#RolandMartinUnfiltered - 5.18 Activists, rights orgs demand justice for Taylor, Arbery; Rev. Barber: Resist unsafe reopenings

Episode Date: May 22, 2020

5.18.20 #RolandMartinUnfiltered: Activists, civil rights orgs demand justice in #BreonnaTaylor and #AhmaudArbery cases; Will AG Barr to prosecute the Arbery case as a hate crime? Does policing need to change amid COVID-19 pandemic? Rev. Barber says resist unsafe reopenings; Health and fitness tips to help you enhance your mental as well as physical well being during lockdown + A look at ESPN's "The Last Dance' Support #RolandMartinUnfiltered via the Cash App ☛ https://cash.app/$rmunfiltered or via PayPal ☛https://www.paypal.me/rmartinunfiltered #RolandMartinUnfiltered Partner: Ceek Be the first to own the world's first 4D, 360 Audio Headphones and mobile VR Headset. Check it out on www.ceek.com and use the promo code RMVIP2020 - The Roland S. Martin YouTube channel is a news reporting site covered under Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. self. Self-love made me a better dad because I realized my worth. Never stop being a dad. That's dedication. Find out more at fatherhood.gov. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English.

I'm Greg Lott. And this is Season 2 of the War on Drugs podcast. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This kind of starts that a little bit, man. We met them at their homes. We met them at their recording studios. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them.

It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, folks, Roland Martin here. Today is Monday, May 18, 2020.

We're going to start the show off like we normally do. We're going to go right to this interview here with the mayor of Louisville, Kentucky, who joins us right now with regards to, of course, the death of Breonna Taylor. This has been a huge, huge issue that we have been dealing with all across the country. And so the mayor's office reached out to us, and so we're going to talk to Mayor Greg Fisher right now. Mayor, welcome to Roland Martin Unfiltered. Roland, thanks for having me.

Sorry, we had some technical difficulties here. Mics didn't work, so a little hard for how to start the show, but we're good right now. First and foremost, this story has obviously put Louisville on the national page as well. What was your initial

reaction once you heard that Breonna Taylor, who EMT worker, shot and killed in her own apartment, and the person the cops were looking for was already in custody? Well, the first thing I think about, I'm a father of four children, so I think about how I would feel in a situation like this. And Breonna was a Louisvillian. She was an EMT. She was a daughter. You know, her mom obviously is heartbroken and the entire family. So that was my first reaction to this. And, you know, this was

one of several warrants that were being served that evening. And obviously, this case did not, or this situation did not go out like it was intended to. And it's a real tragedy for our city. And the fact that one of the complaints from folks there, Black Lives Matter, Louisville, and others, is that

it took people having to make lots of noise for this to become a story. Was it handled properly when it initially happened, in your estimation? Yeah, our practice here, and we're one of the leaders in the country on this, within 24 hours of any officer-involved shooting, we have a press conference. And so we had our first press conference on this on March 13th. Of course, that's when the coronavirus started going all over the country. So I think that contributed a little bit to people not thinking about this. Now, a PIU investigation also starts immediately. Those normally take two to five months. So we're at that stage right now. And so the case will be going to the FBI,

the U.S. attorney and the attorney general this week. I think we need additional eyes on this beyond our police department here in Louisville, because I mean, the issue to me is that the facts need to come out. The truth needs to come out. People need to be as confident in that as possible. And that's why this additional level of review is important. What new public safety measures have you and others announced in the wake of this death? Well, a couple of things announced today, as a matter of fact. One is the issues around no-knock warrants and whether or not they should be allowed or not. But beginning immediately, any no-knock warrant will have to be signed off by the chief of police

before it goes to a judge for them to sign off on it, just like they did in this case for probable cause. The second is LMPD was one of the leaders with body cameras in the country. I'm a big believer in transparency and police community legitimacy, but undercover agents do not use body cameras. Effective immediately, if you are executing a search warrant, you have to have a body camera on. And then third was we're getting the latest best practice on police and civilian review to see if the commission that we have right now can be enhanced. So those are three things I announced here today. Those are obviously all critically important. What do you want people in Louisville and across the country to know with regards to

this? A lot of people, of course, other cases that are taking place across the country, folks don't necessarily have lots of trust in cities. You've got the Laquan McDonald case, where the mayor and the city fought even the release of that video. And once it was released, people found the truth out. That officer ended up going to prison. So what do you want people to understand what you and the city is doing? Well, number one, it's all about getting truth and getting justice. And so that's why I've asked these additional federal partners to take a look at it in the state AG. Number two, I talked to white Louisville and white America in particular, is they need to understand the broader context of this. Brianna's situation was a tragedy. But for black America in particular, this

is another traumatization and another reminder of this unequal dynamic between law enforcement and communities of color that in my view started over 400 years ago when the first ship of enslaved people came here and went through slavery, Jim Crow, voter suppression, red line. It goes on and on and on. So this is bigger than just one case here, and it really calls out to this country that I hope it's been accentuated by this pandemic, Roland, that there has to be major structural systemic reform in America

for everybody to feel like they've got a connection to a bright and hopeful future. And if anything can come out of this tragedy, that's my prayer. And also, last question, you're the incoming president, U.S. Conference of Mayors. I've worked with previous presidents before, of course, Mitch Landrieu, Kevin Johnson, and others. What do you hope that the U.S. Conference of Mayors will do? Will these mayors be able to go back to their cities and put things in place before a tragedy happens, and also to get police departments to understand that,

look, this is about their safety and the public's safety because it's called to protect and serve the public. Now, to me, it's all about police community legitimacy, and if the community doesn't think the police are legitimate, then they're not. And so this is an ongoing process we've been working on for years with Lean Into Louisville and our Synergy Project. So fortunately, we don't have to start from scratch on this. But U.S. Conference of Mayors is a great collection of mayors that pull all of our best practices together. My goal would be able to take this tragedy, create a new model for the country so every city could enhance their police community legitimacy. Mayor Greg Fisher, we

certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot. And we'll certainly welcome you back on the show anytime. Okay. Good seeing you, Roland. Thank you very much. I want to bring in my panel right now, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeaver, a leadership strategist, also Eugene Craig, CEO of the Eugene Craig Organization, and Patrice Peck, Speak Patrice Presents. And so, first off, I'll go to you, Avis. The fact that what you just heard the mayor describe there is, frankly, rare in these instances. Typically, what you have is you have mayors who are standing behind their police departments. You have a union who are stepping behind.

For the mayor to say, no, undercover, body cam. I think those things are critically important that also builds trust with the community that they don't think is going to get swept under the rug. It is absolutely essential. And just as you said, this is far too rare a response and reaction. Normally, there is a little bit of, well, well, we'll have to see. And, you know, definitely with a nod towards the police and the police unions, quite frankly, it's just very interesting that this mayor is really centering the citizens who elected him, which is exactly what all mayors need to do. And now let's hope that we carry that out to the fullest extent in terms of getting justice for this unjust death and quite frankly, murder.

Eugene, again, I think what often happens with the public is that, look, you don't have that trust. You don't have it in police departments all across the country. The places where you have not seen major flare-ups is where you do have police chiefs or mayors who have the kind of relationships with African-American leadership as critically important. Absolutely, absolutely. And what people have to understand is that in this country,

all these incidences are, one, compounded on the backs of centuries of negative situations with the police. And the mayors that get it right, the police chiefs that get it right, they get it right because they're in a community. They get it right because they have the relationships built. They get it right because they establish trust above everything else. You know, and places where you see that, you know, you see flare-ups and you see, you know, protests and demonstrations, it's because, you know, the lack of trust

is reinforced by actions and activities by the police department. Patrice, when you hear the mayor say they need another set of eyes, that is important. Oftentimes what happens is you have police leaders, police and city leaders who fight the state or the feds coming in to look into their department and their practices.

This, to me, is what should happen, where you have leadership who says, you know what, we're too close to this. We need somebody else who can give an honest, unvarnished opinion. Mm. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm a journalist and I'm here today because I launched Coronavirus News for Black Folks. It's a newsletter centering on the coronavirus and how it directly impacts the black community.

And so part of what I've been doing is just going across all the different publications and just gathering different news stories. However, of course I come across, you know, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, and I noticed that stories like these were getting buried because the pandemic was the number one news topic. However, this directly applies to our communities. And so it was very, you know,

just another example of how the black community right now, we're not only facing one pandemic, we're not only facing the coronavirus pandemic, we're also continuing to face, you know, police brutality and police violence, among many other things. Well, and the reality is these stories have gotten buried because coronavirus is the dominant story. When you've got more than 90,000 people who have died thus far, it's as if cable news can't cover more than one story at a time. We certainly could cover more than one story at a time, but that's sort of how this news system works. Same thing, I think, when you look at the Ahmaud Arbery case as well, Avis. Absolutely. And unfortunately, too often, the quote-unquote mainstream media sidelines those

issues that are critically important to the African-American community. And that's why independent platforms like this is so important, because we don't have to wait for other people to cover those news and those issues that are important to us, we can cover it ourselves on our own platforms. But it's certainly good that we continue this push and push it up and push it out louder. Because until we get to a point where we uncover and make very plain everything that's going on in terms of the brutality that we face in many of these cities, oftentimes those localities will just let these issues continue to be swept under the rug, and there is absolutely zero chance at justice. At least when we raise a loud voice, we can take a closer look

and encourage others to take a closer look and hopefully be able to get that justice that had thus far been denied. Eugene. Sorry, I was muted. I agree 100% with Avis. Look, I mean, all of this comes back to the trust, comes back to the trust. And we saw it actually, a perfect example, when in the situation in Dallas, right, you know, we saw that, you know, we saw how the police chief was able to calm things, you

know, because there was a certain level of trust there. If you can, you know, compare it and contrast it to, you know, the Freddie Gray situation in Baltimore where, you know, there has been a lack of, there has been a lack of trust for forever. And, you know, you saw the uprisings that happened. Absolutely. All right, folks. And last, we with the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights,

joined with 113 other civil rights organizations and releasing a letter asking for the Department of Justice to get involved in the case of Ahmaud Arbery. Now, all kinds of different things have been happening over the weekend. New York Times actually put together this video, piecing all the information that we have together to show what actually took place.

And based upon their video, Ahmaud Arbery actually was hunted down. It was a really, it was a very strange video to see that, to see how they tracked all of the various movements, if you will, involving Ahmaud Arbery, what took place, where the people were at those times. So let's do this here. I'm going to try to pull it up in a second.

But first, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go to Becky Monroe. She's the director of Fighting Hate and Bias Program with the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. Becky, when you look at this very issue here in terms of what has happened, all these conflicting stories, the bottom line is this here. These three DAs are culpable here, especially the first two.

