#RolandMartinUnfiltered - A Conversation with Tom Joyner & Sybil Wilkes moderated by Roland Martin | #NABJ19

Episode Date: August 13, 2019

A Conversation with Tom Joyner & Sybil Wilkes moderated by Roland Martin | #NABJ19 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. But it's all good. Glad to have you all here in my in Aventura, Miami for NABJ. I'm Roland Martin, vice president digital. This is my 30th year in NABJ. Third time on the board. I'm so glad to be here. And so this is this is a conversation here that I think you're going to enjoy. This is the final year of the Tom Jonah Morning Show. How many of you listened to or grew up listening to the Tom Jonah Morning Show? Thank you. Thank you. For the five of y'all who didn't,

what the hell is wrong with y'all? Who have y'all been listening to? And so we're going to have a great conversation. You're going gonna learn some stuff uh that you did not know we're also going to talk about uh the future of black radio as well uh and so uh to uh introduce everybody first off uh you might be sitting here going hello it's conversation with tom jordan no tom jordan and sybil wilkes and my man uh mr perry over here given paired with paired broadcasting uh Give it up.

He's the, I call him the shot caller big baller, but his daddy really is a shot caller big baller. That's correct. We also have, of course, she has been with Tom long as of anybody else on the show. Others call her sidekick. No.

She is the co-host and she is the chief dominatrix on the show who keeps everybody. She got whips and chains because she crack on everybody. Put your hands together for Sybil Wilkes. And of course, the first African-American syndicated urban radio show. Folks said this could not be done. You must be on crack. You are outside of your mind. It was initially it was difficult because when he started, he had a whole head of hair. But now he's clean shaven. But 20 plus years, 25, 25. But in radio, a lot longer than that.

I want to say put your hands together, get on your feet and welcome Tom Jones to NABJ. Y'all have a seat. Y'all gonna get a kick out of this. So when initially when they said, hey, we want to have this conversation with Tom at NABJ. And somebody called me and said, I said, oh, that's a great idea. And so then they threw out the name of other people. They like, I think we had this person moderated and this person moderated. And I said, I'm just curious. Have any of those people on the show? And they said, no, who are you thinking about? I said, the one person here who owned the show. I'm like, clearly, none of y'all are real producers.

So I had to jack them. And then, of course, being on the board, I had to go ahead and pull rank. And so I have been on the Times-Journal Morning for the last 11 years, joined in October of 2008. And so it has been an incredible journey. But we go further back than that. Yeah, go further back. But I'm just saying, but actually on the show, get the check. Yes, yes.

Yes. So you tell Kevin, the CEO, because I mentioned money, his eye lit up like, yes, there you go. And so let's get this thing started. First of all, here's what I want to know. How did y'all meet? Chicago. I was fly jocking. I was going back and forth from Dallas to Chicago every day,

doing mornings in Dallas, catching American flight that left at nine something to Chicago and doing afternoons. And Sybil was doing traffic. And for the longest, I didn't see Sybil because

I would say, let's go to the Sears Tower and Sybil Wilkes has traffic. So how long did we do it like that? For about a few months? No, we did it for the better part of a year. Yeah. And then one day I found out that she was at the Hancock,

not even at the Sears Tower. Another tall building. And that's how we met. Yeah, I was doing an overnight talk show at WGCI AM, and I had 13 listeners. It was my mom and 12 of her friends. You're from Chicago. I am from Chicago. I came home to Chicago after working in Florida

and North Carolina. And so Marv Dyson, God bless him, brought us all in one Monday morning and fired us. And I was like, okay, now I can get some sleep. And he called me four days later and said, how you doing? I said, well, considering the fact that you fired me, I'm pretty swell. And he said, well, I have an idea. And so that was the first time I ever heard somebody say, I have an idea. And that started my relationship first time I ever heard somebody say, I have an idea. And that started my relationship with Tom Joyner. And I was doing traffic with Doug Banks in the morning. I was I was I was car jockeying. I was doing traffic with Doug in the morning and Tom in the afternoon.

And sure enough, we did it for two years. Eight. No, you did that for eight years. We did the traffic and fly deck thing for two, three years. Yeah. And then he called me one day. It was, I'll tell you when it was. It was shortly, my mother died in January of 93, okay? And Tom was the first person to come to my house that day. And a few weeks later, he called and said, how you doing?

And I said, I'm okay. And he said, well, I've got an idea. And he told me about this opportunity for syndication and would I be interested. And at that point, I had a boyfriend, but that was it as far as any connections in Chicago at that point, having lost my mother and through that year of 93, he groomed us to get ready to

move to Dallas. And we all moved to Dallas in November right after Thanksgiving. And we did a month's worth of runs and practice runs for the show. Because it had never been done

before. Ever? Ever. For Urban Radio? No. There were syndicated shows, but never. There were syndicated shows, but there were syndicated shows, but the syndicated shows like Howard Stern and what's the lady's name? Rick Dees.

No, well, Rick Dees just had a syndicated weekend show. But a full form, five-day a week, Monday through Friday syndicated show. There was, you know, Rush Limbaugh and other people. But this was different because this was done for black radio. Okay, so black radio is different from any other format. It is very personal. We may play music and do everything, but do everything that everybody else does. But what makes us different is black radio is a part of the community.

It is a part of the community it is a part of your family so we had to create a show that was syndicated yet it sounded like it was in your city syndicated but local syndicated but local because because we knew that we knew that black people were not going to accept a show that they listened to from Dallas. It'd be all right. White folks would listen to Howard Stern from New York. So we had to come up. That's why it took so long to practice and do it because we had to make it sound like

we were local but for everybody though when you when you're out here practice normally you think radio folks are all in the studio no you chose to do a show on steroids so explain to people where everybody was well and it grew even more out of the world kind of thinking because didn't you have a band somewhere I had a band in Chicago so you had a band in Chicago a live band in Chicago you and Sybil in Dallas

yeah didn't you have somebody else somewhere else it just grew it just grew Ms. Dupree was our first comedian on a weekly basis and she was in New Orleans or she was in Los Angeles at the time um and then Myra Jay she also was in Los Angeles at the time It's Your World was coming out of Los Angeles it came it came

from everywhere but we didn't let anybody know that. We never did. We never did. And we pulled it off so well that people actually thought that I was in Atlanta. And I was in Macomb, Mississippi. They were swinging by the station. Hey, it's time now. No, really. No, really. No, seriously. Seriously.

