Rotten Mango - 13-yr-old Twin Brothers’ DNA Found On Murdered Woman - Cops Must Figure Out Which Twin Is Lying

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

A forensic DNA test usually scans about 20 fixed markers of DNA. It may take a few days but it’s enough to differentiate a suspect from the rest of the world with a near perfect level of certainty.   Except for identical twins.   It’s not a perfect analogy but think of DNA as a 3 billion letter book. Most people have about 20 chapters that are completely different. For identical twins, their entire book is identical except for about 8 typos. Not 8 different chapters, or sentences, not even 8 different words. 8 letter typos amongst 3 billion letters.   The technology to find these is only available at a handful of labs and costs hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars. Thankfully, identical twin crime is rare.   Except for Ohio.   A woman who lives alone is raped and murdered in her own home, and the DNA left at the scene traces back to a set of identical twins.   Two 13 year old boys are the main suspects but which twin is innocent? And which twin is guilty?         Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Badaving, baddaboo. In Berlin, there is a very fancy department store, and I'm going to butcher their name, and I'm never going to be able to face a German person with dignity. So I'm just going to call it Berlin's Barneys, Berlin's Sacks. You walk in, and most things are going to be in the cases, the locked glass cabinets. The lighting is always pristine, so everything looks so sparkly in there. It's like the trademark of every expensive jewelry store or department store. The lighting is so good.

You can make a plastic candy wrapper look like some naturally mined yellow diamonds. just sparkling in the light. That's this type of department store. And they don't just carry jewelry. They have very expensive watches, the ones where they say, oh, sorry, that's only for exhibition. And then you have to buy like 10 other things

before they let you buy the one watch that you wanted in the first place. There's a lot of money sitting in those cases. So much so that the store employs motion detectors. They have an extensive security system for the entire place, which is the premise of every good heist movie, every good heist TV show.

The plan is simple. Get in, grab the best stuff, get out, and don't get caught. Plot detail that must be included is the doors are all censored, impenetrable. However, there will be a skylight. You can just unscrew the nails, remove the skylight, throw in a rope, slide down it, just like the three masked men in Berlin will slide down the rope

to partake in a shop after midnight special, where they get the entire store to themselves. It sounds like a movie. This is very much real life. they take $6.5 million worth of fine jewelry and watches. Instead of leaving behind a credit card to finance their very rushed transaction, if you will, or their afterpay details, they leave behind a singular glove. And inside that glove is a singular beat of sweat. DNA evidence. Authorities run the DNA. They get a hit. It's too easy. Of course it is, right? It links back to

someone with a criminal record for theft and fraud. Times two. What do you mean? two counts of fraud, two counts of theft? What do you mean? No, the DNA links back to two people with criminal records for theft and fraud. So what, did they just change gloves in between and they both sweat into it? How's that possible? It's DNA. Two people don't have the same DNA unless you're an identical twin. Two 27-year-old brothers, H&A, are arrested based off of the fact that the DNA and the glove links back to them. So here's what we know. Three mass men, one glove with DNA belonging to one of the brothers. Only one of the twins could be involved or both of the twins could be involved. Neither of them are willing to talk or cooperate, which means it really could be either or.

And that's all the evidence they have. Nothing else. This is a real high story? Yeah, in Berlin. When was this? A few years ago. So like, what do you do? How do we know it's three people? They saw three mass men On the camera? Yeah, but only DNA For one person was left behind And they don't know which twin They don't know if both the twins are involved

If maybe the two twins or two of the three people Or if only one of the brothers was involved So what do you do? Do you throw both in jail just in case? You can't. Wait, so DNA cannot identify which twin? No. Never.

You can now, but it takes sometimes a million dollars. Wow. And there's only a handful of companies in the world that can handle that. Both brothers, the twins, even though at least one of them was most likely involved in the heist, both of them have to be released. Because prosecutors cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt which twin or both were involved in this case. Within the week, both twins are released before the case can even go to

trial and the court writes in a statement, from the evidence we have, we can deduce that at least one of the brothers took part in the crime, but it has not been possible to determine which one. and the diamond heist in Berlin goes unsolved. Identical twins develop from a single fertilized egg. So that splits into two embryos. So they essentially share the same nuclear DNA. And while it's not exactly the same, it might as well be, okay? A normal DNA test done in the event of a crime usually scans about 20 fixed markers.

Because that's how different everyone's DNA is. And that still takes multiple days. 20 spots in the DNA and compare. If you're trying to find the difference between identical twins, because they do have differences, you would have to sequence the entire $3 billion-based genome at ultra-high depth. Wow. One sequencing expert describes it like this. Imagine the human genome consists of a $3 billion letter code. If the body is growing or an embryo is developing, then all 3 billion letters have to be copied.

But during the copying process in the body, there are typos happening. Identical twins have the same DNA, except sometimes, maybe. about eight typos or a few cells will split and evolve differently here and there. But again, it's on average about eight differences across the whole three billion genome. So on paper, three billion should be identical except the eight typos. Yes. There's only a handful of labs that are capable of running this level of a test. And even if it's done, it costs taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe up to the seven figure mark. And a lot of the time, it can't even be really used in court because of how novel it is. It's very easy for defense attorneys to get it thrown out

or for them to confuse the jury with it. Is it going to get easier in the future? Probably. Is it going to get cheaper in the future? Probably. But right now, is it a problem? I think so. Especially when in the United States, you have a case in Ohio of a woman who lives alone getting essayed and murdered in her own room, in her own bed. And the DNA left at the scene, it traces back to a set of identical twins. Two 13-year-old boys are the main suspects of a rape and murder, but which twin is the guilty one and how are investigators going to figure out which one is the killer? This is the case of the cart twins. We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support the Joyful Heart Foundation, who are working to transform

society's response to SA, DVCA, and support survivors healing with resources like education, advocacy and policy change. This episode's partnerships have also made a possible to support Rotten Mango's team of dedicated researchers. We'd also like to thank you guys for your continued support. As always, full show notes are available at Rotten Mango Podcast.com. There is a brief mention of suspected essay and some quotes or statements may have been condensed for brevity.

