#RolandMartinUnfiltered - Brian Flores & NFL lawsuit, National Signing Day, W. Kamau Bell & "We Need to Talk About Cosby"

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

2.2.2022 #RolandMartinUnfiltered: Brian Flores & NFL lawsuit, National Signing Day, W. Kamau Bell & "We Need to Talk About Cosby" On National Signing Day, Former NFL coach Brian Flores speaks about his lawsuit against the NFL for discriminatory hiring practices. Flores, interviewing for a few head coaching jobs, says this lawsuit is bigger than football.Speaking of National Signing Day, Grambling State University's Head Coach, Hue Jackson, will be here to talk about high school recruits and give us his take on Brian Flores.  Plus, Showtime is airing a new docuseries called "We Need to Talk About Cosby," directed and executive produced by W. Kamau Bell. He'll join us to explain why this project was important to the culture and why he was nervous about the project.After serving about half of his sentence, the man convicted of killing Laquan McDonald will be released from prison tomorrow. The NAACP wants the Department of Justice to step in and file more charges.Sen. Mitch McConnell doesn't know how many Black women work in his office.We'll tell you why artists want their music pulled from Spotify.#RolandMartinUnfiltered partners:Verizon | Verizon 5G Ultra Wideband, now available in 50+ cities, is the fastest 5G in the world.* That means that downloads that used to take minutes now take seconds. 👉🏾 https://bit.ly/3zSXx0NNissan | Check out the ALL NEW 2022 Nissan Frontier! As Efficient As It Is Powerful! 👉🏾 https://bit.ly/3FqR7bPSupport #RolandMartinUnfiltered and #BlackStarNetwork via the Cash App ☛ https://cash.app/$rmunfiltered or via PayPal ☛ https://www.paypal.me/rmartinunfilteredDownload the #BlackStarNetwork app on iOS, AppleTV, Android, Android TV, Roku, FireTV, SamsungTV and XBox 👉🏾 http://www.blackstarnetwork.com#RolandMartinUnfiltered and the #BlackStarNetwork are news reporting platforms covered under Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Black Star Network is here. Hold no punches! A real revolutionary right now. Black power! Support this man, Black Media. He makes sure that our stories are told. Thank you for being the voice of Black America, Roller. I love y'all. All momentum we have now, we have to keep this going. The video looks phenomenal.

See, there's a difference between Black Star Network and Black-owned media and something like CNN. You can't be Black-owned media and be scape. It's time to be smart. Bring your eyeballs home. You dig? Today is Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022. Coming up on Roland Martin Unfiltered on the Black Star Network. Folks, the lawsuit by former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores is exploding

all across the country. The NFL is responding and people are saying Flores should be supported by African Americans. We'll talk about that with our legal panel. We'll also be talking with Hugh Jackson, the head coach at Grambling, to talk about of course National

Signing Day and what he's doing down there at Grambling. talk about, of course, National Signing Day and what he's doing down there at Grambling. But he also weighed in on being asked to tank games when he was at the Cleveland Browns. We'll talk about all of that on today's show. Also, Showtime has a four-part docu-series called We Need to Talk About Cosby, directed and executive produced by W. Kamau Bell.

He'll join us to explain why his project was important to the culture and why he was nervous about doing it. Folks, also after serving about half of his sentence, the man who's convicted of killing Laquan McDonald will be released from prison tomorrow. The NAACP, they want the Department of Justice to step in and file hate crimes charges against him. Folks, it's time to bring the funk

on Roland Martin Unfiltered on the Black Star Network. Let's go. He's got it. Whatever the piss, he's on it. Whatever it is, he's got the scoop, the fact, the fine. And when it breaks, he's right on time. And it's Roland. Best believe he's knowing. Putting it down from sports to news to politics. With entertainment just for kicks.

He's rolling. It's Uncle Roro, y'all. It's' Martin, yeah. Rollin' with Rollin' now. He's funky, he's fresh, he's real the best, you know he's Rollin' Martin now. Martin! All right, folks, welcome to Roland Martin Unfiltered. Brian Flores, former head coach for the Miami Dolphins, appeared on numerous morning shows to talk about his class action lawsuit

filed against the NFL for racial discrimination. This is what he had to say to CBS. You filed this lawsuit, which you are aware is obviously going to have enormous repercussions. What was the tipping point for you through your experiences that made you feel this was something you needed to do? Well, I mean, just, you know, I've been on several interviews over the years. And. Look, I mean, this is we didn't have to file a lawsuit for for the world to know that there's an issue from hiring and firing. So why did you international football?

That's correct. A lot of people have pointed this out. So why did you feel you needed to do this? Because we need change. That was that was that was that was the number one reason um and i know there's there's a sacrifice there's risk to that but at the end of the day um we need change we need change um i i know many very capable um black coaches um some of my staff who i know, if given an opportunity or when given an opportunity,

are going to go and do a great job on their interview. And I would just hate for that to be a waste. And I think, you know, we need to change the hearts and minds of the people making those decisions. That's why we're, that's why, you know, we filed the lawsuit. Who are those people? Who specifically do you think needs the change? The owners of the NFL. If you will ever coach in the National Football League again? I'm hopeful that I will. I'm very hopeful.

But I understand the risks of filing a lawsuit like this. But I'm very But I am hopeful. It's something I'm passionate about. But if change comes, and if I never coach again, and there's change, it'll be worth it. You know, we were in...

All right, folks, let's get right into it with our legal panel, which we have every single Wednesday. A. Scott Bolden, former chair of National Bar Association Political Action Committee. Robert Petillo, he's executive director. Rainbow Push Coalition. Peach Street Street Project. Monique Presley, legal analyst and crisis manager.

All right, folks, let's get right into it. Scott, you've looked at the lawsuit. You've read it. 58 pages. Clearly, he did not play around. He did not take this thing lightly. This is, and he's also looking for other folks to join him in going after the NFL. Your thoughts? He's got a lot of facts in the complaint.

I think he's pled enough facts to get past what we call a motion for summary judgment. It's a class action lawsuit. Getting a certified class is really tough, very high bar. But if he gets enough people to come forward, he can certainly try it. He's got a very fine firm representing them. But let's be honest. The reason this lawsuit is blowing up is because it peels the scab of racism out of the image of the NFL. The NFL has one image, 70% black ball players. It has another image, all white owners and majority white coaches. And so it really hits home the heart of the NFL or

what they're concerned about. If you read the facts about the interviews with one team, I think it was the Giants that showed up, inebriated. No, that was Broncos. That was Denver Broncos. He alleged that was Denver Broncos. One of the teams. But he's pleading with specificity. That's hard to get around. Now, of course, the NFL and the other teams

are going to deny that, and we'll have to see what happens. But the fact of the matter is, race discrimination in employment, but also in the hiring, are culpable claims, cognizable claims, and we'll have to see what the court says and how far they get.

If I was a betting person, I think they'd try to settle with him, but if he's on a mission with this lawsuit, then he's probably not going to settle, and we're going to see more action down the line. Monique, the thing here is, one of the things I think is important is that Brian Flores is doing what Colin Kaepernick did not,

and that is he is going on, he is doing media. Kaepernick filed a lawsuit, had his attorneys out there. No, Flores is out there as the face. That was ESPN. He was on, which is the partner of the NFL. He went on CBS This Morning Show, partner of the NFL, was on CNN as well. He is doing these media appearances, speaking in his own voice, saying, yes, I am putting

my career, he's only 40 years old, on the line. And so what you've seen is you've now seen Marvin Lewis, who was the head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals, talk about essentially a fraudulent interview that he did with the Carolina Panthers when he was brought in. Hugh Jackson talked about when he was asked to tank games and get paid for it by the Cleveland Browns as well. It's almost as if it was a strategy that was years in the making. If I were a person who was devising a strategy for how the NFL could be vulnerable to lawsuit. I certainly would be shopping around

with assistant coaches who are talented and with college coaches who should be brought up and tracking what happens in the interviews, whether they're taken seriously or not, whether they're given opportunities or not. The way that the lawsuit and the media is rolled out, it's obvious that a great deal of thought was put into it and that it wasn't something that they just up and pull the trigger on for Black History Month.

And it's methodical and it's very detailed. And I agree with Scott, there will have to be some answering. I wish I could say, though, that I believe legally that there was sufficiency to go the distance. I'm not sure about that at all. But I think that the damage is so severe and the facts are so ugly that if they were smart, they would not just settle but make some promises. They should have a settlement that involves equitable remedies going forward, meaning changes to their way of doing business. Robert, here's the deal. That was 20 years ago.

What I mean by that is this year is the 20th anniversary of Johnny Cochran and Cyrus Meary stepping forward, threatening to sue the NFL unless they made changes to the hiring of black coaches as well as black executives. The NFL agreed to their report, put these changes in place, voted on it in December of

2002. Cyrus Meary, that attorney, one of those attorneys, will be on this show tomorrow to talk about that. Over the years, they made more changes to it, but the reality is the NFL owners who control the league, they flouted the rules. They don't care. When John Gruden was hired with the Oakland Raiders,

now the Las Vegas Raiders, they didn't even bother. Mark Davis said, we're targeting John Gruden. John Gruden signed him to a 10-year, $100 million contract. He was all good. They didn't consider anybody black. They interviewed the black tight end coach

who didn't even realize there was a job posting and the NFL did nothing. So the reality is, the longer they've gone on with the Rooney Rule, the teams have basically just ignored the Rooney Rule. It hasn't done anything for them and the NFL has never punished the teams because it's kind of hard to punish

the teams when the teams are actually your boss. Well, look, Roland, I think I'm far more optimistic about the chances of this suit than many people, just because of the nature of what they pled. So they pled a 1981 action. They have another cause of action

under the civil rights act of 1964. But I think most importantly is the EEOC action that they filed because under the EEOC action, all you have to do is go to the EEOC, get a right to a sue letter that gets you to bounce into federal court. If you can just show that there's a disparate impact to the actions of the defendant in the case, well, that you should be enough to get you past a motion for summary judgment to get you into discovery. That is what the NFL fears more than anything else, discovery. They fear it in the Gruden case. That's why they always try to settle cases like this, because if you get a hold of those internal emails, text messages, meetings, records,

those sorts of things, then you get to see exactly how deep the rot goes. And let's just give some examples from the last couple years. Houston Texans. Bill O'Brien runs the team into the ground. They bring in David Culley just as a black person, and they set him up to lose, and then they fire him immediately when he loses with the sorry team you gave him. You can look at a team like the Atlanta Falcons, my team.