Like in Atlanta, we were in the CNN building. And the station had a window where you could see the jocks. And we kept the curtains curtains closed and people would come by knock on the window I hear from the uh uh producer and they were looking for me then then it got so it we got so good um I was in the airport and this man ran up to me he said Tom Joy Tom Joyner, man, how you doing, man? I used to hear you in Dallas all the time and I heard you in Chicago. You all right?

Because I heard you in Macomb, Mississippi. He thought you got demoted. I heard you in Macomb, Mississippi. You all right? Times are hard, huh? I said, I'm good. I'm good. Don't do a benefit for me just yet. But thanks. But yeah, that's how we had to do

it. And we pulled it off. I would say now here's traffic from... And every station if they weren't automated and even when they were automated would send liners. And Tom would customize and it would take

day after day after day in which he would do the liners. Just so it would sound local. So everything, which means timing is everything. Could nobody just get extra for 30 seconds? No.

Because that threw everything off. We were a network. We were no different than Good Morning America or CBS Morning News. We were a network. So we had to hit our breaks at the same time because we're a network of 100

or some odd stations. And just like local TV, then Good Morning America or the Today Show comes out of New York, but it's all these stations around the country. And here's weather in your neighborhood. And they have to hit those bars. Right. You know.

Ken, I want to bring you in here because as a station owner, to Tom's point, it was all about a local morning show. I did Morning Drive at a morning show, WVON, before I joined the Tom Jones Morning Show. And WVON, The Voice of the Negro, it's about local. It's about local, local, local, touching, feeling. Black folks want to drop food off by the station. And then you put them on the air, thanks to bringing some chicken at 7 o'clock in the morning. All that stuff. So how was it for you on the station ownership side to hit his idea in Black Radio? Y'all want us to give up my most important slot to a syndicated show that's not here? Right.

First of all, I want to say congratulations to you, Mr. Joyner, to Sybil for your career. And I know this is not the end. It's just a new beginning to the next stage. So thank you from an ownership perspective. Thank you for what you did. Roland, to your question, we have a family business audience and we're based out of Oklahoma City. And for what Mr. Joyner did in our company, we own radio stations throughout the nation. And we have Mr. Tom Joyner and his morning show, Sybil, at one time at five different markets, four now. And what he did, he made it local. But what he has not said when it was a brand new show that he was rolling out, that was the first time that I could say that it was actual money put behind a show to make it sound equal to anything else that was out there

and so when you put that type of investment in it and you have the talent you get the time during the morning show the local driven was phenomenal for us now remember this i'm in oklahoma city he i'm glad he didn't say call us mississippi when he was talking about how bad mississippi was and we're not atlanta georgia but in ok Oklahoma City, to have a talent like these two individuals in the initiatives that he drove made our stations even more relevant. So from a local perspective, people turned on the radio every day to hear what Tom Joyner had to say about what was dealing with us in this room nationwide because it affected us locally as well. That's one thing that he was masterful of, of dealing with issues that affected us even locally. Well, that's because the black community, the black community, even though we, you know,

we stretch from coast to coast, it's really very small, very small when you're broadcasting to the black community because all of our needs are you know education finance uh health all of those all of those things makes us a very small community when you're broadcasting and we had to we had to come up with a show that did more than just play some music and and tell you what time it was we had to come up with a show that did more than just play some music and tell you what time it was. We had to come up with a show that did everything that black radio has always done, and that's get involved and super serve our African American community.

Which is how you actually first got on the radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mentor, John H. Johnson, taught me that. But no, no, no. My mentor, John H. Johnson taught me that. But no, no, no. When the white man said stop, stop. Activism is how you became a DJ. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I was protesting. I was protesting. I'm from Tuskegee, small town. Any Tuskegee folks in the room? Any Alabama folks in the room?

Okay, gotcha. So this is in the 60s. Montgomery bus boycott was going on. And if you notice any of the footage of all of the protests you saw you saw young people our parents couldn't couldn't afford to take the risk of losing their job with with white people so so every Saturday every Saturday we were out there protesting something, voter registration, school desegregation, lunch counters, you know, Confederate soldiers. You know, we were doing that every Saturday. So I'd like to tell you that I was woke and I was out there protesting like everybody else because

you were down for the call down for the call and the truth is the truth I was a fat kid and they served good food at protest so you were hungry oh my god the sandwiches were so good. They give you a whole half a chicken. You like for protesting? For protesting. Whoa! So every Saturday we're out there protesting something. And eating.

And eating. Sign in one hand. Sandwich in the other. And so this particular Saturday we were protesting the fact that our one radio station in this practically all black town did not play any Aretha, no Temptations, no Wilson Pickett, none of that. And the radio station was housed in a Ford dealership. The owner of the radio station also owned this Ford dealership. So we out there, we want a reefer. We want Wilson Pickett.

And an owner came out there and he said, look, I see y'all out here every Saturday protesting something. I'm trying to sell some cars. I could give a damn about this radio station. I tell you what, I'll give y'all a show where you can play

all the Aretha and the temps that you want. Who wants to do it? Or was it an hour on Saturday? It was a daytime station, so it started at 2 o'clock and whatever time the sun went down.

And so I put the sign down, but I held on to the sandwich and I put my hand up and I said, I'll do it. And that's how my career started.

And you how? I was... I went to school early. You were in college. I was in college. I was. You were in college. I was in college. I was like a junior in college. I was like 19. You're like, I'll do it.

I'll do it. And I've been in radio ever since. I've never done anything else but radio. What's up, boy? Thank you. So, well, Kevin Anton talked about the activism piece and when you think about this show all the years, folks talk about, oh sure, this entertainer and that entertainer, but the reality is, as I've traveled around the country, when people talk about, when people, I mean

everywhere, like, hell, I was in the airport. I flew to Atlanta last night for an event. I came back, do an airport, like, yo, man, what time, what are you going to do? I was like, he's going to run a foundation. He's not going to, I'm just checking. But what people talk about, not entertainment interviews. They talk about the initiatives, the campaigns that were launched. Taking those campaigns to the air and spreading them throughout the nation. And I dare say throughout the world because we were on Armed

Forces Radio as well. And a number of those. Which is different because a lot of people would have been scared to take stances on issues. Look, we're trying to get dropped, mess with our money. Exactly. Exactly right, Rolandan. And it was, there were some times where it was a little uneasy, but Tom was always, and he talks about his mentor, but he was always and has always been

about doing right by black folks. I don't care what they're doing, and he will tell them when they're wrong, but as far as these issues. But I still support them. Yeah. You can be but as far as but I still support them yeah yeah you're wrong you're gonna be wrong and black but I'm gonna still support you I don't have a choice my website is called black america web but but these issues whether it is voter registration whether it was telling the folks at compu serve um whether it was telling the folks at CompuServe, whether it was you name it. We had so many air initiatives that just took place and took off, even when it was down to keeping living single on the air.

