Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S10 EP31: Jacinda Ardern

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

Joining us this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) is the former Prime Minister of New Zealand - Jacinda Ardern. You can buy Jacinda's brilliant new book 'A Kind of Power' HERE About the book: From the former prime minister of New Zealand, the world’s youngest female head of government and just the second world leader to have a baby whilst in office, comes a deeply personal memoir chronicling her extraordinary rise and offering inspiration to a new generation of leaders.Jacinda found out the news that she was pregnant with her first baby right before taking office in 2017, then had to announce this whilst new to her role as Prime Minister, and took just six weeks maternity leave. On her return, she had to just make it work - juggling sleepless nights and having a small office room converted into a nursery in New Zealand's official government building, The Beehive.  Parenting Hell is a Spotify Podcast, available everywhere every Tuesday and Friday. Please subscribe and leave a rating and review you filthy street dogs... xx If you want to get in touch with the show with any correspondence, kids intro audio clips, small business shout outs, and more.... here's how: EMAIL: [e-mail] Follow us on instagram: ⁠⁠⁠@parentinghell⁠⁠⁠  Join the mailing list to be first to hear about live show dates and tickets, Parenting Hell merch and any other exciting news... MAILING LIST: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠parentinghellpodcast.mailchimpsites.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ A 'Keep It Light Media' Production  Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Rob Beckett. And I'm Josh Willicombe. Welcome to Parenting Hell, the show in which Josh and I discuss what it's really like to be a parent, which I would say can be a little tricky. So to make ourselves and hopefully you feel better about the trials and tribulations of modern day parenting, each week we'll be chatting to a famous parent about how they're coping. Or hopefully how they're not coping. And we'll also be hearing from you, the listener, with advice and of course tales of parenting woe. Because let's be

honest there are plenty of times when none of us know what we're doing. Hello you're listening to Parenting Hell with Millie. Yeah. Can you say Rob Beckett? Rob Beckett. Can you say Rob Beckett? Can you say Josh Widdecombe? Can you say Parent in Hell? That's a good one. I like that. It's my four year old daughter Millie who has wanted to do the introduction to the podcast for a long time now, so here it is.

I've listened to the podcast from the beginning and I've had many embarrassing moments when listening, laughing slightly too loudly out in public. From Amy and Millie from Chichester, West Sussex. Lovely stuff. There we go. Lovely, lovely stuff. Josh, is my hair getting too long?

No, I think it's good. Keep it going. How long would you go? I think I'm about as long as it can go really at this point. Yeah, it's growing fast. The sun does do that after my holiday. How's your daughter with brushing her hair? Can I ask this? She doesn't mind doing it to herself, but she gets annoyed if we try and brush the knots out. Yeah, so that's the situation. I had a bit of a nightmare the other day where I was doing it and we couldn't find a brush. Now, Lou is the

main default parent, I'd say. So does a lot more of the legwork, especially with school runs in the morning, in particular this year, because I'm on tour a lot. But there is no station for the nice brush that they like the detangling brush and the detangling spray, which I think is mental, because every single day the kids, the girls need a hairbrush. What do you mean station? Well, there's no place it goes.

So there's no place where the detangling spray and the brush that they light. Every morning I'm like, is there a brush? And we're looking for a brush. And I say, well, where's it? And it just gets left wherever it was last used. So I've created a station for it in the downstairs toilet. That's where it stays when we finish using it. Because I had a nightmare, I was trying to brush

her hair with like one of Lou's horrible brushes. And then it weren't working. So I put water on it. And then I've got my kids top all wet and stuff like that. And then God, because they don't brush it before bed. And then anyway, and then I found out they were, well, it's all right for you because of your hair. And I was like, what? And it was like, you've got lovely. You've got lovely hair that a woman would want. Oh, and I was like, I don't know. I don't know. It feels like we need a feels like we need to work on a Photoshop of a few women with your hair to see whether it

would look good. Well, no, but it's a type of hair I've got that grows fast and it's very thick. Yeah, it's thick. Well, it's there's it's fine. But that grows fast and is very thick. Yeah. Is it thick? Well, it's fine, but there's loads of it. It's fine, isn't it? It's certainly fine. It's not frizzy and it's straight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very straight. But this is apparently, yeah, this is news. And I'm wandering around with lovely hair and womanhood blonde.

Oh, wow. And I don't even appreciate it. No, exactly. And you've been growing it out. You've been cutting it short. You can give a flying F. I've been treating this lovely hair and woman exactly. And you've been growing it out. You've been cutting it short. You can give a flying F. I've been treating this lovely hair or woman would want with disdain and disgust. Disgust. Josh, should we do a quick bit?

We've got a big guest this week. We've got our first exp. Oh, sorry. Yeah, you're on your way for it, mate. We've got proper politicians and proper journalists listening to this. World leader, world leader. Yeah, there will be,

the people are looking for headlines here. So they'll be deep diving to this. World leader, yeah. There will be the people are looking for headlines here. So they'll be big diving on this. Normally the Daily Mail are listening in so they can write something about, you know, I don't know, Paddy McGuinness or someone we've had on today. Hello, if you're from The Guardian. Hello, if you're from the New York Times. The Spectator.

Yeah. We've got a world leader, ex world leader. Yeah, exactly. Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand. And she had such a good time that it probably won't be our last. I'm thinking Obama. Oh, no. I'm thinking.

Oh, you think you would get more world leaders off the back of this. I'm thinking Bush. I'm thinking Mandela. PM Ardern had a child while she was the Prime Minister. She was pregnant when she got elected. Exactly. And you're gonna find out all about it. But before we do that, for the hardcore serious journalists that are listening here to get some headlines, why don't we talk about people that have had sex

in public places that are enclosed, but very large. Yeah. And let them really know what this podcast is all about. Exactly. What have we got? Sex in large public places that are enclosed. Dear Rob and Josh, you asked listeners about stories about the biggest place you've ever had sex in. This story is from many years ago when I was with my ex-boyfriend

who had connections to the Prodigy. Oh. We were living abroad. The Prodigy were touring. I love the band. He got in touch with them to ask if we could have tickets for the gig which was at a big festival. That's outdoors. Well we're asking for indoors, let's see what they can do.

