#RolandMartinUnfiltered - 1.16 Impeachment trial to begin; Kim Gardner talks suit against St. Louis; Warrant issued for Odell

Episode Date: January 19, 2020

1.17.20 #RolandMartinUnfiltered: TSU board responds, names acting president amid admission investigation; Rep. Ayanna Pressley announces she suffers from Alopecia; GA election server shows evidence that it was hacked before the 2016 presidential election and the 2018 vote; Bernie Sanders talks racsim; Poll: 8 in 10 African Americans believe that Trump is racist; Nashville woman has filed a $5M suit against a former NY cop; Courthouse in Baltimore has been renamed for the late Rep. Elijah Cummings + This weekend, women from across the nation will join the Women's March Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Today is Thursday, January 16th, 2020. This is Roland Martin Unfiltered, broadcasting live from St. Louis, Missouri. On today's show, we will talk with Circle Attorney Kim Gardner. She, of course, has. On today's show, we will talk with Circle Attorney Kim Gardner. She, of course, has been giving folks hell here, and she's also fighting back, filing a federal lawsuit saying there are forces in this city impeding her progress to do her job. We'll talk with her live right here on Roland Martin Unfiltered. Also today in Washington,

D.C., lots of drama there as the impeachment proceedings, actually the trial of Donald Trump, begins today as the House lays out their case. Why are Republicans so scared to hear additional evidence after we see what has been uncovered? Well, because they want to protect Donald Trump. In our series 1619 to 2019, Still Seeking Freedom, 19 and 2019 still seeking freedom we'll talk about all black towns in the state of oklahoma also on today's show uh republican witness during the congressional hearing says black folks don't know much about the ability to own homes what the hell is she talking about also on the show we'll tell you about the newest inductees in the rock and roll hall of fame it is time to bring the funk and roll the mark on the field trip. Let's go. He's got it.

Whatever the miss, he's on it. Whatever it is, he's got the scoop, the fact, the fine. And when it breaks, he's right on time. And it's rolling. Best belief he's knowing. Putting it down from sports to news to politics. With entertainment just for kicks He's rolling

It's a go-go-go, y'all It's rolling, Martin Rolling with rolling now He's broke, he's fresh, he's real The best you know, he's fresh, he's real, the best you know He's Rollin' Martez Martez All right, folks, a number of times on Rollerback Unfiltered, we've told you about what has been happening here in St. Louis.

You had two African-Americans who are the chief law enforcement officers here. Of course, you have Wesley Bell, who is district attorney. You also have Kim Gardner. White folks here have not been happy as a result. We've told you about those assistant DAs who decided to join a police union to all of a sudden unionize when the brother comes in as DA. Then, of course kim guard has been fighting folks over the lamar johnson case trying to get this look she's established he did not commit this crime attorney general of the state others stopped me from doing her job well

earlier this week we told you about the federal lawsuit that she filed against a number of entities uh using a law that goes back to 1871 well of, of course, I was here in St. Louis for the MLK program sponsored by the St. Louis Urban League and St. Louis University as well as the company's C-Team Corporation. So being here, why not talk to Kim Gardner? She joins me right now on Rolling Martin Unfiltered. How you doing? How you doing? Thank you for having me.

Glad to have you here. So when were you first elected? 2016. Okay, so it's been four years. It is as if you have been under this continuous assault, fighting with folks, having to go to court just to do the job you were elected by the people to do. Well, I mean, when you're a reform-minded prosecutor, as we are the rare, I was the first African-American female ever to be elected in the circuit attorney's office. I was the first African-American in the St. Louis region. So when you are the first, you have challenges. But this is why this lawsuit is so important, because day one, there has been a powerful few who have decided to silence the will of the people.

And that's what this lawsuit is about. And even before you filed this lawsuit, I mean, you know, this back and forth questioning whether you had jurisdiction to do the job that the previous attorney was able to do unimpeded. I mean, it's funny that, you know, when you hear other reformed African-American female prosecutors talk about somehow our discretion is always criticized. It's always kind of how do we have to ask for permission to do our job? And it's kind of important to note, why is it that when this office existed since 1871, a prosecutor's discretion has been so important to the local jurisdiction. No one has tried to impede or usurp that discretion. But now,

all of a sudden, when you have reform-minded prosecutors, are we so comfortable to try to chip away and take their discretion? And it's not just, frankly, people in this city who are doing that. You've had Attorney General William Barr, who has gone after reform-minded prosecutors. Donald Trump has done so as well. Them essentially saying that y'all are the problem. You're going to cause an increase in crime across the country. So you now have, again, the Attorney General of the United States

and the President questioning whether or not you should be able to do your job. What's as much as devastating as that is for them to even say and signal to reform out of cities who have reformed out of prosecutors that somehow, like you said, that we are creating the violence in our communities. They're saying that if the communities that elect us do not back down with the reform efforts, that somehow we should be afraid of having police protection. And that's why this lawsuit is so important, because this is talking about silencing the will of the people who want reform in the city of St. Louis and around this country.

