#RolandMartinUnfiltered - 7.17 #AhmaudArbery's killers plead not guilty; Gov. Kemp Vs Mayor Bottoms; Rev. C.T. Vivian tribute

Episode Date: July 23, 2020

7.17.20 #RolandMartinUnfiltered: #AhmaudArbery's killers plead not guilty; Gov. Kemp sues Mayor Bottom over mask mandate; Sec. Pompeo gives his thoughts on the New York Times' 1619 Project; Ambassador Susan Rice says coronavirus and racism are national security threats; Confederate flags banned on military bases; Fulton County DA updates the #RayshardBrooks case; Tribute to civil rights icon Rev. C.T. VivianSupport #RolandMartinUnfiltered via the Cash App ☛ https://cash.app/$rmunfiltered or via PayPal ☛https://www.paypal.me/rmartinunfiltered#RolandMartinUnfiltered Partner: CeekBe the first to own the world's first 4D, 360 Audio Headphones and mobile VR Headset. Check it out on www.ceek.com and use the promo code RMVIP2020-#RolandMartinUnfiltered is a news reporting site covered under Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. today is friday july 17 2020 coming up on roland martin unfiltered Today is Friday, July 17th, 2020. Coming up on Roland Martin Unfiltered, we have lost one of our greatest civil rights lions, the Reverend Dr. C.T. Vivian, passed away today at the age of 95. We have a special digital home going for him. We'll talk with Bernice King, the daughter of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who, of course, C.T. Vivian served as one of his lieutenants.

We'll also talk with Diane Nash, Bernard Lafayette, Reverend James Lawson, founder of the Nashville Movement, John Hope Bryan, a number of people we have lined up to celebrate him, including Ambassador Andrew Young. You do not want to miss that. Plus, you don't want to miss the one-on-one interview I did with him. Trust me, it's an amazing interview. Ahmaud Arbery's killers have decided to plead not guilty. We will, of course, talk about that. Plus, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp is suing Atlanta Mayor Keisha Bottoms,

not just the city, personally. Secretary Pompeo gives his thoughts on New York Times 1619 project. We'll show you how stupid and idiotic he is. And the defense secretary has decided to officially ban Confederate flags from military bases. Take that, Donald Trump. We're also joined on the show by Ambassador Susan Rice. Of course, she, of course, is on the short list to be VP for Joe Biden.

She will also talk about racism as a national security threat, as well as on the show, Fulton County D.A. Paul Howard will update us on the Rashad Brooks case. He also is facing a tough runoff for his seat. Folks, we have a jam packed show. It is time to bring the funk on Roland Martin Unfiltered. Let's go. Whatever it is, he's got the scoop, the fact, the fine. Let's go. Just for kicks he's rollin' Yeah, yeah It's Uncle Roro, yo Yeah, yeah It's Rollin' Martin

Yeah, yeah Rollin' with Rollin' now Yeah, yeah He's broke, he's fresh, he's real The best you know He's Rollin' Martin Now Three Georgia men who killed 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery pleaded not guilty today. Travis McMichael, his father Gregory McMichael, have been charged with murder and aggravated assault. Their neighbor, William Roddy Bryan, who recorded the killing, has been charged with felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.

A judge will decide if the case moves to trial or it gets dismissed. Now, speaking of what's happening in the court cases, Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms is being sued by Georgia Governor Brian Kemp over the city's mask mandate. Kemp claims that the measure is violating his emergency orders. This is what he tweeted. This lawsuit is on behalf of the Atlanta business owners and their hardworking employees who are struggling to survive during these difficult times. Moments later, Bottoms responded, tweeting 3,104 Georgians have died and I and my family are amongst the 106,000 who have tested positive for COVID-19. Meanwhile, I have been sued by Governor Kemp for a mask mandate. A better use of taxpayer money would be to expand testing and contact tracing. Hashtag ATL strong.

Wow. Let's bring in our panel. Certainly join us this week. Rob Richardson, host of Disruption Now podcast. Derek Holley, president, Reaching America and political analyst. Rob, what the hell? Seriously? I mean, I mean, we are in one hundred and thirty seven thousand Americans have died. We are seeing record cases, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Arizona.

We are trying to stop a pandemic. I totally understand. I am a small business owner. I totally get that. But how much use is it to have a business stay open when you're dead and your employees are dead or seriously ill?

Yeah, I'm really sorry I laughed, but you have to laugh to keep from crying or just going off. But, you know, this governor, Governor Kemp, is in the race to be one of the

most stupidest governors we have. And that's saying something because we got a lot of stupid governors that are following the village. I mean, it's like a lot of competition between Ron DeSantis, Tate Reeves, and Greg Abbott in Texas. It is. I don't know who's going to take it, but right now I say Kemp is leading. He's really stupid. And here's the thing. Let's even talk about this from an economic point of view. If you don't solve the virus, you don't solve the economics. Most people are not coming out if they don't feel safe. So all this effort to say that you're acting on behalf of business is not even true. But more importantly, lives are more important than property. So if we actually had a competent government right now, we don't. That would

be happening now. And businesses would get the support that they need. But instead, we're acting, we have some fake war on science. This is reality. We are in a pandemic, and the United States of America has failed leadership, no leadership, and we're deciding to engage in stupidity. This is stupid as hell. It's dumb. Derek, I'm

not trying to pick on your fellow Republican governors. I am. But Derek, seriously, but Derek, seriously, here's the deal. Okay. If, if, if Gavin Newsom was doing stupid stuff, I'm going to rip him. He has. If, if Cuomo was doing stupid stuff, I'm going to rip him. But what we're dealing with here, the evidence is clear.

It's abundant. And you, I thought Republicans cared about local control. I thought they hated big government. Then why is he, why then why is he telling everybody you gotta wear a mask? Why is it a law to wear a mask? We should be responsible enough to wear a mask if you want to. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You finished. Here in Maryland,

it's not a law that you have to wear a mask. However, they do ask you before you come into a store to please put on a mask. And it's left up to your discretion whether you do so or not. You shouldn't have to find an individual, threaten to put him in jail in order to wear a mask.

Yes, you can. That is law school and everything. No, but yes, you can. Yes, you can. I'll get with that. No, yes, you can. Don't tell me I have to wear a mask. Yes, you can.

You do. Oh, you can or not. Hold up. Wait a minute. If I tell your ass to wear some shoes and a shirt for service, guess what? That's different. Guess what? Wait, wait, wait. You don't tell me to wear no mask. Hold up, wait a minute. If I tell your ass to wear some shoes and a shirt for service, guess what? That's different. That's what? Wait, wait, wait.

You don't tell me to wear no mask. Hold up, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold up, Derek, Derek, Derek. One second. Hold up, hold up. Derek, Derek, Derek. Derek, if I got to require you to wear shoes, I can't require you to wear a mask?

You're going to tell me, yesterday I rode my bike 42 miles. You're telling me I got to wear a mask when I go cycling? That's not what they said. You're making a faux argument. You're making a faux argument. Nobody's saying if you're outside riding a bike that you have to wear a mask.

If you're going to be around people, hold on. One second, one second, Rob. That's what she's saying. No, Rob. She's saying anyone outside. One second. One second. If you're going to be indoors, we're not saying anyone outside.

Derek, hold on. Hold on. Rob and Derek, go. Okay. Listen, if you're outside, the virus dissipates in a large outside area. If you're not by people, you don't have to wear a mask. No one's saying that. What you're saying is if you're going into facilities,

you're going into an event where you're going to be around a lot of people, you spread the virus. That's all. We want to stop spreading the virus. Why is this a fight with science? I don't understand this. What is this? No, no, no.

Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek, let me ask you a question. Derek, let me ask you a question. Derek, the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which is located in Georgia. Hold on one second. Well, clearly, Brian Kemp isn't quite sure. If the head of the CDC says if we can get all Americans to wear a mask for the next two months. We can completely get this under control. That's what the head of the CDC said.

No, that's what he said. I'm quoting him. She said that she wants anybody who leaves the house to put on a mask. That means if you leave your house, because I think it's ridiculous for individuals to be sitting in their car with the windows up by themselves with a mask on. So you're telling anybody who leaves their house, regardless of what you're going to do, you need to put a mask on. Hell no. You ain't going to put no law and tell me I got to do that. So you're perfectly fine with Brian Kemp's lawsuit. I didn't say that.

No, no, no. I'm asking you a question. I don't get the lawsuit. I said that early on. But what I am saying is don't tell me I got to wear a mask. I think it's funny that Trumpers find this as their new movement

wearing a mask. This is their sudden civil rights movement. Like, I won't wear a mask. I don't get this. Actually, it does. No, it don't. Actually, it does. This is Derek Hollis.

No, no, no. This is Derek Hollis. No, no, no. Actually, it does. The fact of the matter is, what you have here is the people, all of these Republican governors who are in opposition to mask mandates. I'm just going to give you an example, Rob and Derek. I remember that white woman in Texas when Judge Eric Moyet, a brother, told her, ma'am, look, the order is where you need to shut your businesses down to save people. That was the order. That was the order.

She goes, she's like, I'm not apologizing. All of these people, these right wing folks start giving her money, half a million dollars raised. Governor Greg Abbott says that was not the intention of my executive order. You can't put somebody in jail. We shouldn't be telling people to wear a mask. What happens? He reopens the state Memorial Day. Cases go up. Guess who all of a sudden says, you know what? We're going to have to require people to wear a mask. We might have to shut the entire state down because of coronavirus. The same Governor Greg Abbott. That, Derek, is why they require you to wear a damn mask. No, Derek,

they require you to wear a mask because guys like you are so hard-headed. Did he make it a law? He said, first of all, listen, you didn't hear what I said. You didn't hear what I said. Governor Greg Abbott said, you did not listen to what I said. Abbott said, Eric, Derek, let me finish. Abbott said, we are going to have to require people to wear masks. He first. This is ridiculous. This is ridiculous. No, no, no, no.

It's folk who listen to you, out there catching coronavirus and spreading it. No, no. If you listen to me, you're going to protect yourself. If you listen to me, you're going to protect your family. That's the problem. Rob, Rob, Rob. Well, guess what? And Rob, that attitude right there, Rob, is precisely why cases are spiking.

That's why cases are spiking. Rob, that's why cases are spiking. That's why cases are spiking. Rob, that's why cases are spiking. Rob, go ahead. Listen, you look, all these governors, Governor DeSantis, that said that oh, there was that one clip where Governor DeSantis was like, well, we're not going to be the new New York.

We're not going to do that. You guys all said that. We have victory in the open state, and they're worse than New York ever was. Data works, and we have to protect people like this is not at the end of the day. Derek, this is not about me. It's not about you. It's about others. You may not die from it, but you don't want to pay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, Derek. Hold on, Derek. Derek, Derek, you also said, Derek, you also said that, oh, what Abbott did wasn't the same as Lance Bottoms. Henry, go to my iPad. One second. Governor. Yes, you did.

Governor Greg Abbott. Derek, Governor Greg Abbott orders Texans in most counties to wear masks in public. I'm not done. What is the difference? There is no difference. It's an executive order. It's like a law. What are you talking about?

I can't believe we have a debate. There's a law, and he ordered. It's the same. If it's in his powers to do it. Wait, let me give a little bit of a civics lesson. If it's in his powers to do it by the legislator, and he exercises his power, it operates like the law because he's executing the law under his power as an executive. So, yes, it's the law. Let me get one more. Let me get one more. Let me get one more. Henry, go to my iPad. Alabama Governor Kay Ivey. Alabama Governor Kay Ivey issued statewide mask

mandate in public spaces beginning Thursday. Derek, you have Republican governors who are realizing we got to keep people safe. But you are not wearing a mask. I don't have to wear a mask. That's just boob-headed and silly. No, if I'm going out to ride my bike, Roland, I'm not putting on no damn mask. If I go running, I'm not putting on no damn mask. Okay, guess what?

You know what, Derek? I'm not putting on no mask.. Okay, guess what? You know what? You know what, Derek? I'm not putting on no mask. Okay, first of all, Derek, if you're riding in a car, you don't have to put a mask on because you're in the car. Why do you have people doing it? This is the silliness, because this is the silliness right here. Here's the deal, people. Everybody who's watching right now, let me tell y'all about another Derrick,

a top Florida official in Florida. He had the same attitude as Derrick, opposing mask. His ass is in ICU right now, critical condition, because he got coronavirus. Also, I told y'all yesterday, Chuck Woolery, oh, he just trashed all his mask mandate. Now his son got coronavirus. Now Chuck has deleted his Twitter account because now he looks like a damn fool by opposing it. So if you want to sit here and oppose it, that's

fine. Let me go to my next. If you want to stop wearing a mask, start wearing a mask so we can stop having to wear a mask. It's really simple. Wear the mask so we can stop wearing them. I want to stop too. Yeah, I would love to stop too, but the bottom line is when you got people who are so damn hard-headed and don't want to pay attention, that's what you got. Let's go to our next story.

Secretary Pompeo harshly criticized the New York Times 1619 Project, saying that their underlying message is that, quote, our country was founded for human bondage. Duh. It's a slander on great people. Watch this fool. The New York Times' 1619 Project, so named for the year that the first slaves were transported to America, wants you to believe that our country was founded for human bondage. They want you to believe that America's institutions continue to reflect the country's acceptance of slavery at our founding. They want you to believe that Marxist ideology that America is only the oppressors and the oppressed.

The Chinese Communist Party must be gleeful when they see the New York Times spout this ideology. Some people have taken these false doctrines to heart. The rioters pulling down statues thus see nothing wrong with desecrating monuments to those who fought for our unalienable rights from our founding to the present day. This is a dark vision of America's birth. I reject it.

It's a disturbed reading of our history. It is a slander on our great people. Dumbass. The New York Times 1619 Project is an ongoing initiative that reexamines the legacy of slavery in the United States since the first Africans were brought to Virginia. Derek, what history book does that fool read?

I don't know, bro. No, that's your party. So I'm just saying, I'm like... You can't associate me with everybody in that damn party. I'm saying that's your'm like... You can't associate me with everybody in that damn party. No, I'm just saying I'm saying that's your party. Here's the thing, bro. Okay.

