Rotten Mango - #212: The Police Sex Cult That Sacrificed 25 Babies During Rituals

Episode Date: November 6, 2022

The Ingram house from the outside, would have presented itself as the dream life for a family. Situated on a beautiful ranch, with a vegetable garden out back, it was superbly normal. That is till Paul Ingram, the father and police officer, was accused of assaulting his two daughters since they were 5 years old. Not only that, but he would bring over cop buddies to assault not just his daughters but his young sons too. The explosive allegations came out back to back. There were poker parties/gang assault parties, hooded figures performing rituals, and over 25 babies being sacrificed to Satan himself. This was the biggest allegation of police officers being involved in a sex Satan cult that had ever been raised. But was it true? Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rambles. Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are, whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or pay to description starting at 12.99 per month. Better being better boo. Welcome to this week's mini-sode of rotten mango. I'm your host Stephanie Sue.

This episode is going to be so crazy. I don't even know what to tell you. I'm just gonna jump in. The Ingram House from the outside would have presented itself as the dream, the ideal paradise for children. Paul Ingram, the dad, was a police officer at the Sheriff's Office, and the mom Sandy, she's a homemaker. So the children, they've got this big ranch-style house. They have a vegetable garden in their backyard. They even have chickens, small farm animals. I mean, this place was picture perfect,

but it wasn't. I know what you're thinking. Oh my God, they're cheating. It's gonna be an affair. These kids aren't his. There's abuse somewhere. Not that simple. It's not that simple.

This is one of the wildest cases that I've researched in a while, in the sense that literally what is going on, it's absolute unhinged insanity from the get-go. After 22 and 18 long years in the Ingram House, the two Ingram daughters, Erica and Julie Ingram, decided to come forward with their allegations of abuse. Apparently in the perfect Ingram House, there was a satanic cult filled with members of the local police department and other parents and high-powered politicians in the area that would hang out under the disguise of Poker

Knights, but instead they would take turns. These police officers would take turns repeatedly breaking the Ingram daughters while Paul Ingram himself either joined in or just watched from the side. Julie said, I can remember when I was four years old, he had this poker game at our house, and a lot of men would come over and play poker with my dad. They would all get drunk, and one or two at a time,

they would come into my room and have sex with me. They would be in and out all night, laughing, and cursing, and I was so scared I didn't know what to do, or what to say, or to who to talk to. Julie's sister, Erica, in Grim said said similar things happened to her during the poker games, but they took it a step further.

Her dad and his police officer buddies would further humiliate her by urinating on her, defecating on her, and then passing her around like a commodity to be re-insatimized further. She said it all started when she was around five. She said her parents even assaulted her with inanimate objects, and when she was 12, she would essentially be gang-rooted by Paul's cop buddies. She claimed that they used various sexual toys on her like bondage devices, leather belts.

Someone was always there to take photographs. Sometimes she was gagged or whipped. She remembered being threatened by guns and knives. She described orgies in the woods, essentially gang-roaves in the woods. But it wasn't just the Ingram daughters who were allegedly traumatized. Paul Jr., the oldest son in the Ingram family, said, once when I was 10 or 11 maybe, I heard this muffled cry, oh, miss like a, like a yelp, you know when you step on your dog's

tail, that sound? Yeah, and I heard that and I went downstairs to investigate cause we didn't have a dog that we could step on. I saw the door to my parents bedroom was open just a tiny little crack. I peeked in, I don't know why, I just stood. And I saw my mom tied to the bed, spread eagle. She had belts holding down her feet and stockings tying her arms up. Jim Rayby, dad's cop friend, was quote, screwing her, and dad

had his quote, dick in her mouth. There were a few other cops on the side, and they were just quote, jacking each other off. Clearly Paul Jr. was traumatized, and he gasped for he made some sort of noise that indicated that he was there. So Paul, his dad walked over, smacked him square across the face, so hardly almost knocked him out, and told him, go upstairs. Now, Paul Jr. said that night he turned to alcohol for the first time because of how traumatizing that was. Paul, the father, told another story of an incident that happened in the house. At this point, the guy is confessing. He said,

I was home with Paul Jr. and my other son, Chad. And Sandy, my wife, was out shopping with the girls. It's maybe seven or eight at night, dark out, that's for sure. When the boys, Jim Rayby and Ray Rish, you know, my friends, fellow officers, they came over, and since Sandy was in home, they wanted to have sex with my boys. We all went to the main floor of the house, and my son's undressed. I don't remember if they undressed themselves, or we undressed them, but they did get undressed. Ray had his work clothes on, clean overalls and work boots, he and Jim undressed. I don't remember what Jim had on. Anyway, Ray knelt on the floor and sat with my eldest

Paul Jr. and had my son lean over to stimulate his penis orally. At the same time, Jim was fondling Paul Jr. while trying to sodomize Chad, my other son. Chad was probably eight at this point. Paul Jr. 1112. And then out of nowhere, Sandy came home and I think she, you know, she was early, she had on a coat, she was carrying all the little sacks and bags and the girls were behind her. She kind of said, hi before she realized what was happening. She probably dropped the sack and got you know, very angry. I don't recall the words that she said, but I do recall that she was very upset, very angry. Jim Ray be grabbed her by the hair and very forcefully,

very angryly, almost vicious. He said, If you can't do anything for us, if you say anything, Paul, your husband's gonna go to jail and your family will be shamed from the community and I'll kill the kids. Paul said at this point he and his cop buddies Jim and Ray took his wife downstairs tied her up to a bed frame spread eagle and viciously ripped her and at the end they threatened to kill Sandy again if she told and apparently after the assault Sandy was sobbing in the bed asking her husband why and Paul responded

why is I into contract? I promised secrecy, and I said I wouldn't reveal anything about the group. What are you talking about? What group? The cult. The police member filled satanic cult. What? Yeah, Paul said he remembers a ritual where he and his cop buddies and other high-powered officials ran these like long robes kneeling around a fire. There was one person in the group that was wearing a hooded robe, it was red,

like that blood-colored red. Paul thought it was the devil. The devil was amongst them. They were looking into the fire chanting. Before Paul was handed this large knife and he was told to sacrifice this black cat that's fully alive. Paul remembers slowly cutting out the beating heart while the cat is yelping and scratching and thrashing around, and at one point he held the heart in the tip of his knife. Before he and the rest of the group devoured it.

Did he ate it? Yeah, and if you're wondering how this all started, it might have been Ray's girlfriend. Apparently, Ray's girlfriend, let's call her Vanessa, was a high priestess of a cult. Raise a cop, right? He's a mechanic that works for the patrol. Yeah, so he's like involved with the cops. Okay. Yeah, but, um, Jim is a cop and Paul is a cop. Now, Paul remembers having sex with Vanessa

after one of the black cat ritual sacrifices. They had sex and a barn and Vanessa forced him to sign a blood oath, pledging loyalty to the cult, and promising to let the cult do anything to him, to his family, without question. Otherwise, his children could be killed. So that's when the children start getting involved in the quote, cult sacrifices. carried into a barn where there was a table and a fire, a group of people gathered around the table. Her dad is wearing this strange hat. It looked like a Viking hat with horns. There's blood everywhere, pitchforks everywhere, and the sacrifice was on the table.

It wasn't a cat. It was a baby. Like, six, eight months old. What? They would place the baby on the table and everyone would pick it up and chant while they pass it around from one person to another and then another, and then when they were done, they put the baby back on the table and everyone would pick it up and chant while they passed it around from one person to another and then another and then when they were done they put the baby

back on the table and took turns stabbing at it until it was dead. Sometimes even after it was dead they would just all chant and keep stabbing. Then sometimes they would pick up the dead baby and literally rip it to shreds and consume pieces of its flesh or they would just dig a hole in the ground and bury the baby. Erica said that she saw about 25 babies being sacrificed. They were all typically 6 to 8 months old. Sometimes the cult used aborted fetuses, but even more shockingly, Erica said that she felt pregnant as a sophomore in high school, and the cult aborted her baby by tying her

down to this sacrifice table table using a coat hanger to dig out and extract the fetus and then including her parents they chopped her fetus up to pieces and rubbed it all over her body and then they started to consume parts of her dead fetus But there's more Erica wrote her friend in a letter and it read my father made me perform sexual acts with animals, including goats and dogs. He would make me fondle their genitals first. Sometimes I was on my hands and knees.

Sometimes I was lying down. He would bring the animals to me and have them perform oral licking to my genitals. Sometimes I was on my period, sometimes not. Then my father would force me to have vaginal intercourse with the animals. He took photographs. My mom was also present and also had intercourse with the animals. Julie, the other ingramed daughters, said, One time when I was 11, my mom opened up my legs and pushed something inside of my private

area. Later when she left, I removed it. It was the arm of a dead baby that she had put inside of me. Listen, these are some of the most explosive allegations that I've heard in a really, really long time. So let's get into it. As always, full show notes are available at rottingapodcast.com and probably the best source, resource of anything on this case. By far, it's going to be the book called Remembering Satan by Lawrence Wright. What's interesting about this whole case in general is that it was so explosive back when it happened. I mean, everyone was talking about it, and then everyone just collectively was like,

okay, I'm over it. Let's never revisit this case or ever talk about it again, okay, bye. Which is creepy. So this book is probably the most comprehensive account of the story and it's incredibly detailed. I do feel like most of the time the author did try their best to present the evidence in an unbiased way and if anybody is interested in like the psychology behind this case, start with the book. It goes in depth. There's a ton of expert opinions. Now with that being said, let me read you one of the most alarming letters that I have ever read in my entire freaking life. It was considered a letter slash confession at the time, but later it would be a breakthrough puzzling moment in this case, which is why I'm reading it to you because it's so graphic

I almost feel like I don't want to read it out loud, but the letter is incredibly pivotal in all of this. It was titled Day Time, Probably Saturday or Sunday afternoon. In Erica's room, bunk beds for the girls. Erica had the top bunk, Julie had the bottom bunk. Erica and Julie share the room. It's written by Paul, by the way. I ask or tell Paul, Jr., and Erica,

both who are my children, to come upstairs. So he asks his son and his daughter and they're both biologically full-blooded sisters and brothers, right? To come to his room or to come to Erico's room. They go into Erico's room and Paul continues. At close the door and tell them we're gonna play a game. I tell them to undress.

Erico says, but dad, and I say, just get undressed and don't argue. From either my tone or the way I say it, neither of them objects, and they start undressing themselves. Did they say objects and they start addressing themselves. Wait, did they say how old they are? Oh. And the letter or no?

Erica is like 12, um, Paul Jr. is maybe 14. From my tone, the way that I say it, neither objects and they address themselves. I'm probably blocking the doors so that they can't get out. Erica is like 12, bodily body is fairly well developed. Paul has some pubic hair. I tell Erica to kneel and caress Paul's genitals. And just another reminder, Erica is his daughter. Paul drew near to his son, their each other siblings.

So he's essentially forcing his children to have sexual intercourse in front of him so that he can watch. He continues, when the penis is erect, I tell her to put it into her mouth to orally stimulate him. I also tell her to continue using her fingers.

