Rotten Mango - #134: The Real Lolita & The Fake FBI (Case of Sally Horner)

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

The FBI agent watched her across the store. He was seasoned enough to know what that little girl was trying to do. He watched her steal a notebook and make a run for the door. Not today. The agent grabbed her arm and stopped her. She was under arrest. “I’m an FBI agent and you just committed a crime, little girl. I need to take you to my boss.” This is how Sally Horner was kidnapped, held hostage, and tortured for 2 years. Book Rec: “The Real Lolita” - by Sara Weinman (without her this case would have been forgotten). Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to this week's main episode of Rotten Mangle, I'm your host Stephanie Sue. And let's talk about the FBI agent. The FBI agent was watching her from across the store. I mean, he was seasoned enough as an agent. He knew exactly what that little girl was trying to do. She wasn't fooling anyone, especially not a man like him. Three, two, one. There she goes. He knew it.

She grabbed the notebook. And without paying for it, this little 11-year-old starts booking it to the front door. Not today. Okay, FBI agents are here to stop this type of thing. They're here to fight crime. FBI agents here to catch a little thief. Yes, this is, this is burglary. It's Grand Theft. It's Grand Theft Auto. Okay. He grabbed her by the arm. Hello little girl. I'm an FBI agent and you have just been caught stealing. You need to come with me right away to the central office where we will be contacting both your parents. They will pick you up. You might even spend

a night in jail. Do you know what you've done? This is so messed up. You can't be doing this. Little 11 year old Sally started to freak out. She knew what she had done was wrong, and her mom had always taught her to make her wrongs right. She follows the FBI agent to the central office. But Sally didn't know that he wasn't an FBI agent, nor was she being taken to the central office. She would in fact be kidnaps for two years taken from CD Motel to

different motel being assaulted by this man who claimed to be an all-knowing powerful government official that could always come back and get her that could have her parents killed if he wanted to. And that is a life that Sally Horner lived for two years. As always full source notes are available at RottenMangoPodcast.com, but there's a really good book on this case. It's called The Real Lolita by Sarah Weinman. Now Sarah is a journalist who scoured through court documents, transcripts, prison records, legislative records, testimonies.

She interviewed dozens of people for this book, and a lot of them were related to the victim. She's honestly such a talented writer and without her I think Sally Horner's name would probably be forgotten. So please go check out her book. She also has a few other true crime books that I've heard her terrific, so let me know. But let's get into the main story. Just a quick side note. If you guys listened to last week's mini, so this is technically the part 2, but I do think that both episodes can stand alone. So, uh, all of it's gonna come together at the end, but let's talk about Sally Horner first. Sally Horner was born Florence Horner, actually, and everything kind of starts with her mom. So her mom's

name is Ella Gough, and she was pregnant with her first child at 19 years old and the father was a man in his late 30s He was married to someone that wasn't Ella, okay? So this is you know back in the day It was shameful to have a child out of wedlock Ella lied and told everybody that Susan was born to her husband and her But her husband died shortly after she gave birth. He just plopped dead so growing up Susan never really knew her biological dad. I mean, I think that she knew his name, but that was about it. I don't know if she too thought that he was dead. Maybe she was just kept in the dark. I don't know. So Ella's raising Susan on her own, and sometimes her parents would help,

but it was a rough life. And that's when she meets a young Russell Horner. This guy's a widow who's well with the son also named Russell, not confusing at all. And the two of them just, they kind of click. You're a single parent, I'm a single parent. Society is shaming me for being a single parent. Like let's, let's head it off. They start dating and their dates, here's the kicker.

They're documented in the local newspaper. So apparently back then, this was customary where the tabloids, but it was like for locals. So they'd be like spotted. It's like gossip girl. Okay. Yeah. So all of their dates were like documented in the newspapers. What would people are following them? Yeah. Like a, like a little journalist. No, just anyone in the community. They're like single bachelor result, which that's a lie because problem again, Russell was married. I know, Ella's just having a rough time. Okay. Thankfully, at least this time, Russell was at least separated from his second wife. He wasn't living with

her, but he never bothered to get a divorce. And back then, I mean, that's just as bad. So they move in together regardless and soon Ella gets pregnant and gives birth to their child Florence Horner. Now for some reason everybody called her Sally. I don't know how you get Sally from Florence. I think both are beautiful names, but the nickname just stuck. Ella is finally getting her cute, happy, fairytale. Right, these two beautiful daughters in this wonderful husband? No, she was miserable. Her and Russell were not happy. Russell had this massive drinking problem.

He was physically abusive to his wife and kids. And then during the day, he would go to work as a crane operator. Which I mean, that in itself is just so dangerous and he was drunk on the job a lot. And then he'd get in trouble, come home, beat his wife and kids, and it was this never-ending cycle. Susan witnessed Russell beating her mom on multiple occasions. Eventually, it got so bad that Ella packed her bags. She scooped up her little girls, and she moved them to New Jersey. She tried to cut off all contact with Russell, but I mean, it's pretty hard.

The relationship had gotten so toxic, and Russell was drinking more and more after they broke up and he was getting depressed and he was blaming Ella and when little Sally was just six years old. Now, this is her biological dad, right? Russell hung himself in his own garage. Now, I don't know if Sally knew this. All I know is that Sally told her teachers at school, my real daddy died when I was six, and I remember what he looks like.

So it's hard to say if she knew how he died or what she remembered about him, did she remember him being abusive? That's, we don't know. So Susan, Sally and Ella, they're all in Camden, New Jersey, which nowadays is kind of associated with violent crime, but back then, apparently it was marvelous. That's how Sally's old friends describe it.

They say in a quote, when you tell people now they're shocked, but back then, there were really nice pep rallies here, social events at the YMCA, honestly, it was kind of like the neighborhoods were filled with happy, proud, ethnically diverse families. It was a safe utopia, which was really good for Sally,

because she spent a lot of her time alone at home, unsupervised. Susan had moved out a long time ago, at 16 years old. She had gotten a factory job. She married a guy named Alan, working on getting her own family together, starting to get pregnant. Ella, all the time, is just working, non-stop as a seamstress. She's trying to make ends meet. She would work late into the night. She wouldn't be home till way after Sally came home from school. And even on the rare occasion that Ella was home

the minute that Sally got home from school, I mean she wasn't walking into like fresh baked food and cookies. Like Ella was so exhausted. She doesn't want to entertain Sally. She doesn't want to play peekaboo. I don't know what eight-year-olds play. It's clear, okay? She doesn't want to play all these little games within eight-year-olds. She wants to catch up on her sleep.