We fired Dan Quinn last year. We let Raheem Morris coach the team. He did a great job coaching the team. Instead of simply allowing him to keep coaching the team, they fired him and brought in a white person. You can look at Lovie Smith in Chicago, fired after a 10-win season. Jim Caldwell in Detroit, fired after taking the Detroit Lions to the playoffs. You can look at Steve Wilks in Arizona, bring him in for one year,

give him a sorry quarterback like Josh Rosen, and then fire him for Cliff Kingsbury. Even if you look on the other side of things, they keep talking about this concept of a meritocracy, as if they were simply hiring the best and brightest. The two Super Bowl coaches, Sean McVay, the reason he's a coach who's the same

age as me, is because his grandfather, John McVay, was the coach of the Giants and the GM of the 49ers, so they put him in the system and bumped him to the top of the line. The other coach, Zach Taylor, the Cincinnati Bengals coach, you mentioned Marvin Lewis earlier. Why is he a coach? Because his father in law was Mike Sherman,

who was the coach of the Packers, and they put you in front of the line. So being an NFL veteran, African American, who's done exemplary work as a coordinator, worked your way up the line, doesn't get you in front of somebody's son or somebody's grandson. Well, I think that's very clear evidence of disparate impact that gets you past a motion for summary judgment and gets you into the discovery phase. Now, I think once that discovery opens up, we're going to see the gates of hell open for the NFL. And what Flores has made very

clear is he doesn't care about the money. He is here to make change and to make a point. They did not ask for damages in the complaint because they want equitable relief. And that equitable relief will come after they get into the discovery process and can show the world what the NFL has really been doing. Think about what a couple emails from John Gruden did earlier this year and now our last year. And imagine what happens when all the internal communications of the NFL are made public. It's going to blow up the entire league, and that's what they're afraid of.

Well, first of all, John Gruden is suing the league, so there's been no settlement there. The thing here that we talk about this particular case that we have to understand is that the NFL has been claiming all these different, oh my goodness, we're about diversity. They painted in racism in the end zones

in every stadium this year. You see them embracing all these black folks performing at halftime. But the reality is, when you look at the numbers, they don't lie. The numbers also don't lie where black coaches outperform, but they don't get the exact same shot. I mean, to the point that Robert Mays got, look, I'm from Houston. The Houston Texans, David Culley was a wide receivers

coach at the Baltimore Ravens, was not considered by anybody to become a head coach. The Texans hired him and again, lasted one year, then they fired him. Right now, they are considering as a serious finalist, Josh McCown who played 20 years in the NFL has never coached in college, has never coached in the pros to become their head coach. Black coaches are going, are you

serious? I gotta put in the dudes and you're gonna hire some dude who played 20 years and has never coached on any level other than as a volunteer on the high school level. And so I think what's important here is that what Brian Flores is saying, I am putting my career in jeopardy,

but somebody needs to take this step. And they tried to mediate this for 20 years with the Rooney Rule. It didn't work. A lawsuit seems to be the only thing to get their attention. Well, the Rooney Rule was an experiment. And every experiment, once it runs its course, is going to have to have some adjusting or lawsuit.

They've adjusted it. They've adjusted it multiple times over the last 20 years. And right now, there's one black head coach in the NFL. In the last two cycles, 16 head coaches have been fired, one black. But you're absolutely right about that. So the numbers don't lie. Sorry, 16 coaches fired, not fired.

16 hired, one black. Go ahead. But let's think about the NFL and the environment. They have an antitrust exception, right? The billionaires, 27 billionaires, who have used, who are used to hiring and firing because they, because of whatever reason, they feel. They're completely unregulated, right? They pay the NFL a good all, right? They're his bosses, if you will. And so insidious racism and discrimination, supremacy, and white privilege is going to run rampant in that environment. You don't have one

Black owner, and even if you did have a Black owner, it really wouldn't matter. And so we shouldn't be surprised that this has come to a lawsuit. These are really open secrets. We haven't even begun to talk about owners offering Flores and others $100,000 to throw games. To lose. Well, which Congress is going to be interested in, to throw games in order to bastardize the draft process. You lose more, you get a higher draft pick. And if you're the black coach, you lose, you lose your job. And get fired.

Same thing happened to Marvin Lewis and he's dead. But you don't get fired after one year anyway, whether you got a good team or bad team. The history that we just heard, the history of black coaches being fired after one year when they've had challenging coaching jobs

and teams, it just makes no sense. Those are great facts, right? You don't need certification or a letter to sue from the EEOC, but I like that EEOC piece being in there because they've deployed enough facts in 1981, they can

meet those standards with those facts as well. And so, let's not be surprised. What we ought to be watching is who else joins the lawsuit or brings their own separate lawsuit. Because then Goodell has a problem. Right? Because the discovery, the emails and what have you,

the Plankins are going to get that. And then it's going to blow the cover of the insidious and the inside track that we never see called the NFL. But here's the thing, Monique. It's not just, we talk about the EEOC, the New York Human Relations

Commission. First of all, they filed this lawsuit in federal court in New York. That's where the NFL is headquartered. Second of all, the New York Human Relations Commission has been extremely aggressive on matters like this. So by putting

those two together, a federal lawsuit and also seeking redress with the Human Relations Commission, it also is forcing this thing further in the light as opposed to the NFL just saying, oh, we can try to get it dismissed in court. You can try that. You still got to deal with the Human Relations Commission. Right. Well, and I don't know that the discovery standards are the same, but I agree with Scott and with Robert

that this case absolutely should make it through to discovery. My only issue and concern is we seem to, I recall, say the same thing about Colin Kaepernick's suit and that once we got into the discovery, we would be peeling back all of the hideousness of the NFL and et cetera and so on. And looking at the fruit of all of that labor, I don't believe that we have much to show for it. So I hope that this turns out differently, but I don't believe that there are just idiots in Idiotville who are writing in the emails, let's make sure we don't pick the black guy. So I'm not waiting for that kind of smoking gun. I'm happy to see whatever there is there.

Well, based upon those John Gruden, Bruce Allen emails, that sucker might be there. We can only pray. And remember, those emails weren't just in the last couple of years. Those went back more than 10 years. And so that's what you did. There were more than 300,000 emails the NFL went through. So it's a whole lot they could be looking at. Go right ahead, Robert.

But there are a million emails. Remember that. And that's the point that I was going to make. Just think about the controversy with the Washington footballs team or the Washington commanders now, or they fought tooth and nail not to have discovery come up because of their sexual harassment issues. If they're able to get class

certification in this case, and I think you can find enough black potential head coaches or potential offensive coordinators who have been part of those sham interviews that they talk about. Because remember, this isn't just head coaching. You have one African-American head coach right now, but even look at offensive coordinators. You've got Eric Bien-Ami and Byron Leftwich.

They look at defensive coordinators. I think there's about eight. And look at special team coaches. They have about four African-Americans. So all the way down the line. So it's not simply former head coaches that can be part of this class. It can be any of those individuals who felt like they've been passed over for racial reasons to join and to become part of class certification. Once you do that, now you instead of just pursuing the Broncos, the Dolphins and the Giants, you can bring in all the teams who wronged those people also

and make it a league-wide issue. And I think that's where you go, where you start getting to that blow-up point, to Monique's point. The difference between the Colin Kaepernick case and this one is, this is a lot bigger, a lot deeper. And by seeking class certification, you really do make it an existential threat to the NFL's organization. Oh, and it's also, Scott, real quick, real quick.

If I don't want to hire you and I hire somebody else, I'm not having broken the law. If I don't hire you because you're black, right, then I've broken the law. I violated the EEOC in 1982. That's a fine distinction, and the NFL owners are going to be arguing that in this lawsuit. But, based

upon your own rules, you are to grant interviews. They're supposed to be serious. If you're able to show, yeah, y'all already decided you were going to hire somebody, like Brian Flores has alleged, like Marvin Lewis has alleged, and you're bringing in people with these fake interviews, I'm not done.

I'm not done. If you bring people in these fake interviews, I'm not done. I'm not done. If you bring people in for fake interviews and then the NFL does not take action against them as their rules say they are supposed to, then you have that problem as well. The NFL, there's a reason why.

And again, tomorrow, we will have on the attorney, Cyrus Meary, who worked with Johnny Cochran to put these rules in place. He's a co-founder of the Fritz Pollard Alliance, which has also worked with the NFL to oversee this. So if they are able to show a pattern where you had fake interviews, they were not real, then they can say, hey, NFL, these are your own rules.

Your teams broke these rules. Why did you not penalize them for doing so? They're going to have to explain that, which is the point why he expanded this thing beyond just head coaching to assistant positions as well. And so there's going to be more talk about it. But he doesn't benefit from that. Who?

He doesn't benefit from that financially. That's a persuasive fact of the law. But he doesn't benefit from that financially. That's a persuasive fact of the law school. But he doesn't benefit from that. From what? He doesn't benefit from them finding, uh-huh, you gave fake interviews and therefore you violated the Rooney rule. The NFL can charge the players,

I'm sorry, the team, but Flores doesn't benefit from that. Well, maybe the point here is Flores is not trying to see me and benefit personally. He's trying to change the system. And so again, never coach again. Well, here's the deal. Scott, he's already, he's already acknowledged that, but here's the deal. It's a whole bunch of, look, I can tell you right now that the black folks who led the Polaroid revolutionary workers who went after Polaroid and tried to get them to divest in South

Africa, guess what? They didn't work again. But you know what they did? They started a worldwide change to divest in South Africa, which led to apartheid coming down. Sometimes you gotta put some shit on the line, and you may lose yourself, but you're changing the system. That's why Brian

Flores is doing it, and he actually articulated that in all of his interviews. He said, somebody has to step up and change this. I'm the man for these times. Are you really lecturing me on why he filed the lawsuit? That's not even what I'm talking about. No, no, no, no. You focused on money.

Uh-uh, Scott. Scott, you brought up money. I'm bringing up him wanting to change the system. Folks, I've got to go to my next guest who understands this. He spent years in the NFL as an assistant coach and a head coach. He actually weighed in on this. We were supposed to talk to him about National Signing Day,

him being the head coach at Grambling. We're going to talk about that as well. But he weighed in with what Brian Flores said by saying he was asked and money was put on the table to throw games in Cleveland. And then what happened? He had a massive losing record with Cleveland. And then he gets fired and they say, oh, you can't coach. That's how this system works.

Folks, welcome to Roland Martin Unfiltered, Hugh Jackson, head coach at Grambling State. Coach, glad to see you. Thank you, Roland. Good to see you, too. So I'm sure, you know, the NFL was thinking, man, all the attention is going to be on Tom Brady retiring. Brian Flores knocked that off the sports page. No, he did, and deservingly so.

Brian is very brave in coming forward and telling his story. I tried to do this, Roland, a while back, and nobody wanted to hear it. And I'm sure it's because of the record. Because people, you know, when you're 1-31, people look at you or whatever the overall record is and say, well, this guy just can't coach. So that wasn't the case. I understand that more now.