I have her also run her tongue along his penis. When Paul has an orgasm, I have Erica hold it in her mouth to continue stimulation. I tell her to swallow the sperm, but she runs to the bathroom and spits it out. I tell her to get back into the room and tell her that sperm is protein and it won't hurt her. I have Erica lie back down on the floor. I tell Paul to kneel over her and rub her vagina gently with his fingers. I also tell him to caress and touch her breasts. When he has a full erection, I tell him to enter Erica and complete the sex act.

And again, the only reason that I'm reading this letter is because it becomes really important to this case. Like this, this letter is the make it or break it in this case. When they are finished, I have Erica clean up and tell her to come back to the bedroom. I address her and tell her to have Oral sex with me. She does what I tell her to, that is to stimulate me with her fingers tongue and mouth until I come.

I tell her to catch the sperm in her mouth. She can swallow or spit. I believe she spits in the bathroom. I have her lie on the floor. I caress her breast in vagina and probably orally caress her vagina. I have vaginal sex with her. Paul Jr. watches all of this. If she did not have an orgasm, I would have stimulated her with my fingers afterwards, until she did.

I may have told my children that they need to learn the sex acts and how to do them right. That's important, that each participant have a pleasurable experience. I may have anal sex with Paul. Not real clear. At other times, I have had anal and oral sex with him. We all get dressed and I ask, now you both enjoyed that, didn't you? Neither of them looked me in the eye, nor did they say anything. I say, you might as well enjoy it. We need each other. There's no reason to fight it. Paul goes downstairs. I go to my bedroom to clean up and Erica stays in her room. Sandy, which is my wife, and the rest of the children are downstairs. I go

to Sandy in the kitchen and I kiss her as if nothing has happened. Nothing is said about what just happened. I don't think Sandy is aware of the situation. The ability to control Paul Jr. and Erica may not come entirely from me. It seems there is a real fear of Jim or someone else. Someone may have told me to do this with. It seems there is a real fear of Jim or someone else. Someone may have told me to do this with the kids. That is a feeling that I have. Okay, first of all, the letter itself sounds like the plot of a horror movie

or like someone trying to write a horror movie script, but it's not even a horror, it's just straight abuse and sick and twisted. But also, what does the last statement mean? Someone may have told me to do this. This is a feeling that I have. It just sounds so dark and sinister. What the hell does it mean?

But then there was another letter that changed everything. So this is a letter from Paul, correct? Now, Julie claimed that her father sent her a scathing letter threatening her to retract her abuse claims against her father and the cult. It read, her, she wants to die now. You do realize that there are many people who want to see you dead, and a few that are hunting for you. Signed your ex's father, Paul. I mean, more reason that Paul Ingram is guilty, right? Well, not exactly. It was written in Julie's handwriting. Julie had sent this letter to herself. So this case is turning completely

insane at this point, and for a lot of reasons, this case is well known as the strangest mass false memory case. Meaning that people suspect no crime ever took place. However, a whole entire family started to remember crimes that never took place. They just started imagining it. What? That's the speculation. What? Even the perpetrators who have nothing to gain from quote remembering these memories, they

start remembering them out of nowhere. It's really bizarre, so buckle up. Heart to Hearts was the highlight of Carlos' year. I mean, literally, her entire year was centered around this big annual retreat. It was her time to frickin' shine. You're like, what's hard to heart? It's the annual Christian Girl camping retreat sponsored by the powerful influential church of living water. Young Christian girls from all over the West Coast flocked to Washington to partake

in this retreat. It's held at Black Lake and it is like the event of the year. They're singing, there's dancing, connecting, Bible study, reading. People feel reawakened in Christ after this event. And Carla was gonna be a part of it. She wasn't just attending though, she was going to speak there. She had been handpicked, chose it to talk to the girls about their faith,

their relationships, their modesty, their personal growth. I mean, it's a huge honor that Carla had every intention of fulfilling to the greatest degree. And there was no doubt that she would. Carla was a multifaceted, multi-talented woman. For one, she was an actress. She had started a few sitcoms and even some TV commercials. But more importantly, Carla had a gift.

She was able to communicate with the Holy Spirit. She could channel the power of spiritual discernment, which is just a fancy way of saying that she had visions, or at least claiming that she had visions. It wasn't divination, though, like she couldn't see into the future. She wasn't like a prophet, I guess. But Carla claimed that she could quote, read people and glimpse into their darkest fears or their traumas.

How old is she? Probably early 20s, yeah. And if you hear any sass in my voice, it's not because I have anything against religion, I just have some religious trauma where a pastor literally embarrassed me in front of a whole group and made me cry because I was reading Harry Potter. Yeah, but you're telling. Yeah, oh, there's so much more. That's just like the tip of the iceberg of my religious trauma

But you're telling me I can't read Harry Potter and this girl is having visions. I'm just saying it's giving that so raven right So she's having these visions and she's she can see people's darkest fears and traumas an extraordinary gift They said Carla would travel from youth group to youth group to talk to Christian girls and women about their face. Usually her audience consisted of like 60 or so teenage girls and other fellow counselors. Some of the girls in the group at this particular retreat, heart to heart, was deaf. They were hearing impaired. So Carla spoke and they had two counselors interpreting her words to the girls. Paula Davis and her good friend, 22-year-old Erica Ingram.

So Paula and Erica and really everyone there that day worked just collectively mesmerized by Carla. Carla had this stage presence, this magnetizing charisma and confidence. And what are the wildest parts during the retreat was when Carla fell into this almost translike state. And she started experiencing her visions. She started speaking in accordance with what the Holy Spirit was urging upon her. She said, I see, I see a little girl hiding in a coat closet. There's a little crack of light under the door.

Footsteps are approaching, getting louder, and there's a key. It sounds like it's locking the door. The little girl is trapped. While Carla spoke, a girl in the audience broke out into sobs. She stood up. Her chest was heaving and she was practically choking on her tears. That's you saw me. I was that little girl. The crowd watched the scene unfold in confusion and awe and fear. And they were like, oh my god, Christ is in the room. How did Carla know? That was crazy.

So the sentiment was clear. The Lord was working in mysterious and powerful ways that night, which by the way, all of this, I have no problem with. I do feel like it's more of a numbers game, you know? Like how many young girls have been abused and traumatized way too many? That should be the focus of the conversation.

So I feel like to stand up there and be like, I see a young girl abused. It's like every girl is gonna stand up, no? But then um, then it gets weird, okay? Then it gets really gray area so just hold on. Then Carla had another vision. There is someone in the audience that has been molested as a young girl by a relative. Again, kind of a numbers game and that is a conversation we should have, right?

And suddenly, one of the hearing impaired girls rushed out of the room, Erica and Paula rushed out after her to make sure that she was okay. They found her in the bathroom, headed in the toilet trying to drown herself. And in this highly emotionally charged atmosphere, girls started standing up one by one coming forward to say that they too had been sexually abused. I mean, it was shocking. Girl started standing up one by one coming forward to say that they too had been sexually abused. I mean it was shocking. The sheer number of girls who had been abused. But also, the camp knew that they had to do something about it.

Like they had to provide support and love for these girls right now. And they had to protect these girls so it wouldn't happen again. But they're all going home tomorrow. Like this is the last night. Now it's not uncommon for allegations of abuse to come out during these types of retreats because you know, you feel safe, you feel supported, you feel finally free. A few years back, even Erica Ingram had come out with her own allegations of abuse. She was 17 years old, and she said that this creepy married man was trying to sexually assault her. The situation was rightfully escalated.

Erica was interviewed by a sex crimes detective from the Sheriff's Office. Jim Rayby. What? And he's like, tell me what happened, Erica. It's okay. Well, this man, this married man, gave me a right home and he put his hand on my knee. And there was just a lot of strong sexual undertone to it. The problem was that it didn't go further than this.

So Jim felt like there was no grounds to prove that this even happened. You know, he can't even prove that this man put his hand on her knee, and even if he did, it's not really going to be the priority of the prosecutor to go after this man when there are literal children being raped, you know, and they still don't go after those criminals. So Jim decided there were no grounds to pursue an investigation, and the case was closed. Then a few years later, Erica's sister Julie came forward at the heart to heart to say that she had been sexually abused by a neighbor. The camp alerted Julie's parents, the Ingrams, and they swiftly took action. Julie talked to the local police and the prosecutors and filed a complaint.

But because the prosecutors found Julie Ingram quote, uncooperative, whatever that means, they decided to drop all the charges. And now, with Carla on the stage and the retreat had their hands full with an unprecedented number of sexual abuse allegations, the counselors are scrambling to figure out what the hell to do next. But this incident brought up something in one of the counselors. Erica Ingram. When all the girls had gone to their rooms for the night and all the hectic energy had died down and it was just the the counselors. Erica Ingram. When all the girls had gone to their rooms for the night

and all the hectic energy had died down and it was just the camp counselors, Erica crumbled onto a heap on the floor, had her head hanging between her knees, and the other counselors were like, Erica, what's wrong? Are you okay? She refused to tell them what was wrong.

Eventually, they stopped asking and they just rallied around her trying to show that they're comforting her. They would occasionally pat her on the back to show support. And now there's two versions of events going forward. Two different counselors had two very different versions of events. One counselor said, finally, Erica declared, I have been sexually abused by my father. And the words sounded to just rip right through her heart.

She sounded utterly devastated. Now Carla has a different version of events. She said, no, no, no, that's not how it happened. Erica was breaking down. She became unresponsive. I started to pray over her. And as soon as I started to pray, I felt this vision coming on. It was as if the Lord was telling me what was wrong with Erica and telling me how to help her. The word molestation kept popping up in my head. So I announced it. You have been abused as a child, sexually abused. Erica kept crying quietly. She was unable to respond. Carla closed her eyes and more came

flooding out. Spire father. Spine happening for years. And when she said this, Erica started to sob hysterically. Carla bowed her head and started to pray for the Lord to heal Erica. Carla claimed Erica never said a word. She was so devastated with the reality that all she could do was nod her head in acknowledgment, acknowledgment of the truth of what had happened. This would be the very moment that would spiral into one of the most bizarre, intense, scandalous, sex rings, sacrifice rings that we have ever heard of in the history of any of this. Like, it's so wild, and it's debated if there's any truth at all to the allegations.

A majority of people say, yeah, no, no truth. Some say, well, maybe not all the way true, but there must be some truth, right? Should we explore that annoying saying that I really don't agree with, but for the purpose of today's episode, we need to see where there's smoke, there's a fire. Were the ingrams hiding a fire? Perhaps the fire of Satan himself?

Let's explore. The ingram family started with Sandy and Paul ingram. The two met young. They fell for each other fast and hard They met while they were in college and Sandy said that she just had this instant connection with Paul This spark that drew her to him to her. It seemed like everything in the world they had in common They just connected. They understood each other. You're like, what are they having in common? They both work hard. They pay for their own two wishes and and they both come from devout Catholic backgrounds, like I'm talking devout.

