Right About Now with Ryan Alford - You Might Also Like: Secret Leaders with Dan Murray-Serter & Chris Donnelly

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Introducing How I disrupted a $671 billion industry from my bedroom from Secret Leaders with Dan Murray-Serter & Chris Donnelly .Follow the show: Secret Leaders with Dan Murray-Serter & Chris Donnelly Every entrepreneur dreams of disrupting an industry, but few have done it as boldly as today's guest. In this episode, we dive into the story of a visionary who took on billion-dollar skincare giants like L'Oréal and Nivea—without any prior industry experience—and became the #1 men's skincare brand in France. He rejected conventional practices, bypassed traditional retail, and found success by challenging the status quo in one of the most established markets imaginable.What makes this conversation even more fascinating is how our guest spotted what the beauty behemoths overlooked: their greatest strengths had turned into their biggest weaknesses. Their size, reliance on traditional retail, and outdated strategies blinded them to how men actually want to shop for skincare products. Our guest’s innovative approach disrupted the industry and proved that sometimes, the most obvious opportunities are the ones industry leaders are too entrenched to see.Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur looking to identify a market gap or someone ready to challenge industry giants, this episode is packed with insights on how to seize opportunities hiding in plain sight. Tune in to discover the strategies behind this ground-breaking success and learn how to apply them to your own business journey.______________________________________Sign up to Wise Business banking:https://wise.com/gb/business/?utm_sou...Thanks to HP our sponsor for this episode. For 10% off the HP Omnibook UltraFlip with built-in AI, use code 'HPLOVEWORK'. Valid until 31st January 2025, UK only. T&Cs apply. https://bit.ly/HPOmnibook-SLQ424Join Vanta and recieve $1000 off:http://vanta.com/secretleaders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices DISCLAIMER: Please note, this is an independent podcast episode not affiliated with, endorsed by, or produced in conjunction with the host podcast feed or any of its media entities. The views and opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the creators and guests. For any concerns, please reach out to [e-mail].

If you're doing business internationally, you should check out Wise Business, the app for doing things in other currencies. Wise Business is the only account you need to manage your company's international money with ease. You can pay and get paid in up to 40 currencies globally, without the headache of multiple accounts. Here's what makes Wise Business incredible. Fast payments, direct integration with platforms like Amazon and Stripe, and seamless connections to your accounting software. With real-time tracking and 24-7 security, your international finances stay protected and under control. Even better, there are no hidden fees,

no marked-up exchange rates, and no subscription costs to eat into your profits. You can get started with Wwise in less time than it takes to make your morning cup of coffee, whether you're launching a new venture or scaling Go Blue. To learn more about how Wyze could work for your business, visit wyze.com slash business. Okay, Mark, welcome to the show. You are someone who is disrupting massively multi-billion dollar industry giants, people like Nivea, like L'Oreal, and you're doing it all with Horace. So, want to get you just to introduce yourself firstly.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and why this brand started. So I'm Marc, uh, Brian Terlé, Brian Terlé, if I said in French way, I'm like CEO and co-founder of Horace, which is a brand we started with my co-founder, Kim Mazilil eight years ago. And the idea of was we like, can we do a brand that actually like speak to us in a broader way speak to our family speak to our friend because i mean it was and it still is very very cliche i mean it's still like a very muscular guy it's still like bright orange like huge form and stuff things that smell like the 80s.

And it was like, can I have like a good looking product that just works well when you talk to me in a simple way and you have people that look like me, my friends and everyone in the ads and not just only David Beckham because it's like, I'm not an athlete. I don't have like a nutritionist, an aesthetician. So like I'm a regular guy. And so we started with that and it just really took off.

You worked in marketing and journalism when you first started, right? So how do you think that outside perspective helped you spot what other people were missing? That's a very, very good question. I mean, one of the things that helped us a lot, Kim and myself, is that we are outsider. We didn't come from like cosmetics or fragrance at all. Um, I worked, so yeah, I was a journalist

at the very beginning of my careers and I moved into marketing. I work mostly in fashion. And fashion and beauty is the same stuff. Even though like they don't operate the same way, I mean, you buy it because you want to look good. It's the same goal you have in mind. And I also had the chance of being advanced.

So the Skate Company, in 2008 to 2010, when it really took off in Europe. And I sort of created the digital environment for them. So like e-commerce, email, digital, social media and stuff, when was like basically MySpace and Facebook. And so I understand how much you needed content and you needed to like, and, and, and social media would also allow us to have like a direct relationship, which is something when you're loyal, when you're buy your stuff with Nivea for men, you don't do because your client is like a supermarket. So having this age of being able to create the connection directly and having in mind that content is really the most important thing.

I mean, it has to fit the brand. So it's of course, and the product, but it's a lot about content. We sort of channel into that and we just created like the best brand, best product with just the best content. And I was reading before that, and you might update us, but in 2023, you had 21% of the French market in men's skincare, men's skincare. And, and since 2023? I mean, I don't have all the 2024 numbers yet, but I'd say 41%.

But are you sitting there thinking directionally? Oh yeah, directionally we're going to be somewhere between 25% and 30%. Wow. And so it means that we will almost be double the number two. There would be an assumption as well. I think the, uh, the French, the men's French market, you know, maybe along with Italian and then maybe English, but probably not would be the premium market for this space in general.

Nope. Oh, skincare for men is bigger in the UK than it is in France, but like twice bigger, but we use more fragrance in France because you know, we don't bounce and stuff, so we're dirty. So my favorite looks is perfume, it's set in Paris. And yeah, I mean, it's basically France and the UK are. You know, in and out the same type of market. And yeah, we're number one in men's skincare, we're number four in men's hair. And we will stay number four in men's hair, but we're going to close the

edge with American crew in France. So it's, I mean, we are sort of, and also to add like overall, like in a men's beauty and fragrance in France, we are now in the top 10. So, and this like 2024, we will be bigger than L'Oreal Menx pair, closing the gap with an Ivory for men and, you know, starting to be very close with just bigger fragrance that just only sell fragrance. So it's sort of a, it's kind of crazy because I would have never expected that in my life. I mean, one of my questions to you is, I suppose retrospectively now we're sitting here in

2024 looking at men's grooming and so forth. I think it's easy now to say that you can see it however you know you started eight years ago I worked like we were talking about before I worked in I helped a men's fragrance company scale massively but at the time we were almost shocked at how fast it was growing and so when you started were you looking at this as a business start or were you saying this could be a massive business? Like what was the opportunity at the time for you? I mean, we wanted to be like a massive business

because I mean, when you're in the main space, like the market is so narrow that you're either big or you're dead. Like the market is not big enough for you to be niche. In fragrance, you can actually be, but if you're like grooming and fragrance, you cannot be niche in men's. It doesn't like, it's too small. So by just the idea of like, we want to do that.

