Right About Now with Ryan Alford - Ryan talks with guest Steve Babcock, former Chief Creative Office at VaynerMedia

Episode Date: May 26, 2020

On this Episode, Ryan chats with Stave Babcock, the founder of Made in House and former Chief Creative Officer at VaynerMedia. Steve shares his creative journey from days at Crispin Porter and Bogusky to his time at Vayner. Steve is very transparent about the realities of working with Gary V and the challenges and importance of elevating creative in today's landscape. From developing the Pizza Tracker for Dominos to empowering his teams to do their best work Steve is a great interview and provides a ton of insights and value. Links from this Episode: https://www.stevehappens.com/ Please share, review, and subscribe! The Radical Marketing Podcast is always looking for intriguing guests. Email inquiries to [e-mail] Follow us: @radical_results on Instagram @ryanalford on Instagram www.radical.company If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. 

Welcome to the Radical Marketing Podcast. Here is your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, welcome to the latest episode of the Radical Marketing Podcast. Pretty stoked for today. You know, we kind of come in and out of agency and marketing world, and I think this is about as straight line as it gets. But Steve Babcock, really excited to have you on today's episode. Awesome. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Yeah. So Steve is the current and the founder and, you know, no, you're not a title guy of Maiden House and the former chief creative officer of VaynerMedia, spent time at CPB, some of the who's who's and agency world, you know but uh all around creative dude is that is that uh is that fair fair to say or i think that's probably the more accurate title just or maybe even just all around dude dude yeah more dude than anything else uh cool man really excited to have you on and you know we've been you know talking the last you know a couple months just here and there but excited to kind of tell in here you know our guys are an audience to hear some of your story and background especially for both people we we have a lot of people you know the agency people maybe in the southeast or you know a little more regionally based and

you know they know uh the VaynerMedia name and Gary Vee and stuff, but I think hearing the, you know, the, the width and depth of your experience and, you know, kind of just some of your perspectives on where the market was headed, you know, it's like pre COVID and post COVID. So I definitely want to get some of your takes on that. You know, I don't, I don't know that it's changed definitively. Marketing is marketing, Branding is branding. I think we both have a love for content and branded content. We'll talk about that. But, you know, I do want to get your perspective because it's kind of a crazy world out there, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, cool, Steve. I'd love for, you know, let's just start,'s just start right down the path. I'd love for people just to give your history and background in the agency world and marketing and maybe just some of your general philosophies, but maybe just that history timeline and some of the campaigns you've worked on. Just tee up that for everyone. for everyone sure yeah i um well i i grew up i was born and raised in a in a one stoplight town in southern idaho um which a lot of people think wait iowa no idaho the second ad mecca of the world yeah yeah uh so i grew up there um and kind of my whole life and and you know during my childhood was very interested kind of oddly enough in like film I was the youngest of five kids and we would make like home movies like super eight home movies like in the 80s and VHS and I was really into

like editing and things like that at a at a young age like this is back when you're editing with like two VCRs and I know half of your listeners are like what is a vcr just google it but but i was always into that i was always into music uh art and design and those things but i had no idea really in that area that like advertising was a job in my mind i was like i'm gonna be a director i'm gonna go make movies steven spielberg you know and um and so i went to school at the University of Utah, and just kind of down the road is like the closest university. I was also to be fair, a pretty avid snowboarder. So that really influenced I was like, I'm going to go there and just snowboard and, and I'll go to like the film department. And while I was in school,

a friend, I needed a job, kind of like a part-time job. And a friend knew somebody who worked at the time as the largest agency in that area. It was called DSW Partners. And they were famous for making the Intel inside, the little doo-doo-doo-doo. It was, at the time, it was like a big agency. And I remember I got an interview and I walked in there and I was just like blown away because it was like you know the the walls were all painted groovy colors and people were dressed in like flip-flop you know I'd never I don't know I was like this is a job and anyway I got the job and it was a to work in what was called the business center it's like the mail room and I did all the odd jobs it was kind of like everything guy and it was

great job because it allowed me it was very flexible you know I could go to my classes I come back but what was really cool is it really introduced me to advertising and and when you when you're the mail person and you're sorting and delivering everyone's mail you get to know and back in the day this is kind of pre-email you get to know everything about everybody based on their subscriptions and the things that they get. I realized like, wow, this creative department was really cool because this agency kind of, everybody sat in their department. I'm like, this is amazing. I love these people. And I befriended them. And kind of long story short there is that agency ended up having a scholarship contest for

all students in Utah and you could submit a portfolio and because I wasn't a I was just a part-time employee I was eligible so I befriended an art director there who let me use his computer at night so I just kind of taught myself photoshop for and put to put together a portfolio of just horrible fake ads and I ended up winning the contest. And then they gave me a job as a junior copywriter, which I was surprised by because I thought I was trying to be an art director or a designer, but I just went with it. And that's how I got into – so I also –

