's just the idea here is MobileMonkey is just allowing you to access the messages from all of those messaging sources in one inbox. OK, and then providing automations to automatically answer and prioritize the different messages to come into your inbox. So it's just like a kind of a platform for messaging. just to come into your inbox. So it's just like a kind of a platform for messaging.

And the thing that I think you're interested in is just this new support for, you know, Instagram messaging and automation, which is kind of the new kid on the block because, you know, they've been around for, Instagram's been around for over a decade and their direct messaging capabilities is really crap. It sucks. But just going back to what you said earlier,

you were talking about how you do LinkedIn and it's valuable for business, from a business perspective. But can you imagine doing LinkedIn if they didn't have the in-mails and the ability to reach out to people in an easy way? How crappy that would be and how difficult it would be to actually,

you know, make do business on, like on, on the platform, like as a, as a business operator or an entrepreneur, it would be, it would be just like a vanity network with, well, it would be Instagram basically for, for, for, for business people who, who, you know, wouldn't be able to easily communicate and stuff like that. So it's just, this is a really exciting new development

for Instagram. And I just think that, so the thing that people need to understand is this is not for, it's not changing the Instagram interface that you use today. So the app experience that you have in terms of messaging will just be as crappy as it was before. OK, so nothing is changing there. That Instagram is allowing third-party tools developers like MobileMonkey the ability to access those messages and to process them and to send on your behalf through a third-party tools platform like MobileMonkey.

And so using that, we can now create automations just like we do for Messenger or SMS or sms or web chat but on but on instagram so that's that's what's changing a lot to unpack there i want to at least for our audience because of the success you've had you know and i know we could devote the entire episode to this but i do want to you know provide value you know to our audience around. You scaled WordStream to a gigantic company. You had $150 million sell to Gannett. You're building MobileMonkey. I don't know if you can speak to any of its growth and things like that, but I'd love to just, any of the pains, gains, suggestions of people out there scaling business and what has enabled you to what seems as though one definitive success and what looks like another home run happening with MobileMonkey. I mean, any tips or ways to condense that into some suggestions or just even the pains of it? I'd love to hear a little bit

more about it. Oh, so building these businesses is like very rewarding in the end. But while you're in it is the most frustrating experiences of your life. And I think what's helped me a lot is perspective. So my perspective on this company building and entrepreneurship is that you're usually wrong. Okay. Like, you know, most of the ideas and campaigns and initiatives that you, you bring to the table you know, maybe one or two or 3% of them will,

will actually work and be successful. And, you know, 95, 96, 97% of the time they'll go nowhere. Okay. And so you have to kind of view, you know, 95, 96, 97% of the time, they'll go nowhere. Okay. And so you have to kind of view, you know, all your failed initiatives from that lens of like, well, it wasn't realistic to kind of believe that you're going to be like a like a one like one campaign and done sort of thing it's like you have to try out so many different things you have to change so many different like angles and you know what are you building how are you marketing it you know who are you selling it to and and you know the idea that you're going to be correct uh you know on any one of those things you know initially is is like totally very implausible and sometimes you get these kind of crazy success stories where you know they crash their car into a gold mine and they don't really realize how lucky they were oh yeah i feel like twitter is one of those those examples where they have like crappy management, but they just crash the car into a gold mine and they don't realize how hard it is to come up with an idea like that.

So it's that perspective. And then once you have that perspective that, okay, well, most of the things aren't going to work and only a few things are actually going to work. Well, then it kind of forces you to think a little differently. So you have to be a little more skeptical about the time and effort that you're putting into different projects and initiatives, knowing that it's likely not going to work, Right. So one of the challenges I find, one of the foibles of people who are less successful is that they overcommit to futile endeavors. So meaning like maybe they're engaging in some marketing tactic, which is, you know, it's not hurting the company, but it isn't really helping the company. OK, and they might continue to pursue that, you know, campaign. This is an example. They might continue to do that, that work, you know, regardless of whether or not it's making a meaningful impact on the underlying business. regardless of whether or not it's making a meaningful impact on the underlying business. So like if you if you have the perspective of being very suspicious of of the of the value of the, you know,

