Rotten Mango - #220: A Group Of Friends Played Murder Games With One Rule - You Die In The Game, You Die In Real Life

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

The letters brought them together. Dean was sitting in his office when he got his letter. He could feel his pulse picking up. Someone knew what he did. Not too far away, Norman and Todd were shaking as they opened their letters. Inside Norman’s letter were a series of pictures of a woman. Norman understood the blackmailer wanted this woman killed or else he would die. Todd anxiously waited for his best friend Norman to tell him what was in his package. “Todd, it’s your wife. They want me to kill her.” Welcome to the murder games where real lives were at stake. Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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in all states or situations, prices vary based on how you buy. Betting betta boob. Welcome to this week's mini-sode of Rotten Mingo. I'm your host Stephanie Sue. Welcome to the world of chaos. Players please abide by the rules or there will be strict consequences. Rule number one, there are no rules. And remember, rule number two, chaos rules the world.

Look, games are supposed to be fun, okay? They're supposed to have rewards, consequences, emotions, drama, peaks, lows. But what if real lives are at stake in a game? Like, you die in a game, you die in real life. It sounds like one of those sci-fi movies, but in this game, friends would get together and they would play for their lives. And X-Cop and X-Marines Navy SEAL and a member of the company. That's what, three people? Yeah. The company is filled with X-CIA operatives and they would all get together on their off days and they would try to gain real life experiences and challenges by risking their lives

It's a pretty violent game. The rules were that there are no rules You drive around trying to find the target for that week's mission Players are running each other off the road shots are fired. You could have weapons at your disposal. You can't even call the cops It was terrifying. But the most terrifying part is that the games would end with someone dead. As always, full show notes are available at rotinminglepodcast.com, but there is a deep dive book on this case called Kill or Be Killed by Robert Scott. It was a really thorough look into this case, I'm going to be honest, or at least as thorough as it gets out there.

There's not that much information. I mean, I looked high and low. It's just a very scattered case. The author interviewed friends of the people involved as well as, you know, a few of those people that were directly involved. And it's just a lot to get through. I highly recommend checking it out if you want a further look into this. And with that being said, Let's get into it. The letters were all connected. The letters are what brought them together. Dean was sitting in the office when the email came in. So this is his letter.

He started glancing around nervously. His breath was shallow. He tried to keep a casual and he hurriedly clicked away from the screen. What did the email mean? I mean, it was anonymous, but it read, someone's not playing nice. He heardly clicked away from the screen. What did the email mean? I mean, it was anonymous, but it read, someone's not playing nice, stealing money is a crime. Want to make a deal?

Not too far away, another man had a message in his hands. Norman's letter, it came from a big official package that had newbie recruit, Patriot Recruiter, written in big block letters. It was sealed with wax, and inside there were multiple documents But more importantly there were pictures pictures of the same woman one of them She's you know wearing all black looking over her shoulder at the photographer in another one She's in the woods near a stream another one. She's on stage, you know performing a song

Her face is circled in yellow and everyone's else faces are crossed out. Norman was shaking when he opened the other documents. It said, T.O. that meant target of opportunity. And then W.O. 28th of April till May the 20th. Window of opportunity. In the final line, if you don't complete this mission, you will be terminated. Norman understood what that meant. That if he doesn't kill this woman, he will be killed instead. His best friend Todd, his colleague, was standing next to him and he's like, you okay, what's wrong, Norman?

Where are the instructions for this game? What's going on? They want me to kill your wife. Wow. Let's talk about the half truths of Todd. Todd was a young kid when he accidentally set his clothes on fire. He was alone in the living room and he full on panic, so you didn't know what to do. I mean, think about it. Your clothes are freaking on fire. You're like, what, seven years old?

Wait, Todd is who? Todd is the best friend whose wife's pictures are in the envelope. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, and Todd was alone in the living room. Didn't know what to do. He could, you know, if he waited longer, if he just stood in fear, if he froze, he would have burnt to a crisp and most likely taken the whole house down with him.

But he had a big brain, okay? Even as a kid. So he wrapped himself around the heavy curtains in the living room to his mother out the flames. And when his mom found out she was shocked. She was shocked that he had ruined her curtains. Todd felt really upset by this. I mean, she could be happy and proud

that he was intelligent enough to act quickly on his feet. I mean, look at the other kids. They're bozos. They would have cried and burst into flames like a fireworks display, but not me, mom, not me. He felt upset that his mom didn't acknowledge that and she didn't even seem concerned about his wounds. Now, this was a half truth.

The whole event was probably grossly exaggerated or not true at all, right? But the truth is Todd felt invalidated by his mother. He felt like she didn't ever care for her. So he set the fire? We don't know. We don't even know if there was a fire. Here's another half truth. When Todd was eight years old, his older brother was 11 and their uncle gave them these whips.

As present, yeah okay it's weird. I mean doesn't make it any better that they're bullwips, the really long whips that you would hit like a, I guess a bullwin. I don't know. So they're playing around with it and Todd somehow manages to whip his older brother so scared until the older brother hides underneath the bed to get away from Todd. And Todd is loving it. He could keep his brother indefinitely, under the bed, by whipping down at the ground near the bed any time he attempted to get out from under. The thrill?

The rush of power? Oh, that was some good stuff. It was insatiable. He realized this is the shit that politicians are after. It feels good. Power is like a drug. He did this for a really long time. Just whip, whip, whip. Before his older brother's fear turned into anger and he starts screaming. Todd, do you little piece of shit? The minute that I get out here, I'm gonna beat you up! You won't be able to see out of your left fucking eye. And that scared Todd. And he felt like, oh my god, the only way to avoid the beating of my

life is to keep him under the bed. And instead of feeling powerful by keeping his brother under the bed, he felt impending doom as he continued to whip down at the ground so his brother couldn't get out. But he too had tears streaming down his face. Todd's thrill of power had turned into outright fear of retaliation. He knew full well. The longer he kept control, the longer he kept the power. The worse his beating would be. But he was so afraid of the beating that he couldn't stop whipping to let his brother out. He was trapped in a position of power. That's so deep. Yeah, and he was too scared to let go of it.

Ooh, is that how people in power feels today? I think so. Wow. And because Todd started wailing, howling hysterically at this point, he's the one whipping at the ground, by the way. The father rushes into the room. He sees Todd with the whip, the older brother under the bed. I mean, I'm putting two and two together as a parent. He decides I'm going to teach you guys a lesson. I'm going to let me in let live. He let Todd get beat up by his older brother. That was Todd's lesson. Now, we don't know if this story is true, but we do know that there is a half truth to it, is that Todd always felt abandoned by his dad. He felt like his dad was never around to protect him when he needed it most.

He just let his older brother beat him. Those who knew Todd said that these stories all had half truths in them. And the truth was, Todd felt abandoned by his family and it was a big deal for him. So Todd Jesse Garten was a liar since the day he was born. There's not really a definitive picture of his childhood. It really changes a lot depending on who you ask, but it is accepted that he grew up in this upper middle class family in Northern California.

And according to his mom, he was this really bright, articulate young boy who just had a way with his words. But he wasted all of his words on lies. Like, this kid loved to lie. It was impossible to tell when this guy was lying or not. He was a true pathological liar at heart. His best friend from high school, Shannon, said it was, it was insane. But you know to be fair, he was going through a lot at home, but she doesn't know how much of it is true anymore. Shannon said that Todd would cry about being dragged to these fancy dinner parties at these rich people's homes.

And his parents would be like, okay, now you stay in the car because you're going to embarrass us. And he would remember sitting in the car starving, his stomach rumbling. And he just felt so utterly rejected by his parents. So he starts finding a way to feel a sense of belonging, a sense of community, which side note, eventually the family does move to Oregon. So just keep that in mind. Okay. Now later, with Shannon's brother, so his best friend's brother, Colin, Todd decides to start a band. He's like, what, 16 at the time he's in high school, Colin pays plays the drums, Todd, the bass, and together they were called detente touch.