We were given backstage all-access passes and I bet you were and had some pretty good drinks with the Prodigy who were all very lovely and charming. When the gig was about to start we climbed up into the rigging on the side of the huge outdoor stage, similar to the pyramid stage at Glastonbury. Oh my word. And stood on a little platform around four to five meters high behind enormous panels of LEDs. We could see the crowd, but they couldn't see us. The project began the opening track below us, which, as you know, is always

insanely loud. The lights blazed and the crowd erupted. And then my boyfriend lifted up my mini skirt. And we had sex as 100,000 people. Oh, God. This is panicking me. I don't think I'd like that. That was a shag to remember. Sounds like a 90s man. That was a shag to remember. Oh my god sounds like a 90s man. That was a shag to remember. And while not technically indoors, it was the biggest place I've ever had sex in. It's a 10. It's worth it. It's worth it. I'm now I'm now happily married with two amazing children. I wouldn't go back to my party days, but they're fun to remember. I'm going to remain

anonymous if that's okay. Love the show. I think that's good. It's an ex boyfriend, not even the husband. I mean, God, now there's husbands that listen to this just looking at their partner in the eye. Oh my God. She ever mentioned about the time she saw the prodigy? Didn't she have an ex boyfriend that worked in music PR? Oh, well, that is exactly the warm up you're looking for. If you're from the New York Times, there's your there's your headline. Oh, my God. What? Oh, this is this is this is another one. But I think this is not okay. Because this is people have just come in with sex in public places. The idea is no one's

there. But it's a big empty room. That's the funny thing. And I'll be warehouse is empty. Yeah, exactly. That's what we're looking for. That's what we're looking for. Not just perverts in the fucking park. This can tell you. Hi, Josh and Rob, please keep me anonymous. Yeah, because the police will be in touch. I love the park. I listen religiously every week, even though I don't have kids. In the early 90s, I had sex in Wembley Arena during a Rolling Stones concert.

Oh, no, that doesn't count. How, I hear you ask, well, it's surprisingly easy in a large crowd when you're both the same height. And let's be honest, nobody around you gives a damn when you're crushed together like that. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Arena in the sound tech. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's what we're looking for. I'm more of a sex and an air bridge guy.

Yeah, yeah, that was that was a good one. That was what we're looking for. Okay, more of those. Can we have a bit of a palate cleanser before the guest? Okay, I'll try. But all of us are quite weird. Here we go. Weird phobia.

Hi, Robin Josh. I'm currently listening to your episode opinion juice. And I thought I'd share my weird phobias. I'm definitely afraid of Heinz baked beans and ketchup. Oh, I don't do not know where they started or why, but I cannot be in the same room of either of these things. Wow. And I thought of it makes me violently throw up. You can't be in a car. The smell is vile and so it's truly ghastly. Look, I'll be honest with you, Summer

Grace Mason, you're the problem here, not the sauce. The smell is vile and the sight is how ghastly, even writing about it is making me fell out of easy. You've got to sort that out, Summer. You can't live like that. What about the kids? I'd love to know if she's got kids and if they've never had beans on toast. Does she mean just Heinz? Surely she means General. Do you know how expensive baked beans are, Josh? You know, you don't really know, you they've never had beans on toast. Does she mean just Heinz? Surely, surely she means general. Do you know how expensive baked beans are, Josh? You know, you don't really know, you know, I know that the shopping's gone up

and our weekly shops a lot more expensive than it was, right? Because it sort of goes up as a whole, you sort of don't really notice the individual things. I popped into a Tesco Express to buy four tins of Heinz baked beans. £4.25. That is expensive. It's ridiculous for beans, isn't it? Yeah, that is. Beans are supposed to be a cheap dinner. One pack and it takes you over the worst part it's a great value pack on it. I'll be the fucking judge of that mate, don't you tell me.

Well you should have taken it up with a politician when we talked to her. Oh, lovely stuff. While we're back, palette cleansed and guest introduced. You're welcome. Get cleansed and guest introduced. You're welcome. Jacinda Ardern, it's quite a journey for us from basically starting in lockdown to now having proper world leaders on the podcast. Although Rob met Keir Starmer a couple of weeks ago, didn't you? Yeah, I did meet Keir Starmer a couple of weeks ago, but you are our first ex-world leader to have on the show. We're very excited, Jacinda, so thank you very much. That's quite the position. First ex-world leader to have on the show. We're very excited to see you, Dersa. Thank you very much. That's quite the position.

First ex-world leader. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I've been, ex normally has negative connotations, but if it's a world leader, I think that's allowed. You're not a current world leader anymore, but you've still got the memories and the experience. And the trauma.

We can be honest here. Do you have any idea who the fuck we are and what we're doing? I haven't had a chance to read your book, but I have heard your podcast Yeah, anything anything that just brings I think a little bit of comfort Yeah, alongside some light relief to parents. Gosh, what a welcome thing Yeah, and obviously huge laughs and now yeah Robson when you in New Zealand Rob, I'm in New Zealand in

End of September beginning of October. So you're more welcome to show if you want Well, let's get started how How many kids you've got? One child, is that correct? What age are we dealing with? I have one daughter. She is six, going on seven. Yep. Wow, okay.

So similar age groups to us. I was about to make that kind of total cliche joke, going on 13. Yeah. Yeah. But it is that age though, where they start to get a little bit chippy back at you, don't they?

There's a little bit of sass. Yes, and the thing that I'm finding the hardest at the moment is just, you know, in response to that, I sound so much like my mother. Like this is my, this is the era in which I'm officially becoming my mother. And I didn't think that would happen. But yeah, I think it's just at some point when you're kind of shocked at a sassy moment, you're like, oh, who was that? Exactly.

And like, for those who don't know, and I'm sure most people are that you became pregnant when you were the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Oh, yeah, was it just before? That's right. That's right. Before. Oh no, just before. Was it just before? That's right. That's right. Just before. Oh, that was a good time. Just before. And then you had a baby and then you were the leader and then Covid came. Now, that's quite three quite huge things to happen all at once for someone. And you're the second person ever, was it, to have a child in it? That's right after Benazir Bhutto was the first and then and then me and Niamh was born on her birthday which was quite something but

and I mean the timing you're absolutely right was I mean some might say you know what a beautiful miracle others might say what on earth, because timing wise we had just had the election. But of course, in New Zealand, with our form of elections, like the German system, it's not always clear who's going to be our, but a former government who will have a majority. And so we were in the middle of coalition negotiations. And those last for us about two weeks.

And it was during those negotiations that I found out I was pregnant. I just wish I could see your face right now. This may be too much detail but it was you nipping it in a lunch break to do the test. Rob, so your book which I've started reading is brilliant and I was going through and I was like which I've started reading is brilliant. And I was going through and I was like, there's so many things here that are so mad. But the first thing is the opening is you sitting in a bathroom at your friend's house

during that waiting for your pregnancy test to come through. And you also don't know at that point whether you're gonna be prime minister of New Zealand. That's correct. Yeah. I mean, I remember at the time whether you're going to be prime minister of New Zealand. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. I mean, I remember at the time thinking you couldn't write it. You just could not write this. And then, you know, I mean, also when it came to the obviously our party was unsuccessful.