The fact is they were not trying to actually pursue justice. They were operating more as the defense attorney. Now we're hearing that the police told the homeowner whose home was being built if he had any issues to call Gregory McMichael instead of the cops. Would he make a bad new development? I mean, I have to tell you, that's why we at the leadership conference

called not only for a hate crimes investigation into the murder of Ahmaud Arbery, but also for a pattern or practice investigation of systemic constitutional abuses into the way that the local prosecutors in the police department handled this case. So it's just as you said, the complete dereliction of duty for over two months when there was undisputed evidence that these two men were involved in the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. We think that plus a longstanding and many local advocates across Southeast Georgia have been raising these concerns for a long time about a pattern or practice of systemic

constitutional abuses on the basis of race by these pro-local prosecutors as well as the police department. So I think, you know, as we see more and more information coming into the public domain, we feel like our call for a investigation, again, not only into the hate crime, but also into the handling of this case is well warranted. Explain to folks out there who don't understand the distinction between a hate crimes investigation and a murder investigation. So we, again, we're looking, we're calling on the Department of Justice to use a number of statutes. Under the hate crime statute,

we are calling on them to investigate the murder of Ahmaud Arbery under a statute that says if you target someone for a violent hate crime, in this case, when they killed Ahmaud Arbery on the basis of race, that that is a violation of multiple federal statutes, including the Matthew

Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act. So we are calling for an investigation of his murder against those two defendants under that statute. We are also calling for an investigation of the law enforcement agencies here. And when I say law enforcement agencies, I mean the police department, as well as the local prosecutors that were involved in this case. And as you mentioned, the way that this case was handled and, you know, we even just with the publicly available facts, the fact that for again, for over two months, these two men, we had undisputed evidence that they, as you mentioned, they stalked and killed Ahmaud Arbery, were permitted to, you know, there was no warrant issued for their arrest despite the fact they had the video.

So we think those are the, so that's why we're calling for an investigation under these two different statutes. All right then, Becky, we certainly appreciate it. Where can people, again, they want to follow the leadership Conference is doing, where can they get more information? So they can come to learn more about our work at our website at www.civilrights.org. I would also encourage you, because of the extraordinary work of local advocates, the NAACP of Georgia specifically, as well as other advocates in southeast Georgia, we know they've been leading critical work as well. But again, if you want to follow more of our work, it's www.civilrights.org. All right, then. Becky Monroe, we appreciate it.

Thanks a lot. Thank you very much for covering the story. All right, thank you very much. Folks, this is the video the New York Times put together constructing the final 12 minutes of a Marlboro's life. Watch this. All right, so we're having some issues with the sound, so let me go ahead and... 219 Satilla Drive is...

I'm going to pull that back, so I want you to actually see this. I'm sure you saw the news about Ahmaud Arbery. It looks like murder. The American public saw the video. What exactly happened in the last moments of Mr. Arbery's life? Using security camera footage, cell phone video and 911 calls and logs, the Times has reconstructed the critical 12 minutes

from when Mr. Arbery appeared on Satilla Drive to his death less than 300 yards away. It's around 1pm on February 23rd when Armoured Arbery is out, less than two miles from his home. A security camera at 2.19 Satilla Drive is recording when Mr Arbery enters the frame at around 1.04pm. He may have been jogging in the area, but he stops on the front lawn of 220 Satilla, a house being built across the street. Arbery glances around and wanders into the open construction site. Inside, security footage briefly captures him looking around. Meanwhile outside, a neighbour walks from Jones Road towards Attila Drive and calls 911. The neighbour waits by the street corner.

He will later tell the dispatcher that Arbery resembles a recent trespasser in the area. On multiple occasions before February 23rd, several trespassers were caught on camera at 220 Satilla. The owner routinely alerted the police. On four occasions, what appears to be the same man was filmed. It's unclear if this was Arbery, but even if it were, this does not justify his shooting by neighbors outside on the street. The site's owner says nothing was ever stolen from the house during these incidents or on February 23rd, and no property was ever damaged. We're having some technical issues here, so let me try to go ahead and get that taken care of. Let's see if I can go ahead and get this. This is obviously stunning when you look at this video and look at what it details. Let's go back right to it.

Let's see if we can get it working. And calls 911. The neighbor waits by the street corner. He will later tell the dispatcher that Arbery resembles a recent trespasser in the area. On multiple occasions before February 23rd, several trespassers were caught on camera at 220 Satilla. The owner routinely alerted the police. On four occasions, what appears to be the same man was filmed. It's unclear if this was Arbery, but even if it were, this does not justify his shooting by neighbours outside on the street. The site's owner says nothing was ever stolen from the house during these incidents or on February 23rd, and no

property was ever damaged. But neighbours were aware of the trespasses, and the community was on alert. Now, back to the day in question. It's 1.08pm, and Arbery is walking around inside the house. Four minutes after he entered, he walks out and runs off. He's running right now. There he goes, right now. Okay, what is he doing? off. In the top corner of the security footage we can see down the street to 230 Satilla, the home of Travis McMichael. At 1.10pm, Travis and his father Gregory grab their guns, jump in a white truck and leave the house to pursue Mr Arbery.

We don't have footage showing the next three minutes, but testimony Gregory McMichael gave police at the scene and interviews by another witness, Roddy Bryan, indicate what happened. Gregory and Travis McMichael follow Arbery onto Burford Road. Their neighbour, Roddy Bryan, sees the pursuit, gets in his car and follows. The McMichaels try to cut Arbery onto Burford Road. Their neighbour, Roddy Bryan, sees the pursuit, gets in his car and follows. The McMichaels try to cut Arbery off. Arbery doubles back and passes them. Bryan tries to block Arbery, but Arbery runs past him and toward Holmes Road. Gregory McMichael climbs from the cab to the bed of the truck, armed with a handgun. We don't know exactly what happens next, but Bryan and the McMichaels end up following Arbery on Holmes Road, and we next see Arbery at 1.14pm running

back down Holmes Road, away from Roddy Bryan and towards the McMichaels. Roddy Bryan is filming, and a warning, these scenes are distressing. Gregory McMichael dials 911 at this time. 911, what's the address of your emergency? I'm out here at Satilla Shores. There's a black male running down the street. Satilla, where at Satilla Shores? I don't know what street we're on. Stop right there!

Stop! Sir, hello, sir. Let's watch this back and break down what happens. This is Arbery. He has been running from the vehicles for almost four minutes. Travis is standing by the driver's side of the truck, armed with a shotgun. Gregory is in the bed of the truck on the 911 call. Arbery doesn't know where to run.

He veers right, then left, and then darts around the right side of the vehicle. Arbery comes around the front of the truck. We see his white T-shirt through the windshield. And here is Travis, now leaning toward him. This is the instant the first shot is fired. Arbery is hit in the chest. His right lung, ribs, and sternum are injured. The two men wrestle over the gun.

Gregory shouts. Travis! Arbery punches Travis. In the back of the truck, Gregory drops the cell phone. A second blast goes off, out of frame, but we see the shotgun smoke here. Arbery is heavily bleeding. He throws another punch. Travis fires a final shot, which hits Arbery in his left upper chest.

Travis walks away, holding his gun. Gregory gets off the truck, clutching his.357 Magnum. According to the police report, Gregory rolled Arbery over to see if he had a weapon. He did not. Police officers arrive within seconds of the shooting. And a minute or so later, at 1. p.m police officer or minshu reports two subjects on holmes road shots fired male on ground bleeding out the police took gregory mcmichael's testimony and let the two men go but now the mcmichaels both face serious charges

again that was a video report that was put together by the New York Times. That is, it is certainly stunning to watch. Not only that, I was looking today at this story in the New York Post where, talk about gruesome, the daughter of one of them. Here's the post right here, folks. This is unbelievable. Let me pull it up. Just one second. The sister of

Lindsay McMichael. Okay. She's the sister of Travis McMichael. She actually posted a photo of a dead Ahmaud Arbery on her Snapchat page. This is a story of the New York Post.

This is what she said. Lindsay McMichael, I had no nefarious or malicious intent when I posted that picture. She told The Sun, And of course, the Arbery family, first of all, Lee Merritt, family attorney, calls it deeply disturbing. I'm sorry, Eugene, Patrice, and Avis. You post the photo of Ahmaud Arbery right after it happens because you're a true crime fan? It's an indicator of the dehumanization that was exhibited in this entire deadly and disturbing and, quite frankly, demonic episode.

The fact that he was chained and tormented and was trying to run for his life for like five minutes and then was trapped by these two unlawful pursuers, to say the minimal thing, before he was murdered in cold blood, only to be completely you know how those 2 murderers come go home that night.

Is astounded so the fact that that happened. You know to have the sister of the murder murder then show his dead body not also wondering where she get the picture from like who took the picture was this a trophy that someone shot to be able to gloat over after. They're really is no word. For out inhuman that and as the mother of a 24 year-old you're full.

Brilliant black young man. It absolutely infuriates me because I see that and I know it could have been my child. And the fact that they treated him with such ill regard to his very humanity is not only infuriating, but what makes it worse is that the quote-unquote law enforcement goes on about their way and their day as if nothing happened. It shows you that there are two forms of quote-unquote justice in America. And apparently, the general form of justice

that's supposed to be available to all Americans is not available to African Americans. And we see this time and time and time again. It is just absolutely infuriating. I'm just... Patrice, I guess for me, this action shows what kind of family we're dealing with. That you will go to the scene,

take a picture of this man's body, and you will go, hmm, I'm going to post it to Snapchat. Yeah, I mean, it really is just a reflection on, again, the dehumanization of black people in America. It's really interesting the role that social media has played in this whole incident. As we mentioned earlier, it really seems that actions have been taken only because that video was leaked and because, honestly, black

Twitter had such a huge backlash and called for action to be taken against the two men and for a deeper investigation to happen. And now that this Snapchat photo comes out, it's just yet another example of how in today's modern day with social media and our digital devices that the black community, we're able to have more grounds to call for this action. And it's unfortunate that we, that these sort of things need to happen in order for action to be taken. But, you know, I think it says a lot.

Look, I think in the case here, what you saw, this reconstruction, Eugene, this reconstruction by the New York Times is critically important because it exposes all of the lives of the people involved. And in fact, the man who actually shot the cell phone video was trailing. And the crazy thing is,

Gregor Michael leaked the video thinking it was going to help him. The crazy thing is those DAs were already helping him. So let's just be clear. Thank goodness he leaked it because that video is what led to his arrest. If that video does not get leaked, Gregory McMichael and Travis McMichael are not in jail. I agree 100% with you. Without the video, you don't get the outrage.

To the original point, homegirl had an oh shit moment. She thought that she was sharing this being cute X, Y, and Z. Got caught, got exposed, and now has, you know, let me reach and try to create some false narrative of why I did it. You know, there's no true crime fan that would, you know, think it's cool or cute or anything to share a photo like that. Secondly, I agree 100% with you. Without that video getting leaked, we aren't here having this conversation right now, point blank, period. Well, it is absolutely stunning, you know, that we're dealing with this.