Todd was the driving's force behind the band. He was way more into it than Colin was. I mean, don't get me wrong, Colin loved the freaking band, but Todd was out there making promotional flyers and spreading them to all the nearby clubs and bars. And it's like, you're a high school band, bro. He even told Colin, this is not good enough. We're not getting books. We need more band members. This is not a two-man show. I'm writing the songs, you're drumming away, I get it, but we need a lead female singer. Someone to bring the boys to the club. Todd was impatient.

He just called up one of his old friends and was like, hey, do you want to be in my band? Her name was Carol, but she would go by Ursula in the band. She played the bass. She was pretty good at singing, so she took on the role as the lead singer of the band and she was beautiful. So that didn't her. And it was pretty clear from the get-go that Todd and Carol had some thick chemistry. Okay, like when they played, they would just look into each other's eyes and they would glance at each other or stare into each other's souls.

It was like a high school coming of age all in one. And it wasn't long before Todd added another guitarist, Kenny, to the group. Now, the Todd touch was complete. They started handing out flyers with blurbs about themselves. Yet, do you know how awkward it is to write a blurb about yourself? I didn't want it. I'll never do it again. Because you have to write in third person, and you have to act like you are not the one writing it about yourself. So, Carol Ursula, she wrote about herself.

Ursula is every mother's nightmare and every schoolboy's nightmare. Domination is her game. Ursula loves to wield the power of controlling the amount of pain or pleasure that man, women, or child can sustain. However, her true belief is that all things have a right to be. Ursula always speaks her mind, but she prefers to sing it. Leads singer vibes! Okay, you know what is not bad?

I like the intrigue. I would be fascinated. Then Kenny, the guitarist, wrote, can is a different breed. Sucluded, but not impersonal. He's willing to share a lot with most any female who will get close enough. Guitarist's second nature to this playboy. Everyone finds it difficult to pry it from his hands. Spicy.

Colin the drummer said, life through his eyes has only seen one day at a time. Colin believes a handshake is the only gentleman's agreement. And now, Todd, the leader of the band, he wrote this about himself, okay? Todd is like a godlike creature. If you have any doubts about him, feel free to ask. Base player extraordinaire and spokesman for the band.

Don't ask him for his opinion, because he'll tell you. His quick wit and sharp tongue will always keep you guessing. I'm gonna die. And with that, Shannon was on the sound system operator and the band was ready to go. And Todd was willing to take a lot of risky bets with this band. I need to give you some background on this guy, okay?

So basically, Todd's dad was a compulsive gambler. He would win a lot of money and make a bonus at work and immediately he would gamble it away. Todd resented this guy so much for it. He's like, this dad is the most horrible dad. Like, my life would have been different if he didn't do this. And he refused to partake in any of these addictions because he felt like he would be just as quote, bad as his dad. So he never smoked, drank, did any kinds of drugs. He never even drank black coffee, like no coffee. I think a part of him was scared that he had an addictive personality like his father.

So he stayed away from anything. But unfortunately Todd was a compulsive liar, which side note pathological compulsive liars tell more than 10 lies a day. And these are not like, oh no I swear you look good Chad. No Chad seriously, you don't look like a Chad. You look like you look smart. Like not these kinds of lies. I'm talking big lies.

Yeah, 10 a day. How is that not super exhausting? Now, that doesn't mean that they're all killers or, you know, anything like that. Pathological lying will damage interpersonal relationships, but it's generally harmless in terms of, you know, life or death. But Todd was a special case because he was a compulsive gambler. He just didn't know it. He never met money on races, because he knows or anything like that that you would associate with gambling. But he was addicted to risk, which is what gamblers are addicted to.

Everything he did was a risk of some sort. And a lot of them, the risk cost benefit didn't even make sense. Shannon said that addiction to risk destroyed Todd in the end. He like how? She said, and I quote, this is his best friend,

so these are some high compliments. She's dizzing out. She said, the reason this eventually destroyed him was because Todd was a genius. I mean, I had immense respect for his intellect, but because he was so exceptionally intelligent, he always won every time he gambled on something. And this of course defeats the purpose of a gambling addiction because you want the highs and lows. This kept him in a perpetual state of frustration in which he would have to come up with weird ways to unconsciously sabotage himself so that he could start over with a new risk. What?

She's saying that he went too much so he self-suffer, self-suffer, huh? Yeah. Listen, I get it, but not really. Not because I don't think that people do this, but Todd was not that smart. I really just think that he had a lucky streak, if I'm being honest. So Todd starts making some big risks with the band. He starts booking shows multiple states away. Then he would insist that they sneak out of their parents house, take a broken down car,

multiple states away, to go to the show that he just booked. I mean, it was just ridiculous. Like, none of them, nobody had to do that. They could have just rented a car. They could have just told their parents, but he loved the risk. And even though the band started making money, Todd is like, no, I think we should make some risky changes.

Let's be edgy or with the marketing. So he wrote about his band like this. This band leads you through political strife, suicide, apartheid, war, and inhumanity, yet with sexual overtones that will keep you move and dance in and cheering. So he starts getting really political. He starts getting obsessed with violence and it's clear in his music.

And one word, the combination of politics and violence is just war. The guy was obsessed with war. And his way of marketing was controversial, but also kind of successful. Like he took a risky gamble and it worked. His bandmate said this about him Todd is like the idea guy 99% of the ideas he had were bullshit But there was like 1% that were just a real gem Todd would bring in these ideas give them substance You know bring some order out of the chaos and I'm gonna be real Todd was not modest

He would take credit for what he accomplished, but you know what? Hey, he deserved it We pretty much let him have his way with the band because he was good at selling us. He was good at selling himself. We believe that he could sell a refrigerator to Samsung. Okay, I changed that because they used a different word, which happens to be a slur, so Samsung. Todd was good at having this infectious excitement though. He would market an idea, get excited and by default his bandmates would get excited and everyone around him just got so freaking

excited. But eventually the fun were out. There was no more challenge with the band. They were getting popular and there is no risk in being universally liked. So he starts switching their concept from punk rock to gangster rap. Okay. That's what they called it, gangster rap with no ER. Like it's just gangsta. So you're saying that as they're growing better, bigger and bigger, it's like, I have to make him more edgy now. Yeah. And but it's not even on the same track. Like you would imagine that if you're getting traction in one niche, you would stay or double down on that niche, but he was like, no. So he's not chasing the success. He's chasing

something else. Yeah. Like some, just he's not chasing the success. He's chasing something else. Yeah, like some just some hardship and risk or something. He was just obsessed, okay? And he started digging his heels into anything political and violent, and he was obsessed with the troubles of Northern Ireland. You're like, what? Okay, so this is happening in America,

but we did a whole episode on this, on the troubles. Episode 132, the Sisters of Terror, it was this huge conflict in Northern Ireland that lasted about 30 years. Tensions were rising from the Protestant Unionist, the loyalists as they were called, and then the overwhelming Roman Catholic nationalists who were Republicans, I mean, it was a lot of fighting, okay?

Half of them wanted Northern Ireland to break free from the UK and unite with the rest of Ireland. Things just got very, very bloody and incredibly violent. wanted Northern Ireland to break free from the UK and unite with the rest of Ireland, things just got very, very bloody and incredibly violent. And Todd loved the violence and he loved the politics because, you know, I think Todd really likened himself an intelligent man. I don't think that he's smart, but I think he liked to think that he was smart. And so regular violence to him is caveman. It's disgusting. There's no point. But when you add politics, suddenly he feels like it's

violence with a purpose. It's violence with a cause. And he likes it. But in reality, he just likes violence. Todd loved the gore. And in Portland, where they were getting booked a lot, politics was a hot subject. So Todd starts hearing about all these horror stories

from immigrants from Northern Ireland that had lived through the troubles. And Todd would later say that he was super sympathetic to everything going on. And he got so riled up, you know, you know how it is, you just get so riled up that you just start making stories up and telling people that you fought in Northern Ireland. You know how that happens? You ever met like a veteran? You're like, oh my god, this story moved me so much I'm gonna go tell everyone I fought in the Vietnam war. Like, what are you saying? This is so confusing. So he said when he was, because mind you, he's like 1617, okay, he's in high school when he's saying this. He's like, when I was 12 years old, I stole my parents' credit card because I wanted to fly, to

Belfast, to Northern Ireland. And I had read so much about it, and I just wanted to see what was going on. How you got on the plane, I don't know. He was like, then I flew, and I fought in the conflicts in Ireland for about a year. Before I realized, you know, where I was, and what I was doing, and I realized that I was making a massive mistake, I had to get home,

but, you know, getting home during war times is a completely different,other scary challenge, right? And everyone's like, right. And they believed him. Because this is high school. I mean, there's CIA operatives in every high school, right? And no, Kevin is not dating three girls at one time. There's just so much going on, right?