they let me finish school and et cetera. But I was all of a sudden, I'm like, I guess I'm in this industry. And I liked it, and I just kind of kept going. And so I was in the Utah market, finished school, got married. I was also in a band. And so that was sort of pulling me both ways. But eventually, as does happen, the band dreams kind of died and that's when we said well let's take this a little more seriously we moved out to Colorado where I was in Colorado for 10 years and I worked at Crispin Portabagaski and when I left Crispin Portabagaski I was one of the two executive creative directors there and then I took a really fun opportunity of an agency out of San Francisco had reached out. They needed a creative leader, but they also were interested in building a second office in Boulder in Colorado. So I was like, this is cool. I get to kind of do a startup thing, but with training wheels.

So that was really, really fun. Very different going from this Mecca of Crispin where there's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people to all of a sudden, I'm going to Target to get the toilet paper for the office. But it was really fun to learn how to grow an office from pretty much nobody to around 30 to 40 people. And then I got a call from this guy in New York who I'd never heard of named Gary. And I didn't know the agency or

anything about it and again this was this was maybe it's probably five and a half years ago now or I can't remember but in 14 15 yeah it's 2015 yeah and summer of 2015 and we you know my initial reaction was no thanks like New York's not for me I don't know who you are. VaynerMedia doesn't sound, it just wasn't on my radar. Didn't sound like something that I was interested in doing. And we spoke for about six or seven months. And, you know, Gary's the best salesman I've ever met.

And the proof of that is all of a sudden my family and I are packing up and moving to New York. of a sudden my family and I are packing up and moving to New York. And so I took that job, that opportunity, which was really a fun challenge to be the first chief creative officer of VaynerMedia. And when I walked into those doors, it was really, I was very taken aback because it just wasn't, it didn't look or feel like anything I'd ever experienced. It was, it was chaos. I always would call it like a pleasant Lord of the flies because it was nice, but it was just as chaotic as possible. And I got excited. Eventually I turned a corner of my mind because at first I was like, no thanks. But then I got excited about like, I want to fix this operationally.

This is, there's a lot of good stuff here. There's a lot of good philosophy. And, and so I did that for about four years and and then where I am now is one year in the books of my own business made in-house which is a in-house consultancy working with brands directly to help them build their in-house agencies. Great. So a lot to kind of dig into there. I mean, so at CPB, you were there for about six years. Is that right? Yeah. What were maybe some of the more memorable campaigns or work that you worked on there? I mean, is there a person pretty big, they have some pretty household names under their roster.

I mean, is there a person pretty big? I mean, they have some pretty household names under their roster. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was, I mean, Crispin was, especially at the time, was you were pumping out so much volume. We were just, you know, it had a little bit of a reputation for being this like crazy sweatshop. And it wasn't in that like no one was forcing

you you were just we did kind of did it to ourselves like your offices had futons in it like you were sleeping there overnight you were just because there was so much opportunity whether it was Burger King or Volkswagen uh you know I I at an early time there was given the pitch for dominoes so i won that uh account and did a lot of the early work on dominoes uh the thing that i think i'm most famous for is the pizza tracker yeah dominoes which uh was is something that i i would reference a lot i don't know if it's my favorite i mean you just made so much stuff there. I can't even remember everything, but the pizza tracker, for example, I will reference a lot because I like that. It was a solution to a problem that wasn't an ad.

Yeah. Domino's really came to us. This was kind of when online ordering wasn't the thing. And that was the assignment was like, how do we get to come up with a campaign to get more people to order online there's a variety of reasons why ordering online is good for dominoes the ticket price is higher there's lower margin of error they don't have to pay for somebody to answer the phone there's a lot of good reasons for it and typically what people would do is and i remember that's what my boss at the time said, was like, come up with something.

Just don't do like dollar off ordering online. Like don't try to come up with something that isn't giving it away for free, which is something that most people would do because they thought, well, if I can get you to just try it once, then maybe you'll get interested in the idea of doing it online. So anyway, I simultaneously to work on Dominoes or at least as a the leadership team you have to go to pizza school that's maybe i don't know if they still do it but yeah it was like a week-long training to be like a manager and i learned that the whole system was attached

to a uh like every dominoes literally has a physical button between each station because they're all kind of, it's all about speed and efficiency. And you as a local Domino's store, you get as a manager, you get bonus based on that efficiency. So I'm like, wait a minute. At any given moment, I know when an order has been taken, I hit a button. I know when a pizza is being prepped, I hit a button. I know when it's in the oven, it takes six minutes. I hit a button. I know when it's, you have all this information. Yeah. Cool. Um, why don't we make a thing? And we also knew from an insights perspective that like when people ordered pizza or food and hung up the phone, they were kind of left with like, no, I don't, I don't know if it's just thinking of being an agency guy and coming up on the account and strategy side, I was in my planner head going,