You know, it was things like that that were so important to to people and didn't realize that we could do something about it. You know, we could do it locally. We did all the protesting and things, but this took it to a whole nother have a national platform. Exactly. It's a hundred plus cities. And so when somebody says,

yeah, y'all ain't really major. OK, listen, tomorrow morning and hits and then when the phone calls show up. Yes. And folks, you know, mailing in and mailing in their receipts or people lined up to register to vote and coming in the middle of the night to be a part of a sky show where we were really just trying to do voter registration. But Tom had that infotainment aspect of it.

We were informing as well as entertaining. Tom, the CompuServe thing was a little different. Yeah. It just sort of happened. And then y'all were like, what the hell just happened? Explain for the folks who are unfamiliar. Okay. There's one major rule of radio or media. You don't go after advertising. You don't go after advertising you don't do that you don't bite the hand that feeds you that's the money that's the money you don't talk about advertisers they do something wrong or tragic like like what happened at Walmart you take the spots off the air immediately. You do not ever talk about advertisers. Well, I don't know if you

remember some, an organization called CompUSA. Remember them? Okay, CompUSA, they out of business now. But anyway, someone leaked an email that said they didn't want to advertise to black people. Whoa, that ain't right. So we went to CompUSA and said, you know, you don't black people buy in your stores. And in fact, I can prove it. And so I went on the air and I said, CompUSA said that they didn't want to advertise to black people.

So my boss said, hey. Ick, snay, on the omk. I said, no, no, no. You're not getting any money from these people anyway. So I'm calling them out. And I got a no-cut contract I so I'm in the driver's seat I'm driving so I said okay

people CompUSA doesn't want to advertise to black people and I went to CompUSA and I told them black people buy their products do me a favor and send in your receipts to black people. And I went to CompUSA and I told them black people buy their products. Do me a favor and send in your receipts. So boxes of receipts were delivered to CompUSA and the rest is history. Oh, it got real, it got, it got real sticky though. Yeah. real sticky though. Tavis and I talked about them real, real, real, real

bad and so it came down from the headquarters of, we were owned by ABC then and ABC said, don't say anything else about CompUSA, okay? I said, well, too late. I said,

just stop it. When you go on the air in the morning, don't say anything. So I went on the air. And I said, boom, boom, boom. Is this mic on? Boom, boom, boom. Is this mic on? And we were victorious. Comp USA advertised and other people came on board and started

advertising because at that time there were a lot of people like Comp USA that refused to advertise to black people. Absolutely. And still is. In fact, Kevin, that was the famous cat cat's memo that was the next one we went after and when that cat folks who don't know if you Google it at cat's memo uh a non-urban dictate yep and what folks don't understand is that we we you talk to all of our advertising would come through cats. All of it. All of it.

And so we went after cats. Oh, ABC got so upset. You can't go after cats. Don't say nothing. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Is this mic on? Boom, boom, boom, boom. Is this mic on?

And yeah, it was sticky. It was tricky at one time. Kevin, the reason that is significant because if folks who don't realize black magazines ebony black enterprise essence uh you had major car companies um uh luxury car companies would not advertise in black magazines even though black folks bought yeah every day then you had so many other companies folks know uh gucci and prada all the issues that they've had yeah uh and you can go down the line and you've had companies making millions of black folks but they're not wanting to reinvest for black folks as a station owner

uh beyond the syndicated show you're impacted by that because you're not able to grow your company to increase your revenues to buy more stations and so it impacts the growth of your business when you don't have as dr king said in the april 3rd speech uh at mason temple reciprocity absolutely no i the no urban dictates you all you all may i look amongst you all and walk through the halls and all this hope and faith and high energy and smiles and the world the all this hope and faith and high energy and smiles and the world the future's in front of you and you and you thank you and you and and and take advantage of that you one thing that I've learned real quickly with Roland saying when we

bought a radio station we turn on a hip-hop station we turn on Tom Joyner Urban AC and everybody hears their favorite song and and black folks will walk up to me or my friends and say boy I know you're making a bunch of money I said that's why you think I'm making a bunch of money because you're playing the hottest songs everybody's listening to you so everybody's gonna advertise but then when mr. Joyner turned around and his show came out start talking about no urban dictates when my favorite coffee place was on there talking about don't advertise to black folks because they don't buy our coffee there is a underbelly as an underline of folks saying that our dollar is not worth

spending advertising to get so when he came out with his show exposing all of that that helped us out because the conversation was being able to be had because without revenue we cannot exist but the conversation was being had and other companies were hearing is there oh said, oh, hell no. They're not going to call us out next. So I need y'all to pay some money. We're going to buy some advertisement. And here is the backside of that.

They got a return on their investment. Yeah. They didn't. It wasn't money to get them quiet. They actually got a return on their dollar. No, go right here. Go right here. Tom, you were able to show,

I forgot which car company, I talk about your car on the show, this is an increase in your sales. So you had data. Yeah. One cruise, we sold like 700 cars. 700 cars. And Ford said, we'll see y'all

next year. Well, let me give props for props to do. I didn't just come up with that. I may have done that and it hadn't been done on radio before, but you know who taught me that? Who? John H. Johnson.

John H. Johnson. We had a TV show for a minute and did you know that Kentucky Fried Chicken did not advertise in Ebony Jet or any other black media? Hell, what do they think? And all the chicken that black folks eat. So Mr. Johnson said, well, let's go see them. If you ever met him, you know I'm dead on. So we went to Louisville and we walked up to their headquarters and it looked like the home and gone with the wind.

So we walk up in there and Mr. Johnson said, I want to speak to the colonel. Yeah, he actually said that. If not the colonel, the man on top. And he said, my name is Johnny Johnson. I'm rich. And I eat chicken.