Sandy went to a con-convent school and seriously considered becoming a nun. Paul considered becoming a minister, so they're like really hardcore. This is not just, I got a church on Sundays. Paul kind of had a rough childhood. The type that makes you grow up a little fast. He was the oldest of seven children. His dad had suffered this crazy back injury. He can't work. So his mom is a single mom, just constantly working. Nobody was left to watch the kids, but Paul. So since the age of 10,

he's taken on the responsibility feeding the kids, doing the laundry, like doing all of that. A lot of kids probably would have felt really bitter, really pissed off. Like, why can't I go run off and hang out with the kids and why can't I just be a 10 year old? Paul took it like a champ. He was always described as caring and self-sacrificing and never showed any resentment towards his family. I mean, this really wooed Sandy, the fact that he was so responsible.

So after a few dates, Sandy decided, that's the man for me. She was his first real girlfriend, he was still a virgin, so they started moving fast. After just 5 months of knowing each other, they decided to get married. They're 19. Everyone's like, no, no, no, no, no, whoa, you've known each other for like 5 whole seconds, you're 19, I get it, you probably want to have sex now, but you should wait, you should wait to get married, how do you know you're the right one? But they got married anyway.

And seven months later, everyone's like, oh, okay. Because they gave birth to Paul Jr. Yeah, you're doing the math. I did the math. Uh-huh, premarital sex back at it again, okay. It's a trend. I mean, it's clear why they were in such a rush

to get married, considering they live in a vehemently Catholic community. Like, can you imagine having a child out of wedlock? I mean, so what do why they were in such a rush to get married considering they live in a vehemently Catholic community Like can you imagine having a child out of wedlock? I mean, so what do you do at that point at that point? You're like praise the Lord Nobody cares. No, everyone's trying to be like Oh, don't do the math Maybe it's a preemie. Maybe it's a miracle. Yeah, it's miracle So happen I don't know where we never even had sex even after marriage

So Sandy was excited about the baby. She just wanted this big family, so she starts popping them out one by one. Right after Paul Jr., they had Andrea and Erica. They were twins. Erica was a perfectly healthy baby, but Andrea's immune system was not well developed, and at just a few days old, had spinal meningitis which is a very serious bacterial infection of the spinal membrane. Andrea survived but she had permanent brain damage. She would be mentally impaired for the

rest of her life. Her school was permanently enlarged from the swelling from the meningitis. So what did the family do? Do they pray about it? Listen I'm getting snarky because these people are annoying. But um okay I get it. Andrea is constantly sick. She's in and out of the hospital for other health related concerns. She needs round the clock care. I get it. It's not an easy life. I have so much sympathy and respect for parents with children who are not as healthy as they wish them to be. But the Ingrams did something pretty cruel. They just had baby Andreja institutionalized, where she would stay for the next 17 years before she died just before her 18th birthday.

The worst part is, I don't think her family visited her much. They just were like, okay, that's out the way, let's just make new kids. If we can't take care of a sick one, we can make a healthy one. They just popped out new kids and forgot about her. Soon after, they had chat, and Paul was working as a traveling salesman at this point, so the couple agree, you know, it's a little bit rough. You're traveling all the time. You're not making enough money to support the growing family.

We got to settle down. So he gets this reliable job as a field investigator at a big corporation. And with that, they buy a ranch-style home to live in with their growing family. But let me tell you, they're not living large. They had a lot of mouths to feed, so they were pretty neglectful of the children, okay? They decided to then have another child. So in the house we've got Paul Jr., Erica, Chad, and now Julie, and they're all living on this ranch, and like, you know the way I was describing it, you're like, oh my god, perfect

lives, are you kidding? Like I get it, it's rough, financially strafery cash, but a ranch? They had this cute vegetable garden in the back. They had all these cute animals, rabbits, chickens. They would get fresh eggs from the chickens every morning. Their goal was to finally get some cows in there one day. They did get the cows later. They loved the idea of being as self-sufficient as possible.

Which like amazing, amazing dream, American dream, really. But because Paul was so busy with his job, and Sandy was running a daycare out of their house for extra money, the kids were left to take care of the ranch. They were left to take care of the garden and the small farm animals, and the parents felt like it was a good thing. They're like, you're getting the job done, and we're teaching you the concept of responsibility.

But the children felt like, no, this is not responsibility. Doing the dishes of responsibility. But the children felt like, no, this is not responsibility. Doing the dishes is responsibility. We are your unpaid workers. You don't even see us as kids. The oldest Paul Jr. said, the old man didn't give a shit about anybody as long as you did your chores. And it only got worse. When Paul Senior applied for the Reserve Police Department in a neighboring town, he loved it. It was like a side hustle after his insurance job. He would get into a patrol car and just indulge in authority and power, just driving around. It was really tickling his pickle, okay?

I just get the vibe that Paul didn't want to be home, if I'm going to be honest, because he was like absolutely never home, ever. What if comparing car insurance rates was as easy as putting on your favorite podcast? With Progressive, it is. ever. you like. Quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 29 million drivers who trust progressive. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates comparison rates not available in all states or situations prices vary based on how you buy. Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs, whatever was in there. Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?

What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?

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What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? And I know how to do it really well. This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all. Did you consider yourself a rat? 100%. I saved my soul just like everybody else does.

Listen to and follow the set, an Odyssey originals documentary podcast series available now in the Odyssey app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. I'm not a big guy, man, but I love being that dirty mother f***er. The children raised themselves. Chad said, I taught myself how to ride a bike. I taught myself how to drive. I mean, all those things that I wish that my dad was there to guide me through, he wasn't

there. He was just busy taking the police crews around on joy rights and finally Paul was offered a full-time position in the police force at the sheriff's department He was going to be making less money every month, but because it was his passion he took the job Sandy was I know Sandy was surprisingly supportive during all of this so Paul got to work His job wasn't that wild or spectacular. In fact, like the 20 years that he was a cop, he never did any investigative work, not to laugh.

But he just drove his patrol car around and handed out speeding tickets. He was the top dog for handing out traffic tickets. You could be going five over and he'll rip you a new one, a new ticket, that is. Just traffic tickets, going to schools to talk about the dangers of getting into drugs. That was about it. But he got along with the big boys. He got along with the investigators, the detectives, the interrogators, the sheriff's.

He got along with his colleagues so much that he was invited to the inner group of officers, poker games. The games rotated every week, it was a new house. And sometimes, Paul would host the poker games. I mean, every week it was a new house. And sometimes Paul would host the poker games. I mean it was very important to him that even with their tight budget he bought a refrigerator downstairs in the basement to hold the beers. But he considered it a work expense right since the sheriff would attend the games and Paul wanted to be one of the boys. The morning after poker parties the children would scour the floor under the table for any loose change that someone might have dropped.

That really was the extent of their father child bonding. Now listen, I don't want to say that I was right to judge Paul. But I was kind of right to judge Paul, because he starts cheating on his wife. Like it was a pretty long affair too, with a married woman. Eventually it did fizzle out, but Sandy had no clue. She thought her marriage was going great. They got some cows, which was exciting. Again, this is Paul and Sandy's dreams to have this ranch with all these fruit trees, vegetable farm, farm animals. But they cared very little about what their children wanted or needed. The kids lived on this

remote ranch away from all their friends. They had even more responsibilities now with the cows. I mean, it was freaking horrible. The children aren't even allowed to join any extracurricular activities at school such as sports because the parents said It's gonna take time away from the chores But Sandy and Paul are apparently big fans of the double standard because while the kids were left at home to work The couple joined the local tennis club where they played three times a week I'm so confused about this family So it's just the kids that weren't

allowed to do sports. Okay, great. Now, a neighbor observed that the kids were still very well-mannered. They didn't seem resentful. They never acted out. And even though everyone knew that the ingrams were strict, nobody ever saw any sort of abuse. There was no emotional trauma from what they could see. There was no bruising. Now that's not to say that there was no abuse taking place. It just that there wasn't evidence on their face, I guess, that they were physically being abused. I would definitely say that the kids were mentally abused to an extent. Because Paul and Sandy were weird. The two of them engaged in a boatload of PDA. Like they were super affectionate with each other,

even in front of their kids and public. They would sleep naked on their water bed together every night. I mean, they had sex every other day, which side note, how did Paul ever have time or energy to cheat on his wife? I don't know. I mean, they loved being lovey-dovey with each other. Ooi gooey just grossed with each other,

but they hated doing it with their kids, straight up withheld all emotional love from their own children. People observed that the ingrams had more of a professional relationship with their children than anything. So yeah, relationships in this household, not great. And it got worse because the ingrams just out

of frickin' nowhere were like, you know what? Forget the Catholic church. We're gonna be Christians now. Completely different religions, like just out of nowhere, they switched over to Christianity, start dishing out the religion to their kids. Paul straight up outlawed all sports games and banned rock and roll music unless it was Christian, which like, there's Christian rock and roll music.

What? Let's just say, he's not getting best at ever mugs for Father's Day. That's right, I'm sure his kids freaking hated him And then and then Sandy's pregnant yet again Listen, I know I'm really dogging on this couple but like come on They're not even treating the children that they have well So why bring another child into this world one that you cannot nourish and bring up in a home filled with love and support It's so selfish and it's gross. So they have another kid their youngest kid Mark and this is

where I get so angry. Paul decides to have this midlife crisis. He's like, wait a day a minute. I've been a bad dad. I hate being a bad dad. I don't want to keep doing this. I don't want to keep being a bad dad. But instead of making up for lost time with his kids that he already had, instead of apologizing, sitting down his copious amounts of kids and being like, hey kids, I'm so sorry for the years and years of neglect. I'm a changed man, I'm gonna do my best to make it up to you. Paul decided, no, that's annoying, that's hard.

I can be a good dad to this newborn that has no preconceived bias about me. The one that would actually call me the best dad ever without making me feel any guilt for my past wrong doings. So Paul was a good dad to baby Mark. He would read to Mark every single night. He wouldn't have buying Mark a computer and spending all night playing games with him.

I mean, it's pretty easy to understand why the rest of his kids hated him even more after they had Mark. So and he's still not spending time with the rest of his kids? Never. Yeah, Paul Jr. said this. For years, he was barely home, and now, now he suddenly wants to be a good parent, but only for Mark. Tensions got so high that Paul Jr. and Chad moved out of the family home.

Chad was kind of in and out of the house though. He would move out, get arrested for shoplifting candy, come back home, move out again. Meanwhile the girls, Erica and Julie, they weren't nearly as rebellious, so they tried to stick it out in the house. And they really leaned on each other. Erica was four years older than Julie. And she was kind of described as more of the assertive and older one, right? She would take on the lead while Julie would follow her around.

Their personalities were just vastly different. Erica was a bit more adventurous. She loved learning about new cultures, new languages. She studied sign language and even served as an interpreter for the hearing impaired. Meanwhile, Julie was just less out there. She was a homebody. Which sign note about Erica? She volunteered frequently to interpret sermons for the hearing impaired members of the congregation, and at one point, she persuaded her parents to take in two foster girls who were hearing impaired. But it turned out to be a shit show and super awkward.

Because Paul and Sandy refused to even try learning sign language. Listen, they're the type of kind of ignorant people that thought that, well, if they want to communicate with us, they should learn our language. Like, that was the vibe they were giving. Yeah, those types of people. Okay, sorry, I'm like ripping them apart for now,

but like just to clarify, again, the Ingram's parenting was super questionable, but no one close to the family ever reported any sort of physical or sexual abuse in the house. That's not to say it didn't happen, but I'm just saying, okay? Now anyway, the two foster girls would later say, yeah, that house was so full of hate.