And there are different tactics that are used to stop that. So when you decided to file this federal lawsuit, there are entities that you laid out who are blocking. Why did you cast such a large net? Because I think in St. Louis particularly, we are the ground zero for the reform efforts and the reform conversations post-Ferguson. And it's also disturbing that we actually have the first African-American circuit attorney, as well as now prosecuting attorney, Wesley Bell in the county. But it's also important to note that this ground zero of reform conversation is not happening in our region where we started the conversation. And we have a small few of individuals who have gotten together to collectively stop reform

efforts. And this suit is not just about Kim Gardner. This is about any reform out of prosecutor who happens to be elected, who says that you have a group of individuals who want to stop that reform. And this can be used not only in St. Louis, but around this country. The mayor's spokesman has said that your lawsuit is meritless. The city says they'll be vindicated. You've laid out a variety of people, the St. Louis Police Officers Association and a number of others. For folks who don't understand, I mean, you know, what are some of the things that they have been doing to thwart you from doing your job? Well, first of all, I want to speak to that.

The mayor's spokesperson said it was frivolous, which is different, and that's why we have an adversary proceeding who would make that determination of whether this lawsuit is frivolous, but we have Actually the ethical society of police yesterday came out and stated that there is Racial instances on the police department that need to be weeded out There are sentiments of Jeff Rota who is the SLP OA unions business representative who has stated time and time again I should be physically removed and basically said to the other African-American female prosecutors that we need to go back to our respective jurisdictions.

So this type of racial divisiveness that has been allowed from day one to continue, it builds the growing mistrust with the whole criminal justice system. And what is at stake is people in the community in which I represent, they feel like the system is rigged. And so we have to, as prosecutors, as the people, enough is enough. And that's why this lawsuit is so important. We have instances where we have a Luther Hall, an officer who was undercover during the Stockley protests, who was beaten, beaten. And it characterized in his lawsuit, I can't speak to that because I haven't seen it fully, that he was beaten like Rodney King. And he's an African American police officer. He was undercover so they didn't know who he was.

So we have some issues. I'm not saying that every hardworking men and women in the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department is racist, but there are some issues where there are individuals that have done some racist things like the Plain View Project. We also are in the news for that, where we had 20 something officers who had put out on Facebook certain racial, homophobic type of Facebook messages, that is a problem. And I ask the people of the city of St. Louis want us to, one, hold officers and anyone accountable who breaks the law. And this suit is about equal protection for everyone under the laws of not just this state, but this country. A group of black female prosecutors certainly came together, held a news conference, wrote an op-ed in support of you.

And folks, check this out. So Marilyn Mosby's office, she's the Baltimore State's attorney, they released this audio recording after they held a news conference earlier this week of one of the most vile things you heard targeting her because she dared to stand up in support of Kim Gardner. We're going to play this for you. So listen to this, folks, and just be aware of the language you're about to hear. How dare you come to St. Louis and say you've got the back of that lousy bitch, State's Attorney Kim Gardner.

She is just like you. That's why birds of a feather, bitches. That's what you are. You hate cops, you hate white people. You do everything you can to give all the blacks who are criminals every benefit of the doubt that everybody else is suspect. Black lives only matter when a white person takes it.

Even blacks can kill each other all you want. In fact, I think that's the grand solution. We need to start driving around the ghettos and just dropping boxes of bullets on every street corner. Let them take each other out. Things were much better in this world, in this country, when everybody stayed in their own goddamn neighborhoods by dusk. There's only one thing worse than a fat-ass empowered black woman. That's a fat-ass empowered black woman who's got public reins in her hands. If we'd known you all were going to be this much trouble, we would have picked our own fucking cotton.

Marilyn Mosley released this statement. She said, the voicemail I received after my trip to Missouri to support Circuit Attorney Kim Gartner was outrageous, but not surprising. Kim knows that people in positions of power also think like this. These are the types of attacks we encounter every day as women of color in a position of authority. And I traveled to St. Louis because this is the unfortunate experience of black female prosecutors everywhere. It's deeply disturbing that in 2020, we still have to experience such blatant racism. But this hateful rhetoric only strengthens my resolve to continue fighting for justice and working to undo the blight of mass incarceration and its impact on communities of color. Have you had to endure these type of