And I'm not here for me, but I'm here for black people that came over on a boat as a slave. I mean, he took them back. By the time we walked out of there, they were feeling so guilty that we had Kentucky Fried Chicken. And that was like unbelievable. That's like 30, 40 years ago. They were not advertised to black people until Johnny Johnson walked up in there. I'm rich and I eat chicken. back in his magazine so when he walked in simple he had he had a behind them and so for the morning show same thing if you didn't have folks listening and ratings were hot so when you walked in you said look here I don't know many people remember but back in the day when there was Ebony magazine there was always a survey in the back do you rent or own did you go to college or not right how much money do you make and he was the

first the first that came up with data about the black person the black consumer. The black consumer. He was a marketing, he was a marketing genius. And he went to all these different, all these different brands that black folks love. And he told them, he said, black folks love your product and black folks have money to buy. And here's the, here's the data. And he said, he said, when black people love you, we wrap our arms around you through generations and to death. Like, I don't know how many, I'm going to, I remember Colgate. Everybody had a Colgate toothpaste. We when we when we when black people

say they buy your product we love your product. Whether it's the best product on the market or the most expensive or the cheapest. When we say that's what we buy,

there's nothing like that brand loyalty. But when you piss us off, right, here we go. There's a flip side to that. That's right. To this day, if I drive by a Texaco,

I pause because of the racism. That was at least by a Texaco. Wow, yeah. I paused because of the racism. That was at least 18, 20 years ago. So to this day, I'm like, nah. Let me go to Exxon. So what I'm saying, for black people,

when you do something to black people, we, that's what I tell people all the time, especially black celebrity folks who are in our profession, I tell them Did notice fit y'all go try to try to appease as many white folks as you want You could try to cross over but do not piss off black people and you damn show don't know black women That's right. So some of y'all be asking me out, but what my guys did well, why you always with One of my guys my show said why ask my

see you always all them old black women and you will walk over take a picture i said let me tell you something old black women watch they make their kids watch they make their grandkids watch i'ma lock up the old black women market tell me about janet jackson oh so so Janet Jackson when she was on the cruise um Janet Jackson's mama watched me every day on tv1 at four o'clock in the morning in LA Lowell Henry who was a long time it was a close Jackson Jackson's friendship he's close to Miss Jackson he would call me he said roll me and Miss Jackson Miss Catherine we watch you he would text me boy say, roll me in, Miss Jackson, Miss Catherine. We watch you. He would text me. Boy, she just said this. We'd be talking to television.

And it's 4 o'clock in the morning in L.A. Now, we were on at 9 o'clock. It was 6 o'clock in the morning. They were cold. He said, every day. And there were so many other stories like that. And so the thing about that is, again, is understanding. And I want to speak to this, and I can all three of you.

Why we have to, Tyler Perry spoke here last year. well, I want to speak to this and I can all three of you why we have to what Tyler Perry spoke here last year because I want him to speak to this, why we have to respect the black consumer and have love for our people in order to also get it back. Yeah, I think that and as Tom learned at the feet of Mr. John H. Johnson, those of us on the show have learned from Tom, especially about understanding the demographics of our show. Women between the ages of 25, well, at the time it was 25 and 54. Now it's considerably older. But it is having the respect and understanding, and I think Tom also understood that not only from Mr. Johnson but in his own household and understanding that the women the people in his

house made the decisions they were making those buying decisions the purchase decisions as well as you know what you put on your back and what you put in your mouth from his mother and his aunt and those of us that also grew up in understanding the power of these single black women that were listening to us and understanding how important they were to the running of our show sorry mr audio man i get a little excited about this sometimes but not only in terms of uh the programming of our show but that actually the features of the show we have one of the first uh single mom features with myra j uh and that was a real important part because you're reaching out to these people and that also engendered a lot of advertising, I dare say, in terms of who was going to be advertising with us, as well as how we were going to get people to take in a lot of these advertisers that hadn't done business with black companies before.

But Tom, that your black audience wants to be touched. They want to. I use the example for me. I can't go to a church. I know you can't talk about this subject. That's a running joke on the show, y'all. I won't go to a church if I can't shake the preacher's hand. You can't do that, preach, and then go in your bat cave. No, black folks also, they want you to touch them. Radio is like that. Radio is a, radio, I have a congregation. Radio is like that. Radio is a... I have a congregation.

Yes, you do. I do. Now he's Bishop Tom Joyner. Bishop Elder Deacon. And black radio has to touch and hug. Well, how do you do that when you're in Dallas and you're in a

hundred and some odd markets and everybody wants to be touched and hugged? We came up with the Sky Show and we did the Sky Shows. We did that for four or five years. I don't know how many we did a year, maybe maybe 50, 60 of them in in large, large arenas, large venues. And we would literally touch, hug and touch and hit it with the boat

and entertain. And and we and we and we and we coined the phrase we trademarked the phrase party with a purpose. And it started out, we trademarked the phrase, party with a purpose. And it started out, the purpose was to register people to vote and to put emphasis on candidates in each market. And so every year, I would do maybe 50, 60 markets. And in those 50 or 60 markets, they thought I was there anyway,

but I would do the Sky Show and I'd do some other stuff in the market. But it was all about one thing, hugging, touching, and reaching out. And I love hugs. Kevin, how do you tell your radio folks who are local don't just sit behind the mic and don't go and ignore folks and not touch them yeah that selfie matters that hug matters speaking to that brother shining his shoes matters every day you know you talk about

how do you connect or how do we connect you know when i look in the mirror i love what i see i love being who i am i love being a black man in america in this world you know and so how do how does that translate into our company everyone in our company doesn't look like everyone on this stage but they know who we're targeting and what we're embracing right so you know how our djs you have to interact with the community that you're in local and live but what's about the substance what about it matter you know going back just a little bit about what we talked about earlier about advertisers and the money talking about value i started getting advertising agencies calling me say hey do you carry the time during the morning show absolutely well here's a buy well you know what is

that contract renewed we need to renew that contract for tom jordan it built value so every day when you all are moving you all have to interact stop and be nice one thing that i have watched in these hallways you all are interacting but there's some big timers here too you know they can't speak can't smile can't look at your eye to eye guess what shame on you because this conference won't benefit you slow down what he said what roland said and get to know someone i don't i want you to speak to black love and i want i think it's hard for folks who are not celebrities or public figures to really understand black love and how just amazing it is i think about going through the atlantic first of all going through the atlanta airport

it's just black love all day all day but i was in the i was in the airport i'm waiting on the flight and the brother walks up to me and he says, thank you. He shakes my hand. And I said, appreciate it. He says, no, thank you. And walks off. But I knew exactly what he was talking about. So what's one of your member exam memorable examples of just being in the presence and in being the beneficiary of black love. There's so many. I think a lot of people still don't know what I look like and and and I'm okay with that. That's why I'm in radio. You know, For some folks, this is the first time they've seen me. But they know my voice and they know my laugh.

