Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S11 EP12: Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Joining us this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) is the brilliant novelist, journalist and broadcaster - Elizabeth Day. **Trigger Warning** We discuss topics of fertility, IVF and miscarriage in this episode. 'One of Us'  by Elizabeth Day is published by 4th Estate on 25th September. You can pre-order your copy here. How To Fail with Elizabeth Day is available every Wednesday on podcast platforms and YouTube: https://link.chtbl.com/hHntV5ys   Parenting Hell is a Spotify Podcast, available everywhere every Tuesday and Friday. Please subscribe and leave a rating and review you filthy street dogs... xx If you want to get in touch with the show with any correspondence, kids intro audio clips, small business shout outs, and more.... here's how: EMAIL: [e-mail] Follow us on instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@parentinghell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ A 'Keep It Light Media' Production  Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Volvo retailer or go to Explorevolvo.com. Hello, I'm Rob Beckett. And I'm Josh Willickham. Welcome to Parents in Hell, the show in which Josh and I discuss what it's really like to be a parent, which I would say can be a little tricky. So, to make ourselves and hopefully you, feel better about the trials and tribulations of modern day parenting, each week you'll be chatting to a famous parent about how they're coping.

Or hopefully how they're not coping. And we'll also be hearing from you, the listener, with your tips, advice and of Of course, Tales of Parenting Woe. Because let's be honest, there are plenty of times where none of us know what we're doing. Hello, you're listening to Parenting Hell with... Stop splashing me. Rose, can you say Rob Beckett? Rob Beckett.

Good girl. And can you say Josh Whittickham? Just Whittickham. Good girl. Proper accent that, Rob, isn't it? Is that Adrian in the bath with Rose? How is Adrian since you've left him? I don't know.

He's not caught in contact? No, we haven't really. I don't know. I mean, I can drop him a text now if you want. We old neighbours had to see you go. What do you mean? Well, because when we left, it was really weird. We got on with our neighbours.

There was an old lady and then there was a lovely family. We miss Pauling. we miss Pauline and Pauline, we still text Pauline. Oh, that's nice. But when we left, the family were like, we went around there once for a bit of food, and I think they came around there once for a bit of food, like over like a five-year period.

And then when we went left, it was like, it was really English and polite. It was like, oh, you must come around for a bit of food, like once you move. And I was like, yeah, cool, stop the numbers again. And I was like, it's never going to happen, is it? I didn't come around next door when I live there. It's difficult, isn't it?

Goodby. I think goodbyes with people that you vaguely know is fucking weird, because you're a sense. going. It was like kind of the goodbyes with parents we knew a bit at our kids' school. And you're essentially going, anyway, I'm never going to see you again in my life. We made polite conversation for three years. And now we're never going to see you. Yeah. Returnity. But I think we're better at that because of our jobs. I constantly are working with different people all the time. I'm always in a different location. Like, it's not like where some

people, if you are in the same job with the same group of people for like 10, 15 years, you get the familiarity, but I'm, my life's constant change, really. Do you know what I mean? There's nothing, it's normal, I think, which makes it easier. Who was that? We didn't do the names. Hi, Rob, Joshua Michael. This is my 26-month-old daughter, Rose, saying your names while chucking half the

bathwater over me after a week in Ibitha. Wow. With the kids, I can't, don't get Ibitha with the kids. No, offence to this. Fuck that. I don't get Ibitha. He probably lives near my house from the accent. Ibitha can go, fuck itself in my view.

Didn't you love it? You used to go over time. No, Rose loves it. Oh, right. Here we go, let's unruvel this. Let me just finish this. She's recently added all right geese to her vocabulary, much to the disgust of her mother.

Big fan of the pod and have been listening since the start. Stay sexy and relatable, Harry, from Croydon. Croydon knew it was near me. 394 months, was that 35? Yeah, I'm, Ibithas not for me. I think it's overrated. No, I mean, I went to the worst bit.

No offense, Joe Swash and your stagdie, but like, San Antonio. San Antonio, Ocean Beach, and then just wandering around. Going to that shitty cafe where you watch the sunset go down when they play music, shoot me in their head, honestly, cannot bear it. All the places in the world with suns, fucking sunset everywhere, they clap it. Terrific.

Yeah, well, there we go. There we go. Anyway. I did enjoy it back in my drinking days, but. Yeah, you can't, it's not a sober place. It's not for me these days. What's for you? Forget, like, if you, say Rose and the kids were, for whatever reason,

you couldn't see him for like two months and you were allowed to, like, go, somewhere. Are I working? No, you've got holiday. You've finished your work and you go, right, I'm going to go on a holiday. And then you're going to have a relaxed holiday, first of all, after the talk. Then you're going to go and do something you've always wanted to do that may be a bit more move around and so. A relaxed holiday would be, um, money, no object, relaxed holiday. I do one of those Caribbean island style, St. Lucia style things on the Nalphi Coast or something. Westingley's got a bit cricket as well, what are you down there? Just, just kind of Lill and just chill out. Yeah, you're pretty Western, you're a pretty Caribbean guy.

Yeah, yeah. Pop on some of Marley. Yeah. A big old blunt on the beach. Yeah, have a bloody blunt. And, you know, making friends of Americans and saying, yeah, I love vacationing in the Caribbean. Yeah, I would, yeah, yeah. And then my, what I'd want to do would be I'd travel around all of Europe's brilliant cities, taking in football matches, but also enjoying the architecture. Do you know what, Josh, that is mine as well.

but I'd go enough America for the river plate of the juniors. But yeah, travelling the world, watching football matches. I love, do you know what I love? Stadia. Yeah. That's right. I didn't say stadiums. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you know what? I'm impressed because I would stay stadiums. I don't know if stadium's correct or not. I think it is probably, yeah. If I see a football ground from the train, I just, I'm like a fucking dog at a window. I just love it. An airplane, when you see a football. when you go over a stadium

there's something happening in it in an aeroplane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, love it. We went, when we come back from Lisbon, we went over Wembley and Oasis was on. Oh my God. I was on the wrong side of the plane, but for the other people that had a good view.

Oh, my word, yeah, they could hear it. I'm going next week. The groom has heard the podcasts. Who that? The groom of the wedding that I'm leaving to go to Oasis has heard the podcasts. Yeah, and what's he said? He's okayed it.