voicemails and calls since you've been in office? Yes, it's unfortunate that for African-American female prosecutors that this is a normal occurrence for us. I've been called everything under the sun. I've been called racial epithets that I've never even heard of. I was stopped on Christmas Eve because I had no lights on. I was held for over 15 minutes. And it's what we are facing is even different from our other colleagues in the reform movement who are similar race and they're different gender. So that is an issue that we as African-American female prosecutors, unfortunately, we have these day-and-day occurrences. People feel entitled to talk about us in ways that is not only just sexist. It shows that we need

to do better in our communities, and we have to understand that when you have a Jeff Reuter in my jurisdiction, for example, who gets on a radio station and says, I should be removed by force. And this is someone that people listen to and put on in the media to act like he is a some kind of authority on a lawful police officer. He is a fired police officer for making a false police report. So he is not credible at all. But that is somehow someone that they turn to some people, not all people in the police department, but he is the business manager. I asked why. Why is he there? He's so racially divisive. He says all kinds of things unchecked without any repercussions. But what is at stake is I know individuals who say we can't get a fair shake in the criminal justice

system. It makes it difficult for prosecutors to hold anyone accountable that preys on their community when they don't trust the whole system. It's not just police, it's the whole system. And his words cause more harm for police officers who put their life on the line every day to do the job, to protect and serve. And there's a lot of good police officers, but we cannot allow the powerful few to do these things. We cannot stop the reform efforts that the powerful few to do these things. We cannot stop the reform efforts that the people of the city of St. Louis and now St. Louis County have said we

want. And that's why this suit is so important because it is in Missouri, one in three African American men will have some kind of brush with the criminal justice system. We have in this state alone, 91% of the people stopped in search in this state are African-American or people of color. We also have a police statistics that came out in 2016 by the Ethical Society of Police saying over 80% of the arrests in our jurisdiction alone are African-Americans or people of color. So tell me, we have to do better. We must do better. It's about justice. Last question. Do you believe that they're trying

to force you to resign? And obviously, you're not going to give them that satisfaction. What they're trying to do is intimidate. They're trying to make an example because this is what they're doing. And that's why this suit is so important. This is saying if you try to reform the system and you go against the status quo, we will make an example. We will make you an example of a night ride. And we know what that is. How dare you try to implement the reforms that the people put you in place? So it's not about a Kim Gardner, whether I'm here or not, and hopefully I am here. But I want to make sure that a Kim Gardner can come I'm here or not, and hopefully I am here. But I want to make sure

that a Kim Gardner can come behind and continue this work, because this is not about just Kim Gardner. This is a civil rights movement. This is the right thing to do to address the broken system that we all know we need to fix. Mass incarceration has not made us safe. We need to look at how we are smart on crime, not just tough on crime. And we do not have a good track record of locking everybody up. Kim Gardner. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thanks so much.

We'll keep covering this. All right. Thanks a lot. I appreciate you. I want to go to my panel there in D.C. Julianne Malveaux, of course, President Emeritus of Bennett College, also an economist, Dr. Greg Carr, Chair, Department of Afro-American Studies at Howard University in Kelly, but they're a communications strategist.

Julianne, I'll start with you. We have seen the attacks on Ms. Ayala in Florida, Marilyn Mosby in Baltimore, Kim Fox in Chicago, Kim Gartner here. You've put in Larry Krasner in Philadelphia. As I said, Attorney General Barr, even Donald Trump, they have put a bullseye on progressive prosecutors. This is what we can expect if Donald Trump gets four more years. You know, the issue, Roland, is that we have seen the unequivocal differences in the way that

basically the way that law enforcement is imposed. So when the sister you're talking to, when any of us are dealing, what we're seeing is the differences, the serious differences. And so while on one hand you say let's have law and order, on the other hand you have a differential law and order. On the other hand, you have a differential law and order. And as she said, when we have people of color, women of color, black folks of color coming in as basically attorney generals, as prosecutors, they don't have the leverage often that others do. So I am really grateful for this opportunity to lift this sister up. But even more than that, I think it's really important for us to look at what has happened in our community to the way that people, especially young people,

especially young people. We have people who are 16 and 17 years old who are in jail for life. Excuse my language, for bullshit. And that's because that's what folks can do. So forgive me for going on a little longer, but I just really do, this is frightening.

It is frightening and it's also affirming that this sister and so many others are dealing with this. Gotcha. Kelly, again, what you mean, these are black women, largely black women in many of these places who they are targeting. And as Kim Gardner said, pursuing the fight to not only maintain her place as attorney general, but she's really paving the way for future women attorneys vying for that spot in the future, because this is absolutely ridiculous that you have an entire sect of the criminal justice system happening to be the most outward-facing sect of said system, having the most xenophobic bias.