And so that's what when it will, you know, somebody will turn around and say, oh, my God, I know that. I know that laugh. And then, you know, they grab you up because we are talking to people every morning, the most intimate times of your day, right? They butt naked, in bed, in the shower, like it is intimate. Yes, it is. And sometimes we're the only ones with them. But it is really important, important times of their days. And now we have kids, I'm sorry, we have young adults that are telling us, you know, my mama made me listen to you going to school when I was in seventh grade. And now, you know, I'm anchoring the news here in this particular city. It's like, those are the

moments. And it's not like, you know, Danny Glover coming on and Tom and Jay and Danny Glover said, is Sybil there? And I was like, yes, Mr. Glover, as a matter of fact, I am. But, you know, it's moments where people recognize you. And when Danny Glover says to Tom, thank you, like you just heard, Roland, thank you. And not realizing that Danny Glover or Oprah is listening to you, but also those people, those women that are driving their kids to school every morning and saying, listen to what they're saying. Right. You know, and now you're going to go look up that big A word or whatever, you know,

and you can be silly and make a living like Jay Anthony Brown or all the other comedians, you know, but it's just those people that recognize and encourage their children. That's what really means the most to me. Tom, a woman hit me up, said she would she will always drop her kid off around the same time my segment was on. And they were in the car and I had not finished. A child said, go around the block the mama told me and I gave a shout out on the air and I said hey I met this mother a daughter dog was 14 I got an email thanks right you 12 wow but Tom but but again I'll speak to

risk being on the receiving end of black love that's the best yeah it's the best and I get it every day several times a day anytime I walk outside outside my house. Can I just tell this morning we were leaving the Hot 105 studio and I was getting in Tom's car and there are these two women that came up on alongside Tom. So these women, Tom said they walk that every morning, they walk that parking lot every day. And, you know, and they're stalking him, in a sense. And he, you know, said every day they're here. And she said, who's that woman getting in the car with Tom?

She said, oh, girl, that was nobody. That's just Sybil. And so they were just, you know, hey, how you doing? And kept going. But he gets this everywhere. Every day. Through these halls. I'm walking, trying to make it on time. Only reason I'm late is because I can't stop. I have to stop. I have to stop. Because I don't want anybody to say, oh, you like that you big time now you're big time and now okay so I I stop as much as I can right and um so it happens every day the love is is amazing and I love it now Kevin we've been in a situation so you're the business side you're not public but i've been been there where you're watching so so from your vantage point from the corporate side speak to when you're standing back and you're

watching how we interact how we and how that whole thing is happening and what are you then telling your people who say look man i i don't really need to do all that because i've seen you just sort of sit back and just sort of you just you you watch and how people move and i do i'm not i'm not a front i don't i'm not in the front person i'm in the back uh you know we are in the service business. You know, you hear everything that's just been said. We're in the service business. And I do, I have a ministry that God has given my family, who is my dad, who is my world. I work for him. I'm living a dream to service the people that our radio stations and our newspaper are in.

And so when I'm able to sit back and see the Sky Show come to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it's packed at two in the morning, packed, folks are calling line as he was saying, make sure y'all call in work, say you sick, you're going to be at Sky Show. It's amazing. And people are happy. Yeah. They are learning. And we all know that we learn best when we're having fun.

That's right. So sitting back looking at a return on investment, and I'm sorry, you all, because all of you all I've heard, which was in the opening ceremony, everybody's looking for that 12% to find a job to make more money. That's what I took from the opening ceremony last night. Everybody's looking to make more money. Is that we have a newspaper called the Black Cronk newspaper that started our entire company. We all know where print is today, but we're still in business and doing well. And one day, we literally, in two days, we had all these people walk into our offices for new subscriptions. We were like, well, what's going on? And one young lady said, well, I'm here because Tom Jordan said, stop by your local black newspaper and get a subscription.

I couldn't make that up. I remember that. Unbelievable. So I'm able to sit back, watch, and appreciate. Yeah. The show ends in December. 31st. You announced two years ago

the last contract you signed and every folks have just been like okay what's gonna happen what's gonna happen what's gonna happen reach media announced that Ricky Smiley will be sliding to the dunk temporary position but I do I do have a a fear and this is not just radio I have a fear because i look at the state of ebony magazine jet no longer exists ss magazines makes more money from the festival than the actual magazine i look at the fact that there are eight black cable networks that target african-americans that do 1 344 hours of content a week and there's not one hour of news uh and and just so y'all understand, Tom

went after CompUSA. He even went after his own company. When TV One announced my show got canceled, Tom literally went, y'all this is no lie, I get a text message from Kim Whitley and Sherry saying,

Tom just said on the air, boycott TV one I went repeat that again I thought they were joking I text Sybil Sybil like yeah he just did well the company now owns his show owns TV one and didn't sit well with a couple of folks but you were not afraid to hit the parent company. I'm telling you when Tom Joyner is

for you it doesn't matter it really doesn't he has such a sense of loyalty to those of us that he works with and really appreciates hard work really appreciates hard work, really appreciates hard work. You know what I mean? Quality work. And and if you're down for black folks like you are and like he is, then nobody can be against you if you got him on your side.

So I mentioned fear and literally is a fear that we are 24 years away from from America, the nation, majority people of color. I think about the first black newspaper, Freedom's Journal, March 18, 27. They say we wish to plead our own cause too long. Have others spoken for us? My fear is that we're seeing black media disappear. And of the black media that is still here many don't have that same burning fire inside of activism and fighting for our people how do you see the landscape just projecting forward what do you see and what do you want to see streaming Streaming is killing us. We're dying.