And I just, the crazy thing to me, again, to this whole deal, is the fact that if the video doesn't get released, these DAs covered up for the McMichaels. Now we're hearing some cops said, oh, don't call us, call Gregory McMichael. Other cops testified. Other cops, the Glen Allen Police Department cops said that they said, according to two commissioners,

oh, we want to arrest them on the spot, but the DA said don't. I mean, this is what we call small-town justice. This is, it is corrupt. It is a cover-up. You do not have an effort to seek justice, and this is what black people are always saying, that we got to raise hell, yell, kick, and scream in order to actually get justice. And that's the case here. And so, and in fact, the DA, the second DA, George Barnwell, who constructed this whole narrative,

that narrative actually is going to be used in court because they will help them. So I don't know what's going on there. I'm getting lots of feedback, guys, from one of you. So please, I don't know what all that noise was. We're getting lots of feedback, guys, from one of you. So please, I don't know what all that noise was. We're getting lots of feedback, so let's check into that. Let's go to folks. He's the co-founder for Center for Policing Equity.

He's the co-founder and CEO, Dr. Philip Atiba Goff. And let me know when Goff is actually on, folks, because what we're also seeing here is that you look at both of these cases, Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, in terms of how police are responding to the public. In the case of Breonna Taylor, lawsuit had to be filed in order for more information to come out.

Story then goes national, pressure being put on. Ahmaud Arbery, New York Times has a story. We cover it. The family is pushing, pushing, pushing. Finally, the video gets leaked, and you have this response here. What people need to understand, I want to go to Dr. Goff here,

is that the real issue here is that the public simply does not have the trust necessary that police are going to properly investigate their own when they are doing wrongdoing. Well, Roland, that's unfortunately exactly right. In these situations where you have law enforcement, especially when they're caught on camera doing things, that even if they might be within the regulations of the law enforcement guidebook, they're not what anybody would consider to be right. If you haven't built up the public trust, then you can't be trusted by the public to then decide whether or not you've done right, you've done wrong.

The public is seeing something that they feel like is outside of their values, and the public doesn't trust you to then share their values. I got to say it's also really important that we understand this is the seed of where compliance with the law comes from. You can't have compliance with the law if you don't have trust in it. It doesn't begin with fear of it. It begins with trust in it. It is

still mind-boggling in that now we have the conflicting stories in the Mount Arbery case. Some cops say we wanted to arrest on the scene. DA wouldn't allow it. Now we're hearing there are text messages between police officers and the owner saying, hey, you got any problems with your house, don't call us.

Call Gregory McMichael. That explains a whole lot. They saw Gregory McMichael as an extension of the police department, as a law enforcement officer, which for him gave him the right to say, I can pursue who the hell I want to, grab our guns, let's go get them. Yeah, and you have this complicated history where, you know, the elder McMichael here, because you have a father and son, is retired law enforcement and had spent time in the DA's office, right? So I don't know how you be more law

enforcement than you were the folks who were supposed to catch criminals and then the folks supposed to prosecute them. You also have a history with this individual who allegedly was let go from law enforcement, or at least he was not permitted, I should say, wasn't permitted to continue making arrests because he couldn't follow the rules for reasonable use of force, right? Still, within a community, if you know your officers, right, in a community that's community, if you know your officers, right, in a community that's small enough, you know officer friendly over there, right? An officer unfriendly over there, someone retires and they're still carrying their badge and their gun and

someone's saying, call them if you have a problem, then yeah, you have folks essentially engaged in vigilante justice or vigilante versions of justice. We saw it in Sanford, Florida. And when folks advocate responsibility for equal justice, it gets out of hand really quick. So what, from the public standpoint, what does the public do? Well, if we're talking about in the particular case in Georgia, you can demand that there is a third party investigation. It seems clear to me that there is grounds to ask. Maybe there's a civil rights violation going on here. And so we want folks to come in. We want DOJ to come in and do this. This is, by the way, what happened in Fort Worth when we had the terribly tragic Tate Jefferson shooting. The

interim chief said there is enough from what I've seen that I'm concerned we shouldn't be the only ones investigating ourselves. We're going to ask the federal government to come in so that we have the legitimacy in the face of the public we're supposed to protect. So residents can demand for that. You can also ask for civilian review of this, because it's not the case that law enforcement should ever be above and separate from the people. Robert Peel's principles that set up law enforcement in general, there are nine principles.

Number seven is the most important one. It says the public are the police and the police are the public. So if you don't have any civilian input on this, then the argument can be made, I don't have trust in law enforcement, I don't have civilian input, I've got an occupying force. I don't have law enforcement and public safety. So those are two obvious things in this particular case. Beyond that, there's a lot of this stuff we know how to do. We know how to make law enforcement police in ways that garners the public trust, right? We know how to engage in

community policing. We know how to engage in trainings that the folks in the community are the leaders of, that help to get at both old-fashioned racism and new fashion. We got the explicit, we got the implicit bias. We know how to give that to law enforcement in a way that allows them to lead on garnering trust as the first most important thing. It's not just through consent decrees, it's through collaborative reform between law enforcement and justice nerds like us, you know, nerds coming out of DOJ, coming out of the FBI, and coming out of the community. And if law enforcement wants to lead, those tools are now available to them to measure not just crime, which is what the FBI and the Uniform Crime Report

require, but to start measuring justice and holding themselves accountable to those same values. My hope is that we will see more of that, especially as public safety and public health become more obviously intertwined. All right, Dr. Philip Ativa-Goff. Michelle, appreciate it, man. Thanks a lot. Thanks, man. All right, folks, let's switch to what's happening with the coronavirus. Here is the update in terms of where we are. 1.53 million cases of COVID-19 in the United States. 90,263 people have died from coronavirus, 347,000 people are responding. Now what's interesting is Donald Trump, in his attempt to switch, change the news cycle, which I think that's what he did, he announces that, oh, he's taking this hydrochloroquine, this drug, this, this,

this, this, this drug that he's been touting somehow could be the miracle drug. This is what he said today in his round table. But I get a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy. And I say, hey, you know, the expression I've used, John? What do you have to lose? Okay, what do you have to lose? I have been taking it for about a week and a half. At some point, every day, I take a pill every day. At some point, I'll stop. What I'd like to do is I'd like to have the cure and or the vaccine,

and that'll happen, I think, very soon. And you have no symptoms, sir? Zero symptoms. No, I haven't had any. No, I tested. I test every couple of days. They want to test me, you know, for obvious reasons. I mean, I am the President. So they want to test me.

I don't want to be tested, but they want to test me. So every couple of days, I get tested. And I've been — I've shown always negative. Right? Negative. Is that the term you use for this? Right. Negative. Totally negative. No symptoms. No nothing. But no, I take it because I think I hear very good things. Again, you have to go to frontline workers. Many frontline workers take it and they seem to be doing very well. First of all, let me just cut to the chase why what you just heard is bullshit. Okay? No one in their right mind

is going to take a drug, a dangerous drug that has significant side effects if you're not showing any symptoms. Now, here's what we know. We know that his valet has tested positive for coronavirus. We know that Katie Miller, Pence's press secretary, has tested positive for coronavirus. She's married to Stephen Miller, one of his top domestic policy aides. If y'all actually trying to get me to believe

that, oh, he's taking it, no. This is Donald Trump trying to move the conversation. Here's a video of Dr. Rob Davidson, who posted this video on Twitter soon after this announcement. Listen. that he does not understand medicine or healthcare and certainly doesn't have your best interests at heart, this statement and the fact that he's taking this drug should be everything you need to know. The FDA recently issued a warning

that this should not be used outside of hospital settings because of the risk of death. We know that patients with lupus depend on hydroxychloroquine and when President Trump was toning it in March, that they ran into shortages. Now, if someone on lupus who takes it all the time runs out of this drug, they can suffer from kidney failure and life-threatening blood clots. And so President Trump is not only putting those people at risk by touting this drug again, announcing that he's taking this drug against

the advice of doctors, against his own White House doctor advice. This hurts those patients and potentially hurts other people who will start taking the drug to try to prevent it or when they have mild symptoms that could be from COVID-19. Recently, we know there is evidence popping up that there are increased deaths with hydroxychloroquine. And we know that there is no evidence that this drug works. None. The study, quote, study out of France was completely flawed. Any data that has existed has been debunked. We want it to work. We want something that works, but we know that hydroxychloroquine isn't it, at least not yet. And the president is being reckless in his announcing that he's taking it and then taking it in the first place. We in the healthcare field need to

come out with one voice against the use of this drug, against the advice of this president, knowing that he is going to put more people in harm's way. Be safe out there. Please stay home. Please observe social distancing and wear masks when you're in public. And above all, listen to health care experts, not the president. Eugene, he's lying. Eugene, you cannot convince me that the FDA issued that warning

and his doctors would allow him to take this drug. He's lying. What he is doing is trying to get the folks off the focus of the fact that 90,000 people have died and we may very well

hit 100,000. CDC is saying we're going to hit 100,000 by June 1st. We may hit 100,000 by Friday. Yes. The thing is this, right? He's either lying about one or two things. He's either lying about taking a drug or he's lying about either contracting COVID- let him willy-nilly take this drug like he's taking a daily multivitamin. This drug is not some kind of preventative panacea against

coronavirus. It's a very dangerous drug. It's a drug that has very dangerous side effects. And for somebody to be the president of the United States, you will want to think, especially of his age and the risk categories that he falls well within, that you want to think that he will want to avoid any kind of risk that could put his life at risk and our country at risk. a White House doctor is going to let a 73 year old man who's sitting in the office of President of the United States take a drug that they have said do not administer unless you're in a hospital. We know he's playing people. He's

playing them and he knows it because here's what we also know. When he went to the doctor in December, they have not been honest about his health reports. We know that. They have not been honest about his health reports. We know that. They have not been honest about his medical records. And so, okay, you want us to believe that? Bring the White House

physician, have them stand in front of the media and answer questions for two hours with regards to this process. How long has he been taking it? How often is he taking it? What's the dosage? All of that. I think Donald Trump is lying again. Absolutely. That or where the heck is the war on drugs when we really need

it? Because this is supposed to only be available via prescription. And so if he has not gotten a prescription, how did he get the drug, right? He would have only gotten it illegally, which means that he's a drug user and needs to be in jail, number one. Number two, I think that his, but I do believe that it's a lie, number two. And I think it's a lie because this is his constant pattern of deflecting. However, I think he's deflecting not just from the, you know, apparent numbers that we just saw, over one and a half million people infected that we know of given the paltry amount of testing that we have in this country. Over 90,000 people dead that we know of because we only can count those people who were tested and positively as having died from that disease, right? I think he's also looking to deflect from the fact that we just had his whistleblower testify, his latest whistleblower,

he's had so many, his latest whistleblower testified in front of Congress last week and then just last night on 60 Minutes. And one of the things that this whistleblower blew his whistle about was the dangerous nature of this specific drug and the fact that this administration was spending so much money to stockpile it when there was no evidence that it had any sort of relationship to actually being able to cure or help this disease at all. In fact, he was arguing that basically this administration's main priority was to put money into the pockets of their corporate friends. And this was just one example of it. And so what he's doing is he's trying to, once again, make the media say, you know, look at me, cover me,

and cover my ridiculous clown show over here, while the real news that you need to be covering and blowing the alarm on somehow gets swept under the rug once again. Patrice, the phrase, he's lying, is trending on Twitter right now. One of the top tweets trending because he is lying. And not only that, everything Ava said, let's also remember he fired the inspector general in the State Department on Friday, late Friday night,

who was investigating Mike Pompeo's use of AIDS to wash dishes, walk his dog, get his dry cleaning, which you're not supposed to do. That's what's going on here. No doubt about it. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I want to just reiterate what Ava said about how this is just a distraction.

