#RolandMartinUnfiltered - 1.24 RMU: Yo Gotti, Jay-Z Miss. prison reform rally; Impeachment trial rages on; NFL Botham Jean PSA

Episode Date: January 25, 2020

1.24.20 #RolandMartinUnfiltered: Yo Gotti, Jay-Z Mississippi prison reform rally; Trump Impeachment trial rages on; NFL releases Botham Jean PSA highlighting police brutality ahead of the Super Bowl; Ball State professor calls the police on a student for not moving his seat. #RolandMartinUnfiltered partners: Are you looking to enhance your leadership or that of your team in 2020? Join Dr. Jacquie Hood Martin as she engages others to think like a leader. Register and start the online course today! www.live2lead.com/Leesburg - This is a CALL TO ACTION! On Monday February 3rd and Tuesday February 4th join the CBC for the 2020 National Black Leadership Summit. This call to action was established to mobilize African American participation in the 2020 census, as well as advocate for voting rights and the CBC's legislative agenda. For more info visit http://ow.ly/PpnW50y3EHh #RolandMartinUnfiltered is a digital news reporting platform covered under Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976 allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hey, folks. Today is Friday, January 24th, 2020. I am broadcasting live from Albuquerque, New Mexico, where I'll be speaking at an MLK program tomorrow at the University of New Mexico for the Africana Studies program. Coming up next on Roland Martin Unfiltered, Jay-Z and Yogati hold a prison rally in Mississippi, where nearly a dozen inmates have died recently.

And folks there say the conditions there are shameful when it comes to these inmates. They also have filed a federal lawsuit against the state. As a result, the impeachment trial of Donald Trump continues in the United States Senate as Democrats wrap up their opening statements tomorrow. Donald Trump's lawyers will get their shot to defend Trump. Let's see what they actually have to say. The NFL, they have unveiled a PSA very sympathetic to the case of Botham Jean, a black man shot and killed by a former Dallas police officer when he was in his apartment. But isn't this interesting?

Wasn't Colin Kaepernick protesting black man being killed by cops and he is still being white balled? Hmm. Okay. I gotcha. And a Ball State University professor. He asked a black student to move his seat. The black student chose not to. He called the cops.

What in the hell is going on? It's time to bring the funk. I'm Roland Martin on the filter. Let's go. He's got it. Whatever the mess, he's on it. Whatever it is, he's got the super fat, the fine. And when it breaks, he's right on time.

And it's Roland. Best believe he's knowing Putting it down from sports to news to politics With entertainment just for kicks He's rolling Yeah, yeah It's on for Royal Yeah, yeah It's rolling, Martin

Yeah, yeah, it's Rollin' Martin. Yeah, yeah, rollin' with Rollin' now. Yeah, he's funky, he's fresh, he's real, the best you know. He's Rollin' Martin now. Martin. Today at the state capital of Mississippi, a number of organizations came together, led by Jay-Z's philanthropic arm, Team Rock, as well as the Mississippi Prison Reform Coalition, the Poor People's Campaign, in addition to rapper Yo Gotti and the advocacy group Until Freedom, they were protesting prison conditions in the state of Mississippi, specifically the Parchman Prison, where a number of inmates, now upwards of a dozen, have died as a result of conditions in those prisons. Joining us right now is Tamika Mallory.

She is the co-founder of Until Freedom. She is there in Mississippi. Tamika, glad to have you back on Roller Martin Unfiltered. Thank you so much for having me on, Roland, and thank you so much for covering this issue. We can always count on you. So this has just been crazy. I was on social media earlier,

and I saw a story that said two more prisoners have died. And what's interesting is the governor there, three more, okay, the governor there is blaming the prisoners as if the conditions in the prison are just fine and just hunky-dory. Right. Well, what he's trying to do is connect the deaths that are happening in the prison solely with gang violence. He is trying to really exclude the government from responsibility and sort of absorb themselves of any responsibility in this whole situation. There had been a point where in Parchman, while the conditions were still bad, there were not people dying at the numbers that we see. But the conditions there have grown worse. Obviously, it's the winter months. There's been moments a lot of times when the prison has been very cold, when the food has not been served as it should, and as the conditions

begin to deteriorate even more, it has created tension. Whenever you put individuals in an inhumane situation, you're going to see violence spark. You're going to see suicide and other issues come up. And so what the local community organizers here have been saying is that we're not asking for everyone to be released, although they do believe that Parchment, the prison, needs to be closed down. And we can talk about the history of that later. However, what we're saying is that while people are doing their time, they should not have rats running around, running on them. Actually, we've seen video footage of three, four, five rats running around at one time in a particular closed area. We've seen roaches, we've seen the mold, we've seen the water. The water in itself, as we know in Flint, Michigan and other places where there's dirty water, has the ability to create mental issues and the water

in parchment is browner than my skin and so as the conditions have continued to deteriorate they've been bad for years but they've gotten worse they have it has also created a situation where violence has began to rise um you have a situation where 80 percent of the guards, the correction officers in an all-male prison are women. So that has created a particular dynamic. And we know that the staff there is very, very underpaid. There has not been any renewed money and budgets put into the prisons here across the entire state of Mississippi in too many years. So there are a lot of factors and the governor is being extremely irresponsible by trying to really reduce it to an issue of gang violence rather than having a conversation about the

entire picture. Again, five people have died since Saturday. One man committed suicide. Ten total. Eight of them have taken place in Parchman, and that has been but the reality is this here. If it was not for cell phones being snuck into these prisons, we would not be able to see visually what is happening. It would sort of be a he said, she said. But the state cannot deny the reality when you see inmates sloshing through water, when you see them, as through water, when you see them, when you see them, as you say, it's showing the rats, when you see them showing those conditions. And so

the governor seems to be, and again, the governor we're talking about here is Tate Reeves, who recently took over. He is more angry because they're actually showing what happened as opposed to what the conditions actually are. Absolutely. I mean, he's talking about the cell phones being contraband, which, by the way, the issue with how the phones are getting in has not come up. taking it in the jail. Today at the rally that we held where hundreds of people showed up to call for the issues in Parchment to be addressed, there was one woman who spoke about the three-inch glass that you have to speak through to visit your loved one. So we're not talking about civilians bringing contraband into the jail. We're talking about people who work for the prison system bringing this contraband, as he says, into the jail. But he continues to say that these cell phones have contributed to the violence and the conditions. I'm not sure how a cell phone goes to

mold and dirty water. If somebody else can help me understand that, maybe, Roland, you're smarter than me. Tell me how that happens. But what we do know is that those cell phones have helped to, have really been the thing that enabled and helped and assisted whistleblowers, because that's what these guys are right now with the retaliation that we know is happening. We have seen video footage of the officers doing the shakedowns, coming in to find the cell phones, and also just retaliating against these guys in general because we know that systems do not like to be exposed. But these men are putting themselves on the line. And where they say that some people are committing suicide, I believe that that probably is true in some of these situations. But what we know from one family particularly is that the proper autopsies have not even been done.

The proper procedures are not even being done on those people who have died, which the local folks here with family members and otherwise say that there have been more than 20 deaths that have taken place since all of this has been happening. So the news is reporting one thing, but the local folks are saying there's been many, many more deaths. So this situation is an epic humanitarian crisis. That is what we're dealing with. We just saw a video today of someone who showed that the jail is dark. So you have men inside of a prison that is dark, which can also contribute to a real challenge mentally. So this is a real serious situation. And we're saying to

everybody, because Parchment is everywhere, you know, Roland. Parchment is all over Texas, Indiana. It's in California. It's even in New York, where we had to do work at the Brooklyn facility, MDC, where they didn't have lights and heat during this time last winter. It's everywhere, and we feel everyone should be paying attention and helping in any way that you can. I am reading a tweet here. This is from, it was posted about six minutes ago by someone going by the name LizzyMag58.