you have a consumer that with online ordering, especially the netherworld that that goes into, and an insight is consumers are, they have no idea what is the stats, that control. They have no control. And you've, you've, you bring that to life, you know, you know, backing my way into this brief as you're talking. And so we, we originally said, well, let's just, this is perfect. You already have the information. Let's create a consumer facing, you know, dashboard at the moment. It was like this little pill looking thing. And it just had these sections and it just pulsed and told you where it was. And it just had these sections and it just pulsed and told you where it was. And again, it could tell you, you know, the name of the person doing the prep and the name of it told you the name of the delivery driver because all that information was in their system. So also you knew like, oh, Ron is coming. He's going to be here soon.

And just sort of knowing the name of the person is like helped you. And then originally it was exclusive for online orders. Now, I think if you call or whatever, you can use the pizza tracker no matter what. But that's what it was exclusive for online orders. Now I think if you call or whatever, you can use the pizza tracker no matter what, but that's what it was. So we came up with a tool that didn't cheapen the brand or, or, or create a discount. And,

and it did more than we didn't do like ads. It weren't like a TV ad or anything. It was just like that. And it worked really, really well. So I always, I like to reference that just because it reminds just like that and it worked really really well so I always I like to reference that just because it reminds me like focus on the problem like I think a lot of times

in our industry we jump so quickly to like what's the creative execution what's the creative what's the creative what's the creative and I'm like spend 80 percent of your time on the problem the business challenge the audience the do that. And then like 20% of your time on, cause it'll be there. It'll be like, Oh, here's the obvious solution. Um, so that, you know, that was, that was really, really fun. I worked, um, can we hire you to be a politician or a president or something too? You know, like, I think focus on the problem. That's probably the title of this podcast.

But it's like, it's so true in so many other things too, because we become so about everything else, you know? It was funny. One of my, Andrew Keller, who is the executive creative director right under Bogusky there, he said a thing to me once that I have, which is interesting. I remember I went into his office. I was mad about something or there was some issue. I think we had a campaign that was sold and then there was feedback.

And I went in there and I was expecting him to be like, I'll call him up and tell him, like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I remember expecting him to be like, I'll call him up and tell him like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I remember he didn't. And he said the one thing that is probably been the best advice I've ever had in my career. And he said, dude, he's like, the minute you learn to love solving problems is the minute you're going to learn that you love this job. Yeah. And as a creative person that just hit me really hard. That is the job. creative person that just hit me really hard like that is the job is like and so um and and and i think when i showed up at vayner media years later i was all of a sudden confronted surprisingly with

like a pretty big problem like it just was like i didn't this is insane like the department set up weird we don't even have strategy it was just so foreign to me yeah at that point like no no I want to solve this problem and and I think it's one of the reasons I started made in-house trust me every in-house agency is just a big problem no one has figured it out it's all over the place and I like to pop in and go this is fun this is fun to fix these things yeah well the whole in-house thing is you know know, brands think they can cherry pick. I can get, I can hire a writer, a graphic designer, a creative person, account person, and we solved it.

You know, I know, you know, there's methods of madness, but I do, you know, transitioning to the VaynerMedia thing. It's always been fascinating, you know, working in a New York agency, you know, working at other agencies, now owning an agency. You know, Gary has the anti-agency vibe. He's the anti-New York agency. And I'm like, you know, you hire 800 people and they all work in New York. You very much are a New York agency. I don't care what you call it or what you say. There's just a way that things become when you start hiring people that have worked at a million other agencies. So I don't know how, I know he has culture and I'm not knocking that at all.

I'm just more talking philosophically about, you know, the anti-agency theme, but it sounds like you may have brought some of that anarchy, you know, because again, you got to be operational, you know, again you got to be operational you know it's one thing to move fast uh but it's a whole nother thing to operationally solve problems and get things done well i do think like yeah it's uh i mean it definitely is it's it's it's a big agency based in new york you know, but I think like, you know, that's also an interesting thing where, um, cause that's something I never really, you know,

that was kind of his narrative. My narrative is very less like, it's like everything, everybody has potential to be great. Like I don't, I don't need to like, but that's, you know, I'm not a CEO that I don't own the company. And I think that was a lot of what he did was like, hey, I'm going to kind of knock everything else down to to kind of build myself up. Because like that's you can't really just say, oh, big New York agency. It's like there's so many different colors in that statement. There's, you know i mean crispin

was a big not new york but they were big agencies 72 and sunny's a big agency droga widen's a big agency these are all great can there yeah i mean mccann's you know and it's like so i don't really know it's not that i think the thing where uh where gary I really, and kind of what sparked me eventually to say, okay, I'm on the same page with this guy. And so I'll move out to New York was not the agency or anything, but just the mindset. I don't think there's anything wrong with like business model or like the model or anything. It's the mindset. was very much like, I believe very much in making versus talking about stuff forever and focus grouping and getting a million people. And a lot of agencies located anywhere in the world, historically, have made their money by selling a service that requires a lot of FTEs,