I'm just glad that Brian has come out, and I stand behind him 100% in what he's dealing with. But one of the folks who works with you put this tweet out saying, hey, Brian, give us a call. We have evidence if you need it. When it came to being asked to throw games, you responded. Come on, guys. Show the tweet, please.

You responded to that by saying, absolutely. That is what happened. Where you were asked, hey, we'll kick some more money to you on the side if you lose games. No, so I think it's important that we really understand what this is. That wasn't meant that way. It wasn't we're going to kick more money to you if you lose games or, boy, Hugo loses games. They built a team that could not win.

That is different. So you build a team that can't win. You put a minority coach out in front of it, and all of a sudden you have a structured plan, a four-year plan that you put in place that had no wins in the first two years, but it had wins in years three and year four. But you do pay based on percentages of the things that you had in the plan. Aggregate rankings, being the youngest team, having the most draft picks, quarterback playing above a certain percentage. Those things to a coach doesn't say that we're trying to win.

And I really didn't understand it because I've never seen a bonus structure like that. And I didn't get this bonus structure until about a month and a half that I was on the job. And that wasn't even completed until being six months or seven months on the job. So I really still didn't get what it really was all about until I had my team and we started playing games. And I could see my team wasn't good enough. I just came from Cincinnati being Pro Football Writers Coach of the Year. I understand what good football is. I competed in the same division and we just didn't have enough talent. So people got to understand the other side of thinking you can build a team

that cannot win. And the reason why we say we have all the evidence, I've taken this to the national football league. I've had this conversation with Roger Goodell. I went through arbitration with the National Football League. So I've done all these things in order to try to put this out because I didn't want this to happen. I feel just like Brian. I did not want this to happen to another coach in the National Football League. And I said that to them, them being Roger Goodell and the executive committee there. I did not want another man to go through what I went through.

And I went through it alone, and I know what that felt like. So when I see Brian Flores in this situation, I'm not going to let him go through this by himself. And he was a lot, and you know, and I'm sure the text messages and the phone calls have been flying around the last 24, 48 hours. It's a whole bunch of brothers who never got to be head coaches making $2, $3, $4, $5, $6 million.

Look, David Culley is going to get paid out by the Houston Texans. So he coached for one year. He's going to walk away with $20, $22 million. Look, he's set for life. And so a lot of these brothers, they could never say anything because they're making far less than that. They're thinking, hey, I I got to provide for my family. And so when a Brian Flores comes out, 40 years old, this is not a 70-year-old guy now suing.

He is in his prime. That first head coaching job, he is literally saying, I am doing this for the brothers who were in front of me and for the brothers who are coming behind me. Somebody has got to force this thing to change. Absolutely. And like I said, I stand with him in that. That's where I was. That's the conversations I've had with the National Football League.

I wanted to be that guy because I have been to that mountaintop twice. I have seen what this is. I've experienced all sides of this. And there's no way I wanted this be that guy because I have been to that mountaintop twice. I've seen what this is. I've experienced all sides of this, and there's no way I wanted this to happen. I've gone on record saying I didn't want this to happen to Brian because I saw the direction this was going in. You know, the National Football League is somewhat a copycat league. So what was happening in Cleveland, I knew it could show up someplace else, and it just happened to be in Miami.

Okay, to my panelists, I need you all to ask a quick question of Coach Jackson because I have to get to talking about Grambling today, National Signing Day, and this historic marketing deal that Grambling is doing when it comes to their players and their likeness. First question goes to you, Monique. I don't have a question. Congrats, Coach Jackson. Thank you for yourique. I don't have a question. Congrats, Coach Jackson.

Thank you for your work. Thank you so much. Robert. So, Coach Jackson, you mentioned not putting in the rosters, not good enough to win. I think you had Cody Kessler and Deshaun Kaiser at quarterback, and I think Terrell Pryor might be the best quarterback on the team, quite frankly.

No, Terrell Pryor played receiver. Yeah, he played receiver. That's what I'm saying. Yes. He was probably the best quarterback on that team, quite frankly. No, Terrell Pryor played receiver. Yeah, he played receiver. That's what I'm saying. Yes. He was probably the best quarterback. Well, remember, he was a college quarterback, came in as a quarterback, and he switched to wide receiver. Yeah, that's my point.

He was probably the best one on the roster. What would you tell young coaches when it comes to taking that first head coaching position when it comes to going into some of these rosters that are basically destined to fail before they even get there? I think it's so important that you understand your contract. I think you got to really dive down into it to make sure who's making the decisions, understand every word that's in it, because that's really going to tell you what role you have on the football team and creating the team. And then you have to understand what the GM's role is. Are you really going to be collaborative and understand what the upper

management's decisions are? Are we really trying to win? What are we trying to really do here? And I'll go on record as saying there's nowhere in the National Football League does it talk about in your contract losing. Nobody gets paid for losing and nobody takes a job to lose. We take these jobs to win and increase our value. So you better make sure that everything is right for you to have that opportunity.

Scott? Yeah, Coach, one question I have. Brian Flores was a successful head coach at Miami. He had two winning seasons, and then he was fired. That certainly helps his case, or does it hurt his case? No, I think it helps his case. I think Brian Flores is one of the bright, young minority coaches in all of pro football, and it's a shame that he's having to deal with this

at this point in time. He should be celebrating coming very close to making the playoffs and getting ready to get his team better. And now he's out on the out and having to deal with all these things that he's dealt with over over there. Coach Jackson, let's talk about that's now shift to talk about what you're doing at Grambling State University. This video that we're playing right now, this video we're playing right now, Coach, you announced today signing the largest class in Grambling history. Announce your coaches as well.

But you also, let's talk about this unique marketing deal that is also being worked out because now players are now able to get paid for their image and likeness. And look, one of the biggest issues that HBCUs have had is competing against the large institutions. Folks talk about their facilities, things along those lines.

The reality is this is now changing the game economically for you to be able to attract players, not only players coming out of high school, but maybe that person who's a third stringer at Alabama or Georgia who's looking for a shot to actually play and also get paid? Absolutely. I'm really excited about my class. You know, I think my coaching staff, along with Dr. Travion Scott, who's our athletic

director, we did a great job of really going out and getting guys we think will represent Grambling State University the right way. Now, you mentioned about the potential deal that we have, and it's with Urban Edge Network, and it was created to transform the landscape and advertising, monetizing for HBCUs. It is our goal to bring advertising dollars, you know, NIL and streaming video,

enabled by each, you know, ad tech, I should say, to one-on-one HBCU communities, students and alums. Because I think we know now every student on campus is already being monetized by social media platforms. And our solution gives them a chance to be part of the back-owned media world as content publishers who get paid for their social graphs? First of all, I know Urban Edge Network quite well because they're actually the sales arm for this show and Black Star Network. So I know Todd Brown and Hardy Pelt very well. You're absolutely right.

It is about changing the game and being able to drive those resources. And what we're also seeing, look, the number one player in the country signs with Jackson State. All of a sudden, now we're seeing other players from major schools transferring to Grambling, transferring to Jackson State, transferring to Florida A&M. And already people are sitting here going, oh my goodness, what's going on, what they're doing. It's also a matter of you've got players, Howard University, of course, a couple of years ago, signed the number one basketball player in the country. COVID, of course, cut his season short and he entered the NBA draft.

But you're also seeing a new generation of students who are looking at HBCUs in a different way in the last 20, 30, 40 years where, hey, if you wanted to go to the next level, you had to go to a Texas A&M, an Alabama, a Georgia, a Florida, a UCLA, a USC? Absolutely. I think what we're seeing now is that, you know, the Power Five schools, which are great schools, and they normally got the most talent, and now you have a transfer portal.

Now you have the NIL deals that are out, like you mentioned. And I think what's happening is people are now understanding, especially student athletes, that they need to play and perform. And so what is happening is it's not any more about how nice the place looks. It's about the people that you're going to be around for your two to four years in college. And so those things are really starting to make a huge difference with the student athletes because in order to have these great NIL deals, they need to improve their brand. So I think that's what's happening. I think it's all working together. I'm happy that we're paying these young student athletes so that they can have the resources they need in order to have a very good college experience. So I think there's great things happening and I'm just so thankful for the Urban Edge Network.

Facilities, obviously that's important as well. Look, here's the deal. Grambling had to attract you to the university. Jackson State had to attract Deion Sanders. You've got of course the athletic director at Bethune-Cookman is Reggie Theis, former NBA player. It's also

incumbent upon the institutions to create the unique partnerships to bring in the resources to be able to compete as well. And so how are you emphasizing that at Grambling and to other coaches who are saying, you know what, Hugh, I like what you're doing there, but if I go to one of these schools, am I going to get paid? Can I pay my assistant coaches? And can we have facilities? And so all of these things have to happen in order to make it work. You said it. I mean, I think it all goes hand in hand. And I think you really have to have a plan. You have to be very strategic. You have to be very intentional as you do these things. I think

the value for the player, as you mentioned, it is in a nice campus, in the right environment, having the right resources that they need in order to first compete in the classroom and to compete on the football field. I think the HBCUs, we need to step it up. And I think that's what we're in the process of doing. I know here at Grambling, we're going to do everything we can to create every opportunity we can for our student athletes to be the best they can be in every areas. I don't want to be able to talk about HBCUs and I really, because people, when they bring it up, it's like, we're not as good as everybody else, but this is Grambling State we're talking about. This was the King Kong of the HBCUs. And I expect to grow this program every year to a level to

where we're not even talking about resources and issues that way. We have enough people out there who want to see this school be the best it can be, what we need to do. And we all know it. It's about dollars. So we have an opportunity for them to give and be a part of what we're doing. And some people have really stepped up and did an outstanding job. Absolutely. And again, you made this point earlier, Todd Brown, who's with Urban Edge Networks, sent me this text. Urban Edge Network was created to transform the landscape in advertising monetization for HBCUs. It is our goal to bring advertising dollars, NIL, and streaming video enabled by ad tech to 101 HBCU community students and alums. Every student on campus is

already being monetized by social media platforms. Our solution gives them a chance to be part of the Black-owned media world as content publishers who get paid for their social graphs. And so look, that's a huge deal. Certainly congratulations. Good luck. I'll actually be

on campus Monday. The MLK event was supposed to be January 17th. They moved to February 7th. And so I'll be on campus Monday. The MLK event was supposed to be January 17th. They moved to February 7th. And so I'll be on Gramley's campus on Monday speaking to the university there. So I look forward to seeing you, Coach. Thank you. So looking forward to it.

Thank you. All right. And I'll be rocking my – your president gave me a Gramley honorary drum major jacket. So luckily it's black and gold, my fraternity colors. So I'll be rocking that when I come to campus on Monday. Awesome. Come on down. Thanks a lot.

