Robin's Nest from American Humane - The Language of Dolphins: Exploring Marine Communication with Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

In this episode of Robin’s Nest, Dr. Robin Ganzert sits down with Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski, a pioneering marine mammalogist and expert in dolphin communication. As the Director of the Dolphin Communication Project, Dr. Dudzinski has dedicated her career to understanding the complex ways dolphins interact through sound and movement. She shares insights into her groundbreaking research and the innovative Mobile Video/Acoustic Array (MVA) technology, which has revolutionized the study of dolphin behavior.Dr. Dudzinski also discusses what it means to be a Kiessling Prize finalist and the importance of fostering a deeper human-animal bond through education and conservation. Tune in for a fascinating conversation about the mysteries of dolphin communication, surprising discoveries, and the future of marine research.Don’t miss this inspiring episode of Robin’s Nest!

Welcome to Robin's Nest. Many of us feel a deep bond with animals, from the pets we cherish at home to the endangered species in nature. Join us for lively, informative conversations where together we will build a more humane world. Today we're delighted to have Dr. Kathleen Dzezinski, a leading expert in dolphin communication

and marine mammal behavior, on the show. As a director of the Dolphin Communication Project, Dr. Duzinski has spent decades studying the complex social interactions of dolphins in their natural habitats. We'll explore her fascinating research on dolphin communication, her groundbreaking field work, and the importance of protecting these intelligent marine species. Gosh, I'm so glad that Dr. Kathleen Dzezinski has joined us today in Robin's Nest. She has been a hero of mine for a really long time. She has done extraordinary work with one of my favorite creatures, the dolphins.

And her research is really the go-to research when anyone talks about interactions with dolphins. They talk about Dr. Kathleen Dzezinski. She's also been an incredible leader in our certification programs, providing valuable advice and counsel on how to certify the humane treatment of animals in various environments. That, friends, is highly complex and sophisticated work rooted in solid research and evidence-based science. And so we're going to have a great time in Robin's Nest talking with Kathleen. So here we go. Tell me, how are you?

I'm well. Thank you so much for having me here. It's a pleasure to be able to sit and chat and catch up. We're normally not sitting and chatting. Normally we're at a site and we're trying to develop a new business model. And watching animals. And watching animals, which is so wonderful. You know, you have a career journey that would be so inspiring for our listeners to hear

because how you've built your career is, for some people, would look at what you're doing now and say what a dream come true it's a life with meaning and purpose tell us how did you get to do what you're doing well a little bit by accident I I can't say that I love dolphins from birth I have a lot of lot of students who work with me who have yes but I I have always loved the oceans always loved loved animals, always loved science.

I was a science geek, I could tell you all my science teachers. I love that. They named everything. And then did a whale watch internship when I was in college and realized, hey, I could study these animals and make a career out of this. And then started reading as much as I could, went to graduate school. I was able to spend more time during my degree in the Bahamas than in Texas. So, you know, no offense to Texans,

but, you know, being on a boat in the Bahamas is not too bad. Yes. So, was fortunate enough to work with two colleagues to develop a device to actually record dolphin behavior and sounds at the same time to be able to Look at communication. So the study of communication was set back a little bit in the 70s and 80s But we now had a device in that we could record dolphin behavior and sounds if you've ever been swimming You can't really tell where a sound is coming from. That's exactly right So this this device was something that you created.

I did with my advisor and with my dad with, you know, suggestions and advice there, put it together. And dolphins are swimming ventriloquists. They don't open their mouths to make a sound. So, you know, that's two strikes against us. But using my mobile video acoustic system, which I lovingly call my array, I can record dolphin behavior and sounds and get an idea of what's going on between them. And quite the pioneer.

Well, yeah, I guess I like getting wet. I like being in the water. We had human habituated groups of dolphins that we started with, so we can record animals when they're interacting with one another. Those are wild animals. And then also throughout my career, we started studying animals and managed care using the same methods to collect the data

in both settings and to analyze the data the same way in both settings and really finding no differences, which was very exciting. I wanted to ask you about that. So when you were looking, first of all, congratulations on creating this incredible device. I mean, it is a great shout out to all science teachers out there, by the way, that she can recite the name of all of them, and I'm sure your science teachers are so proud to

know that you were their student and look at you, and then you get into a space, and as a student, you develop what is a very pioneering device to actually be able to develop an entire research base that's never existed before. Right. Which is exciting. Oh, no, it's beyond exciting. And then you take that research and you attack the misinformation that's already out there

to say that animals in human care don't have the same sort of behaviors, interactions that animals do in the wild. And you have research that might challenge some of that that animals do in the wild. And you have research that might challenge some of that. I do. I do. We have, well, I'm probably unique because I want dolphins to ignore me, which they don't. They like to be social. They like to be interactive. But for the most part, I can watch what they're doing underwater with each other and and actually watch it and see how they're interacting with one another and I could play video for you right now