full-time employees, to spend a lot of time to make something that costs a lot of money because they mark, they get the mark upon that. That is the model. And that made so much sense back then coming to today's world where marketers need the exact opposite. They're like, I need a whole bunch of really awesome content. I need it yesterday and I need it for half the cost, but I still made it to be really, really good. That is maybe the difference. If, if, if, if I were to say we're, you know, at Vayner, the goal was like, we want to be that. And that does stand in a little bit of contrast to a quote unquote, big New York agency with an old model.

But, but the reality is, you know know and one of the things that that even everybody struggles with even if they know we struggle with is like how do we really do that how do you really make how do we get into a system that can produce the volume of quality for the cost that is required in a world where brands have a snapchat lens to a super bowl commercial and everything in between and that was that that was difficult to do and again i'm certainly not a cfo but i have a lot of empathy for the cfo there where it's like no we have to make money yeah i can't which again is why i like, let me see if I can make this work in house. But yeah, but also I think he's a salesman.

He's a motivational speaker. His tool is his mouth. He talks like he likes. He likes controversy. He likes saying stuff because everyone's stirred up. And so that's just kind of his that's his shtick. That's his that's stirred up. And so that's just kind of his, that's his shtick. That's his thing. How was, you know, how was the culture there?

I mean, you know, is it, was it everything he made it seem? I mean, I know no sales, you know, is, you know, the end product is, you never live up to, you know, some of the statements that are made or the salesmanship that happens but um it was how was the culture there you know because yeah it was good i mean it was you know i remember when i got there i was actually originally kind of shocked and i think maybe because this was the first time in my career where i was like i was the old person just because everybody felt so young

um i i do remember being like man I'm not used to this many feelings. Like it was, like at Crispin, it was just like, you just shut up and you do it. And if someone says this isn't right, do it again. You just went back. And it was, I was so, maybe I was so like in this like military, all of a sudden I came to a spot where I came in and said, hey, I don't think this is right. Let's try this and this and this.

And the reaction was like, no, you've hurt my feelings. I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this like go um so but i think the culture was fine my uh the biggest challenge for me was it wasn't a culture rooted in creativity it's a media company founded by a business guy um so it was a lot about just like efficiency and just making stuff. And I'm, I was charged with coming in and that was a little bit of this, the healthy struggle was like, no, no, no, no, no. This stuff matters. Like humans are emotional people. So the actual creative that we make needs to be able to connect with that emotion. But it just, it's not in there. So the culture is really sort of hustle, Gary Vee, entrepreneur, starting businesses, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah,

dah. And it was a challenge. I like a culture that's a little bit more celebratory of the product that we make. So for example, when you, when we would have like our town hall meetings or our all agency meetings, like it was the first agency where I had ever worked, where we didn't show creative work that we had done recently. And, and that was hard, you know, I don't know. I think it was, and I would always ask Gary, like, can we do that? Can we do that? And I think he, I just, you know, my, my sense is he wanted this. He's like, no, I'll have the microphone. This is the Gary V thing. This isn't the work. Yeah. And, and to me,

I was always like, you know, even working at places like Crispin where it's like Alex Bogusky at the time was like the Michael Jordan of advertising. Still just all about the work. He never even, he didn't like to speak. He didn't like to do any of that stuff. And so I was very used to that. So I started kind of having my own town halls that were just creative showcases. I was like, it's important for us. We're big enough. It's important for us to see the work, to celebrate the work, to see the work that we don't know that we even made because another team made it. I just, I believe that's a really healthy culture. It's around

the product that we make but it's I would say the culture is fine it was friendly it was friendly it was pretty big and but it but I prefer personally a culture that's more around like the product we make and I think that is what actually really unites and brings people together sometimes the culture at Vayner was difficult just because it was kind of the by-product of whatever Gary was saying that week. And so he'd be off on it. Now we're doing this and everyone's like scrambling and be like,

now we're that agency. He's like, now we're doing this. And we're like, now we're that agency. So sometimes it was a little challenging, but for the most part, it was like, I can't say it was like, at least during my time there, there was nothing like spec, like there was no like, ooh, that's the golden ticket of a culture. I was like, it was fine.

It was, you know, we talked about this a little bit pre-episode, you know. It's got to be a little tough because, look, everybody wants some credit, right? Sure. We're human beings, you know, and you strike me as not necessarily, a little bit I know about you. I think you take pride in the work, but you don't, it doesn't have to have Steve's name on it every time necessarily. I'm sensing that about you. Yeah. I'm sensing that about you.