Maybe she needs to do some laundry. That's it. So there was really just not enough mental or emotional connection for little Sally. Sally's teachers would walk her home from school. Since she wasn't being picked up by anyone, and I think that they knew what was going on at home, and Sally would always complain, I just wish mom was home more. I wish Susan my older sister never left, that how I sit so lonely without my sister Susan.

But you know, she got married to this guy named Owl, and he's really nice, but I just wish she was home. So Sally busied herself in all the right ways. She did well in school. She was like a great student. I'm talking on a roll, president of the Junior Red Cross Club. She spent time volunteering at local hospitals, but none of that filled this empty little void inside of her little heart,

where she just wanted genuine, loving, warm, human connection. With anyone at this point, I think that kind of explains what's about to happen next. One day at school, one of the popular girls. That's called a Regina, because she's given off strong, mean girl vibes. She says, Hey Sally, you look alone. You look kind of lonely. You bored. Well, why don't you sit with us at lunch, but only if today after school, you got a Woolworths and you steal something. So to give you context, Woolworth is a shop

near the school that sells school supplies. So I'm talking like candy, notebooks, etc. Like all the kids go there. And Sally, when she's hesitant, she's like, why do you need something from Woolworth that you can't afford? And she's like, no, but you can't be a loser if you're gonna sit with us, or the cool kids. So you need to prove to us that you can be cool. But stealing, I don't know.

Come on, it's so easy. And besides you're an honor roll student, nobody's even gonna suspect besides you're an honor roll student, nobody's even going to suspect that you stole anything. Okay, sure. So Sally is not a rule breaker, especially not a law breaker, but she just really wanted these friends. So she walks in after school into the world where it's, and her palms are sweaty, and all

she could think about was, what if the police catch me stealing? I'm going to go to prison. Are they gonna call my mom? Am I gonna call my mom from prison? What type of conversation would that be? And she walks in there shaking, honestly, probably looking so suspicious at this point. And she sees a little like 10 cent notebook.

You know those little spiral-lined notebooks? And she grabs it. She's like, okay, it'd be natural, right? But she's like briskly walk into the front door. I mean, it's clear what she's doing. She just wanted to get the hell out of there. But she spotted by a man who grabs her arm and he's this middle-aged wearing this big fedora type of dude

and he looked pretty terrifying. He had a scar on the side of his cheek and on his neck and he says, I'm an FBI agent. You're under arrest. What? Oh fork. Her worst nightmare was coming through. I mean, they better at least call her mom, right? I mean, she's going to be so disappointed. After a long 12 hour shift to come home and realize that your daughter is in prison for stealing, what kind of daughter is Sally? Like, that's all she's thinking. And she couldn't hold it in anymore. She literally starts bowling.

The man crouches down and then he looks her in her eye and says, you see that building all the way over there in the distance? Yet, city hall, exactly. That's where we take girls like you to be dealt with. You will be sent to reform school for stealing Maybe prison even And Sally's crying even harder and then all of a sudden he flips a switch Wipes her tear and says

Okay, don't cry listen you got lucky that I caught you if it was one of my other FBI colleagues I mean you would you'd be in a whole lot of trouble. You seem like a nice girl though. So why don't I cut you a deal? You report to me from time to time and I'm gonna let you go. No punishment. So think of it as like probation. I'll find you, you tell me what you've been up to, show me your report card and if everything

goes well, I, nothing, I'm not even gonna call your mom. What do you think? And Sally is so freaking happy. She's like, are you serious? Of course, of course. And she runs out of that place, leaves the notebook. She doesn't even care. She doesn't even care that the popular girls hate her now,

that they think she's a loser that she got caught. She was just so happy to not go to prison. She went to sleep that night so grateful for this amazing sweet FBI agent who's not throwing her in jail, who's saving her mom so much headache, so much heartache. In the next day, she looks around and he's not there. And then again, and then again,

and after this incident, she doesn't see the FBI man for months, and she was honestly really happy. This is the best case situation. Maybe he's gone. Maybe he forgot. Maybe he's like fighting crime. And isn't thinking about this. Maybe there's a serial killer on the loose.

Who cares about me and my notebook? Come on, FBI agents are busy. He's doing other FBI things. But you and I both know that's not how the story goes. So one day in June, Sally's walking home by herself. And it's about a 10-minute walk from school to her house. And at this point in time, Candan, like I said, was a very safe place. But she runs into that FBI agent from Woolworths.

And it was like, oh god, she just wanted to cry again, honestly. She was so shocked. She genuinely had forgotten about him She was just having a regular day and now now here he is trying to take her to reform school probably I imagine their conversation to go something along the lines with this Hey kid. I'm really sorry I talked to my bosses at the FBI and I told them you're such a good kid. You have no record You know the school you get good grades But the government wants you in Atlantic City at the headquarters HQ

What? Headquarters what what about my mom? She can't know that I'm in trouble She already have so much on her plate right now. She's so stressed We can't even pay our phone bills. I just don't want her to worry about anything more. You said that it was gonna be okay I know but my boss is they're really, they're trying to crack down on stuff like this. We're trying to crack down on notebook theft. It's a big department. It's like bigger than the homicide unit, you know, the notebook unit. But you're right. Why don't we do this? We don't want to stress out your mom. Why don't you go home and you tell your mom that two of your friends from school

invited you to Jersey Shore for vacation. I'll pretend to be the friend's dad and call your mom to explain the rest. What do you think of that? Don't worry, I'm not gonna mention anything about breaking the law or that I'm an FBI agent, none of that. Sally's like, really? So I just tell my mom that my friends asked me to go on vacation

and you're going to pretend to be the dad. Oh my god, that's actually so smart. She's like, thank you, thank you. So she rushes home and she waits for her mom to get back from work and she's anxiously ready to tell her this plan. And she's like, her mom is confused. Ella's like, Jersey sure. For the whole week? I don't know. I've never even heard you mention these girls before, what were their names again? Since when were you even friends with them?

And then the phone rings. Hi, is this Mrs. Warner? It's Frank Warner. I'm the parents of Mia and Terry. I'm sure Sally told you about our Atlantic City trip. My wife and I own a five room apartment by the seaside and we have plenty of room for Sally. The girls would love for her to come.