The only ambition that was possible was like we have to be big. Because if we don't, I mean like we'll die at some point that's because it's just it's not possible to fight. What did big look like then? Big was like the idea was like how we can be like the favorite men's brand in the world. It was always like the ambitions like we want to be that. And we wanted to be that step by step. So it's then first in France, then it's the UK, then the US. It's not about like taking over everywhere

because regulation in cosmetic and finance is so big. You cannot just, it's not like a white t-shirt. You cannot like sell it everywhere. You have to enter each regulations. Like let's do it step by step. But the idea was like, yeah, we can do that. And we can also do that because it was, and it still is very, very lame. It's an industry that I mean, if you're a man, advertising is still about like

making sure that if you put like a moisturizer on your face, you're still man enough and this sort of where I was like, no, that's okay. Like I'm past that, we are all past that. It's no longer the question. It's just like, yeah, I use like a face wash. I clean myself, which is pretty normal. And I use the moisturizer because my skin is tight. And if I don't do that, it's like annoying.

But it's just, it was like, there was like a huge space for us mmm it's interesting as you mentioned in passing earlier David Beckham actually but in Venice he has done a massive massive global job yeah for men like the old thing was very much like hey if you're a cool good-looking tough guy you just roll out of bed and live your life you go to nearing and all this shit, you don't do that stuff. And he's probably the first really aspirational man that other men look up to and was like, this guy is exactly he's like one of the world's best footballers at the time, and played in the

world's best teams. And then had this celebrity lifestyle after where he became a global icon and was probably the first global icon in that space and he did it all while saying this is all about taking care of myself like the whole positioning was around being a man who looks after yourself it's quite interesting as a first person to really do that yeah it was the first one to be like really open about it because i mean if you think about like with pride yeah yeah francine aleroy was wearing a toupee. He never said he was wearing a toupee. Yeah. But that's like. But also like jokes aside, look at other icons that people look up to, like even,

you know, French ones like Eric Cantona, who people in the UK were obsessed with. Like he's not putting on face cream. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, they were the rugged man. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it was the time of the gala girls and stuff. So it was like very, and Beckham was like, you can actually take care of yourself and doesn't change who you are, which was like a huge thing. I mean, I was like, so I'm 38. I mean, it means like it was when I was late in high school and stuff. And it has like a shift in the mind. It's like, okay, I can actually take care of myself.

But at some point we also need to past be like beyond David Beckham, because it cannot be the only model you should, man. It cannot be just one very muscular guy, young, rich, white, cisgender. At some point you need to have like a broader vision. And it was like a very different, because at the same time you are like become saying like, I can take care of myself. That's OK. You had like Dove saying like, this is real beauty.

And you were showing it, advertising like women of all ages, color, morphologies, which was so fucking different. And now you have like Rihanna with Fenty and stuff. But if you still look at advertising for men in beauty,

it's still like very much like Henry Cavill, you know, like a good looking actor, usually white. It's not even Idris Elba, you know, it's still very the same. Like in a skincare range, Terry Henry. Hmm. Wouldn't mean good. Yeah. That's why people would have bought it.

Any chance of a Horace and Thierry Henry coming out? Is he too old now? Thierry Henry? No, Thierry Henry, if you listen to the show, I'm up for it. I love you, man. He would be great. Yeah, he has great skin. Yeah, exactly.

That's the thing. He probably looks after himself. Totally. Do you find it different advertising heights to men and women? Well maybe you can maybe give us some context on heights. Yeah so I run a consumer company as well, consumer subscription company called Heights. We make supplements for brain and gut health. 60% of our audience.

You see that fucking everywhere. I mean he puts them everywhere. 60% of our customer base is female. So that's a split, right? So it's pretty much 50-50, 60%. To be honest with you, no. Same thing. Yeah, same, same.

In supplements, the way it works is the majority of the customers are in a household, right? And in a household, it's women. And so when you start doing stuff for families, women buy for their husbands, and women buy for their kids, and women, women, women. So you do think slightly more on the basis of is a woman going to engage with this or disengage with this?

So the language and all that kind of stuff needs to be consciously not overly masculine. That's the thing. And men will still buy it. The language in supplements and health doesn't need to be really for men to buy into it. They just need to understand that the science and it works and that stuff is fine. So there's a really interesting space. Whereas I think in some supplement categories, people really double down on being for bros. Yeah. I mean, if you do proteins only and stuff, it's usually like a broad language. Totally. Totally. I don, if you do proteins only and stuff, it's usually like a broad

language. Totally. Totally. I don't think that's necessary, but I think it works. Yeah, I think it works, but it also opened up a space for a brand that doesn't talk that way, which was exactly what happened to us. It's like, because you are so cliche in the way you talk about men, it opened up a space for a brand to talk differently. And it was, I mean, and the whole point is like, we were sure that there were actually more men that were open to being spoken to in a normal way and not in a cliche way. And it was like the bet was basically all that. It's like we are at the moment in the life and the use of grooming products and fragrance, that we no longer need to reassure men about their masculinity because they are using products.

And let's see about that, basically. It's one of these things that once you start using products, you literally can't get back. Yeah. Like how weird you feel afterwards not using products. Yeah, because you feel that your skin is tight. You'll feel like your hair is not as good. You feel like you don't smell that good. So, you know, and, and it's like, yeah, you don't, you don't get back really.

I think there's also something in the, in the men's space. Women have done a really good job of self-love and self-care. And I think that feels uncomfortable for men to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's men and women have like as many complexes. I mean, it's not a gender thing. It's just the way that women talk about it in a different way.

It's cultural. Yeah. And it's the feminism. It's like it's about you feeling good in yourself, not fitting in like certain archetypes of how you should be as a woman. Whereas men, we don't, we are still very much feel the pressure of like, we have to fit in the archetype. Because I mean, I say like, I don't want to be David Beckham, but at the same time, I like, I'm, I'm seen, I'm healthy, like I take care of myself, I have like good skin, I had like hair transplant. So I'm actually closer

to like David Beckham's and I am to someone that really don't care about that. But it's just like having the flexibility and men we are not yet there. But I think it's the role for us is also to help more men get there. It's like if you have acne, that's okay. You can take care of yourself and if if you have the disease, sometimes that's fine. When the company launched originally, how well received was it? Like, did you have like an immediate product market fit? We had, yeah. That was honestly still crazy to think about it

because like it was never a struggle. It's like, so we started with skincare. Let's just stop the interview. I can't talk to people like this. No, no, no. I mean, I know that, but it's, you know, it's kind of crazy. I mean, it has been like, we didn't have like much question. The, the way the brand is now is the same as HL, HL eight years ago.

