Rotten Mango - #144: The Lake Waco Murders (Case of David “Chili” Spence)

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

Think about your dog, cat, or any beloved pet. If you don’t have one - imagine one. Would you ever chain your dog up to your chair all day long while you and your buddies watched TV? Would you make the dog beg you on all fours to use the restroom? And if the dog did something you didn’t like - would you ever dream of chaining up outside to a tree in the cold winter night? You wouldn’t dream of doing that to a dog. It would make you a horrible person. But that’s how David liked to treat his girlfriends. What does that make him? A murderer. Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rambles. Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are, whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay to description starting at $12.99 per month. Better being better.

Welcome to this week's episode of Rotten Mingo. I'm your host Stephanie Sue, and I'm sure that a lot of you guys have dogs. I mean, we have dogs, but imagine if you don't, that you have a pet. And every day, while you and your buddies watch TV, you chain your dog up by your chair. And if the dog so much has made a noise, you would beat the dog. You made the dog beg you to use the restroom, and only then would you escort the dog and watch it while it does its business. If the dog did something that you didn't like, you would punish the dog by chaining it up to a tree in the front yard for the entire cold wet night. Who does that?

Absolutely not one. And at the very least, if you did this, first of all, you should be in jail, but second of all, you would be a horrible dog owner. Like, what kind of person would do something like this to a dog? What's even more of a pressing question is what kind of person would do this to another human being? Because that's what David did. As always, full source notes are available at ronmanglepodcast.com, but there is an amazing book on this case called Careless Whisperers by Carlton Stowers. I've never heard of this case up until this book,

and I could not put it down. I will warn you though, it gets very, very emotional, probably leaves you with this feeling of like, this is the feeling I had. What is life? That's the feeling at the end. But it is a really good deep dive on this case. The author spoke with a ton of people involved in the case, so I'm talking prosecutors, district attorneys, defense attorneys, detectives.

He interviewed the victim's families, he interviewed hundreds of people to shine a light on this case. So let's get into it. Jill Montgomery was in the first grade, and she was hiding a bit of a secret. Jill from the outside, she seemed like a happy kid, constantly trying to make friends, but in private, she was struggling with the speech problem. I mean, it was just too much for her. She didn't even like to admit it.

So in class, when teachers asked her to answer questions, she would just refuse to answer them straight up. She wouldn't even say like, I didn't understand the assignment. She wouldn't say, oh, can you please repeat the question? No, she would just shut up and rather not embarrass herself in front of the class. Teachers later found out that she had dyslexia. They put her in special education classes, and I mean her grades improved, but I think her self-esteem really suffered.

There was such a stigma, and I think that there still is, which is horrendous. There was such a stigma, and she just felt lesser than the other students. They made her feel so stupid, like she wasn't learning as quickly as them. She refused to show up to these special ed classes, and by the time that she's in high school, she just like refused to go to school. To add on to that, her parents are getting divorced. She felt like her life was free falling,

crashing, burning, plummeting, straight to the ground. Her mom would leave for work, thinking that Jill had gone to school, but then she would come back home, and Jill didn't even pretend to go to school. Like you know what, imagine your mom left and you're like, oh, I'm skipping class, but I got to act like I went to school so you put on your little backpack, you walk in the door and you're like, oh, I'm so sorry, school was so crazy. No, she would be in her PJs and be like, oh, I was just hanging out with friends, I didn't

make it to class. What? She started acting out, she started ignoring all the house rules. Her mom had given her this curfew and she would just yell at her mom all the time. Just non-stop. During some days, they would just ignore each other for days at a time. Jill started talking about how she wanted to go live with her dad, the cooler parent. She had spent the weekends with her dad and um, that's a laid back dude. He was lenient, less strict on curfew, never really made her do chores.

So she's like, I want to go live with dad. I don't like being here anymore. And Nancy was like, you know what? Then do it. Go live with your father. I can't do it anymore. So she packed up her bags and she was like, by mom, she failed to realize that her dad was lenient

because he only saw her there on the weekends. But in actuality, living with him was a lot more intense than living with her mom, Nancy. Like he had way more rules. He was much more strict. He was much more stern. It only took Jill a few hours to go crawling back to her mom. I'm sorry mom, like I promise I'm gonna try harder.

I'll do better in school. I'm gonna change this time. I'm gonna show up to everything. I will never skip another day. I swear, please. Nancy took her back in and the change was very, very short lived. Nancy was so fed up this time. Jill went back on her word and she needed to figure out something new.

I mean, this was not teaching her any lesson. So there had been this place that she drove by in Waco, Texas. It's called the Methodist home. Think of it as like a community inside a community. So you have this giant building. I mean, it's on 130 acre plot of land. It houses 200 children. So it's like a boarding school?

Yeah, it's like a dorm, but the kids stay there, but they attend regular Waco public schools. So they'll take the bus, go to the regular school that they would normally go to, come back home, and it's like a Christian boarding school. They would have administrators, tutors there, they would have security guards making sure nobody left. It was almost like think of it as the ranch from Dr. Phil. That's the vibe that it was giving me honestly. Jill loved the idea. She's like, Waco, Texas? Yes, that's like two towns over. I'm going

to be so far away from my parents, which by the way, a Methodist church? I don't know, to me that sounds like they want people to be free. I grew up going to a Methodist church. Method is in the name of Methodist, so I'm just saying. It was a not a freeing environment. She said, they're gonna let me be independent. That's the vibe I'm getting. There's gonna be no parents breathing down my back. I mean, sure. I'm not dumb.

There's gonna be rules and stuff. But what are they gonna do if I break some, you know? They might not even notice 200 kids on 130 acres of land. I could just easily slip through the cracks. Oh, this is great. So Jill goes to the home and she calls it the home from now on. She never realized or never even considered that there would be more rules at the home than in her home with her mom.

There were teachers, counselors, supervisors, security guards, administrators constantly there, always there, watching her, waiting for the kids to violate a rule. It seemed like the home ones got off on it. They're like, oh, you messed up! I'm gonna remember this forever now. They would take away another privilege if you messed up, which by the way, it was a privilege that you had to earn to even see your parents.

They would tell the parents, no, no, no, no. It's best if you don't come. It just interferes with the process. Every little thing had to be earned. So the first three months it was really rough. She had tutoring sessions all the time, even if it's like boot camp. Jill would call her mom to say, I miss you mom, I miss being home like I'm gonna do better.

And her mom would say, no, this time I'm not taking you back. Slowly it starts getting better. Jill starts making some friends there, and since it's not in all girls' house, she even started flirting with boys. If you liked a boy, you would walk up hand in hand to the administrators and request to start dating. And if they approved it, you could officially be boyfriend and girlfriend, and I don't know what that means, I guess you could just hang out at the house, I don't know. So she started flirting. Her parents might have flipped out, but the administrators let her date. And Jill was really popular. Once she put in the effort to make friends, her parents might have flipped out but the administrators let her date. And Jill was really popular. Once she put in the effort to make friends, her friends all called her and I quote,

Rich Bitch. So her parents could buy her nicer clothes than the rest of the kids. So they just called her, Rich Bitch. This gave Jill a lot of confidence. Her grades started improving, she's getting along better with her parents And she started getting really serious about a boy named Kenneth Franks So this is a wild story. Jill's best friend at the home is named Gail and she introduced the two of them She said Jill. I want you to meet my other best friend. He's a guy. His name is Kenneth. Oh, he's hilarious

He drives a motorcycle. You're gonna love him. He's a guy. His name is Kenneth. Oh, he's hilarious. He drives a motorcycle. You're going to love him. He's handsome, too. And love him. She did. They immediately start dating and it would always be every single day. You would walk through the home and you would always see Jill Kenneth and Gail attached at the hips. You would think it's a little weird. Doesn't Gail feel like a third wheel? But that wasn't the case. Gail and Kenneth were literally the bestest of friends. Gail was always writing on the back of his motorcycle, pressed up against him. They were always together. But they were seriously just friends.

Gail was dating another guy that she wanted to marry. So I know, it sounds healthy. Honestly, it sounds way too healthy for me. Hopefully I will be a changed person one day. But I won't be. You're a lot of friends, but not girl best friends. That's too much. You can have girl friends. No wait, I take that back. You know what I mean. So the only creepy part about this little three-way friendship, yeah, it's weird. Is that

Jill and Gail looked practically identical. Everyone always got them confused. They always called Jill Gail. They called Gail, Jill, and they're like, what the fork is going on? Are you guys sharing not sisters? I swear you could be identical twins. I mean, that's got to be a little bit weird for Kenneth, no? So let's talk about Gail real quick. I guess in order to understand this whole love triangle and she actually becomes important to the investigation way later on, we have to give context on Gail's life. Her story is really sad. When she was just 15 years old,

her mom and dad have a heart attack. Her dad remarried and her stepmom made it super clear. I have no interest in raising another woman's child. I just don't, I don't care that your mom died. I don't care that I'm dating your dad. Nope, you're not my kid. And her dad took the stepmom side. He drove her to the Methodist home and dropped her off just like that. Like he's returning a sweater that he didn't like

and not his 15-year-old daughter. So Gail goes to the home and she starts acting out in very interesting ways. So a lot of the kids, I mean they were sent there because they were troubled kids and the parents couldn't handle them. Now most of them, which is trying to run away, most of them would break her a few, but Gail, she would accept crazy dares. I mean, she would run through the entire campus but naked, stopping in front of the administrator's office, hey administrator, you want to come outside,

just waving around but naked. So everybody loved her, except for the administrator. I'm like the administrator's really loved her, which is disgusting and they definitely probably did. But no, like all the students, they loved her, they loved being a rounder, they just thought she was this good-hearted person. She was one of the most popular girls on the campus and Ken was her favorite person ever. They just clicked since day one.