The parents were always angry, just bickering with their own kids. Like, it was so negative. The Ingram family doctor also claimed that he never witnessed any abuse, pointing this out for later because he was their family doctor for a while, and none of the kids showed any physical or sexual abuse evidence.

So I guess you could say, the Ingrams were not great parents. They weren't even good parents, honestly, but it still came as a shock to everyone when Erica came out with her sexual abuse allegations. After the heart to heart summer camp, Erica and Julie moved out of the family home and they go to live with their friends. They did not tell their parents why they were leaving or where they were going or anything. At this point, Erica's 22, Julie is 18, so as much as the Ingrams want to call

the police and drag their daughters home, I mean, they can't. They're legal adults. They can do whatever they want. And for two months, the Ingrams had no idea what the hell is going on with their daughters. They had no idea. The allegations that were about to spin them into the international news cycle, they thought the girls were just going through a belliest phase. But all of that, the family delusions, okay thought the girls were just going through a belliest phase. But all of that, the family delusions, okay? They were thrown at the door at a local denny's. It's like an eye-hop.

Erica reached out to her mom, asking her to meet at a local denny's because she was ready to talk. Sandy thought it would be a chance to reconnect with her daughter, talk some sense in her, come back home. Were you belong, you know? But instead, Erica showed up with a friend of hers and she had this hostile energy about

her. For two hours, sitting in the greasy booth of the denies, Erica dished out shocking allegation after allegation. She told Sandy, Dad has been sexually molesting me for years since I was young. Paul Jr. and Chad molested me too. Remember those poker parties that dad had? Yeah, that's when the abuse started and it was the most frequent. After listening to Gut wrenching story after another Sandy finally asked,

Erica, why didn't you tell me sooner? Mama did tell you. I tried to tell you, you wouldn't listen. What? Sandy was so freaking confused. She went home and immediately confronted Paul and his response was weird. His response to this crazy accusation that he sexually molested his own daughters was just, I didn't touch those girls. Those girls, as if they're not his biological daughters,

I mean the whole response is just so strange. Sandy didn't quite believe him, it seemed because when Chad came home, she confronted him too. She's like, Chad, did you sexually molest your sister? And Chad's response is just so bizarre, he responded. You know I've always been a good boy, mama. What kind of response is that? So the next day, Sandy reaches out to Julian asked if what Erika was saying was true. And sure enough, Julie confirmed that she too

had been molested by her father, her older brother, since she was 13. Listen, I'm not a mom. And certainly, I'm not a mother of a daughter who just accused my own husband as sexual assault. So I have no right or authority to judge Sandy's reaction, but I would imagine, in her position, I would think, that going on vacation just would not make my to-do list. Yeah, Paul and Sandy go on vacation. I mean, I guess in their defense, it was planned in advance, but still it's so bizarre. Like, these are earth-shattering, life-crumbling accusations that are being thrown out. I mean, I guess in their defense, it was planned in advance, but still it's so bizarre.

Like, these are earth-shattering, life-crumbling accusations that are being thrown around. And you're like, well, we already paid for the tickets. They went, and it was a good decision, because the very next day after they left for vacation, Julie went to the police station for an interview. Meanwhile, Paul and Sandy are sunbathing on the coast of Oregon, reading the Bible, getting a suntan, all the while their daughter is telling the police about how she had been sexually abused and she was in the fifth grade. She said, Dad would work the graveyard shift.

Come home, sneak into the room that she shared with Erica, and he would either be naked or wearing shorts or sweats, he would climb into one of the girl's beds and either rip or sodomize them. Her story was absolutely heartbreaking. She told the police that she was terrified at night, she couldn't fall asleep because she never knew if the odds were in her favor. If her dad would climb into her bed and make her do these disgusting things that night. She wrote in a letter to the police, I will never enjoy sex. I mean it hurts so bad and it makes me feel very dirty. Being a Christian I'm supposed to forgive him for what he did, but...

or what he still does to me. But it's very hard. And he says things like, if you're a good girl, God will take care of you. And if you tell someone, you will pay for it, I promise. Julie mentioned her sister, Erica, had been abused as well. So the police brought her in to question her. Erica said it was really, really bad.

She said it started when she was only five, and once I felt like I was hurt all over and when I woke up, the bed was just wet and yucky. Around this point in the interview, Erica burst into tears, ran out, rushed into the bathroom and sobbed loudly for 10 minutes. The police could hear her sobbing, it was gut-wrenching. And when she got back, she revealed more.

Just last year, she had caught an STD from her dad. The police's main concern at this point was not that they had a rapist in their uniform, but that the statute of limitations might be up, which like, okay fine, valid concern. Erica had first claimed that the last time she was assaulted was in the fifth grade, but then she said it was last year

when she maybe got the STD. So the police were worried about the statute of limitations, but not anymore because the dates have changed interestingly enough yet again. And listen, in so many sexual abuse cases, the victims will recall new tidbits of details, things that may have been repressed, or maybe because the abuse happened for so long it's hard to remember every single part of it, you know? This just didn't seem like one of those instances. And I'm going to provide more information as we go on.

And just so you know, personally, I don't know what the hell to believe. So it's not like I believe one team or the other. I'm like, oh, I believe them fully. Oh, I don't believe that I really have, I'm so confused. Because just a few days later, Erica changed her story yet again and said the last time that she was assaulted

wasn't in the fifth grade and it wasn't a year ago. It was in fact two months ago. She said she woke up and her dad was kneeling beside her bed touching her vagina. But again, it's hard to cast dad on her whole story because of a new piece of the puzzle. Like I said, it's not unusual for victims of sexual abuse to make only partial disclosures,

or maybe they recall more as they start opening up. But it was notable and kind of strange that in the span of a couple of days, Erica's timeframe of abuse had moved from one decade ago to just two months ago. This was unusual. Coupled with the fact that the girl's stories kept changing. I mean, this would normally raise alarms for the police.

Hell, the police raised their alarms, even if someone tells them everything all at once from the get-go. Like, remember the last episode? They told a kidnapping victim straight up. I mean, I don't get it, like most kidnapping victims get murdered, so like, we don't really think you've been kidnapped because why aren't you dead?

Like what? So while this is happening, Sandy and Paula are having a rough vacation. Sandy kept asking Paul, I mean, why would the girls make this up? I just don't see why the girls would make something like this up unless there's some truth to it. He kept reassuring her that nothing happened at one point he even suggested.

I don't know Sandy, maybe they're trying to break us up. Sandy's confused. I mean, but why though? Neither of them could come up with a reasonable answer. So November 28th Paul gets dressed to go to work back from his vacation and he was heading into the sheriff's office where he had worked for the past 17 years. And I guess people really do have intuition or a feeling because after breakfast he leaned over and yacked everything out of his system. He vomited everywhere. At first he thought it was the

flu but it was probably the stress and he had every reason to be. Just 15 minutes after getting to work Paul was summoned to his office where the Sheriff sat him down. Paul, there's been a problem. Are you familiar with the allegations your daughters have made against you? Yes, but I have no memory of abusing those girls. Obviously if this did happen we need to take care of it but I just I just don't see myself doing this. If I did then there must be a really dark side I don't know about. I know that's what I said. It? It's a really weird, bizarre reaction. Yeah. Like, first of all, he's referring to his own children as those girls.

And what do you mean if I did do this, there must be a dark side of me that I don't know about. I mean, truly, regardless of what you think of the allegations, that is a bizarre response. Yeah, it sounds like he's like, oh, I have another personality. Yes. Like what? And his maybe I did, maybe I didn't attitude is really disturbing.

He continued, if the charges are true, then my sons need help too. I've never thought about suicide before, but if it turns out that I have done something, I want you to get all the guns out of my house, just in case. Again, super alarming. And then he requested a lie detector test so that they could quote, get to the bottom of this.

The sheriff's like, okay, well, that's fine and all. But I really hope that you're not having the girls go through a trial. A.K.A, the sheriff is pretty much saying, handle it at home. Okay, figure this shit out and keep it on the down low. But the girls are also talking about other cops. Yeah, well not yet. Oh, okay. Oh yeah, it gets wild.

I feel like, okay, so the thing with the girls is they don't come forward with all their allegations at once. They keep adding to it as the month goes by. Yeah. And I think as they add to it, naturally their credibility goes a little bit down because it went from being very believable allegations to 25 babies are buried in my backyard because they were wearing

red hoods and sacrificing them in a satanic cult. Does that make sense? It's like, you know, it's like, whoa. Where's the evidence? Yeah. We need something. Exactly. No.

The allegations being thrown were not just at Paul, but yeah, their police officer is sure. So, you know, slowly, Paul's little thing makes headlines in the local community and beyond. Now, the police really had to start upping their interrogation skills. Their whole figure it out at home attitude just was not gonna fly. So, they brought Paul in to interrogate him and he agreed to talk without a lawyer present. He sat down with Joe and Brian Shoney. These are the detectives in charge of sex crimes.

It was pretty uncomfortable. I mean, they all knew each other really well. Their offices were right down the hall from one another. They would go to each other's houses for annual barbecues or the likes. So yeah, it's awkward. Now here's the thing about Joan, Brian. They were, I would like to believe, maybe I would like to think, good people. They took the case incredibly seriously. They were both heavily emotionally affected by this case. They both were left with night terrors for years. I mean, it really infiltrated their personal lives.

But the problem is, I think they chose to vehemently believe Erica and Julie's stories almost to a fault. And you're like, what does that mean? How can a police believe a victim so much that it's bad? Just wait. They might have single-handedly ruined the case, honestly, with good intentions. Because they went into it thinking Paul Ingram was guilty,

which I get, yes, believe the victim. But as soon as you see the problem with the way they did it, you'll know what I mean. Now, this might be a good time to clarify something. This case is widely known as a mass false memory case, meaning that the crimes alleged never happened is what people believe. But there's no way to 100% prove that. It's hard to say if they did happen to some extent but not to the extent that the girls described, or if they never happened at all, or if they happened genuinely

to the way that the girls described. It's literally impossible for me to come to a conclusion, but it is widely accepted for some reason that none of this ever happened. And for many reasons, everyone's stories kept changing to the point where it started to get fiction novel, horror movie-level status. It started getting fantastical very quickly. And since it was so much, so many allegations of buried babies in the backyard, you would think that the police would turn up a tiny shred of evidence like physical evidence But there was no evidence Before you rip me a new one

I know that most sexual assault cases are incredibly hard to gather evidence on because Reepkits are time sensitive Retraumatizing to the victim and aren't easily accessible for everyone in the world and on top of that Just the nature of sexual assault cases in crime in general people try their best to hide evidence of their crime You know the lack of evidence does not mean a crime was not committed, especially when it's alleged that there are high-powered police officers, politicians involved. I mean, who's to say that the evidence wasn't found and was just hidden? And while I get that, I don't know if any of that happened in this case, because there

just was no evidence, not at all. No babies in the backyard, no scars, no wounds, no evidence of repeated rampant sexual abuse, no evidence of illegal abortions, no videos or photos were recovered. I mean, just no evidence at all. Not even evidence of a sacrifice of like a fire taking place. No remains of a black cat anywhere, just nothing.