We did form a government. I was sworn in as prime minister. But you know, I knew that that wasn't information. The fact I was pregnant wasn't something that it would be wise to share. No, it would be a mistake to bring that up during the go-chats. It would be a mistake. Thank you for electing me. I'm just going to pop off for a bit of maternity leave now. And also you know it was not easy for me to get pregnant. And that was one of the things I remember at the point when it came to announce that

I was having a baby some 20 weeks later. I couldn't give that context. You know, it would have been enormous oversharing at that point to talk about our failed IVF journey. But I keep wondering, you know, New Zealanders, they're going to think that my planning and my management is appalling. But I couldn't give the context. So how long had you been trying for? It would have been at least, it would have been at least, I'd say probably about a year,

but very early on, because I was older, I was 37. Very early on, I'd sought a bit of advice and been told that I wasn't gonna do it alone basically. Too stressed. Turns out the answer was you needed to be more stressed. It's one of those things you then subsequently learn that's what everyone's been told, ah you need to calm down about it And it's just such, you know, it's such painful advice to receive because of course you wanna be relaxed,

but it's a pretty stressful thing. Yeah. Calm down about it is like saying like, just calm down and go to sleep when you can't sleep. It's of no use to you. I feel stressed. Just chill out then. Okay, I'll do that.

I've not thought about that. That sounds good. So yeah, that was how I came to be a mum while running a country. And in the book, the day you're sworn in starts with you, no one knows at this point, and you're throwing up because you've got morning sickness. And you just can't go, you can't not turn up, but you can't say what's happening. Well, it's because it's, and you'll appreciate this, the opening, the official opening of parliament is the speech, includes the speech from the throne. So it's where the Queen's representative at that time, the Queen's representative, the

governor general will give the speech from, will give the speech from the official chair and the legislative chamber. It's all, there's a lot of pomp and ceremony and my job is to sit to her right facing the audience of every single MP in Parliament and then the key members of the defence force and the judiciary standing behind me and the entire time I'm thinking how many steps it is till I can get to a porcelain bowl in case I need to throw up. And that goes on for ages those ceremonies. Oh yes. So what do you think would have happened if you'd thrown up just there?

It's a good question. You must have thought what would I do in this situation? Oh absolutely, there was a lot of time to think that through. I mean, I was not well that morning, so I had been thinking about it. What would I do? And I thought I could claim nerves, but that's not great. You don't want to look like the nervous provenance to do. Yeah, that's not a good look. How's the new PM doing? She's just vomiting on herself next to her throne.

Yeah, she wasn't even making a speech, she was just sat there. Dodgy takeaways? Celebrating our snark, really? No one would have believed that about me, unfortunately. Yeah, so it crossed my mind. But luckily, I mostly was just crippled by nausea. Most of the time I managed, yeah. was just crippled by nausea. Most of the time I managed. Yeah.

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Grocery delivery on repeat for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at pcexpress.ca. So there's some mad details. Like the first foreign trip you had was to somewhere that had and this was a bit of a nostalgia like hit of a word or I hadn't even remember, but somewhere that had Zika. Zika, yeah. Which obviously for people that were pregnant was said to cause birth defects. That's right. And you can't say that you're pregnant. No, no, no. And so I was just a walking deep bomb.

I just stunk. And it was my first, I'd been officially sworn in in October and this was November. So it was very early on in my time in office. I was learning the ropes of APEC and the East Asia Summit. And that's I was you know learning the ropes of of APEC and the East Asia Summit and that's and you know they're running you the different bilaterals and multiple meetings and

speaking events and all I could do was just make sure that I was absolutely covered in insect repellent all the time but at the same time you know you've got that list of things you're not meant to eat when you're pregnant I thought I can't just hand that list over to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Because they have these very fancy state dinners when you're at these events. And so they love to put on the best, best cuisine, the best seafood they have on offer. So I remember thinking, I'll just tell them I'm vegetarian when I travel. I'll just say I'm a vegetarian when I travel. I'll just say I yeah I'm a vegetarian while I travel. I'm vegetarian while I travel. I don't know. I'm the prime minister of New Zealand. We trade beef. The idea of being like oh I don't touch this stuff. I couldn't do that. But I remember sitting at this banquet when

they everyone they pull out and they pull off these dish covers and there's this beautiful lobster tails, you know, sitting all around me and then they do the big reveal and I literally have a plate of turnips and tomatoes. And I thought, oh well, at least I can at least I can eat it. Well, also in some cultures, it's rude not to eat what you've been given and stuff. And if you're going around the world, you don't upset people if you're trying to get a trade deal going. No, you're absolutely right.

I mean, that's why in the Pacific, you end up drinking a lot of Carver and things like that. And also alcohol as well. If you've been offered that, you can't drink that either. So you're swerving. Were you doing that thing that, you know, like, before you've told your friends or whatever, like, we do that thing where, like, we both get a drink, and then like, we'd swap it and I'd drink roses, and you know, like, all people would go to the bar

and get the like, you'd say you've got gin and tonic, but you've just got a tonic. Were you doing that? But at NATO or something? When you're actually on the road and doing the job, people don't bat an eye on it, you're not drinking because most, actually to be honest, many leaders don't. Yeah. Because you've got such an important and difficult job. So that was never a problem. Probably more of an issue was when I was, before I was prime minister, I dealt with a lot of speculation over whether I was pregnant. If I was ever spotted not drinking at a bar, that became an immediate point of speculation, which might say a little bit about New Zealand's perhaps past unhealthy drinking culture. If they say something like, soda and lime, got to be knocked up. And then on the drinking thing, so you went for the scan in secret and you told you had

to tell your what they called security or whatever. So how did it work? Well so I went and saw a GP so I had to tell my GP and she quietly contacted an obstetrician that she knew from university because New Zealand. And then, you know, we just planned our appointment. But I didn't want to tell my police detail that I was off to an obstetrician because, you know, there's a reasonable number that cycle through. And it's not that I didn't trust them. I just sort of, it was going to get more and more difficult the wider the circle got.

So I just told them I was off to meet a friend after hours. And so off we popped to his office. So they thought you were having an affair? No, my husband was with me. All right. Just so you could be here. Right, OK. Just going to say.

So yeah. And so I took a bottle of wine with me just to make it look like we were having a little chuff. I had props. Oh no. And also as well, obviously, as it develops as well, like, you know, you're very conscious about any bump protruded and stuff like that and women get so much unfair criticism. Even if they've had a big lunch, they'll be on the front page of a paper going, is it

a baby and all that. How did you feel like you've got the most possible job anyway, you've got to go out and always look in control, always have the right answer, always look well turned out, because even any world leader, if their tie's a bit off or they're, you know, there's something up, like you've got to do all of that. And then you've got to worry, are my clothes still fitting because I'm growing a baby inside me. Yes exactly. So how was that to deal with? Luckily I was somewhat lucky with timing because I was I was sworn in in October. No it was actually summer, I was sworn in in October and then off overseas and then you know December and then summer. Then we had the summer break so I was out of the public eye for a few weeks before the

announcement and that was lucky because by the time people were coming back to work and we made the announcement, I was 20 weeks. And were you worried about the announcement? I was really worried. Because there's no kind of judge, you know, normally in anything you can go, well, this has happened before. Do you know what I mean? No exactly, exactly. You know there was no way to say look, you know other than obviously Benazir Bhutto, but there was just, you know there wasn't a wide range of examples to reach from.