At first, they thought they were going to date. They go on a few dates. but it just didn't feel right. They said it's weird. It's like, it's like going on a date with your best friend that you've known forever. It just, it feels like we're trying to force it to be romantic, but we're not. We're just best friends.

Like it's weird. And in the end, they both agree. Their friendship would just be so much better if they were just best friends. That's it. Besides, Ken was head over heels for Jill at this point. So that is how the oddest three-friend group was born. Some kids would even tease Ken if he had twin girlfriends, but Jill did not seem jealous

ever, or even displayed any jealousy about this. It seemed to work for them. Gail and Jill even got jobs together at the Texas Rangers Hall of Fame gift shop. So June of that year, Jill's older brother and his wife, they go to the home and they ask, hey, can we take our little sister Jill for the weekend? We want to take her to six slugs hang out with the family, we're from out of town, please please please. The method is to home allows it.

They grant her permission, which is like really wild. Imagine you have to go get permission from an organization and be like, can I please hang out with my sister? So weird. So that weekend was amazing. Jill had so much fun. She even caught up with old friends and at the end of the weekend She tells her mom, hey, I'm gonna be taking the bus back to Waco Okay, well, I'm gonna be out work. So I love you sweetie. Please be safe and I'll see you, you know next weekend Now when Nancy gets back Jill is just at home. What the heck Jill? You should be in wake-up by now.

It's so late, like you're passing curfew. The buses are gone. There's no more buses. Now I have to drive you all the way to wake-up. I've worked early in the morning. Mom, I don't want to go back. So Nancy knew that Jill didn't like going back, but this time it felt different.

Like there had been so many times that Jill had called and pleaded with her, please don't send me back, please don't send me back, but this one felt different. It didn't feel like she was getting sick of the rules or she wanted to be free. No, it seemed like she was scared of going back. There was some fear in her voice. So Nancy was so taken aback by this, she sat down

and she just went straight into mom mode. What's the matter, honey? I just don't want to go back. But why? What's wrong? And Jill sat there and slowly tears are forming in her eyes and like dripping down her face. And Nancy felt like she was being punched in the gut because I mean, this is her daughter. Something is wrong. What is causing this reaction? Mom, please just let me stay. I just can't go back there. But you've been so happy. What about your job? And you love the gift shop and your friends? And Jill just started sobbing.

You can't keep throwing me out like I'm a dirty dish rag, mom. I mean, it just felt like a flip-it switch. Jill went from being fearful to suddenly very angry with her mom, which I mean is understandable if you're that scared. And she said, okay, okay, it's okay, Jill. It's going to be okay. I'm going to call the home, tell them that you're with me. And let's call your dad.

Let's figure something out. So they have a little family meeting and they tell Jill, you can stay with your mom. But sweetie, let's try one more time and you have to understand the rules haven't changed. You have to be the rules haven't changed. You have to be the one that changes. The rules are the rules, the curfew is the curfew and that's it.

Just don't worry, I know, I'm just happy to be home, I'm gonna keep up my grades and I've been doing well, so I just need to do that here too, don't worry. So they just don't even go back and get the rest of her clothes, she just stays there for the night and in the first couple of weeks, she seems to be doing well. She didn't get into college, but she attended a secretarial training school. She even applied to work at RIPS Barbecue Shop so she could save her own money. She talked about her future, and she just sounded so excited and bubbly like her life was

finally on track. But then she remembered she had some things to take care of. Back in Waco. She wanted to be the adult adult and just get it done. She needed to go to the home, grab some clothes that she left. She needed to pick up her final paycheck from her old workplace, the Texas Rangers Hall of Fame, and wrap up things with her boyfriend Kenneth. It seemed like she wanted to break up with him.

She even sat down with Nancy and asked her, mama, what do you do when you love someone that you just know isn't good for you? And her mom said, honey, I don't know. I don't think I'm the best person to ask because I'm divorced. And she thought it was hilarious, but Jill did not. Jill did not appreciate the joke at all. And her mom asked, are you talking about Kenneth? Yeah.

Well, I guess all I can tell you is you just have to use your head and follow your heart. And the two of them just sat in silence. The next day, June 13th, Jill leaves for a wake-up with her friend Raylene. So Raylene is not from wake-up, she's not part of the methodist home, she's like from her hometown, right? And she's gonna go, you know, help her run her errands, get closure. So Nancy waves by to her daughter having no clue that her daughter was holding on tightly in her pocket, a pocket knife for protection. So what is Jill so scared of? I mean, is she scared of her boyfriend, Kenneth?

Who is Kenneth? Let's talk about him. So Kenneth grew up in a quiet town in Texas. His parents had two kids, Kenneth and Curtis, and at first everything was great. Richard was the dad and he worked as a manager for a paint company near Waco. He brought in some money, like a good amount of money, but he was so busy. Always gone on business trips. Cracks in the marriage start to show and Richard would be gone Monday through Friday.

And every Monday before his little business trip, he would sit his wife down Sandra and say Sandra I really don't want to go you know what he leaving you in the kids. I wish I could just stay home Lay next to you cuddle you all day hang out with the boys, but Duty calls bills need to be paid. I got to go But then when he gets to the motel Sandra would call at night and call and call and call it and he wouldn't pick up So that Friday he gets home and she's like why why is it that every night you don't pick up your motel phone? What do you mean?

I mean a business meeting ran late. You're being unreasonable. Then it would happen again next week and he's like, my car broke down. So I had a AAA and the gap you know how it is And the next week I had a good late dinner with some client. I can't say no to clients. I gotta get laid Why do some clients you know how it is and then finally he admitted I'm cheating on you But don't freak out Sandra calm down. Don't freak out. Don't even get mad because I already promised myself That I would never do it again. So like you shouldn't even be mad that I did it in the first place because I already learned

my lesson. So it's like I made a mistake and then I'm moving on, I learned my lesson so like you don't have the right to feel anything. Now let's move on. I mean I guess he tried. So the next time that he was gone for work, he turned on the TV, read a book in the motel. God it was boring. It just wasn't fun you know. He turned on the TV, read a book in the motel. But God, it was boring.

I just wasn't fun, you know? It was lonely. Poor baby, he was lonely. He lasted a few weeks and then he went back to cheating on his wife. I mean, it went on for years. In the last two years of their marriage, Sandra and Richard tried couples counseling, but he was actively cheating on her. And she just couldn't take it anymore.

She filed for divorce and Richard hung his head and said, you know what, you didn't even try to say, sorry baby, I won't do it again. He said, you know what, it's for the best. Listen, I love you, Sandra, but I hate hurting you. But more than that, I hate being faithful more. It's like, okay. So even though their divorce was surprisingly amicable,

like Sandra is a much better woman than I could have ever been, Kenneth was really hard. He just already had this low self esteem and he started blaming himself for the parents divorce. It just made him angry that he couldn't do anything to stop it. In a lot of ways, Kenneth was really similar to Jill. He had a hard time struggling with his parents' divorce and he was also struggling with dyslexia. So they get a divorce and around the time that Kenneth is finally 11 years old,

he starts doing a little bit better, like he starts doing better in classes, he starts going to his special education classes, things are looking up, but his mom decides to get remarried. To a man who already had a daughter of his own, and he just was pissed. Kenneth's dad was honestly trying to be the bigger person. Well, not really, but he's the reason you get it.

Anyway, he was trying to be very helpful. He said, guys, kids, this is great. Look, now I have a friend to hang out with. I'm going to hang out with your stepdad. And it's good. I mean, how many people can say that they have two dads? This is going to be amazing. Kennet has grossed out.

He's like, I will never call the new guy dad. So fork you. And he just started acting out more. Sandra was so frustrated that she had a psych evaluation done for her son. She said, I need to know what's wrong with this guy. All she learned from it was that he had an above average IQ. He had some problems in learning and he had behavioral and emotional problems. So around this time, she just realized, I can't do this anymore. She called her ex husband Richard and finally admitted what no mom wants to admit. I'm in over my head. I need help. He's ignoring my rules. He's undermining my authority. He's not even trying

at school anymore. I just can't do it anymore. I don't know how to help him or even begin to discipline him. He's just so negative. He's rubbing off on all of us. I'm scared it's rubbing off on my new husband and my new stepdaughter and he's just so negative. He's rubbing off on all of us. I'm scared it's rubbing off on my new husband and my new stepdaughter and he's just not letting us be happy." Richard agreed, he said, I think the boy just needs a more structured environment. You're right, he can't live like this. I wish I could take him, but you know how much I travel for work. Okay, well there's this place that I drive by all the time and people say amazing things about it.