He stuck with this story for years, even after high school. He also had a Celtic Cross tattooed on his chest, which is not unique to Northern Ireland, but it is traditionally used in Ireland as a religious symbol. And Todd claimed that he got it overseas in Ireland while helping the junior members of the IRA. But more likely, he just got it in a random tattoo shop in Portland. And slowly, but surely, Todd's lies start getting out of hand. I mean, how do you go from that crazy tale of fighting in the troubles in Northern Ireland to just lying about speeding five over the limit someday? Or like, oh I got hit on at Starbucks.

He needs more thrill, he needs bigger lies. So his life started getting wilder. He starts talking about how he had been paid to kill two men in Portland, aka he was a hired hitman, and he followed through on it. He said that he found these men, kidnapped them, bound their arms and legs together, hog tied them, and then decapitated them. People are like, oh my god, when did you do that? That's crazy. He was like last year when I was 16. It was wild. You know, they were really bad men though, because I threw their bodies in the river,

but honestly, I did the world a favor. That's the only reason I was okay with killing them. You know, fewer people are going to get hurt because I killed them. I did it in a professional way though, and I got paid, which by the way, it's super easy money. It's so easy to just set up an LLC and create your own assassination company. I mean, people is not really believing this, right? They are. Yeah. You're like, what? Not in my high school. You would get bullied, okay? What you watch depends on what kind of majoring.

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Yeah, so we set up a 1-800 number under an LLC and then you just start making an income. People will hire us and we don't actually kill anyone, but who are they gonna complain to once they give us the money, surely not the police. So you say he's scamming people? Yeah, thankfully none of his friends set up an S-corp with him,

but the idea was out there floating around in Todd's brain cellless mind, but the only one that there, floating around in Todd's brain cellless mind, but the only one that really, really believed him, that really admired him. You know, because everyone, they kind of believed him, but they were like, that's a little weird. I don't know how to feel about it, but there was this girl in high school who was obsessed. Her name was Lynn. Let's talk about Lynn.

She's an interesting character, and I don't mean that with a lot of respect. Lynn was 16 at the time, and she was obsessed with Todd. They met in high school and she said she could even remember the day that she first laid high thought and taught. I was standing by my locker with four of my real close friends and there was a rumor going around about a new guy that just transferred from California to Portland and none of us had seen him yet so we were just standing in the hall and just talking about him. And I remember looking over, and he was walking down the hallway, like a movie scene. Lynn begged her friends to introduce her to Todd. They idol just met Todd.

And from that moment, when she found out that he was also part of a band, I mean that sealed the Motherfrippin' deal, she was hooked. Lynn had always been into music and she loved a good bad boy. She was straight up and fad she waited with Todd. She said, he sang, he wrote songs, he played instruments, he did everything. Oh my god, our first time together was magical. And every time afterwards, wild. Talking about sex. Oh wow. Lynn admitted to even having sex with Todd in a motel hot tub after band practice. And there was a rumor that was unproven, but whispers of a rumor that another couple joined them later on for a force. But as infatuated as Lynn was, she was also seeing someone else on the side. So she was sleeping with her best friend Natalia on the side.

And she said that the two of them, they had a lot of sexual tension, so they had a sexual relationship. Listen, I don't know how Todd felt about the sexual relationship between Lynn and her best friend. I don't know if he knew, but I do know that he knew that her heart belonged to him. Even Lynn would be the first to admit that she was enamored by this guy. She felt even closer to him the more and more they got to know each other. She sat there batting her eyes up at him with shock and awe as he talked about his battles in Northern Ireland.

He even showed her the tattoo he had on his chest and he knew so much about the history, Irish history, the troubles, just history in general, and the fact that they're in high school, Lynn believed it. When Todd told her that he could make Molotov cocktail explosions, Lynn had no reason to not believe him. And then one day he came up there in the hallway and was like, you gotta keep this book for me. You have to keep it hidden. I can't risk them finding it in my room. You're like, what book? Twilight. No, I'm kidding. It was called the Anarchist

Cookbook, which is basically a book filled with ways to kill people and make bombs. The book itself is satire. The Anarchist Cookbook, the ways of killing people are kind of really bizarre and out there that it's not really feasible without getting caught a million times. But Lynn was like, oh my God, that makes sense. Like, why would he need a killing manual if he's not a real assassin? Yeah, because the CIA gives out killing manuals.

Oh my God, they probably do. I don't know Lynn, use your brain. Maybe it's the same reason I have 25 self-help books and cookbooks, okay? Waiting to be read. But you don't see me over use your brain. Maybe it's the same reason I have 25 self-help books and cookbooks, okay? Waiting to be read, but you don't see me over here cooking my own recipes. So, inside the book, Todd had placed the little articles about Ireland, about the conflicts and some of the pages wedged between. And, you know, he's like, wow, he's really part of this whole Ireland thing.

Like, they're gonna come kidnap him. He's like too pivotal in the whole trouble. He's like a key character. That's what she's thinking. To add to the insane believability of this story, Todd showed her an article with a man whose face was kind of blurry in the middle of an armed conflict, and he was like, that was me. That was me.

He also talked passionately about how the kids in Ireland weren't all right, because they had grown up around bloodshed in the constant fear of being caught in the crossfires of war They were not all right. I mean valid, but what's going on? And surprisingly there were references to other rock music in the book. He loved the rock band U2 Everyone knows U2 a lot of younger people know that because all the U2 songs were in the Apple products Oh my goodness. Can you buy some? Yeah.

It's them. Lynn was in so much awe of Todd that she started listening to U2 and reading any books, thrillers, stories of espionage, things that she thought that Todd would be interested in that would remind him of his adventures in Northern Ireland. So basically, anything violence and war related, she was like, oh my god, that reminds me of my boyfriend. She even went downtown to look for jewelry, and she found these two Celtic crosses and

thought, maybe, he'll like me if I wear a cross. So she bought two matching ones of them, gave one to Todd, and wore one for a really long time, like I'm talking decades. And even that wasn't enough. She wanted more. One day she took a razor blade, carved a hardened to the flesh of her upper thighs, and carved the letter T in the middle. T for Todd. And it's not like Lynn's devotion and love bombing infatuation was one-sided. Todd reciprocated. I mean, he didn't do anything permanent, like carving into his own body,

but he did give her a nickname. Wasn't it? Definitely was not an equal relationship. But anyway, he gave her a nickname called Maliki, and he said he came from the Bible and also ancient Irish myth and it meant angel. But neither in the Bible nor in Irish myth was there a Maliki that refers to an angel. There are other Maliki references and other religions, but I don't think they straight up mean angel. So whether Todd knew that and didn't care to fact check before he did, or he just thought it sounded cool and gave it a random meeting, I don't know, but Lynn never checked it out. She just went with it. It sounded romantic, that's all that matter to her.

Their relationship was intense, but it was so much short-lived. It fizzled off because Lynn got suspended from school, and it was hard for Todd to see her all the time because she was no longer in the hallways, and you know, when you're in a high school, out of sight, out of mind. Out of hallway, out of mind? Yes! And he was spending a lot of time with another girl anyway. Carol Holman.

So this is a very different Carol from the lead singer of the band. There's two Carols in this story. This Carol is going to be very important. Carol was the baby of three sons in the Holman family, so they were really protective of her. I mean she was clearly the baby of the family, the daughter of the family, and honestly, she got along with her family. Like, they all loved her. They were all super tight. She would draw, make-up songs, and she was just two years old. She was always like this curious kid. She

was just fascinated by the world around her. Everything that had to do with outdoors or sports, she was involved. She loved it. Sometimes Carol refused to get out of the bath until her fingers were beyond pruny because for some reason she just loved water. And then tragedy hit when she was 17 and her parents decided to get it to force. And it really affected her. She was used to this tight-knit family and now it just felt like everything was gonna change. Everything was gonna fall apart. She started acting out, skipping classes, staying out late, getting more and more rebellious.

