Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S9 EP42: Dr. Rangan Chatterjee

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Joining us this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) is the brilliant physician, author and podcaster - Dr. Rangan Chatterjee His brilliant new book 'MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS: 9 Simple Ways to Break Free from the Habits that Hold You Back' is available to buy now. Parenting Hell is a Spotify Podcast, available everywhere every Tuesday and Friday. Please subscribe and leave a rating and review you filthy street dogs... xx If you want to get in touch with the show with any correspondence, kids intro audio clips, small business shout outs, and more.... here's how: EMAIL: [e-mail] Follow us on instagram: @parentinghell  Join the mailing list to be first to hear about live show dates and tickets, Parenting Hell merch and any other exciting news... MAILING LIST: parentinghellpodcast.mailchimpsites.com A 'Keep It Light Media' Production  Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Rob Beckett. And I'm Josh Willicombe. Welcome to Parenting Hell, the show in which Josh and I discuss what it's really like to be a parent, which I would say can be a little tricky. So to make ourselves and hopefully you feel better about the trials and tribulations of modern day parenting, each week we'll be chatting to a famous parent about how they're coping. Or hopefully how they're not coping. And we'll also be hearing from you, the listener,

with your tips, advice, and of course, tales of parenting woe. Because let's be honest, there are plenty of times where none of us know what we're doing. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of junior chicken, McDouble, or Chicken Snack Wrap,

plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. In a darkly comedic look at motherhood and society's expectations, Academy Award-nominated Amy Adams stars as a passionate artist who puts her career on hold to stay home with her young son. But her maternal instincts take a wild and surreal turn as she discovers the best, yet fiercest, part of herself. Based on the acclaimed novel, Nightbitch is a thought-provoking and wickedly humorous film from Searchlight Pictures.

Nightbitch is now streaming only on Disney+. Clear your schedule for U-Time with a handcrafted espresso beverage from Starbucks. Disney Plus. Your espresso will be handcrafted with care at Starbucks. Rongan Chatterjee, hello. Doctor. Hey guys. What should I say? Doctor. Doctor, that's disrespectful. You worked hard for that. Don't drop the doctor. Hey Rongan's fine honestly. I don't mind at all. Okay, we'll go for Rongan but we need everyone to know that you're a doctor as well.

Yeah. That doesn't know. I mean I think if you've worked hard for it. Yeah, yeah. My first question, which we discussed discussed before is is unrelated but I'm not very well and my skin hurts is that a normal thing? You think you've got a cold? Yeah my skin hurts and Rob doesn't believe me. When you get a cold? Yeah or a bit fluy you know and it's like you've got a bit of a temperature. It's not a bit flu-y, you ever got flu or not? Yeah, right, right, yeah. So, I mean, just so I'm being ethical in my answer,

obviously we're recording this and it's in public, so other people are gonna listen to this and presumably you're happy with that. Yes, yes. Because normally we don't do one-on-one consultations with tens of thousands of, hundreds of thousands of people listening, so it's kind of fine for me as long as it's okay with you. one-on-one consultations with tens of thousands of people. So it's kind of fine for me as long as it's okay with you.

Ooh. Are you suggesting it's got something to do with his tiny dick? I was not suggesting that at all. I was simply trying to be ethical at the start of a conversation that I believe could go into all kinds of crazy areas. Quick answer to your question is, yeah, loads of people get pain of some degree, whether it's their skin or other parts of their body, when they get ill. And there's many

reasons for that. Your immune system is a little bit fired up because it's trying to maybe protect you and fight off a bug. And we know that the kind of pain pathway in your brain, the area that looks after pain can be stimulated by physical stuff but also emotional stuff, right? So it isn't, so pain can come up for a whole variety of different reasons basically. So quick answer is yes, it absolutely can happen and it's very, very common and it's nothing to worry about. Yeah.

Well, he will worry about it anyway. Can I ask that quickly and then we'll get onto you. I apologize to him immediately asking for a diagnosis when we've spoken to a doctor for two minutes. Yeah. But is it part that like... I bet you are, sorry. Obviously people get cold and stuff, but are some patients just pussies? And they look

for a bit more of this and you as a doctor have to treat every patient with respect, but sometimes they could leave the consultation you think they're just slightly pathetic. Okay, I've got to be careful how I answer this. It's a great question. Not implying Josh, because Josh is under the weather, but some people are better at being ill than others, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I think we've all got a different tolerance to discomfort, don't we? And if I'm being completely honest, I've never thought of it like that, right? So I know many people do think of it like that. Like, why is this person come in today? You know, why did they, why did they decide to come in today?

They could have just waited a few more days. Genuinely, hand on heart, I've never felt that. I've always been like, I'm honestly so interested in people. So I always used to think in my early days as a GP, if someone did come in with something that I might have considered relatively trivial, I would always ask myself, I wonder why that person's come in today? Why have they decided to, because it's not easy to get an appointment, number one, right? It's getting harder and harder, but in many practices, it's really hard to get an appointment. You often have to take half a day off work, if not more. You've got to come and wait in a waiting

room. It's not a laugh, is it? Yeah, it's not a laugh, right? So I've always wondered why is it? And so I never, I'm honestly, I'm not, I'm actually not that judgmental anymore, right? I'm, I'm kind of very much, I don't, I want to understand and actually trying to understand why that person has decided to come in, actually tells you a lot about their life and how they view their health. So, yes, people have a different tolerance to discomfort and pain,

and some people will literally sit at home for two months with something that you wish they'd come in. Yeah, which is even worse in a way, if they're too hot. Yeah, but then there's also the flip side, but for me it's always about why has they'd come in. Yeah, which is even worse in a way if they're too, too hard. Then there's also the flip side. But for me, it's always about why has that person come in? What is their belief about these symptoms that they have? Because here's the other thing I've learned, right? In, you know, over two decades now of being a doctor,

is that people went often. They don't always tell you what they're worried about in the consultation, right? So they might come in and tell you they've got a headache. Yeah, and It's really bothering them. It's been going on for a little while whatever, you know, and you do the consultation I then as they're walking out the door, you know, they're literally the hand is on the door and they're like, oh doc You know Also, it's kind of like, you know, my dad died of cancer or had a brain tumor or my best mate had a brain tumor. And so actually there's always a reason

why that person's come in. It may seem trivial, but often they have an association in their heads. And so this is what the more patients you see, the more you just learn to be really open-minded. Okay. You just have no idea What's going on as someone else's life? Come on I ask one last doctor question isn't about me, but this is a parenting related one with cow pole So yeah colored and then we'll get on to your children and various children but I've always wondered you know when you get your cow

pole and it says 2.5 millilitres what's like I've always had long debates with my wife she'll be like oh my god we've given them three millilitres when it should be 2.5 presumably there's a big kind of... It's not like if you go just over 2.5, it's dangerous, is it? Okay, so... You're trying to get a doctor to suggest that you should go over prescribed amounts. No, no, I'm not. I'm interested. Okay, so let me try and give you the reality from a medical perspective, okay? I'm enjoying the questions. I think Lisa, you know, if you're thinking them,

