Robin's Nest from American Humane - Protecting Giants: Dr. Arnaud Desbiez on Saving the Giant Armadillo and Giant Anteater

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

In this upcoming episode of Robin's Nest, Dr. Robin Ganzert sits down with Dr. Arnaud Desbiez, the 2024 Kiessling Prize award-winner and President/Founder of the Wild Animal Conservation Institute (ICAS) in Brazil. Dr. Desbiez shares his groundbreaking work in protecting two of the most iconic and vulnerable species in South America—the giant armadillo and the giant anteater. His research and conservation efforts focus on not only safeguarding these species from extinction but also training landowners to protect their land from wildfires, ultimately protecting both their livelihoods and the habitats of these extraordinary creatures. Dr. Desbiez reflects on the power of communication in conservation, offering a powerful reminder that “you don’t need to be a biologist to be a conservationist.” Tune in for an inspiring conversation about the importance of collaboration and the dedication it takes to protect our planet’s most endangered species.

Welcome to Robin's Nest. Many of us feel a deep bond with animals, from the pets we cherish at home to the endangered species in nature. Join us for lively, informative conversations where together we will build a more humane world. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest today, the 2024 Keasling Prize recipient, Dr. Arnaud Debier. Arnaud is a renowned conservation biologist who founded the Wild Animal Conservation Institute and the Giant Armadillo Conservation Project. We'll dive into his extraordinary work in protecting endangered species, his innovative approach to wildlife conservation, and his hopes for

the future. Arnaud, thank you so much for coming. And first of all, I love your name. I know you're French, right? So please pronounce your name in that beautiful voice. So Arnaud Debier. Arnaud Debier. I can't say it properly because I'm a southern girl and we just always mess up all of our

beautiful languages. But thank you so much for joining us today's episode of Robin's Nest. I know we're here to celebrate the fact that you are this year's international Keasling Prize winner for species conservation. You really have an amazing background that we're going to hear about today. So proud to know you, proud of your accomplishments and your achievements for the benefit of the animals, and I'm so proud to meet a fellow passionate advocate like you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Well thank you so much and thank you

so much for having me and I am so so grateful to be this year's recipient of the Wolfgang Kiesling 2024 Species Conservation Award. That's really, really great. So well, as you mentioned, I was born in France, but I spent my childhood in the United States. Where in the US? New York. New York.

Yeah. And so kind of moved back and forth from them. But I've been living now in Brazil for 22 years. So it's been quite a while. And I started my career in conservation, actually, working as a zookeeper. Oh, so tell us a little bit about your work as a zookeeper when you started out.

So yeah, so my first job, I've always loved animals and so that's what I started working with, as a zookeeper working mostly with mammals. And so I did that for a few years then, did the classic university degrees. And I worked in different countries, Argentina, Bolivia, Nepal, Belize, and ended up in Brazil for my PhD. And then I met the woman who became my wife, and so I ended up staying in Brazil. That's wonderful.

Well, you know, we think of Brazil as a biodiversity hotspot. We think of Brazil as such an incredible place to work with animals. So I'm sure that's what attracted you, besides your beautiful wife, but the passionate work that you're able to do. And you and I were talking as we're starting Robin's Nest today about what's going on in Brazil in terms of the state of conservation. Can you share with people so that we understand? Because we don't talk about it much here. Well, yes, right now as we record this in

September 2024, in many ways Brazil as a country is burning, we've had a very prolonged drought and so for the Amazon, Pantanal and Cerrado, which are different ecosystems found in Brazil, there has not been, there hasn't been a rainy season. And so we're having a really prolonged drought. And we are now experiencing a lot of criminal fires. So people putting intentionally fire to ecosystems and grounds.

And so the country is undergoing many, many fires. And if you look at a satellite image of South America, this drought is also occurring in other countries. And you can see Paraguay, Bolivia, a lot of places are really, really burning. So it's quite a catastrophe that we are going through right now. And we don't talk about it, at least not in the States. It's not in the headlines in the States at all. You said criminal fires. So least not in the states, it's not in the headlines in the states at all. You said criminal fires, so in addition to the drought, there is a group of criminals that are lighting up?