But whether it's you or whether it's the fiefdom you had there, you know, the guys you're motivating, when it's all about one person, and look, he's super successful. I look up to him in certain ways. You know, I am not a hater. But it is always fascinating to me of wondering what can, how you have longevity there and self-motivation when it doesn't seem like anyone else gets the idea credit. And I guess you just have to be okay with that there because I'm sure, you know,

I hear things out of his mouth and I'm like, this guy's got more ideas than anybody I know. And I know that's natural, but whose mouth did this really come out of? You know, cause I've heard some things that he said that I've heard you say and I'm not again trying to create this divide it's more interest in you know how you keep more people motivated when you know the ideas seem to all credit one individual yeah I mean I think you know I think philosophically why you maybe have heard a lot of the things we've said similarly is because we, we do have, we agree there. I think I'll typically say them a little

bit differently, um, et cetera, but when it comes to like creative and, and things like that, you know, I mean, my philosophy as a, as a leader has always been to empower pretty much everybody else and to give that credit to everybody else because you know that that is like catnip to a cat you know they like they want that and they want to grow and do more of that and so um but i i do think it's it's a bit of a challenge um you know for if if and again i i really don't know what it's like to have 8 million followers on Instagram and to be stopped everywhere I go. And, and we would like everywhere we go, it's like, we're getting selfies for people shaking hands, like, you know, and, and I, to me, that actually, I mean, I think I'm quite kind and social, but I don't like that. I'd be like, I would start to get

noticed a little just like you, Steve, you know, just by association and i'd be like yep and i'm going to dinner see you later like i'm i don't get he loves that and that's why he's so good at it like he genuinely loves that there's no act it is him and he loves it i'm i'm more of an introvert i guess but i think when you are when your your whole, like livelihood is being in the spotlight, I mean, that is his thing. Like he's the one with the microphone. He's the one talking. He's under the, I think he just naturally sort of by default, you're not used to saying like, Oh, I'm going to give the spotlight to somebody else. I never felt like there was any, it was just weird. It was like,

you know, I, I, I, I find myself defending him a lot, you know, when people want to talk about him or whatever, because it's like, I found him to be one of the better kind of human beings that I've ever known. Like just, he has such a kind heart. He really does care. But I do think he gets in this moment where that grapples with the celebrityism and just sort of what you're used to so I don't find that if there's ever been a time where I'm like ah dude I think you should have given the credit to somebody else or I think this for this I've never found it like intentional or malicious it was just like yeah you just you kind of are in that zone where that's your brand and that's your vehicle. And you feel like you're the best sounding board to tell the world, hey, this is what we're doing and I'm doing it and I'm doing it and I'm doing it.

Because you feel like you have to put it all on your shoulders for it to be successful. So it's an interesting, it's kind of an interesting scenario where you would see it. And sometimes there'd be people that would kind of come up to me like man like we came up with that like would it have been that hard for him to say thanks to the team or whatever and it's like he doesn't mean it I promise you I've worked with people who do mean it in the past and I promise it's different um for me personally I think we work well together because I was okay with that I'm fine with it being like fine take the like you know maybe I would be better maybe I'd be further along in my career if I was okay with that. I'm fine with it being like, fine, take the, you know. And maybe I would be better,

maybe I'd be further along in my career if I was more bullish about those things. I just don't have it in me. And so I think we work well together where I would be like, you know, like I don't need that part. But would feel it sometimes when people i who are on my team did need it and i and i would that's kind of more the question a little bit see all your team that's doing all these things and yeah being a cco there at least in the beginning part was a bit of

a challenge because you you were this middle man like okay all the creatives there were like cool we have a creative leader and we and he knows what we want and da da da da da and then kind of being the middleman of trying to go hey well this is where gary's taking agency or this is what he said and da da da so it was definitely a challenge versus like i said agencies where creativity is is the culture doesn't matter your position everyone's's like, we know the North Star. Like whether I could be the custodial person there. And I know like Chris was like, it did not matter what job you had. You knew why, what the North Star of that agency was.

I was at Vayner, that was probably the, if there was a number one challenge was like, you had no idea what the North Star was. Just depended on the week, you know? I had north star and sometimes gary had his and sometimes somebody else had theirs and that was a bit of a bit of a challenge was just kind of trying to trying to do that so i will attribute this line to you or him creativity is the ultimate variable of success. That's his line. Yeah. That's his line. I, uh, I would find at times where I'm like, I would say it back to him when I felt like he wasn't, when he was sort of poo-pooing or just kind of going, I'm like, you say yourself, it's the variable success. Like, um, yeah, no, that's, that's his line for sure.