it means there's a lot of people thinking as well. Right. So that's really interesting to me. So look, Calpol, you know, the main at some ingredient we're thinking about is paracetamol. Right. So we give that for a variety of different reasons, pain, temperature management, all kinds of things. Yeah. That old sore skin. But paracetamol is not like without its potential risks. That's, that is the truth. Right. You know, right? Parasites should not be taken in excess. And even in the adult dosage, so that's how much you're meant to take as an adult, some people actually don't even do well

at the maximum of that because we all deal with it genetically differently. Yeah, so it's not this, because we get it over the counter, I think we sort of think, oh, it's nothing. Like it's just a bit of paracetamol. But actually it's pretty powerful what it does. So I don't think there's anything to worry about if you go a little bit over, right? But I wouldn't recommend you do that regularly. I wouldn't recommend you try and stick to the recommended

dose. And it is there for a reason. It's not there to be difficult. It's actually there because too much paracetamol on a kind of, even with an adult, but for a child with a forming liver, which has to actually process that paracetamol, you kind of don't really want to go beyond the prescribed dose if you can help it. But if you do on the odd occasion, don't stress out about it, is what I would say.

Okay. Is that helpful? Yes, very helpful. I should say as well, we have had doctors on in the past. It feels like it's the first doctor we've had on and Josh has just unleashed on you, but those doctors were Harry Hill and Mike Wozniak. Yes, they've gone into comedy. You're our first, I'd say, are you still practicing doctor?

Because you write your books, you do your podcasts, you're still in the surgery. I stopped three months ago. Did you? Three months ago, yeah, yeah after 23 years oh wow I say stop temporarily at least because I've realized that I just had too much going on yeah I saw skin losers walking in as well last thing you need is it when you got a bug deadline no I've got what happened I'll be thinking about this for a little while actually because I think a lot of the things that I write about and talk about deadline. No, I've got. What happened? I've been thinking about this for a little while, actually,

because I think a lot of the things that I write about and talk about each week on my podcast, people find really, really helpful and actually helps them manage their health. And I was asked to be a professor at Chester Medical School about a year ago to help with health education, communication. And so I'm involved with them with teaching medical students. And I thought, you just can't do everything. And, you know, this is a parenting podcast. I kind of really want to spend quality time with my children and my wife, but I realized good save, good save, huge save. Whoever's editing this, don't edit that last thing.

That last one out. Do you know what? The timing wasn't, it was the way you said it was the problem. It wasn't that you said it too late. And wife! And wife, yeah, just slip that in there. But in essence, I've realized that I actually do want to be living the life that I try and talk about each week of my show or in my books.

And actually, so many of us these days are chronically stressed because we're overly busy, we've got too much going on. And I think the truth is some of that decision came from, you know what, what will people think? Will they think I'm a real doctor if I stop practicing? And then I thought, this is ridiculous. Like mums all the time take maybe two, three years off from practicing medicine when they have children,

when they're looking after the baby, let's say, there are mechanisms in place for people to temporarily stop practicing and then go back. And I decided for me at this point in my life, I still feel I'm very much being a doctor in all the things that I do on my podcast and my books and teaching medical students. So it feels, it was a bit weird at first, you know, the first day. Yeah, but when you get up on a Monday and you're like, oh, I don't have to see any, I can just be on my own all day. Or is that just me thinking? You know what, I think it was more about this,

I think it was more about identity guys, if I'm honest. Like, I kind of, you know, from, you know, I got, I went to medical school when I was 18 and then it was all about qualifying and then you... Your dad was a doctor as well, so was it sort of like expected of you from the family as well slightly? Yeah, I think I feel more comfortable talking about this sort of stuff these days than maybe 20 years ago, right? It's probably a bit of a cliché, but a lot of children of Indian immigrants, like my parents were Indian immigrants to the UK in the 1960s and the 1970s, a lot of their children end up being doctors.

I'm sure you've noticed that, right? And there's a reason for that. It's a cliche joke, isn't it? It's sort of like on the circuit in any Asian comic. It's one of their opening lines really, where like what the mum and dad think of them. Yeah, the opening line is, you know, I'm a failure because I wasn't a doctor, an engineer or a lawyer.

I've ended up being a comedian, right? So that's the opening line. But it is kind of true. Sometimes it's not even actively spoken about. It's just kind of, it's there in the, you know, what do they say, you know, a fish doesn't know that it's in water, right? Because it's sort of swimming in water the whole time.

That there's a better quote than that. I've messed up the quote, but you know, you know what I'm talking about? A fish does actually know what it is because it's surrounded by it. And I kind of feel it's the same in many immigrant families. We're just surrounded by this idea that actually you're going to be a doctor, an engineer or a lawyer.

Now it is changing, although not completely. And, you know, so I did. And it's not that I don't care about people. It's not that I'm not proud to be a doctor. I don't think it's the right career for me. I think it is. But actually, I'm not sure I can honestly say that I had free choice in terms of what I ended up doing.

I'm not saying my parents said I have to do it, but it was just there around me. And I think my experience of that has actually quite significantly influenced how I parent my children, which is actually quite different. Yeah, that's quite interesting. Are they showing an interest? How old are they? So my son is 14 and my daughter was 12 last weekend. Right, yeah, so that's quite an important stage of their life with decisions on where they're going to have to start picking subjects a little bit more, don't they, for GCSEs?

Yeah, my son last year had to pick his now. He's in his first GCSE year and he had to pick those subjects and so, you know, funnily enough, medicine hasn't come up. Like one of the things I feel I've struggled with a lot over my life, which I was pretty open about in my last book and this current book, and again, it's a bit of a cliche, we're hearing this a lot these days, but for all my so-called success over the past few years, you know, I've certainly ticked a lot

of the societal boxes of success. I don't think I was truly happy and contented until a few years ago, maybe four or five years ago. And I feel in many ways I had to get that success to teach me that that success doesn't make you happy. Yeah, I think that's a real, it's a kind of weird thing where you get this definitely with comedians who you think success is going to bring you happiness, but almost you do need it proven to yourself that it's not the key. Well yeah, 100% I think society puts things in place because of an identity you've chosen. So if you become a, you know, I'm studying medicine, you need to become the doctor and then the type of doctor. If you're a comedian it it's like, you've gotta hit these levels of things

to prove that you're a successful one. And I think, actually, when you do hit those things, you realize, oh, that hasn't brought me happiness, and everyone has their own internal, what actually is success to you individually, and it doesn't normally match up with societal sort of benchmarks. I think it very rarely does, it really doesn't.

And so for me, I've been very open about this over the last couple of years. And it relates to what we just said about my parents, right? So I remember, guys, as a child, maybe six or seven, I'd come back from primary school, dead excited to tell mom and dad about my grades and like, oh, you know, I got 19 out of 20 in this test. And I can still remember my mom and dad not saying well done. What they would say is, what did you get wrong? So I'd explain, you know, what I got wrong

and said, well, did you come top? I'm like, no, I was second or I came third. And so who came top? What mark did they get? And so, no, no, but here's the thing, right? I'm not blaming my parents, just to be really clear. What I've learned as I've become older and through this journey of parenting, I've learned that actually every single situation in life has multiple perspectives, right?