Excuse me. My loved one got a staph infection and other skin disorders at Parchman Prison, sleeping on a rusted metal rack, no mat, bathing in rust-colored water. Where are the feds? We have asked you for, and she was tweeting Donald Trump. You, of course, are familiar with protesting what's happening in jails or prisons in the state of New York. We remember when there was no heat in the jail there and you had inmates who were freezing and were complaining and yelling and screaming about the cold temperatures there. Is it part of the problem also we're dealing with a society in this country who frankly doesn't give a damn about folks who are locked up,

who believes that how they're being treated is just, and that, you know what, throw the key away, lock them up, throw the key away. Who cares how they feel and what they think? It's certainly an element of that, and it's a very dangerous narrative. I mean, first of all, we have to acknowledge the fact that everyone that's in prison is not a violent offender. And even in those cases, we don't know all of the stories. We also know because we have seen the exonerations of people like the Central Park Five and other situations where we see people who've served 20 and 30 years being returned to society after being exonerated for crimes that

they did not commit. So inside of prisons, we have a diverse group of people, some who've been wrongfully convicted, others who have not necessarily committed crimes that would really equal the amount of time that they've received. If we had time today on this program, this show, on your show, to really talk about some of the sentencing laws here in Mississippi that have allowed people to do 30 and 40 years for low-level marijuana issues and other very low-level offenses, it means that the standard of humane treatment must be at least at a balanced level so that no matter what the situation is, everyone who is inside of a prison is able to live there at least in

a humane situation. Doesn't mean open up the doors. While we do believe that people who are eligible for parole should be allowed to go home, we believe that the governor has the ability to commute sentences for people who are elderly and folks who may have illness, different issues that they're dealing with, health issues that they're dealing with. So we do think that the governor ought to be working on doing those things to bring the overcrowding in the prisons here in Mississippi down. But nonetheless, the standard for living should at least be humane. We're not looking for them to roll out the red carpet inside of the

prison. But however, there should at least be clean water. And the last thing I'll say on that with this issue of throw away the key, lock people up, Parchment is literally sitting on a plantation at the end when slavery ended. That was a plantation during the time that people were slaves here in Mississippi. This particular area in Parchment. It was an actual plantation. And when slavery ended, the plantation closed and they opened a prison. And so this that we're talking about, this facility that we're talking about, is actually sitting on a plantation. So when we say lock the doors and throw away the key,

what we're talking about is leaving people in a continuous state of being enslaved. And it is an issue that has to be addressed at the highest level of government in this country. We cannot celebrate King Day and be hypocrites who say we love Dr. King and not follow what he did when he went into jails and into the valleys of our communities to lift our people from the bottom. Tamika, right now, I want to play. This is a video that we just pulled from us. We don't have it. OK, I thought we had it there. Again, the governor. What's next? You had this big protest out there. In terms of what's the next actionable steps? So our goal here has really been to support the local groups who are on the ground. They have a local list of demands. They are applying pressure. And I think what we did today is show that there is an escalated level of pressure that is going to be applied from the local community, getting them organized.

However, there are petitions. You can go to the Color of Change website right now, Color of Change website, and find the petition to shut down Parchment and also to fix some of the issues there. And as I said, the Mississippi Prison Reform Coalition, you can also find them on Facebook where there are a list of demands and things that you can be pushing the local elected officials to do right at this moment. We're gonna continue to organize.

We're gonna continue to bring people here and to hold different demonstrations and sit-ins and other opportunities for the governor and all of the elected officials who are in this area to hear from us, to keep putting pressure on this local government. And also we know that Team Rock Nation, Jay-Z's organization, along with Yo Gotti and a number of other individuals are in the process of filing a lawsuit to try to get this some relief, some immediate and emergency relief. So we ask people to continue to watch that and do what you can to help promote and push when the different steps are happening.

You see the phone number there for Parchman Superintendent. You can call 662-745-6611, extension 2301. Again, 662-745-6611, extension 2301. And the main line to the Mississippi Department of Corrections is 601-359-5600. 601-359- 0 0 to the control room. Also, please pull me up the phone number to the governor's office because folks need to hear, need to let him know how they feel as well. Before that, you go to make a here is the governor speaking to this issue a few hours ago. By using the managed access system to prevent contraband cell phones from being used in all of Parchman's housing units.

These phones have been illegal for years, but they've been snuck in. And they're being used to coordinate gang activity throughout the Mississippi system and even throughout the country. That was a large part of what caused the recent series of killings to escalate as much as it did. It's a real problem, and it's got to be taken seriously to save lives. We want to make sure that corrections officers are not creating more problems than they solve. The vast majority of officers are doing difficult work for far too little pay.

I could not hear. I don't know if you heard him as well, Tamika. But the reality is the governor of Mississippi is responding the same way as other governors of Mississippi have responded to these type of issues, a pretty much callous response. And as somebody who was from Texas, who was familiar with the fact that Texas prisons were under a federal jurisdiction really for more than 20 years, this is where historically folks have looked to the federal government,

but you've got an administration now, a Department of Justice, doesn't give a damn about regular people, certainly the backs of law enforcement at any time. Mississippi is a red state. And so, you know, and then, of course, you look at Trump appointing these right-wing federal judges. This is where I keep trying to explain to people

why elections matter, who we put in office, because you would hopefully, you would have sympathetic federal judges who care about the conditions in these prisons with the existing administration and who they're appointing. That is likely not the case. That's right. No, absolutely. I mean, I've been telling

folks that while they, we talk about the First Step Act, and I think it's good work to ensure that people are able to leave prison. While they're doing that and sort of letting people out the front door, they're sending people to prison and also treating them less than human by the millions, literally in this country through the back doors because the federal judges that have been put in place are not people who look at rehabilitation as a real necessity. And also these are not folks who are looking at ulterior ways or different ways rather to deal with issues in our communities. They're not looking for, you know, different options and ways to help really get our people on their feet and really

get them back into society. And so there's a lot of work to be done. I think one of the demands, certainly, is to have the federal government look at this issue. However, I have no confidence whatsoever that the federal government is going to intervene in a way that is helpful. What you hear Governor Reeves doing when he keeps talking about the cell phone, the contraband, the contraband, he is trying to make an excuse and really give way for officers to be able to go into the jails and beat these men and again retaliate against them for putting the information out. What he should be saying is that he's glad as the governor of this state, the new governor of this state, that he had an opportunity to see for himself what is

happening in the prisons and that there is real work that has to be done. All right. Rukia Lumumba, Zecca Director of the People's Advocacy Institute, who is there as well. She and others are promising they will continue and that there's going to be another protest taking place in the state capitol on Monday. Tamika Mallory, co-founder of Until Freedom. We appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Thank you.

All right. I want to go to my panel there in D.C. Malik Abdul, Republican strategist, Pam Key. She's an attorney and activist along with Victoria Burke, a writer within NPA. Malik, I'll start with you. This is your home state. Are you satisfied with the response that you're seeing from the governor and state officials to the inhumane conditions in these prisons and also the fact that nearly a dozen inmates have now died in little more than a month? No, I'm not. I mean, and it's hard for anyone to make the argument that they're satisfied with what

we're seeing just because of the videos and a lot of the footage that we've seen about Parchment. And what people should know is that Parchment actually started as a penal farm. It was following the South Carolina model for penal farms and for black people, obviously. And maybe later, I think maybe about 20 or so years later, it started actually getting white people in there. But the facilities are decrepit.

We've seen videos of that. I think the facility probably was built in maybe 1901 or something. But I agree with what Tamika said about, you know, Parchman, unfortunately, is just an example of what we see in areas all around the country. You know, of course the governor is going to try to save his butt, but when you have the conditions that we see... Like, for me personally, seeing

one mouse rat is enough in any space. So the idea that you're in a space with the plumbing conditions and we know there are many instances where I'm pretty sure that lead, the building is so old, I'm pretty sure there are issues with lead contamination and all sorts of things. So that really doesn't surprise me as far as just the people who are pushing back against it. You know, I'm happy that Jay-Z is interested, involved in it. I hope that this actually starts a movement where we're looking at similar places all around the country, because as again, unfortunately, this is not just limited to parchment, but this is something that, you know, maybe in an election year, it could actually be helpful to have people like Jay-Z out there.