Yeah. Yeah, you think it's great. The way I view it, Rob, is... You prefer to go to that in his wedding. No, no, no. That is the truth. Let's stop the bullshit. He's probably a great guy.

Not just his wedding, any wedding. Exactly, but the truth is you'd rather... Look, this... I'm sure they're a lovely couple. But apart from the mums and dads at the wedding of the groom and the bride, I'd say 90% of the people would stop it for an oasis ticket. well I couldn't

this isn't this isn't this is any target in there this is any this is any wedding um yeah I the problem is though you're

the main topic of conversation for you at that wedding is going to be because I forget how many people listen to this Josh it's actually meant to a lot of people come up to me and talk to me about what's going on

I just chat to you and I forget that a show goes out I shouldn't really have talked about the oasis thing. But now the cat's out of the bag. But the way I view it, Rob, is I was meant to be doing a tour show that night, right? It was the week before the tour was announced, so I could still move that tour show. I wasn't effectively any second.

Where were you going to be before you moved? I think it was going to be either Eastbourne or High Wyckham. I can't remember. You've already disappointed the people of those towns, so why not disappoint some close friends to go on watch? Well, so I moved it because I got. an Oasis ticket, right? Yeah.

Before anyone who bought a ticket, I wouldn't have done it if it was on sale, just to be very clear. Yes. So had I not got an Oasis ticket, I wouldn't have been available for the wedding at all. Because... So racist is what's allowed me to go to the day of the wedding. Exactly. So actually, they're getting more Widdickham... They're getting more bang for their buck by me going to O'RACIS.

How long are you actually at the wedding for? I don't know what the start time is. I mean, Rob, I shouldn't say, I shouldn't say this. I really did like that first cast album. I think you may have to sacrifice cast for your friend. I think so. I think sacrifice.

Richard Ashcroft. No, you've got to be in there for Bittersweet Symphony. That is mesmer. Does he end on that? Yes. So you want to be in there for that latest. So you can watch that. Then there's a little break while Oasis gets set up.

And then they're on at 815. Now, at the wedding, is it any other famous, people at this wedding? Yes, there is. Okay. What kind of, you don't have to say who? Is it one other or a few? Is it a bit of...

It's much higher than me. It's a much higher level than me. Really? Do you say in bleep here? Right, okay, so they are, they are famous, but I'd say... They're American famous. They are American famous. But what I'd say is pound for pounds on the streets of London and the UK,

you're more recognisable or known to the average joy that wedding. be nans and aunties and uncles of that wedding that don't know who those two are but they'll know who you are. So this is what I say. Right. You treat that like Donald Trump visiting the Royal Family. You shake every hand. You give him their little anecdote. You tell them what Jimmy Carl's like. You slag off Alex Brooker and Adam Mills. You go around. Alex Brooklyn will be there to be fair. So you didn't name him as a famous person. Well, you asked for, I wasn't going to name them all. I was naming the most exciting. All right. But what I say is I think you go out there and then just win over the party win over the wedding and then you slide out yeah yeah yeah yeah you've got to

go front foot forward do you know what i went to a 40th birthday recently stick stick some money behind the bar no i'm not going that far i'm not going that far you're a bit tight he didn't even do that for your own fucking birthday not going to do that for that wedding there's no way i'm sticking some money behind the fucking bar yeah but you'll leave a legend i don't want to leave a legend I just want to leave. No, I don't. I don't. No, I do want to leave a legend, actually.

I went to a 40th. I was like, I'm going to go to this, give a present, get out, go in, find the 40th person. Yeah. Press the flesh. 45 minutes, I was there. Bang out. In and out of done. In and out done.

And that's fine. Everyone's happy. Have I ever told you the story about when at your wedding do in London, Greg Davis's shoe no i'll tell you i'll tell you we've run out of time now but on tuesday i'll tell you that story okay um we've got elizabeth day now she is brilliant but you know what some she's a very intelligent journalist and writer and podcaster that went to cambridge sometimes josh i panicked that these people yeah maybe quite dry i was proved wrong very very funny very engaging very normal very on it and very funny but also very important the stuff we talk about

and about fertility and IVF and children and stepchildren but yeah I really enjoyed it Josh and I was a bit like oh will Bobby B be able to connect with Lizzie D we did we recorded this backed about with Barry Hearn and we were like these are going to be two very different records and actually both of them were great we're great enjoy trigger warning on miscarriage miscarriage miscarriage fatality issues IVF, stuff like that. Or even if you applied for Cambridge and didn't get in. Yeah.

Because she did. Did really well. Josh. Trigger warning, if you haven't got a successful podcast, we do talk about what it's like to be in the successful podcast gang with her. Trigger warning if you don't have a wacious tickets, because we did speak about that earlier. This is Elizabeth Day. Shall I do the intro, Rob? Yeah, go for it.

Well, there's no intro. Hello, Elizabeth. No, Jim, I'll do an intro. Not just an author and journalist, but podcasting mammoth, bohemoth royalty, and one of the big podcasters in the UK and beyond. You really had to hit the podcast, so you couldn't just go just a mammoth, a behemoth. I'm glad that there was a second part to that label. Do you know what?

There's a reason we don't do intros. Fine. I'll go on Mangaro. I love being a beaumoth. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am, but what a mental way doing this. I just panicked. I've never done an intro before.

We've just interviewed Barry Hearn. It's very different. I love that intro. It was unique. How do you feel about doing intros when people are sat there? It's awkward, isn't it? It is awkward. I do do an intro for every single episode and actually writing the intro,

sorry to make you feel super bad, Josh. Writing the intro and researching, it actually helps me prepare for the interview. Now, having said that, I do do it in front of the person, and I get really nervous every single time in case I've got some salient fact completely wrong. And the other thing that I would say is that I think my intros can err on the side of gush because my podcast is all about failure and I want to get people to open up, I try to make them feel really safe. And sometimes the intro can be a bit like, you are the most amazing. proponent of said skill the world has ever seen. And then they well up and they're like, oh, that was so lovely. And then they feel more able to open up. So it's all a massive ploy. It's all a massive ploy. And you've fallen for it when I did it just here now.

I find, though, like, we don't do any intros, but we, that's mainly because we're lazy and amateurish. This is my version of it. My spin on it is that I think if you tell everyone who they are on all their CV, then the person you're interviewing goes into that sort of egoic shell of the person they present to be, as opposed to the real person that we want to get to know. Oh, here we go. Oh, now, that's profound. And that's also a criticism of the entire format of how to fail. So thanks for.