Now Alice in Stinking Gut were feeling weird about this. Like something about this frank guy is rubbing her the wrong way. She's not vibing with it. She doesn't know what it is, but something strange. But she just didn't have a good reason to say no. And she also felt like it was a chance for Sally to get a little vacation. Ella knew that she could not afford one any time soon.

No where near in the near future. So she agreed. But when she hung up, she looked at Sally and she was so confused. Hey, she just said yes. Why aren't you excited? I said yes, Sally. And she goes, oh, okay, thanks. Yeah, that's weird.

Yeah. That should be a huge sign, right? Yeah, so she's like, okay, thanks. On June 14th, Ella takes Sally to the Camden bus stop. She kisses her daughter goodbye and watches her get on that express bus to Atlantic City by herself. So again, this is like kind of back in the day

where parents were a lot more, there were not as many creepy people on the streets or maybe we just don't know about it, is probably what's going on, right? Yeah. So she just kind of center on the bus, and Ella could see that Sally sat down next to this middle-aged man on the bus.

And she's thinking, is that Frank? Why wouldn't he get off to greet me? It's not like, I would imagine it's maybe more like a greyhound bus. So it's not just like, oh, I'm stopping for two seconds, like no one can get off and get back on. I mean, it's like a one-way trip. Where's his wife and kids?

I don't see them sitting near there. Maybe that's not him. Maybe that's the only empty seat and she sat down and maybe they're already at Atlantic City and they're waiting for her at the bus stop now. Maybe that's what's going on. But it was making her feel a little bit uneasy but she kept ignoring it.

And more than anything, Ella just wanted Sally to have some fun for once. Just experience something nice. So week after Sally was on the bus, Ella gets a letter from Sally. She's having the time of her life. And absolute blush, she's like, Mom, you won't even understand Atlantic City.

Like this is literally heaven. You don't get it. One day we need to come here together. We need to bring Susan. We need to bring the whole squad. It's amazing Sally would even call to let her know. Oh my god mom. Don't worry. Everything is okay. I'm having so much fun Mom speaking of fun Can I please stay next week?

Because we really want to see like these shows in Atlantic City and they're not scheduled for this week They're scheduled for next week and they said it was okay Her parents that it was okay. Please And so Ella agrees For three weeks one week turned into two and then two three Sally's letters and calls convinced Ella that she was safe and sound and living the dream living her best life Ella had no idea that Sally was living a nightmare. She didn't know until it was too late.

About three weeks into the trip, the calls and the letters they just come to an abrupt stop. I'm talking radio silence. If Ella wrote back to Sally, it all came back with return to Sunderstamps on it, and she was starting to freak out. And then at the end of the month, Sally sends one last letter, and it says, hey mom, I'm leaving Atlantic City and I'm going to Baltimore with Mr. Warner. I will be home to Camden by the end of the week, don't worry about me. But I decided I don't want to write anymore. Okay, what does that even mean?

I mean, now it sounds like something really weird is happening, and on top of this strange letter, Susan, Sally's older sister was giving birth in a few days, and Sally's whole thing in life had been wanting to be an aunt. She was so excited for this moment. She had been talking about, oh, what should we do for our next niece? Like, what should we do? What should we name her? She was so stoked!

That was the only thing Sally could talk about for the past nine months. How much she wanted a big family. So there's no way that she would miss us for anything. Ella immediately picks up the phone. She calls the police, and the police went to the address on Sally's mail, and it was a local lodging house.

They asked the owner, hey, have you seen this little girl staying here? Maybe it's multiple girls. We don't know. Maybe it's parents. Oh no, there weren't a lot of girls. It was just a guy named Frank and his daughter Sally. Oh. No, he didn't have a wife. He didn't have any other daughters. It was just dad Frank and daughter Sally. I guess he was in a hurry though, because when he left, he forgot to bring two of his suitcases with him.

Yeah, it's in the room. Do you want me to open it for you? So, in the room, the police find. The two bags. Postcards Sally had written her mom that were never sent. Frank also left all of Sally's clothes that he bought her and even left his beloved hat. There was also a picture of Sally and Ella together that were just left behind. It was one of the few pictures Sally had and so they spread this across the nation hoping someone would recognize her. They asked the owner, do you know where the Frank guy worked? Because he was working, right? He stayed here a while. He stayed about three weeks.

I think he worked at a local gas station. But by the time the police get there, I mean, he had already quit. He quit in such a hurry that he didn't even pick up his last check. Everyone at the gas station said, it's like he vanished. But he had a cute little daughter named Sally. Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs, whatever was in there. Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this? No. Who's gonna catch us?

What a police. It was the height of the crack era, and instead of locking up drug dealers, some New York City cops had become them. I would suit up in my uniform and we're going to want some drug dealers, and I know how to do it really well. This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all. Did you consider yourself a rat?

100% I save my soul just like everybody else does. Listen to and follow the set, an Odyssey originals documentary podcast series available now in the Odyssey app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. Now the police were worried because I mean well for one they knew that Sally was not his kid, but second of all They knew this Frank guy. His name was not Frank Warner, but according to the description that everybody was giving His name was Frank LaSalle. Now, six months before Sally was kidnapped, he had just been released from prison. He served a sentence for statutory rape of five, five different girls. Oh my God. Between the ages of 12 and 14.

Remember what's between the ages of 12 and 14, according to Humbert Humbert, a nymphet. So who the hell is Frank Lissel, right? What can a guy is this? We don't know much about his early life, because there's not a ton of records on it. Oh, and Frank is a compulsive liar. So his story changes every two seconds,

and unlike Humbert in Lolita, Frank is not well spoken nor well educated Anytime he writes anything. It's littered with grammatical errors and a lot of the things he passionately talks about Well the very next day he's most likely gonna just contradict himself like he was one of those guys On top of that he changed his last name a lot. He said it was Patterson. I'm Frank Johnson. Call me Frank Laplante. Oh, I'm Frank O'Keefe. But it was always Frank. One of his favorite aliases to use was Frank Fogg, which is just so weird. I don't know. I guess it's appropriate because most of his life is quite foggy, but he was just Frank Fogg. We do know that he was briefly married

and that he had a son, and he claimed that his wife took the child and left him. And soon after, he meets a woman by the name of Dorothy Dare at a carnival. Now, Dorothy is about to turn 18 years old. She was born in Philadelphia. She lived with her parents. She literally just graduated high school, but neither of them cared about the huge age gap. And it was huge.