Let's get into it. Becca and Kyle are no longer together, which is probably for the best, okay? By all accounts, it appears the two are much healthier when they're focused on co-parenting, their twin sons. We've got Hunter Cart, who is two minutes older than Levi Cart. They're identical twins, but they look kind of more like fraternal twins than anything, which is just an observation. It's not like all identical twins have to dress the same or look the same, but it's just an

observation. Hunter and Levi clearly have their own styles, their own personalities, their own interests, they're two completely different people. Hunter has longer hair almost down to his shoulders. And he seems, at least from the initial body cam footage, he seems to have a much more softer demeanor, just base off of that, he seems like the type of student who would sit next you if you're alone during lunch period. Meanwhile, Levi, who often goes by Lewis these days, has more of the skater kid look. He looks a little bit scrawnier. He does have long hair,

but not in the way that Hunter does. It looks like a skater kid. Why does Levi go by Lewis? He just decided he wanted to go by Lewis one day. So everyone's been calling him Lewis. So if you hear Lewis and Levi interchangeably in the body cam footage, it's because they're talking about Levi. But it's not legally changed. No, no, not at all. Now, he's got long hair, sharper jaw line. He also appears to have a soft, quiet demeanor. But in a different way from Hunter, he seems like the type that maybe he wouldn't sit next to you if you're sitting alone in the lunchroom because he too is probably sitting alone is the energy that you get.

Could I be wrong? Probably. Okay. We don't know that much about them yet. other than a match to their DNA was found in a woman's bed, Denise's bed, where she was killed. But Becca and Kyle, the cart twins' parents, they don't know that. Becca and Kyle are just concerned about how this ongoing police investigation in their neighborhood is going to impact their twin sons. Kyle texts Becca, I was telling Levi not to assume the worst, but I knew it was a bad sign when there's just that many cops with no lights on all standing around.

usually means they found a body and they're holding the site down until forensics and investigators arrive. Was she killed at the house? They're talking about one of the neighbors on the street who was just killed in her house. And as much as the parents want to try and shield the teenage twins away from everything going on on the street, it's very hard to do that when you live what? 50 feet away and the police are knocking at your door trying to get answers. They're knocking on everyone's door. The police investigation into what happened to 64-year-old Denise has been both very straightforward.

and complicated all at the same time. Denise's brother, Daryl, is the one that finds Denise. It's Sunday morning. They had lunch plans. She's not picking up. 11.11 a.m. Daryl is messaging her. Are you skipping lunch?

Daryl doesn't know it yet, but she's already gone. Within the hour, he comes to her house. He walks up to the front door and he goes to knock on the door and it just gets pushed open when he knocks. The front door is unlocked. He walks inside and he sees his sister inside laying on her. her bed. Her pajamas are ripped, exposing her chest. Her pajama pants are ripped. She has blood in between her legs. The blankets are covering her face. And on top of the blanket, there's like a

porcelain figurine. Like, you know, those collectibles that you see at those antique shops that have almost like a vintage feel to it, but it's an angel figurine. And it's placed on top of the blanket on top of her head. So her face is covered with this blanket and there's this angel figurine on top of the blanket. And Denise is not moving. The crime scene is just really odd. Even when the police were walking in for the first time with their body cameras on, they're really confused by the scene. Because yes, of course, the angel figurine is confusing. But there's also other things. Like, they asked if maybe the brother, Darrell had covered her up because he didn't want the police to see her like this. But they're like, no, dispatch said he was, he found her like this. There's also a

bunch of cleaning chemicals, like bottles of cleaning chemicals. And peptobismal. They noticed like this pink liquid all over her and it's just someone poured peptobismal on her or maybe she drank it they're contemplating the investigators are like well maybe she drank it we don't know peptobismo is for um acid reflex typically so you've got bottles of cleaning solutions peptobismal cleaning chemicals dumped on her body and just what like are they trying to get rid of biological evidence there's also blood splatter on the walls the blood leads all the way out of her bedroom on the floor there's a trail of blood to the back door and then from the back door to the very back gate of the backyard fence, there's blood there too.

Whoever did this, though, didn't leave any fingerprints. So they're wearing gloves. Police start scouting the neighborhood. They're going to door to door. They're asking residents, can you take your shirt off? Because they found blood, hair, and DNA under Denise's nails. And they're like, we just want to see if you have some scratch marks. So you just see body cam of neighbors taking their shirt off and showing them getting DNA

swabbed. And of course, while investigators are checking for scratch marks or anything suspicious, residents are also sharing what they think happened, okay? One neighbor reports, it might be Dave, Dave. You know, okay, so it's around midnight. She'd been sitting out on her porch, one of the neighbors. She's with a friend, and they're chit-chatting. And they see this balding white man with blonde hair, medium-billed, Dave.

Okay, his name is Dave. And he's drunk. He's drunk and walking around the neighborhood near Denise's property. That was Saturday night. Is he a neighbor? Yeah, he lives in the neighborhood. They go investigate Dave. They don't think it's Dave.

One neighbor asked the officers, You guys think it's random? The officer asks him what he's heard. Well, from what I heard, you know, a guy down in that new house over there, a couple others. I was out here having my cigarette and I hear, I think the brother did it

and they're going to arrest him in a couple days, like three days. I'm like, what? So they think the brother did it. Any reason why you would think that? The brother of the victim? Yeah, Darrell. I don't know. That's just the speculation right now.

So he's just saying he's smoking a cigarette. He overheard neighbor saying, the brother did it. The police do get sidetracked into a mini investigation into Darrell, the brother. He's the one that called 911. He's the one that found his sister's body. He's relatively calm on the 911 call, but not in a particularly suspicious way. To me, it just sounds like he's trying to relay information as quickly as possible. But something that's very interesting to officers is that when the police originally

walked in, they don't rule out the possibility of self-exit. The peptobismal, the cleaning supplies, they find some prescription medication in her house. I mean, it could be possible that she self-exited trying to ingest these chemicals. The blood could have been hers because she could have been throwing up blood from the chemicals. They don't know yet. The investigators, they have no clue. There's a bit of blood splatter, but again, maybe it's hers. Furthermore, one of the first things Daryl tells the officers is that he believes his sister was S-8. How can he be so sure? They didn't think that when they first walked in. Also, Darrell never performed any sort of

life-saving measure to try and save his sister. He says he walked in and, quote, when she was laying on the bed with her legs spread and it looked like there was blood and, you know, on her head and stuff on top looked like someone tried to smother her and she looked like they ripped her thing open and I yelled at her and I didn't see no movement from her whatsoever. I just turned around and I walked out and I'm like, I can't.