So I think that coupled with the constant new memories, very shady police work, I can see why everyone considers this a false memory case. The police questioning, I think, really topped it off. So let me run you through how they did it. Paul has taken in without a lawyer present. So these guys, these investigators, he's friends with them, they don't even record the first few hours of the interview. So we have no idea what was said or what happened.

And near the end, one of the officers pulls out a tape recorder and takes Paul's official statement. And out of nowhere Paul went from being like, I don't know, maybe I did, maybe I didn't, to saying, I really believe that the allegations did occur and that I did violate them. And probably for a long period of time, I've just repressed the memories. What? Why are you confessing now Paul, if you can't remember the abuse?

Well, for one, my girls know me. They wouldn't lie about something like this, and there's other evidence. And what other evidence, Paul, in your mind, what evidence would that be? I mean, the way that they've been acting for the last… least couple of years really, and the fact that I was unable to be affectionate with them, even though I want to be, I have a hard time hugging them, or even telling them that I love them. And I just know that's not natural.

Besides having a hard time being close to them, do you recall anything of a physical nature you may have done that might have been abusive, such as striking them? Whew! Why don't we call us striking the girls? I don't lose my temper very often, but occasionally I do, or they may think that I am, you know, arguing rather than conversing with them, I guess. Those may have been looked at as abuse. Okay, Paul. If I asked you, if you, and this is a yes or no answer, if you touched you li inappropriately, sexually, what would you say? I would have

to say yes. And how about Erica? Again, I would have to say yes. What would you think is the age of Erica, when these things first started happening between you and her? I can't recall myself, but I know that the age of five has come up in a couple of conversations. What do you remember? This is where it gets interesting.

With the lens that he's guilty, you could assume that his answer sound guilty. He's saying he doesn't remember, you know, maybe he's saying that because he doesn't want to get caught in a lie. He's going to be in more trouble for lie. Then others say with the lens that he's innocent, it's because, no, he probably trusts his daughters and the idea that his daughters accused him of this, he can't fathom why they would, unless there's truth to it. He's almost being gasslet with his trust in his daughters. So I don't know, it's weird. So anyway, the police were not happy about this quote confession,

so they turn off the tape recorder and go back to talking to Paul for 20 minutes. We have no idea what they talked about. They told Paul about how the girls were shattered by the abuse I'm sure, and the fact that he was denying it was probably only making it worse. I'm sure some sort of guilt trip like that. During this time, the officers noted that Paul would just start praying feverishly. Then they would turn the tape back on and Paul was staring at the wall in a translike state. And in this weird, dazed manner, he starts to confess. I went to the girls' room and I removed my bathroom. I would have removed our underpants or bottoms too.

Okay, Paul, you say you would have. Do you mean you would have or you did? I did. After you pulled down her bottoms, where did you touch her? I touched her on the breast and I touched her on the vagina. What did you say to her when she woke up? I would have told her to be quiet and not to say anything to anyone and threatened her that I would kill her if she told anyone about this? Okay, you say you would have. Is that you would have or you did?

I did. And where did you go when you left her room? I would have gone back to bed with my wife. All of this is so strange and bizarre, no. I mean, the fact that he's in a translike state is he just envisioning something and it feels so real that he's taken it as fact or is this the truth? And he's saying he would have

as if he's imagining his own fictional story, like a choose your own adventure type of game. I probably would have done this. It's so strange. But by the time that his multiple hour long interview started, Paula and Grimm had effectively confessed to having sex with both of his young daughters on numerous occasions. Starting when Erica was just five years old. There were also more explosive allegations that were

quote, confirmed. Paul said he impregnated Julie and took her to a neighboring town to get a shady abortion. She was only 15 when this happened. And by the way, all these confessions were the crimes that the girls accused him of in their allegations. So there were no new crimes, no new revelations, and a lot of the confessing happened from Joe and Brian, pressing him to say, you know, by denying this, you're making it harder for your girls. Which is a very normal police interrogation tactic, right?

But weird. Now, interestingly enough, Joe and Brian were really moved by the fact that Paul seemed remorseless and they just thought that he was nasty disturbing and guilty. So just remember that Paul is not acting normal. He's not acting like a normal guilty guy who has no remorse and is confessing because they found themselves caught.

Paul is acting weird. Just strange. After this initial interrogation, Paul was arrested, placed on a 24-hour suicide watch, isolated from the rest of the prisoners, and the next morning a psychologist by the name of Dr. Peterson, not to be confused with Jordan, but Richard Peterson, came into evaluate Paul. Paul asked some interesting questions during his session. His main focus was on, Dr. Peterson, if I've been abusing my daughters for over a decade

allegedly, how come I have absolutely no memory of it? Well Paul, it's not uncommon for sexual offenders to bury the memories of their crimes. Maybe the crimes are simply too horrible to think about, or to even consider, you're probably abused as a child, which is why you took on the role of the abuser now. But I don't recall being abused as a child. The only sex-related memory I can dig up is one time my mom told me not to scratch my crotch in public, because it was unsightly.

Well, not to worry, Paul. Your repressed memory should begin to surface once you start confessing. But, doctor, I've already confessed and I don't remember anything. Interesting, because Paul was brought in for another interview with Brian Joe and the psychologist this time. And this was mainly just to bring in more detail and clarity to the case. It was a done deal for Joe and Brian already.

He had confessed, he was a guilty son of a bitch, and that was that. But with this second interview, the whole case just got so much more confusing, because Paul would go on to implicate two more people, who the police force knew very, very well. Paul brought up the poker sessions in the interview. So the poker buddies that you played with, who are they? Friends of the department, are they in the department? He started listening in the mouth. Five or eight guys. The list was kind of ignored. There were two names that stood out to the investigators later. The two names that Paul would soon implicate. So Paul was asked,

were the kids aware of the poker parties? Oh yeah, because we played underneath our bedrooms in the basement, yeah they knew. Anybody go up to see the kids? I just can't think of any reason why anyone would. The reason I asked Paul is because Julie told me a time or two where a poker party was happening and she was molested. She was molested by someone other than you, someone else. Now just to get you up to speed, Julie said that when she was four years old, the poker

party started and all the guys would get drunk, come in and out of her room and rip her all night long. And the rest would be laughing and cursing. She said that she was terrified. Julie also claimed that Erica was seeing a doctor recently, so they weren't allowed to rape Erica. So in the same room, they just took turns on Julie. Now, Erica did not verify these claims,

even though she would have been in the same room. Julie claimed that the other poker police buddies would rape her while her father watched. So they confront Paul with this saying, Julie remembers being with someone. They were tying her on the bed to people at least. Taking turns on her while someone watched. Probably you, Paul.

Paul gasped. And he initially denied it. I just, I don't see. I just, then the police press. Okay, let me just think about this for a minute. Let me see if I can get in there. I mean, assuming it happened, she would have been in the bed bedroom by herself

for a side note. The whole Ingram family made these super long pauses during their statements. Sometimes Paul would pause for like 10 minutes at a time. Just think about that. 10 full minutes in interrogation room feels like a freaking hour. Paul would just grab his hair and fistfuls, lean forward, dead still, and just sit there for 10 minutes. The investigators pushed him while he was paused.

I mean, I guess they would just blur things like that person, that person that Melissa Julia is still out there, still on the street. This person is a friend of yours that works for this department. Apparently it's a person that's close to you, give us the name. And I don't know where Brian got this information. It's suspected that Brian really hated someone in these poker games that he really wanted someone to be guilty, and he kind of led Paul there. And if that's the case, it worked, because Paul got up and named a man by the name of Jim Raeby.

I don't know, I guess Jim Raeby played poker with us. Jim and I have been pretty close. You're like, okay, what? What does Brian have against Jim Raeby and does that impact the case? Jim Raeby was the retired cop from the Sex Crimes Unit. An interesting fact about this guy, one of his legs was one and a half inch shorter than the other as a result of a deadly car accident, but he really put his hole into his life. He had this, what do you call it, raised shoe on one of his feet so he couldn't really

run very fast, but he was a spectacular detective. He thrived in his career to the point of being the senior investigator, the head charge of the sex crimes unit. He was really passionate about his job. He lobbied to get the statute of limitations changed in the state of Washington. So originally it was three years after the crime. He lobbied to get it raised to seven years after the crime. And now he's getting accused of being. Yeah. Wow, a fender, that's crazy.

And remember, Erica's previous claims of a married man trying to sexually harass her on the drive home. It becomes him, though. No, Jim was the one that pursued the case, remember, but he eventually closed it because he felt the claim didn't have enough evidence. Well, a lot of people thought that was suspicious later on.

Because they're like, see? Anyway, Jim retired from the police force, not because he wanted to. He loved his job, but he was diagnosed with narcolepsy, which is a chronic neurological disorder that affects the brain's ability to control sleep and wake cycles. So Jim would have to take at least two naps a day.

Sometimes he would just fall asleep straight up in the middle of an interrogation, or like in an important meeting. So yeah, it was affecting his work. So rather than be fired, he retired with dignity. He was replaced by Brian Shoning and now I'm not trying to speculate, but there is a theory that's heavily implied in the book, which is that Brian and Jim had a longstanding hatred and rivalry against each other. So Paul hadn't even mentioned Jim Rabie in the list of poker player guys, but as soon as Paul mentioned it, Jim's name, oh boy, Brian and Joe just kind of zeroed

in. They like, we're like, fuck the rest of the dudes, it's Jim. They're like, is Jim the person that raped Julie? Is he the one that she's talking about? Paul is fine, just don't put words in my mouth. Jim has some I guess you could say what I consider unnatural sexual attractions What do you mean by that? We went we went on a camping trip once and Jim brought magazines And he looked at that. I Don't I don't do that kind of thing play boy. Yeah, I don't do that kind of thing Geez, I would hate to think that he had anything to do with the kids

Yeah, I don't do that kind of thing. Geez, I would hate to think that he had anything to do with the kids. So again, this is very much like that religious undertone coming out. So that's why this case is even more confusing because when they say things like, do I really have a dark side to me I don't know about or unnatural sexual preferences?

When we think of it, we're thinking, oh my God, is this guy a petal? But in the religious context, just masturbating is your center. That's unnatural. So it's very much giving, you know, this guy masturbates, and I'm against it. It just, you know, that's a sin. And then Paul paused for a very long time before saying, I'm trying to, I'm trying to bring something up in my head, you know? And I guess Jim is the only one that comes to mind. So in this picture in your head, Paul,

do you see ropes? I mean, you've put the ropes there and I'm trying to figure out what I've got. I mean, it kind of looks like, you know, the Julie would be lying face down, kind of like hog tied. Again, this does not sound like someone who's having recollections of memories.

It sounds like someone who's trying to envision something. What else do you see? Who else do you see? Maybe one other person, I don't see a face, but Jim Rabie's name keeps coming up. Boy, for some reason, I don't know. I keep seeing Jim Rabie. At this point, Brian went out into the hallway

to collect himself. He ran into a sergeant, and the sergeant said that he almost wanted to take away Brian's gun because he seemed so agitated. But Brian said, no, no, don't worry. It's not Paul Ingram that I want to kill. It's Jim Rayby. Interesting. Make that, make of it what you will.