Absolutely, yeah. So what I've done there has made it even more awkward than just had made it. Yeah, I'm out of my egoic shell now. I'm just a vulnerable mess. You're just a slug. No more snail. You're just a little more. Speaking from two mammoth behemoth to one mammoth behemoth.

So you started How to Fail, which is a huge, huge podcast years ago. Did you, because we started this during lockdown thinking, oh, this might be something, it might not be something. When did you realise that it had kind of become a big thing? You're right. So I started it in 2018 when podcasting was, it's still quite niche. I felt like it took me a long time to work at how to listen to a podcast. And it was in that era.

You were a bit embarrassed to tell your friends that you'd started a podcast? I think it's more embarrassing to say it now, because everyone's got one. But back then, I remember I had to explain to a lot of people like, this is how you listen to a podcast. There's this icon on your phone and you just press it. And I launched how to fail because I went through a period of what felt like seismic failure in my own life.

And it was quite a selfish endeavor in that I wanted to find out how other people coped. and I was getting kind of sick of doing the sort of interviews I was being asked to do for newspapers and my background is as a print journalist and a lot of them as you will both know having been interviewed a lot by print journalists are quite formulaic and so I wanted something sort of more free-ranging

and I thought it would last for one season I was going to do eight episodes, put them out into the world and that would be it. And then I think it was when the final episode of that first season aired that's when I realized it was bigger than I ever could have anticipated because I had thought I'd get maybe a dozen listeners and two of them might be my parents.

But actually there were thousands and I realized that people wanted me to continue. So I think the second season, I had people starting to come to me pitching guests. So that was sign number one. And then since then I've had a number of pinch me moments, but I think one of the biggest was interviewing Bernie Sanders in person. I had a really not very great studio then

because we were just starting and doing the visuals and you had to walk up four flights of stairs. Now Bernie Sanders is a very healthy individual, but he is also quite elderly. And I was worried by the time he got to the top flight, he was sort of gasping for air. And I was like, could this be the end? The ultimate failure.

Yeah, exactly. Final failure. It would have been good content. Don't get me wrong. That was pretty amazing. No, you're on fire, isn't it? So here we are. Now, seven years later, still going.

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Conditions apply. Scotia Bank, you're richer than you think. Yeah, that's what it gets to, isn't it? It does become a kind of thing where you're like, it becomes a bit of a runaway train in that sense. Do you know what I mean? I do. I do.

I want a bit of cliche. But like in the sense of once you've got to, a successful podcast, it's not like a TV series where you go, I'll just do a few a year. It's a real thing in your life. Yeah, well, not having done a TV series, I wouldn't entirely know. But I do think, you know, when I started doing How to Fail, I made them seasonal. So I'd do seasons of eight and then I'd have a gap and then I'd do another season. And I was entirely in control of it. It was like a cottage project. Yeah. And now I'm so, so, so grateful for how many people listen and download and how big a community it has

reached. And it has really changed my life in the most impactful ways. And we've gone from being seasonal to always on. And it does sometimes feel like, I'm just going to be doing this until the sun burns itself out. And I'm grateful for it at the same time. But as you will both know, it is a commitment. And I think a lot of people assume that doing a podcast is really easy and you just sort of wake up and have a chat with your mates. And I know that's very much your approach, but with me, the BMOth I am. Sometimes we don't wake up or chat. But you both know it's actually harder than it seems. And in order to keep producing something that I want to be worthy of those people who give up time to listen, who might pay to subscribe,

who are going through something really difficult and just need to get a little bit of comfort on the other end of an airport, I never take that for granted, so I want to produce something that's good. So, yeah, it is a pressure, but it's one that I accept willingly. You've got such good morals. I don't think any of that.

I do. I do. Don't worry. I'm even it for the money. What do you think, Rob? Me, honestly, until the other day, when someone tagged me in it, and I forgot we did a podcast.

Because in my head, I just talked to you on a Monday, and then that's it. Then I just get on with my life. I wish I'd done that. Why didn't I just discuss on a podcast? or I was just chatting to someone I love. Well, Rob doesn't love me, but thank you.

Oh, no, I've grown to love you. I've always liked you. Oh, that's good. You haven't always liked me. Elizabeth, can I ask a question? I saw something when I was doing some slight research, which I don't always do. You've got 10 godchildren.

Now, I don't want to embarrass you, but I've actually got 13. It's gone up since the last time I wrote about it. Yes, I have loads of Godchildren, and I really love it because, and this is part of the reason I'm so moved that you're having me on this podcast because I am not a parent in the conventional sense and I have spent years trying and failing to have my own baby and I'm at peace with it now and I've let it go but one of the amazing side effects of that is that a lot of my friends have asked me to be a godmother and I think it's because they think well, she's got lots of disposable income

that she's not using on her own progeny and maybe she'll be good for work experience one day. And even if that is why they've asked me, I'm very grateful because it is such a beautiful thing. Either of you, Godparents. I'm not. No. What?

I think... Why is I'm pinging up all the Godchildren out there? You're like the tech pros. You've nicked them, aren't you? You've licked them with Godchildren. Can I ask, like, Godchildren in their traditional sense, Have you renounced Satan? Yes.

13 times. 13 times. You hate that guy. What's your problem with him? It's almost suspicious. I have to keep renouncing him. The lady does the chest too much. Actually, I have to say, I've only done that once because it's more of an honorific.

Well, that's what I was going to kind of say. It's like you imagine it in the old sense of not to put too bleak an edge on it. But one of the things is if it's, if it's a lot of the thing. the parents die, you look after the children. What is being a godparent and are they different kind of relationships, the 13? Yes. You can't give a fuck by seven, can you? No offence to your godchildren, but first one, you're buzzing. Second, this is fun. Three, look at me, four, well, five, six, Jesus Christ, Christmas is going to kill me. I have to say my first one does have a special place in my heart. You know, I was writing her little postcards when I was on holiday and

she's just turned 16 and just on her GCSEs and I'm super proud of her. But they all are individual relationships and the way that I see it is I send them presents. That's basically, that's the extent of it. I will be really great at sending them a present for birthdays and Christmas. And part of the reason I am so militant about that is because I had two godmothers who I love dearly, but they weren't always the best present givers. and my older sister had godparents who gave her fucking amazing gift. I was just always so jealous.