He was 43. She had just turned 18. And after a few days of knowing each other, yeah, a few days, Frank was like, hey, you wanna get married or something? Like really romantic. And she said, you know what? Sure, let's do it.

And the two of them eloped. Now Dorothy's dad was understandably furious when he found this out. He's like, what the hell is wrong with you? Were you crazy? This man is twice your age and you've known him for what? A week? And I even investigated him. I asked a friend who asked a friend and they knew this frank guy.

And this guy's already married to somebody else. He used a fake name to marry you Dorothy, but even that, you know, David calls the cops on him, says that this guy is marrying people while he's already married, which is a crime back then. He also states that his daughter was only 15 years old, which is a lie, so Frank gets arrested for kidnapping and statutory rape. He was ultimately arrested for inciting a minor. But I mean, his whole argument was, Dorothy's not a minor, she's 18 years old, and she's legally married.

I have the papers right here. The police were confused, but you're still married to your ex-wife, so regardless, this is a crime. And Dorothy was screaming the whole time, no, he told me the truth, he couldn't have been married before there's no way. And if he was, I would want to die. Like, she was desperate about this guy. I don't know what it is about Frank. Honestly, he's not the most attractive man. I would say that he's probably super manipulative. So the judge dismisses Frank's charges. But he was found guilty of another charge, a hit and run. And he was ordered to pay $50 for that hit and run $250 for giving false information and to spend 15 days in jail which doesn't sound like a hefty period but he refused to pay the fines and they upped it to another 30 days in

jail so that's just the type of guy that he is. Dorothy patiently waited for him to get out she couldn't wait to start over with the man of her dreams and the two of them, hand and hand, they moved to Atlantic City, they had a daughter, but it wasn't sunshine and rainbows, like she thought it would be. He was constantly cheating. When their child was only three years old, Dorothy found Frank in the car with another woman, and she was pissed, okay? She starts bonking this woman on the head with her shoe, and she left Frank, sued him for desertion and non-payment of child support. So it's all like, you know, funny, he-he-ha, right?

Not really, but you get the idea. She found out that he was cheating. Until you find out that the other woman, well, it was a girl. She was 12 years old. Oh my. Yeah. So turns out, Franky was grooming multiple girls, typically around 12 to 15 years old. Oh my. Yeah. So, turns out Frankie was grooming multiple girls, typically around 12 to 15 years old, the entire

time that he was married to Dorothy. The police even found out what he was doing. Some officers were going out to eat during their shift and it was around 3 in the morning, and they see this very young girl just sitting alone at the restaurant, like at a booth. Hey, what are you doing alone at such an hour? Like, why are you out? You look really young, How old are you? And she immediately confessed everything. She was like, oh shoot, I'm here to meet this 40-year-old man.

I mean, it's supposed to be a date. His name is Frank Lissal and he works at an auto body shop. They're like, what? A 40-year-old? You're under-aid. What kind of date is that? And she's like, well, I've already met him before and he forced me into doing really intimate things with him. And then he blackmailed me. He said that if I don't bring a bunch of friends and introduce them to him so that he could do the same thing to them, he's going to tell my parents what we did. So the police find out that these girls, Loretta, Margaret, Sarah, Irma, and Virginia were all assaulted by Frank in this like two month period.

The oldest was 15 years old and the youngest two were 12 years old. All four of the girls, they talked to the police, and they talked about how they were assaulted by Frank. I mean, it's despicable. The police put out a warrant for Frank's arrest, but they couldn't even find the guy. He wasn't at work, he wasn't at home, he obviously wasn't with Dorothy,

like he was nowhere to be found. So they start constantly surveilling the place that he's supposed to live at, his residence, and they see a car, registered to Frank, pull up into the driveway. Let's get him! They ascend onto the house, they search the place up and down, and all they find is a 19 year old guy who claims to be Frank's brother-in-law. But what he forgot to mention to the police was that Frank just ran out the back door and

narrowly escaped arrest. It would take a good half year to track down Frank. He later pleaded no contest to the red charges and he was given like two and a half years on each rape charge. So that's about 12 years. He gets sent to Trenton State Prison and he's seen smiling on his mug shot just so creepy. Now that 12 and a half years sentence should teach him a lesson. But tell me why this serial race was released after 14 months in prison. 14 months. He gets

sent back to prison on bad checks and obtaining money under false pretenses. And this guy's out again. And now he's got not a single penny to his name. He heads over to the YMCA, which is across the street from Woolworths in Camden, New Jersey, where he would bump into ten-year-old Sally Horner, trying to steal a ten-cent notebook. And now the police are looking for him. Early on when Sally is missing, I mean, they knew that it was Frank. They knew that this was Frank LaSalle. That's what the description is. This has got to be the guy. He definitely has no daughter named Sally, and Sally Horner is missing. There was even a sighting, so a young couple by the name of Robert and Jean. They were headed on like a day trip to Bridgintine Beach, right? I think that's what it's called. So they didn't

really have a lot of money and this was kind of like their makeshift honeymoon the entire family. So Robert and Jean, they're newlyweds and all of Robert's family, they're going to head over to the beach during the day. It's a small little town near Atlantic City, and this is the most extravagant vacation that they could afford. So in the car, we have Jean, Robert, Robert's mom, Robert's older sister, and nine-year-old little sister. So a lot of people, they were packed in there like sardines.

Somewhere along the highway, the car tires just blow out. Robert pulls over to the side of the road. Thankfully, nobody was hurt, but I mean, there was no fixing this. There was no throwing on a spare tire. No, like, this car's not gonna be driving anytime soon. So they're super stressed. I mean, they're all strapped for cash.

They're thinking about how many meals do we have to skip to pay for this damage? And our one vacation is now lost and a station wagon pulls up. A middle-aged man gets out and introduces his daughter. Hey, I'm Frank, this is my daughter Sally. I'm guessing you guys need some help. Robert and Jean get into his car

and the young people are in the back, the young couple are in the back. Sally's in the front. There was obviously no room for Robert's other families to get in the car. So the whole plan was that he was going to take Robert and Jean to get some tools, come back, fix up the car. Besides, they were under the impression that they're going to be right back. So Frank drives them to a roadside phone. Robert calls

his dad and he's like, hey, can you just come pick us all up? Jean and I are going to stay behind, figure out what to do with the car, but mom and the two sisters, they're just waiting by this car on the side of the highway. So can you come? Robert gets back into the wagon, Frank starts driving them to a burger shop and they get a table and a waitress, even new Frank and Sally as Frank and daughter Sally, address them by name. So they must be regulars.