She joined a band. Yeah, that's when Todd's attention went from Carol to Lynn and back to a different Carol. People said, it's no brain or why Todd was attracted to Carol, and I quote, Carol was very generous. She was built like a fertility goddess. Yeah, her was very generous. She was built like a fertility goddess. Yet her eyes were huge. She had these amazing lashes that were so thick and she had these full lips and she was

curvy. She had a very healthy sexiness about her. She was very loyal and supportive. I think a lot of guys wanted to take her away from Todd. I would hear random boys saying to each other, she's too good for that jerk. But Carol was in love. What could you do? The only difference is that Carol and Lynn were not the same. Lynn swallowed every single

lie Todd told without question. But according to those who knew Carol well, she was the only one that could see right through Todd's bullshit. But she didn't hate it. It just kind of amused her. That he was able to trick so many people, that he was so, so, the audacity of this guy. I mean, it was just kind of funny to see how far he would go with his outrageous lies. There was no shy side to him, and whenever he tried to lie to her, she would call him out on it and she thought it was kind of funny, watching his reaction getting called out. I think it frustrated him that he couldn't get past one on Carol. So you're like, what, why does she even like this guy?

I think when you're young, maybe you see the excitement and things and people and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think she really liked his style, his charisma, he did have leadership abilities, he was like the leader of every friend group that he walked into. She also bonded with him. Carol even moved into their band house, it was like a high-pouse situation. A group of 16-agers and young adults living and creating music together and having fun and Like the high-pouse for a while. It was just non-stop controversy Just non-stop chaos people were in and out of the house high-on drugs partying Todd relished in the drama the constant scandal or crime that was waiting to erupt He loved it. He got off on it. Carol just tolerated it her parents hated hated it, and so did Lynn.

You're like, wait, Lynn? Okay, so Lynn's coming back. She's not going anywhere for decades, so just, Lynn's going to be a part of this story. Lynn hated this high-pow situation. She didn't blame Todd though. She felt like Carol was the homewrecked. The guys in the band said this about her. Lynn was kind of a bubblehead.

Like there was nut and upstairs. I mean, she was obsessed with Todd. She was a hangar on a groupie. I think that Todd just tolerated her. She started coming to all of our band practices. Nobody wanted her there. Everybody wished that she would just go away. Todd and Carol were now obviously an item.

They lived together. But Lynn would just hang out. I mean she wasn't even part of the creative process. Carol, you know, she was taking initiative and she had some talent, you know? Nobody even gave Lynn the time of day, but I think Todd was taken advantage of her. She would make up these stupid excuses to be there. Like, she would come with a stupid problem that only Todd could solve and it was just all bullshit. She just wanted to be around him.

I think it probably was hard on Carol, because Carol and Lynn, they really didn't like each other, but Todd would never ask Lynn to go away So this guy clearly thrived on attention and what better attention is there than having two girls swooning over you But when Carol got pregnant Everything changed. Todd's whole energy changed. He was ready to drop Lynn like a fly But it was a traumatic incident. Carol had an ectopic pregnancy She was super super sick They had to remove an abnormal growth inside of her to save her life and it was really scary

The pregnancy was not viable and this changed Carol A lot of bandmates said that she was no longer just a regular high schooler She was more mature more serious emotionally and everything afterwards. She grew from this experience Batad he was fallen apart. The band was fallen apart. His relationship was falling, everything was falling apart. He asked Carol to move in with him and his parents

to make sure that she didn't go anywhere. And Todd was just really upset with where his life was going and he was taking it on on her. And you're like, why the hell was he mad? Todd was mad that he wasn't rich. Todd really hated rich people. And I'm not saying it in the Gen Z hates rich people. He's not like, eat the rich billionaires who exploit workers.

Eat the rich big corporations that are killing the planet. He's like, fuck my middle upper class neighbor who drives a Camaro. What? Yeah, because he wasn't upset that they were rich and that money is corruption. He was upset because he wasn't rich and he were rich and that money is corruption, he was upset because he wasn't rich and he felt like anyone around him who was rich was just obnoxiously showing off their wealth. So he just hate anyone who's doing better than him?

Yeah, precisely. It had nothing to do with any sort of social dilemma or conversation. He would go around the neighborhood at night shooting at New Car's Parkton Driveways because he was so bothered that people could afford new cars and that he couldn't. He felt like these people purposely bought these

new cars to piss them off, to rub it in his face that they were richer than him. So I mean, it's safe to say that this guy's pretty lost at this point. So after high school, Todd decides, let me join the Marines then, right? And he's still stringing along Carolyn Lynn. So the both of them are like, yeah,

we're gonna wait for you to get out. He goes to back to California for the Marines. And I believe, you know, care goes with him. Lynn stays in Portland, which side note about the Marines. Todd was in the Marines for exactly a year and 23 days, which is not that long if I'm being honest. He was never a lieutenant nor did he receive a purple heart or a combat medal or any sort of medal nor was he ever a navy seal like he would later claim. So there's that. He was honorably discharged because he heard his leg during training. So anyway, during his time in California,

Lynn had kind of moved on. She was dating a guy named Chris. She even crossed out the T-scar on her thigh for Chris. Wow, okay, finally, go for her. But she still refused to take off her cross pendant. Yeah, I know, too much kudos too soon. So I guess she wasn't over her high school crush even after all this time. And then one day Chris heard the phone ringing in Lensroom, rushed over to pick it up.

And he came back to Lynn and she's like, who was that? Your ex boyfriend. She rushed over the phone to call Todd back and she said that when she got on the phone with him he begged her to marry him. What the f- I don't know the guy was really thirsty for attention. Maybe it had to do with the fact that he was discharged from the Marines. He wanted more validation because he starts writing letters to Lynn trying to pull her away from Chris and from moving on. He's writing, I adore you Lynn. I count myself as nothing before your

divine majesty. You are life, truth, beauty, and goodness. I, I glor you Lynn. I count myself as nothing before your divine majesty. You are life, truth, beauty and goodness. I glorify you. I give thanks for your existence and I desire to serve Obey and love you. And she fell for it? Oh my god. She was eating it up with like a mother-pull spoon, like just big spoonfuls of it. So he calls her again to propose and she's trying to play hard to get and she's like, let me think about it, okay? They hung up and almost immediately she's like, okay, let me call him back and say yes, before he takes it back. She dials his number, freaking Carol picks up. And then it's like great, let me rub it in her face. Maybe she'll get the message now and stop talking to my man. So Lynn confidently tells her, well, touch his proposed to me.

Carol is silent for a minute. Then she said, imagine that because he just proposed to me too. He proposed to both of them at the same time. Remember, he's a pathological liar that loves attention. So of course, he's playing both of these women. It is impossible to even know whether he had genuine feelings for either of them at any given point. But he chose to marry Carol. A lot of feelings for either of them at any given point. Buddy chose Demarri Carol.

But the Carol chose him too. Yeah. Wow. So I think that he was just telling Carol, like Lynn is crazy. She's just saying nonsense. I called her to tell her that I proposed to you and like she needs to stop calling and now she's trying to start drama. I imagine that's the type of stuff that Todd would do. So he picked Carol and a lot of people speculate that it's because she was there. You know, she had moved to California with him for him to be in the Marines, and Lynn was still in Portland. Honestly, I think that Todd was rushing into marriage,

because the rest of his life was not advancing. So to get married, you know, it seems like your life is going somewhere, at least one department of your life is successful and that's the romantic life. So the two of them wed in this beautiful ceremony, Todd is wearing his Marines uniform, nobody told Lynn that Todd and Carol got married, and nobody told Carol that Todd and Lynn were still talking. And eventually, Todd found out that Lynn was talking to another man, Dean Noise.