And so it's a promise I've made myself, along with promising to renounce Satan, is to be a very good gift giver. And now some of my godchildren are old enough that, you know, I can WhatsApp them and I have an independent relationship, and I'll meet up with them for tea if they're in London, and that kind of stuff. And it's really, really lovely.

What month are you starting the purchase of 13 separate Christmas presents and how much are they personalised? Honestly, that is one of the biggest events for the year and it is a logistical nightmare. And I think it's 98% of the reason that I hired an assistant. Because like you're set up at home, you've got two leases as well and then your husband's got three children from a previous relationship.

So there's a lot going on. Oh my God, there's so much going on. And also for someone who is, are nauseating people pleaser. So I've, I've got this really inbuilt pressure to get the perfect gift for every single individual so that they like me more. I've had to slightly let that go now. And I, I need them with you in Josh. I used to have this idea that I would start in a very organised fashion, kind of beginning of November. And then there'd be like a sort of Hollywood movie montage, like a Nora Fron film where I'd be getting like,

curlicues of red ribbon and beautiful themed wrapping paper or I'd really enjoy it and I'd make some mold wine and I'd put on some Christmas cheese. That never happened. It was always a mad, frantic dash in the final weeks for Christmas. And then I discovered an incredible website, hashtag not an ad, but it is called Wicked Uncle. And you can go on that website and you can search according to age and gender should you want to. And they come up with really, unique and original presents so i use that for a good few years yeah because i once my daughter say she was five she got a birthday present in october from a couple and then about a month later i was buying a christmas present for a five-year-old and i typed into amazon presents for five-year-old girls

and the first thing that came up was what my daughter had received a month earlier and i thought absolutely bang to rights i know what you've done it there's no way that's a coincidence you've just literally put those words in. But this way... It's impossible, though, to buy that many presents for kids. That's what Martin Lewis says, just like, stop. You have to draw a line at Christmas to save everyone money. You're not always getting a good present.

Everyone just exchanging shit ones I don't want, so they don't look rude. Well, unless they have me as a godmother, in which case you're going to get a unique and much-loved gift that you keep for many years. Because your assistant's going to pick. Well, yeah, fair dues. I do think I might pivot to just putting, saying I'm putting my... on your side. I don't know. I think I'm going to have to stop when they reach 18, though. I think that's part of the deal. Did you not have a premium bonds pot that then you split 30?

Oh, my granddad. Sorry, what is the fucking 1960s? Could you not enter them in the pools? Is it bonds? Yeah, it is premium bonds. Premium bonds. And it might pay out and it all goes back in the pot and then you split it when they're 18. Yeah, but it's not the most exciting present to receive, is it? One word, ISA. Just get them an Icer. Can you have a few. Can you refuse to be a godparent and if so is it awkward you can i've not done that because of the informant of people pleasing and did you discuss whether there was like responsibilities because that is the thing is that godparents originally were we get the kids if something terrible happens right my understanding is that in modern times those two things are separate that's not legally

upstanding yeah i might be wrong in which case i hope i don't suddenly become a mum of 13 because that would be A tragedy in so many ways. I'd say if you became a mum of 13, because all of those parents had passed away, you'd be the prime suspect in a serial killer inquiry. I'd be having a look at my wicked uncle history. That's the base of Asian. Would you have me back on the podcast, though, if I suddenly became mum of 13? From prison?

Anyway, I think those two things are separate now. And so I have been asked to be a guardian for two of my godchildren, but not all of them. And so other than the whole renouncing Satan thing once, there's never been much of a discussion around responsibilities. But because my friends are so lovely, the more Godchildren I've accumulated, the more my friends have said, don't bother sending presents.

You don't need to do that, honestly. Just your presence is, presence enough. I ignore them and still send presents. Just create a rod from my own back because stress feels familiar to me. So I'm still sending the presents, but that's the only conversation that I've had. And how old are your kids from your husband's previous relationship? How old are they?

Are they still in a household? They're not. So they are, they're kind of, well, apart from one, adults now. I'm having to get used to calling the two boys men, which is a weird thing. His eldest is 21. His middle is 19 and they're the boys slash men. And then his youngest is his daughter who has just turned 16. Right. Okay. So she is obviously, she's still living with her mom. Yeah. To take that on, is, I mean, obviously everyone's aware of it. It is a really difficult hand to play, right? Because you don't know what your kind of, not what your role is, but because you're not a parent, but you are,

so have you got authority, all those kind of questions? Yes. How does that work? It is really challenging for every party involved, particularly the children who are the only ones who didn't have a say in this new relationship. And it's something that I'm really interested in talking about to other step-parents because we don't feel that we can speak honestly about it all the time

because it does involve so many other people and it is so specific. And what I will say about this particular scenario, it's not my first experience of step-parenting. And so I was very aware of what was involved. And when I met Justin, who is now my husband, and we met through Hinge, and we went on our first date, got on well, went on our second date. And because of the age we were. And because he had three kids, the dynamics got serious quite quickly. And we had a really honest conversation about his kids. And he said, the one thing they don't need is another parent. They've got two parents already. And he and his ex really do a terrific job of co-parenting. And they had sorted out their separation and their divorce way before I came on the scene. And it was a

very generous thing for him to say, and also it was very accurate because his kids don't need me to be a parent. What his kids need is to feel loved and secure and that their parents are going to continue being their parents. And I'm not going to interfere with that. And because they were a bit older as well, their dad and I have been together for seven years now. And so they were a bit older. And I've realized over time that my role is to be a support system for their family, is to be a support system for their dad. And then it's to show up as myself within that. Because I think one of the worst things you can do is to pretend to be someone you're not in the attempt to show that you're a really good parental figure. And I was probably guilty of that for a bit. And I think

it ties in with... That's hard as being a people please. Like you said you are. It must be really difficult to not be like, hi guys, can I get this? Can I get you back? You know what I mean? Yes. It is exactly that. You've nailed it. And I also think there was part of it. of me during those years where I was going through lots of fertility treatment and having recurrent miscarriages and trying to have my own child, I think looking back, there was part of me that was trying to show, look, I'd be a really good mum. And actually... Oh, no, there's someone at the door of my hotel room. Perfect, Simon.