A lot of people are doing this, yes, because this is a way of sometimes claiming lands, destroying natural habitats to be able to then claim them for agriculture, for other reasons. It's also a way of opposing the government, And so there are lots of different reasons for them to put fires on. But because of the drought, they're almost impossible to extinguish. So how long have you been in the country again? So I have been living in Brazil for now 22 years. 22 years. What changes have you seen? Oh, well, you know, so I've worked, I started working in the Pantanal and then

that's, so it's the world's largest freshwater wetland. It's found in the center of the South American continent and it's a really beautiful biome because the Pantanal, 95% of it is privately owned by extensive cattle ranchers. So it's these gigantic ranches that can that are thousands and thousands of square miles. So really really big. And I think it was it was one of the only very few examples of a tropical ecosystem where man lives in harmony with nature. However we have seen that changing and as other biomes have become more developed, there have been people from outside coming in the Pantanal, ranches have been getting

smaller and there has been more exploitation. And so we have seen extensive changes in the Pantanal. The other biome I work in, which is the Sehado, which is sort of like a scrub forest, that has been taken over by monocultures, especially soy, eucalyptus, plantation, sugar cane, these commodities which have been really absolutely changing the landscape. We have an area, we have a long-term study on giant antedrifts and this year we are leaving that area because all the habitat around has been destroyed and transformed into has been legally transformed into these monocultures and we have we have been witnessing the Extinctions of the extinction of the animals we work in we work with so describe a monoculture again

So our listeners to Robin's Nest will understand what that means So monocultures when you have just one culture, so of a specific plant, it can be corn, it can be soy, and in Brazil, that means it's a large expanse of just this one plant. So a natural environment is extremely biodiverse, and that means lots of different species, lots of different habitats, and it's this mosaic

of lots of different habitats that is rich rich and means that wild animals can thrive. However, when you plant just one species, and usually this also means using pesticides, chemicals to help them grow, avoid pests, you poison the environment for other species and only that species will grow. It is no wonder that we are experiencing droughts in Brazil when you think about the global context of climate change, but also the local context of removing all the native habitat. We are witnessing a lot of changes in the natural world and that is one of the things our work focuses on with my organization is to try to mitigate or eradicate threats to wildlife.

So I'm so glad we opened with the conversation about where is Brazil now in terms of this, because I think we have romanticized Brazil as this incredible Amazon. You can imagine the old growth trees. We've heard of logging, removing a lot and all of that, but I don't think we understand the vast nature and the devastating impact of this drought, fires,

as you describe one crop plantings for miles and miles, and all of that's completely disturbed what has been the biodiversity hotspot for the world. I mean, truly, when you think about that area and that region, it's so important. Let's talk about your work, because you've devoted your life to making a difference for those very important species that are fighting every day the threat of extinction. So tell us a little bit about the Wild Animal Conservation Institute that I know is so incredible

and your work with these incredible armadillos and anteaters. Yes, so thank you so much. The Wild Animal Conservation Institute in Portuguese is Instituto de Conservação de Animais Silvestres. You said it better than I could. Today we are 25 people, 25 staff full time and these are biologists, veterinarians, communicators, educators, social scientists, so a diversity of backgrounds. And we also have five interns and seven students completing their degrees. Master's, PhD, postdocs. So it's quite a large group of people and

our mission is to promote a more harmonious coexistence between people and animals. What started kind of as wanting to save the giant armadillo from extinction is now really a project that tries to work with the local communities that live with biodiversity to try to find solutions so that people and wildlife can thrive together. So what's happening to the giant armadillos in this area? Why are they threatened? So they're not a food source, right? In some places they can be, such as the Amazon. In some places they are hunted. It's actually all the, we work in four different biomes,

the Pantanal, the Cerrado, the Amazon, and the Atlantic Forest. And in each of these biomes, the species faces different threats. So for example, in the Pantanal, where we have a long-term field research going on, almost nothing was known about this species before we started really studying this animal. So we've been studying a population for now

yeah 12, no 14 years. One of the main threats in the Pantanal is these fires we were talking about. And so what we did with other partners, we put together a community fire brigade. And so we worked with 22 different ranches and we provided the equipment and provide yearly training so that the landowners and the ranch workers are able to combat and fight any out of control fire before it destroys the whole area. Which would destroy the habitat for the armadillos. It would destroy the habitat for the armadillos but also the livelihood of the ranches. So it's really some work that we do hand in hand.