All right. Thank you. Thank you. Folks, I want to go to, actually real quick before I go to break, I'm going to go back to the panel here for about two minutes and I'm going to go to a break. The thing here, why that announcement is huge, Monique, is because it comes down to dollars. The ability to create a program to funnel these dollars to students,

to these athletes. And again, I'm going to go back to the players of recruiting, but if you're a third stringer at Alabama, you ain't getting a likeness and image deal. But you have the ability to come to a Grambling, become a starter. Now, all of a sudden, you can now parlay that. Look, very few people go to the National Football League to get paid. So now there's a system in place to allow players to actually get paid sizable money.

The quarterback at Alabama signed $1 million worth of NIL deals in his first year playing. And so this changes the game for a lot of black athletes and their families. Right. And it changes it much sooner because, frankly, the numbers, even for that 1% who make it to the big game, to the NFL, who actually make a significant amount of money. The numbers are horrible for them actually maintaining the wealth post-retirement or post-career. And the average career, I guess, is what, like 3.5 years. So for this to be able to happen, for an economic empowerment advantage to come to young men sooner rather than later is everything. This means something not just for them and for their families, but for our communities at large.

It's so funny now, Robert, you've got coaches like Lane Kiffin at Ole Miss who's lamenting the fact that players are now making decisions on where they can get the most NIL money. And I'm like, hey, asshole, you were the head coach at Tennessee, left after one year to chase more money at USC. That's what you've done. And you got Nick Saban, who's now complaining as well about the NIL money. Well, guess what, Nick? You're making $9.5 million.

Well, you know, Roland, we were talking about Terrell Pryor earlier. And think about what derailed his career at Ohio State. Selling paraphernalia that he had actually worn in games, profiting off his own image and likeness. The reason that he had to switch to it, why was he in the NFL? Well, because he never got to finish his maturation at Ohio State. So for this upcoming generation of players who are able to control their image,

look at Reggie Bush having his Heisman taken for similar things, this is a game changer for them because through social media, through the ability to make money off your own name, being able to profit off of the work that you like to put in, everybody ain't going to make it in the NFL. So this idea that you're going to put in three or four years of free work to make it later, you know, your best years might be your college years.

Look at Maurice Claret. Look at Lawrence Phillips. The list goes on and on. Allow these young men to make the money now so that they can make decisions about what is best for themselves and for their family. Start investing now and be ready for the future. And Scott, the fact that they're so upset now, because you've got top Black athletes who are now saying,

hmm, Howard, Jackson State, Grambling, those are my first choice. Those are my... on the top of the list. Ooh, it's scaring these white coaches at other universities. Yeah, and-and look at how it's even the playing field. Money has evened the playing field, and people that don it's even the playing field. Money has evened the playing field,

and people that don't look like you and me understand money in college sports, in the TV deals, and the colleges and universities, how the big white schools get paid. Now you have an opportunity for historical black colleges and universities to get paid and attract athletes who believe not only in your scenario where they may

be third or fourth in line in Alabama, but also the fact that they can be a superstar at a historical black college and get paid as much, if not more money on the NIL piece. And so it's going to be interesting the next two to four or five years or beyond in regard to how many black athletes, superior athletes, who have stellar high school careers come to historical black colleges now. Who would have thought that this would be a recruitment tool? Uh, well, guess what?

Y'all create a system, we'll benefit from it. Mm-hmm. But you got to thank a black person like Ed O'Bannon who sued the NCAA over likeness and image. That stopped the NCAA from selling their likeness in those video games. And that lawsuit is what put us on this road to where we are today. And so that brother there is a modern-day Curt Flood. All right, folks, got to go to break.

We come back. Showtime is a four-part docuseries on Bill Cosby. Kamau Bell is the executive producer and director. He joins us next on Roland Martin Unfiltered on the Black Star Network. I've traveled around the world, as you know, and every time I go to a country, they repeat this line from menace to society.

Of course! I was in Japan. I'm walking down the street. These two young boys pass by me. They turn to me. You, you, you! I say, yeah. You Bill Duke, you Bill Duke.

I say, yeah. You know Duke, you Bill Duke. I said, yeah. You know you don't puck up, right? He couldn't even say the word. You know you don't puck up? I laughed so hard, man. Don't you think it's time to get wealthy? I'm Deborah Owens, America's Wealth Coach, and my new show on the Black Star Network focuses on the things your financial advisor

or bank isn't telling you. So watch Get Wealthy on the Blackstar Network. Love is love. Writer and activist James Baldwin. Anthony I thought you were doing Alright folks Showtime is in The docu-series We need to talk about Cosby

Here is a peek. Do not edit this. A lot of people knew. Because you can't do what he did unless you have other people supporting what you're doing. Spanish fly. The girl would drink it and hello, America. Bill Cosby had been one of my heroes.

I'm a black man, stand-up comic. I was born in the 70s. But this? More trouble for Bill Cosby. The accusations just keep coming in. This was complicated. Joining me now is the director, Kamu Bell, and executive producer about We Need to Talk About Cosby. Come on, glad to have you on the show, man. Thanks for having me and thanks

for being in the doc role and I appreciate that. Appreciate that. Indeed, I am in it. You talk about how this was so difficult and even in it how you were like, what am I doing? What's going on here? Why was it so hard? Why was it so painful? I mean, I think you know this. I mean, I'm telling the story that I'm conflicted about. You know, I grew up under, as a child in the 70s, under the umbrella of Bill Cosby. And then as I grew up in life and heard these stories, I came to believe these women who say he sexually assaulted and raped them.

And in the black community, we try to figure out, how do we hold these multiple truths, or do we believe these things, or what do we believe? And I felt compelled to try to invite people to a larger conversation about it through this series, which it seems has worked to some extent. You butch... So you came into this, obviously, with a position.

You absolutely believe that the allegations against him are true. Yeah, I mean, I had looked into these things and done my research, and also I have a lot of women in my life who are talking about sexual assault, and they talk about why women don't want to come forward and how hard it is, and all the women who talk about it in the series, it doesn't help them to come forward in any sort of cultural way because it looks like they're tearing down a black man, especially if they're black, which 33% of the women are

who have come forward that we know about. And so I believe before and after sitting down with many of these survivors, I believe even more so. And I think people who watch the series, many people are also looking at these women in a different way because it's not just the headlines on the news, it's them having conversations

about their lives. One of the things that was very interesting, I had people who were when they found out I was in it was mad as hell. How dare you do this? And I say, well, first of all, you know what the hell I even said. And one of the things that some people have tried to say is, oh, Roland, you talked about all the good things that he did. And what I say, and obviously there was a lot that I say that's not included because you couldn't include all of it. But I was very clear in one part that was included. You cannot talk about black America in the second half of the 21st century and act if Bill Cosby doesn't exist. The only thing that I probably would like to stay in, when you talk to the woman who did the black stuntman's group, their documentary, I thought they were absolutely idiotic taking Bill Cosby out. You can't have

a documentary about this Black Stuntman's union and association and take out the very person who actually led to your creation. That was just the dumbest thing in the world. And so you have this overcorrection, if you will. Oh my God, oh my God,

we can't do this here because it's Cosby. But you can't deny what actually happened that was good for black folks. Well, I mean, that's why we wanted to include that story. I think that Noni Robinson is conflicted about it. I mean, she was clear with that in the thing. And I think at the time that she decided to remove the footage, it was in the middle of all these allegations coming forward. The film, as far as I understand, still has not come out. I hope it does. I hope they figure out how to release it in its best form, but I think as this film has shown,

this is a difficult thing to talk about. Even if you just want to talk about the good parts of Bill Cosby, everybody doesn't want to hear that. I mean, I think the thing that we've done that people seem to appreciate is that we're talking about all of it, and not everybody has an appetite to talk about all of it, but you know that. How do you answer people, and I've already seen these people, man.

They sitting here. Oh, these are two clout chasers. Oh, he's a sellout. I won't be watching. This man is a traitor to Bill Cosby. All of that. How do you respond to the people who are condemning you, me, and others for saying, how dare you even address this issue one i know that

this movie is not for everybody this series is not for everybody it is not a superhero movie so if you're not ready for to have the conversation there's plenty of other content for you to watch but i do know people are appreciating it two i would ask those people where do you come from in this situation if you believe none of these women i just sort of have a hard time how many need to be true for you to believe these women? I mean, I don't know. It's over 60. And since I've worked on the project, I've learned about more women who haven't come forward because they've seen how poorly the women who have come forward have been treated.

So how many do you need to believe to believe that he did this? And on top of that, if you believe these women, why are we prioritizing his voice over theirs? Because isn't some of this about, especially, like I said, 33% of these women are Black. Aren't we also about protecting Black women, not just Black men? Let's go to my panel. Scott Bolden, I'll start with you. Yeah. Good evening.

I think we're all complex and tortured human beings. It's part of the human condition. How come Cosby has to be one but not the other? Can't he be both? Can't he be a great actor, comedian, and been very successful, made a lot of money, and still be a deeply flawed individual? I think that's what your movie concept captures, I think. That is definitely what we were trying to capture. That you, that just, I think we have a sense in this society, and this is true across race, that if somebody does good work,

then that means they're a good person. And I think what we've learned, not just through Bill Cosby, but through many, many powerful white men, good work does not always mean that you're a good person outside of your work. But you certainly shouldn't ignore that, though. You've got to tell the whole story, right? That's exactly, that's what, I have a lot of people who are,

who have watched the series who are not fans of Bill Cosby in any way, and yet are taken away from the fact that they had no idea what he did for the Black stunt industry, or how much he focused on education. So I think that, like, that's what we're trying to do, is tell, that's what I was trying to do, is to tell the whole story, and again, I know that's not for everybody, but I think

a lot of Bill Cosby's legacy will be thrown away if we don't figure out a way to talk about it. Robert? Thank you so much for all the work that you've done. We live in a 140-character society right now. Can you kind of describe the difficulty of explaining things in a full, complex, thought-out way

when people are so used to simply reading a headline or reading a tweet, and that makes up their entire decision-making, their entire opinion, without having to dive that deep in. What's been the most difficult part of trying to explain to people the complexity of human existence? Well, I learned a long time ago that we're not going to solve humanity's great problems on social media. Sometimes social media can help draw attention to things or help draw attention away from things, but we're not going to solve the problems in a Twitter thread or an Instagram post. We can highlight the problems, but we can't solve them. And you're certainly not going to figure out how people can come together arguing with people on Twitter or on social media. So I have given up that side of it, and I gave it up a long time ago. The way that I want to have this discussion is by inviting people to a project that

exists. You can look at it. I've seen Black mental health organizations talk about how they're using it. I've heard about universities talking to use it as a way to teach about complicated issues. I think we overestimate social media's ability to solve problems. And also, some people use social media to weaponize their hatred. And that's not a place where I'm trying to focus my attention. Monique Presley, you served as one of the Cosmos attorneys. You're up. I don't have a question or a comment.