Dean Noise, they get married, so he's important. He started feeling some type of way. Todd did. He starts upping his seduction game for Lynn while he is a full, newlywed. He wrote letters that said, That's all that matters, isn't it, though? Your happiness? I mixed up and I messed up, you know, my body's in deep pain.

I tried running again and I got half a mile before my leg gave out. I've got to heal fast I've got some business to take care of that business that he was talking about meant killing someone Yeah, Lynn assumed that he was going on top secret missions for the Marines to kill dangerous political enemies of the state She was hooked on his life still which I find a bit odd. I mean, I don't know I feel like I think of all the weird stories that kids used to sell in high school There's like a full grown adult. You're like, ah cringe like gives you the ink But Lynn even with the time and distance and even though now she's a full grown woman. She's still eating it up She even knew at this point that he was living with Carol

I mean she didn't know that he was married, but she knew that they were in a relationship So basically Lynn just really wanted his love. He kept writing to her about there was no man in this world that could love her like he did. And he shit-talked Dean, and when Lynn announced that she was going to marry Dean because Todd never made an effort to be with her, he talked to her non-stop while she was wedding planning. For like an entire year about her, he was going to come up in there to that church and object the wedding.

And she said, If you come, I will leave a whole church of people. I will leave with you. Okay, gross. I can't even imagine the level of betrayal knowing that someone is actively planning a wedding with you, but they're also actively willing to leave. Instantly, like they're talking to somebody else. Yeah, Lynn was clearly ready to leave everything for Todd, and it's equally obvious that Todd was just bullshitting. He never bothered to even make a trip to Oregon to prevent the wedding. And when Lynn asked after the wedding, she's a newlywed, she cryptically asked him, like, why didn't you come?

And he said, I didn't come because I want you to be strong enough for yourself. It was supposed to be like this deep thought out quote, but it's just like, what are you even saying? I don't know, this is like a really specific ik, but I don't like when people talk like that to me in a serious setting because I just cannot take it seriously. Like I will laugh in your face and you will be having your own K-Drama moment and I will be cackling.

Yeah, he said, I want you to be strong enough for yourself. And then Lynn got pregnant with Dean's child. And incredibly, she asked Todd, will you be my baby's godfather? Oh, I'm chief. You've got to be kidding me right now. She even asked Todd to drive to Oregon to be the baby's godfather by going to this little ceremony. And this is after she found out that Todd was fully married to Carol.

And they caught Todd do it? Todd never showed up for this air money, but he was still knited, the godfather of the child. And he kept calling Lynn and I swear this is like the plot of a sitcom. Like none of it is funny, but it's so unbelievable and ridiculous. It's like a sick joke. Todd was still calling to talk about the anarchist cookbook, and he was sending her stuff like more articles to put in the book. Like why are these full grown adults acting like teenagers? Even if this was a high school sitcom, nobody would find it believable.

But here we are. If Todd is a pathological liar, then Lynn has got to be a pathological believer because she is eating it up. So the two of them, they're constantly on the phone giggle gagging about this fantasy life that Todd is talking about where he's an ex-IRA member, a Marine Navy SEAL assassin, and hopelessly in love with Lynn. Meanwhile, Carol is out there working job after job in reality, paying all the bills, she's the only adult here, and she was really good at her job, by the way. She started working at a random entry-level job as a hotel,

like a clerk, and she worked her way up to be a manager. So she's doing stuff with her life. Todd is barely trucking along. He started multiple failed companies, so that's great, but he was good at making friends and wasting his time while his wife worked. The first friend he met was Norman Daniels III. Yeah, just Norman, though. And they met by chance one day. Norman saw Todd

wearing his military shirt and Norman is ex-Army and the two of them struck up a conversation and Todd's like, you know, I'm still in the army. I'm a Marines lieutenant. No, he's not. I injured both my legs recently, so I'm not on active duty. So this was going on. Look, Todd had a way of drawing people in and Norman was no exception. The two men started talking about combat and army things and Todd at one point pulled up Google maps and started pointing at all the places that he claimed that he had been deployed to. He's like been there, oh yeah, been there all of her up and down Central America, been all around. Oh, Northern Ireland, been there and Norman was in awe. Because even though Norman was in the army,

his whole experience had been underwhelming. Like, he saw zero action. He went through boot camp and then he did like, computer work for the army. Like, he was, he thought that he would be in the trenches, which like, I don't know why you would want to be that so much PTSD you got to deal with, but you know, hyper masculinity.

So he's listening to Todd's stories just in awe. Stories of Todd being on top secret drug bus in Guatemala and El Salvador. He said that he was so good at his job that the Marines loaned him out to the DEA. He also, it's like the drug, the drug catchers. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The drug catchers. Ghostbusters.

I guess. It's like the only, the only three lettered acronym government agency that I'm not that terrified of. Oh yeah. Like, what are you going to do? What are you going to sniff on me, huh? Smite perfume, thank you. He claimed he was a sniper that would repel off a helicopter whenever drug cartels fired

on the helicopter. And the reason that he broke both of his legs was because he fell from the line of the helicopter like he's swinging down like black ops style. You know what I'm talking about? And the line broke and he landed on both his legs and broke them. Wow. Yeah, but he said this is all top secret.

So he's actively telling you this story, this top secret mission story, two seconds after he met you. But yes, don't tell me what I told you. Yeah. Because you know, discretion is like the biggest lesson. this top secret mission story two seconds after he met you. But yes, don't tell me more. I told you. Yeah. Because you know discretion is like the biggest lesson. So I don't know what the hell is going on here. And then came Todd's most used most love story,

the Northern Ireland troubles. Todd talked about how he had been there when he was 12, how he had seen some of his bestest friends being murdered in Ireland. And he told these fantastical stories about taking down seven British soldiers that had him cornered with guns pointed at him. Later Norman would say, I guess it's my fault that I'm a trusting person, I guess. I mean, if someone told me they had a million dollars in the bank, I would never ask for

proof. So he's eaten this up, and he's vicariously living through Todd's stories, which by the way, Todd even took Norman to this famous bridge in the area that a lot of kids would like jump off of And in water and he was like this is how I jump off the helicopter and he would jump off the side Sorry, it's like so ridiculous. I'm laughing because I Can't imagine a full grown adult doing that and I can't imagine a full grown adult listening to him now side note just about this Todd didn't really show this side to Carol So after they got married he was very like quote normal with care because Carol don't believe it exactly So after high school to Carol's eyes, it seemed like he had just grown up

You know that was just like his rebellious stage. He had just grown up But now now he's out there all day every day doing this shit And I think this is what he gets off on. Yes. Getting the people go, Whoa. Yes. You did that.

And Carol would never do that for him. Yeah. Because she was like, shut up. That's a lie. He's like, let me show you. Yeah, this is how I did it. Thank you. Like if a guy took me anywhere to do that,

even if he was a Navy SEAL assassin, Marine, I would get the Yik. I'm like, here, let me jump into the bathtub and show you. Yeah, I would get the Yik. Meanwhile, Carol is still just managing hotels and working her ass off to make money for her and her useless husband. And Todd's all like, hey babe, I'm going to start a promotions company called Emerald Productions.

I'm going to help local venues book bands. Well he failed. It was a flop. And Carol really started to pull away from the relationship. I mean, it wasn't just another failed business venture. I think to her, it was more. Imagine being married to someone who never puts in work that has you do all the having lifting.

I mean, she was miserable. She was very resentful of Todd. She told her friends, all we do is fight about money. I feel resentful. He's never grateful. Like, I work so much to support the two of us. And she was just so unhappy and disillusioned with her life. So almost as a last-ditch effort

and also because taught owed a lot of money to a local club for scamming them from a promotion that he had to skip town and move to Cottonwood, California. You're like, where's that? It's a tiny, tiny town, probably with like, what, a thousand residents, California. You're like, where's that? It's a tiny, tiny town, probably with like what, a thousand residents, maybe? Like a lot of people would be depressed in a small town like this, okay? And that's not to say that small towns are bad, but it's a very specific type of personality that can live there and be completely happy.