You know, there's a Senate race that's going to be coming up with Senator Hyde-Smith, between Senator Hyde-Smith and Mike Espy. So this is something that can really get people to the polls. And I think that people, irrespective, you know, and we should be clear that, you know not not every person who's at Parchman is black so white people who are at Parchman are subjected to the same conditions so this is something that everyone should care about not just because you may care about black people but because you care about the humane treatment of individuals period of course the last time Pam we had discussed this issue on Roland Martin Unfiltered, we actually had a white woman who was the mother of a man who was in one of those prisons.

When you look at, again, this response, I mean, I'm sorry, this pretty much callous response, Pam, to, I mean, 10 inmates have died. The latest one committed suicide. There are people who just, who are saying they cannot tolerate these conditions and they would rather take their own life and deal with that. That should be troubling. Right. Roland, I want to make two important points here. First of all, from a legal perspective, when a person is put into custody or state custody, the state has full command and control over their lives and there is a responsibility to put them in humane conditions. That has been established by the Supreme Court over and over again. We inherited an attitude towards criminals from our English ancestors that threw people

in the bottom of a hole and hoped their families fed them. If they didn't, they just starved to death. Well, over the years, we found that we didn't want to repeat the mistake that was made in the English penal system because it was inhumane and it had no rehabilitative ability whatsoever. So point number one is it is the responsibility of the taxpayers of the state of Mississippi to make sure that all of their prisons are in humane conditions. But I want to make another point, and your guest didn't really touch on this, but I have seen on social media in several places, you can't take it all 100% gospel truth, but I've seen a lot about groups of inmates being pitted against each other and correctional officers sort of egging on, allowing or even spurring violence against inmates or between inmates.

And that having low lighting, bad conditions, dirty water, that kind of thing exacerbates the fear and the mental stress and the mental agony of being confined that way. So when you add fear of being attacked or raped or hurt in prison on top of being cold, underfed or having low lighting, and then on top of that, the despair of not being paid attention to and nobody caring, that's when you start to get suicidal conditions. That's when it starts to get so bleak that people feel like death is their best option. We're seeing sort of the perfect storm coming together in these prison facilities. And it is up to the, you know, 37 percent of Mississippi's voting population is black. They need to stand up and they need to show up at those polls to vote in people who will take this seriously.

Lauren. Yeah, and the first thing Malik touched on is that this has to be an issue at the ballot box. It has to be something that Mike Espy brings up and his opponent brings up as a political issue. Unfortunately, Mississippi is a particular state that has a legacy of this type of thing. It's not really all that. Shocking that Tate Reeves, who is an accountant, you know, is out there doing another sort of Ross Barnett routine that Mississippi is known for.

It's embarrassing. I mean, what can you say? I mean, I'm surprised the U.N. or somebody hasn't come in and talked about some sort of human rights violation. But the state of Mississippi is, like, 50th in health care, and the per capita income is only $23,000. None of this is particularly surprising. And it shouldn't take Jay-Z and a bunch of entertainers coming in to bring attention to something that is a human rights violation, effectively. So it's embarrassing. What can you say?

It's like, you know, we talk about these other countries, once again, Russia and Venezuela and all these other places that have really bad prison conditions, but obviously Rikers and Parchment are rivaling that. Obviously Parchment has got a historic legacy of this that goes back to, if you remember, obviously the Freedom Riders who were brought to Parchment, and, you know, here we are 60 years later I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT

THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT

THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT soon. Well, we certainly are going to continue talking about this here, certainly elevating the folks who are there protesting. And so we certainly appreciate the work that they're doing to make this issue real. All right, folks, got to go to break. When we come back, we're going to

talk about impeachment. Democrats closed their arguments today. Many folks very impressed with how they laid the facts out. The question still remains, will Republicans actually give a damn, or will they do all they can to protect Donald Trump? That's next on Roller Martin Unfiltered, broadcast live from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Roller Martin Unfiltered, be sure to join our Bring the Funk fan club.

Every dollar that you give to us supports our daily digital show. There's only one daily digital show out here that keeps it black and keep it real. As Roland Martin Unfiltered support the Roland Martin Unfiltered daily digital show by going to RolandMartinUnfiltered.com. Our goal is to get 20,000 of our fans contributing 50 bucks each for the whole year. You can make this possible. RolandMartinUnfiltered.com All right, folks, please join Reverend Dr. Jackie Hood Martin

for an online masterclass that she is leading and that engages others to think like a leader. Many folks are looking to enhance their leadership skills or that of their team in 2020. So you can join this online course and mastermind group called How Successful People Think. Now the offer expires February 28th. And so you want to go ahead and register now. So to register, go to www.live2lead.com forward slash Leesburg. Again, the address is www.Live2Lead.com forward slash Leesburg. Again, it is the online class, How Successful People Think.

And so there are a lot of folks out there, of course, who have life coaches and folks who are trying to get them to teach them to learn how to lead. And Dr. Jackie Hood-Martin is a certified instructor through John Maxwell in his courses there. And so you definitely can take advantage of that. And again, last one, the website again is www.livetolead.com forward slash Leesburg. All right, folks. Today, the Democrats gave their final arguments in the opening statements in the impeachment trial of Donald Trump before the United States Senate. Last night, Congressman Adam Schiff closed very strong, challenging Republicans as to whether or not, challenged the entire United States Senate as to whether or not they would allow Donald Trump to

completely run roughshod over the U.S. Constitution. They also made it clear that there needs to be witness testimony. This comes after ABC revealed today an audio recording of Donald Trump telling Lev Parnas to take the ambassador out in Ukraine. Hmm. Sounds like something that John Gotti would say. Here, folks, is Adam Schiff, as well as Congressman Hakeem Jeffries and Congresswoman Val Demings, making the argument as to why the United States Senate should vote to convict and remove Donald Trump as president of the United States. This brings me to the last point I want to make tonight, which is when we're done, we believe that we will have made the case overwhelmingly of the president's guilt. That is, he has done what he's charged with. He withheld the money.

He withheld the meeting. He used it to coerce Ukraine to do these political investigations. He covered it up. He obstructed us. He's trying to obstruct you. And he's violated the Constitution. But I want to address one other thing tonight. Okay, he's guilty. Okay, he's guilty.

Okay, he's guilty. Does he really need to be removed? Does he really need to be removed? We have an election coming up. Does he really need to be removed? He's guilty. You know, is there really any doubt about this? I mean, do we really have any doubt about the facts here?

Does anybody really question whether the President is capable of what he's charged with? No one is really making the argument, Donald Trump would never do such a thing. Because of course we know that he would, and of course we know that he did. It's a somewhat different question, though, to ask, okay, it's pretty obvious whether we can say it publicly or we can't say it publicly, we all know what we're dealing here with this president. But does he really need to be removed?

And this is why he needs to be removed. Donald Trump chose Rudy Giuliani over his own intelligence agencies. He chose Rudy Giuliani over his own FBI director. He chose Rudy Giuliani over his own national security advisors. When all of them were telling him this Ukraine 2016 stuff is kooky, crazy, Russian propaganda. He chose not to believe them. He chose to believe Rudy Giuliani. That makes him dangerous to us, to our country.

That was Donald Trump's choice. Now, why would Donald Trump believe a man like Rudy Giuliani over a man like Christopher Wray? Okay? Why would anyone in their right mind believe Rudy Giuliani over Christopher Wray? because he wanted to, and because what Rudy was offering him was something that would help him personally. And what Christopher Wray was offering him was merely the truth. What Christopher Wray was offering him was merely the information he needed to protect his country and its elections. But that's not good enough.

What's in it for him? What's in it for Donald Trump? This is why he needs to be removed. Now you may be asking, how much damage can he really do in the next several months until the election? A lot. A lot of damage. Now, we just saw last week a report that Russia tried to hack or maybe did hack Burisma. Okay? I don't know if they got in.

I'm trying to find out. My colleagues on the Intel Committee, House and Senate, we're trying to find out. Did the Russians get in? What are the Russian plans and intentions? Well, let's say they got in. And let's say they start dumping documents to interfere in the next election. Let's say they start dumping some real things they hacked from Burisma.