Um, and a lot of media is falling for it right now. The main business model for media, whether it's television or especially digital media, is to get eyeballs in order to, you know, get ad clicks and whatnot. And so I've heard people say, you know, why are we still covering these particular, you know, areas of misinformation? Why are we giving him a platform? And that is something I entirely agree with. I think, you know, between the fact that we don't have the coronavirus task force press briefings anymore and that we have so much misinformation. It's oversaturated at this point and has been for a very long time. I think we really need to hold the media accountable in terms of the opportunities

and platforms we give this man to disseminate this misinformation. But here's why you have to cover it, because the problem is this here, okay? When the president of the United States speaks, people are gonna cover it. And the reality is, they're going to be people. We saw what happened before. When he touted this drug,

the people who have lupus who were impacted by this drug were freaking out because they were saying, you know, we're running out of supply. What's gonna now happen, he throws this out here, this is gonna happen again. When he's not like a fool, he was disinfected and

there were people who were literally calling and ingesting disinfectant because this nutcase said it. And so Donald Trump is actually a, he is a danger to the public when he speaks. And so we have to say, don't listen

to the idiot in chief, because he's lying. That's why I played the video that doctor was saying, do not listen to the president because he's lying. Right, and I do think that, just like the doctor said, that medical professionals, they do need... they need to also be given the platforms to disseminate their information.

Because, you know, Trump is getting a lot of it. He gets clicks. they need to also be given the platforms to disseminate their information. Because Trump is getting a lot of it. He gets clicks. Media companies are profitable because he gets a lot of traffic. And I do think the medical professionals also need to receive this amount of attention. Well, that's one of the reasons why we've had

more than 80 experts on this show for those very issues. Joining us right now is Derek Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP. They released their study talking about the impact of COVID-19 on African-Americans. Derek, when you have Donald Trump, Derek, there's no doubt about lying. He's lying. I don't know. Look, I don't have high blood pressure. I don't have hypertension.

But do you think I'm going to take a high blood pressure medicine to say, well, I'm going to take this to prevent it from happening? Man, come on. You know, he is the master of distraction. One of your other guests mentioned that he's trying to distract from something else. The fact that we will have 100,000 people to die of this pandemic. The fact that this was completely a man-made reality that he created. The fact that we have an economic system

that's in chaos right now with the highest unemployment than we have seen in recent memory. The fact that there is no clear pathway out of this, there is no cure, there is no prevention other than social distancing. And as soon as this pandemic received a black face, southern governors and conservatives started saying, let's open up the economy. You know, he said, what do you have to lose? Obviously, everything, everything, not only the black community, but just our whole system is right

now in ruin. And for us, we cannot get distracted on his foolishness, his lying. We must be focused on November to make sure we remove him and all of his ilk out of office so we can right-size where we are as a nation. Of course. What is the study that you guys released? What does it show as relates to African-Americans and COVID-19? It's tremendous fear. People are in fear. We are very clear that they are looking for advice from experts, public health experts. They don't trust this president. They don't trust the system that he's referring people to. And so we know as we continue to prepare for November, we're using this information so we can have the right type of approach for our community

and so they can have informed decisions. We have a problem. We are in the midst of chaos. Any Republican in private would tell you that. Any individual would tell you that. And we have not seen the worst of it because when state and municipal governments began to look at their budgets and the lack of tax receipt, we're going to see another wave of economic disaster. And, of course, they're now touting, of course, opening up.

Here you have in Montgomery County, Alabama, they're opening up, but their numbers are going up. Texas, they're reopening up. Their numbers are going up texas they're reopening up their numbers are going up and so we have no choice but to tell black people hey don't follow those fools protect yourself you know it is it is unfortunate that uh some in our community are not paying attention it's unfortunate some people in our community are so vain they can't wait to get back to the nail shop barber shop andhop, and beauty salon. And, you know, I think George Wallace had the best joke. If you are concerned about your makeup,

hair, and nails, the funeral home parlor is waiting for you to get you situated. And that's what we're confronted with now. The underlying issues that have impacted our community for many years, the fact that we have not had a true public health system to support many people across the country is coming home now and is showing up in a way in our community that's having a disastrous impact on top of the fact that we are the essential worker pool. We are contracting this virus not only because some of us are ill, it's because we have to go to work every day. We are the individuals in the grocery stores, public transit workers, and all of the essential work that's required to keep this economy moving. One of the things that we also, again, are dealing with, these after effects. As we look at what's happening here, as we look at folks, again, reopening, businesses are very concerned what's going to happen. We're also dealing with these people

who are acting a complete fool and how they are berating and treating essential workers. I've seen a number of videos of white folks just losing their mind. But not just that, it was a brother who had a machete who went after a couple of people, Matt, about the lockup as well. And so beyond the coronavirus,

you've got these people who are just acting a complete fool and who are verbally, in some cases physically, attacking people who are just trying to do their job. You know, we will always see, and as history has shown us, in time of economic insecurity, people begin to act strangely. Some of their true selves come out.

And that's what we're seeing. We're seeing individuals who simply cannot handle pressure. For African Americans, we understand how, you know, trouble don't last always. That's one of the spirituals that many of us saw growing up. And so we're going to see our way through this. But for others, this type of economic instability, this kind of public health period, create a level of foolishness that's dangerous not only to

our community, but to the stability of this nation. Derrick Johnson, President and CEO of the NAACP, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Just a word. Just encouraging people to sign up. We got to focus on November. We are done dying. It's a

hashtag that we are rolling with. We need volunteers in the target areas because if we increase Black voter turnout by 1-3% in our target areas, we will guarantee that we remove this cancer out of the White House and begin to address the systemic problems that confront us.

Continue to do what you do. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, and I agree 100%. Thanks a lot. Folks, got to go to a break. When we come back, we'll talk to Reverend Dr. William J. Barber about the Poor People's Campaign, how they are trying to keep people to stay inside and stay alive.

Also, The Last Dance, the ESPN 10-part documentary detailing the Chicago Bulls' final season, finished airing last night. We will talk with carry champion David Aldridge as well as Mark Jones, three folks who were there on the inside covering what took place in Michael Jordan's run, especially the case of David and Mark Jones.

So looking forward to that conversation. Plus, Fit Live Win Monday. Got, of course, Doc on helping you out when it comes to fitness tips. A whole lot more to do right here on Roller Mark Unfiltered. Back in a moment. You want to support Roller Mark Unfiltered? Be sure to join our Bring the Funk fan club.

Every dollar that you give to us supports our daily digital show. There's only one daily digital show out here that keeps it black and keep it real. As Roland Martin Unfiltered, support the Roland Martin Unfiltered Daily Digital Show by going to RolandMartinUnfiltered.com. Our goal is to get 20,000 of our fans contributing 50 bucks each for the whole year. You can make this possible. RolandMartinUnfiltered.com.

All right, folks. RolandMartinUnfiltered.com Alright folks, the Poor People's Campaign they're urging resistance y'all, or non-cooperation with state plans calling for the reopening of the economy just weeks after the coronavirus we've had this lockdown. Now here's a new slogan on the Poor People's Campaign. It is called

Stay in Place, Stay Alive, Organize and Don't Believe the Lies At the moment we're going to talk to Reverend Dr. William J. Barber, of course, with repairs of the breach as they're working on the Poor People's Campaign. This really is important to Avis because as I was just talking about

with Derek Johnson there, this is about our lives, our safety. And you have these people, in fact, there was a Washington Post story that was done where this one guy said, white guy, he says, well, you look at the areas and demographics, I'm not concerned about getting coronavirus. He basically saying black folks are largely getting this. I'm good. Absolutely. And quite frankly, I don't think he's

the only one who feels that way. It's just very interesting to me to see how a lot of these, quite frankly, these red states have been addressing this issue. States where they are experiencing a huge concentration of disproportionate impact of this disease or this virus on the black community specifically as well as on brown communities. And it seems to me that those states especially were super duper quick to want to open up places like Georgia, places like Florida. And I just have, I personally believe that that has a lot to do with it. I really believe that people are looking at the numbers and seeing how we were disproportionately impacted.

I think a lot has to do with the fact that we are those people who do serve in these high-risk essential occupations that pay little or nothing. And so we are bearing this brunt of this particular plague right now. And I believe that some high-ranking folks, when they took a look at that and kind of saw who was dying disproportionately, they thought, why not just open up? We really preference or we value the money that we could make by opening up a whole lot more than we value those lives that would be lost if we were to stay closed. Patrice, I mean, look, I totally understand folks have to get back to work. We are essential business. We've actually been working throughout

this entire deal. But the reality is this. If you are essential business. We've actually been working throughout this entire deal. But the reality is this, if you are a business owner and you can't guarantee the safety of your people and you don't have things in place, even when dealing with the customers, you're putting the lives of your employees, the lives of your employees' families on the line. Yeah, I mean, Black people right now especially,

we are in a catch-22. Not only in America, but throughout the diaspora. It's, you know, we're in a position, do we support ourselves and our family? Or do we potentially catch coronavirus, right? So yeah, the same way everyone's been saying, when white America catches a cold, black people catch the flu,

it's applied to everything, including recessions and depressions, right? So when white America goes through a recession, black Americans go through a great depression. And so we really do need to, just like we're doing on the show now, call more attention to the disparities in terms of like who's getting the loans,

who's getting the PPP. Black businesses simply are not. It is certainly not a good thing. Let me go to Reverend Barber. Is he ready? I am. All right, Reverend Barber, glad to have you on the show. This campaign, I think, I mean, you nailed it.

Went about staying alive, what you guys are calling, again, stay in place, stay alive, organize, and don't believe the lies. Look, you hear this idiot today talking about he's taking this drug, which he's not, okay? No one takes a drug by saying, I don't have anything. I think he's trying to change the story. I mean, their actions are

showing they don't care about the people who are most vulnerable. Oh, exactly right. And that's why all over the country and the poor people's campaigning, you know, we're everywhere from the mountains to the delta. We're saying, look, stay in place unless you absolutely have to do something. Stay alive so we can keep fighting for what's right.