Here's the thing. I don't know why he made dominance. I am as black as you are and I know my history and I know where we came from. So I don't understand why Secretary Pompeo made the marks. It's very questionable and I don't know why. Our tree was founded on slavery,

and it's a dark past that needs to be addressed. And until we get to the root of it, we're going to continue to have these problems that we're having out here in the streets right now. Well, I agree. And I know why he said it, because he's playing to a base and people that like to believe that these things didn't exist, and they want to paint people that are protesting, that are challenging America as anti-American. This is, you know, as we're honoring the great C.T. Vivian, they said the same thing about him. They said the same thing about Martin Luther King.

They said that they were communists. Our government challenged them and actually had the FBI watch over them because they were supposed to be Marxists. This is an old playbook that goes back to the beginning of America. I just want to say this. When he talks about the dark chapter of America, America does have a dark chapter, as Derek said.

And we agree on this. We do. And, you know, Frederick Douglass said it during the when he talked about the Fourth of July, like we talk about professing freedom, but we have people in chains during World War Two when when when black Americans were overseas fighting, the Germans who they locked up would go ahead of them when they were actually locked up. And we'd have to sit in the back of the bus while we talk and profess about freedoms. And now when George Floyd was killed, sparking an ongoing collective grievance, the world was

protesting to make sure that America is living up to the realities and the ideals that it says it has. So this man is trying to paint a picture that is not true because he wants to they want to get people riled up to make people feel like America is under attack. America is not under attack. We're under a revelation and we need to be clear about who we are and tell the truth. I agree with everything you said. I agree with everything you said, but I do not agree with the protest that it's being overshadowed by some individuals, some of these white kids who ain't got a damn thing to do with black lives matter who care less about our black lives who are just tearing up stuff for no reason at all.

Oh, Darren, that's not overshadowing it. That's not overshadowing it. That's what happens when you also have mainstream media who gives that far more attention. But here's the deal. If you actually look at the totality. If you set a fire to the Wendy's, how's that more attention? You set a fire to the Wendy's, the white girl where the brother was shot down. That was a white girl, Rob.

I know that. Derek, I'm aware of that. We followed the story. Rob, go ahead. When you judge a movement by its most extreme elements, that's the talk of the oppressor. That's the talk of people that don't want to see the movement. When you just...

Hold on, hold on. Derek, Derek, Rob is talking. Hold on. When you win... Let Rob finish, then I'm going to come back to you, Rob, then Derek. So Fox News and others likes to just focus on the most extreme elements. Nobody here is advocating for violence. So we're talking about what's going on. It's not being overshadowed. That's what others like to do in order to distract from it. Now you can talk. Now, Derek, go ahead.

What y'all don't want to do is admit the problem. The white people's a problem doing that stuff to the movement. That's all I'm saying. I use that as one example, and you want to put that out as, oh, he's using that for the whole movement. No, I know. That's one example. Right, and actually, you're making our point. It's one example when there are numerous other folks

who have been doing stuff right. You only brought up one. Now, allow me to bring, let's go to our next story. Defense Secretary Mark Esper has officially announced that all displays of Confederate battle flags are banned on a U.S. military basis. In his memo, he stated that displays of the American flag, state and territory flags, and the POW, MIA flag,

and unit flags are okay. This is what he said in a tweet. With this change in policy, we will further improve the morale, cohesion, and readiness of the force in defense of our great nation. Derek, the other day, Donald Trump said he had no problem with folks flying the Confederate flag. In fact, he also said that if they change the name of military bases named after Confederate generals, he would veto it. So clearly you have the defense. Did you say that?

I didn't hear that part. Now, you know you're going to get the tape, so. Go get the tape! Pull up the tape! I can't do it, man. So, Derek, Derek, why is the standard bearer of your party all of a sudden being the champion of Confederate flags? I don't know.

I can't answer or speak for that man. Okay? We talked about Confederate flags a couple weeks ago when I was on this show when I gave you my position. And so, you know, they need to go.

I don't know why President Trump has the comments. You said he made the comments to keep them. So, you know, I got to go with what you said because I didn't hear those comments.

Rob? Well, he's a racist. And so he wants to get people that he thinks are going to be more likely to vote if he can get their rage up. So he wants to focus on that. He wants to pretend as if the Confederacy is part of their heritage. It is not. Confederacy was around for five years.

The whole purpose, we know this, was to actually betray the nation. They wanted to branch off. They were traitors to this nation, and they were fighting for a horrible cause, which was to preserve slavery, period. And he wants to and he likes and he wants to talk about that. He wants to preserve white superiority. That's who this president is. That's who he is. And just and just and just and just well, Derek, this is what Donald Trump said just a couple of days ago to CBS Evening News in exclusive. Listen. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time.

Have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission.

This is Absolute Season 1. Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and six on June 4th.

Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. President Trump, back in 2015, you said the Confederate battle flag belongs in a museum. Do you still believe that? All I say is freedom of speech. It's very simple. My attitude is freedom of speech. It's very simple. My attitude is freedom of speech. Very strong views on the Confederate flag.

With me, it's freedom of speech. Very simple. Like it, don't like it, it's freedom of speech. Would you be comfortable with your supporters displaying the Confederate battle flag at political events? Well, you know, it depends on what your definition is, but I am comfortable with freedom of speech. It's very simple. But you understand why the flag is a painful symbol for many people,

because it's a reminder of slavery. Well, people love it. And I don't view, I know people that like the Confederate flag, and they're not thinking about slavery. I look at NASCAR, you go to NASCAR, you had those flags all over the place. They stopped it. I just think it's freedom of speech, whether it's Confederate flags or Black Lives Matter or anything else you want to talk about.

It's freedom of speech. President Trump, back in 2015, you said... Dash, Derek, he said it's freedom of speech. I mean, it is freedom of speech, right? I mean, I don't give a damn about Confederate flag. I can care less about Confederate flag. But it is freedom of speech. It's freedom of speech, but it's freedom of speech but it's a

difference when the state sponsors it okay so let's let's get this clear so it's freedom of speech to have a nazi flag should we do that should the state sponsor that there is no difference in my mind from hanging up a nazi flag they're hanging up a confederate flag they similar they they mean the same thing and no state should be sponsoring it and if you want to do it, if you want to be a personal jackass and have it, it is your right. But the state shouldn't be supporting it. That's what we're talking about, Derek. Okay. Lord have mercy.

We are truly dealing with some stuck-on stupid people. Folks, former National Security Advisor Ambassador Susan Rice believes that we are in the middle of two pandemics, coronavirus and racism. She also believes that both are national security threats. She joins us right now. Susan Rice, how you doing? I'm great, Roland. How you doing? Oh, you know, sitting here having a deal with stupid people who are three blocks away from my office, who reside in the White House, who say truly some of the dumbest stuff in the world. When you hear that nonsense,

this refusal to condemn the federal flag and then say, oh, the people who are flying it, they are thinking about slavery. This is no big deal. It's freedom of speech. And if they want to fly it, you know, at my rallies, OK, whatever. Donald Trump is absolutely, Ambassador, appealing to the most the most hardcore racist or folks in pushing those buttons. Agree or disagree? Absolutely agree. I mean, the dog whistle has become a bullhorn and the blower of that bullhorn is the modern day George Wallace. And, you know, it's that bad. It really is. And, you know, we've got the president expressing much more concern for Confederate monuments and flags than he is for the lives of Americans, over one hundred and thirty five thousand of whom have died on his watch because his utter failure to handle the coronavirus. So he's made clear what his priorities are

and how he intends to run for reelection, which is by pouring salt in the racial wounds and trying to divide this country. When you look at that decision made by the defense secretary and then you hear the nonsense from Mike Pompeo, the secretary of state, I mean, this is the individual. I mean, it's two contrasts. Secretary of Defense says you can't fly the Confederate flag at military bases. It's just not allowed. Then you overhear Secretary Mike Pompeo just in denial about how this nation

was created as if somehow that we haven't been dealing with racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and still dealing with the vestiges of that. I mean, these are so-called leaders. These are leaders for the rest of the world. As somebody who's been on an international stage, it has to absolutely drive you crazy to see that as the representation of the United States. Well, it does rather pain me to see this, to say the least. But, you know, it's actually a really serious challenge because consistent with our values and our leadership in the world, you know, we should be condemning racism. We should be condemning anti-Semitism, homophobia, all of the ways in which discriminatory or autocratic societies

abuse the rights of their people. And rather than speaking up and speaking up with moral authority, we're modeling much of that behavior here at home. And at the same time, drastically diminishing our global leadership and our ability to bring other countries and peoples to join with us to deal with challenges that affect our security and our prosperity and well-being. insensitive, even though, to put it politely, he is. It's about squandering our leadership in the role and undermining our national security as a consequence. And when we talk about that, I mean, now we're, again, after eight years of President Barack Obama, not only, I mean, obviously being the first black president in American history and that type of diplomacy to see this, for lack of a better phrase, this thuggish foreign policy, this grotesque display that we see across the world. What are you hearing from foreign leaders who you still talk with?

How are they looking at us? I mean, how are they viewing this country in this moment of an international pandemic and global financial issues? And you're still dealing with wars and things along those lines. What are they saying about us? Well, Roland, they're looking at us with dismay and disbelief. They can't believe how far we've fallen so fast. And the coronavirus, which, you know, in normal times, the expectation would be that America would be doing among the best in the world in confronting a pandemic and being of assistance to other countries that have less, that are wrestling with far less developed health care systems and structures.

Being a leader in stamping out the pandemic around the world, as we tried to do, for example, in 2014, a different scenario, but with the Ebola epidemic. That is our traditional role, rallying the world to deal with a problem effectively and not letting it get out of control here at home. In this instance, under President Trump, we've done absolutely the opposite. We've withdrawn from the global stage. We've taken our marbles and gone home from the World Health Organization, precisely the instrument that is needed to help coordinate assistance to the world's most needy countries. And we have

utterly failed and set the worst possible example for how to deal with this virus here at home. The highest infection rates, the largest numbers of deaths. And it's due to incompetence, dishonesty, a failure to follow the science and increasingly willful neglect. I mean, when the president is telling students and our children and their teachers and the staff of schools that he doesn't care about their health, he cares about his reelection and he views all of this through a political prism. That's when you know that we're in deep, deep trouble. And we truly are. And the world can see that. And they are just hoping that we have the sense

to bring sanity back to the White House in 2021. Your book is called Tough Love. Here we go. It's your tough love, my story of the things worth fighting for. If you were sitting in front of a group of red hat wearing MAGA people, what tough love would you give them to say why they should not vote for this man again to be given four more years? Well, look, we need leadership that recognizes fundamentally that at the end of the day, we're all Americans and we sink or swim in this country between our shores together. Right now we're sinking, but we don't have to allow that to be the case. Americans of every political persuasion are dying.

Americans of every political persuasion are losing their jobs. And what we need is leadership that puts the national interest in the interest of Americans first, regardless of where they live, regardless of how they vote, regardless of what they look like or who they worship or who they love. And we're not getting that right now. We're getting leadership that is choosing to put political self-interest above the livelihoods of all people, regardless of their political background. The president goes to Oklahoma, the heart of red America, and holds a rally without social distancing, knowing that the consequence is going to be death. Now the governor of Oklahoma has COVID and the rate of infection has spiked in the weeks since the president was there.

So how is that helping anybody? And everybody with any sense understands that as long as the infections are raging, we can't sustainably reopen our economy. We can't put people back to work, which is what we all want to do. We all want to send our kids back to school. That's not a red issue or a blue issue. We're Americans. We want to educate our kids. We want them to be safe and have the opportunity to learn.

And yet, because of this president who puts himself above everything else, that's not being it's not been possible. And he's going out of his way to rush through, deny the severity of the disease, pressure school districts and pressure politicians to follow his deadly lead. And we cannot afford that. None of us can. When we think about America standing internationally, the world has always looked to this nation to be a moral leader. Not always been the case. We've been that. What let's say Trump loses in November. What's the first thing a Joe Biden administration has to do to let the world know that that's now in our past and this is what we have to do moving forward? Well, Roland, let me answer that, but let me just put the answer in context. I think Americans need to understand that it's not a matter of simply flipping a switch

and everything goes back to a place where our leadership is immediately embraced and all is forgotten. A huge amount of damage has been done. Trusts have been broken. People can no longer believe the word of the president of the United States on matters large and small. Everything is a transaction. Our allies are treated like adversaries. Our adversaries are embraced like family members. It's absolutely upside down. Biden, who has enormous experience, great relationships, the trust and the confidence of the most important partners we have on the global stage, is a critical and absolutely necessary first step. But we will have great work to do over the course of the next administration. And it's not going to all be done in four years, maybe not even in eight years, because, Roland, understand that these very countries, particularly our closest partners, our allies in Europe, in Asia and elsewhere, no longer can be confident that what we just did over the last four years can't possibly happen again. They have to fear that, you know,

that it's conceivable that we could come back to a place like this. So their trust will come back, but it will come back slowly and it will need to be rebuilt with tangible action. So the first thing that Joe Biden should do as he enters the White House, knock on wood, in January 2021, is to reach out to our closest allies and neighbors, Canada, Mexico, our European partners, our partners in Asia, Australia, Japan, South Korea, and say to them, look, we understand that what has transpired has not been helpful. It hasn't been a partnership based on mutual interest and shared values and mutual respect. It's been bullying and transactional and based on falsehood. That is all going to change. We are back. We honor our alliance commitments. We understand that this is not a protection racket and it's not solely about dollars and cents. It's about our mutual interests and our shared security.

And we will be here with you. And then we're going to have to take steps, concrete steps, that demonstrate that commitment. So, for example, we pulled out of the Paris climate agreement unilaterally after we had negotiated it. We have to go back. We pulled out of various other important agreements like the Iran deal. We have to take a new look at that. But most importantly, we need to be clear with our allies that at the end of the day, they are what matters most to us, because our strength in the world is a function of those alliance relationships. And so, you know, President Trump recently said we're pulling a third of our forces out of Germany unilaterally without ever consulting with the German government. Reversing that step, and many others like it, is the kind of concrete thing Joe Biden will need to do on day

one. Rejoining the World Health Organization, as he said he'll do on day one. That's the sort of thing that signals that we are really back and we mean it. In your book, Tough Love, here we go to my iPad. You write about that last day, last day as national security advisor. You lay out the things that you had to deal with. And one of the things you said, I have had to spend many hours on additional tasks, briefing my successor as National Security Advisor, Lieutenant General Michael Flynn. That case is completely unraveled. You see what the Attorney General William Barr did.