Let's say they start dumping some fake things they didn't hack from Burisma, but they want you to believe they did. Let's say they start blatantly interfering in our election again to help Donald Trump. Can you have the least bit of confidence that Donald Trump will stand up to them and protect our national interest over his own personal interest? You know you can't, which makes him dangerous to this country. You know you can't. You know you can't count on him.

None of us can. None of us can. What happens if China got the message? Now, you can say, well, he's just joking. Of course, he didn't really mean China should investigate the Bidens. You know that's no joke. Now, maybe you could have argued three years ago when he said, hey, Russia, if you're listening, hack Hillary's emails.

Maybe you could give him a freebie and say he was joking. But now we know better. Hours after he did that, Russia did in fact try to hack Hillary's emails. There's no mulligan here when it comes to our national security. So what if China does overtly or covertly start to help the Trump campaign? You think he's going to call him out on it? Or you think he's going to give him a better trade deal on it? Can any of us really have the confidence that Donald Trump will put his personal interests ahead of the national interest. Is there really any evidence in this presidency that should give us the ironclad confidence that he would do so?

You know you can't count on him to do that. That's the sad truth. You know you can't count on him to do that. The American people deserve a president they can count on to put their interest first. To put their interest first. Colonel Vindman said here right matters.

Here right matters. Well let me tell you something. If right doesn't matter, if right doesn't matter, if right doesn't matter, it doesn't matter how good the Constitution is. It doesn't matter how brilliant the framers were.

It doesn't matter how good or bad our advocacy in this trial is. It doesn't matter how well written the oath of impartiality is. If right doesn't matter, we're lost. If the truth doesn't matter,

we're lost. Framers couldn't protect us from ourselves if right and truth don't matter. And you know that what he did was not right. You know, that's what they do in the old country. The Colonel Vindman's father came from. Or the old country that my great-grandfather came from. Or the old countries that your ancestors came from. Or maybe you came from. But here, right is supposed to matter. It's what's made us the greatest nation on earth.

No constitution can protect us. Right doesn't matter anymore. And you know you can't trust this president to do what's right for this country. You can trust he will do what's right for Donald Trump. He'll do it now. He's done it before. He'll do it for the next several months. He'll do it in the election if he's allowed to. This is why if you find him guilty, you must find that he should be removed. Because right matters. Because right matters. And the truth matters. Otherwise we are lost. This strongly suggests that there was an active attempt to conceal the clear evidence of the President's wrongdoing.

Instead of addressing the President's misconduct, Mr. Eisenberg seemingly tried to cover it up. Why did Mr. Eisenberg place the July 25th call summary on a server for highly classified material? Did anyone senior to Mr. Eisenberg direct him to hide the call record? Why did the call record remain on the classified server even after the so-called error was discovered? Who ordered the cover-up of the call record? Who ordered the cover-up of the call record? The American people deserve to know.

Now, there is one point that I would like to make very clear. President Trump's wholesale obstruction of Congress strikes at the very heart of our Constitution and our democratic system of government. The president of the United States could undertake such comprehensive obstruction only because of the exceptional powers entrusted to him by the American people. Only one person in the world has the power to issue an order to the entire executive branch. That person, Senators, as you know, is the President. And President Trump used that power not to faithfully execute the law, but to order agencies and employees of the executive branch to conceal evidence of his misconduct. Now, I know that no other American could seek to obstruct an investigation into his or her wrongdoing in this way.

We all know that no other American could use the vast powers of our government to undertake a corrupt scheme to cheat to win an election and then use those same powers to suppress the evidence of his constitutional crime. We would not allow, no, I am convinced that we would not allow any member of our state or local governments to use the official powers of their office to cover up crimes and misdeeds. As this body is well aware, mayors and governors have gone to jail for doing so. Sheriffs and police chiefs are certainly not immune. If we allow President Trump to escape accountability, we will inflict lasting damage on the separation of powers among our branches of government.

I want to start with you, Pam. When you looked at how Democrats laid out their case, the videos, using videos previously of Senator Lindsey Graham, of Alan Dershowitz. They even played a video today of the late Senator John McCain, the slide presentations. Your assessment of how the Democrats presented their case, and was it, in your words, your opinion, convincing? Well, Roland, I mean, it was a masterful presentation from all of the managers who spoke. The last one, Val Demings, did an excellent job.

I don't think the question is about the competence of Democrats to put together a convincing case. I think the issue is you have a party that has decided it simply refuses to be convinced by anything. And I think at that point what we're facing is not a difference of opinion. There comes a point when your refusal to accept truth is no longer about difference of opinion. It's about assaulting the truth speaker. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. If we were in a park and I got jumped by two people and they beat the dickens out of me and two other people witnessed it, they saw my arms get broken, my hair pulled and in a park and I got jumped by two people and they beat the dickens out of me. And two other people witnessed it.

They saw my arms get broken, my hair pulled and got kicked in the gut and I tried to go after those two people. If the witnesses who saw it all, saw all the bruising, the bleeding and everything, stood on a stand and said, well, we don't see that it's that big of a deal. Well, we don't know what we saw. It could have been dark. Well, you know, why are we even bothering with this? At that point, it's not a difference of opinion.

At that point, they're trying to punish me for coming forward with my claim. And that's really what's happening here. The GOP is trying to punish the country and most especially the Democrats for having the nerve to come forward with this. Because everybody knows what Donald Trump did, including Donald. Their position is we don't care. But that's just another way of saying we want to hurt you for bringing it up in the first place. Lauren, what's interesting here is as I looked at, again, the comments being made, Lindsey Graham at one point was complaining,

all right, why do they gotta keep repeating it? I heard it by the fourth time. Well, that's as somebody who was a JAG prosecutor in the military, I think he understands how prosecutors are supposed to do their job. But when to have Republicans who come out and who go, oh, nothing actually happened. Nothing, nothing happened whatsoever. It's sort of like la la la la la la la la. I don't want to hear anything.

They literally sound like spoiled children. As you listen to what took place, it is undeniable that Donald Trump used the power of the presidency to withhold aid to Ukraine in order to get them to investigate a political rival. It is undeniable. Right. The facts are not really in dispute there. And actually, it would be interesting to see some of the Republicans argue that they're acknowledging those facts and that they don't think he should be removed from office anyway. That would actually

be a coherent argument if you said, well, OK, these things are true, but we still don't feel he should be removed for these particular facts that are presented. Because remember, of course, we're not talking about some of the other things that could have been added to the articles and monuments and all sorts of things, using the office to gain financially. But frankly, I think the Senate is about to prove that Donald Trump is, in fact, above the law. I mean, this is a political moment, and no matter how coherent and rational these presentations are and they are coherent and rational most of the managers on the Democratic side of course our attorneys and so they're arguing this sort of fact-based

reality-based you know thing out there but we're in with the political realm and one thing that Trump and his folks are good at is understanding that you have to communicate. You've got to put it where the goats can get them, as they say in communication. So they're not bothering with factual data. They're not bothering with reality. They're not even bothering with the details of the allegations. They're going above that or they're completely ignoring the facts and just sort of going into the political realm and dealing with the people

out there who are not following this on the micro level. So to me, it's kind of like it's obvious that Trump did these things. It's obvious that the Republicans can't make an argument, which is why they don't want any witnesses. The minute you start getting into the details of this case, they lose. They know that that's their kryptonite. They know that they cannot talk about any of the details of what happened because they know that Trump did it and Trump knows he did it. So it's not, that's not even an issue. But this president is not bound to respect the law. He will not respect the law. This is a gangster regime. This is a criminal enterprise and it's right in front of everybody's face,

and they're going to play this game of chicken and see if they can get away with it, and they probably will get away with it. The only good thing that comes out of this is that you do see Republicans, uh, they started a group, uh, uh, you see some Republicans who started a group that are saying basically that this is outrageous. So the Republican Party is sort of starting to split in two. It's not just all political for some. That's at least good to see, Rick Wilson and his group. But other than that, we're about to see that this president, in fact, is above the law.