different company initiatives that you're bringing to fruition, then one of the side effects, the positive side effects is that I have a tendency to kill what I call the donkey projects, the projects that just suck up a lot of time and energy and, you know, really don't move the ball forward at all. And conversely, it kind of focuses your attention on sort of the few initiatives that really do, you know, move the ball forward. If I'm thinking about my last business, WordStream, there's really just one or two campaigns that really made a difference in terms of making the company the company that it was. And the rest of the features and functions and marketing campaigns and sales campaigns and support campaigns that we did over a 10 year period, you know,

it was just noise. So, so it's just being able to, you know, find the leverage, kill, kill the donkeys and, and, and, and the perspective that most of the stuff that you try is unlikely to be the winning idea, if that makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. And I followed your marketing approaches, this unicorn versus donkey, and I see you applying it to real world life as well with your businesses. So it seems to transcend not only campaigns, but also potentially broader things within the company, if I'm hearing you correctly. Just take any company, okay? Like, or any, think about like anything, like your life.

Like, you know, it's a lot of, like, every minute is the same, you know, like in terms of time, but certain moments, you know, are much more valuable and impactful than other moments. You know, it's the same thing with the companies, you know, like a company like Amazon, they're really just known for, you know, three or four bets. Yeah, right. Like Prime and AWS and, you know, the Kindle. Like there's a few really killer unicorns that they discovered. And, you know, the rest is just sort of the marketplace, the seller marketplace. Kindle. There's a few really killer unicorns that they discovered.

And the rest is just sort of the marketplace, the seller marketplace. And the rest is sort of, eh. I think they detour quickly off of those seams, behind the scenes. Exactly. I feel like they're practicing this kind of mentality of, you know, trying a lot of interesting ideas, but failing and finding the leveraged ideas. Let me ask you this. I've been curious. I grew up. I've been in the ad game for 20 years. I worked in Manhattan, large accounts, Verizon, the NFL, huge accounts. Now we work with small to medium businesses for the most part. But I kind of grew up in this brand era, big brands, branding.

And I think of you, and I know you don't market yourself this, I'm not going to say that you are, but I think of you as a performance marketer in some way or a more, with all your testing and multiple variables, you're a true digital marketer, like you're a scientist in a lot of ways. At least that's my, what I see from you and your content and reading and all those things. And I do, I always want to ask people like you, how you feel about branding, you know, building brand versus what is driving a sale today. ROI, baby, ROI, ROI, you know, like, a sale today. ROI, baby. ROI. ROI. Do you discern those things? Is branding just a waste of time to you? Overtime activity? I'm always curious when I talk to someone that's so down the path of science and metric and all those things.

science and metric and all those things? So, uh, great question. I think my thinking on this has evolved tremendously, uh, since, you know, starting out,

uh, I, today, my opinion is that there's nothing more important than your brand. Okay. That it is the, you know, it is a all growth hacky,

you know, ROI experiments is totally meaningless. And all that really matters is, is experiments is totally meaningless. And all that really matters is the brand. And this has become more and more important over the last five or six years, because it used to be that those were two different worlds, that there was a branding world and a digital marketing world. And you could do well in one area without having a strong brand. You could do all the digital kind of growth marketing without a strong brand. In fact, that was what was so exciting about it. Like you could you know you know those crappy seo tricks and you

know and then and suddenly you would outrank the new york times and you'd be you know like ehow was outranking like you know these really authoritative websites even though no one even really knew who was the creator of this content on ehow uh and you know that's seo or you know email marketing like like online advertising all this stuff would go direct to consumer. And it didn't really matter what the brand was. It was as long as you got there first. is that all of those algorithms have now been fully augmented with machine learning, artificial intelligence, which now takes into consideration consumer preferences. So, I don't know, take search engine optimization, for example.