Cool. Um, is, um, is, is the platform, you know, for him, I mean, cause I almost think, you know, Gary is the ultimate variable of success with very daily media, you know, like, you know, and I think, so like, I mean, and he even says it, like, if he went away, you know, where does the agency go? And so, I mean, I don't know if that's true or not true, but we'll see how it goes. But I look up to him for, I mean, he's been super successful and kind of, I love how he kind of, you know, shoots the middle bird at, you know, anyone and everyone that's like doubts him and you know but i do wonder like

when you do that it's you think how do you foster and how could you have foster entrepreneurship when the only entrepreneur really allowed to be the entrepreneur is the leader you know like so i wonder when that will be an issue you know because you really need he needs sheep more than anything else on in a way so i don't know where that when that road rubber hits the road but hey success is obviously there so no i like i said i can't i i don't know what it's like to to wear his shoes although i he gave me a pair of his shoes so i guess guess that's the one time when that analogy makes a lot of sense. One of his many case issues. But, you know, that's an ultimate challenge, I think, to any leader. And again, he's a special, there's a reason he's successful. And there's a reason

he's who he is. He has a lot of character traits, especially work ethic, that's unlike anything I've ever seen. And I even saw this at Crispin too. When Alex left Crispin, it was like, whoa, like he hadn't really prepared the bench. And I think that exit was a little unexpected for Alex. But, you know, that was definitely a challenge for a lot of observation I made there. There was a lot of the C-suite there.

We had me, we had chief strategy officer, just what most agencies have. I always felt like it is important, not even for me as an individual, just as an agency. I always felt that it was important for VaynerMedia to be able to build a reputation amongst the industry and amongst potential clients that was, yeah, Gary's the CEO of it, but there is a lot to this place. There's a lot of other stuff you may or may not know of because you would look across the board and I'd be like there are some and there is some of the best talent i'd ever worked for especially in the media side i mean that was there are some people in the media side strategists of course creative and it was like i really feel like we

need to in fact right before i left we finally did hire uh an individual to just kind of come in and be sort of pr and like grow these stories and get, so it just wasn't here. Cause either way, Gary's always polarizing. So half of the half potential clients like him. And the other half hate him or whatever, or don't like him. And I was like, either way, it's important to pull that curtain back a little bit. Cause there's 900 people here who make this place work. And I think it's important to, uh, it's one thing where, especially on the creative side, I always like work and I think it's important to uh it's one thing where especially

on the creative side I always like and I'm always admire creative leaders who you know work to get their executive creative directors or group creative directors to get them some air time to get them on podcasts or writing articles or whatever I just think that's really important it's it's hard I understand as a creative leader, you're like, there is this natural sense. Everyone has a little insecurity of like, well, I don't want this person right below me to seem better than me

because then they'll take my job or whatever. I just think at the end of the day, even if they do take your job, if you've grown them to be able to take your job, you've done your job. But I just, I find that's always the better approach is to always be building your army because that's how you can scale. And that's, and I, I still haven't seen even in the year since I've been out of Vayner,

I still haven't seen that that's been done very well. And so, yeah, I think if he did leave, it would be kind of like, what the heck? I don't know if anyone, I mean, you know, his name is the thing. So I don't think he's leaving. So I hope he's not. No, I hope he's not either. Um, but transition just for a minute, you know, to, you know, you've built, we're building made in house. I know just like everyone that COVID is kind of like rock the boat, I'm sure with just, you know, opportunities and projects being paused and everything's like that. But I am curious philosophically, you know, your, your creative North star now, if you

so call it, you know, I know we've talked a little bit about the media company side, so maybe dive into that a bit. But, you know, what's your kind of overall philosophy for where you see things going, you know, both, I guess, post-COVID and, you know, if there's going to be an impact, but, uh, love kind of get some thoughts there. Yeah. I mean, I think my hope is, um, you know, on the other side of, of, of this, I do think you're seeing, um, the industry or for the most part, you're seeing a lot of brands learn a valuable lesson, which is like just to really, really focus on the insight and the needs of the consumer.

You know, I think right out of the gates, all the brands did that usual thing of just like, and these unprecedented, you know, just kind of saying, making an ad and not really realizing, wait a minute. Cue dramatic music yeah like pianos it's like and then there was a second wave that i think was better where all of a sudden rants took a step back and and they thought okay this is unlike anything we've ever experienced people are quarantined in their homes their kids are out of school they're trying to learn from home people parents are going crazy and they've had to then go now that all and it was also one of the first

times at least in my lifetime where i've ever seen like there was like a poll that was 70 percent of people do not want to hear from brands right now it's just like it's just the last thing you want to hear when you're someone that's like i don't even know if i'm gonna have money to buy mac and cheese i don't want a mac and cheese you? And it was like, everyone was grappling with this. And then brands started to get smart and go, okay, well here's the, and I think also brands will start to focus more on, on having meaning that transcends just the thing they sell. This is why we exist as a brand. We can have a reason. We can have a place in culture that is beyond just the product that we sell or the service we sell. So brands started to say, well, that's, we have that. And now given