There had been, of course you know I was lucky and that New Zealand had two female Prime Ministers. So you know that I actually never felt that my gender was part of the debate or the discussion. And that's not the case in every country. So, you know, bless New Zealand for that. That was not up for discussion. But I had the added complication of being on the younger side of leaders. And then, of course, the younger side of leaders. And then of course the pregnancy. And so it meant that I really felt

that there was no room for error. That I've been given a lot of grace, a lot of grace. I was young, a woman, and now I was having a baby. I could not let the pregnancy look like it was affecting me. That was at least in my mind. But New Zealand was amazing. You know, when I made the announcement, I was full of worry and the outpouring of joy was amazing.

It blew me away. Yeah. Yeah, well it's really inspiring to like women because that's, you know, you've basically done it at the most highest level of stress really, where most people in their office jobs sort of have to keep it a bit of a secret for a bit, but they might be high up behind a desk. They're not being marked

around the world photographed and videoed every time they appear. So it must be very inspiring for women of New Zealand, especially to see someone managing to be the Prime Minister and be pregnant. Yeah, well, one of the things that I really also felt strongly about though, is I didn't want to give off this air of, you know know I'm doing everything independently on my own because I didn't want to set this healthy and unreachable bar. This idea that yes, women can do everything and therefore they should do everything. Women can but they should have a support crew. It's such a difficult ask to assume that you would be doing all of that on your own and I never was so it never felt real to me to be able to to

make it look like I was doing with it doing it without any help. We were very open about Clark who now my husband but then we weren't married at the time so Right. It never ends. The worries never end. I mean, we owned a house together, we were very settled. But we were very open about the fact that he was going to be the primary caregiver. And so I think he was as much a role model as I was. Because he was out there openly alongside me, you know, at the UN and other places caring for our daughter. So he was basically the default parent and then obviously you had time off when the birth. How long was you off work for then, maternity wise? Six weeks.

Six weeks. And were you off off? Yeah, I mean, he said no. I mean, this was, this is a great question because when we first came in, one of the things we campaigned on. If you'd been invaded, you wouldn't have gone have gone I'm sorry I'm on maternity leave. Get the stretchy combats out, I'm going back in the office. Pack the pumps. We'd extended pay parental leave.

This was a big deal for us campaigning and then we came in and it was one of the first things we did was put in the new laws to start extending paper into leave to six months. Everyone was like, well, is this how long you're clocking off for? Oh, right, yeah. And for me, it was very clear that wasn't going to be the case.

Yeah. I had to choose a number, so I chose six weeks. And I would still get papers, so I still knew what was going through cabinet. If there were any particularly difficult issues, I would often be on calls. And when are you doing that during the day or like are you up at night?

Like, cause my memory of the first six weeks. I mean, what's day and night? What is it? You're in a continuous space and time continuum. It never ends. So mostly just whenever the calls were happening. I remember I would read, you know, Clark has videos of me just, you know, reading papers and my foot on the baby carrier. Yeah, so yeah, just whenever I could.

And did any kind of big things break that were like stressful at that point? We did. We did have one issue going on. It was from the outside world. It wouldn't have seemed significant, but it took up a bit of time. And I don't remember anything that felt like, oh, I need to drop everything and be back there. I was lucky in that regard.

And most of those things happened after I came back. And there were unfortunately a number of happened after I came back. And there were unfortunately a number of them when I came back. Yeah. There's a really, like there was a bit in the book what was really, I think inspiring in the way that maybe, where you're talking about how you're there and you're like not failing at breastfeeding,

but there's that pressure on women to breastfeed. And you were dealing with that and you were dealing with kind of the lack of sleep and you just brings home to you all of the all the same things that everyone deals with and you kind of think oh maybe if you're X or you're Y you can get out of these things but that is the situation. It's the great leveler. Yeah it is the great leveler. I mean one of the reasons I wanted to write the book was,

I think we just live in a day and age where it's very easy to dehumanize one another. And I think especially for people who live in the public eye, it's very easy to assume, yeah, that life is, or some experiences are somehow different. But you're right, it's a great leveler, and it's such a shared experience. And something strange happens,

you know, that all those rational thoughts you have about the way you might be when you have a kid, you know, I thought that I wouldn't obsess about certain things. I became so obsessed with successfully nailing this breastfeeding thing. I just became so obsessed with successfully nailing this breastfeeding thing. I just became so fixated. Did you have troubles with it then? Because my wife, Lu, had a lot of trouble with the breastfeeding. So was it not happening at all? It was just never sufficient.

I was just never going to be able to do it on my own. And so part, it just felt like the worst of both worlds because A, you're not managing to do it on your own, but then you have none of the convenience. You're still lugging all the kit around and all the sterilizing stuff around. And so I was pumping in the back of cars in between meetings and I would take this big giant Tupperware container with me so that I could empty water and sterilizing tabs

into the pot well of the car so that I could empty water and sterilizing tabs into the well of the car so that I could clean everything in between. And so you like pumping and stuff like that, like in the next room to Donald Trump or something. So I did it at the Pacific. I did it. Yes, I did it at the Pacific leaders forum. I was in the next room to all the Pacific leaders doing that because I was away from me. I remember being like outside of bread factory and I was meant to be going in and being very worried about whether the windows were tinted because I was inside the vehicle and everyone was lined up waiting for me. Oh, it is like something from a movie. Do you know what I mean? It's like a Hollywood

movie about the president or prime minister. But you can imagine like Reese Witherspoon or someone in the role. Yes, at least in that scenario they'll pixelate you if you have these flashes out. It feels like it could be a comedy film actually, a comedy biopic. And then would he accompany with you with the baby then, your partner, on this travel or would he just stay at home? Yeah, so for the first meeting I was overseas, no, because Niamh was just a bit too young and it was a bit too short, but he came with me to the UN. But after that, Niamh kind of gave up on breastfeeding. And so on those occasions,

we'd just make a judgment call over whether she troubled. Yeah. Because I found Lou not being able to breastfeed obviously was quite traumatic for her and difficult for her to process in a number of ways, not just sustenance for the child, but as a woman, you know, there's all those different issues about providing the stuff. But I found actually it enabled me to have a slightly closer bond with my child at a younger age by bottle feeding and formula and stuff, which especially as him becoming the default parent, in a way, if she did go