That is not only troubling. It should absolutely be eliminated. You can trace back this kind of bias to, honestly, the origin of the police department in St. Louis, one of them being the fact that they were, you know, there to hunt the enslaved and, you know, perpetuate racial biases and uphold Jim Crow laws. So this isn't necessarily surprising to me in terms of the history of the racism with this department, but it is troubling to me that it is now 2020 and it's still being perpetuated generation after generation after generation. I commend Kim Gardner for fighting the good fight

down in her jurisdiction, but I also commend Marilyn Mosby for standing by her sister-in-law and making sure that she is supported not only in that jurisdiction, but honestly nationwide. We all have to surround this. This is one second, one second. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Greg Carr again. You know, Kim Gardner has been here since 2016. First of all, they even challenged pointed special prosecutors to investigate her when she investigated Governor Eric Greitens, who was forced to resign when it came to some pictures he took of a woman he was having an affair with. And to see people challenging the authority of an elected DA, that's what she is, a circuit

attorney. She's the DA of the city of St. Louis. Wesley Bell is a county. What they are saying is, guess what? Oh, you're black? No, no, no. You're not going to get to be able to enjoy the power of the office like others did. Well, that's exactly right, Roland. And I want to add my commendation to what Dr. Malveaux and what Sister Bethea said. Really, really a whole lot of respect for Kim Gardner. Shout out to her alma mater, Harris Stowe, founded in 1857. 1857, the same year that the university

that she graduated from was started, Roger Taney said in the Dred Scott decision from the Supreme Court that Dred and Harriet Scott and their two little girls in St. Louis had no rights that white people are bound to respect. And from 1857 to today, that remains the case in white supremacist America. The glorious thing about our sister, the circuit attorney for the city of St. Louis, is that she is fighting with both fists balled up. What a brilliant lawsuit

to use one of the underused statutes in the playbook, the Third Reconstruction Act of 1871, also known as the Ku klux klan act when that that was enacted uh... ulysses grant was president states and they basically used that act and the department that was started the year before that with the second at eighteen seventy which was the department of justice to put the ku klux klan out of business in states like south carolina they

crippled the clans so bad that the Klan did not reemerge until 1915. Now, what's the lesson we should learn from this? The Ku Klux Klan Act was enacted in part, the one that she is using now in this lawsuit with the 14th Amendment and other pieces, was enacted because they were going around the country trying to stop black people from voting through violence. Once we get the ballot, we can now advance to the next issue. This is where I'm going to close. Once you voted, once you put these powerful black women in place, now we get down to the real issue. The real issue isn't voting, although voting gets us to the real issue. The real issues is that some of these clans,

people like that woman who called up, much respect to her because you've dropped all pretenses now. This was never about democracy. This was about power. And sister, we back you. We're in front of you. We're on both sides. And let's just get it down, drop all our gloves, and fight because this thing ain't never going to have any shared understanding

of democracy. Thank you, Sister Gordy. And that is the thing that I need people to one second, one second, one second, hold on. And that is the thing that I need people to understand. One second, one second, one second, hold on. And that's the thing I need people to understand, that when I stayed on this show, I said this when Obama was elected, that the election is the end of one process and it's the beginning of another. What this requires is for us is to be able to say after we have elected people that we also still stand with you and still support you and will come to your defense. I dare say there should be protests in St. Louis from black folks standing with Kim Gardner, similar to what you see in Hong Kong, because we have to send the message that what you're not

going to do is ignore African-Americans who are elected and not allow them to do their job. And what we have to understand is that as we are seeing the demographics of this country shift and change, we're going to see more of this because Frederick Douglass said, power concedes nothing without a demand, never have and never will. And so we must understand exactly what's going on. Speaking of that, folks, when you talk about what's happening here and also how do you focus on what is the rule of law? Of course, today, the impeachment proceedings, actually, Donald Trump was impeached in the House, but the articles of impeachment were taken over

to the United States Senate. Actually, it was a black woman who walked them over and presented them last night to, a.k.a. Stavros Niarchos, The of course that sister that is her name is ch name is Cheryl Johnson, and she presented the Articles of Impeachment, 1,416-word document, to the United States House. It was today when it all began. Chief Justice John Roberts was sworn in. The United States Senate was sworn in. And it's left up to Adam Schiff, Congressman Adam Schiff, to kick things off, laying out exactly why the House impeached Donald Trump. With the permission of the Senate, I will now read the articles of impeachment,

House Resolution 755. House Resolution 755, impeaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States for high crimes and misdemeanors. Resolved that President – that Donald J. Trump, President of the United States, is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors, and that the following articles of impeachment be exhibited to the United States Senate. Articles of impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives of the United States of America in the name of itself and of the people of the United States of America against Donald John Trump, President of the United States of America, in maintenance and support of

its impeachment against him for high crimes and misdemeanors. Article 1. Ab abuse of power. The Constitution provides that the House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment and that the President shall be removed from office on impeachment for and conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. Article 2, Obstruction of Congress. The Constitution provides that the House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment and that the President shall be removed from office on impeachment for

and conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. The managers request that the Senate take order for the trial. The managers now request leave to withdraw. Now, of course, Greg Carr, they were sworn in and they were supposed to be impartial. You've already heard Mitch McConnell say he's not going to be impartial. Donald Trump is mad, upset, tweeting in all caps. Oh, my God, I got impeached for a simple phone call. We now have, of course, the evidence presented by the goons who worked with Rudy Giuliani.