Malik, I look at Fox senior analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano, who actually wrote a piece on the on Fox News dot com website where he wrote. What is required for removal of the president? A demonstration of presidential commission of high crimes and misdemeanors of which in Trump's case, the evidence is ample and uncontradicted. He goes on to make a number of other cases. He said that, first of all, this is a story that was written. Napolitano makes this case by arguing that any Republican senator who whispered the idea that Trump will be acquitted are, quote, unworthy of sitting as a and has violated the oath of impartial justice and fidelity to the Constitution and the law. Last point here, I'm going to read and then you can respond. Judge Napolitano writes,

I don't blame President Trump for his angst and bitterness over his impeachment by the House of Representatives. In his mind, he has done nothing wrong and not acted outside the constitutional powers vested in him, and so his impeachment should not have come to pass. Hence, his public denunciations of his Senate trial as a charade, a joke, and a hoax. His trial is not a charade or a joke or a hoax. It is deadly serious business based on well-established constitutional norms. And to last point to what Lauren had to say, when you talk about how Trump is, I will say this, is pimping the American taxpayer. He is going to be visiting his resort Doral in Miami. The room rates at that hotel, which has actually been doing horrible since he became president, it's been losing money, the rooms average around $230.

Trump is going to be visiting soon, and they've jacked the rooms up to $535. This is somebody who is literally pimping the American taxpayer and profiting off of the presidency. Your response? Yeah, obviously, I disagree with that. I mean, the notion that a city or a hotel jacks up prices for particular events, that's not something that's uncommon but Meli Meli this is not this is not a particular event here we go Meli this is not a particular event I know but I mean I said five seconds worth of things you let your other two guests talk I said five seconds no no no hold up hold up no follow me I, no, follow me. I'm going to. No, no, no.

I'm going to explain to you what the event is. I'm going to let you talk. No problem. There is no event. This is it. Life is super. He's going there and they are purposely jacking it up because he is going to be bringing and the Secret Service and staff will be taking up all these rooms. That's what they're doing.

Go ahead. Yeah, so this is not something that's uncommon. I don't agree with the decision to do it, but that a hotel jacks up prices is not something that's uncommon. About the hearing itself, you know, I don't doubt that, you know, tomorrow when Republicans actually start their defense, I don't doubt that the Republicans, there will be many people who will be disagreeing with what Republicans are saying. I think this is a lot of theater that we're seeing now. As far as Democrats are concerned, I don't know if any Democrat was more convinced in the past couple of days than they were when they voted for the articles of impeachment. I think this is something that

Democrats have wanted to do all along. And so on the notion of just impartiality, I think we should really disabuse ourselves of the notion that somehow, whether it's in the House or in the Senate, that either side is impartial. We know that there have been people who have been calling for Trump's impeachment and voted for his impeachment since at least 2017. We know he's been protested against since the day after he won his election.

So that people aren't impartial really is something that's kind of both sides do that. I don't think that the Senate, the senators are going to be any less or more impartial than Democrats are. I think people have actually chosen sides. So you have people Democrats are going to believe and they believe that Trump, even during the Mueller investigation, because we had those 11 instances that Mueller cited that were impeachable, we just did not get there because this came up. So those same people who believe that are the same people who are going to believe this. Even the presidential candidates that we have out there now who were calling for his impeachment before the House

actually voted on the articles, before witnesses actually testified. So that people are, you know, that this is the part, this is the politics of the day. But I did want to correct something that you said about the Parnas guy or something, the ABC story. Well, the ABC story never actually said that Trump instructed Parnas. He was actually instructing his chief of staff. Now we could, I'm sorry, his deputy chief of staff. Now we can make the argument that that's not something that he should be doing. We know that that's the president. Why is he, first of all, let's be real clear.

Why is he talking to Lev Parnas about getting rid of an ambassador? First, second of all, let's deal with this here. Donald Trump has lied by saying he didn't know who Lev Parnas was. He just sort of took a picture. There's an audio recording. you having a conversation with him. Why is Lev Parnas and Rudy Giuliani working to oust a U.S. ambassador?

If you want to get rid of somebody, it's the State Department's job. Also, why did American security personnel tell this ambassador, you need to get on the next plane because they felt that she was being targeted. Well, that's something that... And Parnas is on record as saying they were targeting her and they were threatening her. I'm sorry. Where do you think you got the nod to threaten the Ukrainian ambassador? Who told you that?

Well, that's... We know that, you know, this is a lot of, and I would say, you know, that's more of a gangster-like move, but again, Donald Trump actually asked that. And who, and who, who, what gangster was Lea Parnas and Rudy Giuliani working with and doing the bidding for? So, as I said, that's more of a gangster move, but we should not. No, no, no, no, no, no.

I need you to answer the question. What gang? See, if you're going to call something a gangster move, you need to name the gangster. But we should not. Who was Leah Parnas and Rudy Giuliani working on behalf of? But we should not ignore the fact that, of course. No, no, no, no, no, no. Malik, I need you to answer.

Who was Leah Parnas and Rudy Giuliani working on behalf of? So as we know that they were in that room with Donald Trump. So I would assume that that person actually is Donald Trump. But again, so he was. And in fact, according to the transcript. Hold up. According to the transcript. Here we go.

Malik, according to the transcript. Go ahead and finish that up transcript. Here we go. Malik, according to the transcript. Go ahead and finish that up, Roland. According to the transcript. No, no, no. I'm stating facts. According to the transcript. And I just told you, in fact, that you actually did not tell the truth on air about. No, here's the deal.

According to the transcript that Donald Trump always references in the transcript, he tells the Ukrainian president, you're going to hear from Rudy Giuliani. Yeah, well, I'm someone who actually believes that Donald Trump should really get rid of Giuliani. I didn't think that Giuliani should have been on Donald Trump's team, even when he was floating around that he was possibly going to be the attorney general. And I think at some point, it ended up being Secretary of State. You know, I'm one of those who believes that Rudy Giuliani has not served the president well at all. But, you know, there are people who like Giuliani and Trump has a relationship with him. But I don't think that he actually has served the president well at all.

But, you know, this is the product of people who are arrogant criminals who are going to stare you down. I mean, as somebody who was born in the Bronx, this is the New York way. We are going to dare you to stop us. You are not going to make us stop. We are going to do what we want. We are going to break the law. We are going to do what other presidents haven't done.

And we're going to see if you stop us. That is what Donald Trump is doing. And the Senate we're going to see if you stop us that is what donald trump is doing and the you the senate is not going to they're not going to stop him they're not going to stop him they're going to watch him break the law they're going to i mean these facts are in evidence these are not things we're not this is like arguing about whether or not today is friday i mean we know that trump did these things so we don't need to go over the details and go back and forth. It happened. He did it. So the question then is, what are we going to do about it? And the answer

is nothing if, in fact, we know our politics well, which we do. We're watching Mitch McConnell. They're going to do nothing about it for a multitude of reasons. And Pam, here's the deal here, Pam. Hold on, I'm pulling Pam in here. Here's the deal, Pam.

Congressman Adam Schiff stands there and says, guys, he is going to do this again. Yes, he is. Donald Trump is on record as saying, yes, if a foreign entity had any dirt on a political rival, I would want to see it. Donald Trump, the only reason the Ukrainian money was released was because Democrats in the House found out what he did and busted them.

They said, OK, we got to release the money. Donald Trump, this whole, him being impeached, him being investigated, the Mueller report, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi was right when she said, folks, don't worry. He is going to impeach himself. And that's exactly what he did. Roland, I want to make two quick points

here. First of all, I want to address the point that Malik made, which is, oh, it's all political. We don't have to actually engage the evidence at all. Democrats didn't like him. Therefore, he should get to commit whatever crime he wants and not be held accountable because the Democrats always wanted to get him. That is one of the most intellectually dishonest and superficial. Wait a minute. Who said that? If you're going to actually accuse me of saying

something, who actually said that? Because I actually never said that. I mean, it's literally so if you want to do a performance, we can do a performance. But don't sit on the panel and say something that there's an actual recording of me not saying. No, but that's exactly what you said. It's political. It's just, there's no impartiality. But it's literally not what I said. No, but that's exactly what you said. If you're going to quote me, then you should actually do a better job of actually quoting me. That's exactly what you were implying. That's exactly what you were saying're saying now it's an implication and not what i actually said it is exactly what i said that i didn't say that which is exactly what you were saying unfortunately we don't actually have to engage what he did. Listen, everybody stop talking. Everybody stop talking.