Okay. Come on. One of the questions, one of the folks asked here in our chat, why release this during Black History Month? Technically, it was released January 30th, two days before Black History Month. But I would hope people understand that the director producer of a project does not get to determine when things come out. This thing has been worked on for several years through the pandemic. It had stops and starts because of the pandemic for lots of other reasons.

When we started it, Bill Cosby was in prison. He is out now. So I can't tell you what the reasoning was before releasing it while the bulk of it comes out in Black History Month, but again, technically January 30th. You obviously, I mean, it's in part four where you're almost about to wrap this thing up

and all of a sudden the news comes out in the middle of 2021 that Bill Cosby was released from prison. That certainly threw a mucky wrench in this whole project. Yes, it did. And I think just to even follow up on the Black History Month question, I think that, you know, at some point we thought maybe this project doesn't exist anymore. There are other Cosby projects out there that have tried to come to fruition. I hear Mr. Cosby's working on one himself, a documentary. But I think the thing I want to highlight here is Black people are capable of difficult

conversations, even during Black History Month. I think we have to understand that our relationship to America is always about, how do we negotiate difficult conversations of this country and being Black in this country? And this is yet another opportunity to hopefully build toward healing and understanding, and a greater understanding about how primarily women deal with sexual assault, rape culture, and rape and how they are not invited to tell their stories. They feel shamed by those stories often.

All right. The docuseries, again, four-part. It first started January 30th. Final episode is tonight. But, of course, you can watch all four episodes on Showtime On Demand and check it out. Kamau, we appreciate you joining us on the show. I know you're shooting a movie right now, so thanks for taking some time out.

Always rolling. Anything for you, sir. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so very much. All right, folks. Just a couple more minutes before we actually go to a break, and then in the second hour we're going to be showing our interview with Bill Duke because I've got to actually moderate the HB STEM conversation, so we're going to have two streams that are going to be going our interview with Bill Duke because I've got to actually moderate the HB STEM conversation.

So we're going to have two streams that are going to be going at the very same time. I want to do this here. The NAACP is calling on the feds to file civil rights charges against Jason Van Dyke. He is the officer who was convicted for the murder of Laquan McDonald. He's going to be set to release from state prison tomorrow. The question is, is this unfair? Monique, I want to start with you with this NAACP letter. The feds have been investigating this for quite some time, had not made any decision.

What do you make of this NAACP request pushing DOJ to do something to keep this man in prison or to send him back to prison? Full transparency, I hate it, but I hate it because it seems like with this and a matter that I don't wish to discuss from a few shows ago that you had is all coming and plopping on the desk of my sister, Kristen Clark, who we had to blood, sweat, tears, fast, pray to get her into this office. And it seems like, for real, there is no goodwill, no benefit of the doubt, no, I mean, things that are done that are deals that are made, negotiations, conversations, all is ending up on Twitter and on front pages. And I can't wrap my hands around it because she's well-trained to do the job that she's doing. And they are about the business of doing it the best they possibly can and righting wrongs, institutional wrongs, especially in the past

four years. So I don't know what anybody's endgame is right now, but it's not a good look. Scott? We know that he shot him because he was black, but you don't have any evidence, at least none that I'm aware of in the facts that I've looked at, to demonstrate racial animus. He was a bad cop. He was probably a racist. But you've got to be able to demonstrate he shot this kid and lied about it with the racial intent and the basis for it. And you don't have that. And DOJ, as we've heard from former AGs before, it is extremely difficult

to bring a civil rights criminal action without manifest evidence or words or actions or prior conduct that mandate or support and define you as a racist. The DOJ doesn't want to come out and say they've declined it. They're probably working really hard. But I'm surprised that this officer is getting out so soon. It always seems like yesterday that he was convicted.

But, okay, he got six years. He probably did 80% of that time, maybe all of it. But the fact of the matter is, do you want DOJ to recklessly bring some charges that they can't prove, or do you want them not to? Scott, hold tight one second. Just some breaking news. The FBI has identified six juveniles of interest in the bomb threats against HBCUs. NBC News is reporting this, that this is their lead. Six tech-savvy juveniles have been identified as persons of interest by the FBI to threats to historically black colleges and universities that appear to be racially motivated. More than a dozen HBCUs received bomb threats on Tuesday, the first day

of Black History Month. And again, the FBI is saying that six juveniles, all juveniles, they're suspected of making these threats using sophisticated methods to try and disguise the source of these threats, which appear to have a racist motivation. And so we'll have more on that tomorrow. Robert, real quick, your response to my question before we go to break. Well, what I think, I understand why people have this drive to say, well, the DOJ should step in. You have to read the actual hate crime statute. Unless you have some proof that this officer was a white supremacist, that he had some racial motive, there were comments made, then it will be completely pointless. I think it's abhorrent that he got out of jail after three years, but that doesn't mean that we can simply file charges that we cannot prove. We've got to undermine the entire system.

Robert, Monique, and Scott, we still appreciate it. Thank you so very much for joining us. Folks, go into a break when we come back on the show. Director Bill Duke talks about his long career, talks about what it takes to succeed in Hollywood. He is certainly an OG. You do not want to miss this conversation, my one-on-one

with Director Bill Duke, next, right here on Roland Martin Unfiltered on the Blackstar Network. ТРЕВОЖНАЯ МУЗЫКА Pull up a chair, take your seat. The Black Tape. With me, Dr. Greg Carr, here on the Black Star Network. Every week, we'll take a deeper dive into the world we're living in. Join the conversation only on the Black Star Network. Carriers give you so little for your older busted phone, you just end up living with it? I don't think so.

Verizon lets you trade in your broken phone for a shiny new one. You break it, we upgrade it. You dunk it. Doggy bone it. Slam it. Wham it. Strawberry jam it. We upgrade it. Get a 5. Doggy bone it. Slam it. Wham it. Strawberry jam it. We upgrade it. Get a 5G phone on us with select plans.

Every customer, current, new, or business. Because everyone deserves better. And with plans starting at just $35, better costs less than you think. We'll be right back. What's up, man? Good to be here, brother. God bless you for thanking me for being here. Indeed. How's it going?

Been blessed, man. Been working, man, and doing things in these very challenging times. Right. Had one friend die from COVID. My godson had it, but he got through it. So, you feel blessed to still be here, man. So, you say you're working. You've been working on some interesting stuff.

And one of the things that when I talked to, Richard Lawson said this. He said, I like being old school, but operating in a 21st century world. Yes. Understood totally. You have to keep going, reinventing yourself, and not give up. I don't want to retire because I enjoy what I do. When you retire, everything retires I think. So if you keep going, like you have been going for years and still have it all together,

I want to be like you when I grow up. I mean, I like, for me, it is the... It is the... The joy... So it's like even before we started shooting, this is a perfect example. It is the joy. So it's like even before we started shooting. This is a perfect example. For me, it's the joy of, and I'll tell Mario Van Peebles this, of the shot. You're like, damn, that shot looks good.

So like right before we hit record, I'm sitting here and I was like, are we getting that light that's behind? That's what still interests me and piques my interest is, it's the shot, it's the camera movement. It's the, you know, so, so that's the thing for me. So, so if I play it back, oh, I like that. I like, oh, I like what we did right there. And that's what still does it for me. Yes, me too. People always ask me, what do you prefer, directing or acting? I say I love acting, but directing? I mean, you have the ability to have a voice visually.

And that's something that's wonderful. You know, the way you see things, it gives it validity. Right. And so that's something, I understand totally what you're saying. When we last talked, I told you, I literally watch High Flying Bird every three months.

I mean, I just, I mean, I've seen that. But it's, I watch it and I'm just watching that movement. Ooh, I like that angle. I like how, ooh, that was tight. And I like how, you know, I just like, in fact, we were covering a march. We were covering a march in the March for Democracy. And we were marching with the marchers.

And so Anthony took a rest, I grabbed the camera. And so it was some different stuff I was trying or whatever. And that to me is what still is just so interesting that sometimes like, it'll keep me up at night. I'll be watching stuff and I'm looking at it and like, well, I wanna try that next time we go out and shoot. Ooh, I wanna, I like how those colored lights were used. I'm looking at it like, oh, I want to try that next time we go out and shoot. Oh, I like how those colored lights were used. I want to use that. That's the thing to me

that experiential, that keeps your mind going and flowing. You know, it's interesting that you mentioned High Flying Bird. I think you know this, but it was shot with five iPhone 7 Plus. That's why I watch it. And when they did their dolly shots, they rolled them around. Right.

Because he said, because the story I read, Soderbergh said that had we done a traditional track, I mean, I remember. It was coming down a hallway off an elevator. And he said with the wheelchair, he curved around this way as the characters went that way. He said, a traditional track, I couldn't have gotten that shot.

That's right. So that's what I'm saying. So that's the thing. And I forgot the story. They said he shot with iPhones and I forgot to say the size of his favorite light. I forgot the size. In the story they said he shot all these size of his favorite light. I forgot the size. In the story they said he should always see with his favorite light.

And it was just like, and that was what I'm saying. But that's the curiosity where the satisfaction comes in. Other people may not get it and may not see it, which I think is what keeps the juices flowing and the creativity. And then it's like, ooh, new technology. We can add this.

We can add this and this. That, to me, I think is what is so interesting. Well, it's your vision. You know what I'm saying? Your specific way of seeing life, of seeing the scene, the context, putting that all together, in my opinion, is exciting. And, of course, it takes study and craft and the rest of it, but it's worth it because when you see it on screen, that's how you imagine it.

That's how you saw it. And nothing wrong with that. You did work at Howard University. And... I used to be the head of the department of radio, television and film. When you were there, and even now, do you have the sense that folks who want to direct really are locked in studying the craft?

It's okay. I can tell by the look on your face in the lab, you're like, hell no. Because that's the difference. Look, as you know, the craft of anything takes time, commitment, and study. The craft of it. You can take a camera and a sound system and shoot something, but is it crafted? And it reminds me of a story that a pastor friend of mine told me.

He said, one Sunday, he said, in terms of the craft, nobody wants to do the craft of it. So he said, everybody who wants to go to heaven, stand up and sing hallelujah. Everybody stood up five minutes. Calm down, calm down. Everybody who wants to die, stand up and sing hallelujah. Nobody stood up. He said, how are you going to go to heaven if you don't die? So he wants to go to heaven, but the studying of the craft, as you know, you have to do it. You have to study it. It takes time to learn the beginning, middle, and end of a story, the beginning, middle, and end of a character.