Often when you look at it, a lot of the issues we face, we all want the same thing. We all want thriving ecosystems. It makes economic sense and it's good for biodiversity. We often get caught up in these short-term solutions. And so one of the things we often do is try to work with the people living with biodiversity and try to find ways so that they can coexist peacefully with wild animals. To mitigate or even remove and eliminate human-animal conflict. Absolutely, and a good example of that is our work with beekeepers.

In the Cerrado, which has been extremely deforested, beekeepers place their beehives at the edge of native habitat. So native habitat is just the regular trees, the native trees. And that's also where the giant armades live and because the habitat is restricted. They have also learned now to knock over the beehives So they can destroy the livelihood of beekeepers very quickly. Yes. Yes, and so So we conducted interviews to better understand the problem the And we found that in Mato Grosso do Sul, the state where we work, we did 200 interviews. We found that for 50% of these beekeepers,

the honey was their main source of income. So the giant armadillo could actually destroy their whole livelihood. Unbelievable. And would they do that to eat the honey? No, actually, no. They eat the larvae. So they just eat the larvae.

They don't eat the honey. But when they they do that they knock over the beehive and they rip open the beehive and then and so they destroy the livelihood so we have there are several solutions and so you can raise the beehives one meter thirty you can fence there are all kinds of ways and we've described 15 different methodologies that can be used we've tested them and so beekeepers that apply these methodologies receive a certification which is something I know American Humane does a lot. So we provide them with a giant armadillo friendly certificate that can help them promote their honey.

And so we now have 150 beekeepers we're working with the Matugro Susu. This has provided they get a higher price for their honey when they use this and it saves their production. So it's really win-win. For those smaller beekeepers that don't commercialize their honey, we provide them with queen bees. So we raise queen bees, distribute about 10 of them so that they can actually improve their production so that people feel that coexisting with giant armadillos is a positive is something great and so having giant armadillos around you provides you know benefits and so and

this is a really incredible program because we work it is coordinated and we work with the beekeepers we have meetings every two weeks and all the project decisions, what we should be doing happens with them. So it's really fun. And I think it's a good example of showing how when we are creative, listen to the people who are living the problem, we can find solutions that benefit everybody. What I'm sitting back on, and in awe first of all, thinking about the way that you have solved so many problems.

So when you think about the work of a conservationist, most people think they're out tracking mega fauna, they're maybe even relocating, you know, those kinds of things. But what you're really doing is brilliant. You're actually looking at this creature under threat and you're solving all of those obstacles around that in a broader ecosystem that really means talking to the humans about their problems with the animals. Absolutely. I think the secret is communication. We live in such a polarized world where they're opposite sides. And if you think about it, we all want the same thing. So it's a matter of being open to these conversations.

And conservation is a very multidisciplinary science. And sometimes I speak to teenagers saying that they want to work in conservation and saving animals in the wild. And I really think that no matter what your background is, you don't have to be a biologist or a veterinarian to do this kind of work. Whatever you are passionate about,

you can apply to conservation. You can be an artist right now in Campo Grande, the city where I live, we have an artist that's making this giant mural of a giant armadillo and a giant anteater so that you know so that People get you know enchanted and fall in love with the species we work with so you can be an artist You can be a lawyer you can be an educator can be a communicator I think all these different professions are useful for conservation, but absolutely I think the secret is communication

What we're doing right now, this podcast, is a way of broadcasting these different ideas of speaking to different people. That is so, so, so important. Yes, absolutely. And I do love your attention to problem solving, and it's action-oriented. Yes. So I think that's so important now too, because we are in the midst of such a crisis. Yes. And before we talk about the larger crisis, climate change, all of those kinds of issues that are so real,

we've talked a little bit about the armadillo. You also love these giant anteaters which are amazing and great creatures. So tell us a little bit about your work with anteaters. So the anteaters as you can see are such an odd-looking species. I mean, they're absolutely majestic They have this giant bushy tail. They have this elongated snout and they slurp ants with their gigantic tongue They walk on their knuckles. So they're quite a sight to see they're a very odd-looking animal But giant anteaters on and are unfortunately also threatened with extinction giant anteaters are unfortunately also threatened with extinction and they have, there are many different threats. But the threat that our organization has focused on has been road

kill and they are the third most killed animal on our roads in our state. And so this is because it's a nocturnal species that travels a lot. Their eyes do not reflect light. And because they're nocturnal, so when they cross at night, people don't see them and end up hitting them. And so we're working a lot with our local state authorities and federal authorities to try to change the threat of wildlife vehicle collisions. And so just as we were talking about, how do we solve problems?