Oh, God, just so sorry. No, don't want it at all. You're getting the maids there. The Beemoth is open up. As the Beamon opens up. What makes it feel better is you can genuinely feel the panic in his voice. Yes. Sorry.

What was it, Josh? A man who wanted to check the mini bar. Oh. I've only been in here for two hours. What does he think I'm up to? I can't pass midday. That was suspicious, isn't it? And you're sober now.

I know. It's a smashed four inches. He said we're concerned about you. You've taken a hotel room during the day. We think you might have fallen off the wagon. Sorry, Elizabeth. No, don't worry at all. Yeah, well, I think it was actually really liberating letting go of that

and realizing that I could be myself, not only that I could be myself, but that that's what would be best for everyone involved. And just for listeners to confirm, Justin is Justin Fletcher from Mr. Tumble, correct? What a terrifying, terrifying idea. He's a great parent as is. So let's go on to a, I was going to use the phrase fertility journey

and then I wanted to punch myself in the face because I think that's an awful phrase. It's awful, but it's also the best one we have and I use it all the time. Do you? Yeah. Okay, yeah. So how long did you try for for a decade? Yeah, 12 years.

12 years. Oh my word. And you suffered three mess carriages? Yes. That's really intense. Yeah. It's hard. Yes. That's what I would say is a difficult segue from the Mr. Tumble chat. Yes. I mean, I think you've been scrambling up hill since you've opened the door and a room. All I can say is I'm relieved he didn't turn up in five minutes. That would do it work.

that is a long time to go through with it. There must have been periods during that where you're like, is this worth carrying on with what keeps you going in that situation? Definitely. And I just want to preface all of this by saying, genuinely, I am so grateful to you both for having me on your podcast because you can so often feel excluded in a world of parents when you're going through fertility treatment.

And when I was going through it, You know, I started when I was 32, and I was married to a different person then. And at the time that I was trying and failing to hold onto a pregnancy, so many of my contemporaries were having babies. And it became something that I was determined to do. And I think that there were so many years within that period of time where I didn't question whether I was. wanted it, how much I wanted it, because as anyone who has been through fertility treatment will know, the question itself is unhelpful because it's so difficult to go through. You have to be so committed to it. And the reason I kept going was because I fully believed that it was

in my future to have a child and that I had to get through these processes in order to achieve that inevitable and much yearned for outcome. And so as long as I was having medical professionals telling me, you just need to go one more time. You just need to try one more time. I would listen to them. And also, you're stuck in this hormonal health scape where for me, it's like it felt like I lost touch with who I was, let alone my own desires. And so a lot of the time I was doing it because other people said I should. And I include in that a lot of my friends who was so supportive and so wonderful.

And when I latched the strength, they held the hope for me and I'm forever grateful for that. And I did really, really, really want it. And I should say it wasn't just 12 years of constant trying. So within that time, I got divorced. I had my first miscarriage within that marriage, which was a kind of catalyst for the end of that marriage. Then I was single for a bit. Then I froze my eggs.

Then I met Justin. And I thought at that stage, okay, I can try and be at peace with a future without children. But then we got pregnant naturally. And then it just showed us both how much we wanted it. And then we started jointly doing fertility treatment together. And to cut a long story short, the pandemic happened. And again, fertility treatment went on hold. I had another miscarriage during lockdown, which was horrendous.

And then when lockdown restrictions lifted, we were like, okay, let's try egg donation. Because at that stage, I was 42. And so getting on a bit. And we tried egg donation and everything seemed to be aligned and got the most amazing donor, amazing embryo. And then that didn't work. And that was so crushing and so devastating because I felt as though I had done everything, quote, unquote, right this time.

Yeah. I was like, I've come to. terms of the fact it's not going to be my own egg, all of this sort of stuff, and then that didn't work. And that moment really made me pause. And I thought, instead of focusing on what I don't have, how about I'm grateful and focus on what I do have, which is an amazing, loving relationship that I'm so grateful for, and I'm lucky that I'm in a good marriage. And I also have a really creatively fulfilling career. So I have my podcast. I also write my books and that in an of itself is a way of creating. And I experimented with what it would be like just to tell myself I wasn't

going to do any more fertility treatment. And it actually felt amazing and I felt relieved and at peace. And I had to come to terms of the fact that sometimes quitting is not failure, sometimes quitting instead of persisting is one of the most powerful things you can do. And so that's the stage that I'm at now. That's really inspiring. It must have been quite liberating as well in a way to go just draw a line under it rather and sort of flogging yourself about it each day. It really was and it's why I'm passionate about talking on this topic

because I think as a society we have so many people who go through fertility issues and thank goodness people are talking about it more. but generally speaking, their story ends with the conventional happy ending of having a baby in their arms. And I wanted to speak for those people who have tried so, so hard and they've done everything that they can. And they have failed at this thing that they thought they wanted because I want to tell that person, if they're going through it right now, there is so much peace and hope on the other side, whatever the other side contains. And it might be that you end up with your baby, but it might be that you have. my experience, which is that you can parent in so many different ways in this world, and you can also show up for yourself. And there are amazing things about not being a parent. And I'm very

grateful for all of that. Your latest novel was written just after you kind of made this decision and you kind of threw yourself into, like you say, you've got a creatively fulfilling career that you can kind of create something and, like, that was something that you used to deal with this transition? Definitely. So I started writing this new novel, I would say, in about March, 2023. It's called One of Us. It's called One of Us. Thank you. Look at you, you pro. There you go. Putting that title in. Yes. It's called One of us. And it's available in all good bookshops. 25th of September, actually. Yes. It's out. Thank you. Thank you. and I started writing it the month after I had decided to let go of any future fertility treatment

and actually as you both identified I felt really liberated and I felt really free and I felt like I could be myself and maybe that would be enough and alongside that of course there was sadness and grief and there always will be but I had this like surge of creative energy. And I wrote this book without feeling I had to prove something about myself. It was so interesting. So that idea of having to prove that I would be a good mother, that I deserve to be a parent, having let go of that almost unlocked this other side, which is like, I don't have to prove myself to be a certain kind of author either. I'm just going to write the book that I want to write. It kind of poured out of me. And yeah, one of us, it's a

multi-voice narrative. It's the most fun I've ever had writing a book. I hope it's funny as well and it picks up where a previous book of mine, the party left off. He don't need to have read it beforehand though. And it tells the story of a character called Martin Gilmore who struggles to belong and all he wants, it's a bit like Josh, all he wants is to love and to be loved in return. He just wants to belong. And very often that love isn't reciprocated. And he's become slightly fixated on his best friend from a posh boarding school. And he's invited back into that kind of family fold that he wants to be part of.