Do you know what the most discriminating factor is in terms of whether or not someone is going to click on your link or not? Awareness? I don't know. We did tests. We ran ad tests to remarketing audiences versus to vanilla audiences, like people who had not heard of your brand versus people who had heard of your brand. And people were disproportionately three, four or five times more likely to click on your links if they had heard of you before in the past. Okay. So that's a sign of brand affinity, you know, brand experience, brand awareness. So I think what I'm trying to say is, So I think what I'm trying to say is it's very hard in 2021 to be running digital advertising campaigns or SEO campaigns or social media campaigns where the success of those campaigns are based on user engagement scores like click- rates, when the single greatest prognosticator of whether or not someone will click and engage with that content or that ad is if they've heard of you in the past. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, if there's one thing that you could do

that would instantaneously improve the performance of all of your digital marketing campaigns, whether it was SEO organic, paid AdWords, organic social, paid social, even email marketing. The visibility of your emails, whether or not it gets displayed to you in your inbox or in your spam filter, that's all machine learning. whether or not it gets displayed to you in your inbox or in your spam filter that's all machine learning it's like it's whether or not you've engaged with that email in the past okay so the single biggest thing that would help all your campaigns is to have a strong brand uh because then that would dramatically increase people's propensity to further engage with with those campaigns which would then be recognized by those uh visibility algorithms that dictate whether or not people

will see the stuff that you're producing or not uh which you know also has this additional interesting impact which it then it then says well if if if Larry engaged with this thing, it's got to be good. So let's show this content to all of Larry's friends. So the only way you can do this right, like the biggest brand, the biggest hack, the biggest growth hack in 2021 for direct response marketing is to grow your brand.

Are you following me here? Oh, I'm following you. If I had, and we're going to be installing a soundboard and I'm going to have, you probably didn't know much about Southern Baptist Church, but they have, amen, hallelujah. The deacons in the choir, when the pastor would get in the pulpit and say something really amazing, the deacons would go, Hallelujah, from the back. And as a longtime brand marketer, nothing is more golden to my ears or to what I've been preaching for 20 years. years uh and uh and now having someone is an authority like yourself saying that the biggest growth hack in 2021 is branding goes down in the uh the radcast hall of fame whatever that's worth it might be a t-shirt and a coffee mug but you know it's something you know i did this weird experiment the other day where i artificially uh create created a enormous influx of people searching for my brand

okay so like i i can't tell you how but i the experiment was to get real people, not bots, many, many, many thousands of real people around the world to conduct searches for the word mobile monkey, which is my company. And that increased the volume of searches for that term. So here's the crazy part. kind of the volume of searches for that term. Okay. Okay. So here's the crazy part. That increased my SEO traffic for non-branded terms. Okay. Because it was a signal to Google that this must be a brand site.

Okay. Because so many people are searching for that query, like that branded term. Okay. Uh, because so many people are searching for that query, like that branded term. Okay. So, so this is, this must be the, this must be like the New York times of the messaging space as opposed to the e how of the messaging space. You see what I'm saying? Oh yeah. Um, so it's just crazy little examples like that where build your brand, you'll build your direct professional smart. I love it. Let's talk back now, getting back into MobileMonkey more.

I know it's your baby, so you probably don't mind talking about it a little bit. And through the lens of, I feel like the messaging space, particularly SMS, definitely Instagram, which you guys are cracking the code on, is so underserved, underutilized, under magnified as the communication channel. I think people think of social media and the power of social media, content, your engagement on content. media and the power of social media content, your engagement on content. But the holy grail of it all is the communication flow with customers and prospects and all those things that messaging, that direct communication enables. Talk about how much or how underserved you feel like particularly SMS and other channels are. underserved you feel like particularly you know sms and and other channels are well first of all i would estimate that only single digit you know five five six seven percent of companies

even do any form of uh you know messaging in terms of a core marketing channel. So like if you compare messaging with email marketing, which is kind of the opposite end of the spectrum where everyone does it, or content marketing, which I feel is also pretty well represented. Messaging, on the other hand, is still in its infancy. And you need to understand why on earth would that be the case if people spend so much time on their mobile devices, so much time in WhatsApp and Instagram and Messenger, more so than social media? And I think the answer is because it's just a pain in the ass like it's just imagine if I told you

guys we need to have a website a mobile website and now we also have to have a kind of a messenger experience an Instagram experience a web chat experience an SMS experience well of light and and so on it's on it so it's just so much fragmentation, okay, with these different channels. They're all very, very important. It's not like advertising on Bing, which was sort of like a check the box kind of thing. Like, these are bona fide, like real messaging channels that are used by gazillions, okay, like literally billions of people. And it's just hard for marketers to to to cover all those bases. And so what I think MobileMonkey does, which is so interesting as a platform, is that it kind of disintermediates the underlying chat platform.