And you wouldn't know if the animals were wild or in managed care in human care because they this they interact the same way They'll share pectoral fin or or similar to our arms pectoral fin contacts body contacts The way they swim together is the same, how they play, how they socialize, it's very similar. It doesn't matter where they are. It's looking at the animal to animal or dolphin to dolphin interaction. So the way we would share handshakes is very similar to how they would share a peck fin rub when they're coming together.

And it doesn't matter if they were born in the wild or born in human care? No. They still do the same nature originating behavior. Some of the groups that we study, the animals are into their second or third generation of animals born in managed care and you're seeing interactions and exchanges that are very similar to what we're seeing with the dolphins in the wild. The most exciting thing that we've been looking at, there's two things that take this research to the next level, is we've looked at relationship quality and how dolphins interact with one another, and we used a method, one of my colleagues

helped develop this method, to take a method that was used with chimpanzees and ravens and applied it with dolphins. So what we found from that research is that dolphins, chimps and ravens, aquatic, terrestrial, avian, social animals are very similar in how they share behavior and how they set up their social structures, which is exciting. Well, that's very exciting, my goodness. And this research is all out there in publications

and people were able to take this and to build on it. But your research seems contrary to so much of the information that we hear. It does. So why is that? I think probably, well, maybe I jump back to my research has been co-sponsored by ecotourism. So people love dolphins. Yes. You see that smile, so you think think, oh they're always happy.

Well that smile is permanent because of how they hear. So they can be interacting, they can be aggressive with one another, but they still have that smile. But I think we anthropomorphize the smile and think that that's something better than us. So we look at dolphins as maybe we put them on a pedestal. And so we need to treat them differently than we would treat maybe ourselves or our fellow man. But when we have people come and join us for the data that we're collecting, they learn the truth about these animals

and how they interact, and that they're similar to other social animals. And so one by one, we share that information with other people, and then they can similar to other social animals. And so one by one, we share that information with other people, and then they can share that with their friends and their colleagues, folks who have nothing to do with science or with animals. And then they're learning.

It's the same as what American Humane does with their programs and showing that welfare is a good thing. Yes, absolutely. You know, your work, when you just said people think dolphins are automatically happy because of the way they look with their smile, we do tend to make animals like humans. We tend to treat them like our children and all of that's really a relatively new dynamic, 25, 30 years maybe, maybe 50 in some communities and cultures. But that is, it can actually have harmful outcomes for the animals and produce bad public policy, am I right?

I think so. I think there's a place for anthropomorphism. I think there's a place to treat animals the way we would ourselves. But that's setting the stage, that's starting. That gives us our questions. But then we really have to look at the animals for who they are in their world and get an idea of what that means to them.

And doing that, focusing as we've done, focusing on the animals in their world and how they interact is something that lets us place them in context and we understand whether they're in need of something better, whether they're in need of something better, whether they're in receipt of good welfare. And as we both know, for animals you can always do better. You can always make something a little bit better, even if it's exceptional. I think that's beautiful. Let me ask you, you're very busy.

You're traveling the world for your research. You're implementing new programs. You're sharing that information. What does a day in the life look like for you? A day in my life really depends on whether I'm in my office analyzing data or I'm in the field teaching a field course, leading an eco tour, collecting data. So if I'm in the field, I'm in the water an hour or two a day, usually before anyone's awake, but the sun is up. So collecting the data, teaching students

that they can actually do this work. They can be scientists. Any of the students who come with us, they help collect the data. They do observations with us. But then taking that back, about 10% of my, I guess, year would be in the field collecting the data. The rest is analyzing the data and watching the videos and seeing where those patterns

of behavior become evident. Because it takes repeated observations of the video to see what's going on. We've known that dolphins swim in pair swims. So you have the, especially the mom and the calf. So the mom is here and the calf will be up by the side, by the fin on the back, the dorsal fin, that's echelon. Or it'll be down underneath the sort of past the belly, like underneath between the,