He doesn't try CPR. He doesn't try to save her. Not that I think it would have made a difference, but for those reasons, the police do investigate Daryl, and it doesn't help that when they reach Daryl's home, it's a bit of a hoarder situation. And he explains to the officer is almost in an embarrassed way that his mom had recently passed

and his sister had passed, so his home had gotten a little worse from the stress. They check his body for scratches, and they check his DNA, and he is very quickly ruled out as a suspect. But it doesn't stop the neighbors from whispering on their porches and pointing their fingers, One neighbor particularly does not care who did it.

They just want the police to make sure they get vengeance. And they quote, say, find that fool and he needs to die. The police are like, this is a intense neighborhood. They go to the next door. And this time, they're right across the street from Denise's residence. So they've actually knocked on this door prior, but nobody was home. So they're coming back around after they've done their little, you know. And a woman with bright pink hair opens the door, Becca.

she's the mother of twin boys hunter and levi cart she talks with the investigators outside and she mentions the day that they found denise was actually like a really busy day so it's been like a week since that and she's just saying oh my god like that day was really intense for us she explains that when all the ambulances had come onto the street sunday morning they weren't even home actually sunday morning at like six a m we had to run to the er because my son the cat i guess was sleeping on his face and they startled each other in the dark and it scratched him and so we were worried that it could be bad or infected. It wasn't a big deal, but it was just like traumatizing.

And I was like, everybody, get in the car. Cat scratches. Okay, that's very interesting. So the police immediately, a lot of that's going off, right? Cat scratches in the middle of the night. The investigators want to talk to Hunter and Levi Cart. Just to just ask them if they've seen anything weird or strange outside. And Becca is a bit hesitant.

She's just worried about how the news is going to be delivered to them. She doesn't want them super traumatized. They're only 13. She was thinking about ways to break the news to them, but they seemed really stressed out this week and just there's been a lot going on in the house. She mentions multiple times to investigators. She would rather not use the M word murder if we could. You know, she's worried about how it's going to impact them. They're just in the seventh grade.

They've been homeschooled, but also we're about to move out of state. So there's just a lot going on. The investigators quickly find out that the twins, they are 13 and they are very young, but they both do like, watching true crime documentaries, but that doesn't make them somehow better candidates to finding out that a particularly cruel and random crime just took place across the street. So they decide that they're going to be a little sensitive with it. The twins, maybe it's shock or just their outwardly reactions, they take it pretty well. I mean, I guess as well as you would hope two 13 year olds take it. Levi Cart is just listening to the news of what happened to Denise their neighbor. He nods his head

up and down. He's got his arms crossed. He's more in shock and how it relates to him. He's like, You know, this random day, we had to wake up trying to do photos. And then it's this. What does that mean do photos? Yeah, what does that mean, right? So the Cart family explains. Okay, so we're actually like a week or two of moving out of state to Long Beach, California. And so we actually had an appointment that day, Sunday, for the real estate agent to come and take photos of the house so that we could put it up on the market.

So we've been really busy like all weekend trying to make the house super clean and just get ready for the move. And that's the day that Denise has found. So it was chaotic. Meanwhile, Hunter has a more true crime investigative approach. Hunter responds, I don't know how many case details you can put out, but what do you guys suspect? Or what do you guys know about what happened? He's asking questions.

The investigators aren't about to debrief a 13-year-old kid about their investigation. They just respond, well, I can tell you this. It shouldn't have happened. And we need to figure out why it happened so that hopefully we can keep it from happening again. Because we hate to miss on some evidence. And if you've watched enough TV, you know, we don't want to be those cops that forgot to. do this or look into that.

Hunter's like, I've watched plenty TV. Becca mentions, you know, like they're both really into true crime. And Levi shakes his head, no, but Hunter interjects. Me and my brother, especially my brother, know a lot. I would say definitely my brother knows a lot about just the police in general. Levi just looks over at Hunter, kind of looking at him like, what do you say? What do you say? And their mother informs the investigators.

Levi wants to go into the Marines when he gets older. Oh, nice, nice. Well, recruitment is always here. So the police are just going along with it. But they are very suspicious. Yes, because of the cat scratches. I do not believe there's in any world where Becca has any sort of inkling or belief that one of her twins has anything to do with what happened to Denise across the street. So my next question is completely unrelated and hypothetical for parents out there.

If you have more than one kid and you get a call from jail, does your brain immediately jump to one kid over the other? Where it's like, oh, it's probably my second kid because they're a little bit more white. or it's probably my first kid because they've had run-ins with the law before. Like, do you immediately think of one child before you hear the voice on the phone? Or sometimes, okay, maybe jail is extreme. Like, what if you find out that someone in your house, one of your kids, has been Googling traits of a sociopath? Would you have one kid that immediately comes to mind? Or you're like, oh, I'm so clueless.

I don't know why any of my kids would. Would you have multiple kids that you would think of? When the investigators talk to the cart twins, it's been about a week since Denise's murder. And the investigators, they start asking about the past weekend, the weekend that Denise has killed. What were you doing? Do you remember anything? Investigators asked the twins separately. So they're still in the cart house.

They haven't gone to the police station or anything. They're just standing in the living room. And Hunter is like, well, that weekend was a blur because, so Hunter was really sick. Hunter's explaining, like, I was throwing up for a few days straight. I couldn't even leave the bathroom. And Levi had to go to the ER because the cat scratched his face pretty badly. Interesting. And he says, yeah, that whole weekend was a blur.

They asked Levi the same question. And this is, again, separately. And he more or less is the same thing. And he says, that weekend was a blur. It's an interesting word choice. Like, not one that I would often use to describe my weekends, but like maybe that's just me. The investigators are a little puzzled by it, I think. They get the twins together.