And as somebody who served in that position, as somebody who was ambassador to the United Nations, to watch that and then watch how the DOJ operated and watch how Donald Trump celebrated that and then say, oh, sure, I would hire this person again. I mean, you write about these are positions of public trust. The public has to trust people like you, that you will be you will do things in the best interest of the nation and not personally. Of course. And, you know, I don't want to get into the specifics of of Michael Flynn and his circumstances. But the bottom line is that we need the best and the most committed people of integrity and experience in these critical roles. And that is something that I can promise you Joe Biden will bring. He will bring those that care deeply about this country, who are not in it for personal, financial or other form of gain that are there to do the job that the American people trust and expect them to do.

And we've time and again seen too often in the Trump administration people signing up for who aren't qualified, who don't deserve the public trust and who fail to deliver and whose only motivation is to be acolytes to Donald Trump as he destroys the fabric of our democracy and the integrity of our government. And so that urgently needs to change. You also talked about that last day, writing a particular memo that has been the subject of lots of conversation, assessing Russian activities and intentions in recent U.S. elections. We have less than 120 days. Are you still concerned that Russia will try to impact this election? And does it bother you that pretty much our nation, in terms of leaders, Mitch McConnell didn't move on a particular bill to fortify the elections? Trump doesn't care that even with all this evidence,

their whole deal is like, eh, we're fine, we're good. Yes, Roland, I'm deeply worried about it. Russia has not stopped for a minute trying to undermine and weaken our democracy. It did. It interfered to assist Donald Trump in 2016. But it has been active every day since that election, including in the 2000s, but just on, you know, every average day, trying to deepen the divisions that exist in American society and pit Americans against each other, causing us to distrust and hate each other and not believe in the integrity of our democratic institutions. The Russian objective is to discredit democracy and weaken the United States.

And it can accomplish that goal if it gets on the Internet, as it does every day, and argues on every side of every divisive issue, whether it's race or guns or immigration or gay rights. And they're out there spinning truths and falsehoods to divide us. And that is a very serious threat. into the same kinds of misinformation, suppression of voter interest, and selling of lies and discredited theories that they did in 2016. I fully expect that in this year, in 2020. And Americans need to be prepared. And yes, it's a travesty that Mitch McConnell and Senate Republicans refuse to enact legislation that's been sitting on

their floor for months to shore up the integrity of our elections and make it much more difficult for Russia or any other foreign player to do what it seeks to do. They won't provide the funding. They won't pass the legislation that would protect our elections. And the only explanation that one rationally can come up with is because they are prepared to welcome that assistance from Russia and other adversaries as long as they feel it's beneficial to them, again. A couple of questions about Africa.

Here we are now, we are dealing, seven of the 10 fastest growing economies are African nations. The population growth from the motherland as well. China, significant investment in African nations. Has this nation dropped the ball in terms of not recognizing what that future could look like. Have we done enough to stand with African nations to help them economically, to work with them? Can we do more? Yes, we absolutely can do more and we should do more. And, Rowan, we should view this opportunity to be better partners with Africa as not a matter of charity or humanitarian assistance, even though there's good motive in doing that. It's in our national interest to have partners in Africa that are growing, that are prospering, that are providing greater freedoms and greater

benefits to their peoples. Africa is a vast continent of enormous talent, extraordinary resources, and great potential. And if we are absent or disinterested or under-resourced in our efforts to engage in Africa, we are missing an opportunity. We're missing economic opportunities, we're missing market opportunities, but most importantly, we're missing an opportunity to grow with the talent and the potential of an extraordinary collection of peoples on that continent. And, you know, there's much we should be doing. We should be promoting peace and conflict resolution. We should be shoring up democracy and respect for human rights. We should be opening our markets further to African goods and spurring investment from the United States in Africa, providing more in the way of political risk insurance. We do some of

these things, more or less, depending on the administration. We should be investing in bringing electrification to parts of Africa, training and supporting the development of youth and talent and education, agricultural resources, health and trying to improve health care infrastructure in Africa, all of these things. And yet, you know, in recent years in particular, I think much of our engagement with Africa has been viewed primarily through the prism of competition with China, which is necessary, but far from sufficient. And as a result, we have really scaled back our vision and our ambition for what the U.S.-Africa relationship can be. You are on Vice President Biden's shortlist to be his VP nominee. Most of the folks, obviously, who are being considered are not necessarily talking about it. Our audience, mostly African-Americans, got a lot of white fans as well. So we certainly appreciate that. What would you what would you say to black America if Susan Rice becomes a nominee? What would you say? Why? Why that matters and what you bring. That's important. Well, Roland, first of all, I have to say it is really humbling and an honor to be among those reportedly being considered

for the vice presidency by Joe Biden. And he has an extraordinary list of women, any of whom I think would do a great job in that role. And I think it's going to be very hard for him to go wrong. So everybody brings a different set of skills, experiences and talents. And they're all exceptional. My experience and what I would bring to a partnership with Joe Biden on behalf of the country is my years of experience at senior levels in the executive branch. For over 15 years, almost two decades, I've worked in the White House and in the State Department and at the United Nations in the top tiers of our federal government.

And when I was national security advisor, I was responsible for chairing and coordinating the cabinet-level committee of agencies that had to deal with every crisis that fell on our plate, whether it was the rise of ISIS or the Ebola epidemic and everything in between. So what I know is how to make decisions to forge policy out of different agencies with different budgets and different interests and constraints, how to get stuff done. And in a moment when the next president will inherit, assuming it's Joe Biden, a pandemic, an economic recession, a racial justice movement that needs to be fulfilled. And as we've discussed, our plummeting leadership role in the world,

the need to have the government firing on all cylinders and being able to address those multiple simultaneous challenges is greater than ever. So my experience is in getting things done at the highest levels of government. I understand national security, foreign policy, diplomacy, obviously intimately, but I also understand many of the domestic issues that will inevitably arise. And I would be honored to be able to assist Joe Biden in whatever capacity he thinks that I can best serve. You mentioned the issue of racial justice. That is going to be a significant domestic agenda. I have argued that in this moment of the reckoning, we're really operating in what I call the

third reconstruction. And so we're seeing these changes. We're seeing, I mean, it's been nine weeks since the death of George Floyd, and we've seen significant amounts of change. But really to deal with the inequality in this country, it is going to take massive reinvestment by this country, a massive plan. Some call, you know, an urban Marshall Plan, if you will, to deal with these difficult challenges. Have you thought about that and how major that needs to be and to keep people focused on that? The first reconstruction lasted 12 years. The second one lasted 14 years. I mean, this is something that's not going to just one bill. Here you go. We're good. This is going to have to be a real commitment or Dr. King wrote in Chaos and Community.

Where do we go from here? He said it's a check America's going to have to write that is never really want to write before. Well, Roland, I've thought a lot about it, as as many of us have. And, you know, to me, we've had this extraordinary movement following the tragic murder of George Floyd. And thus far, that movement has really resulted concretely only in some flags and some statues being retired. And that's not nearly enough. That is, in my judgment, a missing of this moment. As gratifying as it may be to see the Confederate flag come down from the statehouse in Mississippi or from NASCAR, that's not what this is about. Systemic racism, in my judgment, requires systemic reform.

And whether you call it a third Reconstruction or a new New Deal or whatever the terminology you prefer, to me, we need a president like Joe Biden in the White House with the commitment and the vision and the passion to address these systemic requirements. And we need change in the Senate and sustaining the House, because without all three, we're not going to get this done. Look at the Justice in Policing Act, the George Floyd Act, good piece of legislation passed by the House. Do you think Mitch McConnell's going to let that thing go anywhere in any recognizable form in the Senate? No. And there's nothing radical or ridiculous or, you know, even aggressive in

that legislation. So that's emblematic of the problem. And to address this moment with a movement worthy of it and results that reflect that movement, we're going to need a sustained package of legislation that deals with all of the inequities from the lack of jobs and economic opportunity to health care, to education, to housing, to the environments that we live in that are killing us. All of these things are going to have to come together. And we need to implement them in a way that recognizes that they are born of historic and systemic inequality and racism, but that also brings along all Americans. Because it's not only us, as much as this moment has been about African Americans, we also have to be mindful of how systematic reform can lift up all of us and reduce the disparities that have become so glaring in our society.

I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley

comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1. Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute

Season 1. Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, two, and three on May 21st, and episodes four, five, and six on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Folks, Susan Rice, the book is called Tough Love, My Story of the Things Worth Fighting For. Glad to have you on the show. Look forward to you coming back.

Great to be with you, Roland. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks a lot. Take care. All right, folks, let's go to my panelists, Derek Holley and Rob Richardson. Rob, I'll start with you. She's on the short list. Your thoughts. What do you think? Well, I mean, she'd be a great pick. I think she has a firm understanding of the moment. She served under President Barack Obama and she understands the urgency of this moment. Like there has to be a real bold commitment to the black community in particular. And then our whole nation, you look at what has to be done. We have to invest.

I really like the way you talk about a third reconstruction. You know, right before the reconstruction, some of the most progress we've ever made in this nation, this is when we got basically the train system. This is when we got land grant colleges. This is when the South, you know, decided to get out of the union. And during that time, we got a lot of things to move forward. That's just a fact. And so what we're going to need is an investment in a 21st century infrastructure plan, one that invests not only in roads and bridges, but actually broadband. We're seeing that our kids don't have the resources that they need in this post-COVID-19 world. And COVID-19 operated as a short-term disruptor, but a

long-term accelerator. It is accelerating the inequalities that are already built in. So we need to make investments in our infrastructure like broadband, not only to help schools, but to help our businesses. Like if you don't have high quality access to high quality broadband, you're not going to be able to do business. You can't do this. You can't hardly do business now. Everybody does business and networking now by what? By Zoom. If you don't have something quality, Zoom, Skype, you're not going to be able to do business. So we have to really reimagine and have bold leadership because we've had no leadership in this White House. Derek Holley. Yes.

Your assessment, the systemic racism that your your assessment of Susan Rice in terms of her potentially being a VP nominee. Has come from both Democrats and Republicans. Yeah, the operative word is white. There you go. And to think that this one white man, Joe Biden, is going to pull America together and get rid of all that's been going on, I think it would be foolish on anybody's

part. And I think we need to take the politics out of it, Democrat and Republican, in order to fix it. That's the only way it would be foolish on anybody's part. And I think we need to take the politics out of it, Democrat and Republican, in order to fix it. That's the only way it can be fixed in terms of what's going on in this country with black people right now. Because it was brought on by white people who are both Democrats and Republicans. Right, which is why

I said to her that this is not going to be just one bill. Okay, it's all done. I said the first reconstruction was 12 years. The second one was 14 years. We have to look at this in order to deal with the issue. You have to be thinking in terms of 10, 20, 30 years, massive reinvestment, not just politically, but also when you talk about foundations, when you talk about corporate, that's why when the conversations that I've had with people, I'm not just interested in this $5 million or $10 million grant. I'm like, no, I'm talking about the creation of $1 to $10 billion funds to be able to deal with this. Yeah, I agree.

And I would just say with Rob. Hold on, hold on. Derek, then Rob. Derek, go. I was going to say, Rob, you know, you talked about having broadband and bringing all these services to underserved, underprivileged communities. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was on a call on Monday or Tuesday. I said on about two and a half hours, it was with our school board in terms of opening school for my son who's got to go back. And so and they obviously, distant learning, but there was a one B, a B part to that,

and they wanted kids who were disadvantaged, who had special needs to come back to school to get face-to-face three to four days a week. Okay. Well, everybody fought against that. Everybody fought against that because it was like, we've got to do distant learning, distant learning. But meanwhile, we've got these same kids who don't have broadband, who don't have internet, continue to fall behind.

And that's a problem. Rob, go ahead. It definitely is a problem. And all these people that are just so, I'm not saying this to Derek, but I hear a lot of conservatives out there saying they want kids back, but they're not supporting funding. They don't support funding for schools. Like, take several seats if you're not actually supporting funding because you're not really trying to solve the problem.

Second part I will say is that I agree with you that the problem is bipartisan when it comes to racism. That is structural. What I will say at this moment is, though, there has to be a total rejection of Trumpism. He is a symptom, but he is now taking something, and he's been the leader of trying to divide a long race, of trying to embrace white supremacy, of trying to make it OK to embrace, I mean, Nazism and things like that. He's done these things. So like that has to be rejected outright, wholly, not necessarily to elect Democrats, but to show a message that this is not who America is to move forward. Otherwise, they're going to continue to use these methods. So that has to be done for that reason. So in order to have advancement, we need to reject the current environment that is Trumpism. It's not even Republican. I'm going to call it Trumpism, racism. They're using it more than anybody ever has. And we need to say that there is no place

for that in America. That message has to be said loud and clear. Our next story, the murder of Rayshard Brooks by Garrett Roth is an ongoing case, and the Fulton County District Attorney, Paul Howard, is dealing with that, as well as his runoff election for the Democratic nomination. A number of challenges he faces. Also, the decision to, of course, charge cops who attacked those two students when, of course, you had the protests. Paul Howard joins us right now. Fulton County D.A. Glad to have him back on Roland Martin Unfiltered. Sir, how you doing? Doing great, Roland. Glad to see you and really honored to be on the program with Susan Rice. Indeed, indeed. And we also want to start this first before we even get into these other cases.