It's called the Methodist Home in Waco. Maybe we can enroll Kenneth there. And that's what they did. At first he hated it. He hated the structured environment. It made him want to act out more. But then slowly, he starts making friends. Mainly a girl named Gail Kelly.

And that was his best friend in the whole wide world, by the way. The only friend that he had ever trusted. And by his second year in the home, Kenneth was improving. It looked like he was being fast-tracked into a success story. He started playing golf, his grades are getting better. He never lost that prankster edge though, so he would do these harmless pranks on teachers and on students, and everybody thought it was nice. It was like he was uplifting the energy in the classrooms.

So he was like a, not a bully, but like, you know, one of those clown goofs, like a little goofball. And Kenneth was doing so well that he actually asked his dad if he could move in with him and spend time with him instead and Richard agreed. But first, he wanted to talk about Kenneth about something, man to man. Now that Kenneth was old enough, he sat him down

and he said, son, the reason that your mom and I didn't work and got divorced was because I cheated, nonstop. And I wouldn't stop. I refused to change. Kenneth's just stood there and shocked. Like, he didn't even know how to react. He had no idea that his dad was to blame for the breakup of the family.

It, for years, he blamed his mom. He blamed his mom for getting remarried, for treating the rest of the family, like they were just nothing, for abandoning them, for betraying the family. In a sense, he felt like he felt like he had abandoned his mom, he ruined their relationship, he felt this burden, and now he didn't know how to act, he didn't know what to do. He had to process this information, but thankfully at the end he came out even stronger. And his new life with his dad was amazing. His dad was so proud of him he bought him a motorcycle, new clothes. And then slowly, it started to fall apart. That summer, he had to take summer classes, he had to work part time. His motorcycle was broken, it needed repairs, which means he needed to work more because that's going to be expensive. And then on top of that, the worst part is his girlfriend Jill was leaving Waco for good. She just left one weekend and decided she was never going to come back. What does that even mean?

He was crushed. But July 13th, he gets a phone call. He almost leaped out of his chair to pick up the phone. Jill, hello? Hey, I'm in town and I was wondering if you have time to hang out. I really need to get home tonight, but I wanted to see you maybe at the park we could watch the sunset. Yeah, yeah, I have time at your time. Well, I'm bringing a friend, Raylene.

She's coming, so maybe you could bring a friend too. Yes, absolutely. I'll bring a friend. So he hangs up and he calls his friend Bobby. Hey, Bobby, Jill just called. Like, she wants to ask if we want to go to Coney Park tonight. She's bringing a friend. Are you still grounded?

Can you come? Sorry man, I'm so grounded for the full month. My parents are pissed that I took the boat for Fourth of July. They're pissed. Come on, Raylene Rice is coming. She's like a really pretty blonde girl. Sorry dude, I have to pass.

They're really pissed. Okay fine. So Kenneth hung up and he turned to his dad and he said, I know. I know I'm only allowed to have it for errands and important stuff, but can I park your car please? My motorcycle is broken. I need to meet her at the park. Why don't you just invite the girls over to our house instead? You can sit by the pool or the club room. Remember where you had your birthday party? Okay, let me ask. But Jill really wanted to see the sunset. Okay, that's fine, Kenneth, but you have to remember you have school tomorrow, so don't

be late. Get home before midnight, okay? Okay, they're going to pick me up, so Dad, I don't even need your car. I'll be home by midnight. I promise I swear. This is the last conversation that Kenneth would have with his dad. Now, let's talk about Coney Park. It was a beautiful place for sunset. It was a beautiful place for Sunset. It was one of those, it's like, they had like half a dozen public parks around the shorelines of Lake Waco, and Coney Park was one of them.

Teens would go there to just hang out. It was a scenic spot. Some parts were really quiet. They had these concrete tables and benches. You could sit on and just soak in the view. You could even camp there. So at midnight, Richard takes one look at his clock, and he's sighing.

Ken is late again. I mean, is a sunset at 6 p.m.? Yeah, and he's, it has been night. And he's like, where the hell is Ken? Now I have to wait, like yell at him in the morning, which I really don't want to, but 12 is 12. There's no use waiting up now,

so Richard goes to bed, but he naturally wakes up at 2.30. He's just not sleeping well. He drags himself out of bed, goes to Ken's room, it's empty. Again, I mean sometimes Ken would stay out all night since he missed curfew already, he's like, what's the point going back late? I'm already late. But he had just been so responsible lately.

If he knew that he wasn't going to be home by curfew, Ken had made it a habit of calling his dad, letting him know where he is giving him updates, was Ken going back to his old ways? And then for him, Richard's anger turned into anxiety, and it started to boil over, Ken was still not home. So he gets dressed, he rushes to Coney Park, that's where Ken said he would be, right? And it's pitch black. There was barely any lights on, and Richard drove and drove drove around and he found no sight of really anyone or any teenagers. But it just felt everything was silent, completely silent. Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs, whatever was in there. Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this? No, who's going to catch us?

Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this? No. Who's going to catch us? What a police. It was the height of the crack era. And instead of locking up drug dealers, some New York City cops had become them. I would suit up in my uniform and we're going to want some drug dealers. And I know how to do it really well.

This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal some drug dealers and I know how to do it really well. This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all. Did you consider yourself a rat? 100% I save my soul just like everybody else does. Listen to and follow the set, an Autosy Originals documentary podcast series available now in the Autosy app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shoes. I'm not a big guy, man, but I love being that dirty mother f***er.

He did find a car that seemed to belong to Jill's friend. It had a bumper sticker on the back for our high school, but there was no one inside. Maybe they met up with some other kids and they took one car. So he kept driving around until the sun came back up and he just kept thinking about that car and the parking lot. So he's like, okay, I gotta go back to that car. So he drives back to Coney Park, back to the car

and he starts peering inside. This time he literally gets out of his car to look inside and some strange things he realized was the passenger seat door was unlocked. The driver's side seat was pushed forward and in the the back he saw what looked like Ken's keychain. It was wedged between the seat and the backrest. And in that moment Richard knew all the anger that he felt melted away and he was frozen in fear. The one thing that he taught his son is that if you were in trouble you should always hide your keys.

No way. If you ever get in trouble, hide your keys. I don't know. Maybe as evidence, maybe so no one can find your keys and force you to go home with them, you know, just or us. Hey, this is me because they didn't have like phones back then, I guess. So your keys are like identifying to you and the keys were hidden. They weren't just dropped on the seat as if they fell out of his pocket

So Richard scrambled he found some paper scraps in the car and left a little note for Ken Call me if you get this come home ASAP. I will help you He knew that he needed to call Jill's parents to let them know what was going on But he didn't know how so he starts digging around in the car and he finds the registration to Raymond Rice Which is Raylene's father. He calls Raymond, tells him everything that he knows, and they even get Jill's mom's number, and they call her too, and then Richard went in and filed a missing person's report for all three kids. Around the same time that Richard is freaking out at the police station, there were two fishermen out and having some crappy

luck. They had been out since literally the wee hours of the morning. Not a single thing was found. Not a single fish was caught. Nothing. Should we give up and go home? What if we tried Lake Waygo? Maybe we should try one more time before sunset. So they load up their car and they start driving

through this little shortcut route. Through a speagle-vill park. Now they turn into this dirt road and something was in front of them, about 20 feet in front of them. It was like a body. It had its legs stretched out onto the dirt path and the fisherman stopped the car. I mean, I think this part is a little weird. They sit in the car for minutes.

They just stop the car, break, park, and they just sit there together like, what do you think that is? I don't know. It's some sort of sick joke right? I mean that's got to be a prank. It looks like a body though doesn't it? Yeah exactly like a prank like a mannequin. But what if it's not? It is. I mean that makes the most sense. Okay. Should we get out and check at the same time? Deal. They open their doors and they walk towards the, quote, dummy. That's what they kept calling it, you know, like a mannequin. And the figure was laying beneath a small tree and it looked like a young man.

Oh, God, is that, is that blood on his shirt? He's a gag tied around his mouth. There were sunglasses covering his eyes in a white bandana over his head. His hands were tied behind his back with shoelaces. Oh my god, it's a real person. It's a body. So the fisherman, they run back to their car. They drive to the sheriff's office and they tell him, we found a dead body near Lake Waco. We need to go. The sheriff was not freaking out. You see, as the middle of July in Texas, the body is

just an old fisherman. Da, he doesn't even need to go to the crime scene to understand. It's just a mold dude who is out fishing and he probably had a heat stroke. It is July and Texas, are you kidding? So much sun exposure, maybe even dehydration. So he calmly walks out with him and he's like, all right, lead the way. Which like, even if it is an old fisherman. Yeah, I'm so confused. I don't know what the calmness is about, but his whole attitude

apparently changed once he got to the body. It was not of an old fisherman, which like, how is that okay anyway? It was of a young teenage boy. It was clear that he had been stabbed, gagged, and tied up. It was clearly a homicide. He called for backup, but in this small town word had gotten around. So all down this small dirt road, there were constables, patrolmen, TV reporters, park employees, kids. Yes, kids and their parents were showing up to see what the hell was going on. It was a circus. The police were trying to secure the scene and also survey the rest of the area and they

found that near the body, not too far away, in the woods, there was another victim. A nude young girl, she had a piece of red and white cloth tied around her mouth. Her bra was tied around her ankle and she too had been stabbed. And just a few feet from her, it was another nude body, bound and gagged. Her body was in the worst condition. She had been stabbed more. It was a very bloody scene. Her throat had been cut as well.

