Rotten Mango - #223: The “Blood Brothers” That Killed Their Father Because Their Hot New Boyfriend Told Them To

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

His two sons were out playing in the back while he supervised through the kitchen window. The boys were 13 and 12. What should have been a heartwarming moment, watching his two sons play and get along, was instead filled with anxiety. His friend asked, “what’s wrong?” “I don’t trust Derek.” His friend was confused. He peered at the window to see the boys playing on the swing set. “I don’t trust him. I’ve read the diaries. I’ve seen the pictures. Look at them. Look at them, they look like they’re plotting something.” Two hours later - Terry would be found dead. Both sons missing. House on fire. Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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in all states or situations, prices vary based on how you buy. Betta Bing Betta Boo Welcome to this week's main episode of Rotten Mangle. I'm your host Stephanie Sue. His two sons are out playing in the backyard. He's supervising through the window. You've got the whole setup. This is a loving dad of two sons who are wild

13 year old Derek 12 year old Alex. I mean he's got to keep an eye out to make sure that neither of them kill each other or kill someone That's a very bad way of putting it The boys were getting along for once. Okay, the two boys were kicking around the autumn leaves sway swaying back and forth on the backyard swings. It should have been a moment that was filled with love and warmth. But instead, the father Terry, he looked concerned. He looked anxious. His friend is asking him, what's wrong, Terry?

Why are you looking like that? Just don't trust Derek. What? You're 13-year-old? Why don't you trust your 13-year-old? You think he's gonna hit his little brother when you're not looking? I don't trust him. I read the diaries.

I've seen the pictures. Mike, Terry's best friend, his eyebrows scrunched together because he didn't understand it. I mean, what kind of parent is scared of their own 13 year old child? But he could tell that Terry was serious. And he didn't know if he should keep pressing for more information, he just uh kind of let it out in the open. Terry continued. I'm gonna sleep on the couch tonight. They're gone? Yeah. Huh? Why? I'm gonna have Derek in his room and Alex and the other. I just don't trust them. Mike was really confused. He looked out the window to see what the kids were doing

and they were just being kids. They were sitting on the deck whispering to each other, they were concentrating, Mike thought, okay well they're 13 and 12. Maybe they're building a fantasy land in the back. Maybe they're thinking about shooting rockets in which side is whose turf. You know, things that little boys think about. But Terry didn't see it like he did. He looked at his friend and sinisterly stated, it looks like they're plotting something doesn't it? And two hours later, Terry would be found dead. And both of his sons would

be missing. What? As always, full show notes are available at ronmingopodcast.com, but there is an incredible book on this case, hands down the deepest deep dive that you will find, which I'm surprised there isn't more information out there on this case because it is such an important topic. And please check out the book Angels of Death by Gary C. King. It took the author a great deal of time, resources, and probably emotional strength to just sort through all the case files, court documents, police files, to talk to law enforcement, interview as many people as he possibly could, members of the family, friends, teachers, neighbors,

I mean, anybody that he could get a hold of, he was interviewing them. I mean, the sheer amount of work that it would take to sort through all of that, I can't even wrap my head around it. Please go give it a read, and without being said, the diary began. Remember he found the diary, he found the pictures. What did dad find that is so terrifying inside these kids' diaries? It's not even what you imagine. You know, when I first looked into this case, I'm thinking, okay, it's going to be like one of those killer kids' diaries where they're like, I hate this person and then scratch out their name and like, I want

to kill kill kill. You know, it wasn't like that. The diary began. Biography. Do not read. I mean, it seemed pretty typical, like the warnings of a 12 year old boy who didn't want anyone to get a deep look inside of his brain, inside of his feelings. He wrote,

My life used to be cloudy before I made friends with Rick. Rick let me see what I didn't understand. Life isn't about having a job. Life isn't about importance and fame and money, my ultimate goal in life now is what his is. It's about sharing your life with somebody. Before I met Rick, I was straight, but now I'm gay. Okay, so a 12 year old boy finding his sexuality, understandable, normal, nothing crazy.