No one can hear either of you. Pam, finish your point, and then Malik, you'll get to make your point. Pam, go. I take issue with the notion that because people wanted to get Donald Trump out of office from the very beginning, we now no longer have to examine what he actually did. There were people who wanted to get Barack Obama out of office from the very beginning. Barack Obama just chose not to indulge them by doing a bunch of crime. Donald Trump did the crime. He did the crime. The fact that there are Democrats who don't like him is irrelevant if they actually put on sworn testimony, put in evidence, receipts, text messages, pictures, proof. If they put in evidence, it does not matter what

their motivation was. At the end of the day, if he did the crime, he needs to do the time. That's the point I'm trying to make. This notion that a Senate should be, you know, the impartiality of the Senate should be jettisoned because how, you know, they just don't like Democrats is ridiculous. The oath that you take to the Constitution and upholding the rule of law is not dependent on whether you like or you don't like him. We're not getting rid of Donald Trump because we don't like him. We're not impeaching him because we don't like him. He indulged us by committing a bunch of crimes, and he got caught doing so.

He doesn't get absolved from that because if you absolve him, somehow you give a benefit to the Democrats. He has to be held accountable one way or another. This notion that you don't have to actually engage the data, the facts, the evidence, the testimony, because, oh, if you do so, that's going to help Democrats. That's obscene. That's an obscene miscarriage of what your oath

is. And that was the point I'm trying to make. There is no justification for some unwillingness to actually look at the evidence. That's not justified. That's immoral. Yeah. So, Roland, now I can. Mellick. Final comment. Mellick, final comment. Yeah. So Pam did not tell the can... Mellick? Yeah. Final comment. Mellick, final comment. Yeah. So, Pam did not tell the truth because that's not something that I actually said. And I'll repeat what I said again. We're at a time where Democrats are not going to believe that Republicans are sincere in investigating this. Republicans don't believe that Democrats

are sincere. We know that both sides have come to this, already pretty much decided which way they're going to go, whether or not that was in the House or whether that's not in the Senate. There is not going to be any senator on the Democratic side or Republican side who probably will change their view about it. Now, what I do want to say is that I'm one of those who has said that there was nothing perfect about that call. I've said that on your show many times. And there have been many Republicans in the House and across the country who've said that Donald Trump shouldn't have made that ask on the call.

You mentioned Judge Napolitano. I watch Fox all the time, believe it or not. And there was a good, healthy debate between Judge Napolitano and Professor Turley on whether or not what Donald Trump did is something that's actually impeachable. I think that if we're going to have an intellectually honest conversation, we can have an intellectually honest conversation. Okay, fine, Malik, answer the question.

Malik, answer the question. Do you believe what Donald Trump did is impeachable? No, I don't. The man is a thug and a gangster, a white-collar thug, and if he was black, he'd be under the jail. Donald Trump is guilty. But see, we want to play this game. We know he did it. He stopped aid from Ukraine to kneecap Joe Biden.

That happened. That happened. That factually happened. The question is, is that impeachable? You think it's right to hold up international aid to kneecap your political rival? No, but just because you believe that's something that's actually... You think that's okay? That's cool. Because that's something that you believe is impeachable.

So if Barack Obama had done that, you'd be sitting here like, oh, that's cool, that's all right, let's start a future. Yeah, if, well, as someone who actually voted for Barack Obama... And here's the thing, Malik, here's the thing. I actually would say... We're not even talking about half the stuff Trump did that we could have added to the article. Yeah, well, you could have added the 11...

That's what I'm saying. You could have been left with the 11 articles that Mueller came from. You did not. Look, it's not going to happen for this part you write about, for political reasons, because, of course, the Republicans don't care. They're thinking about their constituents, and they're going to let them off. So here it is. You're literally proving my point. So basically, they're going to say, oh, it's OK. It's good.

It's all good. Everybody pipe down. Everybody pipe down. Republicans are going to let them off. Everyone pipe down. That's the way it works. Everyone pipe down. Everyone stop talking. Everyone stop talking. No one can even hear what any of y'all are saying because it sounds all mumbled because that's how it sounds on my end.

I know that sounds at home. I'm sure it does. Republicans are going to present for one second. Republicans will present three hours to my. Excuse me. I'm talking. Republicans will Excuse me. I'm talking. Yeah, I hear you. Republicans will start their...

I'm talking. Republicans will start their presentation tomorrow. Three hours. They will pick it up on Monday. We will be discussing it on Monday. Going to a break when we come back. The NFL released the PSA regarding the Botham Jean case. Really?

Did we forget what Colin Kaepernick was protesting? I'll discuss next. Roland Martin Unfiltered. You want to support Roland Martin Unfiltered? Be sure to join our Bring the Funk fan club. Every dollar that you give to us supports our daily digital show. There's only one daily digital show out here that keeps it black and keep it real. As Roland Martin Unfiltered support the Roland Martin Unfiltered Daily Digital Show by going

to RolandMartinUnfiltered.com. Our goal is to get 20,000 of our fans contributing 50 bucks each for the whole year. You can make this possible. RolandMartinUnfiltered.com. I tell you, you did exactly that. You made it. Excuse me. Excuse me. Thank you. and unfiltered.com. You did exactly that. You made... Excuse me.

Excuse me. Thank you. The Congressional Black Caucus has put out an emergency call for national African-American leadership. They will be holding a summit February 3rd and February 4th in the nation's capital.

On February 3rd, it will take place at the Hyatt Hotel in Washington, D.C. On February 4th, it will take place at the Hyatt Hotel in Washington, D.C. on February 4th. It will take place on Capitol Hill. A number of workshops and sessions are planned. It is all focused on the 2020 election, the Democratic primary, but also the fall election, as well as the U.S. Census, which is taking place. And so if you go to this website for more information, cbc.house.gov forward slash 2020, cbc.house.gov forward slash 2020 for more information.

All right, folks, the NFL this week unveiled a PSA centered around the story of Botham Jean, the black man who was shot and killed by former Dallas police officer Amber Geiger. She was sentenced to prison for his murder. A lot of people are asking, really, NFL? You're focusing on this when you're still whiteballing Colin Kaepernick? Here's the PSA. Botham Jean is my son. He is an active child.

He is the light in any dark room. Botham is my little brother. He is the kindest, sweetest person you could ever know. He is funny. If my mom and I have a disagreement, we would stop. Let's call Botham. Let's see what he says. He just loved people. He was very particular of the company he kept.

So I felt that he was not in harm's way. Botham was in his apartment watching football, eating ice cream. And the officer came in and killed him. To know Botham was to love Botham. The world has lost a great man. He was destined for greatness. Botham was everything to us. I just can't do without him being there.

I look forward to the day Both of them would have gotten married, having kids. Life is not sweet anymore. Yeah, what I hope to see happening is that our Black boys are not seen as a threat. The color of my skin can be perceived as a weapon, and it's not. What has happened to Botham

should not happen to another family. I started the Botham Shelf Foundation. We have to continue where Botham started and just keep his legacy going for years and years to come. Why should there be hatred for each other? My young son demonstrated forgiveness. Brent forgave one who just killed his brother. There are things that must be done and must be done quickly.

We must change this all around. Here was a tweet sent out by Jamel Hill. I think I remember someone named Colin Kaepernick taking a knee to protest the police killings of unarmed black people and being blackballed, I use the word whiteballed, from the NFL because of it. I had to have been dreaming, right? Lauren, what the hell was that?