on the breast and only wanted that, then that transition would have been even harder for him. So in a way, it might have been easier for him to be able to jump in with the bottle. You're absolutely right. It was one of the things that I tried to, you know, think, you know, I guess logically isn't quite the word, try and look for the upsides. And that was one of them because I could see that Clark would come over from where we had our home in Wellington and he would walk Neve over to the beehive where I'd be in time for feedings. And I might be in a meeting. So he might be waiting outside trying to keep her happy while he's waiting for me to be able to breastfeed and and it was so at the whim of of my schedule and I just thought this gave him so much more freedom

and 100% so yeah I did think about that when I was trying to feel better because by this point again I saw it as like some kind of failure. Yeah but as a dad it's so hard though to be that side of it because you're like start trying to ride a bike with the stabilizers on you can never get a full head of steam because you've all got dragged back and you know and then you don't want to go stop trying at breastfeed let me just do it because you don't want to tread on the mums tights so it's difficult on both sides. So difficult and so I guess I don't know with the with the benefit of hindsight you know when I think back on it now there was so much I was so invested in it yeah and it did take me away from things at the moment

it's easy to say that to someone though you know again relax. Just relax and let the baby that you grew inside you feed from your breast. Chill out, it's normal. Chill out. No one wants to hear it. Whether it's a family member, friend or furry companion joining your summer road trip, enjoy the peace of mind that comes with Volvo's legendary safety. During Volvo Discover Days, enjoy limited time savings as you make plans to cruise through Muscogee or down Toronto's bustling

streets. From now until June 30th, lease a 2025 Volvo XC60 from 1.74% and save up to $4,000. Condition supply. Visit your GTA Volvo retailer or go to volvocars.ca for full details. Did you find like, so it just popped into my head then that I remember, was it during the election or at some point in the UK? I think it was when we had our last election, Keir Starmer got in trouble with the right wing press because he said he was not going to work Friday nights or something. He was going to put this time aside for his family. And people were like, he's 24. I think he said he stops at six o'clock on a Friday and then he's done.

And that's a protected time. He's 24. I think he said he stops at six o'clock on a Friday and then he's done. And that's a protected time. For his family. Did you find, A, I suppose that you could do that and B, were you worried about saying stuff like that? Because this was, I thought, quite a normal, you know, from a parental point of view, I was like, that feels progressive, but he got attacked for it. I try and stop about lunchtime Wednesday if I get the chance.

But I think the thing that gets forgotten is the overlay that actually you never stop when you're prime minister, really, ever. So you might not be at an event or an awards or in a meeting, but you're always, you are always available. And what does that mean in terms of like, is that your phone going off or is that someone coming to you or? Well, it really depends on the scenario,

but phone usually, I can't remember a situation where I would ever, other than when you're in a, what they call a skiff, a meeting room that's designed not to have devices in it. So that would be for particular briefings or a cabinet meeting, you wouldn't have those devices. But otherwise, I can't think of any situations where I wouldn't have had my phone.

But at nighttime, for instance, if it might've been on silent, if I was needed, only one occasion did this happen, but I was woken up on one occasion by the torch of a police officer, and that was when- Oh really? Oh my God. Don't wake the baby!

Don't wake the baby! I was actually on my own that time, and so it was a little more, so I was on my own. Petrifying. And it was when Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth passed away. Oh wow. So of course she was, she's our head of state, and so a police officer came in to alert me to her passing because it

kicked off as it of course did with you and kicks off a range of really significant events. Yeah of course you know you're going to be needed out. Can I ask a question about being the Prime Minister? Obviously right you get into politics because there's things you really care about and you want to make a difference and you know change things and like anyone people have things that they're more into. Some people might really into the environment, some into the economy or whatever. How do you go to events like when you have to go something and you're bored shitless and you're just like, fuck this, I know I've got to do it, but this is painful. What do you do with your face? Because you can't be into any, all of it all the time. Do you know what I mean? Like any job there's days you're like, fuck this.

I'm going to make a general statement here, but I've still found this to for the most part be true with most politicians. You're right that often different things will bring you into politics and you might have a specialist area. But by and large, one thing most have in common is that they like people by and large, not 100% of the time. And for a lot of politicians, that's what fills their cup, what gives them energy is just being around people, seeing people do amazing things, being inspired by people, meeting people in the community, fixing other people's problems people raise and identify. And so, you know, even if it was an area where I didn't have much day to day, you were always having interesting conversations. And so, and it

helps because I do not have a poker face. I don't. So question time, sometimes it would all be on written all over my face. On that, because you are, and I mean, this is a compliment, really normal. Right. And I've met quite a few politicians from the UK over time. And a lot of them you go, you're quite odd. In the sense of you go, you're not as like this is a normal conversation. Do you know what I mean? But you've met presumably Trump, Putin, Boris presumably. What is it like? No, I take Boris out of the equation, but I'm going to stick my neck out.

I had bilaterals with all. Truss and Theresa May. Could you have managed to get in with Truss? Yes, yes. She wasn't there long enough, was she? No one actually has since pointed out that I managed to see all of them with about three to four weeks of the departure. And so what is it like when you're, so take the British ones out of the context, but someone

like Trump or Putin, who we know so much about, there's so much baggage with that, are you meeting them? Do you ever have like normal conversations with them? Like would Donald Trump say, how's your baby? Or would Vladimir Putin say something like that? So I think the one thing I'd say is that- Was there no small talk? That the examples you have drawn on, you know, they're not necessarily indicative of-

No. You know, what you'll be engaging with in politics all of the time. And people like Putin, he is relatively isolated and you would expect that given the circumstances he's put himself into over the course of his political history. And so no, you don't see a lot of chit chat, nor would you really choose to engage in it but most leaders, most leaders when you're not all but most leaders will have a one-on-one conversation with you that might over time become you know a bit more knowledgeable about your life. Others can be a bit transactional so it just depends on who the person is really. Did you have any that you were

like oh I can't wait to see them. It was like meeting a mate. Cause sometimes when I do gigs, there's certain comedians that I love. That'll be fun. Oh, thank God, Teresa Mays that. This is gonna be an absolute. Well, if you think about it, for the most part, every time you engage with a person,

you've got 10 people around you on either side. Right. And so you're having a conversation that has been witnessed and recorded. It's quite hard to break down barriers. But one thing I will say is during COVID, we were all reduced, of course, to phone calls. You wouldn't having those one-on-ones.

And one thing I noticed was, and it was regardless of political party, you'd get on the phone in the first 10 minutes would be like, are you okay? How are you going? Because it was so difficult, and you're almost having a universally difficult time. So that was interesting.