You're there. You're there in Atlanta today. We lost an absolute legend, Lyon, in Reverend C.T. Vivian. Yes, we did. I spoke with Ambassador Young earlier during the day. And what he said is, you know, he hopes to get to be 96 himself. But it's a great loss. He was a great friend. He has done so much for our community. He's the kind of person that can never be replaced. And all of us are just sad with his passing. And we're going to just for all the folks who are watching right now, we're going to be paying tribute to him. We have a number of people who are lined up in addition. And then we're going to be playing the one hour interview that I did with him. We have a number of people who are lined up in addition, and then we're going

to be playing the one hour interview that I did with him. That's absolutely amazing because that's kind of guy that he was. D. Howard, let me ask you this here. It has been absolutely stunning to listen to all of these police who are now angry. The police commissioner in New York says, we've gone too far. We've taken tools away from cops, which I'm trying to figure out what was taken away. What, banning chokeholds? In Atlanta, all these police officers who were upset because cops were fired in the case where you charged them as well. As a district attorney, look, you have to deal with police. You got cases there. But to me, what offends me as a citizen is this whole notion that the moment a district attorney

holds a police officer accountable, the entire police force says, the hell with you, that's wrong what you did. And so we're, and then we're going to go after you. It is if they cannot be held accountable by anybody. That's that's. Yeah. And let me tell you, I believe that's the reason that what we see in this country is a continuous role of African-American men and women and other minorities being killed by the police because in many ways the police departments are accepting the conduct. They are encouraging the conduct. And I believe that one of the things that we have not done as a country is made a full inspection of police unions. And as you know, the police unions are a very important part of the very kind of culture that you're talking about. That's what we've seen in Atlanta. As soon as we prosecuted the first

police officer in 2002, we heard the same refrain. Mr. Howard, you made a rush to judgment. Mr. Howard, what you're doing is political. And we've heard it ever since. And this is what you hear all over the country. But I am glad now that the young people are stepping forward. And what they're saying is we are not going to continue to put up with this system. And when you look at the protest and when you look at what's been happening in the streets when you look at all of a sudden when people talk about defund the police they're not saying we're going to just get rid of police departments and fire everybody what they're saying is

shift resources everything in the country can't be solved by law enforcement just like you're the da uh Everything can't be solved by throwing somebody in jail. That's why you have options in terms of whether it's counseling, whether it's rehab, whether it's community service. At some point, this nation

has to get out of law and order, throw them away, lock up the key, because you can't afford it. Well, I think, Roland, already what you've seen is the Republican Party, they've already hijacked the use of the term defund the police department. What people in our communities are talking about, they're not just talking about stripping money away from the police randomly. But what they are saying is the police need

standards. They need goals that they have to meet, just like you and I have to meet goals. I think that one of those standards that should be set is that the police should not kill citizens. Suppose we said that in order for you to receive your funding, you have to not kill people. There are many other conditions that we can set for policemen. And if they don't reach those conditions, then I think their funding should be affected. One of the things that we can do, particularly with this continuous killing of black and minorities, suppose we said to the policemen that at the end of the year, all of you guys received a 5% raise if you just didn't kill anybody. So this is an opportunity for us to get really creative. Wow, I haven't heard that before.

I haven't heard that before, yes. You got to be creative. And what people are talking about, they're not just talking about throwing policemen out of their communities, helter skelter. But what people are talking about is restructuring the way that they're funding so that it forces the police to adopt new standards for them to police differently, to make sure that it's constitutional, that it's nonviolent. And that funding mechanism is an important way of getting it done. We have seen also a serious attack on progressive prosecutors. Donald Trump has been very clear. Bill Barr has been clear. Pete Sessionsessions before him. There are people and especially black district attorneys. We're seeing an increase in those numbers. I mean, I remember when you talk about black DAs. I remember when Craig Watkins became the first black DA ever in the history of Texas.

And now Dallas County has had two consecutive black DAs. That's something that people are not paying attention to. Have you have you thought about that? Have you have you talked about that with your fellow black DAs across the country, how there is there is this target on the back of progressive black DAs or black DAs, period, who don't want to operate as the way other DAs used to in the past, where essentially they were completely so pro law enforcement that the community did not trust they could ever really hold law enforcement accountable? Well, we've talked about it quite a bit because what you've described is a reality. There's been a effort to intimidate the DAs. You know what happened with Marilyn Mosby in Baltimore when she decided to file arrest warrants and indict police officers for killing Freddie Gray.

If you look at the D.A. in St. Louis, who has just been almost been not been able to perform her duties. Kim Gardner, Kim Gardner, Kim Gardner having to file lawsuits and and people don't realize, Roland, that in retaliation, most of her staff now has joined the police unit. I mean, just imagine being a district attorney and that consequence taking place. We know about the DA in Orlando, Florida, who is the governor tried to remove her from handling death penalty and murder cases. So this is something that's been going on over the whole country. And now what people are talking about, let's just remove these guys. Reverend Sharpton mentioned, I was on his show last week, and what he said to me is, is that you have become the poster child for the Republican Party used to intimidate other DAs. And what they want to say is we don't want you to prosecute policemen.

We don't want you to talk about reform because if you do, we're going to get rid of you. Question, Derek Hawley, your question for Paul Howard. My question is, when you talk about, a couple weeks ago, it was on Rolling show and we talked about Tim Scott's bill that he had introduced in terms of police reform.

And in his bill, he had mentioned a lot of the things that you're talking about in terms of incentives for the states in order for them to in order for these police departments to change what they were supposed to do. They would have to they wouldn't receive funding unless they adhere to some of these standards. So I think what I'm hearing you say is that you would be in agreement with police reform as long as it, if it was dictated by funding that came federally to these different states. Am I, is that what I'm? Yeah, absolutely. Could you imagine if somebody hired you as the bodyguard for your family and while you were the bodyguard, you happened to kill two or three of your family members?

I think one of the first things that people would say is, hey, I can't pay you your salary until you stop killing my family members that I paid you to guard in the first place. I believe it's a very, a way that we can now start conversations, but we can also start to require policemen to follow a certain conduct because we can make it a contractual arrangement based upon funding. And if you don't meet certain goals

and certain standards, then that funding would be reduced based upon the failure to reach those standards. I like that, D.A. Howard. I like that a lot. Rob, your question for D.A. Paul Howard. Yeah, by the way,

thank you for all that you do. I would say, you know, I want to follow up with what Derek said, because I think there's some difference here. I believe you were saying it's much more effective to make sure that we hold police unions and police accountable to get rid of qualified immunity so you can be held accountable for the actions that you do. Because that's really the argument at the federal level.

I want to say that's, you know, most of the funding that happens happens at the state level. So two, one, from the federal level, do you agree that it's much more effective and you really are going to be able to move the ball if you get rid of qualified immunity? You make that clear. If you kill somebody, you go over the line. You don't have to. You're no longer going to have protection of the state just to do that. Second, what do you think we need to do at the local level? It sounds like, I mean, do we need to push harder on the contractual level specifically? Like, what are some things we have to go after? And three, how do you think we should frame the narrative? I think defund the police is the wrong narrative to say, because it's so easy to go

after. What should the narrative be in terms of how we're framing what we're trying to do? Yeah, I agree with you. I think that, you know, we need to look at the local funding. That's where the funding comes from most police departments. I believe there are about 18,000 of them here in the United States. Their funding doesn't derive principally from the federal government. And so if you're going to make substantial changes, it has to be done locally. I think a better term that we might use rather than defunding is restructuring. Similar to what was done in Camden, New Jersey, they restructured the police department. And I think that's the appropriate term to use in this situation. One of the things that I think that we need to start talking about is to present some permanent changes in our country.

And so, Roland, I'm hoping that you'll invite me back so we can talk about I put together nine separate changes that we need to make in this country. I've worked with Kim Worthy, who is the D.A. in Wayne County, an outstanding prosecutor. And what we want to talk about are some things that if Joe Biden is the new president, when he takes office on January 21st, he ought to start by making some changes with respect to policing in America, because we can't just keep telling people that I'm for you. We need some permanent statutory and policy change. Well, absolutely. We'll certainly look forward to having you back to talk about and have that conversation. Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard, we appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Thank you for having me. And again, I appreciate being on the same program with Susan Rice. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, sir. Folks, got to go. Let me first of all,

thank Derek and Rob for being on our panel today. I certainly appreciate both of you. In fact, let's just do this here before I let both of you go. I want to give you an opportunity to, you know what, I'll hold that. Y'all stay right there. Let me go to commercial break. When we come back, we'll celebrate the life and legacy of Reverend Dr. C.T. Vivian. Folks, we've got an amazing lineup of people, Diane Nash, Ambassador Andrew Young, Harry Belafonte, so many others to share their thoughts and reflections about one of our civil rights lions, Reverend C.T. Vivian. That is next on Roland Martin Unfiltered.

You want to support Roland Martin Unfiltered? Be sure to join our Bring the Funk fan club. Every dollar that you give to us supports our daily digital show. There's only one daily digital show out here that keeps it black and keep it real. As Roland Martin Unfiltered, support the Roland Martin Unfiltered daily digital show by going to rolandmartinunfiltered.com our goal is to get 20 000 of our fans contributing 50 bucks each for the whole year you can make this possible © BF-WATCH TV 2021 He was not a large man. He was a small man, very thin, but man was he one tough SOB. Many of us deeply saddened today to hear of the passing of civil rights legend, Reverend Dr. C.T. Vivian. It is very hard for us to have to report this story.

Lived an amazing life, dying of natural causes at his Atlanta home. Cordy Tyndale Vivian always had an absolute great smile on his face from ear to ear. But man, was he tough as he battled and faced down Jim Crow. Just an amazing, amazing man. He worked alongside Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He participated in freedom riots. In 1947, he participated in his first nonviolent protest, a lunch counter sit-in in Peoria, Illinois. He was one of the founders of the Nashville Christian Leadership Conference and affiliate of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. In 1965, Vivian became the director of national affiliates for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference when he led a group of people to register to vote in Selma, Alabama.

He has done so much and left a legacy and his mark on the country. President Barack Obama awarded Vivian the highest civilian honor from the nation, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, in 2013. This was that ceremony. Reverend C.T. Vivian. Equipped only with courage and an overwhelming commitment to social justice, the Reverend C.T. Vivian was a stalwart activist on the march toward racial equality. Whether at a lunch counter, on a freedom ride, or behind the bars of a prison cell, he was

unafraid to take bold action in the face of fierce resistance. By pushing change through nonviolent demonstration and advocacy, C.T. Vivian established and led numerous organizations to support underserved individuals and communities. His legacy of combating injustice will shine as an example for generations to come. Joining us right now to pay tribute to his longtime friend and colleague is Ambassador Andrew Young. Ambassador Young.. Ambassador Young? How you doing? Man, it's always good to talk with my frat brother.

We lost a good brother in the civil rights, a good alpha. And I say at the top, C.T. Vivian was a tough S.O.B. He was, but he had one of the biggest hearts and biggest brains and smallest egos in the civil rights movement. And he just he was selfless and he never did anything to promote himself. He was always mindful of the needs of others and the cause that he had devoted his entire life to. You know, I just counted up that he started in 1947. That was, you know, eight years before Rosa Parks.

And he went to Nashville somewhere around 1960 and started working with the Nashville sit-in movement when he was actually an employee of the Baptist Publishing House, the National Baptist Publishing Company. And that's where I first met him, about 1960 in Nashville. The thing that I had a chance to sit down with him in 2017, every time I would go to events, I would see him, would definitely give a hug.

He was so appreciative. And I would always just thank. I would see him, would definitely give a hug. He was so appreciative. And I would always just thank him for his work. And when y'all were in St. Augustine, when, man, y'all caught hell there, he was right there. He was, and he stayed there to the end. And that was really the bloodiest and most brutal movement that I was in, all that I know about. Now, that doesn't count to sit the Freedom Rides. But the Freedom Ride, it went on in St. Augustine for almost two weeks,

every day. And people just confronted the Klan, confronted the Klan. What we didn't know then that we learned later on was the sheriff deputized the Ku Klux Klan to try to keep us down. Well, one of the things that was interesting, and for our viewers, you're going to be able to see this later when you see my interview with him. Ambassador Young, he talked about there being where y'all went to integrate a beach and this cop jumps on his back and drags him underwater. And he said his first thought, he just start laughing. He's like, well, if I'm going to go to go to the Lord, might as well go now. And that didn't happen.

But he said literally his first, he just started laughing. I said, are you serious? He's like, yeah. And then he said, look, he made it clear. The moment he said, the moment he started in this fight, he said, I am prepared to die for the freedom of black people. No, and he was. And he but he he was consistent for 70 some years. He just weakened about two weeks ago. He has been active mentoring young people in his C.T. Bibian Institute.

And he, you know, C.T. was the kind of fellow that stayed in shape, too. He and Jimmy Carter are the only two people I know that are the same way to 95 as they were when they graduated from college. You're absolutely right. You and I can't make that statement. No, you and I can't make that statement. We enjoy gumbo too much. He used to go

to Morris Brown on his way home from work, from the office, and run up and down the steps to stay in shape in the stadium. And he never lost his mental acuity. And he read constantly and was just a loving, faithful husband

and had some great children. Well, he absolutely just an unbelievable man. And you're right. A, I would go to events and CT was moving fast. He was walking. He was full of energy. And he said, I'm going to keep on going until I can't go anymore. That's right. Ambassador Andrew Young, it's always great to talk with you. I hate that a lot of times under

these circumstances, unfortunately, with coronavirus, we can't have our usual homegoing services, you know, when Reverend Lowry passed and others. But at least with modern day media, with digital, we get a chance to celebrate folks like Reverend C.T. Vivian and share the memories and a whole new generation can truly learn about great figures like himself, you and others. Very good. And we don't die. We just move on to another era. There you go.

Great words. And Bachelor Young, tell your wife hello. And Joe Lowry and Jose Williams are still with us because we're still calling their names. That's right. That's right. We are. Tell your wife hello, sir. God bless you.

All right, brother, take care. Folks, Bernard Lafayette worked in the civil rights movement. He's a human rights activist, co-founder of SNCC. Bernard, how you doing? I'm doing just fine. Brother, always good to see you and talk with you. We truly lost a warrior in Reverend C.T. Vivian. Yes, this is absolutely true.

And we had a special relationship because our birthday is only one day apart. And I've already bought his birthday card for July 30th. But we had a special relationship because we love to do things together. Actually, CT, when I met him as a student at the American Baptist College in Nashville, Tennessee. He used to substitute for Reverend Kelly Miller-Smith Sr. as a homiletics professor. So C.T. was teaching, preaching, in other words. And when Kelly Miller-Smith was not available, he did do that. And when you had the sit-ins, we looked around at our student body, and it was John Lewis and Jim Bevel and C.T. Vivian. And we all were right there together.