So from mom and dad's perspective, they're immigrants to the UK. They faced quite a bit of discrimination back then in a variety of different ways. And so the immigrant mentality is, if my child can get straight A grades and become a doctor, they're not going to have any of the problems that we have. That kind of makes sense if you look at it through their lens, right? But what happened with me is a little wrong and takes on the belief at a young age that I'm only worthy of love when I'm top dog, when I get four marks. So what I've also learned is that I've developed, for most of my life, my best mates would say,

we don't know anyone more competitive than Rangan. He is fiercely competitive. But I'm not anymore, guys. I'm not anymore because being competitive wasn't who I was, it was who I became. So if you think about it, if you think that you're only going to get love when you're top dog and you're doing really well, it's going to drive you to be really, really competitive. And yes, I was successful. I was a straight A student, but it didn't equate to contentedness. Whereas, honestly, hand on heart, I'm 47 years old now, I've never felt this

good. Like I feel really, really calm. Do you know what, you look fucking great as well. Mate, I appreciate that. Don't judge a book by its cover. The thing is though, because obviously you went down the medicine route and that was maybe your parents influence, but you're obviously an absolute natural when it comes to like you know podcasting writing your books and broadcasting and really the way you do it you can be talking about anything whether it be medicine or sport or the news or whatever you can take something like make it in a way that's interesting you're engaging yeah and engaging and

to take in for as an audience an audience, you can see that. So if you didn't have that influence, do you think there might have been something that you might have been swayed towards growing up or because it's so medicine focused that you didn't have that? I'll tell you what I do remember. So I've always been a musician my whole life. I've always played instruments and when I was a teenager, I would be, you know, I was obsessed with, you know, rock music and writing songs.

And I remember when I was 21, so I was at Edinburgh Medical School, and then in a medical degree, you can take a year out, like after your second year to do what's called an intercalated degree. So I did a degree in immunology, basically, an honest degree in immunology when I was 21. And I remember coming home for Christmas that December and I had really long hair, sort of middle of my back. I was playing with my bands and I said to mom and dad, I think guys, I'm going to finish

this year, get my immunology degree. And then I think I'm going to quit medical school to go on the road with my bands. And oh my God, that was a punchy Christmas Mom was amazing. I was trying to keep the peace. I don't think my dad Spoke to me for a few days like he wasn't like he was just trying to avoid me He couldn't quite understand what happened to his son. Yeah, the straight Hair and you've dropped out of it trying to deal with the hair. And you've dropped that on him. He's trying to deal with the hair, exactly. The long hair.

And now I'm thinking about quitting medical school. And my mum said, hey, listen, listen, I know you love your music, but why don't you just finish your medical degree, right? At least finish it first. And then you've got options. The truth is, I don't know if I even meant it. I think I was just...

Was your balance good? Uh, I think we were pretty good. You know, we've done stuff. You know, I've sort of, I don't know how much to say, I don't know how much is still available online. But we took it. Let's get into this. What was the band called?

Well, well, we had multiple names. Our first band at uni was called Smoke Screen, which I thought was really cool at the time. But now, I don't know, looking back back maybe maybe not the coolest thing but I think it's decent. I recorded I did record a solo EP back in 2004 which made X of M single of the year single of the week so I could play but the kind of point is is I don't think I actually meant it I think I was just kicking out pushing back against my parents to see what would happen but the point I wanted to make and you know, maybe it was interesting for your audience about parenting is that Because of that journey for me, which is I never thought that I was worthy of love unless I did really really well

I've gone the opposite way which is to basically make sure that my children know that I love them no matter what make sure that my children know that I love them no matter what. I know it sounds obvious, but I think we talk about this term unconditional love a lot. I'm not sure it's as common as we think it is. A lot of the time we believe that the love has conditions attached to it. I think I believe that. I love my parents to bits. I'm not blaming them. I think we're all only able to parent in the way, often the way we were parented, right?

So a lot of the time our parents and us are just doing what we did and what we received. And I thought, I do not want my children to believe that their love for me is conditional on anything. It's not, I love them for who they are. And so I think I've gone to the other extreme to the point where I'm sometimes about their exams, hey guys, doesn't matter, daddy loves you anyway. You know, and I'm thinking maybe I've gone to the other extreme here where, because I don't want them to feel what I felt basically.

Yeah, but on the flip side of that though, that sort of competitiveness that they sort of bred into you through that, but who got higher, what's their names and that, and it made you this really competitive guy. That sort of was a fuel that propelled you through your studies and your later career of books and podcasts and made you know a time when podcasts and is so competitive, you were like, right, I've got to make sure I film it, get it out there. And it's a huge podcast like my mother-in-law is obsessed with it. She listens listens to every night when she goes to sleep. It's a massive deal. You've and now some people to sleep Said you spoke too fast. I found out that you was on times to speed on her phone She was I love it. Be speaks so like, he's not a fast speaker,

he's quite a measured. Anyway, so I changed it. But so that fuel of that competitiveness got you to a position where you've been offered to be a professor at this uni. It means that you can take a step back from your doctor duties to do your books and your podcasts and spend more time with your kids.

Without that fuel to be competitive, do you think you would have got yourself in a successful position in order to have options? That's a brilliant question and something I think about a lot. I've explored this in my new book actually a lot about what this whole idea that things happen for a reason, right? And ultimately who we are today is made up from every single experience that we've ever had. It just is. If I didn't have that, if I was, if I believed as a kid that my self-worth

was not dependent on achievement, would I have, in inverted commas, achieved what I've achieved today? Probably not, I'm guessing, but maybe I would have been happy at an early age. Maybe not like, you know, it's that sliding door thing, right? You know, I will never know. I will never know. But what's really interesting, right? If I reflect on that through the lens of my experience of parenting, I do park run pretty often on Saturday morning with my boy, who's now 14.

We've been doing it on and off since he was, I don't know, six or seven. So it's a really fun thing that we do on Saturday mornings together. And what I've noticed is, which is, it hasn't confused me, but it's got me thinking a lot. Like he's a, you know, he's a competent athlete, right? But he just won't push himself at the end to beat someone, right? When I was that age, if I could beat someone, I would literally go through the pain barrier

because it mattered that much that I was ahead of someone. And then we were like about a year ago, I was like, I think you can take him son. So yeah, I'm quite enjoying this at the moment actually, I'm good. And I thought about that, I thought, well actually maybe, maybe he's got it right. Maybe, you know, time will tell,

but why do you need to push it on a Saturday morning when you're enjoying your run to prove something about yourself? To like, I don't know, I really, I find it so fascinating because, you know, I don't know. I find it so fascinating because I don't know if you guys can resonate with this or not, but in my book, Unhappiness, I wrote about this, right? Where basically, I remember being at university.