And Boris would have had kids around the same time as you, Woody. I mean, he's had kids about the same time as everyone. By the law of averages, but. I can't quite recall when he had his, but I was 2018. I reckon him and Carrie had a kid around there, didn't they? And who did the default parenting there between Boris and Carrie? I think it, 18. I reckon him and Carrie had a kid around there, didn't they? And who did the default parent in there between Boris and Carrie?

I think Carrie. Did he have to make a statement on that? I doubt it. I know. And that is interesting, isn't it? Because we've had Gordon Brown, I think, and David Cameron had kids, and Tony Blair, I think, maybe. And it doesn't come up at all.

No, no. And in fact, you know, the person who took over from me was such an active, hands-on parent. And I hoped that there would be the same assumption that he would continue to be as an active as an apparent as I was. Yeah. And I hope that carries on. You know, in New Zealand, New Zealand Parliament, it's a really, we had a speaker at the time I was in office, his name was Trevor Mallard, and he decided he wanted to make it as family friendly as you could. So he built a playground on the front of Parliament's lawn. Beautiful playground. He changed the rules so that if you were early on in your parenting, your

vote would still count if you were offsite having to care for your child. We had a big thing with that over here because I can't remember what her name was. Was it Stella Creasy or someone? She couldn't vote because she was pregnant or she just, they wouldn't allow her in with her baby or something. It was mad.

Yes, they would not. We also allow children in to the parliamentary floor. In fact, there's multiple photos of our speaker holding babies during the sessions, but you also can be off site. I tell you what, you'll like this humour. We've got some bloody babies in our parliament. That's a bit of fun isn't it? Accompany by the lifting of the glasses. You're not that confident in a punchline, the old glass is moving. Get the glasses moving. That's amazing, so you can still vote and the kids can be in the playground

and you can bring them in and out to vote. Yes, it tends to be in peace with smaller children who will bring them into the chamber. And did you, like, was there part of you that was like, I really want her to remember this? Like, because obviously when you're a kid, so you've got kids and I don't know, most people's first memories are like four, five, I don't know, three or four. And so are you thinking she's doing all these mad

things and she's not going to remember any of them? Yes. Yeah. Um, I did think about that, but I also wanted her memories to be such an abnormal situation. I wanted her to have still relatively normal memories, and for me to just be in them. Yeah. And so maybe you do that thing.

You know that where you think you have a memory of something, but actually you're just seeing a photo and a photo album. Yeah, yeah. So Niamh has got albums full of just me and her. Present mother. Look there I am. Did you ever go, let's get Pew in to hold her and get a photo of her? Let's try and get all the world, let's see what we can get. Let's try and get all the worldly, let's see what we can get. You know what, I think you're fine. I tended not to manipulate my baby. Oh, you're such a serious at your job.

And we also had this thought that I'd chosen the career my family had in us, so we were really careful about how much she was in the public eye as well. But we didn't ever sit her down and say, hey, mum's the prime minister. Never had that conversation with her because we wanted her to feel that life was just normal and possible. If you had kind of carried on for 10, 15 years, do you think that was actually a really good age to have a kid there? Because I think like, if you're, Keir Starmer's kids are teenagers, I think, and he's very clear about them not being in the public. Because obviously that's a point at which you're very self-conscious. Do you know what I mean?

And you're very, and your dad being prime minister or your mom being prime minister in your case is tough. Really hard. Is that getting slagged off? Yep. And I think, you know, certainly when I was in office, we have a Westminster style system. So you know what the debating chamber is like and the way that politicians can sometimes engage with each

other. And I remember really being clear that I wanted us to operate differently. And so for the time that I was in office, we pledged that we wouldn't get personal with one another. And I was really conscious of the fact there was a time when families were totally off limits, totally off limits, you just wouldn't go there. And I haven't given up hope that we'll return to that way of being for two reasons.

I think people would actually prefer that we stuck to the issues. And the other reason is you just don't attract good people to politics if they think they have to sacrifice their family to be there. So I hold on to the idea that we can still do that. Well yeah because you know the whole point of politics is thinking about the greater good for people but if you're not prioritizing the people in your own house,

how can you prioritize the country you know? Yeah absolutely and we should hold that standard for people on the other side of the chamber as well. How old was your daughter when you like left the the role as the Prime Minister then? Just before five. Just before five. And then since obviously your workload's not as intense as it was, how has the parenting been split? Has it swung back to you? Is it still more Clark or is it 50-50?

Still more Clark. It is still more Clark. And you know, they have such a beautiful relationship. I can see that there's almost just a touch of joy when mum leaves the equation. Are you the ta ha taskmaster then you think? No, I don't know. Dad is definitely the more exciting parent.

He's the more adventurous parent. I don't think it's said he's definitely not the case that he's, you know, you know, that he's less firm or anything like that. It's just he's the he's the fun one. Yeah, men are stupid, aren't they? That's a difficulty that I think women have is men are idiots and you get them together on a stag do and they will do stupid, stupid things. I love that I'm like, he's the fun one. stupid, stupid things. I love that I'm like, he's the fun one. No, he's like, I'm not an idiot.

But my wife felt that as well, because I'm like the fun one to my kids and stuff. But then like, I will be the one that will jump on the slip and side first before anyone's even asked me. And then they'll go, Mum, you do it. Mum, Lou will be like, no, no. So Lou's really grabbed the bulls by the horns. And we had to slip and side out the other day, on a hot day. Without being prompted, she just stripped to her bra and knickers and did it and they're going, mom, what is this? And it was so cool because it was like mom just being crazy and fun rather than being the one that they've

got her either encouraged to do it and stuff. So she's really sort of going for it. It's so funny because I know that I'm in that same, you know, I'm in that same box in Niamh's mind and the one time she points to me ever doing anything fun was when I was completely overheating and jumped into a pool with my clothes on. And it is like the one. The one thing.

I bet she loves it. But it reminds me of the boring mum episode of Blu-E. Not that every life lesson in parenting comes back to a Blu-E episode, although it does. Yeah. Boring mum in the swimming pool. I don't know if you've ever seen this, but there's idea that mum's always the one that's worrying about the sunscreen and the pool toys and the towel and the snacks, but actually that makes life better as well. Without that it would be a terrible time to pool.