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You have the goons who worked with Rudy Giuliani now presenting their information. And, Greg, to have United States senators say, well, no, we don't need any new evidence the house actually has enough I mean these people refuse to hold this man accountable and it shows exactly their lack of character their lack of morality their lack of values their lack of judgment their lack of leadership what the rolling it has stripped down to the basic question. This is really American democracy is on trial. I mean, when Nancy Pelosi put that team together,

let's set aside Schiff and Jerry Nadler for a second. Let's look at the other five. Jason Crow out of Colorado. This is one of those intelligence Democrats. So you've now shown that the intelligence community clearly says what you've done. You've got Val Demings, of course, who is the police. Let's be very clear about that. This is because you got the seriousness. Then you got Sylvia Garcia out of Texas, who, again, you got the Latino in the

coalition. She also is a graduate of Texas Southern Law School. And of course, Akeem Jeffries and then Zoe Loughran, who goes all the way back to the Nixon piece. So she's got her team. Basically, what she's saying is any rational human being in this country, this is an open and shut case. So what are y'all doing? As you said, when John Roberts walked over there this afternoon, who looked like he lost his last friend before he put the robe on to swear him in, the minute he got up, took that oath from Chuck Grassley, the oldest piece of architecture left over there, this white supremacist out of Iowa, he turned around and swore those senators in. Two senators committed perjury as they said we will. And that was Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell. They have already violated the lie oath they took. What's left?

The only thing left is the trial of American democracy. And as this thing unfolds, as Adam Schiff lays this case out, as he began to do today, what we're going to see is that everybody in this country is going to find out that the law don't mean a damn thing if you don't have the power to back it up with enforcement. You know, the worst of it... I'm sorry, Kelly, go ahead. Yes?

Kelly, then Julianne. Kelly? No, I agree with Dr. Carr here. It's just one of those... The poppin in circumstance helps in terms of just making it as formal and traditional as possible. But like Dr. Carr was saying, McConnell and Lindsey Graham, they already said that they weren't going to do this. So what is the point? You know, everything else that's happening right now, again, it's just pop in circumstance at this point. I feel like we already know what's going to happen when it comes to this trial.

And I would be very, very shocked if the Republicans actually, you know, do their jobs and listen and actually consider the evidence and, you know, like I said, do their jobs and actually convict Trump of these high crimes and misdemeanors. One person that I was listening to earlier today on CNN, Joe Walsh, he's running for president against Trump on the Republican side. And he's one of the very few Republicans out there who's saying, look, this isn't about party. This is about country. And

you're absolutely right, Dr. Carr. This is a fight for our democracy and the preservation of it. And if we do not actually act in that kind of manner, I fear for what's going to happen on the other side of this, not only beyond, not only during this election for 2020, but beyond. Roland, I have two points to make. The first point I want to make is a point about what Kelly and Greg have said about the ways that we have essentially allowed... My sister has a word called catawampus. It's like stuff does not align perfectly. My sister, Mariette Malvo, and she always says, this is called catawampus. It's like stuff does not align perfectly.

My sister, Mariette Malvo, and she always says this is not catawampus. So none of this aligns perfectly. And I just want to lift that up. And what we're seeing is the lack of alignment. Kelly has spoken to it in terms of how we're dealing with it. Greg has spoken to it. Dr. Carr has spoken to it. But basically we have something that unaligned. But the other thing that's

more important as far as I'm concerned is the extent to which we've allowed a narrative to come in and to basically realign what's going on. So it's a new narrative. So we're allowing that. Now, having said both of those things, which I think do segue, what I think is so important at this moment and where we are is that we need to create a new narrative.

And in creating a new narrative, we need to talk about who, what, when, where, and why. And we have not seen us create that narrative. And so we've allowed other people to create the narrative. If we want to reinvent the narrative, we must talk about people like Barbara Lee, who essentially did not go for the okey-doke. We must talk about people like Maxine Waters, who continue to lift it up. We must talk about folks like Jim Clyburn, who, with his measured way way has said, this ain't happening. And so what we have here right here right now is a, what can I say? It's an important diversion from a narrative that is unacceptable.