And if you'd had a big night out on the Saturday, what we'd often do is go to somewhere called Diane's Pool Hall at Edinburgh, which is this old kind of sort of divey pool hall that had a great jukebox. So we just loved hanging out on a Sunday afternoon, shooting pool, listening to music. And, you know, I thought of myself and still do as a pretty good pool player. I'm a good pool player. I'm a good pool player.

Very competitive. Oh, mate. Next time. You're a serial killer. Let's do it. Come on. But I can still remember being at uni like at 21, I'd be there and if I was losing, I would go into the toilets and I'd give myself a bit of a talking to in the mirror. Honestly, I genuinely would.

How about playing pool? Yeah, and I'd come back out and usually it would work and I would normally win. Not always, but usually. But what I figured out is that I didn't actually enjoy winning. The pain of losing was just too great. And it's a really messed up relationship with doing so because I remember that for much of my life, I actually didn't do stuff that I couldn't be the best at. If I couldn't be really good at. If I couldn't be really good

at it, I wouldn't do it. And it kind of constricts your whole experience of life. And so, you know, go back to your question, Rob, like all of this kind of, you know, you asked the question, you know, would I have achieved this much? I don't know, but maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe, maybe like, maybe we think that achievement is a good thing, right? So we therefore think, yeah, but you wouldn't have made it had you not brought up like that. But maybe it isn't. Maybe actually the happiest people are the people who have not got podcasts, who are not on stage, who are just living their life pretty content with who they are. I often think that. I think, um, if I didn't have to prove these things, if I didn't have to do all these

things it would be a lot easier. But there's something that I need to do these things to whatever. I couldn't not be doing these things if that makes sense. But it would be a lot easier if I didn't have that drive. I think it's a balance. I think it's good to be motivated and want to do something which pushes you and actually, you know, gets you to, you know, have drive, have motivation. I just think it's this really fine balance where I think comes to validation for me. So I think one of the reasons I feel so happy these days is because I no longer need the external validation in the way that I used to. I used to need it. I used to need people to be able to say, oh yeah, that was really good. I generally

don't need that anymore. I validate myself now. And what was the turning point for you? Because we know what you were before and how you feel now. Was it something that... Look, I think it's, I think there's been a process of multiple things. I think being a parent has been a huge part of this, right? Honestly, because being a parent just changes you. You can't be as focused on yourself because there's another person or two people or three, how many kids you have who suddenly look up to you and rely on you, right? And admire you and sort of start copying your behaviors.

Right. Which is a big, it's a big thing for me to actually start sorting myself out was, Hey, wrong. And you've got a pretty vicious negative inner voice. If you don't sort this out, what kind of inner voice do you think they're going to pick up and then have when they're adults? So that was a huge motivation for me, but you know, guys, I don't know how relatable this is at all, right. But honestly, I remember, I remember, um, I remember this moment quite well.

So my first book, The Four-Pillar Plan came out in, end of 2017. First time I had a book out, right? And to be clear, multiple things can be true. I deeply care about people. I'm deeply passionate about trying to help people. At the same time, I think I really was driven a lot or in part by external validation. It doesn't mean I didn't care about people. I did. And I had a need for external validation. And I can remember in the

end of 2017, I'm on a WhatsApp group with my close uni mates, the ones who I used to play pool with in Diane's pool hall. And it was that exciting. The book was sitting at about number seven in the charts. And Joe Wittes was at number one and it kept going up and up and up. And on New Year's Eve, it hit the top spot. And we were all on our little WhatsApp group celebrating and it felt really, really great. The year after my second book comes out, it was, and again, I almost feel a bit embarrassed telling this story because it's like, how relatable is this? Oh, poor you. You had another number one book, right. But I think the message behind it is actually quite important. The second book also gets a number one, but it

took a bit longer. I was like, oh, cool. It felt good, but not as good as the first time. The third book, the year after Feel Better in Five comes out and it still gets there, but it takes about 10 days or two weeks to get there. And I remember at that time thinking, I'm not even happy. I'm just relieved. I thought this is messed up, right? 10 years ago, if someone had told you you'd ever write one book, you'd be like, no way, I'll be an author one day. Not only have I written that one book.

The lead singer from Smokescreen, the guy with the ponytail, shouting at himself in the mirror at the pole hole. That guy. Exactly. And that's when I first realized, oh, this is a con. This is literally a con. This is a myth. You better sort yourself out. And that's never enough if you're, it's got low self-worth essentially, and it comes from external validation.

And whether it's a book or whatever, or a job promotion, whatever it is, it will keep going up. It will keep going up. And to the point where these days, I believe the biggest disease in society is not a cold or a skin problem or cancer. And I say that, I say that with respect, the biggest disease is the disease of more, more money, more followers, more downloads, more holidays.

You know, we think that's going to make us happy. I'm not being, I'm not trying to trivialize people who are struggling to put food on the table and heat the houses. Generally that is an issue, right? So, but once you have those basic needs, Matt, I know it's a cliche, but I really believe it's true is that more money and more things and more achievements once you've had enough, it's not going to make you happier for most people. Now I think you can have it as long as you've got a good relationship with yourself. And that's why, like generally this new book, Make Change at Last, one of the things I'm proud of stuff about that book is I actually think it's going to help people understand

how do you have a balance of both, right? How can I be successful in the modern world and at the same time, like myself, be a good parent, be a good partner, you know, and not have myself work dependent on others. What's up Spotify? This is Javi. I remember this one time we were on tour. We didn't have any guitar picks and we didn't have time to go to the store, so we placed an order on Prime and it got there the next day, ready for the show.

Whatever you're into, it's on Prime. On parenting, one thing that a lot of parents are concerned about, this is a bit of a term, but is mobile phones and screens and all that kind of thing. And that likes and followers, because even for adults that's hard to manage, but for teenagers we'll put up a photo of them at their birthday. I'm addicted to it, I'm fully aware I'm totally addicted to it. My daughter gave me a note going, oh I'm nervous and excited for my party but I'm worried no one will turn up. But then as social media grows and they get a phone, I imagine that's,

how are you dealing with that with your teenagers of likes and followers and things like that? So I believe that children and technology, the early introduction of smartphones into our children's lives, I believe is the most urgent public health issue we have across society. They banned it in Australia, haven't they? Under 16s aren't allowed in social media. Well, as we are having this conversation, and I know this will come out after this, but on Wednesday and Thursday night this week on Channel 4 at 8pm I'm involved with a documentary where we looked at exactly this. It's going to air in literally two days. Oh brilliant.

It is so, so powerful, right? So me alongside Matt and Emma Willis, we went to a school, Stanway School in the south of England. Is that in Colchester? Colchester, yeah. That's where Damon Albarn and Graham Coxham from Blur went to. Sorry, that's such a boring man all barn and Graham Cox and from blur went to sorry That's such a boring. I didn't know they're not upon the wall surprisingly. You think they'd be up on the wall when we went There we go. Yeah, sorry. I'm so boring. No, you're not You forgot about your skin out in another thing

Each and I doldry that is too much information Knowledge that's really good knowledge. We basically went and did this experiment, which has never been done before. 21 days, these year rates, so 12-year-olds and 13-year-olds gave up all technology for 21 days, not just smartphones. What does that cover? TV?