Organize. Use the time at home. We're asking for 100,000 people to jam the phones on Thursday and Friday, Wednesday, Thursday, to Pelosi and to McConnell demanding a real rescue bill. And then don't believe the lies. Why would you believe governors that have already lied about tax cuts, already lied about voting fraud, already lied to us about health care? A lot of those governors, the ones that are saying go out there, they're the same ones

that blocked the Affordable Care Act. And so, you know, this is lethal. I think your guests have got it right, Roland. You have this is lethal. I think your guests have got it right, Roland. You have, this is lethal. This is nothing to play with. And what we know is, we have a study now doing, we're looking also at zip codes and income, not just

race. Because, see, the other side of this is, it's black people dying high percentages, but then it's poor black and low wealth people. And we're also finding the case up in some of the way back up in the mountain, poor white folk who don't have access to health care, who have pre-existing conditions because of those things.

This is a sick reality, man. Too many people are too comfortable with other people's deaths. And they act like the choice, Roland, is between living and your job. That's a false choice. What we should do is open up right. If you're going to open up, open up right. Everybody have health care. Everybody have the masks they need. Everybody have the tests they need. Everybody have the sick leave they need. Everybody have the things they need. We could do that. We didn't do all of that. So it's like,

we're not going to do what we're supposed to do, then we want you to go back into the economy and risk your life. It's foolish, and we ought not participate in it. If it wasn't for this virus, we would be in the street marching, right? If this was without the virus. So we need to do nonviolent civil disobedience by staying home. And we

certainly don't need to be out there with those nuts with guns like, they act like they can shoot the virus. You know, we don't need guns and flags. We need masks and health care and living wages and sick leave. That's what we need. Well, remember, this is the same person, Donald Trump, who actually floated the idea of dropping a nuclear bomb on a hurricane. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. That's right.

And also something about some bleach, chlorox, and some stuff going inside your body and something about shining light inside your body and something about shining light inside your body. Yeah. But see, but also, now I'm going to make it, some of your folk may get mad at me, but that's all right. I love them anyway.

See, I don't just blame Trump. I blame that black surgeon general when he stood up there beside Trump a few weeks ago and suggested that black folk were catching it more because they were drinking, doing drugs and smoking. See, when he did that and he called the name of the NAACP several times like he had a license to do it. Well, I'm on the board. I hadn't heard that. But but but to say that and he should have been challenged everywhere for doing that, because basically what he was laying a premise down, that if these folk are dying, it's because of their lifestyle choices. Not because of historic racism, not because of the inequities, not because of the lack of access.

Therefore, that's setting up a paradigm that, oh, it's the folk that do that that are dying. And that's those folk over there. And if we are not doing that, we're okay. That's old, Roland. That's a theme that's been used for years. We tried that with dysteria. They blamed that on the Chinese folk. The swine flu, Woodrow Wilson blamed that on Spanish people.

Cholera, they blamed that on people from India. That's old, man. That has a deep, ugly history. And he should have been jacked for that by black community. But I don't care if he is black. He set up a premise. I was just reading today where the health director, he was talking to something in the group and he was laying out the preconditions

and then the reporter challenged, I think it was Trapper who challenged it. He said, oh, no, no, no. I'm not blaming them. I'm just saying that certain people's lifestyles make them predisposed. That's not lifestyle. That's not our race. It's racism. Absolutely. It is.

I mean, it's crazy what we're seeing. But the thing that also that I keep saying to people is like, look, we're used to having rallies, marches going door to door. But the reality is the same work that requires you to go door to door, you cannot pick that phone up. You can be mobilizing,

organizing through social media. I mean, that's just going old school. Old school was phone banks. Phone banks where they called people. Guess what? You called 20 people in your circle, you your own personal phone bank. Isn't that how we organized in the old day roller

when we did voting organizing? Ella Baker basically built the NAACP in the South in a phone booth with nickels. So on our campaign, if you go to our site, poorpeoplescampaign.org, we actually lay out a whole toolkit of what you can do. First, we want people to help do these massive calls because we still don't have a bill. I mean, the bill is better, but how in the hell can you have a pandemic and not guarantee people health care? I mean, that's just, I think, I don't know who it was the other day to ask the question, well, do you expect us to change the health care system in the middle of the pandemic?

Well, didn't you change slavery in the midst of slavery? Didn't you change Social Security and labor rights in the midst of the Great Depression? Didn't we have to change Jim Crow in the midst of civil rights in the midst of Jim Crow? You change things when they need to be changed. And so we say and call, but then we say, let's call and see who's registered to vote. Let's call and encourage people to register to vote and then help us organize for June 2020, when we're going to have thousands upon thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. But we're going to have this mass Poor People's Assembly, Moral March on Washington, a digital gathering.

And the people that are going to be lifting up their voices and showing their face are poor and impacted people, low-income people who are saying we're sick and tired of this. We're not going to be silent anymore. We're going to present before America this group of folk that are coming together across all of the lines that separate us. And, Roland, I want you to know, because you and I talk real, I have no interest in just doing a march or a gathering.

That's nothing, or having a big speech. No, no, no, no. This is an assembly because we have done the numbers, and we have found out if you register 5 to 15 percent of poor and low-wealth people in this country around an agenda, not a personality, but around an agenda, And then they examine candidates based on that agenda. You can fundamentally shift the political calculus across this country. And lastly, Roldan, I want to mention this to you. It just came out last week in a study from Harvard that in a few months, we're going to have 13 million more people added to those uninsured.

13 million more. And 40% of the people that make under $40,000 are losing their jobs. And we're going to have an exponential number of increased what we call the new poor. So as we move into the political season, poor and low-income people are going to be the base that we must organize to expand the electorate. And that's real. And that's why we gotta do it from Alabama to Appalachia. Reverend Dr. William J. Barber, we surely appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

God bless you, man. Take care. All right. Thank you very much. Final comment from you, Avis and Patrice. At the end of the day, mobilizing, organizing is the same whether you do it on social media, whether you do it door-to-door, whether you do it by phone. Uh, uh, final comment from you, Avis and Patrice. At the end of the day, mobilizing, organizing is the same whether you do it on social media, whether you do it door-to-door, whether you do it by phone. Bottom line, it has to happen.

And the only way to beat Trump is you have to out-mobilize, out-organize, and out-vote the opposition. Patrice first, then Avis. Yeah, I agree. We have the platform, like I said earlier. We have social media. We have the opportunity to digitally mobilize. I will say I think it's important and more effective to raise awareness through, you know, sharing factual information as opposed to, you know, shaming those of some of us within the black community. I think that's very important, especially with the younger generation.

But yeah, I agree. You know, we are stronger in numbers. We always historically have been. So now is the time to mobilize and we can't do it in person because we are a vulnerable group and community right now with the pandemic going on, but it's definitely important for us to do so digitally.

Avis? Absolutely. And there is no demographic, I believe, that's more digitally savvy than the Black community. I mean, what would Twitter be without Black Twitter, for example? I mean, we understand how to mobilize online. And right now, if ever there was a time to mobilize as if your life depended on it, it's now, because literally it is. We have to move every

stone possible to make sure that this homicidal megalomaniac is voted out of office on November 3rd. All right then. Patrice, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Folks, going to a break. We come back.

The Last Dance, ESPN's 10-part documentary on the Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan. We'll talk with three sports journalists who were there watching as it developed, getting their thoughts about the doc, but also settling some of these issues that have revolved around Jordan's activism, whether or not he was a bully,

and did he push folks too hard? We'll talk about it. Kerry Champion, David Aldridge, Mark Jones of ESPN. Up next on Roland Martin Unfiltered. You want to support Roland Martin Unfiltered? Be sure to join our Bring the Funk fan club. Every dollar that you give to us supports our daily digital show. There's only one daily digital show out here that keeps it black and keep it real.

As Roland Martin Unfiltered, support the Roland Martin Unfiltered daily digital show by going to RolandMartinUnfiltered.com. Our goal is to get 20,000 of our fans contributing 50 bucks each for the whole year. You can make this possible. RolandMartinUnfiltered.com. All right, so a lot of y'all are always asking me about some of the pocket squares that I wear. Now, I don't know. Robby don't have one on.

Now, I don't particularly like the white pocket squares. I don't like even the silk ones. And so I was reading GQ magazine a number of years ago, and I saw this guy who had this pocket square here, and it looks like a flower. This is called a shibori pocket square. This is how the Japanese manipulate the fabric to create this sort of flower effect. So I'm going to take it out and then place it in my hand so you see what it looks like. And I said, man, this is pretty cool. And so I tracked down, it took me a year to find a company that did it. And so they make these about

47 different colors. And so I love them because, again, as men, we don't have many accessories to wear. So we don't have many options. And so this is really a pretty cool pocket square. Now, what I love about this here is you saw when it's in the pocket, you know, it gives you that flower effect like that. But if I wanted to also, unlike other, because if I flip it and turn it over, it actually gives me a different type of texture. And so, therefore, it gives me a different look. So there you go so if you actually want to uh get one of these shibori pocket squares we have them in 47 different colors all you got to do is go to rolling this martin.com forward slash pocket squares so it's rolling this

martin.com forward slash pocket squares all you got to do is go to my website uh and you can actually get this now for those of you who are members of our Bring the Funk fan club, there's a discount for you to get our pocket squares. That's why you also got to be a part of our Bring the Funk fan club. And so that's what we want you to do. And so it's pretty cool. So if you want to jazz your look up, you can do that. In addition, y'all see me with some of the feather pocket squares. My sister was a designer. She actually makes these. They're all custom made. So when you also go to the website, you can also order one of the customized Feather Pocket Squares right there at RolandSMartin.com forward slash pocket squares.

So please do so. And, of course, it goes to support the show. And, again, if you're a Bring the Funk fan club member, you get a discount. This is why you should join the fan club. All right, folks. One of the individuals who I was going to call to participate in our last dance discussion was Roger B. Brown. Roger B. Brown was, go to my iPad, please. Longtime sports journalist in Dallas-Fort Worth, worked at the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, did the radio show Talking Sports with Roger B. Brown.

I've had him on my News 1 Now show, had him on this show as well. Last week, though, I got a phone call. His sister told me that he had suffered a stroke. Friday was his 61st birthday. He had celebrated his birthday on Friday, was in rehab, and probably about an hour and a half before we came on today's show,

his sister Alicia called me to say Roger passed away today. Again, great, great guy, very dear friend of mine, great sports journalist. Everybody who came through Dallas-Fort Worth, folks, they came on his show. Again, we worked together at the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. He covered sports all across the country with various newspapers. A native of Mississippi, somebody who was very proud of Mississippi. You could tell by that deep Mississippi accent. And it is certainly a huge loss.