It hasn't changed. Like it's the same mission, same value, same branding. And we started with skincare because the good thing, there is two good things with skincare. First, it's sort of the most complicated category when you're a newbie. And most men are newbies. I am a newbie. So you don't know. So if there is a brand you trust that is a good product, you're going to follow them. And the good thing about skincare is that it sort of has an aura of all other grooming categories. And if your skincare products are good,

your body care product is good, your beat care is good, your hair care is good. Whereas if you come from deodorant and then you move to skincare, it's like, man, you're a deodorant brand, what are you selling to my face? And so we started with that and skincare took off really at the beginning.

Can you give us some numbers? That's a good. So yeah, first production of product were like 2500. Right. And we... Presumably before you'd sold anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we sold it in... I'm not sure.

I think it was six months or something. Wow. And then we just like moved to more and more and more. And it was, yeah, I mean, it was still a, because it's not like a fashion brand where you can just print, you know, 50 t-shirt and you see like we had to take the risk of having like 2,500 units per reference and we had two.

It's like rough on the cash. Yeah, exactly. It's like we actually, we need to raise money because we didn't have money. So you raised before you did the take-off. Exactly. I mean, so even to be precise, so I said, and this is important in the stories, like I don't come from fragrance and cosmetic and neither those scheme. So actually the company is 10 years old and the brand is eight years old.

And the two year difference is like, I thought I would be able to launch product in three months. And when I came to the factory, he said, okay, I like, I want to do like this cleanser and this moisturizer, can it be ready for next September? And it was May, it's like, yeah, yeah, September next year. No, no, no, this year. No, no, no, no way. And so we had to sit down and taking the decision of like,

what do we do? Because I quit my job. Kim was still working like at that time in Canada and he was like working basically overnight. And this is your co-founder. Yeah, co-founder. Yeah. And it was like, what do we do?

And the idea was like, okay, we're going to buy product wholesale, build a brand. So we is like, had the branding, had the content. We had like one toothbrush that was a us because we wanted people to realize that we could be a brand and not just like a retailer. And it took us, yeah. So two years after that, we launched the, you know, face cleanser, which is a purifying face cleanser and the mattifying face moisturizer, which should exist now. And they made up of 50% of the sales right away.

Wow. So it was like, okay, we seeing it, it's working. And, uh, and it was like a very interesting moment because we didn't want to start as a retailer. It was like never the point, but we took it as an opportunity to just learn about the category because we were able to, you know, buy deodorant, buy shampoos, like different product in skincare and just like, you know, what do men buy and you know, how far do they go in terms of pricing and stuff?

And this is how we realized that men were looking for like a way better deodorant that what they could have like in a supermarket, because they were one of our best sellers was like a 20 euros deodorant. So it's like, okay, maybe there is something because you'll see if you're spending that much money, it means something. You know what's funny about being an entrepreneur? Everyone thinks we're these super productive machines, crushing it 24x7. But here's the truth.

Sometimes just finding the right file feels like a treasure hunt. And that's why I'm excited to tell you about HP's new AI PC. I'm never nervous going into a virtual first impression because this camera is amazing. The Poly Camera Pro will set you up with perfect lighting and perfect framing even from your kitchen counter. But the best part is its AI features. It can summarize 10,000 words in seconds. Let the HP AI companion focus on the research so you can focus on doing what's most important for your business. Look, I've built and sold companies worth millions, and I'll tell you this, when you've got work to do,

you don't want bad tools to slow you down. The HP Omnibook Ultra Flip isn't just another laptop. Because of its integrated AI features, it's like having an entire support team built into your computer. Whether you're starting out or scaling up, this tech actually makes a difference. It's not just fancy features,

it's about giving you back time to focus on what matters. Building your business. A new AI era begins with the HP Omnibook Ultra Flip. This isn't just an upgrade, it's an absolute game changer. And trust me, once you try it, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. For 10% off, use the code HPLoveWork. That's HP Love Work for 10% off. matter your team, your favorite player or your style. There's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM, a sports book worth a slam dunk

and authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge.

Vett MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So before we talk more about, I suppose, GM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So before we talk more about, I suppose, the growth from 2500 products onwards, like let's take a step back. What were the big billion dollar menswear, men's fragrance, men's beauty brands getting wrong? What was it that they were missing that allowed you to come in so strong? Yeah, was it product or messaging?

Both. It's really product and branding because, I mean, you buy in that category, you buy for product and branding. And so if you look at the product, it was, and the branding, everything was usually over complicated, which is the main thing about this industry. Beauty loves making things more complicated than they actually are.

I mean, if you look at the name of a L'Oreal Manx Fair product, it's not like a moisturizer, it's like a Hydra, Energetic, whatever, moisturizing stuff. Whereas our product is a mattifying face moisturizer. And it's still like bright orange or you know very like dated you know product packaging and the messaging and the branding at the same time was very dated. I remember for example and it's very very specific it was like a bio term advertising for men and it was a woman applying moisturizer on the face of the man and was like, yeah, which as we all know happens every morning. Come on. It's like, sounds nice. Come on. Like, that guy's living a great life.

It's like, it was like, never happened in my life. We've never happened in my life ever. And he was like, they were, if you even asked your wife, she'd be like, yeah, like she's got so many fucking creams to put on herself. And, and it was still, you know, very, again, like cliche in a way in terms of physique and the way we talk and we just, we made it much simpler, which was really the idea is like the product needs to be simple, the way we talk has to be simple. The branding is simple, but it still can be aspiring because you can be simple and

neat, which is the whole point of Apple. So it was just, yeah, basically really just over complicated. And it still is, honestly. I mean, if you go to a supermarket and you look at most product, you don't understand what they do. And it's just, it's a fucking shampoo. You've got this, you know, non-entrepreneurial family. You go to business school, you spot an opportunity. Beauty sucks. And there's an opportunity for us to do it better. People listening will be like, okay, actually, you know, I've got my

own version of this story. I had the same version of that story too, you know, for, and so it's a very typical start of an entrepreneur thing. But, you know, for me, I didn't know anything about supplements or how they got made or anything. So, you know, when people ask me like, what did you do? I'm like, well, I mean, there was a shitty trade show in the Excel center that I had to go to, then I had to go to Vienna and go to a trade show there and trade show, because you don't know anyone in the industry, right? You just have to do the, you know, break into an industry. You

have to just go meet people and learn this stuff. And there is no other way of doing it. Cause if you don't know anyone in the category and you have no contacts, you've got to go force your way in. What's your version of that? Like how did you literally go, you know, make creams, understand how production works, like get to the first 2,500 order.