No, it didn't cover TV. So smartphones, laptops, gaming devices devices and tablets, right? And with the University of York, we measured everything. Okay. And it will blow your mind when it comes out this week, I promise you. And if when this comes out, people haven't seen it, go and watch it online. When will this go out? Can we ask what the result is? Because all this will go out after the TV show.

Yeah, I can tell you the results now. I can tell you the results now. So basically after 21 days, the things that they, what was everyone concerned about beforehand? They were all concerned, oh, you know, what am I going to do? Like I'm going to be left out. I'm going to feel socially less connected, right? Top-line results after 21 days. They all, okay. So they all struggled for the first two or three days.

They went through a kind of withdrawal, which I think says a lot. How old are these kids, sorry, but you're... Twelve year old. Twelve and thirteen, right? So it was, it reminded me a bit of when people go off sugar, when they go off alcohol, which is, I think, quite telling in and of itself. Yeah. Once they'd got through the withdrawal, most of them actually were loving it.

And after 21 days, anxiety and depression significantly better. They felt more socially connected than less, which is really interesting because that's what they were scared about. Because what were they doing? They were actually having more real world interactions where they were present and not all together, but distracted by their screens. And then check this out. And I think this is probably the most striking of all the findings, they were sleeping for one hour extra per night. One hour, right? Which is huge, especially at that age.

When you don't sleep, you're more emotionally reactive, you're less able to resist temptation, you're more anxious, your mood goes down, you eat more food, you feel worse about yourself and the world around you. And so I think this is a massive, massive issue. This is not about blame, right? I think every parent is trying to do the best that they can. But I think we've just, we've kind of allowed this technology to insidiously creep in

to our children's lives. And I don't think it needs to be, because obviously you get this situation. so my kids are, we're not there yet because they're three and seven, but you get this situation where, you know, I've heard people say what I'm going to do when we get to secondary school, all the parents are going to agree and we're not, but that's obviously a very difficult thing, you know, so it's going to come down to a thing of your child saying that child's got it, I haven't got it or whatever.

So what have you agreed to? Not until secondary school? No, I haven't done anything. But what I mean is I've heard parents say, but if you think it needs to go to a governmental level. Yeah, so this is not, it's too hard for individuals to do this, individual parents, because peer pressure is massive. And what tends to happen with most people

is a lot of people don't really want their kids to have these devices that early, but the kids will say everyone else has got them. Everyone else has got them. And you don't want your child to be a social outcast. So the solution has to come from multiple different areas. I definitely think all schools should be not allowing smartphones to be used during the school day. I don't think that's that controversial. I presume that was the case. It's not. There's some schools still, so like this is what the Stanford School actually did, although they've, I think they've now changed it based upon the results. They said keep it in your bags, keep it in your pockets. If we see you using it in the day, it'll be confiscated. Yeah. They

all use it in the day. They all use it. You know what it's like. We all remember what it's like being a kid. So I think phones are here and they're here to stay, right? But a lot of schools have this thing where you go in, you give your phone in, it's locked away, you get it back at the end of the day. I think that's a very simple, easy win that all schools can implement immediately. When you go and see American comedians do it a lot, they give you those little pouches

where they seal them and then you can put it in your bag and then you can't get it out at all and then they can seal it on the way out. They do that for concerts. You can easily do that in your form room. You go in. Yeah, and I honestly think by the time, Josh, your kids are older, this situation will have been resolved. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. I'm been resolved. That's why I'm high school.

I've got a nine-year-old. Shit. Could be on the cusp. Well, okay. So hold on. Do I think the government needs to do something? Absolutely. This reminds me of the junk food industry for years, right? Yeah. In every single one of my books, I think there's a case study of someone who's been negatively affected by social media. Right? Because I've seen it. Ten years ago, I saw a 16 year old child who'd harmed themselves at the weekend in the A&E. They came to see me on the Monday. And without

getting into the whole case story, there's no question that it was his use of social media that led to that point. And actually by helping him get off those devices over a period of two or three months, his depression almost vanished. So I've seen it firsthand and I think the government, honestly, I don't really get that political, but I think they've been shocking all of them. Honestly, they're sort of saying, oh, the tech companies, we want better rules. Expecting the tech companies to actually police this, it's ridiculous. Right? You'll see on the show on Wednesday,

TikTok released a statement, right? It's the most bland, ridiculous statement I've ever seen that their PR company wrote for them. Right? TikTok is like the most popular social media platform in this country between four and I think 13 or 14. And they're still maintaining that there are strict things so you can't get on before you're 13 which is a complete joke.

Yeah. Right? The government have to tell these guys what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It's just like with junk food, if you're expecting Haribo to police, I mean they're not going to do it because they're, and I'm not blaming them for not doing it. Of course, it's their business. It's their business, right? Which is why there's governments that do this to protect the country. It's like saying, it's like if I was to bring in, I'll only sell half full theatres because it'll help people get to the toilet.

I'm not going to do that because it's your business. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you need quarter full. Yeah, exactly. I do sell half full fillers, but that's just, that's not intended. It's abandoned energy. But I think what people don't realize, right,

and it's this whole idea that we have rules across society to protect our children. Casinos, right, you can't go in when you're 12, right? You have to wait till you're 18, because we decide that as a society, no, children's wellbeing is important. We don't allow children at 12 to drink alcohol in the pub. We go, no, you've got to wait till you're 18, right? I'd rather my kid have two pints of beer or wait than fucking be on TikTok at 11, do you know what I mean? Well, that's a good point, you know? Because,

you know, just remember what it was like as a child at that, at 12, 13, 14, you're gonna fit in. I'm so glad I didn't grow up in social media. I struggle as an adult, it has therapy. I struggle with social media, you know. Do you think, what could I? I personally, and this is a little controversial, but. Go for it.

Just bang kids. Just, go the other way. Sorry. You know, again, I think this comes to, just to connect this to a previous point, which is this idea that, when you're so dependent on external validation, like I used to be, you're often scared about speaking your mind because you don't want to offend people. You want people to like you and agree with you. Whereas now that I've kind of mostly dealt with that, like I really have, I really feel

that, you know what? I actually quite like myself and how I behave and who I am in the world. I don't need the validation in the way that I used to. I actually don't think social media should be allowed probably before 18. I don't think we're going to see data in the next few years where we go, why on earth did we let these tech companies decide what's best for our kids? Why don't we decide what's best for our kids? Frankly, we struggle as adults with social media.