It was just couldn't be a coincidence. It was by divine providence that we were all right there together. And John Lewis. And so we started learning about the movement with Jim Lawson teaching courses and stuff like that, and CT with all of his experience and background, how is it that you could be in jail with your professor? Yeah, we were. On the Freedom Rides, we were in jail. We were cellmates, in fact, On the Freedom Rides, we were in jail. We were cellmates, in fact, on the Freedom Rides.

And one of the things we had in common is that we had a special relationship where we would do puns. And I'll never forget, there in the city jail in Jackson, Mississippi, CT and I were cellmates, and we just had a ball. And I learned so much. We were still in school. Okay? But 24 hours we were in school. Because our professors were there with us. So we actually had classes. And students who were majoring in different things, they would actually set up classes. And students who were majoring in different things, they would

actually set up classes. So we didn't just sit around doing time, wasting time. We were really busy. But the thing that I remember about CT and I used to do puns. And we were

doing puns in jail. We were cellmates. And the jailer came up and tried to get us to come out. And CT turned around and looked at him. He said, we have to finish these puns first. Of course, the jailer didn't know what a pun was. So he didn't know what that was. so he backed off and waited until we finished our puns and then we went to our trial but I had many opportunities

CT and I used to have lunch together he used to like to have soup over at six feet under there in Atlanta, Georgia. And we used to look out of the window while we were eating our lunch. And across from the restaurant six feet under was a graveyard. And we never missed the opportunity to look at the graveyard while we were eating at six feet under. So we had that ongoing relationship.

The friends who worked with Don Rivers and people like that used to bring CT to the restaurant. So we had an opportunity to eat with him and my wife, Kate Lafayette, who's from Tuskegee. So we actually had that kind of relationship and opportunity to share with each other all along. Several things I admired by CT. One is that his way of teaching people was by example, not just giving lectures as professors often do but by example his actions taught us more than his words but he had some very powerful words

in fact he was very musical when he talked it was a song that he was singing and the profound ideas and thoughts that he gave helped everybody. And when he was beaten by Jim Clark, yes, on the steps of the courthouse. You can play that video as we speak. Go ahead. That one of the lessons that he taught people was that you have to learn how to come back.

Even when you are attacked, you come back. Even when you are nonviolent and you have to face violence, you don't reciprocate with violence. You come back with nonviolence. And this is what CT did. And that's how he taught us by his comeback.

No matter what you believe in, when you are challenged, you don't abandon your goals. You don't abandon your methodology. You don't abandon your philosophy. And this is the way CT taught us to come back. And I never will separate from C.T. As Andrew Young said, we will always be together, the oneness there. And we hear C.T.'s voice and we know what it means. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith.

I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith.

I know that he is a man of faith. I know that he is a man of faith. C.T. Vivian. Thank you. Thank you very much. Joining us right now is folks, the one who worked alongside Reverend Vivian, Diane Nash. Diane, how you doing? I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time. Have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future

where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multibillion-dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Under the circumstances, it's a sad day, but other than that, I'm doing well. Well, it is always good to talk with you. Indeed, it is always great to hear your voice. You, another one of our lions, somebody who has never been afraid to stand up for what's right. I started off by saying C.T. Vivian, man, he was one tough SOB.

We showed that video. He got punched by Jim Clark. He did not walk away, and he stayed there resolute with conviction. Just your favorite thoughts and memories about C.T. Okay. First of all, I want to tell you, though, you said I wasn't afraid. I was constantly. I just did what had to be done.

But I was very afraid. I am so fortunate and so blessed to have had him as not only a co-worker in the civil rights movement, but he was always ready to listen and always had sage advice. But I met him in Nashville. I was a student at Fisk University, and he was at the American Baptist Seminary. Excuse me. We met at Jim Lawson's workshop. Lawson had been to India and had studied Gandhi's movement firsthand, and he was in Nashville teaching students

and the community and anyone who wanted to learn, really, about nonviolence as Gandhi practiced it. And C.T. was, that's where I met C.T. He was about, oh, I guess 13 years older than I am. And the ministers who were involved were 10 and more years older. And I remember being very curious about whether they were going to put us up to doing the sit-ins and getting arrested and in trouble. And I wondered if they were going to sit in and do the same things that we were and uh they did and the ct definitely um did he was in the sit-ins and later in the freedom ride

and um he was then on sdlc the southern christian leadership conference staff on the Southern Christian Leadership Conference staff. That was Dr. King's organization. I believe he was the director of affiliates because SCLC had about 50 chapters at the time. And so CT took place. He was involved in Selma, obviously, the right to vote. He was involved in the Chicago movement and was very effective in talking with the gangs and making them see that it made more sense for them to do things together to benefit the black community rather than to be fighting each other.

He was active in, I think it was, I can't think, St. Augustine or Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Oh, he was in St. Augustine. It was St. Augustine. He told me about it. And that's where a cop dripped on his back, almost drowned him in the ocean. Exactly. Now, he had, I would never have done a protest in the ocean because I don't swim well. But he survived that one.

And he was someone that had no ulterior motives. So often now we run across people who take part in demonstrations and they want to be on television or they want to run for political office or something. And C.T. sincerely wanted to improve society. He was smart. He was level-headed. He had integrity. He was courageous, truthful, and a wonderful preacher.

And he had a great sense of humor, but when necessary, he was very no-nonsense. And he was a family man. His wife, Octavia, and he were together for a lifetime until she passed away, I think about seven or eight years ago. They had six children. And the family just always seemed to be full of love. And he was not only responsible to the society, but also to his family and friends and his personal life. It is certainly a huge loss. It was always, I always talked about it was great seeing him.

And he just, he was always there. In 2016, we were at the Treasury Department where they had a ceremony commemorating a plaque for the Freedmen's Bank. He was there. I think about seeing them. I'm looking at some photos from Congressional Black Caucus, Operation Hope.

I remember Hank Stewart had his event in Atlanta. He was there. I mean, he was not somebody who was a homebody. He was always there and lending his support even to activists today that's what he's been doing yeah and he was active rolling into his 19 yeah yeah he was speaking on university campuses and he's one of those people that I can really say the world is different and much better because he lived. He made a huge difference. And today I've been wondering how we're going to navigate this troubled world without him.

Well, Ambassador Andrew Young, who was just on a few minutes ago, this is what he said. He said, Roland, he said, we don't leave. We simply move on. The fact that we still are talking about Dr. King, still talking about Hosea Williams, still talking about those legends. He said that's the case. So they're still with us. I think the key is for us to take the lessons that they gave us and keep applying them to present day. And then folks like you who are still in the fight, who are still battling, that's important as well. And I want you to know, and I still want to sit down and do a one-on-one

with you. I did with CT, with Juanita Abernathy and others. But it's also important for us, this generation, to give proper credit and tribute to folks like you who put the work in. You said you were scared, but you were still one tough cookie. And we just appreciate your work all of these years and what you did to make it better for the next generation, Diane Nash. Thank you so much, Roland. And I'll look forward to doing that sit down one on one. We're going to make it happen. Diane Nash, thank you so very much. I appreciate it for honoring Reverend C.T. Vivian. OK, bye bye. All right. Take care, folks. This is the video that was shown when C.T. Vivian got

the presidential medal of freedom from the White House. We want to share it with you. Coming up next, we're going to talk with Harry Belafonte, the legend himself. Here's C.T. Vivian. I thought, you know, unexpected, and I didn't think much about it when I was busy one thing or the other. The closer we've gotten to it, the more exciting it has become. The more you look forward to it, the more you begin to understand the kinds of things that could come as a result of this, right? That you can do some good that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. How it fits into your life's work, you see what I mean, is that everything that I have done and want to do, I created Upward Bound, right?

Is that, and just because a lot of kids got kicked out of school because of racism, right? And I kept trying to figure how we're going to make those young people leadership for a new South. And that's, I was with Dr. Martin Luther King, right? people, leadership for a new South. I was with Dr. Martin Luther King. So what we were doing was creating a new South as a part of a whole new concept of our participation in the nation. So that when you see people who are thinking like that for a lifetime, how important it is, is that

you know that it opens doors and that people take you seriously, more seriously than they did before. It sounds so pat when you say it, but where are your values? Hold on to them, right? Go with it. There's going to be a number of things you want to do. Some of them will make you far more money, but that's what you want to do. Some of them you want to do, but you won't be able to do because you just don't have it, right? And then so do what you can do and do it well, but always ask your question, is it serving people? Now, the point being is you don't have to worry about asking yourself that truthfully because you know whether you want to help folk or not, right?

And to me that's the number one thing. If you're not changing things for the benefit of the greater society, right, then you're not about much anyway, right? At the level we're talking, if it's the level for your survival, that's another thing, right? But if you're really free enough and open enough and have opportunities enough, always think about the good that it's going to do for other people because you've already been honored, right? I don't mean by medals. You've already been honored by being in a position to help somebody, right?

But if you don't get upset at seeing people hurt, suffer, put in bad situations, put in a situation they're never going to get out of for the wrong reasons. If that doesn't really make you a little angry, really, all right, angry enough to do something about it, then you wouldn't think about it anyway. Folks, joining me right now is one of my personal heroes, someone who has been a longtime freedom fighter, one of our fiercest advocates, the great Harry Belafonte. Mr. B! Hello, baby. How are you? Man, how you doing? Have not heard your voice in a long time.

Yeah. This is a sad time. It is a sad time. It is. It is. The loss of C.T. Vivian, the loss of C.T. Vivian to many of us is equal to the loss of Dr. King.

He was a tremendous force for good in this country. He was one of the stalwart leaders of the movement. He committed himself in the most dignified and most passionate way to the cause of freedom, and especially among people of color. His loss is a great loss for America, and I am very saddened that we're having this discussion. A lot of folks talk about he was an amazing preacher.

And we don't think about it that way, but people forget he was Reverend C.T. Vivian. So many of these folks were reverends as well. I mean, they were, I mean, they were moral, spiritual leaders who were putting it all on the line. That's right. That was him.

I am so sad. I feel almost disoriented with the passing of C.T. Vivian as I did with the passing of Dr. King. Heian as I did with the passing of Dux the King. He was a great, great warrior. And we shall miss him

dearly. And his voice and his courage and his wisdom. One of the things that people forget, these folks were humans. They were regular, ordinary people who did extraordinary things. Beyond the fight for civil rights, how was he just as a person?

He was a man that was filled with nothing but love to the human race. His compassion and his commitment to the freedom of humanity was unequaled. I think that the loss of C.G.P. to the N.E.A.S. is something that many of us will not get over quickly. But you know what, Mr. B? You know what, Mr. B? You know what, Mr. B? I think, and just as somebody who's been a journalist, you know, for the last 20 plus years, I think part of the problem, which I think is very difficult, is that a lot of people really focus on just Dr. King or just the large figures, but they forget there were so many others who fortified them, who were part of these strategy sessions, who were involved. When you think about Diane Nash and James Bevel and Bernard Lafayette and James Orange

and Hosea Williams and Septima Clark, and we could go on and on and on, that these were, they were all giants. And it wasn't just one or two figures who somehow rose above the others. Yes. Our movement was larger than any one personality. And although Dr. King was a leader beyond compare, one who led us beautifully to the conclusions of success that we've experienced,

was not a march he held on his own. He had many powerful warriors by his side, instructing him, guiding him, giving him the benefit of their wisdom on strategy. And C.T. Vivian was a heavy, heavy player in that world. We shall miss him dearly. Last question for you, sir. And I hate saying last question to you because I can listen to you all day. That's why I always enjoyed us getting together for lunch and dinner.

He's 95. Reverend Lauer was 98. You just celebrated what, 93rd? 93rd. You said it again? Yeah. So many years. What do you want folk today? What do you want them, folk today, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 50 years from now, to know and understand about you and legends like Reverend Vivian and the work they put in?

What do you want them to know? I think that we must pause and accept the fact that the movement, Black Lives Matter, has stepped into the breach and is making magnificent contributions to the objectives of liberation being waged by black people all over the world, let alone just this country. And I think that the example left by C.T. Vivian, the example left by Dr. King, the example left by Fannie Lou Hamer and Ella Baker and so many others has been an indelible part of the success of our history. And I think their passion has left a great void.

But I'm convinced that the young people have gotten the message. And when I look at what's going on with Black Lives Matter, when I look at what's going on with Black Lives Matter, when I look at what's going on with the women's movement, what went on with the women in the global mobilization recently, I think we're on the right path. And it's a contribution these men and women made.

The group I just mentioned is a great gift to our cause. They shall be missed dearly. I said this to Diane Nash. I say it to you every single time I get to see you and talk, that we owe an absolute debt of gratitude, not just for what you did, but what you continue to do. You have slowed down, but the fight is still in you.

It is still there. What was passed on from you from Paul Robeson, well, you have passed on to other people. And I just want you to know, and again, I say it every time, that we appreciate you, we thank you, and we love all that you have done, all that you will continue to do. Harry Belafonte, my brother, thank you so very much. Thank you so much for continuing our struggle

and bringing your voice to our cause so magnificently. We love you. Love you, love you, love you. I appreciate it. Tell your wife hello. Take care, buddy. Thanks a lot. Whew. Take care, buddy. Thanks a lot. Again, you know, folks, these are folks who I've met, I've talked to, I've interviewed, got a chance to know.

And I'm telling you, just when Thurgood Marshall died, I was working at the Austin American Statesman, and I was connected with the great Barbara Jordan. And Barbara Jordan told this story. She told this story about just sitting at his feet, just sitting at his feet and learning, listening to him. And that's really what I've always enjoyed when it comes to Harry Belafonte, when it comes to Reverend C.T. Vivian, when it comes to Ambassador Andrew Young and so many others, the ability just to be in their presence

and listen and learn. I guarantee you my next guest believes in that as well. John Hope Bryant is the founder of Operation Hope. He joins us right now. John, you and I knew C.T. Vivian very well. He was with you when they did the dedication to the Freedmen's Bank and the Treasury Department in January of 2016. Hell of a loss of a lion. Yeah. First of all all thank you for doing this uh roland i i got a call from ambassador young just a moment ago i said why are you calling me i'm about to go on about to go on you got off now your deal is done you want to call me and mess up my train of

thought um you know i try even though he's my play father, I call him Ambassador Andrew Young. I don't call him Andy or Andrew Young. I call him Ambassador Andrew Young. I call Reverend C.T. Vivian, Reverend C.T. Vivian. And, you know, I was looking at Diane Nash, who, I mean, Roland, fine, smart, you know, super-intelligent, committed, could have done anything she wanted to as a young lady,

was focused on this movement. Harry Belafonte, handsome, smart, charismatic, could have just gone and done Hollywood, exclusively focused on this movement. And, you know, it was leaders like Dr. King and Ambassador Young and John Lewis, who was in a parallel path, but still the same movement.