Neither of them were that person, but they tried, because Todd's parents lived there and Todd needed a job. So he starts working for his dad's fencing company and Carol being the amazing wife that she is. She quickly addressed. She's the type of person that was content no matter where she was. She was the type of person that found pleasure in small things. But not Todd. He wanted drama, action, attention, big stories.

I think a part of Todd wanted to believe that his life was as exciting as his lies and he was lying to himself a lot and to Lynn. Lynn was like his audience. There weren't that many residents in Cottonwood. So he would call Lynn and pretend that he was still going on special missions to kill people, that he was a sniper, he had done things, seen things, and I don't want to talk about it, you know. But he talked about it all the time. That's all he talked about. He talked about how he worked for leaders at Quantico, the FBI training academy.

He talked about how he was part of a black ops group. And she's like, what does that even mean? What do you guys do? And then he's like, black ops groups? Babe, where are the people that go in and do things and come out? And nobody even knows we were there. Lynn ate it up for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. She said in her defense, he showed me pictures of his medals.

There were purple heart medals in there. Which side, no, Todd could have easily purchased the medal or even borrowed it. Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs, whatever was in there. Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this? No. Who's gonna catch us? What a police. It was the height of the crack era and instead of locking up drug dealers some New York City cops had become them

I would suit up in my uniform and we're gonna want some drug dealers and I know how to do it really well This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all. Did you consider yourself a rat? 100%. I saved my soul just like everybody else does. Listen to and follow the set, an Odyssey Originals documentary podcast series available now in the Odyssey app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.

I'm not a big guy, man, but I love being that dirty mother f***er. Anyway, it was during this time that Todd also starts mentioning the company. Now, the company was a pay for hire assassination organization, anyone could send the money and they would have someone killed. It didn't matter who the target was if you just provided enough money. I mean, obviously, depending on the target, the money would change. A member of the company would be called out, sent out to kill the individual, and it would be done. Todd alluded to being a member of the company, and over time he started opening up to Lynn about it.

He said, it's not really a part of the government, like it's not. But most of the company members are XCIA operatives or current Marines, seals, we just kind of freelance for it, because it's really good money. I've done a few jobs for them. George was my first one. George? Your former bassist? In your band?

Yeah, I have no idea who wanted him dead, but you know what I do, I just, I don't think about it too much. I think once you start doing what I have to do, it doesn't matter who you take out in order as an order. George the Basis was very much alive, and Lynn could have easily fact-checked that. They were all friends on Facebook and stuff, so I don't know why she didn't do that,

but she didn't. She said, I always believed everything that Todd said. I still wore my suckedet cross and when the chain broke, I got a new chain. She even got a tattoo that somewhat matched Todd said. You know, I still wore my selted cross and when the chain broke, I got a new chain. She even got a tattoo that somewhat matched Todd's. Yeah. Unbelievable. So at this point, Todd had his selted cross tattoo. And underneath it, he got the Irish flag and the American flag and then the words one,

but not the same. Lynn got a tattoo that just said one above a Yinen Yang symbol. And it was supposed to match Todd's one but not the same tattoo and it had additional meetings. One of Todd's favorite songs back then was from you two called the one. It was about longing to be with someone that you can't reach and it did have a deeper undertone meaning about the Cold War tensions. So it was this huge reference to Todd because he loves violence, he loves politics, he loves war but he also loves being, I don't know, a hopeless romantic or pretending to be

So she gets tattooed one And then finally, one day Okay, sorry Todd was like, hey babe, I'm gonna visit Portland Lynn was so excited, she was probably planning out her outfits doing the most and then boom He shows up with Carol And Lynn is like, what the fork? She was so jealous, even though she was married to Dean, and they had a child.

She didn't care. She felt trapped. She hated Carol. She hated Carol for stealing her man and then cheating on him too. Yet Todd convinced Lynn that Carol was cheating on him and abusing him and made him miserable, and Lynn started hating her life. She just wanted to be happy with Todd. So over the phone, she would rant to Todd

about how life would be so much easier. If Dean and Carol were just out of the picture, I mean, imagine a life without them, which I'm so confused because neither of them are religious or from a traditional community or family. So if they both got divorced, totally not a big deal. Nobody would even bat an eyelash. So I don't know why they were doing this whole

star cross lovers narrative, like where they just like can't be with each other It's giving high school. It's giving main character pick me people It's like wanting your life to have this deep meaning, but you're just cheating. You're just cheating on your partners That's it. So at first allegedly the conversation started as wouldn't it be nice if they just tragically died in an accident to Lynn being like Hey, remember, you're talking to me about the company?

Could they do something? And it started escalating very quickly. And Lynn, I don't know why. I think she would really do anything for Todd, or she was just a horrible person. Well, I think both. I don't know why Todd wanted to kill Dean. Cause Lynn, I don't know.

I think she would do anything for Todd. That's why, but why would Todd want to kill Dean. Cause Lynn, I don't know, I think she would do anything for Todd. That's why, but why would Todd want to kill Dean? I think it really was for the thrill. Because he started striving to Portland and start stalking Dean. And I think he felt like he was finally living the life that he claimed he lived. The stalking, the spying, the espionage, the thrill,

the validation that he needed, that he was someone that he was capable, that he was a killer. And while spying on Dean, Lynn's husband, he actually did uncover proof that Dean was cheating on her. Yeah. And at first Lynn didn't believe it, which like really of all the stories that Todd has told you, this is the one where you're like, that's too crazy to be true. I'm just so outraged.

So even though she got proof finally, she's like, oh my God, he is cheating on me. Lin considered this disgusting and vile. She called Todd with a stealing voice and said, go ahead then. Get him. Take him out. Take them. Take him out. Yeah.

So Todd starts talking to Lin and the company and, well, she doesn't talk to the company. He talks to the company and she told him that there was a hundred and twenty-five thousand dollar life insurance policy on Dean, so the company could be paid from that. And all she asked was that Dean not be killed in their home because she didn't want her children to witness it, and they had just installed new carpets, and she didn't want blood on the new carpets. A lot of people later asked, Hey, Lynn, why don't you just, I don't know, crazy thought, get a fucking divorce.

She said. I mean at the time I was so hurt and full of anger and then there was my relationship with Todd and my parents you know when I was younger my parents went through a really bitter divorce and my line of thinking was this might be easier in the long run for the kids because they were so little they would deal with the loss easily but a bitter custody battle that would be more traumatic for my kids. I make no comment on that statement, because I can't make any nice comment on that statement. So Todd reached out to the company and they came back saying that he could kill Dean as

a favor to Lynn because it was personal. They gave him the go ahead, but Tom needed help. So he asks his good old buddy Dale Gordon to help him, and you're like, Dale Gordon. So Dale Gordon had been friends with Todd for a few years now. They were both former army men and they both bonded about it. Dale was another Norman.

He was eating up Todd's stories and he loved it. Todd even got a job at Dale's mechanic auto shop for a little bit, but he ruined everything for Dale. So you know those lift that you put the cars on and they lift them up? Well, for some reason Todd convinced another employee to drive off the lift and The car to Knows Drive thankfully the driver was un-injured but

Dales entire life was done his reputation was ruined the car owner was suing him He lost valuable equipment and almost immediately after he had to file for bankruptcy and his business went under Wow, and he's still close with that dude? Not only that, he respected Todd. In fact, he thought Todd was the epitome of what every man should strive to be. Oh, M.G. So Todd convinced Dale to invest in his dad's fencing company and because you were gonna make some hot returns,

that's what he said. But Dale did it and it seemed like Dale would do anything for Todd, including insurance fraud. One day, Todd's car was stolen and later found it in alleyway, riddled with bullets, and Dale admitted, yeah, I did it so that Todd could claim insurance. Todd could basically talk Dale into anything, including murder. Todd started talking to Dale about, hey man, you know how I told you about my IRA days? Well, there was a woman that I fought with in the IRA and she's like this brave, crazy, amazing woman. Like she literally saved children and she sacrificed her life so many times for the cause and like

she just had something in her, you know? And we all looked up to her but she moved back to the States and she's married to this abusive alcoholic and he's like threatening to kill her if she even speaks about divorce and I mean he's cheating on her and it's just it's just disgusting no and I really wish I could do something about her husband yeah that person that brave woman is none other than Lynn and she never had even stepped foot in Northern Ireland. So I don't even have a vague clue, again, on why Todd wanted to kill Dean Noy so bad.