You know, what is a camera? What does it do? Right. What does a camera do? Right. Because camera tells stories, right? But nobody wants to do that. So my niece works for me.

And I have a very small Sony HD camera. Then I've got, you know, three Canon X-A25, three XF405, three C300s. And I said, so I'm going to give this camera for you to shoot. And so I said, do you know going to give this camera for you to shoot. And so I said, do you know how to shoot? She said, yes. I said, no, you don't. I said, you know how to turn it on. You know how to press record.

Shoot it on to use that camera. And I said, have you gotten intimate with the camera? Have you studied the camera? I said, have you grabbed the manual and literally gone through all the functions? And what does it do? I said, have you pushed the camera to its limits? That's right. I said, you don't have to use the camera.

And I was trying to get her to understand that just pointing and shooting, I said, that's not it. That's why when my producers, I tell them, I want you to shoot. I said, but I don't want you to shoot with view, I don't want you to shoot with a monitor. Right. So you take, so you got a monitor on top of that camera there. I tell them, I don't want you to shoot with viewfinder. I don't want you to shoot with a monitor. Right. So you take, so you got a monitor on top of that camera there.

I tell him, I don't want you to shoot. I said, I want you to shoot looking into the eyepiece. Yes. And so when I was at TV, one of my producers said, she's like, why? I said, because when you shoot into the eyepiece, I said, you are seeing the subject. I said, when you shoot with that video monitor, I said, you're actually seeing what's above the monitor, the left, the bottom, and the right.

I said, but when you in that eyepiece, you're looking at it, and you're actually as an emotional connection with what you're seeing. I said, so then when you go into editing, then your first thing is, man, I wish we had this shot and this shot and this shot. I said, so now if you shoot as a producer, when you now go out,

you now have developed an eye for what you actually want. Yes. For that photo to get for you when you edit it. That's right. And they were like, I said, I don't want you to just be a producer. I said, but you need to see it and feel it to understand how to actually be a better producer. Yes.

Well, what you're talking about is not only people seeing it, but feeling it. And experiencing it, yes. Totally different thing. Yep. And that takes the craft and skill. As you say, what are you looking at? What are you feeling? If you don't feel nothing, then how do you expect me to feel? Does that make any sense?

You know how some carriers give you so little for your old or busted phone, you just end up living with it? I don't think so. Verizon lets you trade in your broken phone for a shiny new one. You break it, we upgrade it. give you so little for your old or busted phone, you just end up living with it? I don't think so. Verizon lets you trade in your broken phone for a shiny new one. You break it, we upgrade it. You dunk it, doggy bone it.

Slam it, wham it, strawberry jam it. We upgrade it. Get a 5G phone on us with select plans. Every customer, current, new, or business. Because everyone deserves better. And with plans starting at just $35, better costs less than you think. Pull up a chair, take your seat. The Black Tape. With me, Dr. Greg Carr, here on the Black Star Network. Every week, we'll take a deeper dive into the

world we're living in. Join the conversation only on the Black Star Network. Who, who really showed you the art of the craft? Who said, Bill, no, this is how you direct. This is what you look for. I'll tell you, going to the American Film Institute when Tony Villani was there was an incredible experience for me. But one of the people

who gave me passion was Gordon Parks. Gordon Parks didn't just shoot. He knew how to tell a story emotionally. And so when she's running across the field or whatever, you felt it, right? Because he gave you the understanding of the moment visually. Not just, I mean, it wasn't, she didn't say anything. But when she ran across the field or they did something, you felt it. And that's a craft.

I think it's also, when we start talking about, again, part of this craft, people think visually, but the value of sound. Steve McQueen's 12 Years a Slave. What I love about that, and part of the reason, I guess, for me, I get it, because I only have hosted the show and doing interviews, whatever. But I went to communications high school where they taught us to value the credits after the movie. Yes. My teacher Mary Waits would make us, we had to watch the film to the end of the credits. She said, this is how the movie got made. Yes. But I still watch credits.

I literally don't leave until the credits are over. But watching that, I love how he used these long moments of silence. And all you heard were the crickets in the water or whatever. And it was a trip watching it because there's a natural moment of silence. But then after, you know, you pick up. And I'm watching it and I'm literally going, damn, he made that go 15, 18, 20 seconds. And watching that movie, it's amazing how silence actually became its own character.

You are 100% right, and that's a brilliant observation. You know, when watching a movie, when you're acting, I hate the word acting because it sounds like pretending, but acting is actually becoming. After you learn the lines, I tell my students when I'm teaching acting, you fall into darkness backward. You're not quite sure where you're going, but you trust something in you. So we're in a scene together. One of the most important things is how I listen to you.

It's not I'm waiting to say my next line. Right, right. But I'm listening to what you're saying and what it means to me, and I respond from that. Does that make any sense? Well, because, look, we've done multiple interviews today, and there was no agenda with any of these. So no one was pitching a movie,

no one was pitching a book, no one was. And so there literally were, I have no questions. Now I have knowledge of the subject, the person I'm talking to, I have knowledge of their background, but I literally have no idea where the interview is going. Right. Which means that I actually have to listen to understand where I'm going.

Otherwise, it's just sort of there. Well, listening is a rare craft these days. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's wonderful to talk to somebody that really listens to what you're saying. And sometimes before they speak, they really hear you. And that determines their response. Right, precisely. Tone, whether it's melancholy, whether they're sad, whether they laugh, whatever, that now can change the direction of the

conversation. That's right, and when you're working in the film, it's like the other actor you're working with determines to a great extent your performance. You know, it's like, I tell the story at a time, many, many years ago, I was acting in this film with this new director, right? I was having trouble with the scene. And so I go up to him, he's a young director, I think it was his second film. And I said, I'm having trouble with this monologue here, you know, Can you help me out, understand it better? He looked at me and he said, make it more blue.

Make it more blue. Like sky blue, blue light. This is like 15 years ago, I still don't know what he's talking about. Make it more blue. Do you know what that means? I mean, Miles Davis kind of blue. Blue suede shoes.

Wow. I had no idea I just knew I was on my own now as somebody who is a director but you're acting is that when your director side go you don't know what the hell you doing that's right

because that's not direction that's not direction but That's not direction. But a lot of directors, so the camera, you know, lenses, they know sound, et cetera, and editing. But working with actors and having, because as actors, we have to trust you. Right. And so that, you know, because we're vulnerable. So we need you to really guide us and help us and when we have moments of doubt reassurance of some kind or putting some direction that makes it work for us but to talk to somebody that has no idea what is. That's a very, it's a challenging experience. There have been a number of roles that you played

in. A number of, it was interesting, even when I look at the comedic roles you play, you don't get the comedic lines, but you end up being so serious that it ends up being funny. Right, right. Have you ever actually done just a comedy? Unfortunately, not really, no. See, that's the, okay, so I interviewed Courtney B. Vance. It was the same thing. Courtney did all of these serious roles. And I said, Courtney, when are you going to do, bro, a comedy?

Just, and it was, he was like, bro, it's a good idea. He said, it never really hasn't happened. And then when he did Office Christmas, Office Christmas Party. Oh, my God. First of all, that movie is crazy. And I was so happy to see him. And so even though he played this serious guy, I was cracking up laughing when I saw him.

And so there's never an opportunity to do that. Have you wanted to do that? Well, you know, the closest I've come to that, and people laugh at that scene every time they see it. And I swear to God, I've traveled around the world, as you know, the closest I've come to that, and people laugh at that scene every time they see it. And I swear to God, I've traveled around the world, as you know. And every time I go to a country, they repeat this line from menace to society. Of course. You know what I'm saying?

Of course. It is one of the—look, there are people who play the game of movie lines. Bottom line, it is one of the most iconic lines in cinematic history. And they think it's funny. It is. But obviously, it wasn't designed to be that way. No. It's a serious scene.

Yes. How many times have you done shows where they said, you got to do the line? Well, you know, it depends on the director. You know what I'm saying? And it's like working with creative people, they give you freedom. Now was that written or did you come up with that? No, it was written. So it was written that way?

Yeah. So when you read it, when you read it, you were like, now did you refine how you did it or the moment you read it you knew, I'm going to play it this way? I kind of knew, how can I say this? The character came to me. Right. And when I went in the room with the darkness. Right, right. darkness right right and this little kid like you know i felt like how can i say my father

when if we ever lied to him right right he lied you know what i said i became his father oh yeah you know what i'm saying i knew I know that feeling because when you went, what time? It was like the slow, if you lie to me one more time. That's right. It's like they enunciate every sentence. That's exactly right. If you lie to me one more time, I'm going to slap the shit out of you. That's right.

That's what that, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I don't care what, man, I will go to YouTube and play that damn thing. You know you fucked up, right? That's right. You know, it's like, it reminds me, you know, when, true story, man. If my sister and I were little kids, and my father and mother told us not to ride our bikes on the street but the sidewalk, in those days there was like a community. Yes. So if Mrs. Johnson next door saw my sister and I riding our bike on the street, she would stand in front of us, told us to get our butts in her house in the living room and put our bikes on her porch. She would say, don't say a word.

She would get on her phone and call my father at work and say, Bill, they rode the bikes on the street. My father would say, I'll be there in an hour. That was the longest hour. Precisely. I know that. Of our lives. Oh, you knew about that.

My niece decided not to turn in homework for a couple of months. Now, my wife dealt with, we raised six of my nieces on numerous occasions. My wife was like, you're going to have to go to the school. Now, now I'm already pissed. Because see, now I got to stop what I'm doing. So man, I go to school. It's my oldest niece, Atlantis, one who worked for me. I go to, so I go to her room.

I said, where's her desk? So I go, I'll teach you in 10 minutes. I'm pulling shit out the desk. I'm pulling, I mean, it's stuff like, stuff all, I'm putting all homework and stuff. I said, how many assignments has she not turned in? So, I'm

done. So I'm about to leave. So I'm leaving. And they coming back from lunch. And I turn that corner and they all lined up and she see... And that's all I said. See your ass at the school that's right

so I know for the next four hours so I go to school pick up and it was literally if you take that scene and I'm driving get your ass turn in your homie no get your ass turning your home. No.

You know what's going to happen when we get home, right? That's right. What's going to happen? I'm going to get a whip? No. I'm going to beat your ass when we get home. That's exactly what it was. Look, man. There are consequences. But, man, there are consequences.

But, Roy, here's the thing. Today, if you spank them, that's abuse. No. You know what I'm saying? You know they can call 911 on you now. As the comedian Thea Vidal said, she said her daughter's like, mommy, I can call a cop.

She said, bitch, you gotta get to the phone. I'll never forget Thea Vidal, she said, help me, you gotta get to the phone. You gotta get to the phone first. She said. I love it. She said, you gotta get to the phone first. I love it, I love it, yes.