But I use that as a device to look at where we are as a country as well. Because I find that so often we fall in love with the people who damage us and we elect them to. And very often the people that we elect don't care about us in the way that we want them to or the way that we imagine that they will. So there's a whole political narrative to it as well. And did you write it and feel like, you know, they often say like when you write a book, you find out what it's about by writing it, right?

And did you find that you were, although it's not directly about what you'd been through and the stage you're at, did any of it reflect back this kind of the state of where you were? That was such a great question. Thank you. You're right. She likes me.

Good. Yeah, I do. I really like you. I like you both. And Josh, you're very good friends with Susie Ruffle, who I adore. I am. Yes, she's great. Oh, that's a good sign. So you're in. You're in. You've got godchildren 14 and 15 coming your way at the end of this court. Thank you, because I always feel 30s are slightly unlucky numbers. That's perfect. Your gift from Wicked Uncle is on its way. So that's a great question. And I am one of those writers who only finds out what she's writing about. when, and preferably after I've written it and someone else has told me what I've written about, I find it quite hard when someone asks me what the themes are

because my novels are very character-driven. But I think you've hit on something there, which is I didn't explicitly write a character who was going through fertility treatment and experiencing recurrent miscarriage. I have written that character before, actually, in my previous novel, Magpie. But I did write a mother.

there's one character called Serena who is my age and she's the mother of four children and I really enjoyed writing her for multiple reasons one of which is that she is perimenopausal and so was I when I was writing it and I wanted to write an accurate representation of that in fiction but also because she's a mother

who she comes from a certain social demographic she's part of the kind of aristocratic elites and so she has been conditioned to kind of of be close to her children but not too close and to send them all off to boarding school. And she's come to this point in her life where she's losing that previous identity and she's realizing that she wants more love in her life and she actually wants to be closer to her children. And so writing that journey was healing for me because I realized that I had the capacity to write as a mother and to hopefully understand what it was to want to be a present

mother. And in a way, that's one way of experiencing parenting. So yes, it was definitely in it in that respect. And there's also a character who I write from the perspective of being her daughter. So there's a character called Cosimer. She's 17. She's going through a lot of sort of adolescent stuff. And that was really healing as well to be able to understand the pressures of adolescence. And again, I get this privileged window into that through not only my stepchildren, but my godchildren and my nieces. And so that was really fun to put on the page as well. Did you find there was a freedom writing this book then?

Because when you sort of made the decision not to carry on with a fertility treatment and stuff like that, like really your life's been sort of success and like doing the right thing at the right time a society would see, you know, you went to Cambridge and got first and then became a journalist and then you got book deals and you wrote these amazing novels, started a podcast that went great, got married, all the little sort of things you hit. And like you say, then your friends started having children and then you didn't. did you have a sort of almost like a belligerent know I'm going to do it because that's whatever else is doing and I have to do it? Was that quite a draining sort of approach to it?

Definitely. And I think a lot of women listening to this and possibly men will relate to that, that kind of good girl notion of I want to do everything that's expected of me and I want to do it really, really well because Josh, you'll relate to this. It will make me fundamentally lovable. You know, I will be accepted. If I do everything, quote, unquote, right at the right time, then there'll be no reason for anyone to leave me. There'll be no reason for me to lose a job. I'll keep myself safe.

And of course, it doesn't work out like that. Because in trying to keep yourself safe, you're essentially outsourcing your life to other people's opinions or what you perceive their opinions might be of you. And you never find out who you are unless, as was my experience, you're confronted with something that doesn't go according to plan. and you're confronted with the truth of yourself in that moment. And for me, it actually started with fertility and divorce. And that all happened in my early 30s and then throughout that decade.

And it was a hugely transitional decade for me. So that little pot of biography, you were kind enough to give me just then. I hit certain milestones. But what a professional CV will never show you is the underbelly, which is all the stuff that was going wrong. and the failure that I felt not being able to do something that I thought I would be able to do. And beyond that, feeling like my body was letting me down, because it's a sort of, in my head, it was a biological failure. So it wasn't even something that I could work harder at and get a better exam result for.

I just was at the mercy of my body. And so there was also a period of sort of reconnecting with my physical self. And that's been my experience of my 40s. It's like, I feel so powerful now in my 40s having come face to face with a lot of this stuff. And to go back to your original point, yes, I feel so liberated by it as well. Because if I'm not going to be a mother in the conventional sense, then I want my life to have meaning. And I want to make that meaning, whether it is writing a book, doing a podcast, or whether it's just going. on a great holiday with friends

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Well, that's what you say, it worked out. But one of the things with it was, in that period just after it, the bitterness I felt towards, I remember close friends of ours becoming pregnant and I fucking hated them. Do you know what I mean? Because you're like, that's your gut reaction, right? And also, people's reactions to you obviously are, oh, God, are you okay? All these kind of things.

Did it affect your friendships with you? other people who were kind of, you know, not just in that you felt bitter towards them, but they felt awkward around you about whether they could tell you they were pregnant, all these kind of things. Did that happen? Yes. It definitely affected all of my relationships, I would say, and friendships too. And I wrote a book about friendship called Friendaholic and I devoted an entire chapter to how it feels when all of your friends are having babies and you can't. It was incredibly difficult. And, And talking about the span of my fertility experience, so my first miscarriage was in 2014.

And it's hard to remember now, but back then, and it's not even that long ago, but there was still such a stigma of silence around it. And actually, people didn't know what to say when I told them, which was partly why I became passionate subsequently about talking and writing about it, because I wanted people to know that I'm sorry as a complete sentence. And that was difficult trying to navigate that silence because it made me feel as though my miscarriage didn't count. I mean, I actually had a loved one say to me, can't you treat it as a heavy period. And this was a miscarriage I had at three months.