Have you had like, is there situations where you've like gone to, because you must have kind of, you know, there must doors open and stuff. Have you been able to do stuff like, you know, when you said Bluey there, like, meet the guy from Bluey with your kid and stuff like, it's quite a fun thing in a way. On the other side of it, there's the negative of being the daughter of the Prime Minister. But also, there's lots of opportunities you can go you know I'm going to take you to see this or have you been to stuff with her? I again I marvel at your ability to maximise the parenting Meg, put you in the front line of the room. That's how I would approach her. We've monetised our children

for five years now. Rachel Reeves got free tickets to Sabrina Carpenter over here. I'm still living. Hey, we were out of options. All the politicians shut theatres. We didn't have a chance. I would have loved to perform in New Zealand, but someone said no. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, no, not so much. No, I actually can't say that we've done it. Maybe it's because

there's always that expectation that if you're doing something like that, you then do the photograph and do the Instagram post and I've never really done that. And now you're kind of out of it. Yeah. Like, because you were a young Prime Minister, 37. So there's not many people that have come to being Prime Minister at that age, is there? No, not too many. You've got Sanna Marron. Oh, the one in, is she up in Finland?

Yeah, so she was the PM of Finland around the same time that I was, so she's out now as well. But no, you're right, there's not too many. And so you do come out and think, what useful thing can I do now? Well, it's like a footballer or someone who goes, what do I do now? Yeah, you've done the thing everyone normally does at about 16. Footballers tend to be more well liked than politicians. Not at every stadium. So yeah I mean I you know thankfully in some ways you know because the focus for me was just how can I do something useful and good in the world? And if that's your objective, then you can find lots of ways to feel useful once you leave. So I have this book now and a big part of that for me is talking a little bit more to people who might suffer a bit of imposter syndrome

or doubt that their style of leadership has a place in the world. So just being able to share that message a little bit more is a really fulfilling thing to do. Because in the book, where is it? Let me find it. Bless you for reading it by the way. And I can see you had to do it on a PDF as well. We had these galley versions, but they didn't do them in the UK. You've dedicated it to the criers, warriors warriors with an O, not warriors as in, and huggers. So, because you don't come across as like a generic politician. Do you know what I mean?

And you talk about- Well, especially in the UK, they're all bred at Eaton and Oxbridge and they're emotionless because their parents abandoned them at six to the boarding school. So they've got absolutely no soul left. Naming no names. Naming no names. Naming no names. So this is how I know when you say not a typical politician, this is a compliment. Yes, yes, yes.

You have emotion and love in your eyes, which we don't get to see very often. You're smiling. And you don't seem defensive about everything that's ever said. But do you feel like you kind of represent a different side of politics and you want to kind of put that out there with this book? Well yeah, I mean, you know, one of the reasons I said no to becoming a politician the first time it was ever put to me, or the way, you know, one of the reasons when I was first suggested that I might become leader, because that's of course, you you know another part of the story I only became Prime Minister

because seven weeks out from the election my leader decided the polling was too bad that he didn't think he could win and he quit and nominated me so I didn't see myself as leading in politics because you know I was sensitive you know I you know that's that's the empathy I guess side of me myself as leading in politics because I was sensitive. That's the empathy, I guess, side of me. I did tend to over-prepare because I sometimes thought that maybe I wasn't always the best person to be leading on an issue in the room. Those aren't things you hear politicians talk about because we have this assumption that to lead,

you have to command the confidence of others. And we assume commanding that confidence means you can never doubt yourself. I'd like more people who doubt themselves, the leaders, because it's a humility that we would benefit from. It means that you tap into experts and the best advice and you make the best decisions you can

based on all of the, you know, the work and opinions and preparation that you've done. So that's why I shouldn't be prime minister. I'm a gut guy. Just go with the gut. You can be gut, but just read a bit. No, I'm pure gut though. Just send out too much gut. I was going to say, informed gut, read a little bit first. No, no, no,s of straight first thought in. I tell you Rob, the way you do, what I thought wasn't there Rob, but you do have like, you do have lots of self doubt and I do think it's a different world. I'd say the comedians with the least

self doubt are the worst comedians. Yes. Every good comedian has got tons of self doubt and tons of doubt. Anything's got self doubt. Exactly. I'm gonna anything's got a sense yeah you're on top of it a bit more but this I mean I think this is the issue is actually most of the people that we admire and respect will have it just no one talks about it and they certainly don't talk about it in politics I have a certain freedom to do that they are really great empathetic leaders out there they really are but we're all the incentives that are focused on those who are on the more extreme ends, who are saying more inflammatory things. And so I just wouldn't mind

spotlighting some of the really good people who are still there. Yeah, I do think sometimes that sort of any sign of weakness is so jumped upon by press and politicians. Ed Miliband lost an election because he ate a bacon sandwich weird. I mean, that literally happened in this country. It was a photo of him eating a bacon sandwich weird and it was like, oh, that's over. There was an Australian politician who ate a raw onion, but that was probably a little more understandable than that race driver or two. Like an apple.

Really? Really? Oh, wow. They just snack on it. Yeah, I cannot even remember how he thought that that was a good idea, but on camera... Wow, that is mad A raw onion like it ain't no thing

Did he peel it? It was peeled, I'm going to see him I'm not fully convinced, but I take a peeled one over, fully covered My recollection is that it was, yeah there we go, it was Actually I'm not entirely sure, but there, no, it doesn't appear to be peeled, you can see the universe sticking. Oh, he's popped a shallot in there, fully shaved. Jesus. That's good on him. I think he probably felt that look quite alpha. Wow. Wow. Are you going around the world with the book? Are you doing a kind of tour? How does it,

because you're a world figure, this must be, it's quite a big, but most politicians books that come out are a thousand pages long, an incredibly boring self justification. But this is a- And this, you have just articulated why I was so hesitant to do it. I was like, ah, political memoir. But I thought, well, what about writing

something a bit different? Yeah. And that's and so you coming around the world are you going to places to kind of promote it how does it work? Yeah so I've got two weeks in the States at the beginning of June and then from about the from memory about the 11th of June on I've got several days in the UK and then a little bit of a Europe tour and then back to the States. Yeah. Oh amazing. Can people buy tickets to that? Is that like a live book Q&A? Yeah I've got, I actually think they might be sold out but yes. Oh respect, there we go, there we go. I was hesitant to say that because I think those are the only ones that are. Do a matinee, do a matinee, do the Rob Beckett, do a matinee. One of them's a matinee and one of them's an evening show.

And then, but there is, I believe that we've still got one at Oxford that might have, so I can... Oxford always sells badly. Oh no, don't tell me this! I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Your agent should have said to you, Oxford's always a slow seller. It's a tough sell, we'll be on BBC Oxfordshire doing a bit of local radio next week. I'll be with you. Joel Domi as well will be in the waiting room. You know what, you've made me feel better. I'll just be like, great company.