Take us through the early days. Did the 2,500 sell through your website? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like get to the first 2,500 order. Like take us through the early days. Did the 2,500 sell through your website? Yeah. Yeah, like setting up a website. Yeah. Yeah, so how did you do that? But I mean, one thing that is really important, I'm just side answering that it's like,

when you're a men's brand, there is no wholesale opportunity. I mean, it's going back to like the most, internet most insult question. It's like you have to be DTC because the shelf is so little that no one will take you if you're not big. So we had to be DTC. It was like, yeah, just like that.

And so I didn't know anything about cosmetics and fragrance at all. And but like, I'm a huge nerd and I'm a huge book nerd. So if I don't know something, I can buy like dozens of books, read them in like very short amount of time and being able to understand like 80% of how it works in a very, and even more than that in a very short amount of time. So launching consumer men's skincare for dummies. Basically. So yeah, I actually, I bought like books on Amazon about like, you know,

how skin works, how hair works, how, you know, how you create cosmetics, what is the role of like, conservative, like of active ingredients, you know, how like why natural is more interesting than like synthetic and stuff like that. So I read it all. I started and I created the first formula on paper by myself. Now I don't, but I'll tell you why just a little bit after a while. And the amazing thing as well is like I can do that on my own. Yes. But the amazing thing about starting like a cosmetic and fragrance brand in France is like, we have the best talent. Honestly, it's just, we have so many factories, so many great schools, so many great people that are very, very good at that.

So I was able to find like a partner to like actually manufacture the product because it's an industrial stuff. It's not even manufactured. It's like a machinery. And it was easy because there are so many factories in France. You have the cultural heritage. Yeah, exactly. Because we have L'Oréal, we have Inter Parfum, we have the LVMH.

All the biggest cosmetics company are in France. So you have like the network of it. Yeah, it's actually amazing what you're saying. It's making me realize, you know, you have all of that set up, just not done well for men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you have the talent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But not necessarily the application. Yeah, yeah, but because I mean, if men, because men is only 10% of the market, why bother? I mean, if you're big, why bother about 10% of the market? And so I started like that. And the first employee we had, uh, we've had is Elise, which is still, we still part of the company and she's the R and D director. And she started like as marketing intern, like a digital marketing

intern, but this was not her thing. And she actually like, she had a double degree from like the best cosmetic and phy. School in France and from one of like a very good business school. And after six months of interning on digital marketing, I said, okay, look, I want you to stay, but I want you to like take over product development because you know, you have like take over product development because you know you have like a chemistry background that I don't have and I can

do the first two products, but then it's just like it's Too complicated for me. So I need someone that is able to talk in the same way That the factories talk to me because we will make sure that it goes way, way faster that way. That's amazing. Marketing intern now. What a career. Yeah. It's also so interesting though.

I remember listening to a very in-depth story of LVMH and you learn about, you know, what France has that's so unique is, you know, you were just mentioning like out of the top cosmetic, you know, an engineering unique, you were just mentioning out of the top cosmetic engineering school, culturally as a country, you must be the only country in the world that has these boutique, but they're not boutique because they're large because it's the industry. The industry size is tens of billions, so they are mainstream schools, but around industry categories. Yeah, and it exports so well. How unbelievably interesting is that? you just don't have anything like that in the UK.

No, we were very different. Yeah. No, I mean, that's, that's interesting about like, it's also a bit about luck, you know, because I didn't, I never thought I would do like cosmetic and fragrance and when I talk about Kimla about the idea and say, okay, and he says, let's do it like we didn't know, or we didn't realize that it, we were in the right country to actually do it. It's really, at some point it's just boils down to luck.

I mean, you had to put yourself there. Exactly. It's like, I have like literally Fortuna tattooed on my skin, which is like, it's a Machiavel stuff. So Fortuna is like luck in Latin and Virtu is the aptitude of being able to say luck, which is something in the Machiavelli book. And it's, I mean, you need luck, but you need

also to be able to see luck and use it. And, but it was like, we have this thing that we can do better. And the luck was about like having someone at the very beginning of our that was very good at product and saying like, you're better than me, that's fine. We're gonna like, I'm gonna take back some of the marketing you do. And I'm gonna give you back, like product development. And it was like one of the best ideas. Like, like ever had honestly. That's one of the interesting things like early founders slash CEOs stepping back from things often people will say it's

so lucky this person was amazing if you look at the other way because you made that great decision that person then grew and has grown for eight years and has become them because you made that decision. Luck is preparation meets opportunity. Exactly. So yeah, I mean, it sounds, I mean, the one thing I think is fascinating when you originally were speaking, I was like, did you launch in France because you knew that the foundations were there, but no, because if you'd launched this in the UK. We could have launched this in Montreal, right? Yeah, I mean, Montreal no, because the market is so little.

Okay. I mean, Canada is only 30 millions. Yeah. So it's really, really little. But I mean, we could have done it in the UK, we could have done it in France, but I don't know if it would have worked in the same way because the network is not the same.

What's the branding of it being French? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, you know, Yeah, I mean, in that category, being French is like, it's the thing. And if you were in the UK, you should move to France. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I probably like, when you see how many like UK or even like Swedish brands end up being produced in France and make sure that it's like made in France and blah, blah, blah. It's, it's a thing. And I didn't.

There are certain things where, yeah, there are certain things where being made in Britain and blah, blah, blah. It's a thing. And I didn't... There are certain things where being made in Britain is the best. And certain things where being made in France is the best. What's good for Britain? Shoes. Shoes is a great example. You have like the best shoe brand in the world. It is a great example.

I mean, there's quite a few, but like if you're in beauty, cosmetics, whatever, it's France. And fashion would be somewhere between Italy, France, Britain, probably in that order. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And so obviously you went from D to C and then you did break into being on the shelf. Yeah.