I don't believe that Todd cared about Lynn. I don't think that he had the capacity to really love someone. I think that he saw her as a cheap thrill, and maybe this whole murder plot was another thrill. Maybe Todd felt like he was finally living the assassin life, right? So in the end, Dale was promised money from Dean's life insurance, $10,000, and he went with it. So for a while, Dale and Todd start going on these missions, basically driving to Portland

to stalk Dean and keep track of his movements. They were eyes on the target, that type of like walkie-talkie bullshit. They literally bought walkie-talkies, okay? His bizarre. Meanwhile, Carol is working all day, coming home to pay the bills and cooking clean, and the two men start coming up with their plans on how to murder Dean and the plans were idiotic at best. They said, when Dean goes on a business trip, he's going to stay at the hotel.

So we're going to go to the hotel, and one of us is going to pretend to be Dean and say, oh shit, lady, we just lost our key. And they're going to give us a key, and then we're going to go wait in his room and ambush him. Neither of them considered the fact that I don't know. The clerk would recognize that neither of them were Dean or maybe when they found Dean's body later in the hotel room, they would be like,

wait a minute, there was something suspicious, these two dudes pretended to be him and asked for a spare key. They didn't go through with their plan, not because they realized it was stupid. They still thought their plan was smart. They just couldn't time it right. So they started visiting Lynn Moore and like really soaking in the assassin vibes. Like they spent a lot of time just talking about like yeah, assassin life, assassin life. Yeah, they brought

plastic knives to show Lynn. And she's like, why do you bring plastic knives? And they're like, just in case we can't bring a gun. This is metal detector proof. A plastic knife? Yeah. And then was just like, that makes so much sense. Like, you were so cool as a marine that you can kill someone with a plastic knife. They brought latex gloves and they were showing Lynn all of this. But, um, you know, when they didn't do it, Todd started to wonder, is Dale the problem? Maybe Dale is too flaky. So then he called up his other buddy, Norman Daniels III. Like Dale, Norman was naive, overly trusting and in a really tough spot

So Dale and Norman they were both like financially not okay Todd had offered Norman and Dale some under the table work for his dad's fencing company And they just really needed more money So Todd's like Norman you want to be an assassin? I mean, I know you need the money. I can help you and immediately he starts talking about how much Dean was a horrible guy And then was this amazing woman who fought in the IRA and Todd promised Norman that he wouldn't have hands-on roles in this situation That he was just being used as backup. So Norman is like, yeah, I want to be back up So this is where the story fully goes off the rails I mean if it wasn't already but like fully no breaks off the rails off the handles

Todd and Norman and Dale play live- action assassin role playing games called World of Chaos as preparation. He created the game in his teenage years and had been fine-tuning it till it was gory and wild enough, where you would enter into the game as a player. And you could be anything. A cop, an assassin, a military driver, a person, just a regular civilian, an XCIA operative, and you would sit around the table narrating the live action role playing game. Like Dungeons & Dragons.

And then you would use dice to see if your abilities would go up. So if you got like two fours on the dice, you roll two fours, you're like, I just bought 20 machine guns. And I'm going to machine gun you. So they played live action roleplays of murdering someone to prepare to finally do it in person. Todd also made the guys watch movies that were about killings and assassinations and look after all the people that we've talked about, I'm never quite talked about people like this. So after that the boys went shopping for guns, the murder weapon,

which were all bought under Norman's name but with with Todd's money, along with disguises, you know, to make themselves look more Oregonian, they said. Because they're going from California to Oregon. They literally called it their Oregonian disguises. It was a button-up shirt, tie, socks, shoes, socks, and a raincoat, even though it wasn't raining outside when the hit was supposed to take place. But, you know, nothing gets past these guys. Todd had everyone practice shooting the weapons, and completely unprompted by Todd, Dale said he took it a step further and he would go shooting neighborhood cats at night. Like literally why? Everyone seemed to

be gearing up for a very very serious hit. Even Lynn was tracking Dean's habits, schedule and information for Todd, even giving them a copy of her house key and car keys, and the final plan was that they would attack Dean in the garage when he pulled in from work and kill him in the garage. Like make it look like an attempted car jacking and car mugging gone wrong. Todd even told Dale and Norman, we're gonna make it real sloppy, okay? So the three load up in their car, head to organ, and this is when Lynn starts freaking out. I guess it finally felt real for her, and she flipped out and somehow diverted the plan. She told Dean to take her car to work instead so that the guys couldn't track him anymore,

and it was this whole ordeal. And after their failed attempt, they get into a hotel room, and Todd is screaming at Lynn. We are not done here. We had a deal. You can't just call it off. I'm killing Dean whether you like it or not. So the new plan that Lynn had no idea about was to break into the house and kill Dean. It was a complete shit show.

Around 11 p.m., Todd and the boys pull up at the house. Everyone was home. And Todd went straight to the front door because he had the key. And he was using the walkie-talkie to talk to the other guys who were waiting around the house like the back of the house. And Todd kept trying to put the copy of the key in the door knob, but he couldn't see well. And he screams, add his accomplices through the walkie-talkie.

I can't get the door open, the key won't work. So basically, Norman and Dale are like, what the fuck? Why would you scream that? Because, you know, it's 11 p.m. There could be neighbors, there could be people walking their dogs. So they freak out and make a break for it. And Todd shouts at the front door,

the cops are called, we gotta go. No cops were called. Like, they basically drew the attention on themselves and then scared themselves. Just picture it. Todd, Norman and Dale dressed up in their Oregonian disguises, dashing down a residential street at 11 PM,

each with a loaded gun in one hand screaming, abort mission, we've been caught. Todd was panicking so much that he threw his silencer over someone's fence. Like why would he do that? He took it off and threw it over the fence. So here's the evidence. Yeah.

So Norman and Dale were so shocked. They stopped in their tracks and ran back for it, but Todd kept sprinting like lunatic. They jump in the car and they start speeding home, well, to the hotel. And Todd is the driver and everyone is like, can you slow down? Like, you're speeding.

If a patrol car pulls us over, we've got weapons. So he slows down and then he decides to swerve over right up to the yard of some random person's residential house and people were inside the lights were on. You could see them moving around. And he gets out and starts throwing his gun into the bush. And Dale is like hissing at him. Are you fucking crazy?

Put that back in the car before the cops show up. So he goes into the bush and digs out the gun and then puts it in the trunk and drives back to the hotel. They're not on drugs. They're not on drugs. So, I mean, that's insane. You would think that this would snap Dailin Norman out of it, right?

But nope, they were disappointed that they weren't getting paid. And Todd reassured them, don't worry, boys. There's gonna be another hit soon. And don't ask me why Todd Garton decided in this moment that he was gonna kill his wife. The hit was no longer on Dean. It's gonna be his own wife. What? The one that's paying all the bills for him?

Yeah, so it's speculated that it's because Carol got pregnant with their first child, and he didn't want kids. So he started telling Dale and Norman that his wife was cheating on him and that he was scared that the baby wasn't even his. In fact, he was certain that and Norman that his wife was cheating on him and that he was scared that the baby wasn't even his In fact, he was certain that it wasn't his which side note Carol was not cheating and DNA evidence would confirm later that the baby was his But who cares about that right? He just wanted an excuse to kill Carol Why I don't know but what's crazy is knowing full while that he's trying to kill her He's still laid there fantasizing about their life as new parents and about how how they were going to name the son. If it was a son, it was going to be Jesse James.