Oxford's a tough sell. Exactly, exactly. Your agent will say stuff like, they'll close the top tier, but it'll look full. So don't worry about it. It'll feel full. That's the main thing. You know what? Every single venue I've been like, what's the ability to bring in the room? Can we bring in the room? I'll ask a question. Since you've finished, is there things you've wanted to do with your daughter that you couldn't

do whilst you were the Prime Minister? And then as soon as that stopped, you went, right, we're going to go and do that now because I couldn't before because of maybe you scheduled or security or whatever Look, I mean in you know, just traveling The thing that I think I enjoy the most now is just traveling with her as a family Because before we always had people with us. Yeah, so you never just on a little family trip together You will always hit the company of other people So that is the thing that I enjoy the most is that we just travel now as a family and that's that's great

Do you? Excuse my ignorance on how it works. Do you always have security for the rest of your life? I mean, it's a good question because it varies greatly So in the UK, of course, you you keep having for, I don't know how long, but in New Zealand I think Lesh Trust has 45 minutes. In New Zealand, you go, you slot back into normal. Right, right. Eventually, there might be a little ease down or wind down.

Because how do you have a row about, like, you know, when you've got a little baby, sometimes you've not slept much, you've got a busy day and, well, you said you to do that and you didn't do that and you're having a little bit of a rut of Barney and it's always awkward even in front of like your in-laws if you're having a row but if you're in front of like the cabinet or security. You send and out the phone comes and you're passively aggressively texting. Oh you're doing it in messages then? You just don't really, you just don't. I mean you don't have the time alone, except when you're in the car, perhaps driving yourself places.

You can have a little bit of a back and forth. You can turn to the security and go, right, you were here. Who said what? That's a missed opportunity, actually. It's been such a joy to speak to you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I keep saying the words the book. What's, let me get the title of the book. It's called A Different Kind of Power.

A Different Kind of Power. And when's it out? It's a great title. Thank you. So it's out on the third of June. The third of June. Yes. And so I believe for the purposes of listeners, we will have pre-recorded this for release

at the time of the book. It should be released. It's certainly not live. So out now. It's out now. It's out now. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. You know what you're doing with your promo. Oh we've got one final question. And when's Oxford? That's the key. I'm getting an Oxford day out. Yeah, I know. Let's sell this out for you. This is my opportunity because I feel like now a challenge has been issued for me to... We should come to the Oxford. We should make a pilgrimage, Josh, to the Oxford gig. Oxford's on the 15th of June.

15th of June. There we go. It's been a joy to speak to you. We always end with the same question, which is what was Liz Truss like? But this is the first time that I'm excited about the answer. No, no, we don't actually ask what Liz Truss was like, but you can tell us if you want. But I am interested. But this is the first time that I'm excited about the answer. No, no, we don't actually ask what this trust was like, but you can tell us if you want. But I am interested. I know. Well, this is the thing, I've listened to your podcast, I know that not to be true.

The final question is, so Clark, is it Clark or Clark? Is it Clark? Clark. I'm going to go Clarky, as I don't know him. It's because Clark has an E, it brings a familiarity to it. Clarky, Clark. I was going to go Clarky, I was like, I don't know him. It's just because Clark has an E, it brings a familiarity to it. Clarky, Clark. And so what's the one thing he does that's amazing as a dad? Do you think, oh my God, I'm in awe of him for that.

And what is the thing he does that you find? He gets up first every single morning. Wow, without fail. So as in, if she gets up before him, he's up with her. He gets up with her every single morning. Oh my word. And so I literally, this was, he's up with her. He gets up with her every single morning. Oh my word. And so I literally, this was, I know I'm lucky, but as Mother's Day rolled around, and I was in bed,

and Clark was up with Neve, I had to acknowledge that for most people, that is a treat, but he does that every morning. Oh my word. What a legend. What a guy. He is a legend. Every day without fail.

Probably the last time I got up, that it was, often we'll both be up. What a guy. He is a legend. Every day without fail. Probably the last time I got up, you know, that it was, you know, often we'll both be up. Yeah, but- Sometimes needs sleeping in a little bit longer. But if she gets up early or if she has a nightmare, it's always Clark. Does he bring you a coffee? He brings me a cup of tea.

Oh. You know how to win over the British listeners. I thought New Zealand was a big coffee place. We are, but we still love our tea. Yeah, no, I'm at one coffee a day and otherwise tea is my source of hydration. And what about the one thing that frustrates you a bit and if you was to listen, you'd go, yeah, it's a fair point.

He has a real problem with decorative pillows. Like an absolutely obscene problem with them is an almost push to violence against them. Yeah. So he hates them. He hates them. Hates them. And how many decorative pillows are we dealing with in your house?

Two. Are they everywhere? Two. I mean, it's not a big deal, but honestly, the rents. Well, I don't mind a decorative pillow on a sofa, on the bed it can fuck off. It's just another job before you get into bed and I launch it at the floor when I get in so hard. Honestly, they are projectile-drawn.

I have to remove anything breakable in the room because every single night these things are heft around the room. But you've gone down to two, fair enough. That's a fair spot. No wonder he's getting out of bed early, covered in pillows. Chopping over them, he'll claim. Trump hazard. I like this guy. Thank you so much, Cindy. Good luck with the book and it's on.

Yeah, it's great. It's such a good book. Oh, thank you. That was great. Lovely woman. Not a politician in the way where you imagine that you're gonna have to wring something out of them as they slowly go through a prepared answer. I actually feel like I got too overexcited in that episode for me. I just was so happy she was normal. Yeah. When you've got a politician and I'm like oh my god let's talk to this cyborg loser. Yeah. But she's actually normal. I've met quite a few politicians in our job, Rob. Well, in your job, I don't mean any. In my job.

You've been in my last leg, don't you? Because they've got to look like they care about disability benefits. Exactly, yeah. They'll be sacked again in another six months. So often you meet them, naming no names, and they aren't normal at all. They're really difficult to talk to. And they feel like, aren't you meant to be charismatic and kind of good with people? And they're not good with people.

That's why I love Australia and New Zealand so much. Everyone's so chilled out, Josh. That was the bloody PM. Yeah, great. PM riffing about pillows. Yes, please. Also, can I just say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for reading that fucking book for me. No, it's a proper good book. It wasn't as politicsy as I was worried.

No, you did well there. So thank you. Yeah, there we go. As Frank Skinner said, I've never done a podcast where it seems like one person's prepared and the other one's done absolutely nothing before. And that was for Frank. And that's what keeps us going. And I tricked him into thinking I'm prepared as well. But actually, I just studied his life in a weird detail since I was about 12. Right, Josh, I'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. How do you know if you're worrying too much? How can you mend a broken heart? Does peaking

at school ruin you for life? I'm Susie Ruffall, a stand-up comedian and someone who has always experienced anxiety. And I've written a book, Am I Having Fun Now? Considering some of life's big questions. Featuring bonus insights from the likes of Charlene Douglas, Sarah Pascoe, Elizabeth Day and Dolly Auderton. Am I Having Fun Now? Is out now in hardback, ebook and audio.