Now they're both sitting on the living room couch while the investigators are telling them about what happened across the street. and maybe in an attempt to reassure the investigators, they can handle this type of tense information. Hunter mentions that the two of them are much more mature than the other kids their age, especially Levi, which I would think normally seems like a compliment, but Levi looks a little confused where this is all coming from,

why Hunter keeps yapping. Hunter even brings up Levi's injuries. He has other scars on his back from another surgery that he did, and now he has the new one on his nose from the cat to add to it. And Hunter asks Levi in front of the officers, how does it feel to have three scars? And Levi is just staring at his twin brother, deadpan in the face for a long time, not really answering. Eventually, the investigators want to leave, but not before collecting both of the twins' DNA, cheek swabs for DNA testing.

And it comes back a match for both. But that doesn't mean that they're both guilty, but because they're identical twins, they share the same STR markers, like I said, which means the police now need to find out if one or both of the twins are guilty. So when it came back a match, did we see how they reacted to that? Or we don't have that information? We're going to see. Oh, we do. Yeah.

So the investigators, they go back to the house, but they don't immediately say any of this. Their whole objective is to get the twins and Becca to the police station where they can separate the twins, record their reactions, and start interrogating them. Okay. So they've got like a very tricky balancing game that they have to do of trying to get them there without officially detaining them because they can't. So it's this weird back and forth of like let's go. It's just you have to. Okay. So the DNA could point to both the twins.

You can't just arrest both preemptively because it's one or the other. All of this is very tricky and it's even trickier because they're both minors. So they come up with this profoundly dumb plan, the investigators. We're just going to go to the house. and see if they'll come back to the police station. I don't even think they had a plan. They go back to the cart house and the family, Becca, Hunter and Levi are walking back in with a bag of canes, raising canes and their drinks. They're just about to sit and eat when the police ask them, why don't you guys come to the police station?

Like, do you mind coming with me to talk about what happened across the street? And Becca's like, sure. But then as she's getting ready to go, Becca is like, wait, whoa, why do we have to go to the police station? Like last time you guys just came to the house and you were talking to us, like, why do we have to go to the police station? And she even asked, do we need to be getting lawyers or something? I'm feeling nervous about this. You're welcome to call an attorney. One of the twins, Levi, seemingly agrees with his mom and he's asking, also, do we have to go?

Like, is this a right now thing? Or is it like a we would like you? You don't have to do anything, I suppose. The whole energy is so tense in the house. You don't have to go. But also, like, I'm just going to stand here as a police officer and not leave. So now it feels like you kind of have to go, doesn't it? Becca points out, okay, I don't know.

I feel uncomfortable. And even in my dumbest days, I would not think this is a smart plan for the cops. But they say, how about we get out of here and we kind of explain what's going on? So they're like, let's get out of the house so I can explain what's going on. Can you explain what's going on before we head out of here? Do you mind if we do that outside? The investigators get the entire family onto the front lawn and they're all awkwardly standing there, still holding their raising canes. food and their drinks like hunter is holding two red like soda cups and they're just outside and it's

weird and it's confusing and the officer yeah the officer tells them well let's go to the police station so we don't have to like stand in the rain and talk about it so you went from inside the house and say let's go outside and talk about it now it's raining outside it's drizzling and then he's like well why stand out in the rain when we can go to the police station so they're playing by the air no plan no plan just let me just move them one inch at a time yes exactly I mean again I'm not saying the police aren't doing their jobs, but was this really the best that they could come up with? It's just a little odd. He says that he has some pictures he wants to show them and talk to them about certain things. Becca's like, are we under suspicion or something? We just want to talk to you.

I think you guys could help us clear a lot of things up around here. Eventually, Becca agrees. She gets placed in one car, the twins in the back of another squad car. And of course, the cameras are rolling. Perhaps the authorities were hoping for some kind of Isabel Valdez, Lois Lippert situation, where they just start yapping in the cop car about how they committed a crime. but they do not get that. But the energy with the twins is weird. They're in the back of the police car, still holding their food. And Hunter says, I mean, it's probably more questions.

So, I mean, there's nothing we can't talk about. Levi's like, yeah, I don't know what's going on. Neither do I. Levi mentions this is all very, very unexpected. His voice doesn't sound surprised though, or like he was not expecting it. It just sounds like, just weird. Hunter has a slightly more normal response and he mentions my anxiety levels are through the roof. Yeah, I don't know why there's so many police vehicles either.

Yeah, that's definitely what scared me. Seeing all those cops immediately pull up, like one person's there, you know, didn't see that other cop pulled up, right? Yeah, I was just like, what's the reason for that? I don't know. Maybe it's an intimidation tactic. I guess. But why would they need to intimidate us? Right.

Levi saying that? Yeah. It's just a weird interaction. Because I feel like either you're not talking about the case or maybe you're like, God, I was hungry and I just wanted to eat. Like what's wrong with the cops? Or you're just quiet or you're talking about something else. When they get to the police station, the twins are separated from Becca.

They come in through a completely separate entrance, which seems to be a bold and deliberate choice by the investigators, which I think is kind of questionable. Becca can sense what they're doing and she does not like it one bit. So she was hesitant at the house. She was a little bit agreeable on the front lawn, but still hesitant. Once she gets to the police station, they bring her into a separate room and she's like, oh, fuck no, okay? They're trying to distract her. They keep trying to get her to eat her raising canes.

And she's like, I don't want food. I want to get us our lawyer because she's like, I did not think that I was kind of come to this police station and not see my kids. I'm supposed to be with my kids. They're 13 years old. Why are you talking to my kids without me? What are they telling her exactly in the moment? Oh, we just want to talk to you guys. We just want to talk to everyone.

And she's like, where are my kids? Yeah, she's like, well, you can't talk to them without me there because I'm their mother and they're minors. Yeah. She's like, I want to get us our lawyer and have my children stop being questioned without the lawyer being present immediately. So let's make that happen. I think she is rightfully protecting her underage sons. Like, none of this is out of the norm. Like, this is actually what a good mom should do.