All of these people, first of all, Paul. He's a cop. So why are you not even able to, you know, answer question in the normal manner, right? He's a cop. And the fact that he doesn't have a lawyer present, like so many weird. Exactly.

So Brian goes back into the interrogation and they proceed in their regularly messy fashion. And they just sat around, rapid fire, bombarding Paul with questions. They question Paul about cheating on his wife. They even asked really random questions like, have you ever worn your wife's undergarments? Have you ever put our panties on?

What? I don't think so, I would say no. Have you ever done any peeping? You ever watch people? And then boom, Satanism enters the chat and almost out of nowhere. Again, to give you some context, this is like a semi-rule small town where religion is the forefront of everybody's lifestyles Now the girls never alleged that there was any Satanism involved yet So this is before the girls ever even brought up Satanism the police are bringing it up the detectives are bringing it up and Paul seemed confused

He literally goes. I don't understand what you're trying to imply You know the Satanulk type of thing. Paul said, what, I, I, I, I, I know. I think the only thing I've ever done close to a ritual is during Halloween as a kid, a bunch of neighborhood kids got together and hung up a cat in a bag from a telephone pole,

which is pretty fucked up, by the way. So he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. So the investigators went back to the topic of sexual abuse, but don't worry, we're gonna come back to Satanism. The psychologist who examined Paul said, you know, I've got some notes here. When she was having her period, she says that you put your penis in her butt. Did you hear that? Did you hear me? Anal sex with your daughter.

Paul seemed to be in denial, so Joe butted in. Why don't you listen to what she wrote here Paul? She says when I was four years old he would have poker games at our house and they would get drunk and they would take turns One or two at a time they would have sex with her now your daughter wrote that this is her writing Paul and you told us that she's honest Paul broke down into sobs Yes, my kids are honest He went into a frenzy just crying on stop. Oh Jesus, help me Lord, help me Lord. Paul, one of the things that would

help you is if you stop asking for help and you just sit back, not try to think about anything. Just let yourself go. Relax. No one's going to hurt you. We want to help. Just relax. And Paul went limp. He hunched over and put his face in his hands and they said, why don't you tell us what happened to Julie Paul, what happened at the poker game? I see Julie lying on the floor on a sheet. Her hands are tied to her feet. She is on her stomach. Side note, his voice sounds like he's in some sort of trance.

It's not a retelling of a story or a memory. It's almost like, I see, and then, da da da da. I'm standing there, looking at her. Someone's on my left. Who is it, Paul? The only person that keeps coming to mind is Jim Raeby. Turn, turn and look at that person, Paul. He's standing right next to you, Paul. All you have to do is look to your left and there he is

Yeah, a movie of how scary the justice system is to know Wow, like does this not sound more like a session with a hypnotist rather than with investigators So Paul continues. He is a standing up. I see his penis sticking up in the air. So he doesn't have any clothes on. I don't think so. Paul then went on to name another sheriff deputy that was allegedly in the room partaking in the rapes, but for some reason the investigators blew right past it. The man was never implicated in the crimes, which is so strange considering that Paul literally placed that person in the room with Jim Raeby, but they're like, now we like that guy, so keep going.

Paul, go to the person that's standing there with his penis in the air. What's he doing to your daughter? He's getting down on his knees. He's behind my daughter. Is he putting his penis in her? Her legs are closed together, so maybe she's... they have to roll her to the side? What is she saying Paul? She's saying no. Okay he's rolling her over got it what happened next? She can't turn over on her back because she's hog tied so her hands and feet are there and it

looks like she might have something around her mouth. A gag? Like a gag. Who put it on her? I might have. Is she clothed or unclothed? Unclothed, I believe? What's the person doing? He is kneeling. His penis is by her sedhamaica. He's big. I mean broad shouldered kind of guy. Big person. How closer are you to him? I'm pretty close. How are you dressed? I don't think I have anything on. Do you have an erection? I think so. Are you rubbing yourself against her? Yeah, yeah. Is somebody taking pictures? Pictures. Is there somebody off to the right of me? It's possible. Let me look. I See I see a camera Who's taking the pictures? I

Don't know. I don't see a person behind the camera Paul that person is very important that person holds the key Well, I think I see Ray Ray-Rish Side note Ray is the third person to be named in that room. There's Jim, another deputy that the investigators just don't care about, and Ray-Rish. He would be the second person implicated in this case. He was a mechanic who worked for the Washington State

Patrol. So after hours of this weird interrogation-style slash hypnotic replaying, almost role-playing variation of the events, Paul said it felt like he was watching a movie, like a horror movie in his head. He said, and I quote, boy, it's almost like I'm making it up, but I'm not, which is weird.

So I was so strange. Even stranger was the fact that Jim Ray be walked straight into the sheriff's office after hours. Apparently, Jim still had his old key and he walked in to drop something off, and he ran into Joe and Brian, and he's like, hey, I heard about what happened with Paul. Let me know if you guys need help. He's a pretty close friend of mine. You guys know I used to, you know, this was my job. So maybe I can help question him if you need. Wow. There was a long pause. Brian and Joe weren't sure how to

react. So they closely told him, well, you've been named. And instead of immediately denying the charge, Jim Rayby undid his ties sat back in a chair and said, I mean, I don't remember anything, but I always felt like I had a dark side to me. You're kidding me right now. You're kidding me. And he said, can I just take a lie detector test? So we can talk about that. He said the same thing.

Yeah, which side note? Again, I want to say this is so spectacularly suspicious, but the only thing that's not, okay, it's still suspicious even with what I'm about to say next, but I think this is the only thing that tones down the suspicion a little bit, is the fact that in this small religious town, it's hammered into their heads that they all have a dark side to them,

that they must suppress for God, like even masturbating is a dark side to you. Having pre-marital sex or even thoughts and ideas of having pre-marital sex is a dark side to you. Thinking about someone sexually that isn't your partner is a dark side to you. What? So I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

I mean, it's been mentioned. I don't know, I don't know. So there was a lot of that rhetoric. So I'm trying to see is that why both of them said that because it's weird that both of them would say that. Let's say even if they are guilty, I just can't imagine both of them would say such similar things, especially in a context like this, both of them having been detectives, I just don't see why on earth they would say that if they were guilty or not guilty. Like it's just a really bizarre thing. Jim said, I'm completely baffled

by what in the devil is going on. I can't figure out why if I did this, I don't remember it happening. So the same things that Paula said, Jim continued, I can't even imagine someone masturbating on a small child and you're telling me I assaulted a small child? Well Jim, there's photos of it.

A picture of you lying on the floor nude next to Julie Why is he saying that? Because the idea that there are photos and videos have been thrown out But police also do lie to you and they say that there's evidence So this was a lie no picture ever was earthed of this happening now That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but none of it was found He said if I saw a picture of that, then I would have to believe it occurred.

We're talking about a situation here, Jim, where you have, if you will, a cult-type activity between you and a bunch of other guys that continued over a prolonged period of time. Yeah, the investigators really wanted to go all the way with this cult thing. Oh, inside note, like I said, no pictures were ever recovered,

no like cult robes were recovered either. Jim said, well the only option then is to lock me up and you're gonna have to throw away the key, because if I can't remember this and I'm so damn dangerous, I don't deserve to be free. I know these people are weird. Weird. So like Paulian Graham, Jim was locked up and so was Ray Rish, the third suspect. Jim was charged with seven counts of statutory weapon the second degree and then regular weapon the second degree and indecent liberties. Ray was charged with three counts of statutory weapon the second degree and rape in the second degree.

Jim pleaded with detectives to allow him to take a polygraph and when they finally let him they asked him questions like, have you ever had sexual contact with Julie? Did you have any sexual contact with Erica? Have you ever threatened any of the Ingram children? You guys know how I feel about polygraphs, especially when they are performed by people who have beef with each other.

His first polygraph came back all deceptive, like he was lying. But then Jim would later take a second polygraph where I believe Brian was not in the room and it came back clear. I mean, I just don't believe polygraphs in general, but that's just giving you the information. But it was too far now.

Erica had produced a written statement in which she described Jim Rayby not only sexually assaulting her, but further degrading her by peeing on her and defecating on her. Then she was passed to her dad and other men for other rounds of assaults. So Jim was thrown back in jail.

Meanwhile, Paul asked to have an exorcism in prison. Like he genuinely believed in his guilt and he felt like he was repressing these horrible memories of these crimes And he felt like there was a demon inside of him. So he had to have it exercised away So Paul claimed it worked because he felt delivered and he had these new memories for investigators He claimed that Jim also raped his sons according to Paul Jim Chad who was around 13 or 14 and Well started winning his eight and then Jim raped Paul Jr And he said I'll do it again anytime I want if any of you family members have something to say about it

I'll kill you So the police bring in Chad for questioning and initially Chad is like no, no, no I've never been abused sexually or any really any physical Manor by my father or anyone. I mean sure mentally emotionally that's a whole other game But also I don't think I've ever even talked to Jim Ray the other than an occasional hello there But they they have mess the others were like dig deeper Chad was like I mean yeah I do have some resentment towards my dad and my parents mainly because I had to do the brunt load of the chores

And yeah, I did try to take my own life once, I tried to cut my wrist with a razor blade, but no, I wasn't abused. The doctor interrupted him. Dr. Peterson said, listen Chad, you can remember what happened. You can choose to remember if that's what you want to do. Like what? What do you mean remember? Brian the detective said, what he's saying is Chad. It's there. The memories are there. We're just trying to help you. I know, I know they're there, but I just can't put the dot on it though. Well, I'm not surprised. It's not unusual with kids who have been through what you've been through to not remember. Number one,

they don't want to remember. Number two, they've been programmed not to remember. And eventually the investigators talked to Chad about his mental health problems. Chad admitted, yeah, I mean sometimes I hear voices in my head. And then Chad paused for five minutes in a trans-like state in a way that was so similar to Paul. I feel like they're just getting hypnotized in this room somehow. Like, I don't know what's going on,

but I feel like people are walking in and getting hypnotized. Paul starts digging into his memories or more specifically his dreams. And Chad said, well, I did have very vivid dreams as a kid. There would be people looking in through my window in our house, but it wasn't possible because I slept on the second floor. But then there would be the seven dwarves, you know, like Snow White, seven dwarves. They would be jumping up and down on my bed. And the doctor nodded.

Those dreams are about you being invaded. No, but I would look at my door and I would see like a huge house of mirrors and there was no way of getting out. Those dreams of you being violated, being trapped in a situation, an inescapable situation which happened to you, which was so horrible. Right. You want me to believe that it's real, but it is just a dream. Right, because you want to believe it's all dreams. You want to believe they're not real, but it was real, Chad. It was real.

No, it was out in my window. Also, Paul Jr., my older brother slept in the same room, so why wouldn't he remember any of that? No, what you saw was real. This same type of stuff has come out of your dad too. Were you shaking in your boots when it happened? Do you pee on the floor? Were you that scared?

No, I mean, I just had the dream. Like, they're insinuating this dream was so horrific that he peed himself in his sleep because that dream was so realistic to the rapes that he was enduring. No, I really didn't have a strong feeling about the dream. It was just a dream. But there was another dream where I was like sinking and concrete and I couldn't talk and I couldn't move except to like, just like there was this pressure on my chest.