It killed print media and they're digging the grave for radio right now. Oh, thanks for those of us who still have to work next year. And by the way, according to the research, more than half of African Americans receive their daily news and information

through radio. That's true. But. Because because of the way. Because of the way the ratings are now. The rating system rating, the rating

system. Arbitron and Nielsen, we have participated in killing ourselves. It's sad and that's the real reason I'm retiring. I'm healthy, I'm strong, I can do this from the moon if I had the opportunity. But the reality is that I'm not having as much fun and I'm not making this much money. So I decided after I got my last contract and there was no extension after that contract, that I would just stop getting up at 3 o'clock in the morning and concentrate on helping students stay in school

at HBCUs. So that's the really, the business, the business, the business part of, of, uh, of radio is not what it used to be. And it's just not as much fun. And we're not, we're not, we're not making the dollars that we're making without, but I can better use my time by getting up at 3 o'clock in the afternoon instead of 3 o'clock in the morning and helping the HBCUs. And that's what I will continue to do from now on. I've taken over the Tom Joyner Foundation. Our biggest fundraiser is

the cruise. The cruise will continue. And we sell out every year and we're going to channel our charter simply says we help students stay in school at historically black colleges and universities through scholarships. To date, we've done more than 29,000 scholarships. We've raised and

donated more than $65 million to HBCUs, and I'm going to continue to do that. And I'll use social media to get the word out as to what we're doing and who we're helping. But I'm just not getting up at three o'clock in the morning no more. You know, people say, you must be used to it by now. No, no, no. God didn't intend for you to get up at three o'clock in the morning. There's nothing up. Hell, I'm a night person. I don't know what the hell I've been thinking all week. Right, exactly.

You call me at 1 o'clock in the morning, yeah, what up? Right. Get up at that, I get up at, wait, my segment is 7.17, I wake up at 7.05. Yeah, and sometimes we hear that. Yes, precisely. Like, dang, it's early. So that's, you know, I said I'd get out before i was asked to get out so uh so that's what that's that's why that's why the show is ending so but what's next for you

i am uh putting in applications at nordstrom's because i like shoes um i'm really hoping to stay in radio i have a couple of things that I'm looking at, and I really want to... I know it's dying, but I just love that medium. Be nice on dying. I don't like it. I have too much debt. Me too.

I'm coming to you on that. I'm coming to you. And I would like to be a part of that resurgence, if you will. I still think that there is a place that we can have as radio professionals to keep that medium going and thriving. I really do. And it is my hope that I can still be a part of a radio program in which, and especially for women, part of my greatest regret is that even in black radio, but in other forms of radio as well, there are not black women who are running black morning shows.

As the host. As the host, yes. Their names are not in the jingle, as we like to say. And I and I want to be in my days of doing that are not over in terms of encouraging young women to get out there and to go for it and to make the money. And I'm not taking anything away from him because he deserves every dollar he's made. But to make the money that men are making because we're still not doing it. We're still not doing it. We're still not doing it. I was looking, I look at birthdays and holidays and stuff every day. And so on my calendar came up yesterday, August 7th was Black Women Equality Day. We have to go all the way to August 7th to make the money that men make throughout that first year. Right. From January to December.

And we have to go to August to make it right. And that's not even the pay quality day for white women. We're like we're still at 58 cents to the dollar. Right. So I just want to be in

a position where we can continue to lift up our black female broadcasters and really make sure that they get what they deserve for all the hard work that they put in as well Kevin we talk about the future it is a matter of of understanding the shifting landscape when I sat down with Cheryl Pearson with Nielsen last year when they released their report on black consumers, three million African-Americans listen to podcasts each week. When TV One canceled my show, I launched a digital show. I had black people and a whole bunch of black people at NABJ. Dude, what are you doing? What about MSNBC or CNN?

I said, well, first of all, I said, no disrespect, Joanne Reid don't own her show. Don Lemon doesn't own his show. They have to ask permission to go cover something. I asked me. We did it. We're averaging 8 million views a month. We're building it.

We're literally talking now about building into a network and folks are going, but why wouldn't you go there? I'm like, because the consumer has shifted. I'm always trying to go where the consumer is going. And so as an owner, what are you seeing in terms of black radio? And I dare say, not even use the word black radio and i dare say not even use the word black radio black media absolutely well first of all on the radio side let's deal with the ad revenue uh 10 years ago it was a 17 billion dollar radio advertising business 17 billion with the b as in boy is currently at 14 and a half 15 billion dollars being spent in radio that's billion 14 and a half billion dollars ladies and gentlemen that's just

not going to go away okay so that's number one that's real hard money so that's a huge thing the number two when it comes to where where we are as a platform of media it's fragmentation it's too fragmented and it's not going to change no so so become more frank it's getting ready to become more fragmented so the issue is here is that billion dollars of multi-billion dollars going away anytime soon no let's put a period there and keep that in your mind mr joyner the time join the morning show and simple i'm still there i never thought about your name in the jingle i just kind of took that for granted i'm glad you said that you know first syndicated show ever how long long ago was that? Were you all 94? Yeah.

I got it. 25 years. 25 years ago. I got in the business in December of 1993. But now you have, I'm not going to name names, three more syndicated morning shows targeting black folk. You got two or three afternoon syndicated afternoon shows targeting black folks. You got some oldie morning shows targeting black folks.

The Quiet Storm. The Quiet Storm Network targeting black folks you got some oldie morning shows targeting black folks the quiet storm the quiet storm network targeting black folks yeah with with the pretty yellow boy i'll be sure and rich media owns most of them it it started by who sir thank you so he's talking all that but he's he's a proponent of that too he's businessman. So my point for that saying, we're not going anywhere. We have to integrate to what today is. So if you're a radio owner, TV owner, you have to integrate. You have to have apps. You have to stream. You have to be everywhere. Is there a cost to that? Absolutely. Is there a revenue following that cost? Six times out of 10, no. Can you go out there and make it? Yes said this to miss kathy times

earlier today boy if you would like to own a radio station or a tv station in america right now there's a ton of inventory out there for you to purchase good or bad is there money to follow absolutely but but to your point kevin and again this is where the vision comes in when you talk about where the media is going. Everybody now podcasting, podcasting. Absolutely. And now there is a business model of podcasting. What folks may not know is that. So when I read Chicago Defender, I was at a media fellowship at Cal Berkeley Evan Williams presented the podcasting Evan Williams is the co-founder of Twitter then he had a company called Odeo O-D-E-O brand new and he talked about podcasting I came back I'm like oh hell we're gonna do a podcast so I launched the first black news source podcast ever at the Chicago Defender in 2005.