Now, the police, however, they try to stall. And their stalling methods are beyond me. One of the officers complements Becca's slippers. saying they look so comfy, where'd you buy them? And Becca's like, yeah, they are comfy. And she's like, really? I know you're being friendly. But I need to know that my children are not being questioned

and that they have a lawyer. You didn't let us know that we were being detained. You're not being detained. You're free to go. You didn't let us know that you were detaining my children. They're free to leave. Right now? They're allowed to leave right now?

Let's go right now. Right now. You said they're allowed to leave. Yes or no? You cannot take them. Okay? I don't know what the police are saying at this point. They also take Becca's phone so she can't even contact her lawyer, which all of this.

Really, the investigators are working hard to create a migraine-inducing headache for prosecutors later. Like, the DA's office is not going to like any of this. And technically, I do believe in Ohio there is no absolute rule requiring a parental lawyer to be present before police question a minor. But the way that they're handling this, I would imagine, could invite some legal murkiness to say the least. They have Becca in that one room of the police station. Hunter and Levi are separated in different rooms, and they are now going to start questioning the boys separately, simultaneously to get their stories.

Levi is obviously going to be the main focus, mainly because of his curiously timed cat scratches on his face. And Levi is sitting there in this small interview room. He has like that slouched, relaxed body language of a 13-year-old, even though this is a very, very serious day for him. He's wearing a hoodie, and he somehow looks like he just woke up. He has his raising canes a styrofoam container in front of him, a red soda cup with a straw in. So they're just holding this bag and not eating at all the whole time?

Yeah. So they separate, like Levi is the one holding the bag. So they're getting him to open, check which one is his because some people got the coastlaw. Some people got the fries. They bring the styrofoam containers to the other two. So everyone has their food in front of them. And the investigators keep encouraging all three of them, eat, eat. Uh-huh.

And they're just like, why am I here? Why am I not eating at home? Is any of them eating? Levi is eating a little bit in the beginning, but yeah, they all stop because they're like, I don't know. I also think that they just are eating because the police keep telling them to eat, but Becca is not eating. She's like, where the fuck are my kids? Levi says in the interview that there's a bit of context to the whole thing with the cat scratches,

okay? So the family is moving to Long Beach, California in about a week, which means they're packing, they're boxing everything up, right? And quote, you know, cats get weird if you know that when you're trying to move. and we had just moved his play set so that, you know, he probably thought like, oh, something's happening. The officers want to know more about the cat incident. And Levi explains, well, okay, so the cat, Marshmallow sleeps with my mom.

Sometimes my brother, not really with me. So he woke up, you know, and marshmallow is laying on Levi's chest. And I woke up and I was like, what's going on? I was freaked out because I felt something on me and I had had sleep paralysis before. So I was kind of like freaky. And then I tried to touch him and he got obviously skis. He was like, what's going on? Probably. So he started scratching at me, started scratching my face. And he, well, he first started scratching at my arms because I was like trying to get him off of me because I didn't know what was going on. So like he scratched my face. You couldn't really see it. You can't see it anymore. But yeah, he like scratched my face here. And then he scratched me with his biggest claw, which we've been knowing we needed to cut for a while now for a long time. Like he scratched me on the nose like right here really, really hard because we both like extremely spooked each other. Just like a lot of. scratching going on.

But now that he thinks about it, Levi questions, maybe the cat heard something outside because that was the night that Denise was killed across the street. So maybe the cat was like extra spook because animals can sense stuff. Like that's kind of what he's hinting at. What does the scratch look like on his face though?

Now he had stitches. He had five stitches on his nose in the hospital. It's been about a week since then. And the scratch has healed pretty well. But he's saying there were other scratches and they seem to be primarily gone. Like it seems mostly gone. Okay.

So the face, like doesn't look very obvious? It's like a scar on the nose, but it's not, wow. Oh my gosh, you got messed up by the cat. It's just like a nose now. And so maybe marshmallow heard what was going on across the street, got freaked out and scratched Levi. They're like, that's a pretty deep cut for a cat named marshmallow. I mean, to be fair, though, Levi's mom does explain that she felt really bad about her son

getting scratched by marshmallow because they all knew. that they had to cut marshmallow's nails for a while, but they hadn't gotten around to it. And investigators, they need to make sure that they're not so distracted by Levi's cat scratches that they miss other details that might be important, like the fact that Levi has a twin brother, Hunter,

whose DNA was also technically found at the scene because they share the same DNA. Levi is an over-explainer. He likes to go in-depth explaining everything that's happened to him with the cat, but Hunter, in his own way, is also a talker. He's sitting in the interview room with the two officers. He's eating his raising canes, just telling the police about his life story.

He's talking about how they're about to turn 14 next month. And he mentions, when it was mom's birthday, me and Levi were play fighting. And I pushed him and he ended up breaking his hip. Okay. Interesting. At some point, he realizes that the questions are starting to feel a bit more serious. And he asks, can I stop eating? Because they keep telling him to eat.

So I feel like he felt obligated to eat. And he's like, can I just stop eating, please? He doesn't feel comfortable. He also reiterates that he doesn't. doesn't feel pressured to answer any questions. And he says, I mean, of course I feel a little pressure, but I don't feel like I have to sign these papers. I just know more suspicion is put on me if I don't answer any questions.

He immediately starts the interview saying, Can I say something? I want to say, I want to let you guys know. I know this is more so about me, but just letting you know, my brother, every time I talk about it with him, because I someone have a, I wouldn't say morbid curiosity, but I went online and looked up the news for it after you guys came in. So they're like, oh, interesting.

You looked on Google what happened across the street, which in his defense, wouldn't everybody look on Google? But it's important exactly what he looked up. It's one thing to Google, murder on Blank Street. It's another thing to Google. How do police find DNA at the scene? Composite sketch of killer on Blank Street, right? So the investigators ask him, can you show me what you looked up?

Do you have your phone on you? No, I don't have my phone on me. And even if I did, literally the day a few hours after they came in, actually, I don't remember if it was the day before or what. but my charger broke in my phone and it stopped working. And then we were able to get the piece of the charger that was broken in out and now it's charging fine, but the battery is basically fried. So unless I have it plugged in 24-7, it's going to turn off. And if I try to enter my passcode or turn on the lock screen or anything like that, it's going to turn off.