What was on your chest? No, this is like a different dream. But yeah, there was, sometimes there was a witch that would come through my window and I couldn't move my arms and she would sit on my chest. Were you being restrained? Right, like kind of like the feeling that I was being restrained because someone was on top of me. That's exactly real.

That's the key Chad. That's what's really going on. Chad, these things happened to you. They assaulted your ability to know what was real. Chad continued, which side note doesn't this feel like sleep paralysis? I don't know, the whole thing, like the witch sitting on him, that's straight up sounds like sleep paralysis? I don't know, the whole thing, like the witch sitting on him, that straight up sounds like sleep paralysis, right? Chad said, a fat witch with long black hair

and a black robe would sit on top of his chest sometimes in his dreams. And who did this person remind you of? I don't know. You don't want to know or you don't know Chad. You probably don't want to know. Chad was asked how much room was between the Witches pelvic area and Chad's chin. Chad's like maybe a foot or so.

Ryan starts guiding Chad. So the Witch would sit there real high and you got something in your mouth. Uh, yeah. And it's not cloth. Right. What is it? Chad thought about it and he kind of nervously laughed and he said, you just made me think, oh, golly, you just made me think about that. What is a Chad? I don't know, I don't know. What were you thinking? Come on. I thought of a penis, okay?

I don't know why it's penis. Okay, don't be embarrassed. It could be let it out. It's okay. I don't know what's happening to me right now. Once the investigators were able to translate the nightmares, it was smooth sailing from that point. The witch was now a man. Hopefully Jim, the seven dwarves were members of the Colt who regularly abused him during his life. Chad had forgotten all about it till the interrogators reminded him and refreshed his memories, and yes, a penis was forced into his mouth, and the man was sitting on his chest. Not even your dream will be used against you. Yeah, pretty much. Chad had been conditioned to accept the abuse and repress the old memories.

What's interesting is that when Chad was brought in, he was initially assessed back because the sisters had accused Chad of abusing them, but now since he had accepted his victim status, the investigators were more than happy about it. So this is why I'm saying this case is so messed up. Like, if there was any truth to the girl's statements, all of this is getting fucked by the police because the way that they're handling the investigation

is making the girls completely unbelievable. The investigators turn off their recording device and when they turn it back on, so we don't know what happened during that pause, they ask, whose face was in the dream Chad, Jim Rayby. Yeah, non-suspicious at all. The next day, Chad produced a memory of being assaulted by Ray Rish in the basement when he was 10 to 12 years old. Chad also entered in similar translates like Paule when he recovered these new memories.

Sometimes Chad would be so out of it that Dule would slip out of his mouth and onto the floor. So after this, the investigators tracked down Paul Jr., the oldest child. So he's in Nevada. And at first Paule was like, no, no abuse ever happened in the family house, but I would like to kill my father if I had the chance. I've always hated that guy. He was abusive like in the term that he neglected us with held love from us. He was just messed up.

Then Paul Jr. just like the other family members fell into a trance like Satan stared off into space while he spoke. Ugh. And he said that he recalled a long, lost, repressed memory where his mom was being burnt by the cold, tied up and spread eagle on the bed. Remember, Paul Jr. walked in and then got decked in the face, and that's when he became an alcoholic. Yeah. But there was nothing in Paul Jr. statement that the police could use,

because Sandy herself claimed she doesn't remember that happening. How could they charge Paul and the others with a crime where the victim doesn't even remember it happening? Which side note about Sandy? Sandy would eventually Tell her pastor that all of this was true, but um She was definitely guilted by the pastor the pastor told her you are evil if you don't admit to the girls abuse because you're making it worse for the girls

And he straight up was like, you are 80% evil, and there's 20% of good in you, which one are you gonna choose, essentially. So she was like, okay, fine, it all happened. Yeah, at one point the detectives got so upset and annoyed at Paul Jr. that they pushed him up against a wall and screamed at him. We know you're a victim!

So that's great. Listen, this passion is great. Just not the right way or type. Which the weird thing is, you know, the police did feel like they were doing a good job. Like the detectives were deeply affected by this case, like I said. They would stay up at night. They were ruining their own personal relationships for this case. So it's not like they were dirty shady cops that were just trying to get people in trouble for their own sick dirty agenda. Minus the whole gym part.

Yeah, the gym part is really gross, but the other parts, they genuinely had a lot of compassion for the girls. So it's very confusing. I don't know how to feel. I do think that they're shady to a degree, but it's almost like, you know what this feels like? It's like these cops and even Paul and Jim,

they're like all eating their own bullshit. Like they genuinely believe they're on bullshit. Which is horrible. It's scary. Yeah, scary. Yeah, they're cops. Not a good thing at all. Yeah. So every, yeah, no, unqualified, fired. So every day they pushed more and more and Paul gave them more and he eventually gave them the cold stories that they wanted, which side note the cops and the psychologists said that they were helping Paul quote, visualize his repressed memories, which if that's not a red flag, I don't know what it is.

I mean, it started getting so wild that Paul and Jim even implicated themselves in the green river killings. So, at the time, there was a string of unsolved murders potentially committed by a serial killer that we now know as the Green River Killer. And somehow Paul had repressed memories of killing sex workers near the river, so the Green River Task Force had to look into Paul, but none of his quote memories corresponded with any of the Green River victims. So they just let it go. But what the fork is going on.

During all of this, Sandy was so scared. She didn't know what to think. Sandy felt like this never happened. She had no memories, but she had no idea what to do. The church was convincing her this was the truth. So she wrote a letter that was titled Questions to God. Has my life been a lie? Have I hidden or suppressed things? Bad things that have happened in the past.

Have I been brainwashed, oppressed, and controlled without knowing it? And then suddenly allegations against Sandy came out. So initially both Erica and Julie denied their mom's involvement in the abuse, but the investigators kept questioning, I mean, how does all this horrible shit happen in the house? And Sandy, the mom has no knowledge of it. It's not like she works outside the house.

So soon, the story changed. Erica said that during the poker games when she was raped by men, sometimes her mother Sandy would come sit on the edge of the bed to watch. Later the story changed yet again to say that Sandy would help get her ready for the men by touching her vagina. Erica theorized with her friends that maybe her parents had fed her some sort of drug altering, um, you know, type of medicine, so that she wouldn't remember as well. Eventually Julie also admitted that her mother was part of the abuse, that her mom had said to her, be a good girl and no one is going to hurt you.

Even Paul had new memories come up that involved his wife being involved. I mean, it's so strange, I tell you. And just like the others, with enough pushing, whether she was guilty or not, or whether was the pastor, Sandy was like, okay fine, I remember being whipped by Jim and Ray. Sandy also claimed that Paul had been abusive towards her the entire relationship and she even remembered how she was initiated into the cult. She said that she was tied to a tree and there was a bloody book, like a book that was bleeding and Jim rubbed the blood all over her body and then they viciously booked her. Sandy's voice started to

break and she refused to tell the rest of the story. So the cold storyline was here to stay. So a full month after Erica's first interview with the police in a new written statement, she claimed her parents both abused her and they held satanic rituals and sacrificed over 25 different babies to their cult. Now at this point, some of the people involved in the case started to feel very skeptical of the stories. They were inconsistent, they kept changing, morphing, adding new details, new people, and progressively got more and more bizarre as the investigation progressed. I mean, not Brian and Joe, other sex crimes units cops. So Detective Thompson

was one of the top investigators and one of the female sex crimes detectives. She just saw a lot of red flags. She said that these two victims would throw out landish claims, but then would be super uncooperative when it came to providing evidence. Julie would talk about how she had so many intense scars all over her body, but when asked to provide a picture, or just one look at the scars to store as evidence, she would say, no, and she would start breaking down, head down, crying. And she claimed that the scars on her body

made her so self-conscious that she never changed clothes in high school, like never wore a bathing suit, never changed in the locker room. And she's like, OK, she detectives Tom's and thought it was strange. I don't know, OK. But she said after her extensive experience in knowledge of sexual assault victims,

she thought it was strange. Julie did agree to be examined by a doctor. And she did claim that she was forced to have an abortion at 15. But the doctor couldn't find any evidence of that. Which by the way, again, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But the doctor felt sus because he couldn't locate any marks or scars anywhere on Julie's body that indicated the intense abuse that she claimed she went through. So it wasn't like she was being abused and they couldn't find the evidence, it was like she's claiming that they like stabbed her with a knife everywhere, but they don't see any scars. And usually the epidermis on your skin has

a long and unforgiving memory, so that is very strange. Later the doctor's examin' derika and found no marks except scars left from an appendectomy, which is very not abuse-related. When they went to check for evidence of a forced abortion or even just a regular abortion, Erika now claims she never had an abortion, that she was never pregnant, which is a direct contradiction of what she had previously claimed. So it was a lot of contradictions and it was just so strange. So this is when Dr. Offshey enters into the picture. Dr. Offshe was a psychologist from the University of Berkeley, um, UC Berkeley, and he was known as one of the most skeptical experts that ever worked on this case, and I'm not gonna lie, he was skeptical from the get-go. Like, he just didn't believe any of this,

like, he didn't believe Paul, he didn't believe the girls, he didn't believe any of this, he was like, what the fuck is going on, right? And in order to prove that, he started digging into people. Dr. Offshe said that when he talked to Erica, she claimed that she had attended 850 rituals and watched 25 babies being sacrificed. But when he asked her to recall specific details from those sacrifices, like she kept mentioning they were chanting, they were chanting,

and he's like, what were they chanting? She would either respond that she was too stressed to remember or that she froze or that the situation was so traumatizing she didn't wanna talk about it anymore. The result was Dr. Offshie felt that Erica was uncooperative and evasive. Dr. Offshie theorized that Julie was prone to suggestion

and constantly followed her sister's lead. And Paul Ingram was a highly suggestible individual with a desire to please authority, which is why he was so keen to agree with the interrogators. Remember how he wanted to be a part of the boys club so bad? Wow. Now there's a couple things that do add weight to his theory. Erica had read a book called Satan's Underground.

It was written by a woman with a pseudonym Lauren Stratford. And the book was like an autobiography detailing Lauren's experience growing up in a satanic sex cult. The events in the book were never cooperated with investigative evidence, but Lauren claimed it was all true. She claimed that she was forced into making child pornography with her mother, becoming a child sex worker. She describes in one vivid scene she saw mutilated dead bodies of babies being rubbed all over her. She described animal sacrifices, routine sexual abuse of children within the cult, child pornography, and other kinds of horrors. But there was not a shred of evidence to back up these

insane claims. And when asked about that, she said, well, the animals were killed and buried, but then later they dug them up and disposed of the mouseware. The children were often giving stupifying drugs before the rituals, so that their senses and perceptions are easily manipulated. The pornographic photos taken of the children are obviously held in private vaults of collectors. Satan's underground became a bestseller during the Satanic panic, and a lot of that, a lot of the majority of the readers were Christians, so Christian congregations were at the time, not all of them, but a lot of them would straight up quote the book as evidence of Satan's hold on the world.