Launched a video podcast first ever in 2006. The owners of the Defender were like, there's all this podcast and stuff. I said, if y'all would just get the hell out the way. Let you work. And just let me do this. I'm telling you where we're going. That was 2005. This is 2019.

They just announced three weeks ago their last print edition they are trying to do things today that i literally was doing in 2005 so what this also requires is it requires owners to listen to the folks who are working for them i agree to say they might be on the something and I bet not just blow it off because the revenue stream may not exist today, but it is going to come. Absolutely. No, I agree. And the pressures of the everyday business role, you and I've had this conversation many times, the pressures of an owner trying to pay payroll bills, debt service, sometimes clouds judgment. But yes, if you all have what he's talked about podcasting and things of that nature be aggressive and promote it yourself i hope everyone in this room has your own individual social media that represents you to be able to monetize yourself moving forward and so to answer your question i feel strong about radio today i feel stronger

than ever and that's not blind trust if it it's done correctly, it's a great business. Before I go to questions, is there something in all these years that you wanted to do that you didn't do? Other than date Idris Elba? No, I mean, there have been so many great opportunities from this show, whether it's going to the White House, whether it's broadcasting from South Africa twice. We have not broadcast from the moon. But, you know, I just my my blessings are just overflowing as a result of doing this show. And having worked with a man who has tremendous vision and him hiring people with tremendous vision, we have such a talented staff of people.

That has been the joy of my life because I grew up as an only child. So these are my brothers and my sisters that I get to watch and learn from every day. And my only regret is not making Tom Jordan money. But other than that, I'm really, really good. No, I am.

Don, I've got a couple of regrets and not necessarily in this order, but. We had the opportunity to put Steve under the umbrella. Yep. And egos got in the way.

And we weren't that far apart on money. It was all egos. And Steve, we were going to come under the reach umbrella, and we were going to do a twin tower kind of strategy where it would be me in the mornings and Steve in the afternoons. Egos got in the way. That deal didn't happen. We had the opportunity to do a movie based on the cruise. And we put together for the first time,

Tyler Perry and Rob and- Rob Hardy. Rob Hardy and Will Packer. And Will Packer. They were gonna come together. And again, egos got in the way. So Will Packer did the movie and called it Girls Trip

and somewhere in my stack of stuff is a script and instead of instead of these people, these girls, these women going to the Essence Music Festival, they women going to the Essence Music Festival,

they'll come to the cruise. But, but, but, if your son has not told you, about four months ago I got a call from a showrunner

of two major shows, I won't say the name of it because y'all know who said i i want to get to tom joner about a movie dealing with the cruise and i said here you go he has her information so that might come around a second time i'll be ready i ain't doing nothing. I'm just saying. I know the fact that she called me, so I know that actually happened. Alright, we're going to take questions. We're going to take questions here. First of all, we have microphones

back there, and so if you go to the mic, if I can only have two people standing at one time, raising your hand, not going here, go to the microphone. Now, normally I walk the floor, but it's a little too much space here. So, two standing in one time, I'm gonna go, whoever get to the microphone first, so y'all better walk fast. Walk, walk, hurry up, walk, walk, walk. There you go. Okay, he beat you.

All right, he beat you. Question over here. Name, where you're from, question, no sermonettes. All right, my name is Jaylon Couch, Couch from Detroit, Michigan. Step up to the microphone and talk right to it. I work out of Detroit, Michigan. My question is, what do you have to say to someone like myself who's in radio in regards to the future of just advice in general? Like, what

should I look forward to doing? Turn the microphone up or come closer to the mic. Boom. Can you hear me? Yeah. Talk into the mic. Alright, once again, my name is Jalen Couch. Damn it, you're in radio. Talk into the mic. I'm right here. You hear Boom. Can you hear me? Yeah. Talk into the mic. Alright, once again, my name is Jalen Cowell. Damn it, you're on radio. Talk into the mic. I'm right here. You hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah, it's better. Alright, okay. My question is in regards to what is

your advice to do against someone like me who's in radio in regards to moving forward? Like, what should I look for in regards to my next move, my next step? What do you do in radio? Radio personality. What do you do in radio? Radio personality. What do you do in radio? No, I'm a radio personality. I'm a DJ

for WQHH. Thank you. Got it. You could be an engineer. I got you. Don't turn down any jobs. I never did. That's why I was doing two at one time. Don't turn down any opportunity. Take every opportunity and do the hell out of it. Don't be afraid to fail and learn from your

failures. You don't have vision until you fail first. You have to fail at something to have a vision and don't be afraid of that. Don't be afraid to fail. Learn from your failures. Don't turn down any jobs. My mother used to say that's why God made erasers. And it was just as Tom said, go out there and do it because what's the worst that can happen you just erase it and you keep going of course my mother was also married four times but but the truth is that that is true but but don't just keep going don't and don't let them keep you down you know what you just just keep going and keep plugging because if you love it you're going to keep doing it real quick for me

It's very simple maximize technology Don't let somebody else know the technology and you're just talking I'm part of the closest you'll get to a computer geek who's who's cool, but again, but again By me knowing the technology. i've been able to have business conversations because i know the medium and i'm not relying on somebody else knowing the technical end then when they come in lying to me trying to get me to pay more for it i could say you know you lying because i know the technical piece works and a lot of people who are in the

business especially here don't learn the technical side of the business that's true that's huge today with technology because you can do a lot more things different ways question here greetings my name is Alyssa Camacho I'm a recent graduate from Florida A&M University um and former one of his sons went there go ahead um and also a former on-air talent for wanm 90.5 which is famu's radio station my question is how what tips do you all have for someone like me coming out of college to make my air check different and stand out and the content on it different from my competitors or somebody else Kevin I want you to answer first because you are a hire owner I would say this your air check needs

to sound just as good as your social media when I go look at your Facebook your Instagram your Twitter and your Snapchat so all those need to be tied in and how do you separate yourself not only once you send it who's the program director who's the owner who's the secretary and they should know you if you want the job you need to be in the studio and in the place to get the job you graduated great for you but when i walk out the door i'll meet a hundred more people just like you what separates yourself doing what you're doing right now sybil send thank you notes after you interview with people and stay in touch with them. That's not I'm not talking about the technical part of it, obviously, but your interpersonal skills are going to go a very long way. And your personality is going to come through in your in your air check.