Presumably because of the 10% rule replacing competitors. How did that feel? So we started 100% e-commerce and then we did like a first retail pop-up. It was in September 2018 and in one month we'd made like 30k euros, which was at that time like a third of like half of what we do online. We're like, okay, this is like one thing if I'm able to do like half of the online business in one month in the store, it means something. So we worked a lot on finding a place which has taken a bit of time and we

opened straight after the first, um, um, lockdown in France and we arrived lockdown in France and we arrived properly wholesale in, I mean, in a big wholesale was 2021. We started small, doing small wholesale very early on because we were at Mr. Porter. I assume that you know guys that because you're British and good. I worked with them for years. Yeah, because some people in France don't necessarily know Mr. Porter. I think you're very British and you know them. and good. Because I worked with them for years. Yeah, because some people in France don't necessarily know Mr. Porter, but yeah. I think you're very Breton, you know. Yeah, exactly.

So we were at Mr. Porter, we were in good concept store and stuff, but it's still very low numbers. And so we arrive in Monoprix, which is sort of a high-end supermarket, a bit similar to Wethrose, slightly higher market. And it was weird to like see the brand for the first time in a supermarket because like it is sort of, okay, like this is real.

And much like the store, I mean, with the store, you start like feeling this is real because I mean, the first store we opened is in Le Marais in France and we are nearby Fred Perry, Supreme, like a Chanel store, like Arcteric, Salomon, it's like, okay, it feels like it's the right place and it feels like real, but being in the supermarket, it feels like you're no longer niche, like you're no longer niche, like you play with the big guys. And it was also weird because we actually didn't take any shelf at the, at the very beginning and we still don't do that much monoprix. We have our own furniture.

So we're sort of like, we have like a huge Rastauer full ofast products, that is just nearby the men's shelf. And we are the only brand that has proper furniture in the store. So it also means that the brand pops up way more in your eye and you're treated differently. So in the eyes of a shopper, it's like, oh, you're not like spread out. You're not the brand that is spread out through, you know, deodorant and shaving and stuff. Like you have like all our ass at one place. And it's, and it was, yeah, it was, it's still amazing.

I mean, I was with my mom at like a monoprix, like two or three weeks ago, and I was like, this is myself. And my mom was like training up some stuff because like she's my mom. Yeah. And it's still, yeah, it's weird. But the weirdest thing is honestly to see a guy at the airport or at the gym, like opening up his toiletry bag because you have to do that at the airport or at the gym.

And like a guy like takes out like, no, I don't. I'm thunder. No no I don't I'm like you I'm always tempted but I feel like no I don't wanna I don't want to be that guy sneaky way you're like oh like I've just bought that. What do you think? Get a little customer research. No, no, no. It's like a smart move that I'll do it. Do you think that getting rejected so much by retail has actually been an advantage to

you? Yes. Yes, yes. Because we had to build a very, very strong brand. Because if you go to wholesale, you can, you can rely on people talking about you and pushing you. Whereas you know, we are on your DTC, you have like to have like the strongest brand possible. And it sort of allows you when you go wholesale to have like a

nudge in the negotiations, like I don't rely on you. Like if you shut down, that's okay. My business will go on. And so you don't have all that. You have like a stronger brand and you also have like a stronger position in the negotiation because you don't rely on them. They're cooler because they have you. Yeah, exactly.

They need me more than I need them. And it's changed the dynamic like a lot. And I'm, I'm very like that in Wallsale. It's like, my mindset is like, I don't need you. I need them at some point because I mean, I will, I cannot have like, I'm a men's brand. I cannot have like a store in every place in the world. So you need Wallsale at some point. And some Wallsale are very good at building reputation image.

Mr. Porter is, for example, this is why we wanted to go there. But it's different when you actually rely on them and you shut down if they sort of strike you out. And there are so many stories in consumer goods. Whereas cosmetics, food or fashion, where like a huge wall seller shuts you down and like you die right away. Yeah. And so being DTC creates this sense of autonomy that is honestly very, that helps you like helps me a lot, like sleep well at night. Yeah. I used to do the digital marketing for Nesporte and Mr. Porter and you did see a lot of brands

kind of come and go. But I suppose I was saying they're thinking, why aren't the big brands just completely copying you now? Why are they releasing their own niche branded products to take you on? So this is something I learned as well by going in this industry. It's like the big groups don't launch brands. They buy them. They buy them.

So they are very good at like, like globally scaling a brand. So take it from, you know, being big in five countries and making it available everywhere and they are good at mergers and acquisition basically. So they don't, they don't compete, they don't think about competing. It's not like this is... Do you know a lot of other brands now competing with you that I suppose all could be acquired in the future? No, no, no.

The amazing thing is like we are very alone in our spaces. This is something I still don't really realize. It's like how come we are very alone in our spaces. This is something I still don't really realize. It's like, how come we are very alone? I mean, you are, you see brands as you say that come and go, but like nothing really happens. I mean, you have Harry's in the US and in the UK, which is like huge, but it's a shaving stuff. And-

That's a clever brand. And yeah, they are like, like honestly, wow, one of the best. And, but it's shaving. And whereas us, we are a lot of, you know, skincare, fragrance, and I mean, we're big in deodorant and hair care as well, but it's, it's a different stuff. And, but now we see that they are sort of copying, copying, copying us. Copying.

Copying us. Yeah, sorry. Copying us in certain products. For example, Garnier really some serums that have like almost the same branding, same ingredients, same way, same name for the product. So like this sort of, I know that like a brand called Véleda, which is like a huge German natural brand has like a horus plan, because they want to like they want to make sure that we sort of don't compete but the amazing thing

with big groups, especially in cosmetic because they are really really huge. Like when they think it's time to compete, you have like two or three years ahead of you. Yeah. So the idea is like, you want to compete now, but like, yeah. And I suppose that is a good question, right? Which is, you know, how do you keep your disruptor mindset, you know, now that you're number one? We are number one in skincare, which is just one category.

So we are, there are still other category where we can be number one. So like the mindset is still here because they are okay. Skincare is fine. It's like a huge step. I'm saying that like it's nothing but it's like a huge step. But it's a huge step in one category in one country. So it's just very very little. I mean the idea is like how we can do that in other categories and the main focus for us is Fragrance and in other countries which is where the main focus is the UK. So, and when we will be like, you know, very big in both and both countries and both categories,

now, yes, mindset will maybe change a little bit because we will have to think in a different way. But even I, I'm even not sure what I'm it because I mean, Europe is so tiny. I mean, with, I mean, France and Britain and Germany, we feel we are big, but we are very, very tiny. It's like we are nowhere compared to like China and the US or Brazil. So, and India. So it's like, I still, I will have that feeling because I mean, I realize that we are just still very, very little. But it's different to convey the feeling to the team because I mean, the team and the people that join now

feel that they are joining like a much bigger company. Yeah. And they are true, like we are 150 now. You're 150 people. Yeah, we are 150 and including the stores. So you feel like you're part of like a bigger thing, but we need to make sure that we keep the culture of like still being bold and you know, going above and beyond. And it's, this is actually the tough part.