Frank over burgers tells Robert, listen, you and your wife seem like really nice people. I mean, this is like you said it was a honeymoon sort of vacation. Why don't I drive you and the whole family down to Bridgerton Beach, so your trip's not ruined and I'll take care of your car. They're like, what? Really? You would do that? Oh my god, thank you.

So the whole family is like, yes! Like, that's too it. Mom, sisters, Frank, Sally, Robert, Jean, all of them. They pack into Frank's car and they head over to the beach. And of course, Sally immediately hits it off with nine-year-old Barbara. They played in the sand, they went swimming. Frank was telling the rest of the family about their lives. Frank is a divorcee.

He ran a gas station in Atlantic City and Sally lived with him during the summer. And with her mom during those school years. I mean, there was no red flags. Sally called him daddy, treated him like a daughter would treat a her mom during those school years. I mean, there was no red flags. Sally called him daddy. Treated him like a daughter would treat a father. She was affectionate. She was nice. They seemed to have a really healthy relationship. And then later that day, she said, Dad, can you drive me and Barbara back to our house to wash up?

We have sand everywhere, and we don't, we feel icky. Oh my gosh. It was just about 10 minutes away, and Robert's family agreed. But 10 minutes became an hour hour and that became two hours. And Robert's family started to get very worried. I mean, what could possibly be taking them so long? At this point, Robert's dad even showed up to the beach and he was so pissed. He was like, why the hell did you let Barbara go with strangers?

Even if they seem nice, what the hell is wrong with you? But before they call the cops, Frank drove up with the kids and took them to their wrecked car. So I don't know what happened during this two hours. I couldn't find any sources that alleged abuse or if there was a different plan and then Frank decided too many people saw them.

Maybe he shouldn't have taken them to the restaurant, but I definitely think something shady was going down. Yeah. Maybe Frank was trying to kidnap Barbara, but decided against it last minute. Yeah, because we know he's not a nice guy by any means. Yeah, he's not just driving them to wash up. Maybe he's watching them wash up. You know, like this is a really disgusting guy. So I'm not really sure. I don't know if Barbara ever reported any sort of abuse even to our family members.

So I don't want to speculate. But I can't imagine it was just an innocent trip for Frank So he ends up fixing their car and afterwards Sally invites Barbara to come stay with her for the weekend and her parents immediately I'm like, I sure maybe next weekend and thankfully they never reached out They never wanted Barbara to go with Frank. I mean that two hours of panic was enough for them But that was a sighting early on. Meanwhile, back at home, Ella's not doing well. She's so upset with herself for letting her daughter go off with a predator and she was just blaming herself non-stop. She was supposed to keep Sally safe. She just wanted her to have a good time on vacation and now she's got to work overtime just to keep her telephone line on

and not let the bills default because Sally needed a phone to call, Sally needed a place to come home to. A lot of people said, you know, Ella, I don't think she's ever gonna call. But she needed to be able to pick up if she did. She also developed insomnia during the late hours of the night. She found herself in Sally's room just holding her toys and games and clothes. Ella constantly rewashed all of Sally's clothes because she said when she comes home she wants them to be fresh and ready for her. As more time passed I think Ella wanted her daughter to be dead. Because as time passes she's like whatever is out there for Sally has got to be worse than death.

And then Sally's 12th birthday passed, and she's still missing. The police left her case open, but I mean the tips and trails, like they're just all fading, they're dying off. There was no solid lead to Sally, or even her body. The price moved on too. There were other headlines to cover. New stories that they needed to talk about. The wife of a Philadelphia magistrate went missing.

I mean, that's gonna get more views, right? But Sally wasn't dead. She was alive. And every waking second of her life with Frank was complete torture. I mean, we know some things, but we don't know all the things. So the rest we can only assume.

So we know that right before Frank and Sally left Atlantic City, Frank somehow found out the police were coming for him. So they rushed to pack their things, but they left most of their belongings at the lodge. We don't know what they talked about or how Frank threatened her, but we can assume it was a lot of threatening. To anybody that asked, Sally confidently said, Frank is my dad, and told them her parents are divorced, and Frank my dad has custody, and he probably told her, do this, and nothing

bad will happen to you. Or your family, because remember, I'm an an FBI agent and I could go kill your mom. I could go kill your brand new niece. So the two of them, they flee Atlantic City and they head to Baltimore. And Sally said that this is where Frank really started to assault her regularly, almost every single day. He had her so manipulated and terrified that he even took the risk of having her go to school. He thought it'd be weird if his daughter never left the house or didn't have a normal life, the neighbors would start investigating.

They'd start getting suspicious. So Sally started going to St. Anne's Catholic school and she went by the name Madeline Leplante. Up until this point, Sally had no idea that he was a mechanic. She genuinely thought that her dad was an FBI agent. At school, Sally, or I guess Madeline, rather, had no idea that he was a mechanic. She genuinely thought that her dad was an FBI agent. At school, Sally, or I guess Madeline, she was a super quiet kid, but she never really had many close friends, and she just always kept to herself. Sally knew that if she had

friends, Frank would just assault them too. So, I mean, this girl is really above her years, like she's so smart and she's so compassionate. And now, it's not clear why Frank chose a Catholic school. A lot of sources say that nobody remembers him practicing religion in any way. Maybe it was just kind of convenient. Or some suspect sinisterly that the Catholic schools ask a lot of less questions. Maybe it's believed that because the church

could potentially be a breeding ground for abuse sometimes, maybe Frank thought his secret would be safer in an institution that is somewhat notorious for pedophilia We don't know that's what some sources suspect because it was just bizarre that he specifically kept choosing Catholic schools along the way Even when they moved across the country. It was always a Catholic school So after school Sally was subjected to sexual abuse non-stop and during these rips he would yell at her Nobody cares about you but me. So she was kind of brainwashed into thinking like,

it's useless to ask for help. No one's gonna help me. In fact, they'll just make it worse. And I think a part of her may be started believing that he genuinely was trying to be a father figure because she's never had a father in her life. So she didn't really know that this isn't what dads do. So all the while, Sally is finally adjusting to school

and becoming Madeline. And Frank told her, we have to pack our bags. FBI put me on a new case, and we need to move to the Southwest to investigate. All the newest, latest happenings. In reality, the DA in Camden County indicted Frank on the charge of kidnapping of Sally Horner, and he was facing 30 to 35 years if he was caught and convicted.