this current reality, how can we go in and answer and meet the needs of our consumer based on their, their situation? And so, you know, you were seeing some, some some some fun things that or or a lot of brands were also saying we need to help so let's use our media dollars to remind people that they need to stay home or they need to wear a mask or they need to do whatever so my hope is that once we get you know back to where we're out in society and doing these things that brands will not forget even when things are completely normal or whatever that like let's still spend that time uh let's still spend 80 percent of the time on the problem and on the audience let's spend way more of that so and it's not necessarily i guess my message would be more to creatives just because that's the realm i've been in

yeah i want creative market creative people at agencies or in-house or whatever to go I guess my message would be more to creatives just because that's the realm I've been in. Yeah. Creative market, creative people at agencies or in-house or whatever to go always, no matter what the situation is, is spend all the time you can understanding the problem and understanding your audience. Don't jump so quickly to just like, I just want to make an ad to talk at people versus like spend the time, invest the time in them and then you're

going to talk with them you know yep i did a webinar last week for greenville home builders they invited me on to do it for their their association or whatever and i talked about customer-centric marketing what is going to win the day you you know, and I think it's down there. Yeah. Product centrist central or service centric versus customer centric and solving solutions for the, because you know, problems that, solving problems that consumers have with your marketing instead of speeds, feeds, features, all those things. That's right. So I think you're going to see the ones that can do that even elevate higher

because to your point with the surveys, look, it's so funny. All this stuff that's going on, I've told people, these snowballs were rolling downhill. A lot of these themes. Zoomers don't want to be marketed to. Zoomers don't want to be marketed to zoomers don't want to be sold zooms don't want to hear from brands these things these are these are like these are like little bonfires that have gas being poured on them with everything going on

you know in a lot of ways you know companies needing you know being a little inflated needing to be leaner you know like that all that was trending and now we're just like and and being able to uh you know the quarantine i think has been interesting just because it's it's it's forced a very scrappy style of production which is something that you just need to do no matter what you need to be able to back to what we were talking about way earlier was like just to be able to make the volume and still make it good at the cost and so it's been really interesting there it's like how do you go back to you know again once we get on the other side of this how do you maintain those principles of like well we know how to we know how to shoot this for we know how to be more cost effective i think

agency structure like you just said is like you don't need 18 levels of chief global creative you know galactic creative office you don't need it you know and um and and you know for the first time in my career you're seeing those kinds of individuals, you know, unfortunately, but you're seeing them let go. And you're like, wait a minute, what? And it's like, at the end of the day, when you can no longer charge a client, just to have huge exorbitant salaries, you know, you do have to focus on I don't think there's room anymore. If you're creative, especially, there's no more room for just thinkers and idea people. You have to be able to do something that makes that idea real in some way. You can't have the 18 people to screw in a light bulb. You've got to be able to go, hey, I can come up with an idea and I can at least make a prototype of it, or I can at least do this. at least and I think that is awesome we have the tools it's so easy to make and to create and there's just if there's anything really is like that's going to

be the thing COVID-19 or whatever won't erase advertising but it's going to make those who fail to say hey i need to be able to offer more than just an idea i need to be able to do something to make that idea reality yeah the kumbaya moments of you know 12 people around the creative director and let's share our ideas that one's no good this one's good i don't don't know. I think those days are, uh, you can still have those 12 people, but they're all making every one of those ideas. It's like, all right, get that one made. Let's do that one. Like that's the world we have to be in. And, and, and then also the creative directors, like,

and I've got two I'm going to be making, I'll see you guys tomorrow and we'll look at what we got. Like it's got to be that. When we were, you know, we built Radical in that, that very mold. We're very no bureaucracy and our creative director, you know, is he's working on his two and grading the other four or grading is the wrong word, but evaluating, you know, assisting, seasoning, you know, but it's fascinating. What's, uh,

what's the future hold for Steve Babcock? Geez, that's the golden question. Um, you know, it's, this last year has been really probably one of the more interesting years of my career. A, I waited kind of a long time to try the entrepreneurial thing and maybe was emotionally the worst time just with kids and all that, you know, but like, but it taught me a lot. It was like, wait, I can do this. Like it's, you know, I don't know if I'm really an entrepreneur, like, but it was very, I was always scared of doing it. And I got out there, was like, wait, I can do this. doing it and I got out there was like, wait, I can do this. And I've really, really enjoyed working on the brand side. And like I said, every time I step in, it's like, awesome, there's a great problem, we can easily fix this. And I've really enjoyed