If it was a boy, and Todd made it very clear, he didn't want anyone calling their son JJ as a nickname. Carol didn't care, she just cared that her baby was going to be healthy, and she was so excited. You know, her whole life revolved around trying to be the best mom she could be. While she was pregnant, Todd even suggested they go up to Portland to meet up with some old friends. Carol thought Lynn was long gone out of the picture, so she didn't know that Todd had dropped her off at an old friend's house and then went to go have sex with Lynn in his car. And sex with Lynn always seemed to strengthen Todd's resolve to murder, and it also made him talk Carol into getting life insurance with him. They both got about $125,000 on each of their

lives. He said, you know, because we're having a kid, we got to prep these types of things now. So now that they were ready, it was time. Norman was asking a lot about the company. He really expected that money to come in with killing Dean and that felt through and he needed money and he figured, you know, killing people was lucrative. So Todd figured, okay, this is great. I'm going to have him kill my wife. Todd warned Norman. Before you join the company will need you to perform a test assassination. After warned you though it's not gonna be easy. They always have you kill someone that you know someone up close and personal. You have to pass a physical and give a blood sample. Even Lynn got

involved and pretended to be someone that also worked for the company. She's like I never told you this all the times that I saw you, but like, I'm also part of the company. And the two of them, they start feeding Norman Lies again about Ireland. They said that Carol was on the right side, but eventually she went dark and joined the enemy because now apparently Carol was in Ireland too. And because of Carol, a lot of innocent lives were gone.

They kept telling Norman and he believed it. And then Norman got his letter from the company. Remember, he opened it in front of Todd, and if he paid any attention, he would notice that the wax seal was the imprint of the US Navy sealed diving pin, so it wasn't even this random company. And before he opened it, Todd screamed,

wait, hold on, I warn you though, before you open that. If you open that, you're gonna have to do what it tells you in that package or else you'll end up dead. Norman's like, well, I already opened the seal, so it looks like I'm gonna have to do what it tells you in that package or else you'll end up dead. Romance like, well, I already opened the seal. So it looks like I'm gonna have to go through with this. And he started opening it and reading it. There were articles discussing an anonymous woman that planted a bomb inside of a British bookstore in Ireland. And Todd hinted that the hit might be, you know, Carol, because Carol did that.

And inside were multiple pictures of Carol. And Norman remembered seeing some of these pictures in Todd's house. Carol, because Carol did that. And inside, we're multiple pictures of Carol. And Norman remembered seeing some of these pictures in Todd's house. He starts freaking out. He's like, no way. I can't do this. Todd is like, I can't.

I'm torn. You know, I want a safe Carol. She's pregnant with my child. But if I get caught saving Carol, I'm a dead man. You have to do this. There's no way out the company doesn't play. So Norma hasn't caught on. No.

You think it's absolutely real. So he thinks that Todd is setting him up, but he thinks the company is real. So he thinks that Todd told this shadowy figure that he wants his wife dead. And the shadowy figure was like, you know what, we don't really care who's dead. So yeah, send it.

Yeah. Todd's side ran his hands through his hair and side. Well, at least it wasn't me. This is his reaction to learning that his wife that his eight months pregnant is gonna be assassinated. Wow. In the end, Norman thought that he would die if he didn't do as the company asked.

Literally what? So he started planning for Carol's murder and he was talking to Lynn about it. She was like his emotional support during the whole process. Mainly because it was obvious that Norman thought Lynn was very pretty. Norman said, I suspected Lynn's involvement with the company and Lynn had told me multiple times that she hated Carol

because of everything that happened in Ireland. And it was just my assumption that Carol was a bad person. And because Norman felt obligated to make Lynn happy and make Todd happy and now the company happy, he just felt like he had to go along with it. Also this is another strange turn in the case, but Lynn and Norman started playing on an online role-playing game called Vampire Tavern, where they would start cyber-sexting each other in the chat rooms.

It was weird. Lynn would text Norman, I can't even fathom why you're so attractive and your mind is so brilliant. I would gladly give you more than I take. That's the story of my life. And he responded. I step behind her He's like narrating roleplaying so she is Lynn is her He bends close to her neck and gently places her on the couch. She responds She mounts him and takes control and starts over them. She reaches for a dagger on the nightstand. She cuts herself so she won't climb ax immediately.

I'm so disturbed. And somewhere along this bizarre mission, Todd starts sending an on-and-se emails to Dean threatening him that, um, because Lynn told Todd that Dean was embezzling money from his job, I don't know how much of this is true. Everyone is so strange here. So Todd is sending those weird emails of like, I know what you did. Stealing money is a crime. And Norman was just looking for excuses for not killing Carol. And finally he got an email from the company, aka Todd, that threatened Norman's son's life. And

that was the final push for Norman to execute Carol. So while Todd and Dale were out at a gun show creating an alibi, Carol and Norman were there first too, so they were all together. So it was Todd, Dale, Norman, and Carol. And Carol, she's eight months pregnant, so she was like, you know what guys, I think I'm gonna go home.

And so Todd is like, this is the perfect chance, Norman, you gotta go. So Norman's like, you know what guys, I'm tired too. I'm just gonna go home with Carol and I'll wait for you at your house Todd. So the two go home, you know, they're just like being friendly, they're watching TV and the living room and Norman's debating if you should just shoot her right then and there, just on the couch, but before he had the guts to do it, she went over to the bedroom. You know, she's eight months pregnant and she tells them I'm just gonna lay down for a second.

Norman leaves, he leaves, he leaves the house. He starts driving around and starts getting frustrated and all he could hear were the threats against his son. So he drives back to the house, parks right in front of the house and enters, like doesn't care if any neighbors see him nothing. Tries to make small talk with Carol while she's on the bed and confused, like why are you talking to me? He had the gun in his pocket, safety off, ready to go, and Norman said he just kept thinking

about his son's life and how he was at risk. He said I have to do this or else he's gonna die. So he whipped out the gun and for a brief second he saw the fear and carol's eyes. And he shot her. She was still alive and sliding off the bed and he shot her again in the stomach. The shot pierced through her womb and her unborn baby. The last shot was to her head. And Norman left. Todd and Dale got home, they rushed to call

the police, but Todd was really weird on the phone with the operator, yet saying, the streets need to be closed off, I think the gunman is still in the neighborhood. Tell me when the medics get here, I want to know like a ETA, like exactly what time. The dispatch was so weirded out by him, they strid a bastim, is there something you're not telling us Todd? And when the EMTs got there, they attempted to revive her, but both Carol and the unborn child were pronounced dead at the scene. Police initially suspected it was a robbery got wrong, but there were no signs of forced entry or struggle, and someone had been thinking. They had picked up the bullet casings after they were done. So almost immediately, the police

had their man, Norman. I mean, everybody knew that he was the last one to see her alive. Within a few hours, he was the last one to see her alive. Within a few hours, he was confessing to everything. In his house, they found the bullet casings, the murder weapon, everything. But Todd, Lynn, and Dale wouldn't be arrested for another month. But everyone knew they were guilty. Even at Carol's funeral, Lynn was there. And Todd was literally crying on her shoulder.

What? And when Lynn was charged with murder, she said, I had to reread the paperwork, which is very long, by the way, because she was shocked that she was charged with murder. It's giving the same energy as D from the IHOP murder. The whole, oh my God, I had no idea that I could be charged for this when all I needed was help, plan,

and push the murder forward. Lynn agreed to plead guilty and testify against Todd in exchange for 25 years to life. Dale Gordon pled guilty and also testified against Todd for 10 years. We so Lynn turned on Todd. Yeah. At the very end. At the very end.

I'm even surprised that she did if I'm being honest. Yeah, because it sounds like she's going to die for him. Yeah. Norman Daniels pled guilty. He's the one that pulled the trigger. He was sentenced to 50 years to life. And Todd was the only one who pled not guilty. He was sentenced to the death penalty, but he was not executed, and he is still waiting on death row.

And that is the story of the company. The whole thing is chaotic. I don't even think I would believe this if this were a movie about high schoolers and a conspiracy to commit murder. It's like a bunch of kids playing... Yes. Playing crime. And the fact that scares me the most is that all three of these guys were serving in the military at one point.

And this is like what they're thinking and how they think and how their brain works. I'm terrified. And I think it's just even more sad because I don't even think Carol saw the warning signs, you know, because there were none. It's just all sorts of bizarre. I don't know how to feel about it. What are your thoughts? Well, stay safe.

And I'll see you guys on Wednesday for the main episode. Bye.