Dorothy Hite, Reverend C.T. Vivian. Their integrity rooted everybody. And, you know, everybody's been saying these real somber stories. These are very serious and understandably so. I'd like to bring a little levity to the discussion about Reverend C.T. Vivian, if you don't mind. I sent you some discreet photos while you were interviewing. Well, actually, I'm showing right now. I'm trying to see if I can pull them up.

But right now, this is the photo here. This is from a dedication to the Treasury Department. You're sitting, this is the back of y'all head, so sorry. This is y'all sitting together. And then this is the photo here of the three of us having a good laugh while about to interview the two of you. And so he was a road dog for you, but go right ahead.

Yeah, so in no particular order, I'm going to tell you. So Reverend Vivian would study everything and everyone. I think Ms. Nash mentioned this. And he wouldn't mess with you unless you were serious. So he wanted to make sure I was serious. And he would look at me and he'd observe. And then I don't know what order this came from, but we started to warm the relationship up.

And one day he called me out of the blue and said, I want to come see you. The legend says he wants to come see you. Just say what time? Yeah. Would you like me to come to your office? No, no. What's your address?

And he came to my home, and I sent you, I think I sent you one of those photos in the library. If I didn't, I will send it to you. A candid shot. We're in the library in my house. And he said, I've read your book, this works in capitalism three times. You're onto something. He said, the next movement is about money and economics and party eradication. This is where Dr. King was going. What's the plan? I want to talk. He loves saying that, Doc, we've got to get serious about this. Let me tell you what my ideas are here. And he laid all his thoughts out methodically. Now, he's 90. He'll be going on 96 now.

I mean, he had to be 90, Roland, when he was having this conversation with me. Lucid, focused. He would walk at 90, 91 years old a mile a day. This is his private. This is a private doctor, Dr. Vivian. And he wanted to know what my plan was and what I was going to do about it. Or was I just running my mouth? And if I was serious about it, he was going to join me and help me. And I'll tell you, I got so I sort of had a man crush on him and he didn't know me as long as Ambassador Young knew me.

So he didn't have the context. And I hug people. People know me. You know, I hug you. I say I love love you i've got a problem my manlyhood so i tell a brother i love you so i went up at an event and i said i love you dr vivian i love you and i kissed him on his forehead and he gave me this look he gave me this look he'd never given me before and he didn't say anything and about two or three weeks later, either I called him or he called me, and we had a very honest relationship. So he said, now, Doc, you know, you told me you love me. Yeah. Well, you know, I respect you, John, and we're good friends.

And I had to remember, like,'s 90 you know whatever he is oh how we're you know i had to remember he's from another era brothers don't say i love you to other men and don't kiss them you don't kiss another man before you so i was like yo yo yo we're good we're good i love you like spiritually love you he's like oh oh okay we're cool and and then it was on the mission the work now i don't know if he was joking because he had a wicked sense of humor or whether he was serious but but but but it was real like it was authentic and that was him all the time i sent you a photo of him it It was always cutting edge. I know.

So as you're talking, I don't want to know as you're talking, what I'm doing is I'm actually sending them to the iPad. And so I want to put them in a slideshow. So you just keep talking. I'm working over here while you're talking. So go ahead. I sent you a photo of him looking at an iPad. I had my iPad.

We were at dinner, me and Bachelor Young him. Don Rivers is like his road dog. Nothing happened. Don Rivers was to Reverend C.T. Vivian, Presidential Medal of Freedom Award, and Andrew Young was to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the consigliere, the chief lieutenant, the chief strategist. Don Rivers gets no credit for all the great stuff he did. But anyway, he was there with us.

And Reverend Bibby said, what are you doing? I said, I'm looking at my iPad, looking at my schedule for tomorrow. He said, well, let me see it. And so I gave him my iPad. And there's a shot that I sent to you of him illuminated by the iPad.

There's another picture I sent to you of him talking, had to be two or three years ago, with young brothers in a group called Just Brothers here in Atlanta. Again, he's 93 years old at this point, leaning in, man, leaning in,

not giving an inch, not saving a breath, giving it 100%. He's got his one shot. Now, Ambassador Young's younger than, there you go. Ambassador Young's younger than C.T. Vivian, but Ambassador Young's chilling in a wheelchair letting somebody push him in the airport going to D.C. And C.T.'s huffing it.

He's walking ahead of Ambassador Young and the aides. And C.T. had to be 93 at that point. That's what Secretary Jack Lew in the Treasury Department, where Secretary Lew renamed the Treasury Annex Building the Freedman's Bank Building in honor of former slaves. This was something Reverend Vivian called me and said, John, you don't realize how important. That's what we did. I interviewed at Ebenezer Church. He said, I don't think you realize how important is renaming of this Freedman's Bank is. He started talking to me about getting by economics, about the poor people's campaign. Dr. King's last movement about about poverty.

You know, I got to be there. And we got to emphasize to the Secretary of the Treasury what needs to be done to provide access to capital for poor and struggling entrepreneurs and small business owners. This is the next movement. By the way, Roland, where are we at now? Isn't that the discussion right now? The thing that C.T. Vivian, Reverend C.T. Vivian, pointed to as a light on the hill. I want to play something for you because I want to get your thoughts. He also had a massive book project that people don't realize. This is, folks, let me set this thing up, so just give me one second. Guys, I want you to go to, because I'm playing on my iPad, so just give me a second.

So, Henry, go ahead. Are you seeing this? Go ahead and play this. Pull the audio, please. The interview with Reverend C.T. Vivian. As you see here. That would be over the shoulder, basically. Yeah. Oh.

Can I see? Yeah. Is that on the camera? Yeah, it's on. He's a connector. You know that? He has his camera, which, matching-wise, it'd have to be. John, what was amazing about this is, I mean, being in his house is like a museum.

But he had this book project, and just correct me if I'm wrong, he was trying to collect the first edition of every book published by an African-American? Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of his many projects, including outrunning me and you, probably a jogging project. I mean, this guy, I can't, that house where you saw, he would leave that house and walk a mile or two every day around that house just to keep his joints strong. I don't know many people your age who can walk a mile or two a day. He was 90 plus years old. Yes, he was an intellectual giant. He was.

He read my book, one of my books, three times before he called me. Imagine what else he read. Right. Certainly. Just an absolutely unbelievable person. You get that photo of him with the iPad. I just sent it to you again. Yeah, hold on. Yeah, I do have that one. Let me see if I can pull it up. Where is it? I'm looking on here.

I think here it is right here. All right, that's the photo right there. We're at dinner, and Ambassador Young and he and I were having this thoughtful conversation, but he wanted to know what, he was nosy, like, what are you doing on that iPad? Why are you not sharing it with me? And he didn't want me to tell him what was on it, he wanted to see it himself. He wanted to be part

of the future in every way, and he was going to orchestrate it. Oh, here's this great shot. Oh, my God. I'm sending it to you. This is like going down memory lane, man. This guy, this is when he

bogarted himself into my house where he said, I'm coming to see you. What's your address? Now, this is a young lady stopping him outside of the Treasury Department. Again, Ambassador Young is supposedly the icon. He doesn't mind me saying this. He doesn't have a self-esteem problem. And this is a lady lady stopping him outside of the Treasury Department. Again, Ambassador Young is supposedly the icon. He doesn't mind me saying this. He doesn't have a self-esteem problem. And this is a lady

stopping Reverend Vivian because she was so enthralled with him. That's inside of my, that's when he came to see me. And you see he's got a book in his hand. Even there, it's not my book. He pulled up another book. Sorry, that's where his, that's the book he was, that's his book that he was taking notes in.

Yeah, he was an absolutely's his book that he was taking notes in yeah he was a he was an absolutely committed uh learner someone who was committed uh to uh and and and and you had to look go to my opinion look on your face it's sort of like how i was with him and how i was with harry belafonte you just shut up and listen just shut up and listen but here's the crazy but here's the crazy thing though and last question for you john what's crazy is that we want to shut up and listen. Just shut up and listen. But here's the crazy thing, though, and last question for you, John. What's crazy is that we want to shut up and listen, and they want to shut up to listen. That's right. That's right. I'm like, okay, I'm not trying to talk. I want you to talk. No, no, no, no. I want to hear you. So this is a difference between leaders today and iconic transformational leaders of the 20th century.

There's deep in this ethos. And we've got to get people. God gave you two ears and one mouth. So you listen twice as much as you talk. And there's no limit to what you can do when you're not concerned with who got the credit. Andrew Young, Ambassador Andrew Young, and Dr. C.T. Vivian were not trying to beat Dr. King. They weren't player hating. They weren't jealous. They weren't hogging the camera. They were there for service. They were servant leaders. And as a result of that, the world has given them everything because they wanted nothing, Roland. The world has given

them everything. They didn't want for a thing. Everybody wanted to host them, toast them, give them free cars, whatever, which they would not take. I mean, there's so much I cannot tell about what Ambassador Young and C.T. Vivian did not accept that they could have, which would have personally enriched them, but did not accept because they thought it would look bad on them. They thought that poor people and other folks should get the opportunity. And so they sent it someplace else. We need today leaders like Harry Belafonte in entertainment, like Ms. Nash in the intellectual sciences and in civil society, like Reverend C.T. Vivian in the pulpit and in the streets and in the suites and Ambassador Andrew Young in our hearts, our lives, in our homes. These are givers, man. They're not focused on what they get. They focus on what they have to give.

And whatever goes around comes around. And I don't know about you, Roland, but one of my greatest blessings in the world is just being able to hang around them. The only reason I'm not entirely sad today is that Reverend Vivian was almost 96. I talked to his son, Al Vivian. He was not sad. They had made peace with it. I talked to Ambassador Young. He had lived his life. He had did everything, and he's been promoted. I know he's sitting to the side of the Father right now, our Father, our God, and chilling and asking, what's my next assignment? Now, we've got to honor him by getting back to work. And we're in a moment right now that's historic, and we've got to not let this fall by the wayside.

We all have to get to work. And we've got to do more of what you're doing here is make sure that Reverend Vivian's name is bigger in so-called death than it was in life. He is still with us. We're not human beings having a spiritual experience. We're spiritual beings having a human experience. Energy matters, and souls are forever. And he's with us forever. Absolutely.

John Hope Bryant, I certainly appreciate it, man. Thank you so very much. Peace and light. Folks, last year, Reverend Joseph Lowry had his 98th birthday celebration. Ambassador Andrew Young was there. Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr. was there. Reverend C.T. Vivian was there. Folks, this was 180-plus years of wisdom.

I was the emcee of the event. We live-streamed this event, and we were looking for the video, could not find the video. So I hit up Cheryl Lowry, the daughter of Reverend Dr. Joseph Lowry, and she got me in contact with Casey Wright, who was the videographer. And folks are obviously in front of all this, but you can see his head. You can't see Reverend Lowry, but this was Reverend C.T. Vivian celebrating his longtime friend, Reverend Joseph Lowry, on the birthday. Y'all, this was a few months ago. October, it's October 2019.

Both of them are no longer with us. Watch this. C.T. Vivian stepped over. He wanted to say a couple of words to his longtime friend, Reverend Dr. Lowry. Reverend Vivian? Now, let me tell you, is that just a half a dozen of fellows that have been here, gone through it all, and made a clear effort of it all. And did good things for many young people. And you don't know which is best, but both are good.

And he's done it and continued to do it. And even when he wasn't doing it, his friends were because of him. And that's rare. A hundred and ninety combined years of wisdom right here. Give it up for Reverend C.T. Vivian. Folks, it was great to be there. One of the reasons why it's important for you to support what we do at Roland Martin Unfiltered is for moments like this. The reality is Reverend C.T. Vivian did not get his just due on the cable networks today. I haven't seen it. I don't even know if he was even mentioned on the evening newscast.

But this was a giant, an absolute giant. There were some other folks who we wanted to have on. Bernice King, she had an emergency. Reverend James Lawson, who trained Reverend C.T. Vivian in the Nashville movement. We had some issues. We're going to try to get him on Monday because I really want his reflections. And so stick with us because you're about to see my one-on-one interview with C.T. Vivian's and wait until you hear what he says about not being afraid to die. Y'all going to be blown away. But this is why we want you to support Roland Martin on the filter. This is why we want you to join our Bring the Funk fan club.

Nobody else is going to do this kind of tribute. No black website. You're not going to see this on TV One, on OWN, on BET, on BET Her, on Cleo TV, on Bounce, on Aspire. You're not going to see this even on Revolt. You're not going to see this. This is why we matter. This is why independent black owned media matters. More than 5,000 of you on YouTube, y'all can join right there. Y'all can also join us by simply our cash app, PayPal, Venmo, or send a course of money order to New Vision Media, Inc., NU Vision Media, Inc., 1625 K Street, NW, Suite 400, Washington, D.C., 2006. Normally, we end the show on Friday showing you all of our charter club members. We're not going to do that today because I want to get right to my one-on-one interview.

This was done in October 2017 in preparation for MLK 50th, which was the commemoration of the assassination of Reverend Dr Martin Luther King jr. This interview took place in the home of Reverend CT Vivian Absolutely stunning and we did this because we wanted to make sure that we had the voices of our elders on video and Even when they moved on the voices of our elders on video. And even when they moved on, they will still be able to speak to future generations. And so please, I hope you enjoy my one-on-one interview with Reverend C.T. Vivian.

Hey, are we ready? All right. Reverend Vivian. Yes. Finally good to sit down and chat with you. Same, my brother. 93 years. You've seen a heck of a whole lot in 93 years.