So Frank, I mean, he's middle aged. That is pretty much a life sentence at that point. He wanted to make sure that they never found him. He was going to put as much distance between himself and the investigation. So they pack up and they head all the way to Dallas, Texas. And Sally was no longer madeline, but she was Florence, planet. He also changed the story to say that he was widowed like his wife was viciously killed, not divorced. Now, a lot of people in the neighborhood in Dallas, Texas, they knew

Frank. He moved in. It was a trailer park. Everybody knew each other. And they thought he was a bit of a loof, just kind of cold, standoffish. Nobody really remember it. Sally. So Frank gets another job as a mechanic and Sally gets sent to another Catholic school. And even with the trauma of everything going on in her life, she was forced to maintain good grades.

Because that would show that Frank is a splendid dud. So she had mainly A's, and none of her neighbors, none of her teachers, nobody noticed anything wrong with Florence. She seemed like a normal 12 year old girl, with a relatively strict dad. He never let her out of his sight. But it seemed normal. I mean, his wife died. Her mom died. How do you process that type of trauma? He's a single parent.

Sure, he's a helicopter parent, just constantly hovering over Sally, but it kind of makes sense. Sally, otherwise, seemed normal. She would bake at home. She had this dog that she loved. She had an allowance for clothes and sweets, which honestly was a lot better than a lot of the kids in that neighborhood. She would go to her neighbor's houses,

go swimming at the community pool with her friends. One of the neighbors literally said, there were several times that we noticed the need for the love and care of a mother, but we both felt like the dad, he was doing a good job. He was providing better living conditions for her and we thought it was enough. Some neighbors were so shocked. They said, I was alone with Sally many times. I felt like she could have confided in me and she should have known that. Sally was in my house many times a day and had access to several phones. She could have just used one. She had plenty

of time to talk to me about being kidnapped if she wanted to. And I'm sure she knew me well enough to know that if she had sent anything like that, I would have helped her. Again, these neighbors are so annoying because it just sounds like you're trying to make it seem like, oh, I did everything I could. And she trusted me and she knew it. And I'm such a trustworthy person. And I'm sure that they would have helped if they knew but There's probably a million reasons why this kind of sounds like a really indirect victim blaming type situation So at this point like I said she still believed him to be an FBI agent and he had told her the FBI wants you to be with me So that I can teach you the consequences of stealing and I can raise you to be a law-abiding citizen

so that I can teach you the consequences of stealing and I can raise you to be a law-abiding citizen. So it just kind of made sense in her head. But soon after, Sally had an appendicitis attack and needed an operation. She spent three days at the hospital, none of the nurses, none of the doctors picked up any red flags between her and Frank. Truly nobody. She spent three days in the hospital and another week recovering at home. And that's just kind of when her whole behavior changed. She went from being healthy, lighthearted, and to walking like an old woman. Most of her neighbors paid no mind to they just didn't care that she was distraught. She seemed lethargic.

They didn't care about any of this except for a woman by the name of Ruth Janish. Now Ruth never had an easy life growing up, okay? Side note, her mom was verbally abusive. She grew up hearing that she was worthless practically every single day of her life. Ruth had been married many times before, each husband treating her worse than the last. Her third husband, George, his specialty was cheating on her. That was his go-to. He always picked married woman asleep with, and if Ruth found out and she started flipping

out like why are you cheating on me he would say, well I left you the high-spin you can sleep with the high-spin. Wow. I mean it was just really aggressive. Obviously it put a ton of strain in their relationship. Ruth was also just popping out another baby practically every single year, almost every year that they were married they had a kid and she was constantly or in labor, and that just added to the stress of everything. And in spite of each other, the couple started to take out their vengeance for each other on their kids' birth certificates.

I've never heard anything like this before. They gave their kids the same middle names as their former lovers, the ones that they cheated on each other with. Yes. So you think that they're going to be good to these kids? Probably not. And financially, they weren't doing great. Ruth was a stay-at-home mom and George worked these odd jobs here and there. They barely had enough money to make ends meet.

And to every new mouth to feed every year, I mean, it's only going to make it worse. Eventually, the two of them take their kids, they move to Texas, which at this point, they have a lot of kids. And she practically neglected all of them, which by the way she'll have 11, total later on. It was her quest for life companions, really. She had 10 marriages in her whole life. But back to Texas, she was overwhelmed, stressed, her kids would act out, she would yell at them the same way that her mom did,

so she was just cycling. This verbal abuse cycle was going from generation to generation. But all the while, she was still with George and Dallas. And they moved into this tiny little trailer with her big family and right next door is Franken Sally. Now, since Ruth's daughters were about 5, 6, and 7 at the time, they were immediately interested in Sally. They wanted her to be like their big sister. They wanted them to all hang out.

Meanwhile Ruth was kind of into Frank. She at this point was freely cheating on George too. She's like, you know what, if you're going to cheat on me, I'm going to cheat on you. And thought that Frank was polite. You know, he's pretty handsome. He's a single dad. He's so good to his kid. So initially Ruth starts paying the two a lot more attention because she was attracted

to Frank. But slowly, as time passed, she realized something wasn't right. The closeness between Frank and Sally, it just seemed wrong. It just didn't seem natural. Things got worse after Sally came back from the hospital. Frank got more possessive, refused to let her out of his sight. She never had friends her own age. She never went anywhere without Frank. Just always stayed with him in that little trailer of his.

Ruth tried to talk to Sally about it, but Sally just never opened up. Then a little while later, Ruth and George, they packed it up and moved to California. So for some strange reason, whether it was to be close to Frank or to be close to Sally Ruth writes Frank a letter Hey, we moved to California. You should join us. There's so much more work over here, and we could be neighbors again So Frank oddly agreed. He was like yeah, let's move to California So he pulls Sally out of school moves that me even further from Camden now This was the move that made Sally a lot more alert. She had been with Frank for about 21 months now, almost two years, and she was starting to figure him out.

She felt like he wasn't part of the FBI, that he didn't have eyes everywhere. He was just a creep. In California, she ended up telling a friend in school that her dad was having sex with her, and her friend told her, and it's so calmly, by the way, that's just wrong. You ought to stop that right now. So I don't know, maybe that's what made Sally realize that this wasn't normal. Maybe Frank for the past two years now had tried to tell her that this is how it's supposed to be with a father and a daughter, because mind you, Sally never had a father figure.