But it is, I know you have to be saying, I have done all these movies. I have directed, acted, and that is the one, it's crazy. I was in Japan. I'm walking down the street These two young boys pass by me They turn to me You, you, you I say yeah You Bill Duke, you Bill Duke

I say yeah You know you don't puck up right? They couldn't even say the word You know you don't fuck up? I laughed so hard, man. I don't think so. Verizon lets you trade in your broken phone for a shiny new one. You break it, we upgrade it. You dunk it, doggy bone it. Slam it, wham it, strawberry jam it, we upgrade it. Get a 5G phone on us with select plans. Every customer, current, new, or business.

Because everyone deserves better. And with plans starting at just $35, better cost less than you think. Don't you think it's time to get wealthy? I'm Deborah Owens, America's Wealth Coach, and my new show on the Black Star Network focuses on the things your financial advisor or bank isn't telling you. So watch Get Wealthy on the Black Star Network. There are five movies that are on my list of all-time black cult classics that if you have not seen, you cannot come back to my show.

Like, literally. You cannot come back to my show. I have people on my show. Conversations come up, and I would say, have you seen Cooley High? If they say no, I'm like, you are not allowed. I will snatch black cards. Car Wash is one of those five.

You're playing Abdullah. You're playing. And that is, and so same thing. Why do you think Car Wash is also iconic? Why? Well, I think, one, the great Michael Schultz, great director, great human being. But at that time, you know, I don't even think I was acting, man. I was that angry.

Really? I think I was. Because, man, you would feel enraged in that movie. Well, you know, at that time. What year was that angry. Really? I think I... Because, man, you would feel enraged in that movie. Well, you know, at that time... What year was that? That was... Car Wash was... 70...

I'll look it up. Don't worry about it. 79, was it? 78, 79. I'll look it up. Keep going. Isn't that amazing? Is that amazing that you can do that right now?

That's right. Do you know that I had one of the first cell phones? You know how big it was? That sucker was the size of a boulder. You remember that? Man, that was a brick. I thought I was so cool. You could hold a steel door open with that phone. It's the truth man That bad boy there was car wash released

October 22nd 1976 76 that was three we that was two weeks before the presidential election So when y'all saw that was released so you shot that obviously before so you say you were you were angry It was So that was released, so you shot that, obviously, before. So you were angry. It was the context of the times, you know. There were rioting, there was anger, there was a lot of things, and I felt a lot of Abdul with the character,

and I think that's why Michael casteded me he knew me as a friend because we're at the negro ensemble company together and when i was at nyu school of the arts he was there too and i think he knew that i felt that human being and that's why he hired me to do it you know but i just thought the writing in it the directing in it and the people in it, Antonio Farquhar, you know, the Pointer Sisters, Richard Pryor scene, George Carlin, that supporting cast of people, Danny DeVito. It was kind of a conglomerate of good folks, you know? But you also had this cultural, I mean, you had the gay folks, you had Native Americans, you had the gay folks, you had Native Americans,

you had the Jewish son and the owner, you had, I mean, so you had a melting pot of a movie in 1976. And I didn't realize until I saw one of the retrospectives that, because it aired on NBC, that it was too black for him. That there were more, they made Michael put more of the white characters

in the TV version than was in the movie version. And they said, now that's too black. Really? I did not know that. You didn't know that? No, I didn't know that. I actually saw a retrospective. So if you watch the TV version, you see all these white characters that were not actually major parts in the movie.

Wow. You get a retrospective. And he, and he, and he, and Michael said, and I've been trying to, I've been sitting down to interview Michael, and he said, yeah, that they were like, no, no, no, that the movie was too black. Wow.

And they had to whiten it for it to air on network television. That's the reality. In those days, it was... I don't think people really understand the evolution of things, you know? What we came from to where we are today and all of the obstacles that were faced at that time because I think young people today just think this is the way it always was.

When we came up, there was no internet. There was no social media. There were no real self. You remember those? This hit, but when the movie, when Cartwatch came out, you also were, King gets killed, because you write about it in your book, Bill Duke, My 40-Year Career on Screen and Behind the Camera. King gets killed in 68. This movie only comes out eight years after King's assassination.

So, and that's also, I think, people don't realize. This movie only comes out eight years after King's assassination. That's right. So, and that's also, I think, people don't realize. So those, the times operating in, which also made it a lot different. You were talking about, again, those moments. And I want you to talk about, because you write about it in the book, where you talk about, the section's called The Business. Most people focus on the show, but neglect the business. Yes. How do you have to learn that? Was there something that, was there a point where you were focused on the show

and not the business and something happened where you went, oh hold up I better understand the business of the business. I came up in New York as a stage, I wrote plays for the stage and directed my own plays, et cetera, went through that whole process, and became an actor in New York, NYU School of the Arts,

and had a good acting career, et cetera. And I was always interested in directing film, but I was intimidated by the cameras, the lights, the size of the crews and everything. And so I was just like, you know, was afraid to do all that. I was in a TV show called Palmerstown, USA. Oh, no, I remember.

Palmerstown, USA? Yeah, it was on CBS. Yes. Norman Lear? No, I remember. I watched the show. And Alex Haley? Yes. No, I remember the show. again. Palmerstown, USA. Yeah, it was on CBS. Yes. Norman Lear. No, I remember, I watched the show. And Alex Haley. Yes, I remember the show. Yeah, two seasons.

I thought I had made it. It was like set in the South. Yes. Yeah, because I remember you wearing overalls. That's right, Black Family in the White Fence. No, no, no, I remember, yes. And I thought, hey, a TV series, dah, dah, dah, dah. After the series was canceled,

I did not work for two years. Wow. And that's when I said, hmm, I think I better get over my fear of directing so I have other options. And that's when I went to the American Film Institute and started my directing training there. And so that's, you know,

that was a light bulb for me. See, that's, that's the point that you just made that was interesting. Tashina Arnold, I saw her speak here at an event in LA and she said it was 10 years when Martin got canceled where she got another sitcom. And she said, you know, here I'm thinking, oh, you know, hit show, whatever. She said it was a decade

between Martin and Everybody Loves Chris. She said 10 years. 10 years. Wow. You have to have how can I say? Those are not painless times because people think rejection, you just get over it, right? But you don't, man. They say don't take it personally, but when you're rejected and rejected and rejected and rejected and rejected, something happens. And so to survive that, I mean, you have to have tenacity, reinvent yourself, self-worth, because what they're saying is that you're not worthy.

You're not worth anything. And so you can't believe that. But I'm just simply saying it's it hits you. Ten years is a long time not to work. That's a long time. You know how some carriers give you so little for your old or busted phone you just end up living with it? I don't think so. Verizon lets you trade in your broken phone for a shiny new one. You break it, we upgrade it. You dunk it, doggy bone it. S break it, we upgrade it. You dunk it, doggy bone it.

Slam it, wham it, strawberry jam it. We upgrade it. Get a 5G phone on us with select plans. Every customer, current, new, or business. Because everyone deserves better. And with plans starting at just $35, better costs less than you think. We're all impacted by the culture,

whether we know it or not. From politics to music and entertainment, it's a huge part of our lives, and we're going to talk about it every day right here on The Culture with me, Faraji Muhammad, only on the Black Star Network. How did you get into this? Did it just happenstance?

Was it accident? Was it how? Let me tell you the truth about how I got my first directing job. I went to AFI and studied directing. And I was there for a couple of years. And I did a film called The Hero. And it won a couple of awards and stuff, you know? So I had an agent, and we went around

and shopped it around because I wanted to get a TV directing gig or a film directing gig, and everybody said, no, no, no, no, no. I got depressed. It's been a year I did that. I went away. I do trans-tribal meditation. Went to a meditation retreat.

My agent calls me and says, hey, Bill, come back. David Jacobs at Knox Landing wants to talk to you. I rushed back to L.A. I go over to David Jacobs' office, who was a Knox Landing producer. The meeting lasted for five minutes around. And I said, what is this about? Five minutes? Five minutes. And he just told me to leave. So my agent, I said, you're wasting my time. He said, oh. A week later,

my agent calls me and says, Bill, David wants you to direct an episode of Nice Man. I said, what? So we're in pre-production for seven days, and Joel, the line producer, comes up and says, Bill, you did a great job in pre-production. We could tell you're going to be a great director from your reel. I said, what reel?

Oh, the reel from your other shows. I said, no, no, I just got out of AFI. I just got. He said, wait a minute. He goes into David Jacobs' office. David Jacobs had mixed my box up with somebody else's. That's how I got my first job as a director. Wow. Am I lying?

Wow. God has a sense of humor, right? You said, what real? Of all the other shows that you directed, I said. You're like, no, might be another Bill Duke. That's how I got my first job as a TV director. That is crazy. The true story.

What was their response when you said, that ain't mine? I shot the next day. They followed me around for two days to make sure I knew what I was doing now were you nervous the whole time like I could be fired I mean you know it was like you know I knew what I was doing but they were like

yeah we don't know your ass know what you're doing I'm just saying they followed you around like a black person was about a security in the mall. That's right. Exactly, exactly right. It was... So how did they like the episode?

They loved it. I went back and did several episodes after that. Wow. David Jacobs is one of the reasons that I'm in the... I had my career because he laughs. And when it was, he laughed so hard. He laughed so hard. It was like, I made a mistake, but it's a mistake.

I'm like, I'm glad I made it. That is crazy. It's the true story, man. That is crazy. It's a true story, man. That is crazy. I bet they were like, let's go back and did you actually have a reel? No. I had that one film I did.

Did they go back and watch that? No. They couldn't hire another director because it was the first day of shooting. Right. So they had to let me do it. That means God has a sense of humor, right? Yeah, that's funny. They got your real mixed up with somebody else. But what would you say

TV show, stage, movie, the most absolute so I'm going to ask two. What was the most fun

you had as an actor and a director? It doesn't matter what it was. Directing or acting. What project, what movie? Was it a movie? Was it TV? Was it big screen?

Was it stage? Was it off-Broadway? Where you just had fun. I would say the most fun I ever had one of the greatest people that doesn't get the credit he deserves no event peoples ain't supposed to die

a natural death on Broadway it was an incredible cast of people as you know acting on stage is different from being in a film. You don't get no second takes. Right. You do it or you don't.

That's why I like live TV. I'm the same. That red light, come on. It's time to go. Time to go. Directing-wise, Sister Act 2 with Whoopi was great

it was great and also Deep Cover with Lawrence Fishburne and Jeff Goldblum oh man those guys to work with those guys

see how serious they are the two are the funniest people great sense of humor you know one of the one of the best scenes was the sister, I cannot remember her name,

she played the love interest. When they were arguing, she's like, you're fucking up my heart. Oh my God. I read later because she stopped acting because I think she has MS. Yes. And I saw,

because I was wondering what happened to her. But that, I remember that because there was a guy, I worked at the Austin American-Statesman. I forgot his name. He was a television critic. You probably know, and in his review, he said, Deep Cover should have been Oscar nominated. That was... Thank you.