Yeah. Did you think we would be where we are now with the madness of Donald Trump sitting in the White House? All of you seeing all that you've gone through, all that you fought for. Let's put it this way. Is that given the fact that we produced Martin King and then the president, I didn't have any idea that we would ever have Trump anywhere in the United States, right? And because he is working together with other people that we hardly knew and had forgotten to who is now trying to bring back the racism of yesterday. And when you think about somebody even thinking about bringing it back. Well, not thinking about it,

but trying hard to do it and working through a president, even after we had a president, right? Didn't expect any of that. And now we've got the battle of struggling to make certain that he does not have an effect. But what I often tell people, though, if you look at the history of America, black success has always been followed by white backlash. Oh, yeah. White backlash,

but not this effective. See, this is what they've been at. I mean, and I knew that no matter what you do, they weren't even trying to bring back the Klan-type stuff because they thought they had lost the battle, right? And we thought they had lost the battle, right? And we thought they had lost the battle. But they, then what we know was we got a person in the White House, and we have to put up with that and go back to doing it again. We hope things will follow our direction. But do you believe that this moment, though, is a wake-up call for what I call the post-civil rights movement generation,

those born 68 and beyond, for them to understand that parents may have wanted to keep a lot of this stuff away, but they've got to put some skin in this game as well. Yeah. In fact, the struggle is never won, completely won. And we rested too long to expect it to have not to happen. All right. not to happen, all right? And I say that for many of our older persons as well as our younger ones, right,

is that you never have to stop fighting the struggle. In fact, until you're completely in charge, you're not in charge at all. And we have to know that and see that and make each other aware of it, even when it seems like that we have won all the battles, right? We still have to make our people and our young people even quite aware that the struggle is never over. That's one thing I like about Jews.

Jews never think the struggle is over. When did you know that you were going to be committing your life to black liberation, black freedom, that struggle. Was there a moment where you knew exactly? No, there wasn't a moment. But there was the reality of it came from my grandmother. All right? And then when I saw it happening and going to a white school in the north,

I realized that, oh, they loved me, but they didn't love black folk. They got a street named after me, but to accept black people totally as a truly full human being. It's another thing. How old were you? About sixth grade. I mean, from that point on, did you begin to see how America viewed African-Americans?

Well, I already knew that. See, my grandmother had a library. And that is what I read all the time, right? And she was always concerned about who we are and what we must do. And as a result of that, I thought that once I thought that once we had a president we wouldn't have to worry. In fact, I was surprised that we had got a president as soon as we did. I did not think we would get it at all really, but I knew that if we did that would be, that would be that they were really completely accepting and

and that they wouldn't see us as worthy of being in charge of any and everything but they still didn't yeah well that's what I mean even though Obama becomes president you still had the folks who question black intellect, who question everything. And they're now in power. They started fighting back and allowing those that had thought that they had completely lost, they nevertheless started back. See, we have to understand that if Jews have to worry about it for a couple thousand years to right now, is that we just have to consider that it will take us longer than we thought.

Reverend Jim Lawson said that, he said, look, if you had nearly 400 years of an oppressive system, it might take that long to end that system. Well, it may even take longer than that. Jim's idea is right. However, time's a funny thing. Do you think it's because, as I often make the case,

that race is so deeply embedded in the DNA of America that it's fool's folly to think you passed, if you lost, okay, fine, you can live here here you can eat here then we all good i mean it is it is and i often say that there are a lot of whites it is so deeply embedded they don't even realize even their own views aren't because it is so ingrained in the DNA of America. Very true. That's what I mean, is that we never can not see it

and never take it for granted that you are free. You always struggle for your real total freedom, right? In a country that's had, within any country that's had slavery, and you are the slave. When you reflect back to being out there fighting, have you ever thought about where your fearlessness came from? Yeah. from. Yeah, in fact, actually, first grade was a very, very important day for me. It was a, it was truly, it was a great experience. Now, it takes me all day to say this, so I'm going to cut it down.

But my grandmother, my mother, just always made me, prettied me up. She loved that because we were going to this white school, and so we got to look good and all that stuff right first grade and so I was going out the back door of the school and a little gang had gotten together, run by a little black boy who was dumb as they come. And so the point is that I would run out the back door while they were going out the front door, right? And the railroad track was back there somewhere, and I would take the railroad track to where I could hit the concrete and go on home because I was only two blocks from school. And so, and I'd beat him. Well,

I had to stay after school for a couple minutes for something. And I went back in and ran back to the sand pile at the back and looked both directions and they rose up around me. And Theodore Derrick was the boy's name. I remember all the names. And this is first grade And I'm 93. But I remember all of them because it was a very, very important experience. And so he sent somebody in to fight me. I beat that boy. And I'm not supposed to be able to fight me. I beat that boy. And I'm not supposed to be able to fight at all because my grandmother had taught me Christianity.

And so they sent another boy in for me. And I beat him. I mean, I beat him uh i mean i beat him badly and and the uh so uh uh uh and i i remember clearly i looked down at him in the knew that I couldn't lick them all. So I looked at Theodore Dirk and said, come on in. Come on in the circle. And he decided not to. And he went home, right, with all his little gang. So the bully was afraid to fight you. That's exactly right.

And this is first grade, all right? This is first grade. But they were always trying to defeat somebody because of their own personal ignorance, really. So for you staring them down. Yeah. So when you stared down Jim Clark and Bull Connor, You were just thinking back to the first grade. Well, I wasn't thinking back to it, but I like the idea. You said, I dealt with the bully then, I dealt with the bully now. In fact, because I kept doing that all the way through school until when I was in fourth grade, I was in charge of the school.

All right? But I didn't hurt anybody. I made certain that nobody fought kids who were weaker or less able than they were, right? And in fact, they had to fight me if they fought anybody that was smaller or in a grade under them, right? So by the time we were in sixth grade which was that school was going to be out right that the sixth grade would make it over by that time i made clear that ever to everybody except two kids. I know them too, right? The idea is that if they jumped on anybody,

I would jump on them, right? And the other kid that was capable at the fourth grade level was a white boy named, what's his name? I can see him now. He had white hair. And he was dumb as the dark, right? In fact, in the third

grade, the teacher made me teach them. They still pay no attention. That's it. They tried. If you don't have it, you don't have it, right? And so given that, is that in sixth grade, though, right, is that I made certain that they would make a promise that we would, our school was the fighting school, right?

That we would not fight anymore, period. And it worked. So you go from a school where you're not fighting to you having to fight for basic freedom. Precisely. And happened to be ready for it. Won it, right? But I didn't want to be it, right? In fact, I'm wasting your time, but let me give it to you, is that I thought about it and decided that when I fought,

when I won that second battle, I made friends with the guy that, Frank. Frank, I'd hit him and he'd hit me. We would go down and back and forth. And so when we finished it, we decided that we didn't need to fight each other. So he joined me. And we wouldn't allow anybody to beat up on anybody else. That was... And I'll give you another piece of it, the war was over, not only for the little boys fighting,

but it was over. The war itself that was going on started. It sounds strange, but it started, there was a job. Never forgot that. And life changed for everybody. So as you explain that story, in the fight for black freedom, does America replace those schoolyard bullies? That is, America was the country picking on the little people. Precisely.

Establishing their dominance over them. Precisely. And when I got to junior high, and those kids, the dumber ones, and I shouldn't call them, but I got to, is that they had jobs now. All right? Their parents had jobs now. It made the difference. So they could keep this promise that they made to me. That they could keep it because they weren't even going to school. They had money, they had a job. And this is just sixth grade.

But I never had a fight or sense then. We ended up in junior high with a system that you went to first grade. They put you in a grade right by ability so uh all of us that uh had ability uh uh uh who were in that in that in that uh in that class, right? But I had friends all down the school, right? And so I thought I would just try to not make the grade one time, right? And I tried not to make it, and I didn't make it. But man, when I got down, I dropped down the grade, is that it was so bad

because the kids just didn't have it. Kids that were my friends, right, wanted to be nice and good and acceptable, but they couldn't. And I felt badly. So at the end of the six weeks, I went back upstairs, and I've been back upstairs since. The thing that is interesting to me is when we look at some of these old newsreels,

and there's the famous one where the sheriff is on the steps and you're trying to go in register to vote and takes a punch at you, knocks you back and you don't stop talking, you don't stop yelling you didn't flinch, it was as if you can keep hitting me but I'm not backing up

that's precisely right and don't intend to yet. All right. Uh, there is, uh, there is no reason at 90, if I, if I, if I held my ground this long that I don't keep it until I die. Right. And, and, uh, uh, that's most important, uh important to me is how do we reach the freedom mark? Not how do we get rid of something. How do we gain more and more, right? Every time I see somebody black get a job, I'm happy. Every time I see any kid make it who couldn't make it before, my happiness. That kind of experience makes me thankful and I want to see more of it instead When we think back to just the daily indignities, just the daily treatment, I don't think anybody who didn't endure it really, really understands what that was like precisely you can read a movie you can watch

a movie you can read a book but but just just every single day jim crow envelops your entire life and you know that it's going to see See, that's what makes it difficult. Wake up, go to bed. That's it. And what, this is, see, I always knew white schools, right? When I found out about black schools at the college level. That's what I really wanted, right? But the University of Chicago was a better shot for me. And so, because I knew what was going on there because I'd been north all the time, right? And so I forgot the idea. I was just going to, I forgot the fact that I wanted to make certain

that I stayed at that level again. You see what I mean? It's to give it, as you were talking about it, right? And so I tried to maintain it at another level. If I had been south, I would have been at Morehouse. All right? That would have been it. And my children, and the worst thing that ever happened to my oldest son was the fact that he didn't go to Morehouse. My oldest, my youngest son did go, and it was the best experience of his life. All right? And it's...

I just wished it could have happened for everyone. The fight for freedom. Yeah. I often say the reason why I think it was so amazing because you really just had ordinary people who had extraordinary faith, extraordinary courage to say enough. Yeah.

But see, what happened when that's enough, right not bend at all, right? And whatever the cost, let's pay it, but let's not bend before it, right? And and read Langston Hughes. But leave that out. I was going to take you somewhere else. The, when I think about those ordinary people, those extraordinary things, so I'm reading this book,

and remember we talked previously about this, so y'all are in St. Augustine, and you're trying to desegregate the beaches, and all this sort of thing is happening, and y'all are under these fierce attacks. And y'all are on the beach, you can't swim that's right and this person is trying to drown you yeah and you tell me here you are with your head underwater yeah and you start laughing that's right right. And I say, this is it.

Because I thought at that point, this guy had me underwater. They swim every day. And I said, this is it. And I laughed, right? Right. Because I knew that that was it, that I was going to lose this one. But so if you if you lose it, you lose it. If you win it, you win it. Right. And I have every intention of winning them all. And there's someone jumped on his back and you realize that it was a cop that was on your back. So here you are, a cop was trying to drown you.

Well, no, he wasn't trying to drown me. He was really trying to pull the other guy off of me. Because everybody was trying to kill all y'all in Florida but they were on my back but this policeman really tried to get rid of the white guy on my back he really did

so you're standing there I'm not standing there I'm stretched out underwater. So then the cop, so he pulls the guy off of you. Yeah. And then you come out of the water. And so now it's you, drenched, white guy, and the cop. And then you're trying to figure out who's going to jail.

Yeah. And then you're trying to figure out who's going to jail. Well, see, the point being is that you didn't have time to think about it. You just did it, right? And when the policeman grabbed me, I said, I didn't, you know, whatever I said. The point is, I definitely let him know that I had no business being the one that's going to jail. Right. And that this guy was right. And and this guy was looking at this policeman, too. The guy that was on my back was looking at policemen, too. We both were looking at the policeman. And the policeman, and when I told him,

the policeman, you know, you had no business, et cetera, et cetera. He blinked, and I can see him blinking now and he looked back because he had never arrested white guys before when it came to

a choice between a black and a white fellow. Did y'all often those, the folks fighting, after it happened. Did y'all often, those, the folks fighting, after it happened, did y'all often go back to the hotel room or

you're in the car and literally share these wild stories? Essentially, how close all of y'all came to death? Not really. It's that we just know that we were. And there was occasion, there were occasions where that you didn't know,

you didn't know whether you were going to. It's just like with the policeman. Guy wanted to shoot me, really, right? But I was repping his face, right? Because as soon as you give way, you can forget. And not only that, I was

too angry to give way. I mean, you know, who do you think you are, right? Kind of thing, right? It wasn't going to be. That's right. And if you'd known my mother, if you'd known my grandmother, all right,

you would understand exactly what I mean. Well, there are moments where you say, you know what? I'm tired. I just want to go back up north and just get me a nice job. Y'all can have this. No, just that simple. No, I've always been happy when I'm in the position that can bring a victory. Because any victory for some of us is a victory for all of us. You can feel my feelings. Because that's it. Nobody has a right to mess over somebody else.

That gets us back to something I left out. But I left it out on purpose because it was taking up time. But I went back to school that second day. And in first grade, first school that second day, and this kid looked at me as though, oh, I'm afraid of you. And I said, who are you looking at? And boy, he shook. And

I realized how wrong I was. You don't scare people. You don't mess over people at all, right? Regardless of situation, right? You may get them off your back, but you don't mess with them.

They're just as human as you are. Who was your closest friend in the movement as y'all are traveling around the country, as you are going through all these other towns, as you are away from home?

Who were you closest to? It was different in different times. I'm sorry. It was different according to the situation. But the character of things didn't change. How would you describe being a part of SCLC when King is kicked out of the National Baptist Convention USA they start the Progressive Baptist Convention. You have this ministerial organization

that moral leadership is the basis of not NAACP and civil rights, not National Urban League and economics, but a moral basis. I see them both as moral basis. You see is that one happens to be legal. The other one happens to be a spiritual base, but they're both spiritual. See, that's the way I really see it, is that they're both spiritual, that nobody's got any right to mess over anybody else regardless of their denomination or that kind of thing. When you reflect on those days, when you think about just the slow, just day after day after day after day?

Did you also gain courage by seeing people who had nothing, who had no education, who were saying, I'm sitting by your side? Not really. It's that they were always there. I mean, we were all there. All right?

It's that as long as you're in a struggle for freedom and justice and decency, there will always be some people with you. And I believe, and it doesn't make any difference if I'm going to go to jail for it, then I'm going to jail for it. But I know I'm right and they know I'm going to go to jail for it, then I'm going to jail for it. But I know I'm right, and they know I'm right. And they can mess over me because they've got the position to do it.