So while the crime scene remained in chaos, three sets of parents paced around their rooms searching the streets, calling everyone that they knew desperately looking for their kids, anticipating that one phone call that would tell them, hey, they're safe. Meanwhile, the police rush three bodies to get out of the top seat. So I'm sure you guys know where this is going. These are the bodies of Kenneth, Raylene, and Jill. So the medical examiner started with Kenneth, and he had KF tattooed on his bicep.

He had been stabbed 20 times and cut from the chest and the neck. Ten of the stab wounds were in his heart, six of them in his lungs, two punctured the liver, and many of them by themselves would have been fatal. The sinister part, though, was that he had, and many of them by themselves would have been fatal. The sinister part, though, was that he had a slew of superficial wounds as well. So tiny little cuts. These types of cuts don't happen by accident.

No, they're very deliberate. Someone wanted to torture him before he died. The next body was Jill Montgomery. The doctor said that it was clear that she had been sexually assaulted. She had struggled a great deal like she fought for her life. There were cuts on her right hand and fingers, even after scraping all the wounds, there was no DNA that they could process that could point to the killer. Jill had been stabbed nine times in the chest, liver, and lungs. She had five cuts across her chest and it also indicated that she had been tortured. Her throat had been slit. Her left nipple had also been cut off her breast.

The medical examiner was really disturbed by this because she realized that none of the stab wounds or slashes would have resulted in death. None of them were fatal. Not even where her throat had been cut. How did she die? She blood to death. She believed thankfully that jail might have been unconscious after the attack, but she probably lived on for an hour or longer.

Then they autopsyed Raylene Rice's body. She was stabbed eleven times. The lungs and the heart had been stabbed, causing severe internal damage. She was also stabbed once in the throat. Her neck had been slashed, similar to Jill's, and they believed that she too had been sexually assaulted. Now these are alarming autopopsies, brutal injuries, and heinous murder.

I mean, the town of Waco and the families of the victims, they demanded answers. Unfortunately, for the police, there just wasn't much evidence to go on. Sure, they knew the victims. They tried to reconstruct their day and find out what happened, but I mean, it was hard. They really had no idea,

so they just started bouncing off ideas with each other. A lot of them were just going off gut, which I don't even think you can call it a gut, because listen to this. There's an officer named Ronnie, and Ronnie is an idiot. Ronnie said, trust me, I know what's happened. I grew up with Jill Montgomery's dad, and I'm telling you he's strange. I think he could be a potential suspect. Oh yeah, why would Jill's dad be a suspect?

Well, he always wears his damn hair in a pony tail. I mean, the guy is in his 40s. That's gotta be something, right? I mean, I definitely think he's an insert R word. These arguments, if you could even call it arguments, were idiotic at best. And you could, can you believe this kind of police officer? Can you believe?

I mean, Detective Ronnie is really something else. And he's gonna be very frustrating in this investigation. So earlier that day, no, like the day before the murders, he had gone to the county clerk's office and the receptionist there, her name is Karen, and Karen told him, hey, Officer Ronnie, actually never mind. Actually, yes, no, never mind.

Actually, can I tell you something? I'm a little nervous to tell you this, but I know that I can trust you because I'm really good friends with your wife and your sister-in-law and I just, I just want you to know that I'm not crazy. Well, did you know one time that I used to work with the Dallas Police Department on a missing persons case? Yeah, I did. So, I mean, if the Dallas Police department think that I'm that I know something

Then I have experience right and I'm credible and you're not gonna think I'm crazy, right? What is this about Karen? Just tell me I'm not gonna think you're crazy. I had a vision So this is before the murders were found out. Okay. This is before anything hit the news before the police even knew about the Lake wake Oh murders. It was like the day of the murder, essentially. Anyway, I had a vision. A what? Okay, so I mean, I was sitting alone in my living room, right?

And I had the TV on it. I guess I was just dozing off on the couch, and out of nowhere, I popped up, like I literally shot up, and I was up, I was up and alert, and I checked my watch, it was 8.4545pm and then without any explanation I had this vision. Like it was like a hazy vision, a projection appeared before me. It was a car filled with people. They were slowly moving into a wooded area toward a body of water.

I didn't know anyone in the car. I felt so much anxiety, I felt this sudden rush of like, what is going on? But then the vision kept going. I saw the car moving down the dirt road and it looked like it was near a lake. It felt like I was no longer in my living room, but instead I was literally in the car. That's what it felt like. Or at least it felt like I was floating near the car. I was watching what was in the car, but I didn't have a body. Like I was just, it was like a movie. There were two girls in the car and but I didn't have a body. Like I was just, it was like a movie. There were two girls in the car and three different guys.

They were strangers to me. I've never been even where the car was going. It was all new to me. I don't even know where it was going. The girl in the front seat was a brunette. She was really pretty. Maybe a 17 years old. She looked terrified though.

Terrified. There was a male driver and he had this thick shoulder-length hair and a mustache and he was just, he was laughing. He looked crazy. It was like listening to the devil laughing and it wasn't funny. Nothing was funny. Nobody in the car thought it was funny. I was, I was terrified of him immediately. And in the backseat, there were three more people. Two guys and one of them was white and the other one wasn't, and anyway, the driver and one of the guys in the back, they just looked so evil. They were drinking beers while the car was just speeding deeper and deeper and deeper into the woods, and I just felt like something evil was happening.

I could sense it. And then the vision was only just getting more intense. And I know that you might think that I'm crazy, but trust me, I've been having these visions since I was eight years old. Since what? Okay, the first time I had this dream that a car hit a road in front of our house like a little lamp post, the driver was a male and he had a small puppy in the car.

So then the next day, I'm eating lunch with my family and I hear this big boom. It sounded like a crash, so my dad rushes outside and there was a man crashed into the tree. So I yelled at my family because they got the guy out and I'm like, get the dog too, get the dog. And Karen's dad was like, what? What dog?

And my dad was like, what? What dog? I don't see a dog. I said, you have to find the dog. There's a puppy. So my dad looked and he looked and he found a shivering little poodle hiding beneath the seat. And he took the dog out and, looked at me and he said,

honey, how did you know that little dog was in the car? I don't know, I just said. From then on, I had more visions here and there. You know, my friends and family, they all believe me and they call me a little psychic, but I just never attempted to hone in on any of this like our profit off of it. In fact, I really hate most professional psychics.

I feel like these visions are something that you can control. Anyway, then I grew up and I got married, right? I moved to Georgia. Did you know that? I think your wife might have told you, but I was in Georgia with my first husband, and that's when my visions took a turn. It wasn't visions about me or things

directly connected to me anymore. No, I started seeing crime scenes. So I started seeing this young black kid being murdered in Atlanta. And I saw the area is really familiar to me, but I didn't live anywhere near Atlanta. I mean, I lived in the rural parts of Georgia. So I called my sister who lives in Atlanta. And I said, can you turn on the news? I mean, this sounds crazy. But recently, was there a little boy murdered? Maybe in his early teens, was he lured into a car and then senselessly murdered in a brutal way?

Yes, oh my god, how did you know it's been all over the news? Well, there's going to be two more soon, two more murders. The bodies are going to be near each other and near alike. God, I'm so scared. I hate these visions and I don't know what to do. Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I hope I'm wrong, but please, just let me know if you hear anything else. A few days later, shaken and scared, Karen's sister called her. I just... I read in the paper about two kids that

were found off off the Lake Road. Both of them were 14 and they were found a hundred yards away from each other. This is what began the whore that would later be known as the Atlanta Child Martyrs. Karen would start calling her sister often, telling her about more visions. She knew where kids had been killed or where they would be found. She would know their ages, their locations, and she said that she had no idea. I mean, she wasn't connected to any of this.

It was like she was living a nightmare, and she didn't know what to do. Her sister thought it was so scary that she called the Atlanta police department and suggested that they work with Karen to help solve the murders. And the police said, yet no fork you, we're not working with no psychic. So Karen said that she saw the killer in her visions.

He was a Vietnam veteran who was an outpatient at the Atlanta Veterans Hospital. He had seen several of his comrades get killed by Vietnamese children because, you know, during the Vietnam War, a lot of kids were forced to fight. And he would have these flashbacks, these moments, and he was a very calm laid back well liked patient guy but he would lash out at kids he would go on a mission to set out and find them and kill them to get his revenge. He would wear his military police uniform and tell the kids that he was a police officer and their kids and kill them.