Like I was in hospital over the weekend. It was so traumatic in so many respects. And I'm glad now that we are having these conversations and props to you, Josh, were talking about it from a male perspective as well. And society has become much more open. Now, there were certain friendships that fell by the wayside during this time because they couldn't understand what it was to be me. I don't mind that, but what I do mind is the lack of compassionate curiosity to find out and the lack of the question. And even if you feel awkward asking the question, there was sort of lack of compassion around it.

And there were some people who just assumed that I was very career focused and that this couldn't possibly interest me. And there were others who said, oh, why don't you come around and babysit for us? Because, you know, it would be good practice for you. And actually, like, that's the last thing you want to do when you've gone through a miscarriage, spoiler alert. It's like, one of the last things you want to do. Having said that, the friends who were there for me and who are, my dearest friends still, were unbelievable. And I don't know what I would have done without their love. And it's actually a really interesting thing to go through in terms of showing you what you value about friendship.

But like you, Josh, yeah, I definitely have my periods of kind of bitterness and anger and hurt and upset. Because that's what it is. It's like sometimes your sadness is so heavy and uncomfortable for you to carry that it comes out masked as anger and bitterness and stuff that you can kind of make fun of in yourself. Do you know what I mean? And I have to say, it's not that I no longer have that. It's that I'm much more at peace with it, and I understand that when I have that feeling, it will pass, and it's transient, and it's part of my process.

But at the moment, I feel like fucking every single celebrity is pregnant. Like everyone. Everyone is having a baby, and that can be quite difficult. And another bloody male online, like someone revealing their scan or whatever. And actually, that's why I'm very grateful for the community that has been. Do you know the trick there is to not go on mail online? online. I don't think anyone's left the mail online happier than when they went on it. I think if that's true. Because sometimes, there are just such bat-shit stories that really do

tickle me. We were talking about Melinda Messer seeing a UFO earlier. Have you seen this? No. It wasn't a baby scan, was it? All confused. You know, guys, as someone, you know, very fortunate not to have gone through miscarriage with me and Lou, it's like, you know, you said your friend, some friends didn't handle it well, some did. What is a good way to handle it? Because obviously, you know, if your friends are going through something like that, you never really know what to say. You don't want to say too much or nothing.

What helps and what doesn't? Or is it very individual, do you find out? You obviously can't speak for everyone. That's such a beautiful question. And I think saying I'm so sorry is enough. Genuinely, that single sentence acknowledges that there is something worth grieving. Because when you miscarry, it's a strange kind of grief in that you are grieving both a presence and an absence. You were pregnant, but you never had the child.

But the moment you know you're pregnant, you start imagining the baby that you will have. You start thinking about names. You start thinking about which playgrounds you're going to go to. And so you're also mourning the end of that dream. And I think someone acknowledging that with that single sentence is so incredibly healing. And something that my best friend Emma said to me was, even if you have never experienced exactly the same thing as your loved one is going through, you can say to them, I can't hope to understand, but what I do understand is that you need me

and need me to be here in whatever capacity. And she gave this example, one of the most loving things that a friend did for me when I had a miscarriage during lockdown was without even asking, turned up at my doorstep and left a bag of shopping on the doorstep of all of my favourite things. And doing something that practical and thoughtful is so unbelievably loving and was so moving. I'm getting choked up just now thinking about it. Talk me through the favourite things, Elizabeth. Oh, good. Now, finally, we're getting to the deep question. You've really got a crime.

We could have clickbaited that. Sorry, sorry, that's what Bartlett would sit in the silence. Josh would be terrible, do Luthero or Bartlett. You can't go to the silence. Talk to me about the younger. Was they? Sorry. You don't talk to me about the bag.

What was in that bag? Okay. Obesines. Sorry, I know that. We're fucking hell. Let's go back to crying. I'm close to tears with that first item. There was Obergines.

Marmite. Crumpits. Yeah. I really am the most middle class person you might ever have had on this podcast. I think there were chocolate digestives, my favourite biscuit. It's a good line-up apart from the aubergine. It's just someone's thinking about you, isn't it? Exactly.

And you're trying to give you an answer or a solution. Because that's what you get. The problem with children and having children or trying to have children or not having children is it's a multi-generational conversation that dominates everyone's life. So just a random auntie will go, when are you having kids then? You'll never say to anyone, when you go to Mexico on holiday?

Yeah. But having kids is something that you are asked about all the time. then whatever you say, there's further questions, and especially with, like, miscarriages and stuff like that, you know, like, I've heard older, like, family members go, have you tried chilling out a bit? Oh, my God. That's good, isn't it? And you're like, shut up.

They don't need ideas. I can tell you the worst things you can say. Go on. Like, have you considered adoption? Okay. Adoption's an amazing thing to consider, but I can guarantee you anyone who has gone through a current miscarriage and years of fertility treatment unsuccessfully will have not only considered adoption. they will have done shitloads towards researching every single element of it.

And it's very often something that someone says when they are a parent and they have had no issues parenting whatsoever. And actually the adoption process is not something that you can enter into in a sort of lighthearted, breezy way. There's so much work and consideration that goes into it. And that in and of itself can take years and should do because it's such an important, crucial thing. So things like that are just sort of assuming that you haven't sort of

consider like, yeah, have you tried just going on holiday with your partner, just relaxing of it? I've heard that stress. All of that is so annoying. Having said that, this is a very personal thing to me. And so I'm not sure it definitely wouldn't work for everyone. But when I made the decision to stop fertility treatments and to stop trying, I had a couple of very, very close friends of mine, tell me the truth about parenting, saying really truthfully,

you know, I love my children, but it can be an absolute nightmare. and this is why, and this is how I feel. And I was really grateful to them for telling me that. It wasn't something that I could have heard when I was going through all of the fertility treatment and I just had to keep my spirits alive. But actually, it made me realize that we can fall into this trap

of telling ourselves one single story about something that we really, really want, that we are going to have a baby and it's going to be amazing. It's going to be like a field of lavender and we're going to gamble off into the sunshine and your child is going to love you so much and it's all going to be wonderful

and you will feel understood for the first time and actually, as you will both know far better than I do, that's not the whole story. We built a career on it, Elizabeth. We built a career on it. Yeah, there we go. But it's true that we and Lou often say this, you know, like Lou's had to take a career break

and her sort of career suffered because we prioritised my career for boring financial reasons and stuff like that. So she had to take a career break and massively took an impact on that and her career. We love the kids to pieces and we never change anything. But we both wanted to live abroad and work abroad at some point for like a long time, but we've not been able to do that because we've had kids and all these things,