That movie was no joke. That DVD is in my collection. Oh, beautiful. Thank you for that. Deep Cover, that was Goldblum, Fishburne. That was intense. I really enjoyed it. They were great to work with, the collaboration between the two of them.

And they didn't give 100, they gave 1,000%. I mean, wonderful actors, but great people, and talented, and they came ready. And it was a great experience. great people and talented and they came ready. And it was a great experience. What was the most intense that took a lot out of you to do? When I did hoodlum in Chicago, there was a day that we worked 28 hours straight without sleep. Why?

Behind schedule. Had to make it up. Wow. The studio said you're wasting time and money. And so around the 26th hour, we were all exhausted, you know? And I don't know who it was. We were on a lunch break. Somebody started laughing. And you know that when you're hysterical, everybody started laughing at the same time for maybe 10 minutes.

It was pretty serious. That's called that tired laugh. You know what I'm saying? It was intense. It was intense. It was intense. 28 hours straight. See, that's the thing that, again, you talk about the business of the business. People don't see.

You're the director. And when they say, Robert Townsend talked about this here when he hit five heartbeats. When they said, Robert, you don't get this done, the insurance folks are taking over. So when you're directing, you ain't just floating and chilling. I mean, you got to keep this train on. And are they literally on set like hour by hour, minute by minute saying it costs this, this, this? Many times they don't say it.

They're just there and their presence says it. See, people don't understand. See, directing has two components. The creative process. You and the writer and the producers work together for a vision. You've got to translate that vision to the actors, to the crew, to the staff, everybody. Sometimes almost 100 people, right? So you have one vision going in and everybody's on the same page. The second part of directing is management. And you're managing three things, time, people, and money. And if you can't manage time, people, and money, no matter how great a director you are. Right. And is that something that when you are teaching, you might have a student who is extremely creative,

but they can't do that, and you say, one does not work without the other. Well, you may make the movie, and then you should put it in your closet because if you don't understand distribution, marketing, and the rest of it, it's like your grandfather gave you $100,000. Well, how are you going to market it? How are you going to sell the movie? They give him his money back.

Right. A lot of people have passion. I'm not saying anything against passion. Right. But passion without a plan is called frustration. See, I tell people, I often am saying to staff, to others, the business of the business, that sure, you can go out and shoot a great product. I mean, I have these conversations with folks all the time because, you know, with technology, oh man, this Sony camera and the RED camera and, my God, it looks so awesome.

And I remember I was having this, and he was like, oh, my God, it looked great. And I said, they're going to see it right here. That's right. I said, now, I said, now, C300, the body is 9,000. The Canon XF405 is 3,000. And the Canon XA25 was $19.99. I said,

if the XA25 was in $29.99 frame, I said, we ain't streaming in 4K. Mm-hmm. And we ain't streaming in no 6K, 8K. I said, so, why am I going to sit here and spend a whole lot of time and money? I said, when?

It's going to be two minutes right here. Right. And it was like, yeah, but it looks great. I said, yeah, but we ain't trying to sell this to a group of cinematographers. That's right. I said, we got to be able to eat. And a lot of people, as you're building, don't understand the business part. Before December, I couldn't afford the C300s.

So my whole deal was, no, we gonna figure out how to shoot this with them XA25s. And then we got a little bit more money, that's when we bought the 4K405s. Then we bought, now we got five C300s. But it was, no, no, I was like, no, this is the business of the business. That's right.

I'm not about to sit here and kill us financially to try to afford to rent one C300 or buy one C300, hell, when I could buy three 4Ks. But that's the business part that a lot of folk don't take the time to understand. Well, you know, you for years have had the ability to do two things. The visual part of it, right? But like experts like yourself, what you're filming, you get people are mostly attached to it.

Because no matter what they see, like you see a lot of action movies, explosions and da-da-da-da-da. Nobody cares about anybody who dies. Right. But to make people care. Right. For the situation.

Right? Right. See, what I try to tell folks is you need to be able to shoot next week. I'm like, you spent all your money this week. Okay, but can you shoot next week? And then next month. That's right. And that's the thing that I think, so when you shoot next week? And then next month. That's right.

And that's the thing that I think, so when you talk about being a director, I remember when Selma, I read a story on Selma, and the story was on all these directors who passed the movie up. I think Spike Lee passed, Lee Daniels passed, and all these directors said, I can't make this for $25 million.

And Ava DuVernay was like, I can make it for $25 million. She's like, oh, I can. And so, again, that was one of those things where she was like, no, we're going to figure this thing. That's right. And that's the piece I'm always saying. Don't focus on, man, I wish we had this. I'm like, we don't have that. So let's figure out how we gonna take this and make a great product.

That's right. Well, I think that minorities and particularly black folks are alchemists. They gave us guts to invent the chitlins. And we still do that today. It's alchemy, right? Now what you give us. We gonna figure it out. We gonna figure it out.

My grandfather could feed 50, 60 people in a house with two chickens and a pot of gumbo. Everybody had a piece of meat. It wasn't a large pot of gumbo. Everybody had a piece of meat, man. It wasn't a large piece of meat, but you got a piece of meat. That's right. In your gumbo bowl. That's right. That's exactly right.

That's exactly right. And you will figure it out. That's right. You know how some carriers give you so little for your old or busted phone, you just end up living with it? I don't think so. Verizon lets you trade in your broken phone for a shiny new one. You break it, we upgrade it.

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and I have a question for you. Ever feel as if your life is teetering and the weight and pressure of the world is consistently on your shoulders? Well, let me tell you, living a balanced life isn't easy. Join me each Tuesday on Blackstar Network for Balanced Life with Dr. Jackie.

We'll laugh together, cry together, pull ourselves together and cheer each other on. So join me for new shows each Tuesday on Blackstar Network, A Balanced Life with Dr. Jackie. I I asked you earlier about comedy. What is it you've done a lot, but what is it that you have yet to do that you really, really, really want to do? Is there a particular project?

Is there something on acting or directing that you say, I got to do this? Well, actually, there are several things, you know. I've been trying to get it done for years, but it's been difficult. I want to do the Joe Louis thing. Mm. People don't really know who Joe Louis really was. And it hasn't been, there have been documentaries, but there's not, right. He was an activist. Oh. Big time, people don't know that.

For black golfers? Do you know what happened to him when he first tried to bring blacks to the golf clubs with him? That they said, well, you can come in Joe, but not the other people. He said, no, if you don't let my friends come in, I'm gonna go to the papers. They okay. Okay. Okay. Yep. So he brought this friends in and when they hit the balls and the balls went to the holes and they brought the balls out, it was covered with human feces. Human feces. That's one of the things he went through. And then, you know, that he, he did these fights around the world and made lots of money but he took the money and donated

it to the army uh because he believed in the war um because he was an activist um they taxed him you know this story they taxed him. You know this story. They taxed him on the dollars that he gave. And that's how he went broke. Right. After he lost the government. And I just, I always wanted to,

because I just admire him for who he was, what he did, one of the greatest fighters that ever lived. Because what has been created of Joe Louis, oh, he was quiet Joe, didn't say anything. As if outside of the ring, he was just this docile, meek figure. No, no, no, no. Demure. No, no, no. But that's why who's telling the story matters. It's about who? That's why who is telling the story matters.

Yes. Because it's how you now frame a Joe Louis. That's right. Because I think if you ask the average person, when you see the films, he wasn't loud, he wasn't boisterous, he wasn't all of that, but there was something behind that, I call that quiet inferno. He loved us as a people.

He was respectful. He had his own self-caring, but he cared about us also. So he tried to leverage his celebrity to our benefit. And when that was seen, he was cast as a stay in your box. So you're not jumping out your box, Joe. Right. Give me your money. Just shut up.

And he didn't. Paid the price. Last question for you. I ask this of a lot of musicians, and typically the work they cite is the one least appreciated by fans. So out of all the movies you starred in or directed in, what is your favorite that's for you,

that you... Wow. That's a hard one, man. That's... There's one. Every musician will say it was this album. Didn't sell a lot, but it was this album. Didn't sell a lot, but it was this album, it was this song.

So again, it may be something we never even saw, but for you, it meant something personal to you. It spoke to you. I think that... Deep cover. Because it talked about one of the major problems in our community,

which is drugs. And the gentleman who wrote the book was a drug enforcement agent who was fired because he was dealing with what he called the mules on the street, you know, those black folks that sold the drugs to each other on the street, and he said, wait a minute, this is a white guy. They're not manufacturing it. They're not shipping it. They're not shipping it.

They're not the... So he went to his bosses and said, hey, you know, I want to focus on the people in the office buildings and stuff that are blood there. They told him to shut up. Mind your business and deal with the mules. And he quit and wrote the book and was courageous. I just thought that that was, I really wanted to tell that story

because, as you know, the drugs are dumped into our community and we're seen as the, but I wanted to talk about how they got there and so on, so it was an important topic for me. Well, I dare say, first of all, folks should see that. They should absolutely get your book. Can I do a shameless pitch? Yeah, go ahead. I have three things, that book.

I have another book that you can get on Amazon called Works of the Invisible Male. It's my poetry book. And then there is my network that's coming out for the Unite Network and The Journey, which is another book about life's journey. So I'm, you know, like you, man, I never want to stop working, man. I love what I do. And so I don't know how much more time I have here, but I just want to keep doing what I love. I do. And so, don't know how much more time I have here, but I just want to keep doing what I love. Keep creating.

It keeps you alive, right? That's right. That's right. Well, you talk about deep cover, and I know everybody loves that iconic line in Men's 2 Society, but I dare say if they watch High Flying Bird, they invented a game on top of a game. True story. And that's not just in sports.

True, brother. They invented a game on top of a game. That's right. That one line. But I still think my favorite scene though, when y'all in the office and Sonya Son mentioned slavery and you like... And then she's sitting here and then finally she's like, get the fuck out of my office. That's right.

That's right. Oh, I love that scene. I love that scene. When you were like, do not mention slavery in my presence. And she was like, what? Get the fuck out of my house. That's right. Exactly right. I loved it, man. Oh, my God. That cracks me up. That was, you know, again, working with Stephen, man, is... He is a courageous director that deals with topics that are controversial, and that's why I like working with him. It's my third time working with him.

Folks got to see it. I'll tell you. I love checking it out. I love it. Deal Duke. I appreciate it, my man. God bless you, man. Yes, sir. And thank you for your great work that you continue to do on Sincerely, man.

I mean that. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. you you you you you you you you you you you This is an iHeart Podcast.