All day every day all Karen did was wake up and write down her visions. She was obsessed over the Atlanta child murders. I mean, to put a huge strain on her marriage, it got so bad that they got a divorce. And this kind of woke her up. She knew that she had to put some distance between her and the murders and move on with her life, or at least try to. So she moved to Texas to get a fresh start. And two years later, Wayne Williams was convicted of the murder of two young black children

in Atlanta. So even though his murders of the children were very different from the Atlanta child murders, the police were like, yeah, we know it doesn't make sense. But if you don't think about it at all, it makes a lot of sense. So we caught the serial killer. We excel at our job and everyone can calm down.

Karen was not convinced. I mean, nobody else was not convinced either, but her visions did stop. And she just felt like her life had changed forever, she was terrified. She hated the violent, she hated these visions, and she promised herself never to get invested again. If she had another vision, she would never tell anyone about it, and she would just try to move on. But that night, July 13th, she had a vision.

She could even see what the kids were wearing in the car. She could tell that the boy, she didn't know the name, but it was Kenneth. Had recently washed his hair and the girl the pretty brinette, she had three rings on her hand, and one of those rings was a gift from the boy. She just knew it. The other young girl, the blonde, was wearing this heavy perfume, and it's like she could almost smell it during her vision. The three of them were sitting on a concrete table

in the park and it was clear that the pretty Brinette and the boy, they liked each other. And then three more people pulled up to them and they started talking, it seemed like they knew each other. The driver was about five nine, he looked like he was a weightlifter or something, he didn't have a shirt on or shoes and he was drinking beer and it was clear

that he was pretty high. The boy Kenneth immediately recognized him. He started introducing to the driver to the girls, oh God, what was his name? And the vision I heard the name, it was like, Dale? No, Dave? And then the vision stopped. And then a little while later, it came back.

They were all in the same car. And the Bernat wanted to get into the back, but the driver insisted that she sit in the front with him. I mean, it was strange. She didn't know any of them, and it just felt like she was watching strangers. But she knew something very, very evil, something very, very bad was going to happen. I'm telling you, Ronnie, it was weird. Then the car left to go to another park, and it started making its way into the wooded area. Then out of nowhere, the boy, one of the boys in the back leaned over and stabbed the nice boy.

And I felt a chill go down my spine. The driver stopped and the two men pulled the boy out the car, let his body go limp on the road. They tied him up. The pretty brunette tried to make a run for it, she kept stumbling on the branches in the dark. The driver caught up to her, shoved her up against a huge oak tree, tore off her clothes. And the two guys were laughing while they dragged her back to the car.

And then the vision cut off. And then it started again. But this time the other guy from the back seat was dragging the blonde girl out of the car with a knife-turret throat. The boy, the nice boy, was forced to watch as his friends were raped and killed. And the vision was horrifying. You don't even understand. It was a paralyzing sequence of violence and sexual abuse. And when vision was horrifying. You don't even understand. It was a paralyzing sequence

of violence and sexual abuse. And when they were done, the guy took a ring from the blonde girl's finger and he slipped it into his pocket as a souvenir. And then in flashes, the visions kept coming back. Karen would see the two men urinating in the lake and then throw something in there. She said the visions lasted for three hours and it felt like she was living a nightmare for three hours. She was shaking, terrified, full of anxiety, but it can't be true, right? I mean, she doesn't even know where this took place. How would she even call the police? Did it even happen? Was it going to happen? Did it already happen? Maybe it happened ten years ago. She prayed that it was all a nightmare. She knew, but she knew, deep in her bones, that somewhere, this happened to someone.

The next day she woke up and she scanned every single paper she could get her hands on, that morning, and there was no news of the crime. She goes to work and she tells Ronnie everything about her visions. And this is before, you know, the police found out about the murders. So he just looks at her. You know, he smiled. She was out of breath. She just got done telling her story and she waited and he's just smiling.

Okay, she knew where this was going. Ronnie was smiling at her in a way that made her feel like she was crazy. He just smiled and said, well, I'll look into it. Then he left. He told her that if he saw any signs of her visions and it would help any sort of investigation, he would call her.

Something important to note about Detective Ronnie is that he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. For one, this guy had absolutely no social cues at all whatsoever. So after the news of the murders broke, he ran into Nancy, Jill's mom at the grocery store, and he told her, I'm so sorry for your loss. I mean, I'm personally involved in your loss. I mean I'm personally involved in the investigation and I will stop at nothing until you get justice. But I will tell you one thing. Your daughter was a fighter. What? What do you mean? Oh I mean we heard

in the office that her fingers were severed because she was fighting so hard for her life. I also heard it took her a long time to die. So she really fought till her last breath. I mean, you really had a fighter. For a second, Nancy felt like she was going to faint. She broke down into tears. She ran out of the store and Ronnie stood there and shocked like, wait, what did I say? Why is she so mad? I don't get it.

So this is the same guy that doesn't take care and seriously, which honestly, this part I don't really blame him. Side note, another creepy thing that happened was another psychic called during this very high profile lake wake-o murder investigation and she said that she had visions of the murders and the visions were eerily similar to Karen's. With the driver, how it happened, the lake,

the only difference was that she said she saw Jill get stabbed in the car first. Meanwhile, Karen's all Kenneth get stabbed in the car first. But everything else, I mean, was pretty much the same, minus some inconsequential details. That's kind of creepy, no? Now, I mean, the police did not take it seriously, and I can't even get mad at them for this.

The police kind of ignored it, and they moved on to other leads, which they had plenty of. They were getting like hundreds of calls every single day, but they were so severely disorganized. The Waco Police Department just, they didn't have a system. So sometimes they would lead to investigators investigating the same leads, three, four, five times, separately.

They just had no way of knowing what each other were working on. Sometimes it meant that no leads were getting checked. Like random leads were going completely unchecked. So the team on this case, you know, there were a couple different officers, and the head of the case, Marvin, decided to put an end to the inefficiency. He said that he had his team read the reports being filed on a daily basis, so that they knew everything that was going on. His team was getting smaller due to less funding,

but he was going to make up for it with a better working oiled machine of a team. But within a few months, they still had no strong suspects. The team was losing hope. More detectives started working on other cases. They stopped reading the case reports, and one detective that seemed hooked on this case was detective Truman Simon's. So Truman, purely out of his own personal interest,

he was just one of those people that couldn't go to sleep at night without checking the boxes, answering the questions, and he was a curious person. In September, he read the updated case reports, which by the way, none of his other colleagues seem to be reading, and the words slapped him in the face, and it almost knocked the breath out of him. Case suspended.

What the heck? It had only been 52 days since the case even opened. A triple homicide in less than two months of investigating is being suspended? That doesn't even make sense! He knew this wasn't good because the only way for a suspended case to get solved at this point was if someone walked into the station and gave a full confession. Suspended cases don't get funding.

They don't get attention. They don't get manpower. It would go into the filing cabinet and be forgotten, along with all the other suspended unsolved cases. But how do you just forget three teenagers that ended up murdered by the lake? That doesn't make sense. So he picks up the phone and he calls this boss and he says, I don't want to overstep.

But the crime, this crime of this magnitude should not go unsolved. I think that I can have a fresh approach to the investigation. I think that I would be very helpful. Please, I will still do the rest of my case works. I just want to get this done. Now Truman was known for having a really good gut. Like he was just known for having really strong instincts. And the boss said, if anyone is gonna help solve this case,

it's gonna be Truman. And you know what Truman? I was actually wondering how long it would be before you called me about this case. So yeah, work on it on your free time. He was given the go ahead and he started going over the case files. One report immediately stood out to him. Someone had reported a man named Manir.

Now, Manir had owned a store across the Methodist's home, like a little grocery shop, and he hated Kenneth. He threatened Kenneth at one point. So Manir is the guy who's in his early 20s, so he's very young. He's very ambitious, by the way. He talked about how the store was just the start. He would eventually have like a video game room, like a PC-bong situation, and, you know,

he would house some of the most popular games. He had a business partner that was already helping him with it. Coincidentally, though, his business partner used to be a former police officer named Willie Tom Kidd's. That's who Truman interviewed. Willie, the business partner, and Willie admitted that Minier had talked about Lake Waco murders, and he straight up started laughing about it. And he was weird.

He said Minier was happy that Kenneth was killed and said that he got what he deserved and he had it coming. Minier also mentioned that he knew the two girls that were killed, they had come into the store the day that they were murdered. But you know, one thing to know about this guy is that he loves making outrageous statements. Mani, he just loves it. That's the type of guy he is. He loves getting attention in that way. So Truman moved on and he went to interview a guy named Bobby. Remember the friend that Kenneth was supposed to go with to the park but he was grounded? Yes. Because he took his parents' boat? Yeah. well, I mean, he knew the severity of the situation. He would have died if he had gone, too.

So he's interviewing with Truman, and he's like, wait, what's going on? Why are you asking me about a guy named Manir? Are you seriously thinking that Wimpy Dude that runs the store by the Methodist home? Killed Kenneth? I mean, he hated Kenneth, yeah, but he couldn't have pulled something off like that.