The tough part is not my mindset, it's how we can make sure that we have the same company mindset. Yeah. I'm going to ask you the question that gets asked to me all the time. When are you going to break into China? I mean, I don't know. We sort of soft launched a couple of months ago. But what I call a soft launch is, you China, you can, there is this part of the business called Cross Border, where you don't need as a cosmetic brand or fragrance brand to be fully localized. Exactly.

Thank you. And, but it's still like very small fraction of the market. So we are there and we'll see, you know, how far it takes us. And yet we need to realize that this is like a very different, like culture. And I'm not saying that in a way of actually like the way people consume, because I mean, you, I, you go there, I go there. It's like, we dress the same, we look the same, like everybody has jeans and Air Force One.

It's like, but it's not the same, we look the same, like everybody has jeans and Air Force One. It's like, but it's not the same social media. It's not the same e-commerce platform. It's not the same way of doing the business totally. And whereas when you move to France from the UK, I mean, it's still Instagram. You can still have your own website. Yeah. Boots is similar to like a pharmacy or monoprene friends It's you still have in the same, you know paradigm of business was like China is just

Yeah I as I say early like I obviously work with Creed for basically eight years from niche to Mainstream and one of the things we did in the last few years was we helped them localise their business to go into China. And then we as a business, we were called Verb. We built a business called Verb China specifically to help brands do it because it was such an opportunity.

And obviously it's so much harder than just going into China, right? Like it's a whole different landscape. But I think for me thinking about you and China, I want to get a sense of your scale and I want to get a sense of the story. So you raised money originally, you then pretty much scaled out the gate and you've been year on year growing at what seems like an unbelievable pace. How much did you raise? Sorry. Oh, we raised 25 million. Right. So 25 million to do 25 million.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, just not, not at once, like several rounds. And, and we took the business from, yeah, from zero to 25 million in eight years. Wow. That's incredible. And how big can it go now? Because I suppose- I mean, we can be like a 500 million brand, basically.

500 million revenue. Yeah, revenue. Because I mean, if you look at- Because you're working out the percentage of the market and how much of the 10% needs to take. If I say it, I mean, if you look at some of the biggest brands, this is actually what they do. So, and one of our huge edge is like we are in skincare and fragrance,

which are like the highest value categories. So it would allow us to even like stretch a bit further on that. Wow. And so I think for entrepreneurs watching, I think the most interesting thing about you, you weren't from fragrance, you weren't from beauty, you sat down with a business partner who was a friend and you said, let's conquer a market. So like, what would you,

what would your advice be to young, not necessarily young, but new entrepreneurs looking to disrupt a market? Like, how do you do that? Know your audience. First main thing is like know the people you are selling the products to or the service. It's like, because at the end of the day, it's the clients that makes you. So you have to know, you know, why they buy and why they quit, is it come back? Why is there into and both in terms of product and branding, it's

really like, no, your audience and be focused. So say no a lot. Like I'm known to say no like a lot. Like I'm the one that said no. It be in between the both of us. I'm the one that says no. In between the both of us, I'm the one that says no. Is that like no to new categories, new products? No to new categories, new products, new world sailors. Sounding very Parisian right now. But the thing is, it's easy to sort of fall into the trap of saying yes to all the

opportunities and being focused is also saying no to like when you start as an entrepreneur and we are a scale up now, we were a startup. It's like people want to talk to you. So you're invited to stuff, et cetera. And being focused is like, no, like what is important is my job, my family, my friends. That's it. Jimmy, I'm not saying that's for everyone, but being focused is also like being able to think like, no, I don't need to go to that conference. Like I know it's a startup thing, but like it will not change my business.

Just like, does this thing will change for my consumer? And this is why like we stay away from like corporate press for so long. Like, yeah, you're like a cosmetic industry mag, but like my cons, like my client, like it doesn't read that. This is going to second this. This is exceptional advice. Yeah. but like my client like it doesn't read that. This is, can I just second this? This is exceptional advice. I 100% do the same thing at Heights. And I think this is the point that people don't do enough.

You do get invited to everything. There is a time and a place. Actually, when you're starting up, it can be very helpful. When you're starting up, it can be very helpful because you maybe need to meet those investors and you maybe do need to meet those people that can Maybe help you with that thing or that thing, but you also have to really figure out when like you said

Is this gonna help me sell to customers? No, you're gonna buy to do all these talks and in the world that you're in for example Chris You doing a talk can be massively valuable in so many ways You can get customers for the crater accelerator and you're in B2B. Not for the audience, but yeah. No, no, but genuinely for doing talks, the right people and the right audience, they might be absolutely perfect for you.

In consumer, the stages that we're at, almost, you could, 99.9% of them are totally a waste of time, even the ones that sound like the best ones, because they are just never gonna move the needle for your revenue, your customer base. your customers are rarely in those rooms. You're like 15 million and you're like four years in five years in or something. Four years. I mean similar thing. So how do you market to men? Like where are men buying from? And I imagine probably it's very similar to you. I bet the retention on both your products is

phenomenal. Yeah retention is good. So the point is we two acquire and acquire at a good price because I mean, you can acquire at a bad price and then like the lifetime value will be bad. So- And you can acquire cheap customers and that's always- Exactly, yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

That's a very good point. And I mean, the insight was very easy. Men do not look for cosmetics or fragrance. So you have to interrupt them. Where do you interrupt them? On social media. Cause I don't know, at the beginning, I didn't have money to be, to do TV. So, I mean, the only way to interrupt was like paid social.

And because it was, I mean, it was this, I come, as I say, I come from, from the digital marketing background. So from fashion, journalism, digital marketing, and, and I was just like looking, you know, at Google trends, I was looking at the volume of search of, you know, moisturizer for men. It was like so low. It was so low. And I was like, okay, so they don't really care what they buy, but they

want something better and they don't look for it. So the only way to reach them is through social media. So we sort of build the team around creating content and, you know, amplifying content and just to interrupt people. So every time I have like, I meet people and they're like, I've seen you on YouTube and I've seen you everywhere. I see you a bit too much sometimes. And like, that's the whole point. It's like, because if I don't do that, you will never look for us. And that means you're my potential customer. Yeah, totally. And do men, I'm only thinking about how I buy things. But do men like to buy things bundled? Like, has it been easy for you to move from skincare to fragrance, for example?