How'd that happen? I'm not sure. For a while, my phone has had a crack in it because I used to have some anger issues. Yeah, I used to have some anger issues not too far long ago, but mostly fixed. I would say we mostly fix all of our anger issues. Honestly, this just kind of sucks because it really seems like obviously I looked into it and I thought about it and my mom thought about it and Levi thought about it. Coincidence-wise because I don't think my brother would be able to do anything like that

because that day he got scratches on his face because that day he had to go to the hospital and then he decided to go to dad's house. So then he wasn't in the neighborhood. It all seems like a very wide coincidence because of course his face was scratched by the cat. So he's almost like working through his thoughts out loud. which is like the last thing you want to do in front of the police, but he's like, no, my phone broke. But like I also know that now that makes everything suspicious because I thought about it. Clearly my mom was thinking about it.

Levi was thinking about it. And then I know that like I don't think my brother would do it, but like I know that he has the scratches on his face, which are kind of weird. He also mentions that his brother Levi calls himself a narcissist. But Hunter is like, but I don't really ever think so. But it's interesting that Hunter mentions that. So when they talk about Hunter's phone, he says the phone is cracked. If you open the case, it's like cracked because the glasses.

is cracked because like I said, I threw it when I had some anger issues before. I used to get mad about games, like losing games and then I would just throw stuff because I was just getting like really, really stressed out. He says that because of his anger issues, he also broke his computer. Okay. Interesting. The police are like, well, what were you doing Sunday morning? Was he also recovering from some scratches?

Did the cat attack everybody? They asked him about the morning that Denise's body was found the same morning that Levi was in the ER for getting stitches for the cat scratches and hunting. says, so I went to bed and then I woke up at like 8.30, 8.50, I don't know. And my mom and Levi were gone and I kind of freaked out for a second. And I checked my phone because this was before my phone broke. And she was like, Levi got the cat scratched. So I had to go. So we had to go to the hospital. And then I think they, I think I just sat for a while before they got home. And then my mom got home. And then that morning, wait. Yeah. No. So we went to bed. I woke up and got those text

messages and then I think I waited a while because I don't know if it was my mom or if it was just mom and Levi who came back home. So he's just like, I don't really remember investigators asked Hunter. Has marshmallow ever scratched anyone before? Like is that why it's so crazy? No, he's never done anything like that. Does he usually sleep with Levi? No, not usually. That's why I thought maybe he heard something outside and wanted to protect Levi. So Levi sleeps in the living room. So they thought, you know, maybe he, the cat heard something, freaked out, went to the living room, and then attacked Levi. But Hunter gets sick around this time. So after Levi gets back from the ER from getting those stitches, Levi actually asked to go to his dad's house. And mom and Hunter think that's actually a good

plan because Hunter's throwing up nonstop. He's like so sick. He's having explosive diarrhea. He's vomiting at the same time in that last multiple days. And whatever Hunter has is probably contagious. And with the commotion across the street, it's just a lot going on. Hunter remembers when he was in the bathroom. He does recall seeing some blood on the sink from where Levi was trying to see how bad the cat scratches were before they went to the ER. He says there was like blood and stuff on the sink and stuff, but mom tried to clean it up, but there was still a little bit of blood after. And we spent a long time in the bathroom and then she was just like, oh my God, Levi got blood everywhere. And then I think it's gone now. Was it a lot of blood or a little bit of blood? A little bit of blood. It's interesting

because the over-explaining can come off suspicious for both parties, but I do feel like it's understandable when you realize they're both true crime documentary watchers. And this is actually something that I thought about in a lot more recent cases because I had this like run-in with a police officer recently. Like nothing was happening. There was no like case or anything. But I just remember I was like looking for where the body cam was on his body while I was talking to him about something completely unrelated because it's just interesting. Now that I watch so much body cam footage, now I feel like I'm looking for body cam cameras because it's something that about it and maybe the same thing is happening to Hunter and Levi because Hunter even states to the police like

also me stuttering has nothing to do with like you guys being here just so you know he's trying to explain that he just stutters so now he's like going into this over explaining territory of like no no no but like I'm trying to be open with you but then even saying I'm trying to be open with you seems like I'm not trying to be open like it's he's over explaining self-analizing yes he even admits to the police that he watches a lot of body cam videos also he goes goes back to explain, you know, like the whole thing of like Levi calling himself a narcissist. So he mentions it and he's like, well, I don't think so. And he explains, he's like, Levi is just the one who always says that he, you know,

he's always saying that he's this thing when he hasn't been diagnosed with anything like it. Like saying he's probably slightly manipulative, like stuff like that just because his trauma has made him feel this type of way. Honestly, it's really upsetting for me. Like he knows all the, I don't know, I don't want to call it disorders because I don't think that's what it is. Like, but sociopath. it's obviously a very wide range of things,

but from sociopaths to narcissists, personality disorders to stuff like that, basically he knows a lot about them and like what they mean. I think it's because he does a lot of research into it because he thinks or he knows that he's slightly manipulative because he's, you know, he has trauma and he's very much so expressive and we talk about all of our feelings and I don't know,

like we're all going through a lot of therapy. So it's almost like now he's just like preemptively telling police things. he's just talking a lot. He continues later to say he's like Levi is very, very open to us about how he's feeling the way he feels. Like I don't want to go in depth about it because I don't know. I think I'm probably using the wrong word. But I guess I don't know if it's like I'm incriminating him.

I think I'm definitely using the wrong word. But like talking about how he has all this trauma, especially abusive trauma when he was a kid, he certainly has certainly has a lot of potential to make somebody who has the mind to do something like that. I know that because he's talked about all these things. Wow. What is happening right now? Yeah. Now the investigators are like, what do you mean?

All these things. I mean, I know from him because he's told me because he's done research about it on the internet. Like his knowledge about what the difference between sociopath and the other ones and knowing how many to kill in order to be a serial killer and you have to kill people and stuff like that. I think it's just like he just so happens to have a. Am I allowed to ask you guys anything? Sure. Do you guys have any suspicions?