And so I think when you look at this year, folks, a second, I got to jump in here. I got to jump in here. This just came down just a couple hours ago. Headline in Miami Herald State Supreme Court agrees with the Florida legislature. Felons must pay all costs to regain vote. Remember, we talked about Amendment 4. And this is just some breaking news here. So the so the Florida Supreme Court, they have sided with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Republican lawmakers. Amendment 4. And this is just some breaking news here. So the Florida Supreme Court, they have sided with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Republican lawmakers. They argued that in order to get the right to vote back, all court-ordered fees, fines, and restitution before registering to vote must be paid back. This is a setback to those, of course, who voted for

Amendment 4. This is the ACLU. They had filed this lawsuit against the legislature. And this is what the court said. We conclude that the phrase, when read and understood in context, plainly refers to obligations and includes all, not some, LFOs, legal financial obligations imposed in conjunction with an adjudication of guilt. And so again, some many believe this is going to undercut a lot of Amendment 4, which passed by two-thirds of the voters. But also keep in mind that in terms of the number of people that this impacted, it actually is a very small number in terms of the folks who have significant fines paid back. But it also goes to show you, Kelly, this is what happens when Republicans, they are scared to death, scared to death of change. And they were scared to death

of Amendment 4. And what would happen if up to 1.4 million people got the right to vote back. This is absolutely heartbreaking. I, for the life of me, do not understand how that decision from the Florida Supreme Court is not a version of voter suppression. If the whole point is to rehabilitate prisoners, when they come out, they should have their citizenship back.

It shouldn't have been taken away from them in the first place. But, you know, for all intents and purposes, they should have the right to vote back. They should have every right bestowed upon an American citizen back. And that includes the right to vote. You should not have to pay to vote. If it were somebody, you know, not in jail and you just said, hey, you got to pay all your legal fees, like you—it doesn't make any sense to me. Can you imagine if you had somebody on child support and they are, you know, owed in arrears and you're saying I have to pay everything back in order to vote in this local election or national election or statewide election.

That doesn't make any sense to me because your money shouldn't be tied to your citizenship. So, you know, Florida, get it together. But, you know, it's not about. But here's the thing, Greg, what's important, what's important Florida, get it together. But, you know, it's not about... But here's the thing, Greg. What's important here, what's important... One second. What's important here for us to understand is that the folks who actually got Amendment 4 on,

it shows you the power of the ballot initiative and how regular, ordinary people can actually effect change. I would hope, Greg, that we see African Americans in other states use the power of the ballot initiative, use grassroots initiative to be able to enact such change. Absolutely. And to use it again in Florida. I mean, you know, the election that was stolen by DeSantis from Andrew Gillum led to this in part because they are terrified and they should be terrified because we're getting ready to run over them like the mighty wave. The age of the white supremacists the backs of the white supremacists is about to

be broken by demographics and they so i respect them for their last ditch effort to hold on to their tiny worldviews but let's look at this in terms of debt mississippi there's an article in new york times two days ago talked about the fact that they've got a similar kind of debt prison thing going on an arrangement where they're locking people up who owe money to the state. And they're one of the few states that are doing that. But see, we have to understand that in this country, the concept of citizenship congeals around the concept of property. Property is the center of the Western legal worldview, and particularly here in the United States. So when you look at the 13th Amendment, when it says, slavery or involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime of which the

person should have been duly convicted, what you've said is there are shades and dimensions of citizenship. Once you've fallen out of the legal universe and have diminished citizenship, meaning your property interest has transferred from being just a citizen to being property of the state, in other words, then you have to fight your way back into citizenship. Now, if this was somebody who wasn't convicted of a crime, this would be a poll tax, exactly what Kelly said. You can't do that. That's illegal. You get a 15th Amendment argument there, or you can go through the Voting Rights Act subject to the 14th Amendment. But this is the 13th Amendment we're talking about,

because now you have what you have is diminished citizens. They are returning citizens, and the state can technically do this. How do you break their back finally in doing this? You go back to the polls, you pass exactly the statute you want, and you flush that Klansman governor out and turn the legislature in Florida,

which they know is coming. Please, Floridians, Please, Mississippians, Alabamians, Tennesseans, and all over this country. Run these white supremacists out with step one, going to the ballot box, and when they raise their heads to fight you, meet them everywhere, including the street.