which is fine. It's not me complaining. But there are so many other opportunities and ways to have an amazing fulfilling life that could go one way that we can't have because we've gone down the room of having children and stuff like that. So it's not just a sharp shop of this is the best way and that isn't. There's so many opportunities out there. But if you're dwelling on one, then you will make it something that hangs over your own head

in a way I think. Exactly. And actually I've just thought of another thing that you shouldn't say to people who might be gay through fertility treatment, which is you'll understand when you finally have your baby, you will never have felt love like it. You will totally understand what love is. And that might be true, but it's such an upsetting thing to hear. It's not ideal. I can see from the outside why that was not ideal. No. And my response to that after a while, internal, because I would never say it because hashtag people pleaser was, well, by the same token, you will never know what my experience has been and the love that I have felt for the children of mine who haven't been born. You will never understand that. You'll never understand the love that I've

experienced from my friends and family when I'm going through it. So you will, by the same token, never understand what it is not to have a child and to go through years of wanting one. Elizabeth, have you ever told anyone to fuck off? In my own head, I have. Just let one out. not in an aggressive way. When they go, have you ever did it? Just got, you mom fucking off. You've inspired me. You've inspired me to do that.

But actually, when I wrote that chapter in the book about friendship, it was so interesting because when it came, it was a non-fiction book, and when it came to doing the audio narration, I realized how angry I was when I was writing that chapter. And it kind of all came out in that way. But no, I've never said, fuck off directly to come on space.

But what's face? That's like one's face. Back of the red under your breath. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this because obviously, you know, it's such a difficult thing to talk about, but it's so, so worthwhile. And also, great to get those items in the bag, confirmed.

The Obijian and the Marmire. It's really good to get into the nitty-gritty there, Josh. There is a couple of other things we'd like to do at the end, Elizabeth, before obviously we'll re-mentioned all those books is, do you believe in aliens? I do believe in aliens, but not in the Hollywood sense. I believe that there is an alternate life space that humans can't hope to understand. So whether it's collective consciousness or whether it's sort of alien life forms, yes, I totally believe in all of that.

Yeah. That was a new question. We got into whether Barry Hearn believed in aliens before we were recorded with Barry Hearn. And I thought, do you know what? It got a good answer then. I'm going to see what the alternate is. I think we're going to find out over the next few months that every single person we interview believes in aliens in some sort.

Yeah, I don't think it's going to be a regular feature. Well, we'll see. It could be a spin-off podcast, though. Josh on his own with six listeners. That's right when it comes, do you believe in aliens? You pop on for 10 seconds. Do you believe in aliens? And when's the film out?

Brilliant. We'll see. Thank you for the promo. Are you on tour? Okay, cool. honestly though it's so important to talk about that stuff we've had loads of people in the past asking for people to come on to talk about fertility journeys and stuff like that when they've been successful or unsuccessful so thank you so much for sharing because it's really important

and there'll be so many people that feel seen and appreciate that so thank you thank you both so much for giving me this platform I really can't tell you how much I appreciate it and thank you beyond that for being two really good people who are also really funny And it's just a joy to share this Bermoth podcasting space with the old mammoth crew. Look at us. What a loving. The Bayamoff Boys and Girls. We will call it the mammoth podcast this one.

Do you want to do the final question, Rob, seeing as I stole the alien one? Of course, final question, we ask everything. What does your partner do as a parent that sort of really inspires you and thinks, God, he's amazing to being a parent. That's unbelievable. And I know you're not a sort of stepmother in a traditional sense, but is there something he does as well that frustrates you, that annoys you a little bit about being a parent. But you can feel free to answer both or none at all.

Okay, I'll do the negative one first. It doesn't annoy. I think it's going to swear that. Fair enough, straight. No, you're fine. It doesn't annoy me, but I think it's weird. I know it's not weird. And the reason I think it's weird is probably to do with my age, because I was born in

1978. I'm too old to know whether that makes me a geriatric millennial or a Gen X, but I think it's a Gen X. So I grew up without technology. Now, my husband tracks all of his children, which, which I think probably all parents do, but I still find it a bit odd. From that iPhone?

How often is he looking at it? Pretty often, especially because, especially because, like, his middle one just went backpacking in Thailand. So he could be like, oh, he's at the youth hostel in Pouquet. Oh, God, that's terrifying, no, isn't it? Yes, I would find it really stressful. He's at the mushroom milkshake cafe.

Yeah, exactly. He's at the CBD outlet in Kosamui. Anyway, so. So that's that one. And then the thing that inspires me, he is just an integrity-filled parent, by which I mean that he brings his whole self to the task. So he is incredibly trustworthy. His children know that he will always show up for them, sometimes uninvited because he's been tracking them, so he'll show up at the bus stop at 3am. But he will show up for them when they most need him. and he will show up as a fully sort of trustworthy, authentic individual.

It's a bit boring, isn't it? He's also an amazing cook. No, that's not what the best parent in is boring. You need to be there to show up and that they're bored of seeing you. That's the best thing I think you can be as a parent is there for them when they need it. Yeah. Sometimes when they haven't asked for it. Sorry, sorry, I interrupted the promo.

Go ahead, Josh. He's got a great intro. He's going to do a great outro now. This book, I think, is a mammoth chance of it hitting the Times top 10. one of us, September the 25th, are you doing any beat? Do you do like book tours and book, you know, readings and stuff, do you? I do. Do you enjoy that or do you find it stressful?

I love it. Michael has told me you've got a hard out and to finish the interview, so I shouldn't have asked that. Sorry, Elizabeth. But actually, you're so, this is so impressive because I've still got two minutes to my next meeting and you've really, like, ended bang on time. He needs time for you to upload the files, Elizabeth, so. I'm sorry, you need to go, yes, I go on the tour.

I love it. I didn't think we could end it worse than we said. It's amazing. You basically asked someone a question and told him not to answer it. I'm sorry, I panicked. I don't know what to do now. I don't know what to make you like me, Josh, but to ensure that I'm punctual for the next people.

No, I've got it. Elizabeth, just tell him to fuck off and we'll end it. Oh yeah, brilliant. Both of you just fuck off. Perfect. Thank you, Elizabeth.