Yeah, I was going to ask, what's your relationship with your phone and social media like? Because mine is terrible and I beat myself up constantly about it, but I don't know what I can do really beyond the only way I manage to manage my phone is if I just put it in the other room and then I actually, I don't think about it when I'm not with it. If I'm with it, it's here now. You need it for work though to a point in our job

but then that can sometimes be a lazy excuse. Yeah. There's a couple of really important points there, right? So firstly, we have to understand that it's not a human failing. It's not a failing of you. It's not a failing of your children. These things are designed to be addictive

and hijack your attention, right? So there is, you know, we have to be a bit compassionate to ourselves. Okay, it's not like we have a moral problem or failing in ourself. These things are really, really difficult. Okay, so what can we do? You asked me what was my relationship like.

You know, I used to overuse it like everyone, right? And I definitely can fall into that trap again, unless I'm really careful. My daughter, when she was four, I think gave me one of the most powerful lessons in this, right? It was a Sunday, and well, she's 12 now, so it's about eight years ago, right? It was a Sunday. And I remember, I don't know, this tells you, I can't remember what was going on online, but it felt really important to me on that Sunday. And I was playing with her in our living room, but I kept, so I've always had this thing

that I don't wanna be on the phone much around my children, so I'm actually not on it much around them, because I don't wanna give them the signal that this thing is more important than you. I'm not blaming anyone who does, right, to be really clear. I'm just saying it's something I've tried not to do. But what I did instead is I was playing with her, then every few minutes I just nip out into the kitchen and I just have a little cheeky look. Then I go back and play with her. And then at one point she said, hey daddy, you're not really here,

are you? Oh God and that would destroy me it did it was like a dagger into my heart and I thought actually should have film reaction would have gone viral just saying that then you don't watch what that on tick tock yeah tick tock eight years ago actually the first one TikTok eight years ago. I don't know if it's yet actually. It could have been the first one. It could have been the first viral video on TikTok. But we're here to stay.

And I don't know if you guys agree with this or not, but I think children teach us so much more than we teach them. Totally. My entire child has been reflected back at me as my children have got older, where I've looked at it and decided on what my approach would be.

How was I parented at that point? And then you start to find out more about yourself because you look back on that period of your life and you know, when you were with your kids, 100% of the time I've noticed. I completely agree. And also I have a lot, not that I didn't respect my parents at all, I've always respected them, but I'm, I think now... Well you cut your hair and became a doctor, so you definitely did respect them. I did, but I also feel now I have such a deeper appreciation for what they did for me. I'm, I feel now- Well you cut your hair and became a doctor, so you definitely did respect him. I did, but I also feel now, I have such a deeper appreciation for what they did for me.

I'm like, oh wow. You don't really realize until you're a parent yourself, you're like, oh, you juggled work and this, and you took us here on a holiday and you did, oh wow, yeah, thanks guys. I really appreciate that. That must've been really, really hard. But, so my daughter, that was a very powerful lesson for me.

And you said, Josh, something really important. If you keep it in another room, that is game changing. It really is. One of the most important rules about human behavior is if you make something easy, we will do it. It's how all business operates. When Amazon went to one-click ordering about 10 years ago or so, estimates say their profits went up by $300 million a year

from that one move. Why? Because they made it easy. There was four or five steps to take, confirm order, put in your card details, et cetera, et cetera. Every single step is a reason to pull out and not make the purchase. Whereas now, you blink and something's arriving

later that evening, right? It's that easy. You do it. That's why Netflix and YouTube run one video into the next. It's not out of the goodness of their hearts. It's because if they make it easy, you'll do it. So we can apply the same principle when it comes to our phone.

Simply putting it in a different room actually will dramatically reduce your usage. That's one thing you can do. I think also we need to develop some cultural norms around phone use. So we have that with other things, right? So 20 years ago, you didn't set the dinner table with your family and bring the landline there. It was kind of accepted that, you know, you- Or have a newspaper out you, but for that we're having dinner, you know. Yeah, whereas it seems to be like we've got a phone

which is much more than a landline or a newspaper. It's literally got anything. You know, there's research showing us that when a phone is around, we smile 30% less, right? That's how, because the problem is that your brain knows on the other side of this thing is anything you could possibly want.

Yeah, just don't go in. Exactly. So I think we need some rules. I think some good principles in family households are at the dinner table, I think they should be technology free areas. Again, I don't like to prescribe to people what they should be doing. I'm sharing this in case it's useful. What about an electric carving knife? Electric carving knife? Well, I would commit that. Yeah, that's going to be the technology rule.

As long as it's something to carve. Yeah, that's mental if it's something to carve. Yeah, not just for fun. Sue, what are you doing, Dad? What about your kids? What are the rules on social media? Are they allowed social media? Have they got phones?

So, look, at 14 and 12, they're not on social media, right? So, and I think my son might be the only the only kid in his year who's not on Snapchat. Now, I have a very open dialogue with him about this. I'll tell you, my problem is I have seen multiple suicidal teenagers over the past 10 years, is I have seen multiple suicidal teenagers over the past 10 years, who I strongly suspect social media was a huge part of it. I cannot do that to my children knowing that. Is he okay with it or is he trying to...? Look, so my wife and I have multiple conversations with him on this. I genuinely think he is unless he's saying what we want to hear and not telling us. Right.

So, but we do have an open dialogue and I do say, you know, son, if you're not happy or please, you know, do share it with us because we want to know that. I don't think he is. So I'll tell you what my kids have. They've got, they've got, they do have smartphones, but this is, I think the conversation we're not having. Right. So I didn't say my daughter's 12, right?

I did not, she's in year seven, so first, you know, I still have to get it into old money, but you know, first year at high school basically is what she's now in. She did not have a phone until the first year and I, over the summer, I hated it. I was like, she kept saying, daddy, I'm going to be the only kid without one. I'm like, yeah, darling, but you know, can we, so I got them a whole series of dumb phones. I got them the light phone. I went through everything and she's like, daddy, everyone's going to laugh at me. They've all got the latest smartphones. So I said, okay, what is it you want this for? She goes, well, everyone messages on these phones and there's WhatsApp groups. I said okay is there anything

else you want? She said no. I said okay then how about then we get one of my old iPhones and we will just put on messages and WhatsApp. And she said yeah so is there anything else you want? Do you want a camera? No? You want nothing? So literally she has got like a six-year-old iPhone. It's basically a dumb phone because all you can do on it is text and watch that. Because you've done Alienate and more where they can't message but then Snapchat and all that's a different kettle of fish. Yeah, so this seems to be working.

Because they're on roadblocks and stuff, they can message on, like, because they'll find a way to message because there's a million different things. So if they're on roadblocks, like, they can message friends in a chat function on that. But yeah, you don't want them on full social media. But I think letting them have WhatsApp's a good... So it's a... Look, I think it comes down to an intentional approach. And I think frankly, as adults, we can actually ask ourselves the same question.