The guy couldn't even whip his way out of a paper bag. Kenneth would have loved to get into a fight with him honestly. He would have kicked his ass. What do you mean by that? Why would they have wanted to get into a fight? Will they kinda have this thing, you know, something to do with Gail, one of Ken's best friends.

Listen, I don't know much, but I think Minier had the hots for her or something, and Ken thought he was a creep. He just kept telling her to stay away from him and can use to make fun of his limp. Sometimes he would make racial jokes at him, and they got into a few cursing fights but that was odd. There was no way it was Minier. I mean this guy is scared of his own shadow. Do you really think he had something to do with the murders?

I don't know Bobby but we do have a lot of names on our list and we're just going to check them all out. Truman found out that Minier himself was probably incapable of committing such a gruesome murder. He was a bit more on the pathetic side. That's what Truman said. So for example, he was obsessed with Gail and he would give Gail entire bags of marijuana. And at first he would say, I will give you this bag of free weed if you give me a kiss. A fuck no. What about a kiss on the cheek?

Fuck no. How about a handshake? Okay, sure. And he shook her hand and gave her a bag of weed. He offered to buy Gail her own apartment and give her a job at the store, and she asked if she had to sleep with him in exchange for that. And he said, what? No, you don't have to worry about me.

I can't even get it up. Then he would take her shopping and bought her all sorts of things for her new apartment, all courtesy of Manir, and Gail moved in and excitedly invited Kenneth over to her new fancy apartment, and while they're on the floor talking, Manir stopped by unannounced and he was pissed. His entire face went red and he told Gail, I'll talk to you about this later and he slammed the door shut. He zipped out of the parking lot, and Gail was so terrified, she had Kenneth help her pack her things up, and she moved out the door shut. He zipped out of the parking lot, and Gail was so terrified, she had Kenneth help her packer things up, and she moved out the same day.

But now he's stuck with this 12 month lease. So afterwards Gail ended up moving in with a friend, and after the murders took place, she came home to have her apartment broken into multiple times. The first time she freaked out because nothing was taken, but something strange had happened in the kitchen. All the knives were taken out of the drawer and rearranged on the countertop in a row. From smallest to largest, it was very creepy. And right next to the knives, there was a note. Sorry we missed you this time, but we'll get you next time. The police didn't care, they just wanted to grill Gail about her murdered friends. They said, ah well well, if they didn't take anything and you didn't get her, what are we

going to do about it? Gail also reported that one day she went to a 7-Eleven and patty, her friend, was waiting in the car. Gail sees that two guys are leaned up against her car and one of them says, hey, what's it like to be alive at 18? And she knew this guy. He hung out with Manira a lot. But what was his name?

Was it like, Dale or Dave or something? Or like David? Something like that. But I think he always went by the, what was his nickname? Chili? I think he always went or cheese chili. That was his nickname. So he does nickname. So she's telling this to the police. And I said, what, what do you mean how does it feel to be alive at 18? Oh, nothing, forget it. I thought you just had a birthday.

Uh, I'm only 17. Will you want a party with me? No. Oh, well, I just thought maybe since Manir wasn't getting any, you might like to get inspired a real guy. Gail got into the car and drove off, but it was a terrifying experience. Anyways, back to Manir and his other shady dealings. Gayle got into the car and drove off, but it was a terrifying experience. Anyways, back to Maniera and his other shady dealings.

At one point, he asked his good friend, David Spence, to wreck his car for him, so that he could file an insurance claim. Now Truman didn't believe that Maniera himself was capable of the gruesome triple homicide, but David Spence, who goes by chili, might have been. He was a very scary guy. Let me explain. So a girl from the methodist home named Linda had gone on a date with chili after the Lake Wico murders. I mean, she didn't want to go on a date with the guy named chili, but her friend was going on a date with chili's friend.

And she was like, oh, just calm. Like, there's going to be a guy there for you. And it happened to be freaking chili. He picks them up while drinking a ton of beers while driving. He drove to pick up Lisa's other friend. They all drove to the park together and while he's drinking beer, Lisa's friend and the other guy go off. So it's just the two of them and it's starting to get dark in the park and he's wearing sunglasses.

So she's joking. Why don't you take the sunglasses off? It's pretty dark outside. Chilly doesn't want you to see his eyes. He said this in third person. And she said, it's getting dark here. I don't like it. I think we should go back home.

Why? She still makes the words that's too similar to a place where my friends were killed recently. And Chilly laughed, put his arm around her, and said, you want to go into the woods with Chilly? I'll protect you. And nothing going to happen to you when you're with chili. I mean, does this guy think in the third person too? It was creeping her out. No, I'm not going into the woods with anyone.

Why are you trying to scare me? Are you afraid to die or something? You're afraid of the Reaper? You shouldn't be afraid to die. Nobody should be afraid to die. Now go get chili a beer from the cooler. No, I'm not your servant. And he grabbed her by the arm, pulled her clothes and said, get Chilly a beer. And then without

a word, he kissed her and started to fondle her. And she started trying to pull away and he started laughing. Be nice to Chilly. And Chilly will be nice to you. He kissed her again. And at this point, her discomfort and unease just straight up turned into fear for her life. Afterwards everyone suggested that they all hang out at Chili's place. Linda did not want to go, her friend is not girl code right now. But there was no way for her to say no and when Linda gets to Chili's place she tries to casually leave.

You know, I'm gonna go get some lead for all of us. And he blocked her from leaving, he was holding a knife. He said you be nice to chili And he rubbed the tip of the blade on her chest and Chili will be nice to you and he started circling her nipples with the point of the knife And he calmly walked to the front door locked it grabbed her by the hair slapped her around Through her onto the bed and said, you're going to get fucked bitch and then proceeded to undress her. She started screaming, please leave me alone, like please let me go. If you don't, you're going to get in a lot of trouble."

And he laughed at her and he said, you stupid cunt. Chili's already in a lot of trouble. And then he proceeded to assault her. There were bite marks all over her shoulders and breasts left by chili. And it took her days to even tell her friend what had happened. So this is David Spence, aka chili. And we're going to talk about him later. So anyways, Manir weaseled his way back into Gail's life. And he decided to take her out to the movies with her friend Patty. This is after the murders. And they're watching the movies. It was like a really gruesome horror movie just animals dying everywhere blood everywhere Gail was so gross out she needed to leave early and she said I can't do this the whole thing reminds me too much of what happened to my friends

And then Manier sat in the car silent for a while and he said out loud and barely a whisper I did it Did what I did it I killed them what I'm just kidding, I'm kidding, don't freak out, don't be mad, it was just a joke. Gail immediately called Detective Truman when she got home, which by the way, he knew that Gail was important to the story. He didn't know why yet, but Detective Truman believed that Gail looking so similar to Jill played a big part in the murders. He didn't know why, he didn't know how, he couldn't make sense of it, but it had to be something. So that night, Manier was arrested for the murder of Kenneth. The police were ecstatic, they were finally going to get some justice. They were going to stop having the public breathing down their backs. But there was no clear logical motive. What did Manier gain from killing all of them? Sure, he hated Kenneth, but there must have been better ways to kill him.

What did the girls have to do with any of this? Did he maybe think that Jill was Gail because they look so similar? Because maybe he didn't know Jill at all. Maybe he didn't know that that was Jill. He just thought out of that looks like Gail. It was dark outside. And then the police started paying attention to David Spence, Meneer's friend, and which by the way, I mean, he's really important to the story,

so a little side note on him. He also grew up at the Methodist home. He was married at 15 years old. He was not a good husband at all. He was a horrible father at that because they had kids. And after that, he just kind of became an attention whore. He started mixing drugs, marijuana, speed, hash, LSD, everything. He would commit $25 robberies, get caught.

And because he was so embarrassed that he got caught for stealing $25, he would brag to people. Hey, you know, I was charged with arm robbery, right? Get caught and because you was so embarrassed that he got caught for stealing $25 he would brag to people Hey, you know, I was charged with arm robbery, right? I'm facing attempted murder charges of a police officer Like what how's that any better? I mean this is bonkers Police said that David changed after prison regardless of what he was in for he was drinking more pretending to be the tough guy He said one time in prison. He stabbed another inmate in the eye But that didn't happen. He just quietly served his time and

honestly he hung out with nobody in prison. He didn't have any friends. So after he gets out he starts hanging out a lot with these two guys named Gilbert and Tony Melandas and it was the Melandas brothers. They were wild these brothers. Gilbert had been a runaway since he was 16 years old, and he had a very scary criminal record. He was charged with assault, with intent to murder. He literally shot someone in the head. He started influencing his little brother, Tony, to start committing crimes with him. It'll be fun, he said.