Are the same customers, because I know with you, for example, they've moved from your first vitals products to your new products quite heavily. And so is that something you're experiencing that skincare are moving to? When you say bundle, you mean like bundle of the same product

or bundle of different products. Different products. Basket. Yeah. So what we created at the very beginning was what we call routines, which are sold as kits. of different products. Different products. Different products. Basket. Yeah. So what we created at the very beginning was what we call routines, which are sold as kits. Because if you don't know what to use, buying like a routine is super easy. It's going to be like, I'm going to get a cleanser, a moisturizer, and like a scrub.

And this is called the face kit at Horace and it has been like the best selling kit at the very beginning. It tells you what to do. And people sort of repeat on individual product and they buy different stuff but this one for skincare. But if you look at the categories of fragrance or deodorant and stuff like people buy just one product and they are fine with it. But for skincare because I mean you need to clean and you need to moisturize.

And sometimes you have like, I don't know, you have like very dry skin or you have like wrinkles or you need like an extra step. So it's easy to bundle. And for us, it's also like the main way to do promotions because we don't do a lot of coupons. We don't do a lot of, we don't do sales. We didn't do Black Friday, for example. Yeah, we don't do a lot of coupons we don't do a lot of we don't do sales we didn't do Black Friday for example yeah we don't we never do that we had like a great week why though why is that because I mean it's this is no collection it's not like it's not like a fashion sale where you need to do do you do discounting throughout the year yeah we have like kids yeah so you

have we have kids and we do a bundle disc yeah we have been the list on it's not like a huge is going it's like five to fifteen percent you're incentivizing but exactly exactly Nicola Kilner on who was the CEO of SEM the ordinary etc the other day and we're talking about like discounting throughout the year, Black Friday, and how 66% of products are cheaper at another time of the year anyway. So it's all a farce.

Yeah, exactly. Smoke and mirrors. We are very, very like, we have like a very good value for money. So like you can get it anytime you want. And to be honest, we are also very good value for money because we are happy to have like a smaller margin on a DTC level. I mean, if you take like the cost of the product

and the retail price compared to most brands, we just do less. But because we are DTC, we capture more of the value. That's the sort of balance So it's like, you have like a very good product for a very good price all year long, like will not do more promotions. And, but again, it's like bundle is like more of a skincare stuff. And then yeah, people repeat individually and they go through different product.

So that's, I don't think that's a men's or women's stuff. I just think like, it's just easy to get everything just with a 10 percent off. Yeah. So who are the brands you look up to? None. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is like my usual answer, but I'm going to like think more. No, if I if I look at if I look at men's category in beauty, none, because I'm, there is like, I mean, Harry's is, but Harry's is interesting up to a point where they don't do the same thing as we do.

They are interesting because I mean, it was the first or one of the first like men's grooming brand that took off online and then move like wholesale. Yet they are like specific category and they don't do retail. They just do e-commerce and wholesale. Whereas we do wholesale, e-commerce, retail and several categories. So it's still a good inspiration. But from a brand point of view, yes. From one point of view, it's interesting because I mean,

it came at the same time of Dollar Chef Club, for example. And Dollar Chef Club crashed. I mean, they sold that. It did look like, why are you bringing out Harry's? Dollar Chef Club's killing it. Like, how are you guys ever going to succeed? And actually, the answer was luxury, quality, pricing. Exactly.

Protection. Yeah, art photography, lifestyle imagery. Because Harry's is profitable. Dollar Chef Club was not. I'm not sure the brand still exists, but it was interesting though, because at that time, there were no one. And Glossier is a huge inspiration as well. well, because I mean, it was like the first beauty brand that was started 100% online, very focused on brand that was able to work across categories as well,

which is something very, very rare in beauty because in women's beauty, people, uh, women tend to be loyal to a brand per category. Instead of moving from skincare to haircare for everyone. It's like I buy Olaplex for my hair, I buy like, I don't know, I buy Rideau for my fragrance and I buy the Ordinary for my skin. Whereas men, we are loyal to the brand across the category I was thinking I'm probably after this show gonna buy all of your products and it's one of those things where like if I have a good experience with the product I

probably will buy it forever yeah it's actually not a man thing it's so no no no men are men are lazy about cosmetics yeah because this is a category we are No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no computer for that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought a hair purifier for my place. My mom, my wife doesn't want you will not say me. I'm going to say it again because I said my mom instead of my wife. That's pretty weird. So that was bad. That was bad.

So I bought a hair purifier for my place and my wife has not unpacked it for two days. She wants me to instead it, which is basically plug it, but because it's like, she doesn't care. She doesn't care. So we are loyal to a brand when we are lazy. And the good thing is like men are lazy in cosmetic and fragrance. So, and like the good good thing is like I knew that because I've talked with like so many friends and people.

Find the black t-shirt that you like. We talked about the other day. You know, I buy mine from Arquette. And where'd you get yours from? Arquette. Yeah, yeah, so there you go. And like, if you find them and you're like, yeah, I like the fit of Arquette, I'm done.

You just don't put the change. They have to kind of do something impressive to upset you if you just change that. Yeah, exactly. And say again, so it was very, we are lazy. So it was like, okay, once they are hooked up on our ass, how we can make sure that they go from categories to categories and product to product.

So this is why Glossier was like a very interesting example because it was like a woman's brand that was able to do fragrance skincare and makeup. And they are very good at skincare and fragrance, which is like kind of an amazing thing because I mean, who does that? Guerlain, Lancome. That's it. So they were like a huge inspiration.

And then it's mostly like fashion, menswear, not fashion, menswear brand. So because in the way they talk and operate, in the way like, for example, Carhartt is able to speak to so many men being so broad. And at the same time, they own the streetwear, like Supreme owns the streetwear as well. So they are like inspiring in a way that you can be huge, have like a huge brand and like own a category in a way that no one knows. Where's Carhartt from? It's actually an American brand from Detroit but the Carhartt we buy is like a licensed version that is from Germany. Oh really? Yeah. Because Supreme is American brand, but he's British founder.

Yeah, James J.B. has a British founder. This is like a literal lesson on branding. So if you listen to the whole episode back and you think about how to launch a product, it's fascinating on how to think about the customer. So now you have an unbelievably loyal customer base. You've got men who are incredibly, you know, won't churn from your business, I suppose from a business perspective.