halfway between the belly and the tail. I've certainly seen that, yes. Infant position. And both of those positions are energetically good for the calf and it's camouflage for the calf. But what we're studying is those positions are used by juveniles and subadults or teenagers and adults for other reasons, but they haven't been studied before. Oh. And it may have to do with who's, you know, got a leg up, who's maybe a little submissive, or maybe for courting,

for a female letting a male know that she's ready. One of the other exciting things that we've seen is that that may also be a position used among males when you have mentoring. So when you have an older male that might be mentoring a younger individual. Oh my. And this has only come about because we have these hours and hours and hours of data and video that we can observe. That is absolutely stunning. It's an incredibly impressive collection of work that you've done on

one of the most charismatic creatures, the dolphin, right? Yes. Have you had a favorite dolphin in your life? I'm sure you've had. I've had a couple that would pop into my name, you know, pop into my brain as I remember them. Yes. The dolphins that I've seen in Japan around Mikura Island. There's a couple there that Mai Kake, she was her ID was number 33 and she was sort of the regal mom of the group. Yes. Showing that females, one of the things we've learned, my colleagues and I, is that there's maternal style. females, one of the things we've learned, my colleagues and I, is that there's maternal style. So moms may treat their calves all the same, but they're different to other moms, which is pretty neat. Interesting. And I've had, you know,

in the Bahamas there was top-notch, she was number three, who was one of my favorite dolphins. Yes. There's several individuals in the current group that I'm studying, I don't want to play favorites. I don't know that they would know it. But you have it. Yes. It's probably hard not to on occasion, right? Oh my gosh, it's amazing, absolutely amazing. When you look at the space, we'll go back a little bit and talk about the larger issues

in protecting dolphins and in making the habitats, their ecosystems safer for them because the dolphins are under threat. And we've seen various types of dolphins, some subspecies actually be on the critically endangered list. Let's talk about those ecosystems. What makes for a good ecosystem for a dolphin? Well, a good ecosystem for a dolphin actually The, well, a good ecosystem for a dolphin

actually depends on whether you have a coastal population, whether you have an offshore or a pelagic population. The biggest threats to dolphins and to their ecosystems is us, is humans, is pollution, is runoff and pesticides, and various overfishing or ghost nuts or just entanglement. That's a threat to all animals in the oceans, not just dolphins, although dolphins are a key species. They're a charismatic megafauna, so they are the ones that get the attention.

So you can draw it out and say, look, we need to protect the oceans. If not for all of the animals that call the oceans home, then for those of us that visit the ocean as well. That's right. And those are issues that we're hearing. You know, in your work, I know you've come across people who have really fought for the vaquita. And can you share any of the story of the vaquita with our listeners in Robin's Nest?

Because that's one of the heartbreaking stories. The, well the vaquita is the Gulf of California harbor porpoise and it is critically endangered. There's probably about a dozen animals left from a few hundred in the early 90s and they are impacted, they're by-caught in an illegal fishery for an endangered fish. Oh, oh my. And they only exist in the Gulf of California. And there's the illegal fishery, which is used for trade to Asia for medicinal and aphrodisiac purposes. And so there was an attempt, Vaquita CPR,

to try to bring them into our care, to try to work at caring for them, and seeing if we could learn more about them, and maybe do a reintroduction program. Unfortunately, the Vaquita is very skittish and so that it was not successful. And so efforts have ramped up to protect them, to get rid of the nets as much as possible. There is a bit of a sanctuary that's created in their core home range in the Gulf of California to try to protect them. And we hope, but it may be, hopefully it will be one of the lessons that we will learn from.

Right. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but there are some species that when you get down to just that critical few numbers, you may not, they may not survive. Yes. For 12, I can't imagine the genetic pool will be hardy enough for a species to survive 100 years. It's terrible. It may be. The Baiji went extinct. It was confirmed in 2000 to have gone extinct. It was the Chinese River Dolphin.

Right. Out of Hong Kong, right? Hong Kong area. And it was, yes, and it hadn't been seen for decades. So we're still seeing the Vaquita. So there's still a bit of hope. And the elephant seal, the northern elephant seal came back from a bottleneck. And it's now at numbers pre-hunting, pre-extinction levels. I think we need a miracle for the Vaquita, but I would still hold out. We hold out for miracles every day when we work with animals, am I right? Yes, we do. Absolutely.

And they can surprise us. Yes, they can. Yes, they can. I think it was the otter population came back after decades and decades. So we can always have hope. Well let's pivot to something positive. You've been a crucial member, a colleague with American Humane, in developing certification programs around the world that actually define what it is to be humane. Tell us a little bit about your experiences in this because this is very exciting.