So anyways, the brothers become close with David Spence, and they think he's a cool guy. Why you ask? Because he would always force his girlfriend to sit next to him on the floor on her knees while the boys watch TV. She would be chained to a chair with a dog leash. If she had to use the restroom, she would be forced to beg at his feet, and he would lead her to the bathroom with the leash on all fours. It just felt like he had something to prove. He only ever called her a bitch in front of the brothers, and one day his girlfriend Christy was prepping dinner for the boys David demanded that she stand up against the wall for his knife act He threw up against the wall and started throwing knives at her David had just always had issues since he was young

He had dreams of spiders crawling all over him. He was one foot deep buried in spiders And he would scream for his mom to come save him But she didn't really care She was too busy getting remarried. He hated spiders. He had a lot of fear at the same time But he also hated being alone I mean it was a lot like he's a one-of-a-b-tuff guy, but he had all these weird fears The guy's favorite hobby when he was a kid was stomping on frogs and disemboweling stray cats with a pocket knife

She yeah, this guy thought throwing knives at his terrified girlfriend was hilarious. The brothers seemed to throw it off, but they found it comical. Whenever David was mad at his girlfriend, he would force her to sleep outside in the front yard with a dog collar around her neck and tied to a tree by the leash. Sometimes he would tie her up and force her to follow the end of the rope as he slowly drove back to his house, so she's just like chasing this car. He had to hurt her during sex to climax. He would bite her all over her body, causing her to bleed.

A lot of times she was terrified that he had literally bitten off her nipple during sex. He just loved the side of blood he wanted to make her bleed it turned him on. Another time he forced her to get naked in the living room in front of the brothers so that he could have sex with her. He would hit her because she wasn't and I quote, being a good girl. And all the while, he was openly cheating on her. Sometimes he would bring back mistress' back home to rub it in her face. And that spring, Christie started working at a grocery store near the Methodist home. Meneer shop. And that's how David met Manier.

And he started hanging out there, having his eyes on Christy, making sure that she wasn't flirting with other guys because he was just that abusive. And this is around the time, like when he starts hanging out with Manier, Christy also noticed that he was developing some strange habits. Because of his fear of spiders, every night he went inspect the entire bed and the room looking for spiders, making sure everything was spider-free. Sometimes, shoot wake up to him, sitting on top of her with the flashlight on his face, laughing like a maniac chanting. She just never understood what he was even saying.

Christy was getting more and more terrified. Then one day, David asked the brothers to hang out with him to go get some beer, to see if there was any pussy hanging around the lake. That night was July 13th. out with him to go get some beer to see if there was any pussy hanging around the lake. That night was July 13th. So David is finally arrested and what's crazy is that he actually confessed to the murders to his parole officer for the past like year. No, the parole officer was like, no, went to the police and the police did not take it

seriously. To make matters worse, David and the brothers were being investigated for a different case after the Waco murders because they held a guy hostage and forced him to perform Seriously. To make matters worse, David and the brothers were being investigated for a different case after the wake-o-murtors because they held a guy hostage and forced him to perform phallacia on them, sexually assaulted him, and drowned him repeatedly in a toilet bowl. So with this and the parole officer reporting to the police that David literally confessed to the wake-o-murtors, they still were like, eh, maybe it has nothing to do with it. It's confusing, no?

So David Spence gets arrested and he is not a sharp one. He told a cellmate in jail that Manier had hired him and the brothers to kill Kenneth and Gale. So he thought Gale was Gale and Raylene just happened to be there. So this whole thing is he's trying to say that Manier was upset that Gale had rejected him, left him with this 12 months apartment lease and moved on with Kenneth, so he hired them to kill the both of them. So it's like two birds one stone, he never even liked Kenneth to begin with. David also went to tell his cellmate that the victims were tied with their own shoe strings.

One of the girls bras was around her ankle. This was not made public yet. So the police are like, okay, this isn't the strongest evidence, but we're definitely on to something. So Truman, the detective that opened the case, he starts talking to David, trying to form some relationship, like a buddy, buddy relationship, and David says, listen,

if I wanted to talk to you about something, but I didn't want to say that I'm the person that I'm talking about What do you call that? You know when like it's not for real? David, do you mean hypothetical? Yes, yes, okay, so hypothetically speaking it's like a dream and in this dream this guy Seized himself killing somebody so this guy has the girl on the floor and he's on top of her. He's over her, he's stabbing her.

And I mean, he just loses it. It's like he's not even himself anymore. He's just standing over her, watching and stabbing. And it feels like he's not even doing the killing. It's crazy, right? Wouldn't that be crazy if someone felt something like that? Like, would he be considered insane? David, I would say that there's definitely something wrong with that someone.

I mean, who kills a person like that? You know, when I had the burnette down and I was stopping her, he slipped out. He slipped from the hypothetical to the first person and then he cut the conversation short. Truman with this decided to go talk to David's mom and just like have a conversation with her. And during that time period, he kind of snooped around at David's place and found a watch with a little piece of dried blood on it, the watch belonged to Jill Montgomery. But because Truman didn't have a search warrant and he went in there wanting to talk to David's mom, it wouldn't be admissible in court. And then David went to trial for his sexual abuse charge against Danny Powers.

So this is the guy that he held hostage and drowned in the toilet bowl. So Gilbert, he pled guilty and got a seven year sentence. He's like, yes, I assaulted him and I drowned him in the toilet bowl. After that, Gilbert was ready. He was ready to confess to all the murders. He thought, you know what? Since I'm already talking, since I'm already going to prison

and since I've already had to deal with all of this trial, nonsense, and everybody's saying that I'm gonna get real time for this, I just wanna confess. Gilbert confesses. That leads to his younger brother, Tony confessing, and there is a little bit of discrepancy in both of their stories, mainly because Gilbert is trying to protect his younger brother, Tony. David, Tony, Gilbert, and Manir were all indicted for three counts of Capitol murder. The Tony Gilbert and Manier were all indicted for three counts of capital murder. I think the infuriating part in all of this is that this is one of the first leads of the police got. I mean, they really mishandle this case. How do you even not do your job to this degree?

It's baffling. So Tony was arrested and he starts singing like a Tweetybird. He immediately confessed and he said, you know, I was there. I was there the night of the crime. We were all drinking. we started looking for drugs and there were no dealers that were home, so instead we smoked pot, drove around and David wanted to go to the park.

David wanted to go to the park and he wanted to buy more beer while they were headed out there. So once they get there, they see these two girls and a boy picnicking at the park at night. And he's just staring at them. The brothers have no idea if he knows these people, who are these people, nothing. The brothers have never met these people. Anyways, David says, I know them.

Those are the ones that I told you guys about. The one that ripped off Minier, that girl over there? That's her. Gilbert's like, okay, well, what do you want us to do about it? I don't think we should go over there and talk to them then. Tony said that he was so drunk that he had no idea what was even going on He thought maybe they were gonna hang out with more friends maybe not he was just in it for the good time David walks up to the group and says hey, what are y'all up to?

Kenneth got up and said oh, we're just having a couple of beers. You're your David, right? Minier's friend Yeah, yeah, that's me. Well, how about this, guys? I've got some pot in the car. Why don't you guys come smoke some pot with us and maybe we can run to the store, buy more beer and we can come back and party it up. Jill was a little bit hesitant.

Oh, I actually have to go home soon and so does Raylene, so we might not be able to go. Oh, come on, we won't be gone for more than five minutes. Let's go. So they agree and they all pile into David's car Ray Laine and Kenneth get into the back with the brothers and at first Jill wanted to squeeze back in there But David insisted you drive shotgun like let's get into the passenger side. I'm the driver I want you in the front with me. I mean this is so creepy when you think back on Karen's vision because she saw this in the vision And as David is driving I mean the this is so creepy when you think back on Karen's vision because she saw this in the vision.

And as David is driving, I mean, the whole car is silent. He turns around to Gilbert and says, Hey, bro, this chick's got really big tits. What? Yeah, about Jill. And in the back seat, you know, Kenneth is nervous and he's kind of laughing, but more so like, what do we do? This is, I don't think we're in a good position right now. Jill was upset. She screamed, don't talk to me like that.

What? Well, you do have big tits, and he reached over, and Tony said that he just grabbed her breasts. And she started screaming, what's the matter with you? She slapped his hand away. Let me out of this car right now. This is disgusting. No, I'm not letting you out of the car,

and I'll grab one if I goddamn want to. Then Tony said, David parked the car and started pulling at her shirt. And she's screaming, trying to get out, what's wrong with you? Leave me alone, you're crazy! In the back, Ken, it started reaching forward like, hey, what are you doing? But Gilbert kept fighting him back and was, you know, making sure that he didn't get to the front. Jill kept fighting, David slapped her across the face and said, Shut the fuck up you bitch! No cunt is going to tell me what to do.

And he started driving again. When he finally parked, David opened the door and ordered everybody to get out. So they all lined up, and the whole plan was that the brothers and David, we're gonna make sure that the three teenagers did not run away. And he looked at Jill and said, You shouldn't have ripped off our friend. What? I-I don't even know what you're talking about. What friend? I don said, you shouldn't have ripped off our friend. What? I don't even know what you're talking about.

What friend? I don't know you. I don't know your friends. So it seems like David genuinely thought that she was gay. Because they looked so alike. And she's hanging out with Kenneth. And she's like, what are you saying? But of course they're not going to be like, oh, do you just look like her?