Do you guys think he's a suspect possibly or am I crazy? Like, is he not a suspect at all? Is this just normal questioning to try and help solve some stuff and I just seem like a crazy person right now? Is he feeling connecting the thought in that moment? It seems like from the beginning he's just like yapping, yapping and he's an oversharer. And then as he's yapping, he's like explaining. well, my brother would never do this. I know he has some traumatic incidents in his childhood,

which also watching true crime documentaries, I know that that can make someone more, like, capable of doing something like this. So it's almost like he's, like, analyzing. So you know how people will be like, oh, the three trademarks of a serial killer, the dark triad of the personality, right? Like, it's almost like he studied that. And as he's explaining Levi and why Levi could never do something, because I think he walked in there thinking the police suspect Levi because of the cat scratches.

And it seems like he's trying to clear his brother's name. But as he's talking, he's almost getting more and more going down the rabbit hole. What's Levi's childhood trauma? Did they explain or not really? Yes. So he explained that his grandfather on his mother's side is in jail for heavy abuse. I believe his mom was a victim of her own father. and maybe other family members were victims.

Wow. But it seems to be related to childhood trauma in probably the worst way possible. Please just reassure him. You don't seem like a crazy person. Some of the stuff that you said makes sense. And I don't know. Maybe this is a way for them to just keep him talking. And Hunter clarifies,

am I sitting here because he has those scratches on his face and because it looks like he's a potential suspect? Or am I just here to like, clear some things. Like, like, it has nothing to do with him possibly being the person who did that thing. I would say there's inconsistencies with what we know versus what you guys said yesterday, and we're going to get more information, hopefully. And it's interesting to watch because it appears that Hunter goes through weird stages. So the first stage is just explaining and almost like the true crime explaining of like, I watch the body cam footage. I know that we look suspicious,

but I'm going to tell you why we're not suspicious. And like now me over explaining feels suspicious. Like now I'm stuttering and you think that's suspicious. And then it goes to him being like, I know my brother has all the things that could make him possible. But like, and then he's like, wait, am I doing too much? Like, am I, I, I don't even know why I'm here. Why are you guys, why are we talking? Like he lost the plot, right? So he's like, do you guys suspect him or not? Right. Yeah. And they say this vague language of like, well, we're just trying to get more information. And that's when Hunter starts defending his twin. And he's like, well, his cat scratches seem like cat scratches. And the cat has been acting weird. Like he's been acting weird the past few days

because we've been moving stuff around. He's just like a very, very, very needy cat. And Coco, our other cat was a kitten when we got her. So she was just born for like a few weeks. But marshmallow was a year old. So it's possible he had some trauma and that's why he's very, very needy. And just now he's somewhat gotten used to us after, I don't know, like a year or two. And then all of a sudden we start moving stuff around. So it's completely understandable that he would freak out. But to me, it's completely understandable that the cat attacked him because he freaked out because he was sleeping next to him and he woke up. And he tells the investigators, because it's clear the investigators feel like his twin brother had something to do with it. Hunter tells them, I don't think

he did it because, like, I feel he's told me many times. Like, he's a very open person. He doesn't have the capacity to do something like that. Like, I don't feel like he has the capacity to do something like that. And even if he did, like, even if he did it impulsively, he would not be acting so like, oh, I don't care afterwards. Like, he's a kid. And I think most kids, if they killed somebody, they would tell their parents unless they're like, I don't know, like, unless they just like didn't think it mattered at all.

But he talks about this stuff all the time. Now, interesting information to sit on. Investigators who are also in Levi's room have a very different approach from hunters. It could just be that hunter appears to be a bit more talkative and open to give out information without being asked. Whereas Levi seems to give out a lot of information, but only when he's pressed on it. Once the officer is done reading Levi, his Miranda rights,

he needs to clarify and make sure 13-year-old Levi gets it. With these in mind, do you want to have a conversation with me? Well, I guess it states that I can quit having a conversation with you. I'm not sure what this is necessarily about. Do you know what we're investigating? I mean, I know something happened on the street, across the street, across the street in front of me. Right.

a woman was murdered, right? So we're trying to find out what happened. Okay? So that's what we're investigating. The investigators ask him to walk them through Saturday night. And like the wedding is weird. Levi says they all went to sleep. Quote, so we all went to sleep.

And then honestly, it seemed pretty normal. None of us like really woke up for a couple of hours. Neither of them did. How does? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think, I think at like 2.30 maybe, 2.30 in the morning or 2.

I'm not sure in that time area. My cat had randomly woke me up with all the lights off, like sitting on my neck. He says that marshmallow is sitting on his neck, and he decides that he's going to freak out on Levi. Levi says that he gets scratched by the family cat marshmallow. He starts cleaning himself up. He goes to the bathroom. Quote, there was a lot of scratches on me. And then I spent like, I don't know, like three hours maybe or a long time trying to fix myself up again.

Three hours. Yeah. And to give some context, like fixing myself up or the reason why I didn't like ask my mom or my brother or wake them up is because we're literally about to do photos that day. Like family photos? For the house because they're going to sell the house. He explains, I don't want to be this kid that's constantly waking people up or being like an annoyance when they're trying to sleep.

So I just trying to clean myself up the best I could. I tried to like clean up my face. He also scratched my neck. Then I decided to take a shower because I was like, that's probably the best thing I'm going to do. So I took a shower and I spent like, yeah, I guess like 30 minutes in there a long time and tried to see what was going on. And then like, how do I explain it?

The shower sprayer, so like the handheld shower sprayer is kind of reflective. So I was trying to see what was going on. And I was like, okay, well, holy shit, this is really bad. He states he's in the bathroom for three hours. He's showering for like 30 minutes. All of this seems like an awfully lengthy amount of time. But maybe it's just late at night. He doesn't really know how long it was.

Maybe it wasn't three hours. Maybe it was 30 minutes. It just felt like three hours. The officers ask him what he wears to bed. Because that should also have some cat scratches. I don't wear anything to bed. Nude? He sleeps in the living room.

Couch, nude? He sleeps in the living room? Yeah, he's been sleeping in the living room recently, so he's just sleeping in the living room, nude? He says he has some sheets, and there was some blood on his t-shirt that he uses under his pillow. So he uses, like, a t-shirt as a pillow, and he has some blood on there from when the cat scratched him.