Maybe he really did convince her this was normal. So whatever the case was, something just kind of clicked for Sally. She kept refusing Frank's advances. She still acted like he was her dad. I mean, it gave her the sense of power though. He also stopped punishing her for saying no because he did in the beginning, but now he couldn't, and a lot of it I think might have to do with the fact that Sally was turning 13. Maybe that was just a little bit too old for Frank. She was one of those girls that was developed at an earlier age and Frank the peteta, he didn't like that.

He really did not. So all of this is kind of reminding me of Lolita about how he never punished her later on when she said no to his sexual advances, so he started giving her allowance to try to win her in that way. Then he also said it's because he loved her, but in reality, I mean, she was probably just getting a little bit too old. Anyways, in California, Sally was enrolled in school, but she decided to skip one day without Frank knowing,

because Ruth had invited her over, and Ruth did this so that she could question her. It had been bothering her since they moved from Dallas, Texas to California, she just wanted to know. So she sit Sally down in for hours, she's grilling her, and finally, Sally feels comfortable enough to admit. So Frank is not my father.

He's holding me hostage for two years. My mom's name is Ella, and I have an older sister named Susan, and I just want to go home. Ruth was shocked. Ruth was expecting an incestuous relationship. She was not suspecting any of this. She picked up her phone, handed it to Sally, and had her call her family. Sally's mom's line was ultimately disconnected because she was losing jobs due to her grief,

but she called Susan's husband at work. Hello, Al. This is Sally. Can I speak to Susan? Oh my God. Al said he couldn't even contain his excitement. He had seen his wife suffer for two years. And he said, Where are you?

Give me your exact location. I'm with a lady friend in California. Can you please send the FBI here please? And tell mom I'm okay. Don't worry, I just want to go home. I've been so scared to even call. Don't worry, Sal. I'll call the FBI.

You stay right where you are. Susan jumped on the line and she was screaming Sally. Sally, don't worry. Help is on the way, just stay put. And she asked, how's Diana? And that's Susan's daughter who was 19 months old at this point. And she said, she looks just like you. And both of them started crying on the phone.

Sally hung up, looked at Ruth and her face was stark white and she said, oh God, what is he going to do when he finds out what I've done? And the FBI burst in, they rescue Sally, they wait to arrest Frank when he comes home, and Sally told them the whole story. How Frank kept telling her that if she went back home or if she ran away, she would be sent to prison. The government ordered him to keep her and take care of her

and to make sure she turns into a law-biting citizen. And at first, Sally denied being sexually abused, I think she felt ashamed, but after a doctor's exam, I mean it was pretty evident. So she confessed to the truth, and she said, Frank was mean, he always scolded me, but the rest of the time outside of the ramps, he did treat me like a father. He also kept a gun around. Again, Lolita. She broke down and finally said, I just want to go home.

Meanwhile, Frank returned home to his trailer and there were just dozens of police FBI surrounding him. He surrendered quietly. In jail, he denied kidnapping Sally. Straight up, he said, I'm her father. The mother Ella knew where she was since she quote vanished. Yet Ella and I had a romantic relationship. We had sex and we conceived Sally. I'm her biological father. They're like, what? You're such a bad liar. That doesn't it.

What could I even buy a side? And he's like, well, I took her in when she was this little tiny thing. And I'm the father of six kids. Three, by this wife, Mrs. Horner. So he's alleging that he was married to Ella. Can you imagine the trauma that Ella is feeling, like this random stranger, not only kidnapped your child, did unspeakable things to her for two years, and now is alleging that you guys were married?

What? And he said that he had three kids with another wife. I didn't take Sally from Camden, but New York is four years ago. Ella gave me her New York, not two years ago. I mean, she kept the house from me. I gave her money and freedom better than what Ella was given her. The police could have found me at any time.

I wasn't breaking any laws. That's my kid. As soon as he spilled his lies, he stopped talking, and he refused to say another word. He said, that's my story, and that's what I'm sticking by. Goodbye. He was charged with taking a girl across state lines for immoral purposes as well as kidnapping. What about this sexual assault? Yeah, exactly. So Sally was terrified to the point that she couldn't even eat. She was terrified that Frank would

be out on jail or out on bail. Then she was terrified that her family wouldn't want her once they realized that she was assaulted. And she had to fly back to Camden with the prosecutor and she was greeted at the report by Ella Susan L and their baby Diana. She ran out of that gate, booked it to her mom and they started crying and hugging and Sally was screaming, I just want to go home, I just want to go home. And she reached out for Diana and hugged her so tightly. And the worst part of all of this is that Sally couldn't go home just yet.

In fact, she wasn't allowed to go home till the trial was over. Why? Because they didn't know who to believe or how it was gonna work out. So she was forced to stay at a children's shelter. Thankfully, she got along with the matron and the kids, but it was rough to be without her family.

Meanwhile, Frank kept pushing that he was Sally's dad. Even at the end when the investigators were taking Sally, he said, take good care of my daughter, okay? What? Okay. So this guy seems like he's going to put up a fight, but out of nowhere, he said he wants to plead guilty. He wanted to confess to everything.

He said, I just want to get it off my chest. My time to commence and to run is over. So he pleads guilty. And he was ordered to spend no less than 30 years in prison, but no more than 35 years for the kidnapping charge. He would have to spend at least 27 years in prison before parole. Sally was finally able to return home, but this time she was two weeks away from being 13. And she looked and acted more mature. I think she was just forced to grow up in like one of the cruelest ways possible. She was just trying to live her best life.

She started, you know, getting back at school. She really was a smart girl with big dreams. She wanted to be a doctor when she grew up and she spent her time with her niece and she looked happy, but randomly her family said that she would just snap into this very melancholic mood. Not sad or depressed, but just like you knew something was wrong. And at the time there was no counseling for victims of abuse. So she was never given

the option of seeing a therapist, she never had one. And with all of this, she graduated middle school with all A's and with honors. Can you believe it? Like after all of this happened. She did have trouble making friends so everybody always gossiped about her. They didn't sit with her and she was um shamed for being a victim. A classmate said everybody looked at Sally as if she was a total whore. Wow. Another student said that no matter how you look at it she was a slut. That was just the way it was back in those days. By the time that Sally was 15, she just had one friend named Carol. And Carol was a badass. So along with Sally, Carol was like, who cares?