Well, we want to save giant anteaters, but the way we frame the problem, which has been much more successful, instead of talking about the numbers of anteaters and animals killed on the roads, we have flipped the question a little bit to show our authorities that when you hit a large animal such as an anteater, a capybrow, a taper, you are threatening human lives. People die on our roads. Just like here in the U.S. with the deer, the wild boar, it is dangerous. And so what we've been talking about with the local authorities is making roads safe for all. If you talk about wildlife, they'll be like, oh, you know, they'll shed a tear, that's so sad, but they won't pay attention. When you show them that this is killing people that

our roads and our highways are not safe and that there are solutions we have been able to map the hot you know the wildlife vehicle collision hot spots we know what to do we have shown the importance of underpasses that are fenced with our with our what anteaters that had radio callers on, we showed that only 1% of them were using the underpasses. So if they're not fenced, this is not a proper mitigation strategy. So we've been really focusing on showing there are solutions, and we're doing this to save lives, both animals and people.

And humans. And that has helped a lot, and that has helped advance our cause. It's tremendous. So you're providing the policymakers all they need to be able to make the right decision that also impacts humans and animal lives. I love that. Because we did learn you know we learned when you're making policies. I was taught you know going through the academic route or having a PhD that science was about publishing the paper and providing that knowledge. But the truth is, nobody reads our papers, nobody sees them and they're written in a language that people don't understand. So it's, we

as conservationists have to bring this science to the decision makers and sometimes building capacity with the decision makers so that they can understand the threats that we are talking about so Robin it's absolutely about communication I think that's what that's what we're talking about is about knowing how to communicate the science if we want to make a change Well, you're an exceptional communicator, which brings me to the to the point That's one of the reasons you won the Kiesling Prize, which also comes with a tremendous stipend. And it's a sizable prize for you to do with what you wish.

What are you going to do with the Kiesling Prize stipend? So this is, you're absolutely right, this is a huge amount, this is a huge sum, and we are so grateful to the Kiesling Award for providing this. And we would like to invest this funding in capacity building. And so we have interns, so to train interns from Brazil in Campo Grande, provide them with a stipend so that they can learn different aspects of conservation. So communication, education, coexistence, but also using the funds to bring conservationists, young conservationists from other parts of South America

to come work with us. And so we're hoping to work with the Mammal Society of Columbia to bring two Colombian conservationists per year to Brazil. And we started working in Paraguay. And now with the prize prize we're hoping to extend that to other regions because the species we work with both the giant armadillo and the giant antedrurk occur throughout South America so it's really important that we also communicate and find

these different solutions. And I love that you're working with the next generation of conservationists and next generation of leaders with the prize, which is tremendous because we want this prize to serve, to inspire. And which brings me back to the creatures to which you have devoted your life. Are they absolutely endangered? Have you seen those numbers change? Yes. So both of the species we work with, the giant armadillo and giant antelope, both

of them are threatened with extinction. On the IUCN Red List? On the IUCN Red List, they're both listed as vulnerable to extinction. And it's particularly troubling for the giant armadillo because this is a giant species. They're five feet long. They can weigh 80 pounds. However, they're 5 feet long, they can weigh 80 pounds, however they live underground, they spend 80% of their time underground and they come out only at

night to feed on ants and termites. But this also means that nobody sees them. The owner of the ranch in the Pantera when we started working, she had been living there for over 50 years, she was born there, 50, 5-0, she was born there, lived there her whole life, and she had never seen a giant armadillo. Oh my goodness. So this is a species that can disappear without anybody noticing, and I find that really, really troubling because these burrows that they live in, and they build a new burrow

every two or three years, are used by lots of other species. Giant armadillos are what we call ecosystem engineers. So they basically give homes to other species. Just like the otter. Just like the beaver for example. Beaver builds dams and then you know that creates a whole new ecosystem. Well the giant armadillos kind of do that. The gopher tortoise in Florida does that. And so these are really important species. Right. And yet you can imagine that a giant dromedary can disappear and nobody would notice. And that really breaks my heart. Well that is heartbreaking.