He also was my fraternity brother, Alpha Phi Alpha, Roger B. Brown, 61 years old. And so I'm certainly going to miss B, miss his infectious laugh, miss all the conversations that we had. Matter of fact, I was live on the show Thursday. I called him before I came on the show, didn't get him. He called me during the show. I texted him and said I was live. I called him when the show was over.

Didn't get a chance to connect with him. I called him again Friday. He had some serious vocal issues because of the stroke. And again, his sister said he was getting better, but he did leave me a voicemail on Thursday thanking me for reaching out to him after suffering that stroke. And so he had so many friends

all across Dallas-Fort Worth in the country. And again, it was two or three weeks ago, I said, man, I need to get B on the air to talk about this here. And unfortunately, did not get him to do it. And so today he passed away at the age of 61. And so, surely condolences go out to Alicia and the entire Brown family. And, of course, he will be more than likely.

And his son, Ryland, as well as longtime girlfriend, Jocelyn. So, again, condolences go out to my man, Roger B. Brown. Folks, last night was the conclusion of the ESPN 10-part documentary, The Last Dance, chronicling the Chicago Bulls' 98th season, winning their sixth title. This was a trailer. I'm sure most of y'all already seen it,

but this is the trailer of The Last Dance. Look at that. That's waterproof color right there. That's waterproof. Our biggest challenge is us. I am cursed this mentality of competitiveness. Competition is an addiction. Every day was a battle. Dennis, get up here!

Boom. They don't hear it, see Dennis for 48 hours. No matter what we did, it seemed like it was a story. Scotty was being selfish. When the trust is broken, it's sort of shocking.

I never hated Scotty. Six championships in eight years. We were the greatest team ever. What time is it? Game time! I'm gonna ridicule you until you get on the same level with me. That man get a free ride with me. It was his team.

My mentality was to go out and win at any cost. At some point, the team is not gonna meet the expectations. I like the way you think. What time is it? Game time! Not a good day for Michael Jordan. Pivot is now demanding a trade. The expectations are certainly high.

Come on, come on, think positive, man. In the postgame locker room, the word I heard most was adversity. Have you learned to deal with that yet? Take it easy, guys. The only question, how long can it last? The most famous man on the planet is here. Okay, everybody. What time is it? Game time. Obviously, millions were captivated by the documentary. Looking at the ratings, joining us right now is Mark Jones, ESPN NBA announcer.

David Aldridge, longtime sports journalist. Of course, he covered the rise of Michael Jordan for so many years as well. In a moment, we'll be joined by Kerry Champion, of course, formerly of ESPN. I want to start with you, David. You're in the documentary. Mark is in it. He looks the same today as he did in the 1990s. He hasn't changed a bit.

That must be what happens when you live in Miami. But David, you contributed a lot, but what did you learn watching this that you didn't know? Roland, first and foremost, let me just offer my condolences to Roger B. Brown's family. I was on

Roger's show so many times. I'm so sad to hear that. Roger was a good dude. We covered the league together when he covered the Mavericks. And I covered the Bullets back when they were the Bullets back then. So, Roger, just a good, good dude. And I'm so sad to hear that.

So, sincere condolences to his family. In terms of what did I learn? I mean, honestly, I don't know that I learned very much, Roland. I knew, I mean, when you're around the NBA, you hear all these stories. Was there something in 10 parts that you went,

oh, I didn't know that. Well, again, I forgot some stuff. That's just getting old. That's just getting old. I forgot something. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about how crazy Rodman was.

Right. You know, skipping off to go to Vegas for a couple of days and then just skipping a practice during the NBA finals. Right. That was crazy. To do a wrestling event, you know. So I had forgotten those things. So it was just more evidence of how crazy that last season was

for Michael Jordan and the Bulls and Phil Jackson and everybody, for sure. Mark, first of all, what was awesome was that they granted these cameras that much access. And the reality is, it's hard to tell these stories without having that level of access. People, you're not recounting their memories, but to be able to have, yeah, the video of,

all right, Rodman, is he coming to practice after the whole Vegas deal and all of that. I mean, it was just crazy watching it, because I'm sitting there going, because again, let's be real clear, I'm born and raised in Houston. I didn't give a damn about the Bulls. Okay? So,

Roland wasn't following Chicago and Michael Jordan like everybody else. So, it was just crazy to go, that really happened? You touched on it, Ro. It's like you said the word access. And I remember back in the early 90s, and David will probably echo this too, I remember going to the old Chicago Stadium during those finals. And Michael's locker would be one of the first ones as he went into the Bulls locker room

and you could sit there and you could chat with him and you could chop it up a little bit and and find out what was on his mind for that day and before the game and you know it's it's when I look back now at the way we do things now a little bit in the league it's a little bit different and but that access to that magnitude of a star in the game was really something that is phenomenal. When I look back on it now, I'm like, geez, I can't believe that we were able to just walk up on him like that. And he liked to be able to interact that way. And now it's a little bit different. You know, some of the players nowadays, they'll hang out in the trainer's room for the first 42 minutes of media access and come out

for the last two and boom uh that's it but in terms of what i learned that was one thing and another thing probably was just what a great connector phil jackson was you talked about rodman taking off for a wrestling show in the middle of the finals and welcoming him back into the fold and to be able to handle the different uh egos and personalities and do it and phil was so unique and in the way that he did it with his i remember bulls players telling me about the meditation sessions they would have when phil would turn the lights off and he would walk into the locker room with incense before practice and create the right vibe with his incense. I mean, this dude was just different,

and it brought it all back. It was great to see and hear again. David, I think we, one of the things that, I look at documentaries a little bit differently than I think a lot of other people. First of all, I'm looking at how it was crafted, how it was edited. I'm looking at camera shots,

things along those lines as well. But also for me, I wasn't just also looking at this from a perspective of just, oh, my God, Michael Jordan, the greatest, and his basketball talent. It was really taking what you were hearing and say, how can you apply this to other businesses and other industries?

And when you hear the author of the book who talked about that Michael operated in the moment, that was a meditation type thinking in terms of how he operated. When Mark talked about Phil Jackson, how he sort of took these spiritual elements to sort of lead this whole team together. To see that over these 10 parts was just stunning and how it worked.

Well, to Mark's point, I mean, Phil was a great catalyst for that whole kind of Zen Buddhism kind of approach to living in the moment, not thinking about tomorrow, not thinking about yesterday, but concentrating on today and what you could do to be good today. And so to me, like Roland, Michael's demands on people to me are no different than the demands all of our best teachers ever made on us.

I remember my eighth grade English teacher because he said, this isn't good enough, David. I remember my 10th grade history teacher because he said, this isn't good enough, David. You know, and so that's what we all remember, the people that challenged us, that told us we could be better than we thought we could be. And Michael was no different from that. He was no different from a great conductor who is demanding of the fourth cello. He was no different than Duke Ellington demanding greatness from his orchestra or anybody. So that, to me, is not something that anyone should fear. You should embrace that because if the best person at what they do for a living sees something or sees enough in you to tell you, you can be better than you are.

Why would you run away from that? I don't understand why you would run away from that. I would think of that as an incredible vote of confidence that they care enough about me. Jimmy Johnson, the great coach of the Cowboys, used to say, worry about me when I don't talk about you, when I don't yell at you, because that means I don't care about you anymore.

And that's what the great ones do when they see potential in you. You know, Mark, it was very interesting watching it because I tweeted a couple of those things out. And as I listened to what folks said about Jordan, and so I think back to places that I've run and folks are like, oh, you're too hard.

You know, why are you pushing folks so far? And as I listen to Jordan, I think what people... And I think the problem is that people go, oh, that's cooler than sports, but anywhere else. But the reality is, when you are that type of person, you see things totally different than anybody else. And actually, you're trying to... He wanted to win titles,

but also I think he was trying to push himself to say, what level can I personally get to that you may not even understand? And some people are perfectly cool saying, I'm going to be right here. He's like, no, no, no, no. You can actually go here. And if I don't push you there,

then we're not going to get there. And if I don't push you, and then you don't deliver, well, then you can't help me get to the goal that I'm trying to get to. And I think for people to say, Mark, oh, bully, and you were mean, and you were just too hard, I guarantee you there's not a single Chicago Bull who who don't mind saying y'all see this ring yeah yeah i don't i don't remember any of his teammates at the time um complaining about how much they were pushed by michael ike and i think

you know roland and david one thing maybe in the documentary that in essence that they might have overlooked or maybe not totally captured in that was you know there were guys that occasionally did push back at michael and i can remember it wasn't just about stuff on the court i remember ron harper telling me a story about uh michael shortly after coming back from uh his uh stint with uh baseball in birmingham and they were on the bus one day and they would they would do the dozens with Michael as hard as he would come at them and Ron Harper one day stood up on the bus and yelled out to the guys of the bus hey Michael what's this and he flashed two one two

one and Michael said I don't know Ron what is that he said curveball inside baby you can't hit that i know that they would go back at michael i think more than things were maybe told in that documentary and i think michael was the catalyst he he pushed they pushed back and together it pushed that bulls crew in those three years forward towards those championships and i don't think that like you said there's many guys that were opposed to that because there was good chemistry on that team. It is still stunning to me, David, to think about people, I think about Jerry Krause,

I think about who are so hell-bent on credit. I mean, seriously, I think, I mean, look, the way I roll is, man, look, you win, we win. I win, we win. But this whole, and I wouldn't be surprised because you heard it a lot, he was short. Jordan ripped him all the time for being a short dude among Giants.

And we know about Napoleon complexes. But just thinking of that quote, if you go 82-0, Phil still ain't coming back. You're like, damn, bro! Well, I would say a couple of things. I think what you're saying,

there's obviously some truth to it. Jerry was... Jerry wanted some credit for putting the team together around Jordan. He didn't draft Jordan. Rod Thorne drafted Jordan. But Jerry Krause did bring in Phil Jackson. He did bring in Scotty Pippen.

He did bring in Horace Grant. He did bring in Steve Kerr. He did all of the key players on those championship teams. Did he seek too much credit for that? Yeah, probably. It's a sport of egos, right? And Michael had as big an ego as anybody, certainly. And so you could certainly say that.

What I've always said about Jerry Krause is this, Roland. Jerry Krause is an employee. He did not own the Chicago Bulls. He was an employee. You know what I mean? He worked for Jerry Reinsdorf, who was the owner. Right. And if Jerry Reinsdorf, the owner, wanted that if Jerry Reinsdorf the owner wanted that team to

stay together that team would have stayed together it didn't stay together and that's because of what because I think the owner Jerry Reinsdorf did not want to keep paying the salaries that he was paying at the time to the top players didn't want to pay Phil Jackson what the top coaches were getting at the time and was ready to move on at a lower payroll than he had previously had to pay. I've never, in 30 years of covering the NBA, I've never met an owner that said, I can't do what I want to do because my general manager disagrees with me. Right. Ever.