So incredibly loyal and you've got an incredible brand. You're expanding, like what's on your mind day to day now? Like what are the things that you're focused on for expanding the company? Two things, Fragrance and UK. So we launched a second Fragrance and it took off in a way we have never seen since the first launch. It's the number one product.

It has been sold out once. It will be sold out in two weeks again, probably, because we don't have enough. Wow. And I knew that we had things to play in Fragments because we had the first one that was launched in 2019, just before COVID in October. So really like, worse timing to launch the Fragments. But like, you know, and it's sort of, it has been built into being like the top three best selling products.

So like, okay, maybe there is something. So we launched. All time. Yeah. Wow. So I mean, when you say, I mean, I say yearly, not all time, but yearly. And it was like, okay, this is like something is going on. And we had like, you know, clients coming into the stores saying like, I want a fragrance,

but I don't like this one because you just have one. And I think it's fine. I mean, it's normal just as you need more. So we focus, I mean, I've been focusing a lot on that. And for two reasons, first, because I still like do the product and I do fragrance with just Elise, who is the R&D director, we just do that on our own. No one validates anything but us. Wow.

we just do that on our own. No one validates anything but us. Wow. Um, and also because move, not moving, but like growing into fragrance, change the business. It changed the business because you are perceived as more premium because it's fragrance. So what does it mean for the brand? Does it change the way you do wholesale?

Does it change the way you do content? Does it change the way you do content? Does it change the way you use media? And it does because you're more, you're perceived as more premiums. You need to act like it. You don't need to change, I mean, we don't need to change the whole playbook, but it means that, you know, certain, you know, wholesaler we were with, is it still the right place to be that now we do fragrance, you know, the way we do certain things online, is it still, you know, we still need to do that on Instagram and stuff. So it's a very interesting moment because we never thought we would do fragrance to be honest, it sort of happens really by accident. I mean a lot because of Elise because she graduated from like the best place

in on video on Earth for that. And so I saw for us always more like a men's grooming brand. So it was like very, very clear, but being a men's grooming and fragrance brand, even though it's the same category, it changed things. So I'm focusing a lot of like, what does it mean for everyone and how I can make sure that I voice it a lot in the company. So the mindset shift from being men's grooming to being men's grooming and fragrance. And like, I'm going to say that now.

So, you know, I had the question beforehand from you guys. And I was talking about it with Annie, which is like our global communication director, and he was saying like, okay, you can say that and that and that. And I was like, and one of the thing he says is he talked about the product in a way that works for grooming, but doesn't work for fragrance. And this is like an interesting, very specific point. It's like, I need to work on changing the mindset of this. Everyone think as Horace in the company as like a men's grooming and fragrance, because in the eyes of the clients, that's okay. Like if like four of the best selling products are two fragrances in the eye of the clients,

that's okay. But in the mind of the company, it's different. So focusing a lot of that and focusing a lot of developing the UK. And so developing the UK is how we can, of course, be big, but we need to find what are the channels. So in France, we started e-commerce, then we move into retail, then we move into like Monoprix or high-end supermarket, which is the only supermarket we will ever have. And then we move into pharmacies. So this is a play for France. In the UK, we started e-commerce. We were on Mr. Porter, we are on enclosing.

So we are like on, you know, high-end menswear store. But we don't wanna go to Waitrose. Booth is interesting, but we don't want to go to Whitehall. Booth is interesting, but it's too soon. So what do we do? And so we launched on Amazon and because in the UK, 55% of the online men's beauty spending is on Amazon. 60% is the US, 55% in the UK, 35% in France. So, I mean, we didn't need Amazon in France,

but we need it in the UK. So it's just how we can find the channels, which will be different than France in the UK and how we can scale it. Now we know we can scale e-commerce, that's sure. But how can we do that in retail? How can we do that in retail? How can we do that in Amazon? That is fascinating. I have a feeling you're going to do incredibly well in the UK.

Because I've obviously, I watched, literally watched Creed do so well. Yeah, you've got a great inside track on this because you actually built so many. I mean, there's barely a luxury brand that you guys didn't build. Websites for us, you've been so close to this stuff actually it's so weird you've got a really good second sense of it yeah. Like left it all behind for sure but like worked with everyone from like the you know like Bugatti, Asimov and all of them the yacht brands, the plane brands but then from an econ perspective and Net-a-Porter, Mr. Porter, like launched or built did the SEO, did the paid for everyone

but there's few stories like Creed where you go from something that was doing like, I think in the first couple of years, it was like low-ish millions. And now it's like absolutely enormous. The e-commerce at Christmas was absurd. Aventus was like every Christmas present a guy was buying. It was like wild.

But I feel like your plan is exactly what we would have been talking about at the time. Are there any like specific stores, individual stores you would target now? Surely Liberties and... Ah, that's a good question. Like Harrods. That, I mean, I would love to be at Harrods at Liberties and Selfridges. The thing is they don't have space shelves for men. They have space shelves for fragrance.

I'm surprised about Harrods. I mean, if they have like very, very small shelves, but actually men don't go there. Send their personal shoppers there, I suppose. I mean, yeah. Probably. But moving into fragrances and scaling that category will allow us to be considered by Liberty, by Selfridges, by Harrods in a way we were not before.

And much like in France, I mean, in France we are in one department store, which is Galerie Lafayette, but even though Le Bon Marché, which is sort of the Harrods, the local Harrods, are into us and they've come to us several times, they don't know where to put us. Because we do men's grooming, but when we do men's grooming and fragrance it sort of opens up where we can be sold because they know how to operate men's fragrance, they have creed. So it's like I have creed, I can do the same. That's like a masterclass in DGC. Amazing. Right. It's been a massive pleasure.

Thank you so much for coming and sharing the story of Horace. Yeah, cheers. Thank you. That was like a good talk. If you're doing business internationally, you should check out Wise Business, the app for doing things in other currencies. Wise Business is the only account you need to manage your company's international money with ease. You can pay and get paid in up to 40 currencies globally, without the headache of multiple accounts. Here's what makes Wise Business incredible. Fast payments, direct integration with platforms like Amazon and Stripe, and seamless connections

to your accounting software. With real-time tracking and 24-7 security, your international finances stay protected and under control. Even better, there are no hidden fees, no marked up exchange rates and no subscription costs to eat into your profits. You can get started with Wyze in less time than it takes to make your morning cup of coffee, whether you're launching a new venture or scaling globally. To learn more about how Wyze could work for your business, visit wyze.com slash business.