It's new, it's novel. It's defining what it is to be humane through science and evidence-based practices and importantly observation. Well, I'm excited about the American Humane Welfares because they are their welfare programs, especially the conservation program and the tourism program because they're animal-centric. Yes. And they are third party, which means a facility can't choose who comes in to do the assessment Yes, they are assigned a team and that team actually goes in and does a full assessment of the animals So we spend more time watching the animals to make sure they're in receipt of good welfare

Then speaking to a lot of the different people Unless they work with the animals day in and day out Yeah, and and to to focus on the animals, you may have a primate species where you have hierarchies, and you have animals that are alphas, and you have animals that are lower on that totem pole. So what is the facility, what are those staff members doing to make sure that those low individuals

still get good welfare, and it doesn't impact the group dynamics. Oh, that's very important. I didn't think about that, but that's critically important. And so I've been excited to be on many of these assessments from the beginning and to see the stellar work that everyone is doing, to see anything from small birds all the way up to rhinos and lions and everything in between. I can tell you I

would never if you had asked me ten years ago if I would get excited over watching a boa constrictor move or do all its business. Yes. Because you don't usually see that with snakes. Yes. I would not have believed you but to be a part of that and to see all of that and and of course with the facilities they have marine mammals to go and see. Of course, of course to see the dolphins and those are always great fun, great great fun. That's wonderful. You know we've talked a lot about your specialty area, your dolphin research, your pioneering start with this incredible equipment that you created, device that

you created, but I know there's other animals that really touch your heart in your home. Yes. So tell us about your home animals. We all love our animals in our home. Well we have two beagles, Baloo and Hazel. Yes. And Baloo is actually, she's named for Jungle Book Baloo. Oh I didn't know that. Because she's a tri-blue as a as a beagle, so where she would be black, she's gray. Oh my goodness. And she kind of looks like a bear. She bumpers a little bit like a bear. And our newest addition, Baloo is now eight years old, and our newest addition will be

two in January, and her name is Hazel. Hazel, oh. Hazel is right now a chew monster and everything. Any toy that comes into the house immediately is rendered squeaker-less. So we pull the squeakers out. Yes. But also anything that has stuffing is immediately unstuffed. Yes. And so we have a lot of flat pieces of material that used to be toys. Oh my goodness. I love that. So Hazel's new, a new chewer, chew monster. She I, oh my goodness. I love that. So Hazel's new, a new new chewer, Chew Monster. She is a new chewer, new Chew Monster. I love that. I'm not allowed to study them. My husband said to the

grandma, she said they're play buddies, you can have fun with them, but you can't study them. Oh, I love that he's put some boundaries around your relationships with your pups. That is so much fun. He's like, any animal in the yard, any of the pups you cannot study, they have to be just for fun. That's okay. And that's really nice because we all need those animals for that fun, those extra cuddles, right? That's wonderful. What's next for you Kathleen and all of your great work and adventures? Well, I'm continuing the research that I'm doing. One of the most recent studies that I'll be writing up soon is looking at the impact of offspring or calves on a group. And calves, we actually have come up with a way

to quantify that calves are enriching to the whole group. So we're writing that up. Yep, groups are more tightly spread, or more tightly grouped, I'm sorry, when they have younger calves. and as the calves age, the distance between members gets a little wider, and they play more, they socialize more between individuals when you have more calves,

which is really exciting. So it's important because I think that reproduction is important, it's one of the necessities of life for most social animals, and you have that in there. It's a sign of welfare. It is, it is. And I have that in there. It's a sign of welfare. It is, it is. And I continue my eco tours,

and I continue my field courses, and teaching young minds and students, and have a couple of new students working on their master's degrees with us as well. That's outstanding. So good, well you're such a role model, and such a pioneer, which I think is so extraordinary. So congratulations on all you've done

in your achievements and your accomplishments. But most importantly, thank you for the work you do with American Humane in Partnership to help us define what it is to be humane so that we can always be on the cutting edge of science and certainly evidence-based practices. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me as part of your team. Oh, absolutely. I told you this would be a great session of Robin's Nest. So thrilled that Dr. Kathleen Dzezinski has been with us this afternoon. Thank you for tuning in to Robin's Nest. We want to hear what you think. Please make sure to review the podcast on your podcast platform. Watch for upcoming episodes that will include new and exciting discussions. If you love animals, you'll love this season of Robin's Nest.