But somehow or other, it just works this way, Doc. I don't, you know, I didn't learn it, I didn't say, you know, well, no, this is what I must do. When did you first cross paths with Dr. King? Oh, that's an interesting question. I was writing an article on him. I was a journalist. Right. I was writing an article on him. And he came to Fisk to get a medal. So you were working in Nashville?

Yeah. Where were you working? Yeah, in Nashville. A black newspaper? Where were you working? Oh, no. I was at the Sunday School Publishing Board of the National Baptist Convention. Okay. And we were the largest

thing out there. So he was coming to Nashville getting an award and you were assigned to do a story on him? Yeah. Well, yeah. But the point is that why I went through that twice is because

they did not, my people at the publishing house, they were afraid, and their fear was so great that I had to always watch it. But nevertheless, I made it all work. So when did you decide to leave your role as a journalist working for the board there to commit yourself full-time to civil rights? Well, it was the chance to do it. The point is we did it because we could if the point is you were only the only reason you were

a journalist right is because that was the closest thing to uh uh struggling and fighting back and and changing the uh the atmosphere right uh that was the only way we, that I could do it. Everybody did that. Every teacher did that, right? But different results. But we could struggle. That's what you do. And so you know what I'm talking about, right? And that's exactly what a journalist was about. If you were black journalist, how did you make, create freedom? When you're sitting in these meetings, this is the thing that I believe is the most underappreciated part of the Civil Rights Movement. The strategy. The vision.

So many people, you talk to folks and they react to the speeches. They react to the marches. They react to the speeches, they react to the marches, they react to the public demonstrations. What has always fascinated me, all the behind the scenes things, the mediations, the fights and the battles and should we go here, should we go here. And so as somebody who was a part of that, who was sitting in those rooms, describe what that was like

to experience that. Well, the point being is that you knew why you were there. You knew, I mean, maybe I've got your attempt to reach me. Maybe I didn't get it. Do you give me a point? But the movement drove itself. See what you didn't spend all that time trying to find out where should we go now, what should we do, right? You knew it. So what you're saying is things were moving and progressing that fast.

That's exactly right. Coming out of Montgomery bus boycott, 381 days, and all of a sudden it's just one after another. Then, of course, forced to the North Carolina A&T and then lunch counter. Then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing that it was just it was this constant state of motion. Yeah. Now, because you had several groups. See, the, and it was, it was, but it was, once the movement started, it was going. Nothing could stop it because we had no fear. See, you were going, you were going to meet it regardless of what it was, right? I stayed in jail one time for a week when nobody else was in jail.

I mean, the point is that, why? Because I was hoping that we'd get something done that we didn't think about. All right. But it didn't happen that way. But we all, in fact, it ended with, not ended, but we all had little groups. Jose had a group. I had a group. Jesse ended up with a group. But Jesse wasn't.

I brought Jesse in the movement, all right, because he thought he was going to play football and then didn't. But he was good at a course that he was in, and his teachers thought he was real good. And Samson, all right? Samson knew Jesse. Al Samson. Yeah, Al Samson.

And so... Al Roman, Al Samson. Yeah, uh-huh, and he knew me. So he said to me, he says that Jesse has a teacher that is good. I didn't know who Jesse was. He has a teacher that thinks he's good and gives him good grades in organizing. And so, so, you know. And he says we need to get him in the movement, right? And so I went over to their apartment at the University of Chicago. I went over to their apartment. And Jesse was understandable. He wanted to be a part of something, right?

And so he came in. But his wife, on the other hand, was just going to float with him, right? But my wife met her, and they became friends. So that paved the way. That made it a lot easier. Yeah, that made it a lot easier all the way around.

And she was more fun because she almost would run over a car and strut in the same way you take it out, but the point being is that they became good friends and they were always, always together, right? But they were just, that was in Chicago. But anyway, that's just side stuff. When you, we read these stories. We read these stories about the depression

that the king would be under. The heavy pressure, the burden, especially as we go beyond 65 and then 66 and 67. I was 65.

And so how did y'all deal with just all of that? What was your release valve? Was it music? Was it music? Was it laughter? Was it just a camaraderie? Because you're under this constant state. It's kind of who it was. Martin was an intellectual.

I mean, and that's how he handled things, right? Even though Ambassador Young said he had a wicked sense of humor. Huh? Oh, a wicked sense of humor. Well, he had a sense of humor. And he had more than that. See, the point being is because he was such an intellectual is that nothing really got me this way.

Right? He knew what he wanted to do and already figured it out. Been at the universities and figured it all out. He knew what he had to do, right? And so that he really, he just, he had a hard time dealing without bringing it up, had a hard time dealing with some of the guys that Jose had brought up, for instance, right?

They were just, they were not necessarily your choice. Not necessarily your choice. Not necessarily intellectual types. When he gave the speech at Riverside Church, James Bevel, Diane Nash were pushing him to take a much harder stance against the Vietnam War. Where were you on that?

I'm always against war. But is that the moment that you do that, right? Is what else is there that you have to do? So when he made that decision, were you one of the voices that said, Doc, what are you doing? No, no, I never said no. It's that a movement to me

is so much a part of the essence of a group that you don't have to tell a story. Hosea was a problem. Just not...

Because Hosea would go to what's Martin's, what's his name, who was second man in charge. Aberdathy. Aberdathy. Aberdathy. And he couldn't have his way in the group. He would try to run to Hosea.

But we knew when to cut him off and when not to, right? Because Ab knew when to cut him off and so did Martin. And so there was a different time sometimes. But they always, he had a hard time getting his way by that way. King goes to Memphis. Yeah. King goes to Memphis. Where are you? Are you there with him?

Or are you somewhere else? No, I was in Chicago. When he went to Memphis, I was in Chicago. And he often still communicated via phone with all of his different lieutenants in different places. Well, yes and no.

I mean, we did, but not necessarily in all working on the same thing. Right, right, right. Yeah. Right, because at this point, he had different folks who were doing different things in different parts of the country. Right. So it's 6.01 p.m. on April 4th. Where are you? I don't know.

It's 6.01... p.m. on April 4th, 1968. Oh, you mean when Martin was shot? Were you in Chicago? No. Yeah, I was. When he was shot. Were you in Chicago? No. Yeah, I was. When he was shot? Yeah.

Yeah, I was. And I was, when I was coming back to our apartment, and they kept saying on the radio, Martin King is shot. And then finally they said, he is dead, right?

And I knew right off the bat that he was dead, right? And before they even said it, because they wanted the public to, you know, a little at a time. And I was on the other side of the city, and that's a long ways. And by the time I got to the house, they had announced. And so I remember that mid-level you had, what did they call it, some sort of level house that had two sets of stairs. And you went up one set of stairs to the bedrooms and you went to the other set of steps for the rest of the house. And so when I came in, started up the stairs, and the wife was in the living room, so she said, are you going?

And I said, yes, and kept moving, right? And my wife knew that I was, you know, going because she asked me and I told her, what's his name? So she asked you this question. Here you have

the news of Dr. King being dead. Yeah. And your immediate reaction is we keep moving. King being dead. Yeah. And your immediate reaction is, we keep moving. That's right. Because, and do it together, because now you have something quite, you have to be together to react to this.

The Martin, you have to, it had to be. But did his death change everything? No. See, no. In fact, we kept going as much as we could, right? And we, in fact, I remember a fellow that was working with the Kennedys

and that he and I were at the office and we were going to try to raise money for the continuation of the movement, right? Which we did. But we didn't raise a lot of money. But we were still at it, right? And this was what was going to our talk to the rest of the group.

What are you going to do? Because that's it. They didn't do much of anything, really. Everybody was distraught. I and the fellow that worked with the Kennedys, we were not. So you're saying that in this aftermath, so many folks who were around him were just in this different state.

And so here you have this huge figure who's now dead and you're and it's interesting you're saying that because what Reverend Lawson told me was was the exact same thing. It was all about the work. He said he did

he said he did not really grieve until it was July or August. Yeah. In fact the point being is, I don't remember grieving at all. This was what you always expected, all right?

But you knew also that that wasn't going to end the struggle. And it's the struggle that you were concerned about. And you were the struggle that Martin was concerned about. It was... That's what it was all about, right? Is that it wasn't about, well, Martin is dead, so let's go home. And that's nonsense. That's nonsense.

Is that you would work harder because you didn't have a Martin King. He was now not only dead, but he was to also mourning. We were also mourning, as far as I was concerned, the next day when Coretta came out and the mayor got a plane for him. I was there the next morning too, right? the mayor got a plane for him. I was there the next morning too, right?

And remember, he was shot, of course. And there was this story among us that Martin, not only was Martin dead, but that the fellow that shot him was right across the way, right? And so I went over and got to the door and to see how close it was. And so I got down on my knees at the window and uh and and and so forth stuff like that because we were wanted to know as much as we could know but uh we knew that uh uh everything was going to change uh And it did. And it's just like, and what else changed

was the new movement. Right? Right now, the movement, we've got other kids, right? Black Lives Matter. That's right. Is that because they've got that, but look,

they learned something quickly that we had already known, that it was also time to die. I mean, you knew that you were, if you were going to have to die, you knew you were going to die, right? But the kids, the young guys now, the young people now, I say kids, but girls and boys, they really didn't get it. But you know who did get it? The guy that was their leader at the university, their president of the organization, and he knew something that the rest of them had no. They were not ready for a movement.

What I mean by that is for a movement, you've got to be ready to die. All right? And the point is, if you are not, is that you can be bluffed. And that's what was happening to most of the kids at the university. That's this movement, right? But the young guy, the young guy that really gave it its name, right? He had done, he was going to starve himself, right?

What he had learned was that if you're not ready to die, you can't have a movement. I've been with those kids since in Florida once in another situation.

But they weren't ready to go all the way for a movement, right? But the young guy that was head of it, he understood. 20, 30, 40 years from now, it's gonna be a kid, elementary school, junior high school, high school, doesn't matter. They're gonna be looking at some films, a DVD, a document, looking at some photos.

They're going to be reading something. You're all right now. Keep going. They're going to come across Reverend C.T. Vivian. They're going to see you at newsroom. They're going to see you getting punched and you coming right back. They're going to see all of that.

What do you want that student to know about you when they see that? It doesn't matter. What I want them to know is what they're going to have to do. I don't care what they're going to have to do, right? If they learn what they have to do, then that's the name of the story. And whether 10 of them do and 10 of them don't, it doesn't matter to me. They don't all have to do anything, right? Because they didn't in the first place.

Because you just don't, right? And you're not going to have everybody. It's a changed setup. You've done your struggle, really. You see what i mean and uh uh and uh you're uh and if they learn what you would like for them to learn fine but the point is you kept the struggle going as long as you could right and uh and and you hope that they learn, right? And gained the stuff it takes to really be,

see, and I don't even like saying stuff it takes. It sounds like, you know, you're, you know. I'm going to throw a few names out. This will be the last part here. Okay. Short answers, just going to throw a name out. See what Short answers. Just going to throw a name out. See what you have to say when I throw a name out. You're a good guy. First name I will bring up, Harry Belafonte.

Harry Belafonte. Harry has always been a support and a help for not only the movement, but for other things as well. And I've liked him ever since there. I know it's, and the thing is, is that, so I know he's always going to help out at any time it goes. And he was a real support service to Martin. Diane Nash. Diane Nash.

Oh, Diane is always going to, Diane is the one person, the only woman we had that you really, and everybody made her their leader, right? And Diane, Diane is really something else. Ella Baker. Oh, something else. Ella Baker. Oh, Ella Baker. Ella Baker was a natural. Ella, when that car broke down and hurt her. It's not that it hurt her, but that it put her out of the real action, right?

Like she was used to, right? Ella suffered from... She was always a person that was going to speak up and always going to move forward. John Lewis. John Lewis. John, listen, is that the thing I always said is that John was— See, I remember we were in seminary together, right? And John never really seemed to be

as great as he is. But he is and was and always will be. He has the integrity. I think, actually I didn't spend much time with him, but I think of him as the smartest guy we had. that he and and and had had had the kind of stuff it takes all right and in fact I didn't even know he was around for for a while that's but but he was in Mississippi, see, and it was a while before most of us got out of the... In fact, that's something I want to say, is that we owe Alabama more than we owe anybody anything, is that those states gave us, every one of them gave us something, right? I mean, they broke ground for us, all right? And I don't think that you can

write anything about movement without every one of those states, Montgomery right on through Selma. Jesse Jackson Sr. Jesse, Jesse is, I think that Jesse, Jesse never understood nonviolence. But he never stopped fighting either. But now when you say fight, you think, oh boy, he's a fighter. No, he's not that kind of fighter. He was like a football player. But he never stopped moving forward.

And he's done a job. I was with him last month. And I was surprised. And he's, Jesse's all right. What about Jones? Clarence Jones. Clarence Jones. Clarence Jones. Who's Clarence Jones? King's attorney.

Huh? MLK's attorney. Who's attorney? Dr. King's attorney, Clarence Jones. Oh, Clarence Jones. One of his, one of his. California. Yep.

The legal guy. Yeah, now California. Yeah. But I was going to show you something that I got from him. He, where is it? I just was with him a few months ago when he was in town. And he's the legal mind. And I didn't get to spend a lot of time with him at all, really. But he's always to be highly respected and listened to early evers williams oh i never knew her until late she was head of the naacp by the time i i really knew her because the NAACP and our groups were kind of really separate, right? And as far as I was concerned, they were too legal for me.

You want a more fight? Yeah. I mean, the point being is that I want to make certain that they would never tell me that no lawyer could tell me, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do that. Oh, yes, I can. Remember C.T. Vivian?

Yeah. It's been a pleasure. I'm so glad that you're here. I don't know how we took up this much time, because I was sitting there thinking, I was sitting while I was waiting, I was sitting there thinking, well, we've got to take in this and take in this and take in that.

I don't know how we're going to get all this in. I know how to cover it all. You did, Doc. I know how to cover it all. This is why I kept saying to you, I kept smiling and looking at you and saying, yeah. And you're going to because you were asking the questions and you were asking the questions that were real. Well gone. Yeah, that's right, Doc.

I appreciate it. Thank you. This is an iHeart Podcast.