Don't get me wrong though, a lot of Christians were puzzled by the lack of evidence. In fact, the authenticity of the book was questioned when a Christian magazine dove into Lawrence's troubled past. Lauren had a history of self-harm and made many sexual accusations that were never verified. Now, I don't have to feel about that. I get it, credibility is a big thing when me assess claims, but at the same time, this world is the type of place where you can get sexually assaulted multiple times and there be no justice, but I do find it strange that they killed babies and hundreds of animals and not a shred of evidence, and it's so similar to the story that Erica told.

We know that Erica read the book, though, because she was babysitting for a couple, saw it on their coffee table, asked to borrow it, and the couple told the police she read the book though, because she was babysitting for a couple, saw it on their coffee table, asked to borrow it, and the couple told the police she read the book. So the couple were saying, that sounds like the book. That we read, and it's weird. And when she returned the book to the couple, she was like, oh yeah, I read the whole thing. Later Erica would tell the police, no, I only read a few chapters because I felt like it was too similar to my real life, so I couldn't finish it. Okay, the question now is is she willingly doing this? What's her motive? What's the reason?

So that's the crazy thing a lot of people think she believes it. A lot of like none of no one really thinks that these girls are lying But that they genuinely believe it if it is false. really thinks that these girls are lying, but that they genuinely believe it if it is false. So maybe it's a mixture of that highly emotionally charged atmosphere at the retreat mixed with these memories of reading this probably traumatic book at a young age. Again, going back to Man our human brains are so fragile. We are so mentally weak. Yeah. Wow. And Sharti probably had disdain towards her parents. You know, they didn't have a great relationship.

So I also do think if she was sitting there crying, she might have been crying because that was just exhausting being a counselor at that retreat. But if I believe Carla's story, Carla really guided her and really suggested these events as being events that happened. And that's so scary. Now again, there might be truth to this.

I don't know, right? But if we go with that theory that there is no truth to it, that's terrifying. So anyway, Dr. Opshi ran an experiment to show how suggestive Paul Ingram was. He conducted an experiment that he was able to showcase Paul's eagerness to help. He pretty much sat Paul down and was like,

you made the children have sex with each other while you watched. None! Nobody ever claimed this. The kids did not claim this, nobody claimed it. Paul came back three days later with a whole letter, that letter that I read. Wow. Yeah. So. That is so interesting. Yeah. Dr. Off she was convinced Paul was either lying or deluded and just the fact that you don't even have to pressure him He's so to suggestible you just mentioned something and he will turn it into his reality. It was scary Detective Joe and Brian didn't like this. They said it probably did happen. That's why we're talking about a sicko We wouldn't be surprised if he did force his children to have sex while he watched. But Dr. Ophshie said no no no.

Like the fact that you've searched the house and the ground's nonstop over and over and not a single bone of a body, nor babies, nor animals that have been sacrificed to have been found, no pictures, no videos, there's not a shred of evidence. I mean they searched for months. It was probably the most extensive investigation in the county's history. But no evidence came up. An expert claimed that the ground on the property was acidic, so it could have disintegrated the bones, but it's unlikely.

But theoretically possible. Detective Joe said, I mean, of course we didn't find any evidence. We shouldn't have. These guys are police officers. We expected to find a whole lot of nothing. We did find a couple pieces of bone, so obviously something bad happened. Now, it's not clear where the bones came from, but I'm assuming nothing important because they never came up again.

I mean, just this whole case is so confusing. I mean, a lot of people don't know where to stand. I guess some people feel like where there's smoke, there's fire. But a lot of interesting psychological studies have come out to show the power of hypnosis, or altering a person's memories. One psychologist had a patient that allowed him to make suggestions while she was in a trans-like state. So there was this time period.

She went to the mall and she was on her way home. She remembers leaving the mall, but she arrived home five hours later. The drive should have taken her 10 minutes and she blocked out during those five hours. She has no idea what happened. So she is in this trans, she's hypnotized and she told the doctor, I'm driving past a ranch and there's a cow giving birth and I got out to help deliver this baby cow. But the talk they're told are, no, I want something more exotic. There's a bright light overhead.

Okay, go with that. There's a noise. I have the newborn cow in my hands, and we are being swooped up by the light. We're being abducted by the UFO. Did they experiment on you? Did the aliens experiment on you? No. in my hands and we are being swooped up by the light we're being abducted by the UFO. Did they experiment on you? Did the aliens experiment on you? No. Try harder. Yes, yes they did. And then the lady went on to tell the most elaborate abduction alien story ever. She even mentioned that this was not the first time she was abducted by aliens. So that's great. And while under this translike state she was even guided to go back into her past,

where somehow she lived in 18th century England in a castle. And finally, when she came out of her trans, Dr. Gonaway was like, what do you remember? I remember delivering a baby cow, which I know didn't happen. So Dr. Gonaway showed her the video of her talking about being abducted by a UFO

and she's like, what the fork is happening. I don't even remember saying that. What? But what's more interesting is that she said for the next entire year after this experiment, she had repeated flashbacks of being abducted by a UFO, despite the fact that she know Dan Well none of that was real. And if that's not weird enough, I mean we've all heard interesting false memories on a larger scale. That's basically the gist of the Mandela effect. What is the most famous line in the Star Wars franchise? You're not a father?

It's the Mario show. Oh, oh, oh. You are the father. No. What does he say? What does Darth Vader say? I have no idea. Okay, well, most people know it's, look, I am your father.

The line in the movie is actually, no, I am your father. Or mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the prettiest of them all? It's not mirror, mirror on the wall. It's magic, mirror on the wall. I mean, I'm sure you've seen five trillion videos on the Mandela effect, so I'm not gonna dive too deep, but there's just a lot of experiments or phenomenons, I guess,

that show that we have pretty unstable memories. For example, when the NASA Challenger Shuttle exploded on its way, a local elementary school was closed because of a sniper attack threat, which like that's a whole other story, but nobody was at the school, none of the kids were at the school, but the children all remember collectively witnessing the Challenger explosion in school while watching the televised launch, but they weren't in school. So is that what happened in the Ingram case? We don't know. The prosecutors themselves were trying to overlook some of the more wild claims. Dr. Offschee was really fighting for this case to not go to trial because what the fork.

At one point there were more than 10 names who were accused of being in the cult and they were all police officers, and even the K-9 dogs of the police force were being accused of keeping the ingramed children. Well not, I guess they wouldn't rape, but like their handlers were forcing the K-9 dogs to rape the children. I mean what? A ton of the employees took lie detector tests, all of them passed but one, but nobody paid attention to the one that failed, nor were any of the other people accused. Jim Rayby also retook the lie detector test and he passed, so it just felt like the entire investigation was falling apart. And the victim's testimonies were starting

to get a bit strange as well. Both Julie and Erica claimed that they were virgins, despite claiming that they were routinely sexually abused. And yes, before you get mad, I know that being sexually abused doesn't mean that you're not a virgin because virginity is not something to be taken. It's for you and you alone to decide what you would like to do with it, but

it is kind of odd that they just kept bringing up the fact that they were virgins, meanwhile saying that they had abortions, but then saying, wait, no, I didn't have an abortion, I was never pregnant. Like, it was a lot of contradictions. Another odd detail was that neither of the girls remembered any memories that included the other sister, even though a lot of the abuse happened in the room that they shared together, it's like the other sister just kind of disappeared. But they never said, oh, they would take one of us out of the room so they could assault us. It's just like they existed in the room,

but that sister never recalled any of the abuse on the other sister. And then the letter that Julie wrote to herself was just the whole thing. Remember, Julie pretended to be her father, wrote herself herself a letter encouraging her to take back her statements. So yeah, it looked like the police and the prosecutors were going to be embarrassed by their lack of actual police work. Paul spared them the embarrassment and pled guilty. Meanwhile, the charges against Jim and Ray were dropped, but their lives were ruined. They had over $200,000 of legal debt collectively and the community still hated them. Wow.

Wow. Paul suddenly realized that the visualizations of abuse were not memories. They were fantasies and visualizations, and he withdrew his plea. But Erica came to the hearing and claimed, you have to give my father the longest possible sentence. I believe that he will either kill me or Julie.

He destroyed our lives in our entire family and he doesn't care. He is obviously a very dangerous man. Paul told the courts, I stand before you and I stand before God. I have never sexually abused my daughters. I am not guilty of those crimes. Paul was sentenced to 20 years in prison with the possibility of parole in 12. I know it sounds bizarre considering that the allegations of baby sacrifices, but for the amount of evidence, it was an unusually large sentence. Anyway, while he was in prison, Sandy divorced him, sold the family ranch, moved out of the country, changed her name. She took their youngest mark with her.

Both Chad and Paul Jr. have married and moved away. Julie has changed her name and moved on. And as for Erica, she moved to California and insisted that she had been part of a satanic sex cult. She said that the Satanist derailed the case since they had control over the police. She also made a TV appearance or two to talk about baby sacrifices and her abortion, which now she reclaimed happened again. She said that her abortion was traumatic and how every year she would go to the doctors

and they would look at her in horror because of the level of abuse on her body, but no record was ever found of any doctor seeing any signs of abuse on her body. Paul wrote into the show and wrote, I wasn't a good father, I know, I wasn't there for my kids, I wasn't able to communicate with them the way I should of, but I never sexually abused anyone though. Emotional abuse, you don't like to admit it, but somebody has to, a child does a pretty delicate creature. I did a lot of hollering as a father.

I think I might have intimidated them. One time Julie ran about that was too hot and she burned Mark. I slapped her. Another time I saw her running away, and I pulled her by the hair and dragged her back home. I remember hitting Paul Jr. in the back of the head and I kicked him. But I never severely beat my children. When I got angry, that's when I yelled. There was a lack of affection that they should get

from a father figure. And that was that. Paul was released from jail in 2003, most likely changed his name and moved on. Interestingly, here are people's theories on what happened. Some people say that Paul is guilty of everything that the girls have accused him of, and the cult is powerful, so they got away with it.

However, that I find hard to believe. You know, we're talking Jeffrey Epstein level. Most people believe that Paul is not guilty, that he's not a great father, he's not a good father, he's a pretty shitty dad, but they believe that none of these sexual allegations are true. But they also believe that the girls are not guilty either, that they did not do this for attention, and potentially they did this in the emotionally charged atmosphere of the retreat, and then maybe it snowballed into this thing that they couldn't take back anymore. And looking at the way that

Joe and Brian were leading Paul to questions, maybe they were pushing the girls to give them more and more juicy details. Some people believe whether a smoke there is fire, maybe not the cold stuff, that got a little out of hand, but maybe there was some abuse. Maybe there was some sexual abuse because why were Jim and Paul's responses so bizarre, right? And because the cold stuff took over, nobody's paying attention to the abuse

that probably did take place, you know? Then you have the opposite side of the spectrum. This one I really don't believe, which people are like, you know, you raise kids and they're ungrateful. They're just looking for attention. Yeah, I don't even know. Like, tell me why there is a group of people out there that thought that about this case. There is, but like, go outside and touch some grass, Karen. But what are your thoughts on this case? I don't think we ever talked about a case like this because why do you are telling me?

Nobody really knows if the crime happened or not. Even with a confession, I think this is so scary. This reminds me in a very different way of the Austin case where he ate a man's face because it's just how fragile are our minds. So with that, stay safe and I'll see you guys on Wednesday for the main episode. Bye!