What are the apps on here that are enhancing our life and which are the ones which are taken away from our life? Because what a lot of us do is we just allow these tech companies to tell us what to put on them. It's like, yeah, I'll have all this stuff on them. But you could go, well, actually, you know, these two apps, like Google Maps, for example, brilliant, really like it, helps me,

or whatever it might be, you can choose. I think the reason, so they don't have Safari on their phone, right, because I think unrestricted internet access is also a massive problem. And guys, wait till you see on Wednesday night the pornography statistics. It's scary. It's how one in four 11-year-olds in the UK have already seen pornography, right? One in four. And there's been studies on this. Oh yeah, I've balanced it the other way. Sorry.

But the first time a new user goes on one of the world's most popular pornographic websites, there is a very, very high chance that they are either going to see non-consensual sex or violence. This is how alarming this situation is, right? We're having our kids now are being exposed to some pretty graphic and worrying material at a very, very young age.

Of course that's gonna impact their view of intimacy and what it means to be in a relationship and stuff. So I kind of think that we as a society have to, all of us collectively come together and go, okay, enough's enough, like what can we do here? But I do think the government needs to take charge here. Do you think it will happen? The only way is a governmental way where they can put blocks on certain things or you know

ban kids from stuff and it needs to be law I think. The sad thing is right, on that very first day when we were filming, right, the very first day, all the children put in their phones and their technology into a box in the school kind of, in one of the big rooms. You know, it's the telly, it looks really cool. You see in this glass box all of the devices going in. And then that evening, me, Matt and Emma Willis, we had an evening with the parents. And only a little bit ultimately makes the edit, right, which we see.

But I tell you, pretty much every parent said to us, I feel we've lost our children to their devices. And then when you ask them, none of them really want their children on those devices. They're just giving them to them so they can fit in with everyone around them. And I thought, as I went back to the hotel that night, I thought this is ridiculous. Parents say we're losing our kids to devices. We don't want them on it. It's affecting them negatively. It's affecting their relationships, but we're all doing it because we think everyone else is on it. I thought this is madness. We must be able to start back and go, wait

a minute, if we're not wanting wanting this let's do something about this. They just want to be left out from smoking so I've given them some cigarettes because everyone's smoking at the spot. Guys we don't see it like that but we should do. Yeah totally. It really is. I think I use my phone in the same way that people do smoke in the sense of if I'm stressed it takes me out of the situation yeah if I'm in a situation where it's kind of it's almost it's just a crutch to get like if I'm not feeling very good I'll go on my phone

a lot more the problem is though I find with that is that society's built around needing a phone so if I want to go and park my car I could have my bank card with me and cash and park my car and I could have my bank card with me and cash and park my car and they'll go ring the app or ring the number or download the app. And I'm like, well, so I have to have a phone to exist now. Just little bits like that is so hard to get around anywhere or do stuff. So it is like, but if they can put blocks on stuff, I think, I don't know, but it's definitely a governmental level.

It's a great point. It is getting harder and harder. There's no question. So I think for children, I think we need to be a bit stricter, like we are with alcohol, with gambling, with all those kinds of things. I think as adults, we all have to figure out what are the things we can do. I live in a house. If I bring my phone upstairs in the evening, I can't resist going on it. So when I'm living my best life, the phone stays in the kitchen to charge. Right?

Yeah. And when the phone stays downstairs in the kitchen to charge, like everything's better. Like I have better sleep, I'm more chilled. I always go, but I need it for my alarm as if alarm clocks don't exist. Yeah. I know. That's one of the worst excuses we all make. It's like, you could just get a five-point alarm clock.

But the other thing is, I'm a bit old school. I still got a landline. Oh wow. I don't know if you guys have a landline. No, no, no landline. Are you allowed to say that? Does that make you feel... I'm fascinated. You're not going to get cancelled, mate. Don't panic. So the reason I've got a landline is because it really helps me with this phone issue, which is

only my family, like my mom, my brother, and my really close mates have my landline number, which basically means I can in the evening, when I want to, I can switch off this smartphone. And I know basically anyone who really needs to get me about something important can do And I tell you it's a nice sound excuse you make to yourself What if you know someone I know has a heart attack or whatever do you know what I mean? What are you gonna do to fucking sort it out? What am I gonna do if suddenly someone needs to get in touch with me that That's your alarm, you're kind of, I'll do the one I need it for work so much in my head.

Can I tell you one of the bigger, more philosophical things that I think is the issue with our children having these devices, and you kind of touched on it with what you guys said before about, when you feel a bit uncomfortable and things aren't going well, you distract yourself by anything on this, which is what we all do, right? When we feel a discomfort, that genuinely, the central message in this new book of mine, Make Change at Last, is basically saying the reason we can't make changes that last is because we're not understanding the role.

Every single behavior in our life serves a role. Too often we try and change the behavior without understanding the role it plays in our life. When you understand the role, behavior change actually becomes a lot easier. But when it comes to children, if you as a well-functioning, I think I could call you a well-functioning adult, is that?

Yeah, like Rob is, yeah. Now, I think most of the time you are, Josh, you're having a tough week. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna say, Josh, from what I've seen today, I think you're a well functioning adult. I think so. And that's official diagnosis. So if you are saying at your age now, with all your life experience, you are using a

phone to distract yourself, what does that do to a child? Everything good in our life comes from our ability to be present, right? Our relationships, our work, our creativity, whatever it might be. And my real worry, we can talk about, yes, they're accessing pornography. Yes, that worries me. We need to change that. But I think there's a much bigger, broader view here, which is if we're teaching little humans now that you never have to sit with discomfort, you

never have to understand what you're feeling because there's always a quick fix. I worry in 10, 20 years what kind of society we're going to have. If you cannot sit with discomfort, you cannot really make meaningful changes in your life for good. You really can't. We can talk about addictions, but I would argue that most of us have got these low grade addictions now in society. They may not need alcoholics anonymous, right? But maybe if smartphones anonymous existed, maybe many of us would be sort of signing up, right? So I think that ability to be present is something we really

need to teach our children. I think the other uncomfortable truth for many of us is, look, I've been a parent now for almost 15 years, right? I would say the number one thing I've learned is that children don't do what you tell them to do, they do what they see you doing. But that's probably the number one thing I've learned. And therefore, we can't really tell our kids to get off their devices if we're also scrolling our email at the same time.

Put your iPhone away and use that on TikTok in the front row. Yeah, so I think we also, again, it's not about blame, it's just about saying, well maybe we can look at our own behaviours a little bit, particularly in front of the children, and go, well what sort of behaviours are we modelling to our children? Yeah, absolutely fascinating. That's amazing, we'll have to get you back on to do another one. I've loved this. Can we ask you, your podcast, which is absolutely massive

and incredibly, I don't know whether, I'm sure you've got the stats of who listens, but both of our mother-in-laws are huge fans. What percentage of listeners are mother-in-laws to your podcast? You know, I make phone- It's 100% in this room. I think what I'll do is I'll phone Apple and Spotify and say, guys, listen, when you give us the demographics, you don't have a mother-in-law category.

And Rob and Josh think that would be a very useful demographic to understand. Or mother-in-laws of comedians. I actually don't know. Feel Better, Live More. That's of comedians. Son-in-law's. I actually don't know. Feel Better, Live More. That's a great title. Feel Better, Live More. And what was your most recent book? It's called?