But also maintaining those relationships is going to be very important because the people that you meet today you may not see them for another five years but the impression that you make upon them is going to make all the difference in the world yep try to make your air check as personal as possible instead of talking like you're talking to a mass audience talk talk to one person. Get a person in your head, make it a woman. She's in the front. Yeah, because women control everything. And they control your radio, they control everything. So talk as if you're talking to one person, not 12 million like I have, but if you listen to me on the radio, you can hear me talking to one person. If I'm talking by myself, if I'm talking to somebody

in the room on interview, I'm always just talking to one person because in the end, if anybody is paying attention to you, it's just them and you. It's one on one. It's not one on 12 million. It's just one person. Question. Yes. Hello. My name is Josh Barker.

Mr. Perry, I'm a native of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hey, homeboy, homeboy. And also, I'm a graduate of Alabama State University. AS, AS, AS. I'm not going to hold that against you. I'm not going to hold it against you either. Okay. I'm actually the digital editor at the New York Amsterdam News in New York City,

and I also work weekends at WBLS. I co-host the show. My first question, my only question I have for you, rather, is can you tell us a little bit about the origin of the Tom Joyner Foundation? I've known people who have benefited from that. I just want to know a little bit about the history of that and how it got started and what can alumni, us in here, a lot of us are alums, can do. I know monetary is always good, but what are some other things that we can do to help ensure HBCUs stay strong? Monetary. Always. Monetary. Always.

And monetary. And if you can't do monetary volunteer and mentor somebody. How did the foundation get started? We we we started we always say it's 98, but that's that's when the charter and stuff came through. But we actually started in 97. We'd been on the air. What? Three years, three or four years. Okay. So looking for ways to give back to the community. seven. We've been on the air, what? Three years. Three or four years. Okay, so

looking for ways to give back to the community, that's where I started with HBCUs. It's just that simple. Absolutely. You remember the time when you could dial a number and donate to something?

They had these 900 numbers, remember that that and people abused them they started calling from the from their jobs and their jobs had to pay uh all this money for this is before uh gofundme right it was as simple as dialing down so the light went on and said okay why don't we raise some money with one of these 900 numbers so we got a 900 number first school was my son's alma mater because he runs the foundation was howard and we said if you want to if you want to donate to howard and help a student stay in school through scholarships call this 900 number and And in a month, we had raised

like $60,000, like $5, $15, or $25 at a time, less the agency fee. And then people started, you know, abusing it. And so we changed, we changed that strategy to just donate. And it caught on. People always say that black folks don't support black schools. And that's just not true. I got 65 million reasons why that's not true. We just need to be shown a way to do it. And at the time, the only thing was going on was the UNCF and the telethon. And you, you know, you make your pledge and then you sit there and watch

the television and Lou Ross would say, here's the number and here's the, here's the talent. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and so that's, that's really how it got started. I wanted to name it after my mother, a buddy. But then my partner, David Cannon, said, no, push the brand. And so we call it the Tom Joyner Foundation. Also, your daddy, Hercules, wanted something. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, my dad is named Hercules. I know. Hercules, Hercules. Thank God I'm not a junior. But anyway, but anyway,

that's how the foundation got started. Thank you so much. We literally have two minutes left. I'm going to try to get in. Four questions, go. Young lady, go ahead. Hi, my name is Tiana Sermons. I'm currently a junior reporter for Time Magazine for Kids. And my question is, what is the biggest thing you each

have learned in your work life? Super serve the African-American community. Super serve. Don't be ashamed name your website blackamericaweb but super serve don't be ashamed

why are you always just helping black folks and black schools you know white people listen to you too. No. If someone else wants to listen, fine. But I super serve African Americans. Period. I'm not ashamed of it.

Be true to yourself. Just be true to and know what's going on in your head and your heart. That's what counts the most. And never, ever try to veer away from that. Kevin, slow down and enjoy the moment. Amen. Slow down and enjoy the moment.

And that's something I have to learn how to master better. Me too. I dare say real simple, work ethic. I guess at the inauguration of Obama that was a celebration uh radio one honored Tom and all the folks they came up there and they were talking about oh he's done this and this and this and this and this and so they asked me to speak and I said this is simple if he didn't have work ethic he couldn't do any of those things and so people come up to us all the time i want to do what you do but do you want to work as hard to get there and so if you don't

have the work ethic none of it will happen it's not just getting up at three o'clock in the morning it's literally the work doing the work doing. Unfortunately, we have a hard stop. Our presidential forum comes up right after us. I cannot get to the questions, but there's a media availability with Tom and Sybil. In Sable 7, beginning at 2 p.m., if you have additional questions, that will take place at 2 p.m. I want to say, first of all, I want to thank Kevin. I want to thank Sybil. Thank you.

I want to thank Tom. I want to say first of all I want to thank Kevin I want to thank Sybil I want to thank Tom I want to thank you thank you all it has been it has been fascinating working on the show the last

11 years and which a lot of people may not realize when Tom asked me to do the show was actually at nabj tom was on it was a party in chicago and i walked in yeah and tom was on stage sitting there hyping people up rocking tom had a white suit on i had a white suit on an ascot he sees me I speak he grabs my arm we walk into like one of these side doors in a hallway and he's sitting down Oscar standing right there and I'm like why in the hell are we in this hallway in a party going on in here and said and his opening question was um

what you doing next month like working right uh and so literally and that's when it started on the time during the morning show october 2008 uh it has been fascinating the last 11 years it has been great uh hopping on every monday and wednesday uh And it is because of Jay Anthony Brown and Tom that when I gave a speech in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada at a business conference, I walked in in a blue suit and red tie. And the absolute first question was, where your ass got? Because they talk about it all the time. And I just cracked up laughing. And so that's how a radio bit can go across the world.

And you wouldn't even think about it. And so it's how a radio bit can go across across the world and you wouldn't even think about it And so it has been great I appreciate both of them all three being here at nabj sharing with you We have been live streaming this if you missed it We have it on nabj YouTube and Facebook plus all three of my platforms You can share the link that you could also pass it on everybody else again folks Put your hands together and rise and please. For 25 great years of Tom Jordan Morning Show,

Tom Jordan and Simba Wilkes. I got you. I got you. I got you. In front of the table. Slide right up. Tom, you'll get a photo right here. Step right in front of the table. I'm going to move the table back.

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