This is all very weird. Now, back to the shower. So he's in the shower, and he explains, because of my disability as well, I used like a shower chair because I can't really stand for that long without getting super fatigued or falling or just walking around for too long. And so I didn't use the shower chair because I didn't want to make a bunch of noise and wake everybody up. So I ended up literally falling and I fell and like hit my head on the shower hose. He says the shower chair is outside the bathroom and he didn't bring it in himself because I'm also not like really strong enough to do that.

So I never do that. Is it heavy? Yeah, it's pretty heavy. Well, not that heavy. just like I know it's too heavy for me to have enough strength to pick it up. The police are a little confused because like, why not just tell your mom at this point? He keeps mentioning the house photos and the detectives are like, well, you're not in the house photos.

I know, but I don't want to have to like wake her up and have her tired or have her be annoyed that I was getting her up super early and it was like 2.2.30. Now, by all means, it seems like Becca is not the type of mom to be upset. So the bleeding kind of stops and Levi decides to just try and eat and watch some YouTube. but he says I was doing that and as I was watching YouTube I was super exhausted honestly like shit because I barely got any sleep and I was just like I don't know what to do I know I can't go to sleep in this state so I started kind of crying honestly kind of loud he says he starts crying so loudly that's what wakes his mom up and it's just interesting like his body language to watch in there

like he has these he'll yawn in the middle of a sentence and it's not a pause it's not like he's pausing and getting bored and yawning which would already be alarming and it plays interrogation, but he'll just be talking about how he wanted to eat and watch some TV after he cleaned himself up. So he's like, I'm just going to sit down and eat and watch some TV and then and then I ate. It could be the stress of the interrogation, not that he's guilty. It's just a stressful thing to be in a crowded room with two investigators as a 13 year old having no idea where the lawyer is or where your mom is, but it's weird. At this point, it's like 5.30 a.m. He says, thankfully, once he started crying, his mom came down the stairs and was like, are you okay? He says, no, not really.

and I was still crying and she told me not to cry because I would make it worse. And then something to make this situation more funny, quote, unquote. As soon as she went in the kitchen, she opened the cabinet and got the band-aids. So this entire time that I looked for band-aids for like 30 minutes, it was right there in the kitchen. But when he gets back to the house after going to the ER, he says that he was super emotionally triggered. He says the cat had scratched him. He starts seeing investigators outside, ambulances outside, across the street. And he just wanted to go to his dad's for a few days.

days, even though that was never part of the original schedule. But you didn't know what was wrong with Denise, right? I mean, like you just saw ambulances. That's about it. Yeah, I just thought it's just crazy, though. It was crazy in my mind and I started assuming what had happened. What did you think happened? I don't know. I just thought you thought it was a coincidence. I didn't think it was a coincidence. I was just jumping to conclusions. Mom was like, she probably just had an accident or she fell over and I was like hopefully I was like yeah and even this right now is honestly starting to make me feel kind of emotionally triggered when you get triggered does it ever make you angry? No, just it makes me sad sad or like hyper emotional so it made me feel like really gross that

something else had happened and I was already in an emotionally triggered state so I kind of felt like really sick to my stomach and I felt really gross having to think about what if something happened to somebody right next to me or the house right in front of me, and it made me feel really sad, and I started crying even worse. Hunter didn't even know what to do, so I decided to go upstairs, so I could try and stop thinking about it,

but, you know, I didn't like having to think about something else was happening, so I didn't have to feel worse. It's just weird. So he asks his dad to pick him up so that he doesn't have to think about something else happening to somebody while something had happened to him, and there's just a lot of cop cars,

and he stays there for probably a week, trying to feel better until he comes back. Have you ever been in Denise's house? Levi responds. Neither my mom, my brother, or me have ever been in that house or even close other than, I guess, walking distance. But he does mention that Hunter, his brother, would mow lawns over the summer. But Levi isn't sure whose lawns he mowed.

At some point, he mentions, I heard my mom and my brother, my brother loves true crime or something, he's very investigative. He tried to search up the audio. I didn't hear it. or I guess they said that there was like a 911 call, I guess. They, or my mom said that maybe she had been raped or that somebody said that it looked like she had been raped, which in my mind doesn't really feel like self-defense if it was rape. Doesn't feel like self-defense.

Yeah. What doesn't feel like self-defense? So the investigators are like, well, we don't really know what happened to Denise. Maybe someone went in there and Denise attacked them. Like maybe it's self-defense. He's like, well, if she was raped, it wasn't self-defense. And it's just a lot of weird conversations happening. And at some point, the investigator says he's just trying to wrap his brain around this.

Like the investigator is like, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around this entire case. I don't know how it happened. There's two people there. But I don't know how it happened. And I'm just trying to figure it out. Levi response could have been three people. I don't know. That's a crazy response.

Well, I mean, yeah, there could have been more people. You know, they can't rule out the possibilities. But investigators believe that there was only one person involved. they need to know which person it was. And so far, it's looking like Levi is the one they're most suspicious of, especially with the cat scratches, until they find out that there could be a chance that he's not capable of being the killer. Investigators find out that Levi has cerebral palsy, which is a group of movement and posture

disorders. Cerebral being the brain and palsy being weakness or problems with movement. So usually this forms from an injury in part of the brain. of the brain that control the muscles. So it's not from the muscles themselves, but it's from the brain that controls the muscles. Now, investigators have to figure out if Levi's CP would make it

so that it would be impossible for him to carry out an essay and murder. And there's just a lot of people that live with CP that live completely normal lives where they play intense sports, where they, it's actually encouraged to play sports for a lot of people living with that condition.

And they live, you wouldn't even know that they have CP. But then on the other side, do you do have people where it greatly impacts everything that they do and it does make it very difficult for them to do things that an able-bodied person would be able to do easily? So they found out during this interrogation? Yes. And they don't know where on that scale Levi is. So that is where I leave you with part one of this two audio part podcast.

Stay tuned for part two where we go through the rest of the interviews with Levi and Hunter cart and the moment when one twin finds out. that his twin brother is guilty. With that being said, stay safe, and I'll see you in the next one.