Because you see now, these are your open enemies. You know, the issue... Julianne, real quick. The issue is predatory capitalism the issue is the extent to which you take extra value from black brown poor people because you can and so when you look at some place like florida in terms of what's happening with people who have been essentially not exonerated, but essentially told they can vote. When you look at our prison industrial complex and the ways that people basically have their voting rights, working

rights, other rights extracted, we don't talk about that enough. I mean, there are words that people, black and white people, won't use. We won't talk about capitalism. Got it. And we won't talk about predatory capitalism. We won't talk about what socialism means. I ain't talking about Bernie because he's not a socialist. Bernie isn't Bernie. Yes. But but what I want to talk about is the extent to which we have allowed, especially black people, black men and women to be exploited because predatory capitalism allows that. Got it. Well, folks, again, we certainly appreciate the work of Desmond Meade and Sheena Meade, and we'll keep you updated on exactly what happens with that in the future.

Coming up next, our Still Seeking Freedom segment, 1619 to 2019. We talk about all black towns in Oklahoma next on Roland Martin Unfiltered. You want to check out Roland Martin Unfiltered? YouTube.com forward slash Roland S. Martin. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. There's only one daily digital show out here that keeps it black and keep it real. It's Roland Martin Unfiltered. See that name right there?

Roland Martin Unfiltered. Like, share, subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's youtube.com forward slash Roland S. Martin. And don't forget to turn on your notifications so when we go live, you'll know it. All right, folks. From 1865 to 1920, African Americans created more than 50 identifiable towns and settlements. Thirteen of them are still alive in Oklahoma. These all-black towns represent a unique chapter in American history, according to the Oklahoma Historical Society. No other place in the deep south or the far west had more African-American men and women come together to

create, occupy, and govern their own towns. Joining me right now to discuss this is Hannibal Johnson. He is the chair of the Education Committee for the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre Centennial Commission. And Hannibal, this is something that I think, you know, we know about the movie Rosewood. I know that there are towns in Texas. Barrett Station is one of those towns. There are places in Virginia where this happened. And so, I mean, these were places that were built from the ground up that black folks started and controlled. That's absolutely correct. One of the more interesting notions at the end of the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century was that if African-Americans could simply prove their industriousness, their ability to

be self-governing, then white racism would abate. And that sounds fanciful by 2020 standards, but that was a real philosophy promoted by the likes of Booker T. Washington and others. So part of the impetus for these towns was to be self-governing, to prove independence, to escape the hostility that folks faced in the Deep South, and to thereby help abate the kind of rigorous and vicious white racism that existed more generally. Also, Oklahoma was an important part of this development because the perception that Oklahoma was a place rife with economic opportunity because of the abundance of land. Oklahoma becomes a state in 1907. Prior to that, it was Indian territory. And one of the unique features about the black presence in Oklahoma is the fact that the so-called five civilized tribes, the Cherokees, the Muscogee Creek, the Seminole, the Choctaw, and the Chickasaw, they were all slave-holding tribes. So on those famous marches to Oklahoma, those trails of tears,

were a number of black migrants who were affiliated with those five tribes, many of them affiliated as enslaved persons. All the tribes sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War and after the Civil War executed treaties with the federal government that required that they free their enslaved Africans and incorporate them into the tribes and all the tribes did that with the exception of the Chickasaws and and we think about this very unique history these some of these towns are still active and alive today do you and so do you still see the presence, though, of African-Americans governing those places? Yes. In some of the towns, the premier town in Oklahoma has been and perhaps still is Bowley. So Bowley was founded in 1903 and still exists as a much smaller version of its prior self. Bowley at one point boasted 5,000 residents.

Now it's about a tenth of that. And the supreme irony in Boley is that one of the larger employers in the community is the John Lilly Correctional Institute, a prison. And guess who is well represented in the context of that prison? Some of the very African Americans who ostensibly thought to escape the kind of restrictions on their liberty in the deep South. That's part of the reason they migrated to Oklahoma in the first instance. But the black towns that exist, about a dozen or so today, are small communities struggling to survive, struggling to secure the kind of infrastructure that will sustain the town,

and ultimately struggling with maintaining young folk. Young folk who grew up in these towns, they want to wind up in the metropolitan areas of Oklahoma City and Tulsa and really have little interest in staying in these towns. So the towns really struggle for survival. One of the things that the towns have been doing is working together to create a cultural tourism experience. In other words, to leverage their rich history such that people who want to engage around history, and there are people like that all around the United States, and actually see the remnants of these towns, can come to these communities and ideally contribute financially to the health, well-being, and sustainability of these communities while they're there.

Greg Carr, you got a question? Yeah, you know, and first of all, Brother Johnson, thank you for your work over the years. I mean, your book, Black Wall Street, the book you did on Greenwood, and I think it was Acres of Aspiration where you write about these towns. I mean, just thank you.