So it just provides a messaging interface and you can talk in an automated or manual way with your customers, whether it be on SMS or web chat or WhatsApp or Instagram or Facebook Messenger. And we keep adding more communication platforms, hopefully several more like over the next few quarters. Do you think we've reached this point? The text message inbox was kind of like this sacred cow, I feel like, five, ten years ago. People just didn't want anyone touching it other than who you texted with. It was very different than the email inbox, right? It was very much more personal thought of. I feel like we've started to cross into this threshold, or maybe we've broken right through it, that there's more acceptance from consumers now with brands and with that communication approach through the text message inbox is that safe to say i think overwhelmingly uh people would love to hear from the brands and individuals that they

care about uh and conversely they really get these very emotional reactions to receiving content information from the brands and people they don't know or don't care about. Hence, going back to our original growth hack of the century, of the decade, which was to build brand affinity. So there's plenty of evidence to suggest that this is true because, open rates on these things are remarkably high, an order of magnitude higher than email engagement. And so if people really hated it so much, why are they opening it? And you could say, well, maybe it's because we're tricking them.

say well maybe it's because we're tricking them maybe it's because we're tricking them by triggering a notification on their phone and and they need to know they've been trained to to uh to um you know check those notifications uh but then i would just say well then why are the subsequent uh engagement rates like click-through rate and um read rate so high, like also an order of magnitude higher than email marketing. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think people are open to receiving messages through texting or through the various messaging platforms with the caveat that provided that it's from the businesses and individuals that people care about. And so from that perspective, I would not be looking to develop a top of funnel kind of, you know, awareness campaign on the backs of SMS or Instagram marketing.

Like this is more of a lower funnel kind of like conversion greasing type of communication channel that is substantially more effective than anything else out there. How are you building brand for MobileMonkey? I know you said the test you did that you can't share exactly how you did it, but how do you think about branding for, or for Larry Kim for that matter? I know you're getting more engaged. It seems like with some of your DM tests and things like that, maybe that's just by the nature of the business. But how do you go about thinking about building brand for MobileMonkey? You really have to. There's direct response marketing and there's this other field of brand marketing.

there's direct response marketing and then there's this other field of, of, of brand marketing. And, um, it's, it's just a different school. Uh, and, and it's, it's not an area that I necessarily consider myself to be an expert in. Um, but you know, we, we, we do bring in people to examine sort of how we're treating the brand and what we want to know, be known for, uh, and then, then amplifying those messaging through display ad campaigns, through social advertising campaigns, et cetera.

Would you ever consider mass media or have you? That's next. I mean, that's really the next logical space. that's really the next logical space. You know, in reality, these digital marketing platforms have become way too expensive for top of the funnel brand advertising. Like just if, you know, these cost per clicks on Facebook ads or Instagram ads or Google ads, they go up by, you know, double digit percentages every quarter. So if the economics of those ads haven't broken down for you yet, they will most certainly break down, you know, maybe a quarter from now, two quarters from now.

quarter from now, two quarters from now, it's just, uh, and, and if you can't get it to work on, I guess what I'm saying is we've come full circle. It used to be that, that I was so excited about these digital platforms because I could get my brand out there for nothing, like pennies. Okay. And it was so much more effective and targeted, uh of more traditional like radio or television or even like billboard or just conventional non-digital advertising. And that's been the case for the larger part of a decade. know over the last five six years that these costs have gotten so bananas that um you absolutely have to be considering uh you know these other radio and you know other types of of of uh satellite radio etc to like grant cardone is is advertising on cnbc on on you know like on sirius xm radio so you absolutely have to be considering these because it's like the economics for for uh trying to create new brand affinity among people who aren't who don't have pre-existing affinity with your brand through digital marketing is incredibly

futile. Yes. I got two letters for you. P and R. PR is the holy grail in 2021. I know you're doing some of that with your Inc. magazine, writing other things, coming on this podcast in a way. But I think that is the kind of, I'm not ready to say that TV is coming back alive because it's changing so much. But connected TV and other sources. But I'll leave you with that. That's so interesting. So the way that WordStream got on the map. OK, it was I think 2011 or 2012.