I have no idea what that was. If they want to do something real, hire some black coaches and put some money in the pockets of African-Americans who, I mean, this is an 80% African-American league, and you want to do a PSA, that's cool. It has nothing to do, my comments have nothing to do with Botham John or his family or anything like that. But that's not a tangible, okay?

That's something that is just a window dressing, sort of feel-good thing that makes these people at the NFL feel good. But when it comes to something real, like, you know, employing Colin Kaepernick or other black folks in positions where they're making millions of bucks on the sidelines, controlling the game and controlling who comes on the team and who the assistant coaches are, all of a sudden they're vacant on that. So I'm not interested. I mean, it's nice that they did it in terms of a human aspect. Again, I'm not saying this in mean, it's nice that they did it in terms of a human aspect. Again, I'm not saying this in any... It's not a reflection on both of John

and what tragically happened to him, but they should be doing something a lot more tangible than that. The billion-dollar sports league. Um, Pam, what's bothersome here is... OK, NFL, you put out a PSA. Did with the Botham Jean case. Anything about the good works of Philando Castile? Anything about the life of Rekia Boyd,

who was shot and killed by a cop Dante's servant in Chicago, who got away with murder? Anything about Ayanna Jones, the black girl in Detroit who was killed as she laid in the bed when the cop alleges his gun just accidentally went off when somebody bumped into him? How about the elderly black woman in Atlanta

where the cop stormed her house and shot and killed her? I mean, we can go on and on and on. So really, who is the NFL trying to play with this PSA when they're still whiteballing Colin Kaepernick? Well, let's be honest. The basis of the whiteballing of Colin Kaepernick is not just one fold. It's twofold. It's not just that he was willing to protest the treatment of African Americans in our country and the injustices that they face, but he was also willing to defy ownership and leadership in the NFL. That's really a big part

of why he is still out, is because they don't feel like they can control him. And he is such an influential voice to people all over the world, but especially young black men in this country, that they want to see contrition from him. They want to see him say, yes, I'm going to play by your rules and do things your way. That was what the whole tryout was about, was that they were going to set it up

and it was going to be their way. And whether or not he actually got a job out of it, they wanted to see that he was going to do it their way. And he did not do that. And so, again, I think that's the basis, that's the nexus of his willingness to speak out, but also to do it in his own terms. And I think this PSA was really an effort by the NFL to say, hey, we got the point. You know, we understand Black Lives Matter, too. And hey, we got the point. We understand Black Lives Matter too. And so then we're not bad.

And I think that's the only way that I can contextualize doing that and doing it that way. And I think that that's maybe some feedback they got from Jay-Z to say, you need to prove that you're getting what Kaepernick was getting at. But Kaepernick wasn't just getting at the fact that Black Lives Matter. He was getting at the fact that black lives matter. He was getting at the fact that he has the right to express that as a grown man in the United States.

Malik, are you fooled by what the NFL is trying to do here? I think fooled is really I wouldn't actually use that word. I'm going to disagree slightly. The NFL is doing what we would like for the NFL to do. If Colin Kaepernick was playing, I'm pretty sure that no one would have a problem with the ad. Part of the challenge for me here is even, you know, even as we discuss this, is that everything is centered around Colin Kaepernick. So if the NFL does something, then we have to say, but you didn't hire Colin Kaepernick. So if the NFL does something, then we have to say, but you didn't hire Colin

Kaepernick. I actually agree with Lauren, and we talked about it on your show. You've been talking about it for several weeks now. As far as the leadership in the NFL, you know, who's, you know, the front office team, you know, whether or not there are many of us, who, the number of us who are going into these spaces, I do believe that that's something that the NFL should focus on. But I don't think that because Colin Kaepernick, one person, is not playing, then that totally, you know, it doesn't validate everything else that the NFL is doing. What we should also realize is that it's not just Jay-Z. You know, the actual Players Association have been involved in pushing the NFL on some of these issues.

So we really shouldn't just, you know, and I know we're not just being overly critical here, but we really should acknowledge that there are NFL players who are pushing the NFL to do this because this is what we wanted them to do. I get it. Colin Kaepernick is not playing. Colin Kaepernick probably will never play in the NFL again. But if we, if these are the things that we wanted the NFL to do and the NFL does those things and then we say, well, you didn't hire Colin Kaepernick. I mean, well, no, they didn't. But they're doing every other thing that people want to do. But, Belly, it's called, Millett, it's called calling out hypocrites. It's called exposing people.

But what if they do? One second, one second. One second. It's called exposing people for who they are. It's saying, oh, you think that we're so dumb that we somehow don't understand that what you're doing is you want to show how you care about this story and this family when you, the owners, got upset and you are continuing to keep one particular player out

because he dared to start a movement protesting the very type of things that led to the death of Botham Jean. That's why Colin Kaepernick name is going to come up. And not just that he was white ball initially, that he is continuing to be white bowled by the NFL. That says you are a hypocrite. I totally get that and I totally get the fight for Colin Kaepernick. But let me ask you this. If Colin

Kaepernick were playing and the NFL came out with this ad, how would you feel? Would you still feel that there was a joke that they're trying to take advantage of us if Colin Kaepernick were playing? No, no, no, no,'re trying to take advantage of us if Colin Kaepernick were playing? No, actually, no, no, no, no, excuse me. If the NFL, if Colin Kaepernick was on an NFL team and the NFL released this PSA, I would not be calling them hypocrites.

Right. I am calling, let me be clear. No, no, no, let me be clear. I am calling them hypocrites because they are continuing to whiteball someone who protested the very type of thing that they are discussing in the PSA. Totally get that. Unfortunately, Colin is the martyr in this situation. Unfortunately, Colin is the martyr.

He was the one who put his neck out there and he got chopped off or however you want to characterize it. But there are plenty of other people, Eric Reid and others in the NFL, who have continued to do what Colin did. I get it. Colin is not playing. But here's what you're missing, Malik. Malik, here's what you're missing. What you're missing is that

Eric Reid is a defensive back. Kenny Stills is a wide receiver. Malcolm Jenkins is a defensive back. Kenny Stills is a wide receiver. Malcolm Jenkins is a defensive back. The quarterback position, out of all of the positions on an NFL football field, the quarterback position is the one that is closest identified with ownership. The quarterback position, the quarterback position is a special, it is

a completely, it is treated totally different than any other position on the football field, and that's why Colin Kaepernick is still out there. Lauren, go ahead. But actually, they're not really discussing anything in that PSA. That's like a flowing

biography thing that has nothing to do with police brutality or any of that discussion that they don't want to have and they don't want to confront. And that was the problem with Colin Kaepernick, right? He was confronting the issue of not only racism, but, you know, police brutality, which they don't want to have any discussion of that whatsoever in a league that's 80% black male

where you have that issue disproportionately impacting that particular demographic because the bottom line is they don't really care about anything about other than the fact that these guys can make them billions of dollars other than that they just want to want them to shut up and entertain and that's what that is so they just put out just some flowing biographical thing with his mother talking and and that has nothing to do really with the thing that Kaepernick was talking about and that's why he's so dangerous not just because of course Roland you're right because he's a quarterback in a prominent you know obviously a prominent field position the number one field position that you have in football but he was

confronting something they don't want to talk about, period. And every time he knelt down, they had to think about that. So what did they do? They got rid of him. And really, these players, I think they don't realize really the power that they have because they could stop the whole thing. The whole money train would stop if just maybe 100 of them decided, you know what, we're not playing on Sunday. Now what are you going to do about it?

But, Roland, and Lauren makes a very good point, but I really want to stress this point, that there are players in the NFL who are doing those very things. There are players in the NFL who they are pushing the NFL to do things like this.

So we can't ask for it, and then when they do it, we say, well, Colin's not playing, so I'm not going to like it. But pushing the nfl no no no no that is not no okay you just sat here and went you just went nuts because what no mellick you're wrong you just sat here talking about what pam what pam just did oh she didn't quote you no what i am saying is this when you as an NFL are continuing to whiteball a player who dared to raise the consciousness of people on these type of issues, and then you release this PSA, you are continuing to be a hypocrite because you are purposely keeping him out. Two things can be true at the same time. Pam, I know you want to make a comment. Go ahead, Pam.