That is devastating. And I'm sure the IUCN is doing population census and trying to capture the numbers right, but it has to be very challenging. Yes, so they do that with the red list. They try to look at the trends and try to understand so they can classify species. And that is an important tool for governments to work with. And we do have with the Brazilian government,

we do have a national action plan for giant armadillos and giant anteaters. And my organization, ICAS, is responsible, I think, for almost over 70% of the actions. Oh my goodness. Well, your work has such incredible impact. Let's pivot back to some of these larger issues that we talked about.

We started our conversation with Brazil is burning. That's very serious, and it's hard for us to reconcile that when we think of the incredible biodiversity there. It's really hard, that is heartbreaking, truly heartbreaking. Climate change, do you experience it? Do you see it? So I do believe that the drought we are experiencing, climate change is, science tells us that climate change is exacerbating the effects that we are observing.

So for example, for the Pantanal and the Ce Serado where I work, deforestation in the Amazon, because we get our rain from the flying rivers of the Amazon. So the clouds, so the Amazon brings us the rain and so deforestation. We had an El Nino year that was impacting and then local deforestation and climate change so it's a lot of these factors that together are contributing to this extreme weather and we have been breaking records of heat that we have never experienced before and the level the water levels of the rivers has never been this dry so we're actually I think we're experiencing what was predicted to happen in, you know, 2050. It's, we seem to be experiencing that now. And it does, it is a little bit troubling to see that

we're not, we're not hearing too much about major changes in policy to address these kinds of issues. Yes, and we're running out of time. And we are running out of time. And it's irreversible. We're reaching the tipping point. Yes, we are, and it frightens me. We've talked a lot about those kinds of scary scenarios which are so frightening, and we're living this and we understand the complexities. I need hope every day when I get up, and I'm sure you do too.

What's a story of hope that you can share with our listeners in Robin's Nest today? Well, I think if you look at the global issues, I agree with you that the world is absolutely frightening and it does kind of make you want to curl up in a ball and disappear. Maybe burrow in with that giant armadillo. But then when you start, when you have, when you're lucky enough to do the work I do and then work with local communities and work with people, you can see that there are lots of smaller local solutions that we can find. And I do believe in people.

I do believe that basically humans are good. And so I see a lot of change occurring at the small local level. The enthusiasm of beekeepers that are promoting giant armadillo conservation, landowners, ranch workers that are fighting, combating fires and working together, collaborating several ranches to protect the land.

Dog owners, we have worked with domestic dog owners to co-exist with wildlife because there is that challenge sometimes of dogs spreading diseases and so we work with landowners and seeing the response of the guardians and how they respond to that. The environmental education work that we do in schools and you see the enthusiasm that the next generation has. The capacity building work that the Kiesling Award will be helping to fund is absolutely inspiring. We want to focus and have been focusing on a more diverse and inclusive group and we have had, this year we have our first indigenous intern. And so a lot more diversity in our groups and seeing different visions and how we can

do different things. So I think, and I would encourage our listeners, if you are stressed out about what you hear about going into work, go volunteer with your local conservation organizations for the local native habitat. You know there's work you can do with pollinators, there's all kinds of work. I think wherever you live you can see there are local organizations that are doing some great work locally and I think that that's where we can all have a great impact. So so I think there are many reasons to be hopeful and I do think we have to believe in human kindness and you can find that sometimes when you look at your neighbor or very close

by you can find that. That's beautiful and it does bring me hope too because I do believe all conservation is local at the end of the day. It makes a huge difference and the work you're doing in Brazil is to be commended. Thank you so much and thank you so much for having me. Oh, thank you. This has been an incredible conversation with our 2024 prize winner, the International Prize for Species Conservation, Arnaud Debier.

And what a worldwide leader, one who brings me such great hope for the future, especially as he inspires and trains the next generation of conservationists. Thank you so much for what you do, and it's a pleasure to be with you today. Well, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to Robin's Nest. We want to hear what you think. Please make sure to review the podcast on your podcast platform. Watch for upcoming episodes that will include new and exciting discussions.

If you love animals, you'll love this season of Robin's Nest.