It was one PR campaign. OK, seriously, the way that WordStream got on the map was one PR campaign. Okay. Seriously. The way that WordStream got on the map was one PR campaign. And that was around the time of the Facebook IPO in 2011. And you can Google this. Everyone was talking about it. The whole world was talking about the Facebook IPO. And I just published some data showing that, you know, these Facebook ads, they're kind of crappy. They were like ads at the time.

It was like your page. And I just compared the return on investment for like ads versus these other more powerful Google search ads that existed at the time. So it was kind of like a head to head matchup comparing these crappy Facebook ads, which have gotten a lot better with search ad technology at the time. And it just showed that Facebook was a joke. And that story, I published it three days before the Facebook IPO. It got something like eleven thousand press pickups so like you know just you can search for it's like it was on you know afp it was on reuters it was on you know cnn i i was on fox business i

was on uh npr bbc like just talking about like you know how these ads aren't that great uh and um that generated a total of six million links uh from from reputable sites to our website uh over the course of two weeks okay and then from there the strategy was just to monetize those links by publishing content um so you're absolutely right. So when you're thinking of what's the ultimate way to build your brand, it's PR. But as I said earlier, 99% of the stuff goes nowhere. Right. So it's these one in a million, one in a thousand kind of PR campaigns that really, really stick where you kind of just, you just are there at the right time at the right place with the right story.

All right. And those can really, really just change your fortunes forever. Yeah. If we wind down here, Larry, really appreciate your time, your insight uh a lot of nuggets here uh is there uh what's the future hold i know i you know i'm sure you've got a crystal ball behind you back there somewhere but uh what's uh where are we headed do we just we're growing mobile monkey we're adding new. We're taking it to new realms. We're going to sell it for $300 billion at some point or whatever.

What are we doing? Where do you want to be in 20 years? Where's Larry Kim? Are we going to ride to the sunset or are you just going to keep building things? Um, you know, it's, it's hard to say, uh, I can see on one hand a great future ahead for this company. And, um, you know, on one hand there's, there's a company called SEM rush, but, you know, they hustled for a decade and they just went public earlier this year. And it's like a multi-billion dollar business, okay. Publicly traded. And, and I think that would be a really interesting journey. On the other hand, I can also see that

this is a valuable piece of real estate in terms of just messaging functionality, which appears to have been forgotten by a lot of major marketing and sales platforms. We do get quite a few inquiries about partnership or acquisition. So that could also possibly happen. So you never really know.

I don't. I'm just happy doing what we're doing. I'm very excited for this Instagram stuff. And I'm just happy, happy doing what we're doing. I'm very excited for this Instagram stuff. And, and, uh, you know, I'm hoping that this can be like the,

like a, a really valuable communication platform for, for individuals and businesses that leverage that, uh, that platform for, um, for, for,

for getting their content out there. Where can everybody keep up with all things, Larry Kim and mobile monkey? So we, we do a lot of email marketing. We send out a lot of emails and newsletters, including, you know,

all the content that we produce that I produce. So I was just, you know, just going to the website and, and signing up for, for that newsletter, because it, we curate that. We don't send out emails for every one of the articles.

It's only the good stuff that's proven itself to do well. We publish stuff and see how it does, and then we round up the best stuff. That's one way. Look, I'm on all the different social media platforms and I have a messaging business. So all of the messaging channels are tied into my app and I get all the messages. So you can try messaging me through Messenger or Instagram. We'd be happy to chat. I can speak for him. I reached out to him on Instagram. He had his messenger set up and then he agreed to come on our podcast.

And I'm a fan of the platform. I'm excited about where it's going to go with Instagram, having the following that we have there. But I really appreciate all your insight and coming on today, Larry. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. Hey guys, you know where to keep up with us. We're at theradcast.com and at the.rad.cast on Instagram.

I'm at Ryan Alford on all the platforms, even on TikTok, baby. You can find me there and we'll see you next time on the Radcast. Yo guys, what's up? Ryan Alford here. Thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate it. But do us a favor. If you've been enjoying the Radcast, you, guys. What's up? Ryan Alford here. Thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate it.

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