I think that Lauren is exactly right. I mean, at the end of the day, there may be a whole bunch of players in the NFL who have taken up this cause in various and sundry ways. But they're not the ones that Donald Trump said, you know, fire the SOB and get them off the field. They weren't the ones who were being attacked directly. And so it's a symbolism. I mean, let's just be honest. This is very much symbolic. And the NFL, by holding out Colin Kaepernick and doing so in a coercive way, let's not forget that he won that arbitration. And we don't know the exact dollar figure, but the estimates were upwards of $60 million from the NFL for colluding and keeping him out of the league. He won that case. They're working together to keep him out because they know how symbolic it is.

So we can't pretend that it's not symbolic. We can't pretend that that isn't the intention. As you mentioned and as Lauren mentioned, very good points, which is, you know, he'd be the field general of his team, and that is precisely what they don't want. They don't want a field general of that visibility confronting that issue that way. All right, folks, I've got to go to this story right here, the last one before we leave, and that is a Ball State University professor called the cops on a student who declined the teacher's request that he move desk during the middle of class. Here's what took place. Are you in this class? Yeah. What should I talk to you about?

I'm just asking you to sit here. Did you want to sit here? Yeah, that's fine with me. But you said I'm not going to. My laptop is on the table. Do you want to sit here or you want to leave? No, if he says he's here, that's fine with me. But you know I'm not going to leave.

I do whatever I like to. Alright, do you want to sit here or you want to leave? Why am I moving in the middle of class? He legit stopped the class to try to move me. I've been back here on this PowerPoint. Are you being dreamt of in the class? No, I'm not going to leave. I'm going to sit here.

I'm going to sit here. I'm going to sit here. I'm going to sit here. I'm going to sit here. I'm going to sit here. I'm going to sit here. I'm going to sit here. I'm going wanna sit here or you wanna leave? Why am I moving in the middle of class? He legit stopped the class to try to move me. I'm getting back here on this PowerPoint. Are you getting dreamt of in the class? No, I'm not doing that.

No, no, no. The whole damn class is here. It's cool, it's cool. He's been on the lesson the whole time. You know what? I'mma leave. He's been on our work the whole time with a plug on. I got some stuff to hold.

He hasn't done anything wrong. He has something to work. He's done the PowerPoint. He's done the... You ain't gonna never talk. You messing with the board. What I do is you let your whatever name is take it up with the dean. Hey, it's gonna be a little bit of a mess. All right. Even though the student, Sultan Benson, was not being disrupted, the professor, Shaheen Borna, stopped in the middle of a lecture to ask Benson to move his seat.

He gave him the option to either move or have the police call. Ball State President Jeffrey Mearns called the professor's call to police a gross error in judgment. What? Pam, what? What the hell? Defiance. It's defiance. That is that is the essence of so many confrontations that we see between people who either have authority or think they should have authority and their inability to get, you know, an African-American person or a young person or a Latino person or whoever they can't get them to comply and so they call the police to enforce their authority and they and the only reason they do that is because they simply cannot stand the idea of their authority

being challenged and thwarted that's what's going on here I don't think it's more complicated than that he didn't have you know at the end of the day what would have happened if he had just let it go and let the guy sit where he was sitting? What would have happened? Nothing. But he would have had to swallow the pride of having his authority challenged and not being able to back it up. And that that's really what, so he calls an officer, right? And we've seen so many things on Twitter rolling by now. So many examples of people confronting black people in places they don't think

they deserve to be, they shouldn't be, they're sleeping in the wrong place, they're picnicking in the wrong place, they're selling lemonade. And every single time the answer's the same. Call the cops, enforce my authority.

I don't get this. I don't get this, Lauren. You go into a classroom, it's open seating, there's no assigned seating, and you stop a lecture. No, no, no, Lauren. You go into a classroom, it's open seating, there's no assigned seating, and you stop a lecture. No, no, no, you move here. No, no, you move here.

The saddest thing, Roland, about these things that we see is how small people's lives are. That it comes down to, I have to have this moment of control so badly that I have called armed law enforcement to waste their time on nonsense. And what it shows you is that I just think that a lot of people just live these like

really boring or really small lives where that moment of control and power has to be exercised. That becomes like the thing, you know. It's embarrassing. And this guy is like a marketing professor that has an MBA that's supposed to be some expert in PR. And he's too stupid to realize that there's going to be somebody in the class filming this. I really appreciate the voices in the background of that video defending the guy that didn't want to move. But it's just so stupid that people, you know, that their lives are so, I guess, boring or whatever, that they got to bring everything to these weird moments.

And really, social media has sort of opened a window into how small people's lives are. I mean, you can't catch yourself and say, hey, wait a minute, this is not really a big deal. The guy gets to sit back. Like, who cares? You know? But it's amazing. It is amazing. Malik, now is the time. I really want to see a video where a cop goes,

you call us over this bullshit? Right, right, right. We got real stuff happening. We got real stuff happening. You know what? No, I'm serious. I'm serious. Here's the deal. If you file a false police complaint, you can get charged.

Right. I'm sorry. If somebody calls the cops on some dumb bullshit, this is where the cops should hit your ass with. I'm like you. Right. And it should be. And what law did I violate? You called me on some stupid shit.

Right. So you getting a ticket. I just. I mean, some of y'all are like, OK, why are you cussing? Because I'm sorry. This is you call two police officers. Right. Because a student wouldn't switch desk.

Yeah. Right. Malik, final comment. Go ahead. Yeah. I, you know, I'll co-sign what Pam said. You know, this is, this was a challenge to his authority and that's really what this was about. Whether he would have done it if the person were black or white or Hispanic, I think that this is an issue that's specific to this guy. His authority was challenged. As you said, there is no assigned seating in class. So the notion that somehow, for one, that he asked him to move is already bad. But then you call the cops, and I don't know if they were campus security, but either way, an extension of law enforcement is what they were. I'm actually going to go back and look and see, because I would be interested in the cops' reaction, like if there's like a later reaction, because to me, it seems like

those cops, you know, they weren't those rogue cops who were coming in, you know, trying to pull them out of class or something. It seemed like, and at least based on the response from the class, that they may have seen that this was actually some BS. I think that, and not particularly with law enforcement, I think that the school should actually hold that professor accountable for that because he ended up causing a disruption while trying to call the cops to remove a disruption. It's a stain on the university. It's a stain on their program. And I think that the school itself,

and I don't think that the professor should be fired. I will say that. I don't think the professor should be fired, but the school should definitely take some type of action because what if other professors decide to do this other, you know, this same thing? They don't like someone sitting in a seat, so they're going to call the authorities

in order to get that person removed. It's ridiculous. It's BS. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's total BS. It's total BS. All right, folks. Okay, folks, end of the show, but I got one more announcement on Sunday. I will be on ABC This Week with George

Stephanopoulos in New York City. I'm speaking tomorrow here at the University of New Mexico, and I'll be flying from here to New York City. So check your local listings because ABC This Week comes on at different times in different markets. We want all of y'all to watch. Set your DVRs. Record it.

Share it. Y'all know I'm going to bring the funk when I'm on the show. I always do. And so let's blow those numbers out so we can bring our Roland Martin unfiltered audience to ABC because y'all know, meet the press, face the nation. They don't call a brother. So thankfully, ABC does. And so you know how we're going to do.

And so I'm looking forward to having a conversation with George Stephanopoulos and the pound. That's this Sunday on ABC. So check it out. Also want to thank all of you who support our show. First of all, thanks to our panel today, Lauren Mellick, as well as Pam. Thank you, Tamika Mallory, for being one of our guests today with Until Freedom.

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If you have contributed and you do not see your name, simply send me an email and we'll get that rectified. All right, folks, I will see y'all on Monday. I'm going to try to live stream my speech tomorrow at the University of New Mexico. I don't know what the Wi-Fi situation is going to be in the room. We're going to try to do that. And so looking forward to that. And if I don't do that, I'll see you Sunday on ABC and I'll see you Monday right here,

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