Right. Especially a guy who owned two professional sports franchises. Exactly. Exactly. So you know the case. And then, of course, what? In 22 years, the Bulls have been to one Eastern Conference Finals. Yeah.

So you got six titles. You got all of that. But, baby, you ain't tasted nothing in 22 years. Right. Yeah, I think forget all the money you had. Look, you're a billionaire with everybody else. Bottom line is, Mark, you like being on top. And I think

for all his dancing, trying to explain now, Jerry Rando is probably like, damn, what the hell was I thinking by just letting Jerry do what he want. My ass should have stepped in and say, shut it down. Y'all win the title. Y'all all coming back.

Because, see, it ain't no guarantee you're going to come back. Yeah, they haven't been relevant since, you know, Derrick Rose had his MVP season, really. And I think I would, I know Jerry's not here to answer for himself, but I go to the guy above him, like we've been talking about, Jerry Reinstorf,

the owner. I would call it system failure because you know if you're going to be successful sometimes in business or sports you you buy the house and you worry about the mortgage later and they could have first enterprising and as creative as they were in getting those players to put around michael jordan and win those championships, the six titles, I think it was as deleterious and an egregious oversight that they didn't plan enough far ahead monetarily, financially,

to fit things correctly so that they could sustain what they had. To think that you win three titles and you don't get a shot for the fourth by blowing it up without blowing it up by not having a plan is really something incredible. And it kind of takes a little bit of the shine off the management job that they did to put it all together and have that incredible run of six titles in eight years. And, you know, I think that Scotty, he might not have come back because he was due to be paid. Maybe there's a way that they could have done that if they would have been creative, but to not even get on the court

and run it until the wheels fall off is crazy. It's like in boxing, okay? You want the title of champion, you earn it in the ring. You don't earn it by the sanction, by just giving it to you. And so I think that's the deal. You want to see them win it or lose it on the floor. There were a lot of people who talked about,

and Jason Johnson has a piece in the Griot talking about Michael Jordan activism and things along those lines. And the documentary talked about the whole shoe comment, Republicans buy shoes, he said it was a joke, people wanting Michael Jordan to do all these different things, even as it is today. But what I found to be interesting is that

Craig Hodges' voice could have been very interesting in this documentary, and it wasn't. That... To have that level of attention, David, focused on Jordan activism, and you not talk to basically the Colin Kaepernick of that team, I think was a missing ingredient. They should have had Craig in. And if you've talked to Craig, and I've talked to Craig,

a lot of people have over the years. He talked to the Garden in 2017. Same thing. And what Craig has basically said over the years is Michael didn't want to talk because he wasn't educated enough about the issues. OK, to be able to talk. And he felt like he would he didn't want to talk about things he didn't know about. I tend to agree with that, with that interpretation. Look, when I was younger, Roland, when I was in my late 20s and early 30s and covering the league for the Post and for ESPN, look, I wanted Michael to endorse Harvey Gant. I used to always say,

what could they do to Michael Jordan? You know, he's the greatest player of all time. What could they do to him? But, you know, as you get older, you realize you can't live your life. You certainly can't live somebody else's life. Right. And you should just concentrate't live your life, you certainly can't live somebody else's life. Right. And you should just concentrate on living your life.

And you can't make other people do what you want them to do. And so Michael did what he did. I wish he had done more publicly. He did a lot of things privately. He chose to do them privately. And you have to accept the fact that some people are just wired that way, that they're not going to do the things that you want them to do publicly. But what I have come to also come to believe, Roland, is that because of Michael Jordan, because he was the first African-American to sell across the board in terms of endorsements

and have that kind of entree into corporate America. Someone like a LeBron James can not only make money, but also take the political stands that people want him to take. But that doesn't happen without Michael Jordan. You know what I'm saying? So you have to give Michael Jordan credit in his time for doing what he thought was best for his career and his life, and you can take shots at him for not doing enough,

and that's fair. He's a big boy. It's the public eye. But understand that if Michael Jordan hadn't been there, there'd be no Kobe, there'd be no LeBron James in terms of not just the endorsements but the ability to do social activism as well. Also, Mark, look, I don't recall Magic Johnson

saying a hell of a whole lot during his career on social justice issues. I don't. Now, maybe y'all can correct me, but Jordan wasn't... Magic was a capitalist, too. You know, he got into Magic Johnson theaters, too. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's true. I, you know, the Rodney Magic Johnson theaters, too. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's true.

I, you know, the Rodney King, I don't remember. I don't remember a whole lot. I could be wrong in that. But when that happened out in Los Angeles, I don't remember. Right. And that was in Los Angeles. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't remember him saying a whole bunch about that. And, you know, looking at Michael's civic activism, it looked a little bit different as a young guy back then. I was a little disappointed, but I understood. And that's what kind of, for me, frames LeBron James in a very formidable way right now, to be able to be in a position where he can speak to things that are very important. I live in a city where, you know, there's a lot going on, and Trayvon Martin was murdered up in Orlando just up the turnpike several years ago, and LeBron was very vocal. He came out right away. He wasn't the type to take somebody's temperature

and see which way the wind was blowing on certain civil rights issues. Well, there was some time, though. There was some time. I mean, because he was killed in the All-Star weekend in Sanford, Florida. I was actually in Orlando. That story began to bubble up, began to bubble up and I remember and I remember, and

again, real clear, folks out there start tripping. I'm not taking credit for anything, but I remember I was one of the folks who were driving on social media and I was tweeting Dwayne Wade and LeBron directly. And like, yo, because I knew Dwayne so I was texting him as well. And I remember after they took the hoodie, you know, I knew Dwayne. So I was texting him as well. And then I remember

after they took the hoodie, you know, I remember Dwayne sending me a tweet saying, Roland, thanks for keeping us abreast and pressing us on these issues. And what happened was, as it began, because I was going, yo, Miami Heat, the kids from Miami, Orlando Magic, what the hell happened near y'all? Not the one of y'all saying, Jack. What the hell is going on? And then, of course, when they took that photo with the hoodies, just that photo said a hell of a whole lot at that moment. And then

you begin to see this thing build and build and build. But to David's point about knowledge, I've experienced this with many professional athletes. And also entertainers, who call me personally and say, hey, Ro, I don't know nothing about this here.

I trust you. Give me the 411. Because the hard part is when you get somebody who don't know what the hell they're talking about who starts talking, and they make it worse. I think that's part of it, is being able to speak comfortably on things with the requisite knowledge.

And I think what we see with LeBron now is that he actually is willing, he's evolved to the point where he's willing to do the work, the research, to be able to make a statement. And it's important enough for him to do that. I think also, I think with this documentary, and y'all know it because, again, you see how the sausage is made. And I just think for the general public,

having no real understanding of how we perceive, we look at a Steve Jobs, we look at someone like that, and I think people, oh man, just these dumb athletes, without realizing no, no, no. The brilliance and the high level. The greatest part was listening to Dennis Rodman describe

the basketball spinning. And how he was breaking down where the ball was going to go. I'm going to go here, then here and here and here. And again, people think, oh, man, they're dumb and crazy. No, no, no, no, no.

That takes a high level of intellect to be at that level to study your craft. Yeah, these are guys that, you know, watch dozens of hours of film, hundreds of hours of film over over the course of their careers to be able to speak with authority about if the ball bounces here, I'm going to do this. And the ball bounces here. I'm going to do that. And Jordan, knowing exactly what Brian Russell, the Utah Jazz defender, how he liked to defend up on his toes. So if I give him a head of fate, he can't recover. And so all of of those things that's that's that's the 10,000 hours that Malcolm Gladwell talks about right and becoming an expert in your field and all of those guys are experts in their field whether it's Michael or Magic or Isaiah Thomas all of them were experts in their field Kobe was an expert about basketball like you couldn't tell Kobe

something that he didn't see before these guys guys have seen every defense. They've seen every coverage. They know exactly what teams are going to try to do. They know three moves ahead what they're going to do. And that's what the truly great players do is because they have so much knowledge about the game and intelligence about the game that they can anticipate what's going to happen and act accordingly and then create an opportunity, and that's all it is, is an opportunity to make the right play to win a basketball game. Mark, nobody got talked about more, I think, outside of the Bulls than Isaiah Thomas, this documentary. And I really think there should be a significant revaluation

over how the basketball world views Isaiah Thomas. I think when you hear discussions about the greatest players, I can tell you it's rare his name comes up. And I think this documentary really revealed so much. And the reason I think that Dream Team snub really personally hurts him to this day is because that would have solidified him as one of the greatest ever. Yeah, I think that's a great valid point, Roland.

And in a strange, almost perverse way, when you look at the way that Michael Jordan was portrayed as maybe not a nice guy, a bit of a bully at times in the context of the documentary, you know, Isaiah should be and feel vindicated in a way. Because he was a type eight competitor as well and you know pound for pound six feet and under you know I don't know that there was a greater player in the game I mean I I happen to think that Isaiah in a way kind of revolutionized the point guard position in what he was able to do but I that uh that did hurt him not being on the dream team uh it it's it's a shame because when you look at chuck daly being the coach of that team boy there there had to be some kind of um consternation on chuck's part and and i knew chuck and you know he's not here to answer these questions, but Chuck loved Isaiah. I think that he would have wanted Isaiah on that team, obviously.

And I think, David, when you start looking at, again, how this documentary, what it showed, I think what it also showed is this here. In terms of how national media also frames this as well, I think that the glamour, the glamour teams of the NBA historically, Boston Celtics, Los Angeles Lakers, even though the Knicks ain't won jacks since the original shaft came out, the New York Knicks. And I think, I think, yes, the Houston Rockets fan will take a shot at the Knicks since we beat them in the finals. I think Chicago has been elevated into that glamour team. And I think also Isaiah was hurt because it was Detroit. The phrase bad boys.

It was like, oh, y'all were like this rough and tumble thug team as opposed to this great team. And so media framing also dictates how people are perceived in the moment, but also 10, 20 years later. And that also plays a role in it. Even though Isaiah had the great smile and the personality, he was still, oh, yeah, but you on that thug team. Yeah, well, there was a lot of things with Isaiah. You could do a 10-part series on Isaiah, really. I mean, you know, there was a lot of things with Isaiah. You could do a 10-part series on Isaiah, really. I mean, you know, there was a lot of things.

Number one, to your point, the media framing is completely accurate, Roland. You're completely right. I was always, you know, I've done a lot of shows today. And somebody asked me about Kareem, and I said, and the question was, well, Kareem doesn't seem to get the recognition as a great player. And I said, because think about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who was formerly known as Lu Alcindor, changing his name to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

in the early 70s, becoming a Muslim, and trying to explain that to a bunch of old white guys who were sports writers at the time. Right. And having no champions who could understand where he was coming from. And there's a reason, because nobody advocated for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the media, you know, at that time.