watching that transformation and and just being it's there's a lot of um i don't know i've like i've worked in advertising for 20 years and and not until maiden house was like the first time i've ever had someone thank me you know for like for helping them out there's just i don't know why i think maybe the industry of advertising such a thankless job and to go in there and and have conversations after you spend like a month with a team and to have like the lead creative, they're coming to you after and just be like, I want to thank you so much for how much you've helped me. And it's just, I don't know, I feel really good about it. I will say the travel that is required for consultants is like a bit much, it's a bit heavy, but, um, I probably has no surprise. You know know i remember march 12th exactly was the day that all of my

stuff just went we're gonna put this on pause we're gonna drive so it's made analysis very much on pause i mean i'm doing like a few things here and there but not at the level that i would want i don't think half the world is doing the things at the level so right now it's a little bit of a wait and see, like, is this going to, what kind of, you know, how long is this going to take? But also, you know, thinking a little bit about, Hmm, I wonder if, you know, I've been noodling a little bit about how to take made in house and turn it

into something that's a little bit more of an agency based on a lot of the philosophies that I've learned by spending time in house. And I've got a couple of concepts where I'm like that, that would work really well. And, and I'll admit there are times where I'm like, man, I miss having a big team of people. I do. Sometimes I miss like, I don't know if it's an agency, but, or maybe it's a brand if they want to start it in, you know, if there's something, I do miss that sort it's an agency, but, uh, or maybe it's a brand if they want to start it in, you know, if there's something, I do miss that sort of like, cause even as a consultant, even if you spend some time there, you're still an outsider. Yeah.

And I do, I, I kind of missed that little like family mentality. So what's next is, uh, as good a guess as anybody can, can have, uh, just kind of like everybody taking it sort of week by week uh like i said i'm a father with three three kids and two of them are teenagers so that's a big part of uh of my life and just kind of figuring it out but um i don't know i think after a year of made in house i've learned that the pivot can be fun and can be good so i i'm okay going like i don't know um we'll see maybe i'll become an east professional esports player i've been getting pretty good at fortnight with my kid so maybe i'll be the oldest professional esports guy who knows hey there's

your media company right there twitch is blowing up uh watching people play video games. You ever see that old white bald guy on Twitch? He's rad. One of my dear friends is actually, I wouldn't call him this. He's definitely older. I think you and I are similar in age, probably more than you realize. I'm 43. I just turned 43.

There we go. My good friend, Scott Cole, he is the voice of NBA 2K, and he's huge. Look him up, Scott Coltrane. But he's huge in esports and as a personality. He's a hell of a video game player, but his personality, he's done stuff with Madden, and he's been on NFL Network and done a lot of things. game player, but he's personality's done stuff with Madden and he's been on NFL network and done a lot of things, but, uh, and he's, he's, he's, he's the old ball dude on, uh, on e-sports

right now, but I think there's room for more. I love it, man. E-sports is, I mean, I'm a small investor. I'm no, no Gary Vee, but I'm a very small investor in, uh, in a couple of e-sports things that I just, it's a, and again, I have a son who's very into it. I love that world. I think it's a lot of fun. I think brands can, it's a place where brands need to get more involved in beyond just like NASCAR logos on jerseys and things. It's a place where, man, it's like creativity is just waiting to explode in e-sports. Cause right now it's like creativity is just waiting to explode in esports because right now it's still just sponsorships and blah blah blah versus like getting there and come up with something because i think a lot of brands and a lot of the world just doesn't understand how gigantic esports really is i mean it is beyond uh so it's a lot of fun. So, um, yeah, I don't know. We'll see. If I can have my way, I'd become a talk show host. So maybe, maybe,

maybe I'll be on a tonight show. Well, the more of these you do, maybe we're just, we're building on your reel if nothing else. There you go. That's all I'm really doing. Yeah. Steve, where can everybody keep up with you? Um, what's the best way? Well, fortunately I'm one of, of two Steve Babcock's in the world that I've ever been able to find. The other one is a karate instructor, I think in Indiana.

So if you Google Steve Babcock and get the karate guy, I've tried to hit him up cause he owns stevebabcock.com, but it turns out he's got a pretty healthy karate instructor business going on. But yeah, just, I mean, we're pretty active on Instagram. At Steve Happens is my handle there. Or LinkedIn or just email stevebabcock at gmail.com. So I'm pretty much on the internet. Cool, man.

Well, I really appreciate you coming on and look forward to kind of continuing our dialogue. And, you know, and, you know, it's fascinating. I know we just scratched the surface on a lot of the brands and campaigns you worked on. But I think there's some really good nuggets here for just, you know, your philosophy with creative, your philosophy with teams. And I know that our audience will really appreciate your insight and, and I appreciate you just spending the time. Absolutely. I appreciate you having me. It's been a lot of fun and, uh, and, um, yeah, I'm, uh, it's been a good conversation. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah. All right, guys, that's all for today's episode of the radical marketing podcast. Appreciate Steve Babcock for coming on. We'll see you next time. To learn more about Radical, visit radical.company on the web or follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Thanks for listening to the Radical Marketing Podcast.