You know, I don't know if you got a chance to see the HBO recent miniseries Watchmen, which begins with Tulsa and kind of runs through the thread. You know, just out of curiosity, what do you think a show like that, putting Tulsa at the center of a kind of futurist narrative, does for spreading the word about what happened in Tulsa? Well, I think most people I've talked to

found that the opening scene, that sort of five-minute segment, that kind of a reenactment, reimagination of the massacre, is quite compelling. So when I see something like that that is based in truth, based in fact, I hope that it encourages the viewers to actually seek out the actual history. I appreciate the artistic license that was taken by Watchmen. It brings in viewers. But I want those viewers to actually go back and look at the actual history and understand that history is not past.

History is present. So there's a legacy in the Tulsa community today based on what happened back in 1921, almost 100 years ago. Thank you. But you know, my brother. Do you have a question there from Kelly or Julian? A question, real short question. Question or comment comment the issue is uh no no no i want pick one okay pick one question is economic envy the fact is that when i looked at the governor of oklahoma's report on what happened one of the conclusions was that too many

N-words, and it was not the Negro word, had too much money. So how do you begin to reconcile economic envy with the story that you're telling? Go right ahead, sir. And I think you can look at the

economic dynamics in two ways. There was envy on the individual level because white supremacy prevailed, so poor white folks wondered what those N-words across the tracks were doing with fine cars, fine homes, jewelry, etc., etc. So that's on one level. On the other level, the Greenwood community, the black community, the black Wall Street community in Tulsa abuts downtown. It's about a 35-square-block area historically, and it was desired by industrial interests and railroad interests. So there is some evidence that there was an effort afoot to remove the black population, push them further north.

That's why some people, when they look at these events, they see not so much a riot, not so much a massacre, but a pogrom. An intentional removal of a population from their homelands based on surreptitious grounds. Kelly, do you—one second. One second. Go ahead and finish. Go ahead and finish. I'm going to say repairing the economic impact that happened 100 years ago is, I would say, well nigh impossible.

But there are some things that we can do in the way of infrastructure location, incentives from business leadership like the Tulsa Chamber to put us in a better position. Kelly, real quick, do you have a question? Sure. Your comment regarding the youth wanting to leave these small towns because of lack of infrastructure and opportunity, have any of those towns actually understood that predicament and are working to reconcile that issue? If so, what is happening in those towns? And if not, what do they need in order for that to happen? They are struggling. These are very small towns by and large, a few hundred people. So because they have lost, for example, schools in these communities, and schools are kind of the community rallying point in a lot of communities across the United States, not just

black communities. So the loss of those schools, the loss of population, the lack of infrastructure, these are really, really high hurdles to get over. What the towns have done that makes a lot of sense to me is collaborating, collaborating as a collective of Oklahoma all-black towns and seeing what kind of economic energy and synergy they can create, particularly, again, leveraging cultural or heritage tourism. All right, then. Well, first of all, sir, I am out of time. I certainly appreciate it.

Hannibal Johnson, chair of the Education Committee for 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre Centennial Commission. Thanks a lot. Thank you. All right, folks, real quick, a big congratulations to the late notorious B.I.G. and the late Whitney Houston, both of them. Some of the honorees inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which will take place on May 2nd at the Public Auditorium in Cleveland, Ohio, and broadcast live on HBO. Folks, I have to cut the show short today. I got to get out of here.

I got to fly back to Washington, D.C. Of course, I want to thank all the folks at Centene, the Washington, excuse me, the St. Louis Urban League, as well as the folks with St. Louis University. I spoke today at their MLK program, phenomenal program. If you missed it, we live streamed the speech. You can check that out. Later, I did a fireside chat at the Centene Corporation,

thanks to my girl, Erica Mcconduit. And so we will be able to get that video and be able to stream that for you later. It was a great discussion we had about diversity and inclusion. I wanna thank Greg, Julian, as well as Kelly there in the studio. I'm back in the joint tomorrow. Folks, we got some great stuff lined up for you. Don't forget, please support what we do here at Roland Martin Unfiltered. Again, who else? What other national show is bringing you Kim Gartner talking about

what she is going through, showcasing what happens with Marilyn Mosby and others. This show is about putting a black lens on what is happening in our community. But we need your support to make this happen. So please join Bring the Funk fan club. Go to RolandMartinUnfiltered.com and do so. Whatever you give, we certainly appreciate it. But our goal, though, to get uh as many folks 20 000 in one year to contribute 50 bucks each or four dollars and 19 cents a day excuse me a month

13 cents a day that's all it actually costs and so you can do a one-time donation or do it recurring we would certainly appreciate that because uh we want to keep this independent we want to keep it black owned and we want to be able to have the editorial independence to bring you the kind of content that you need, that you want, that you desire. And so we certainly appreciate that. All right, folks, you have an absolute fabulous day. I got to go. this is an iHeart podcast