What people are saying? We're just gonna have fun. You and me, you don't need anybody else. They loved going to the beach together. And before high school started, they wanted one last fun trip. So they had their fake IDs. They caught a bus to the beach. They spent the day tanning, then they went to the clubs at night and

Sally really didn't drink. She just had a blast with her best run carol, right? And there she met a guy named Edward John Baker, otherwise known as Eddie. He was this good looking 20-year-old from Jersey. He was tall, he had this dark hair, he looked like a movie star, and she lied to him and said that she was 17 and honestly, I think anyone would have believed her. She was really taken by him. She just wanted to be in a relationship and it was impossible. Back home, everybody knew she had been kidnapped and they thought of her as a slut for it, but Eddie didn't know any of that. So they hung out all weekend together. And then she asked Carol for a huge favor.

Carol, do you mind catching the bus pack to Camden alone? No. Eddie said that I could ride back to Vineland with him for the day, and I'll catch a bus home from there. Carol's like, sure, I guess I don't mind. I mean, he does seem nice. So Sally hugged Carol, and she was just so excited. She wanted to spend some extra time with Eddie.

And around 11 p.m., they started to drive to Eddie's place. It was dark outside. Eddie was going faster than he should have, and just 17 miles away from his house. There was an accident. And the police were so shocked when they were called out. Four cars had crashed into each other, and Eddie's car was crushed in the back of a parked car, which then crashed into another parked car. And thankfully the two truck drivers of those parked trucks were away from the cars when the impact happened, but Eddie ended up with a broken left knee, a gash on his right arm but he survived. The crash killed Sally Horner instantly.

No. It took hours for rescue teams to free her from the wreck. She had been completely crushed by the truck's tailgate. She had a fractured skull, a broken neck, and a broken right leg. Her chest was crushed and she had severe internal injuries. The damage was so severe, the police called an owl to identify Sally. They didn't think that Ella or Susan could handle it. And as one last fuck you to the family, Frank sent flowers to the whorner home the morning

of the funeral. Eddie was later arrested for reckless homicide. He was released on bail, but the biggest problem was that this wasn't his first car crash. A year ago, he was driving his mom's car and he ran a red light, and it caused this huge accident. Nobody died in that one thing, but I mean, it's just, I think he was recklessly driving, if I'm being honest. Eddie was later found guilty on all counts, and there was no reason for his acquittal,

which is shady, and Ella sued Eddie for $50,000. It's unclear if she got any money out of this settlement, but hopefully she did. And Eddie went on to live his best life, get married, and had a son named Edward Jr. And in some sick twist of fate, Edward Jr. died in a car accident, and he died on the spot like Sally Horner. Now, back to Frank, because yeah, there's more. He changed his mind and he tried to appeal pleading guilty. He claimed that he saved Sally from her mom, who was an evil person apparently, who was always out with some man or lounging around at home in bed, but you know, what the heck? It didn't work. Ruth,

on the other hand, felt like the hero title belonged to her. She kept all the newspaper clippings and letters from Frank from jail. Yeah, he wrote her in a scrapbook. She would show her kids. Sure, I abused you, but I was capable of doing something good. Look at this. And one day Ruth told Rachel about the book Lolita. Rachel is Ruth's daughter. So she was like, Rachel, look at this book Lolita. Doesn't it sound like Sally Horner's story? It even names Sally Horner in the back. The girl that I saved. And Rachel finally has an adult.

Looked at her and said, Mom, there's something I need to tell you. Frank didn't only molest Sally, he also molested me. No way. While Sally was at school, he invited me over and I was only five years old He was nice, and I was jealous that Sally had such a great dad actually He always he always bought her toys candy. He paid attention to her. I mean while George dad was always busy with other women. So I went and He told me that I could have any toy of Sally's, but first I had to give him a blowjob.

And so I did. And then she doesn't remember if I kept going or not because she just, she couldn't talk about it anymore. And she couldn't talk about it anymore not because Rachel's traumatized, but because Ruth completely shut down. She was incapable of comforting her own kid. She couldn't even connect to Rachel emotionally, not even now. So they just never talked about it ever again. And Rachel never really got the help that she needed from her mom. Frank made it only 16 years into a sentence before dying. And the parallels between the two books are insane. So mind you, Lolita was, the manuscript for that book was burned almost twice and Vladimir's wife is the one that stopped him

He wanted to throw it in the fire because he had writers blocking. He's like listen Humbert Humbert's a pedophile, but I don't know what's next and his wife his Proof editor his secretary his manager his everything literally the backbone of his whole career was Preventing him and she was like like no you just need to think harder. Now Vladimir was a true crime fan so he was all over the newspapers always reading about true crime cases and during that time period while he was writing the manuscript for Lolita Sally Horner's case was massive. So we can only imagine that he took inspiration from her case heavily because I mean everything about it even even the age, even the car accident, so salience of dying in a car accident, Charlotte

dies in a car accident. I mean it's just bizarre, the moving from motel to motel, even the way that Frank and Humbert both try to justify their assaults by saying, well, I don't force her anymore because I love her. The way that both of them are sent to school, while they're being assaulted, like they're manipulated to that level and that degree, the fact that Frank tries to say that Sally is his own daughter,

whereas Lolita in the book, I mean, that's literally his daughter. Well, he's the sole custody, you know, person of Lolita. I mean, there's just so many parallels. Humbert even threatened to Laura's in the book that if Lolita, that if she didn't go along with it, or if she tried to run or tell anyone, she would be put in reform school, maybe even juvenile detention. Remember? Dolores was also freed by a mysterious phone call to the hospital.

Immediately after, when Humbert was arrested, he states that he would have given himself at least 35 years for rip Which is Frank's exact sentence So I mean it's just all kind of weird And it's not like you didn't know about Sally Horner's case because he even said did I do what Frank the auto mechanic did to Sally Horner You know, look he even wrote that It's just weird and the fact that he never brought it up again, and the fact that he was like, no, it's not. And how do you feel about the whole thing?

Like the question of, can you be this inspired by true events? I mean, I get it, most crime, thriller, mystery fiction novels, which that's like a huge genre. A lot of them, they're pretty realistic. So it feels like maybe they are slightly inspired by certain kidnapping cases, because you want to be realistic. But this is a little above and beyond. What are your thoughts?

And I hope you guys enjoyed this week's episode, and I will see you on Sunday for the mini-sode. Bye!