And that carried over, whereas Magic, Bird, Isaiah, Michael, they all had champions. They all had people who said, look, you need to think about this guy in this context and why he's great. To Isaiah's point, 46-39 career record against Michael Jordan, period. End of sentence. He's got a winning record against Michael Jordan. His team ended the Boston dynasty, ended it. His team beat the Lakers in the finals, basically ended that dynasty. And they didn't, you know, ultimately Michael overcame the Pistons and won, but the lessons that they had to learn from the

Pistons are what created that dynasty in Chicago as well. And to your point about the Olympic team, it's not just 92. Isaiah Thomas was on the Olympic team in 1980. That team didn't get to go to the Olympics because of the boycott against the Soviet Union. So he was twice

snubbed. So when you don't get the chance to represent your nation, to put the flag on you, to win the gold medal, I mean, you're just, it's just a different

view of how you're being framed, and it's like, for him, trophy case, NCAA championship, world championship, state championship, doesn't have a gold medal. Doesn't have a gold medal. And again, in comparison to Kareem, who was Luell Cinder in 1968, he followed Harry Edwards Lee. He boycotted the 68 Olympics in Mexico City.

He didn't get to be on the Olympic team. And then in 72, for some insane reason, he wasn't on the team. I can't describe to you why that didn't happen. Which is just absolutely stunning. I want to pick up just a couple of questions here. We talk about media framing. And we're talking about LeBron and his social issues.

Here's also why today is all so different. Because of guys like y'all. What people don't understand is, you say that all these old white guys, the reality is, you got all these black players, high school, college, basketball, football, pros.

Yeah, when you go in that press box, it's lily white. I talked about my boy Roger B. Brown down. We would go to the mavericks games and trust me it'll be roger b me and a couple of the cats and there's all these white folks all these stations and so for a lebron james today he has the luxury of there being more black columnists more african-amercers, Mark, more African-American reporters. And so he's not having to explain to a whole bunch of white guys why can't he just shut up and dribble the basketball because he's now got brothers who in meetings can have his back in news meetings when they discuss and what to cover. Mark, your thoughts on that?

Yeah, it's so true. That's that's keeping it a buck. That's 100. Because, you know, I think about some of the production meetings that I'm in where I work and, you know, we'll get off course a little bit. And I'll have to bring it back because there's so much nuance in sport. Right. I think about, you know, I was covering a game and one of the sideline reporters was asking, geez, he was doing this after he dunked the ball. I said, well, you know, you've been to the playground. That means he put it on his head. He dunked it. And and, you know, without different perspectives, without people from different backgrounds that look like me and look like Davidid and yourself uh we're missing out on that i think about the national championship game in uh college football when clemson is getting the championship

trophy and the clemson players are up there saying hey if you want a coach that isn't all up in your video you're recruiting right right then come to clemson and it was a funny moment that was lost on unfortunately the white folks had no clue. They didn't know what the hell they were talking about. You know, so, you know, fortunately in the NBA, I think we do a little bit better job than some other sports. But I know that because, like you mentioned, LeBron, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, because they deal with people who they can sit down with in the interview rooms prior to games and feel comfortable with and kind of peel that onion back a little bit and be a little bit more revealing.

I think that helps the overall product. And they know that they're going to be understood that none of their mannerisms, none of their nuances are going to be misinterpreted to the negative side of the equation, then I think we all benefit. David? Yeah, no question. No question about that. You know, it's been since I... One of my first beat jobs, Roland, was covering Georgetown. That was at the Washington Post.

And I remember doing a story on a player and I completely quoted everything that he said, accurately. It was not the King's English. I got a phone call at one in the morning from John Thompson. And John said, David, would you mind helping this kid out with his language?

You know, just, you know, fix it for him. And I understood completely what he was saying. You know what I mean? And I, and I wasn't offended by it. I wasn't like Joe reporter. I'm going to, I'm going to do the job. You know, I'm going to quote him correctly. And I knew exactly what he meant. It's like, coach, don't worry about it. I got you. Don't worry about it. And, and, and to Mark's point and to your point, that only happens when people trust you and understand that you're going to do your job and you're going to cover the team and you're going to be fair and you're going to take – if they do something bad, you've got to report on it. But on the other hand, you're not looking to get them. You're not out to get them. You know what I mean?

And so there's a different – there's a subtlety, as Mark pointed, there's a nuance to it that I think people, when there's people of color in the press box, that helps, I think, in these regards. Two questions left. Gentlemen, I'll start with David and go to Mark. Michael Jordan doesn't want to give anybody, he's still

compared to today. Gary Payton limited his ass. If you look at the stats, I'm just saying, he tried to laugh. No, I had no problem

with Gary Payton. Now, then Mike's like, well, I had a lot on my mind. Now, hold up, Mike. You have a lot on your mind the first three games or the next thing. See, that's my only – see, I get it. You don't want to give anybody an edge, but Gary Payton. Gary's a great – Gary's a Hall of Famer. He's a Hall of Famer, period, end of sentence.

He's one of the great individual defenders of all time. Did he defend Michael Jordan better than most people defended Michael Jordan? Sure. Yes. And was George Carl an idiot not putting him on Michael in game one? Yes. But to Jordan's point, did he stop Michael Jordan? No, he didn't.

But here's the deal, Mark. You can't stop Michael Jordan. But when you look at those stats, field goal percentage was down. Three-point percentage was way down but it was like but it was like mike i know you don't want to but you could the numbers don't lie gary did a damn good job mike stop running a pretty good job he did a pretty good job the problem was he let michael know about it at the end of game five because i remember ron harper running into gary payton a little bit later that night at a spot for a dinner spot.

And Ron went right up to Gary and said, hey, you shouldn't have been popping your mouth like that because Mike's back at the hotel with a bunch of his buddies from North Carolina hanging out, and he's getting ready for game six. Well, if I'm Gary Payton, I'm going to do the same thing. If you can't get that many shots in, I'm going to crow about getting some shots in.

So I'm with Gary. I'm with Gary. Last question. Obviously, we saw the 10-parter here. Mark, I'll start with you. Who would you like? It doesn't have to be a 10-parter, but who do you think, either an individual or a team,

that would make for an unbelievably amazing, similar documentary? Wow. I would... Man, we... We brought his name up a little while ago. I'd love to see something on Isaiah Thomas. You know, Isaiah came up in an environment where he had to earn everything.

I think his trip through playing, you know, his Hall of Famer, obviously, through management, ownership in the NBA. I think he's got the most compelling stories out there and a guy that, you know, he overcame everything coming from Chicago. His story, his mom, Mary, raising him and his brothers. I think Isaiah Thomas, I'd love to see a great documentary at the depth done that we did a Michael Jordan documentary, you know, with the kind of access. I don't know if it might be a little bit too late to do that kind of retrospective, but I'd love to see it done on him. David? Iverson. You know, Iverson to me is –

I think Allen is one of the most important figures in the last 20, 25 years of sports, not just the NBA. Allen introduced a completely different dynamic to team sports. Not just in terms of his play, but in terms of the cultural significance, the way he looked, the ink, all of those things. If you ask guys today who maybe didn't see Jordan in his prime, who was your idol growing up? So many of them will say Iverson. It was Iverson.

And I don't think, because they didn't win a championship, he doesn't get that kind of recognition. But he was an amazingly important figure in the history of this league. And I think yeah. And after Jordan, who I think is the most important in the last 30 years, I believe in terms of just everything, not just on the court, but everything, I think Allen Iverson is the next guy. Yeah, and also cultural influence. When you talk about, it's funny.

So I'll end with this here, because I'll link in what we talked about with all of these white sports journalists. And then again, my man, Roger B. Brown passing. So we were at the Dallas Mavericks media day, and we're sitting at the table, and there's a white sports writer who's still covering the NBA,

who starts going on about how much Allen Iverson was a thug. And I go, I'm sorry, what is the last thug you roll up against? I said, why is he a thug? So he starts talking about his hair. And I said, oh, so he has cornrows, is the last thug you roll up against? I said, why is he a thug? So he starts talking about his hair. And I said, oh, so he has cornrows, he's a thug. I said, what the hell is Cherokee Parks with a mohawk? I said, what the hell is that?

So we start going at it. I said, no, no, no, you're not going to sit your ass at this table and call Allen Iverson a thug. I said, because see, here's what y'all white boys do. I said, a white boy in Philadelphia says something about Allen Iverson. Then a white boy in Detroit picks it up. Then aon. Then a white boy in Detroit picks it up. Then a white sportscaster in L.A. picks it up. I said, so all of a sudden,

y'all have created this entire narrative that he's a thug. I said, you ain't even running to a thug. You know nothing about him because you're saying that because of tattoos and his hair. I said, but I will show you the white boys in the league who have tattoos, who have crazy hairstyles, but they're not thugs.

I said, so you're not going to sit at this table and go, dude, when I say he froze, first of all, Roger B is cracking up laughing. He's like, bro, you killed him. I said, but that was what I'm talking about to Mark's point, what happens when we're at the table. You're not going to establish the narrative

and then y'all run with it. And then 30 years from now, somebody's like, oh, yeah, he's a thug. Like, no, no, no, no. And that's where our voices are critically important. So I thought it was fantastic. Great job. They'll certainly clean up, I think, when it comes to award shows.

And we certainly appreciate the perspective there. And I'm sure Michael probably will cuss David out for thinking the Pacers were actually going to win that game seven and actually admit it. He already knows. He already knows. He knows, but he probably in the back of his mind is like, yeah, I'm going to hold it against you. Because clearly Michael still has grudges.

He never forgets. Yes. And ask Charles Barkley about those damn grudges. All right. David Aldridge, Mark Jones, I appreciate the gentleman. Thank you so very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. All right. David Aldrin, Mark Jones, I appreciate it, gentlemen. Thank you so very much. Bro, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, brother.

I appreciate it. All right, folks, we are out of time. We were supposed to do Fit Live Win today. I apologize to our guests. I did not expect us to go that long,

but the conversation was just way too good for me to stop. So we're going to do Fit Live Win tomorrow. Also, I will read the names tomorrow of our Brain to Funk

fan club members. So we'll do that again. Keep my boy Roger B. Brown and his family in your prayers. So thanks so much. I'll see you guys tomorrow. Holla! Sometimes as dads, I think we're too hard on ourselves. We get down on ourselves on not being able to, you know, we're the providers. But we also have to learn to take care of ourselves.

A wrap-away, you got to pray for yourself as well as for everybody else. But never forget yourself. Self-love made me a better dad because I realized my worth. Never stop being a dad. That's dedication. Find out more at fatherhood.gov. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lott. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, sir. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war.

This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We met them at their homes. We met them at their recording studios. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real.

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.