Maybe we're thinking about somebody else. At that point David pulls out a knife and tells the girls to remove their clothes. And he states, if you don't, I will kill you. Gilbert tied up Kenneth and the girls are forced to get naked while David was just maniacally laughing. He started pulling at Jill and he yelled at the rest of the guys. I'm going to go into the woods with her. Tony, you watch that guy and Gilbert, you can take the other girl. Gilbert forces Raylene back into the car, ties her up, and she's screaming, please don't hurt me, which, too, he responds. What the heck, I won't hurt you, like I'm not like that.

And then he proceeded to rip her. David ordered Kenneth to come, where he was with Jill, so that he could watch his girlfriend being ripped. He was forced to watch David not only with Jill but torture her by, you know, those superficial stab wounds of the slight nicks in her chest and on her neck. And when he was done, David told Tony it was his turn. Now, up until this point, it seemed like Tony was pretending to take like the backseat and all of this. He was actively tying them up, but I guess you wouldn't say he was the main instigator of this. But this is where I start getting frustrated. Tony said that he tried.

He tried to rip her, but he couldn't get an erection, so he gave up. That's just as bad. And then David grabbed Kenneth by the throat and called him a fucking punk and started stabbing him. Kenneth slumped to the ground and David knelt down close enough to feel every dying breath. This is what Tony said, that David was just fascinated by the process of death and he stayed there until there was no more movement in Kenneth's body. David took Gilbert back to where he left Jill and Gilbert went to Jill as well. And when he was done, David got back on top of Jill and said, now I'm going to get even with you. And he started poking her at first, again, torturing her with that

little knife. And then he started to plunge the knife deeply into her chest. But the way that he was doing it, and it's so evil, was that he wasn't in a frenzy. He would stab her in the chest, take the knife out, and pause, and stare at her face, make eye contact, and then stab to her again, and then pause. It's like he was enjoying it. He wanted it to last longer. He wanted to make the pain and suffering as long as possible. That was his ultimate goal.

So now that Kenneth and Jill were both dead, Raylene did not know the fate of her friends. She was near the car and had, I mean, she was terrified. She had just been sexually assaulted, but she had no idea that her friends were dead. The guys dragged her out of the car and David said, now it's your turn and started stabbing her all over the chest. He went as far to get a stick wrapped in electrical tape and he assaulted Raylene's corpse with it. So it, I mean, it's unclear if this is like a sick twisted thing that he did or if maybe he was trying to get rid of DNA evidence, I'm not entirely sure.

They then proceeded to steal all the cash on the teenagers and drove, put the bodies back into the car by the way, drove to another park to dispose of their bodies, so they didn't want their bodies to be found so close to Rayleigh's car. So they could be like, oh, what are you talking about? Yeah, we did go to the park, but we went to Lake Keeho Park or whatever, but they were there so it can't be us. When they were putting Ken's body in the middle of that little small dirt road,

they laughed at how they were gonna put his sunglasses back on and they said, and I quote, man, they're gonna freak out when they find this dude sitting under that tree with his sunglasses on. They then proceeded to throw a couple of items into the local lake, they threw a screwdriver and Raylene's glasses. Gilbert at this point started freaking out, like, man, I don't know what's going on, I'm gonna get my shit and get out of town, I can't do this anymore.

David told him, calm down! Besides, nobody's gonna know what happened but us, they're dead. They can't say anything, dead people can't talk. Besides, we're never. They can't say anything dead people can't talk. Besides, we're never going to talk about it. So David goes back home to his girlfriend, Christie, and he was drunk. He slapped her around because she started asking questions of like, where the hell were you? And then they had sex and afterwards, David went back out with different friends, and he took them to the same bench that the teenagers had just

been peacefully sitting on hours ago. Before he killed them, before he approached them, he just sat there giggling, talking, drinking his beer, not a care in the world. It's said that during the trial, David's teeth and his dental records match the bite marks that were on the two girl victims. So David was found guilty on all three counts of capital murder. He showed no emotion, even when they said that he was eligible for the death penalty, no emotion. Psychology stated that David had a severe personality disorder.

He was a sociopath. Their outlook was grim, they said, and I quote, there is no chance at all of his behavior changing for the better. This severe personality type is limited to a very few people, fortunately. It's got nothing to do with mental illness, but it is a personality disorder. The only change in its personality is going to be for the worse.

Though I don't see how it could get worse, people like this act from an urge of no connection to property or people, they will do anything to serve that urge. They are their master manipulators, con artists, they never learn from an experience or even from severe punishment. We believe as psychologists that David even mocked up in prison will be a threat to society without question. So with that David was sentenced to death. Soon after while in prison David's mother was brutally murdered in her own house. She died from a violent beating and the sick irony was that she was found with bite marks all over her body. And who's the killer? So they did convict them. Well, they

indicted two people for her murder and they said that they had nothing to do with the lake wake of murders. Just a coincidence. Yeah. The brothers pled guilty in exchange for life in prison and they avoided the death penalty. Gilbert would die in prison. Tony would spend 30 years in prison before he died and he said that he spent 30 years in prison for a crime he was unjustly convicted of. He said, I wasn't a good guy but I didn't kill anyone. I've paid for the bad things that I did. He said that none of his public defenders, you know, listened to him. Not once did they encourage him to fight for his innocence. They just told him, if you go to trial you're gonna get the death penalty.

He said that the cops questioned him for two weeks, and they kept saying, tell us the truth. You did it. We know you did it. You're going to die for it. So let us help you get out of death row. Tony died in 2017 from bone cancer and kidney failure. Manier D was found guilty and sentenced to death.

He spent his time on death row studying law. He presented his own five-hour presentation for his appeal and his capital conviction was overturned. He was granted a new trial and they found him not guilty. I mean, the case against him had always been pretty witness heavy. There was no physical evidence, really. I mean, I guess that there were allegations that he was paying the guys to kill the three of them, but that didn't make sense. I think with this, Meneer probably has the other three. I mean, they were there. They confessed to it at least, but Meneer wasn't even there.

So it's all very complicated. After he was freed, he even went to Vienna for the United Nations World Conference on Human Rights. Life magazine profiled him in an article of people who had been wrongly convicted, and he filed a $10 million lawsuit against the Sheriff's Department and the DA's office. It caused quite a bit of stir. So there's a group of people that think that Minier is absolutely innocent, and because he was of Middle Eastern to San, he was Middle Eastern, the justice system was being racist,

and while I do agree that all of that exists, I wouldn't say that he's necessarily like the best person in the world. I do think that there wasn't enough evidence to build a solid case legally speaking. Even if morally, ethically, emotionally, we feel different, I do think like legally speaking, it was kind of a weird case. I don't think that it was rock solid, for sure. But then he was re-arrested for receiving and concealing stolen property. I think that thing is, Manir is not a great person.

I don't think he's admirable. I don't think he's someone that you want to put on posters everywhere and boycott specific things and use him as the martyr. But I do think that out of the rest of the guys, he was probably the least involved. Might not have even known what was going on. Afterwards, he seemed to live a normal life and he passed away from cancer. probably the least involved. Might not have even known what was going on. Afterwards he seemed to live a normal life and he passed away from cancer. Now there is a ton of controversy on how this investigation was handled though. I mean, why was it suspended?

And then Truman was under fire because a ton of people came forward to say that he was someone who offered you special things if you testified. He would even feed you very specific information to secure a testimony or a witness statement or a confession. Then it was later decided that the bite marks on the girl's bodies were heavily debated. Even the original medical examiner went back and said, oh yeah, never mind, those are not bite marks. So the problem with that is that David's entire trial

really centered around the fact that his dental records matched the bite marks. Now, this isn't to say that David didn't do it. It's not to say that the brothers didn't do it either or that they're even good people. Because, sure, they could have not done it, but they could be the worst people in the world, which I mean, they were not good people.

But it's just something to think about. I think what's more is how close to the truth Karen's whole vision was. Yeah, what is that all about? There is no answers. I mean, that's how she genuinely says it. close to the truth Karen's whole vision was. Yeah, what is that all about? There is no answers. I mean, that's how she genuinely says it. This is something that has been happening my entire life.

I can't give you a reason or an explanation or anything. It's odd because I especially, I am against psychics in the true crime world. I think psychics are great. I think that there is a huge space for them. And most people mean very well. But I think in the true crime world, when people go missing, when there's not hard facts, it's so sad to see someone in grief and be like, Oh, don't worry. Your daughter's going to come back. Like, that seems horrible. That seems horrendous.

It's just seems speculatory. But this one made me rethink my whole life. I'm like, wait a minute. This doesn't even make sense. I wonder how much of it was kind of tinkled with in her memory after the crime though. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, where did that story come from? Is it from the police? That guy from Officer Ronnie. And they also said that she, most of the cops, were terrified of her. They said that she was just so spooky. So it seems like there was some reason that they were scared of her. Like, it doesn't seem like she's out of her marbles and Making stuff up by herself But I wonder how much of it is true of like oh this is a genuine vision versus how much was added to the story after the fact after the

Investigation to I don't know make it a crazier story What are your thoughts and I hope you guys enjoyed this week's main episode and I will see you guys on Sunday for the mini-sode. Bye And I hope you guys enjoyed this week's main episode and I will see you guys on Sunday for the mini-sode. Bye!