Well, the one that comes out now, the brand new one is called Mate Change That Lasts, which I think it's my best one. Yeah, it's my sixth one. It's nine simple ways to break free from the habits that hold you back. And it's not that unrelated to this conversation with you. It's like, how do you actually make change in your life that lasts? How do you make change beyond January, beyond February?

If it gets to number 20 and no higher in the charts, how are we feeling? Now, this is a, I mean, I've got a great answer. First time you've been stuck for words. No, you know, truth is right, honestly And I know this is a gonna be a bit of a serious answer right? I'm totally okay with that and I'll tell you why I've realized that I've already won by writing this book. Why because I wrote the book Enjoy the I did I loved it

Enjoy the... I did. I loved it. The last two and a half years of writing this has helped me so much. And I've done, you know, have you read the Rick Rubin book, The Creative Arts? Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah. And Rick's amazing. I had just a beautiful conversation with him on my podcast about a couple of years ago

about all these ideas. And you know, Rick will say you cannot, that the very best art does not get made with the audience in mind. And I freaking love that. And I really, this book, I, yes, I wrote it to help people, but primarily I wrote it to help myself. I wrote it to help me understand the human condition, why it is we go to certain behaviors,

why we can't make those behaviors sustainable in the long term. So actually, to directly answer your question, if this only makes number 20 in the charts, right, I'm okay with that because I've already won by writing it. I know it's a great book and I'd say that with no arrogance, right? I really believe that this is a fantastic book that will give people wisdom that can keep coming back to month after month, year after year, but I don't need people to tell me that. If people don't like it, I still

like myself for writing this book. And that's the big difference now for me. And plus, crucially, the way publishing works, you've already got the advance. Let's face fact, yeah. Once that deal's fine. He also writes in that book, guys, and you guys may really resonate with this. He talks about all these artists that, you know, for people who don't know Rick Grubin has been producer to, you know, everyone from Jay-Z to Neil Young to the Red Hot Chili Peppers to Adele, right? So he's done everything. And he will write about the dangers of having an audience, right? Because if you already have an audience, the temptation then is to not get

creative and push the boundaries. Just the temptation is just to appease your audience. And for the last two and a half years, what I've been saying to Penguin is, guys, this is a very different book. I'm not gonna write a book that I've already written. This is different. I'm gonna be pushing myself, putting out new ideas to the world.

And I said, you guys are gonna have a bias for me to actually just stay back a little bit to give the audience what they think they want. I'm not gonna do that because you can have commercial success doing that, but I think you can lose your soul along the way. So I feel that I've nourished my soul in writing this and, you know, what happens now is out of my control basically. Brilliant. That's great. It's such an amazing conversation. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. Do the final question? Yeah, yeah, I think so.

We always ask at the end, because we haven't actually asked about your direct parenting that much, but beyond the kind of passing on the jobs thing. So does that mean we get to do it again, part two, because I've loved it? Yeah, definitely. Let's do part two. The point, the question then is, with your partner, your wife, what's the one thing she does as a parent that just blows your mind and you just think that is why I am so pleased that she's the mother

to my children, and what is the one thing that she does, maybe a minor thing that's quite annoying, and you haven't brought it up with her but were she to listen to this this would be a way to pass it on to her. Wow okay so firstly my wife is just the most amazing mother honestly she really is and I would say the the one thing there are many things she does phenomenally well the one thing I think she does incredibly well, which is probably why I now do it, because I've learned it from her,

from a very, very young age, when the kids were young, she would always listen to them so attentively, like even as a three-year-old, what they said really, really mattered. She would take it seriously it seriously she would give them proper answers I don't know that sounds like a small thing but I think I grew up I think my parents very much were from the generation where you know kids what the kids know right yeah kids are piping up in the background I again I'm not criticizing any parent from that generation I just don't think that I felt my voice as a three, four, five, six-year-old had real, real validity for my parents to take seriously, but she does. And I've learned that and I thought, wow, so we have the most incredible conversations now with the children at the dinner

table, at the bread. You know, I have podcast guests coming to the house every week because the studio is in my garden and I'm always chatting to to the children. I'm saying they're always saying, you know, Did Rick Rubin come to your garden? He was going to. And then three days beforehand, we got an email saying, Rangan, we're really, really sorry. He has to fly back to LA urgently. Any chance you can come to London. And if it wasn't Rick Rubin, I know it's right gone. But if if if if little Rangan, who had posters of John Bon Jovi on his wall and Rick Rubin didn't produce Bon Jovi, no. If if you had told him that one day you're going to be able to sit in a room

with the Rick Rubin and speak to him about whatever you want and you didn't take it. I'm not sure what he would have thought of his feature. So I did. I had a studio in London, I got on the train. Oh, he's made you a flight. It his feature self. So I did, I had a studio in London, I got on the train. I always met you off-line, haven't I? Yeah, so I did do that. So yeah, I would say that's the biggest quality I would say that I'm drawn to from my wife. And honestly, maybe this is the unconventional answer

in terms of the second part of that question. I don't even, I can't honestly say this is something that she does that irritates me. I think she's Shit to me Thing in a life I'm sorry, I'm going, I'm missing a bit, I'm going, yeah, come on, like, whatever. As long as you don't add it out that first bit right at the very start of the conversation. Is that the start of a strategy? She's a couple of Guinnesses down in the long term. She's a great mum, basically.

Oh, brilliant. All right, fair enough, mate. Thank you so much for doing this. We'll definitely get you back. Yeah, I love that. Thank you guys, I appreciate it. And Josh, I hope you're cold and your skin gets better soon. Thank you, that's the kid. Can you just say, Teresa Watts,

thank you for listening to the podcast. That's my mother-in-law, she'll love that. Teresa Watts, thank you so much for listening to the podcast and always remember, never on double speeds, always on the speed of which it's meant to be listened to. Cheers, thanks mate, you've been brilliant. Cheers, thanks, Rongan.

Cheers guys, thank you. Rongan Chatterjee. Doctor. Doctor, Rongan Chatterjee. That was great, wasn't it? Fascinating. guys thank you. It's great to have really interesting stuff, but also as well people coming for laughs. I've got a slip in a couple You should apologize at the end. I'm gonna fucking shoot Me I think we're both talking at once. Yeah, very good. They enjoyed that loved it. What a guy He just bought a toaster. I'm gonna go listen to him interview Rick Rubin That's a good one. Yeah

Also, when everyone comes my garden, there's no fucking way Ruben came to your one. Yeah, I'd like to get... Also, when everyone comes to my garden, I was like, there's no fucking way Ruben came to your garden, mate. Oh yeah, his diary's just changed. Fuck off. Fern Cotton's always getting people in her garden. Pardon? When she's doing her podcast, she's always... Yeah, but she lives in London.

Yeah. No, like, it's lovely where he lives up near Manchester, but Ruben's up for it. No, if you're trying to put Jamie Carragher... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bye!