He even wrote, Alex David King loves Ricky Martin Chavis so so much. Always and forever, I love you so so much and I will always love you. Another note read, I love you Rick. Nothing about this diary indicated any homicidal intent against his own father or any destructive intent. So why did the family house burst into flames not too long after? November 26, 2001. Just bear with me, okay, because these answers get confusing. I'm gonna try to do it in the way that it kind of unraveled, right? A neighbor, in a nice little subdivision in Florida, heard a weird crackle pop noise.

Kind of like a firecracker. It's November 26. There's no, what is this? I don't even think it was Thanksgiving that year that day, but it's not the Fourth of July. It's not a regular holiday to hear that But it wasn't as loud as a firecracker. It was just a strange thing to hear at like 1.30 in the morning So being the nosy good-doing neighbor he pulls his curtain to the side and starts glancing around and oh my god His neighbor's freaking house is on fire

He's like what the heck jump over his bed leaps to his phone. 911, you gotta come to this address. My neighbor's house is on fire. I don't know if there's people inside. He's got like two kids. Please hurry, I see his car in the driveway. Oh my god, I think they're home. They could be sleeping. The firefighters rushed to the scene.

They find that the front door was locked from the inside. Which is incredibly dangerous if you, I don't know, ever have a house fire. But basically some parents would do this if they had children that were super, super wild, that would just open the door and run out. So it was dead bolted from the inside. Okay, so that makes it's hard for them to get in, right? So they bust down the door and the smoke, they can smell it.

They rush into the house and, you know, the fire seemed to have started in the primary bedroom, and they rush into the living room and you know, the fire seemed to have started in the primary bedroom. And they rush into the living room and they're standing around in their fire gear and their masks and everything staring at the couch because the father, Terry, was dead on the couch. His legs were propped up on the sofa. He had a Lion King pillow and blanket, a cup of coffee near him, and on the other side of the room there was a plate of food. So they're thinking, okay, well well maybe he died of smoke inhalation.

The smoke was billowing into the room now. The firefighters look up and they're like, hmm, we've seen enough at our drops. We've seen the craziest of fires started by space eaters, dehumidifiers, the most common mundane household objects. We know better than to think that Terry was killed by a fire. They're staring at his body, and it was clear that it wasn't the fire that killed him. There was blood splatter on the walls of the living room. Terry King had sat down on the couch to enjoy a cup of coffee, and someone had come to

hit him over the head, violently killing him, and then they set the house on fire. Terry King was pronounced dead, and his two young teenage sons, 13-year-old Derek and 12-year-old Alex King, they were missing. I mean, it was pretty clear to the police that the kids had probably murdered their own father, right? That's not the mystery part. They set fire to their own house, they escaped the locked home, they ran off, but why? That's immediately their thought. Yeah, so the police bring in Tar's closest friend and, you know, they're saying, look, we're really sorry for your loss. We know that he's your friend, but we just need to know, is there any reason at all that

the boys might want him dead? What was he like as a parent? Was he abusive? Did he hit them? Did he abuse them? You know, the friend looked like he was kind of trapped in a tough situation. On one hand, he probably wanted to tell the police the truth. On the other hand, he doesn't want a bad mouth, his best friend, who is also now deceased,

murdered. He used to like, stare down his kids if you consider that abuse. I don't know. One time, they were over in the living room, and I didn't notice that Alex, the younger one, was doing anything bad, but Terry yelled at him so loud out of nowhere. I even jumped in shocked. I mean, I tried to mediate. I told him, you know, Terry, you need to pay equal attention to the boys, and you need to treat them the same. Because I could tell, you know, the younger one, Alex, he was getting jealous that the older one was getting more attention, more affection. But Terry shut me down, and he

told me, no one is going to tell me how to raise my boys. Thinking about it now, I do think he was a little controlling, he's very strict. You don't want the kids out and about socializing with other kids' their age? They were kind of isolated, I think. They were cooped up in that house day in, day out. Okay, well, did you ever witness any physical abuse between Terry and the boys? Umm... Well, Alex did couldn't fight in me once that Terry hit him.

You know, the boys were having a hard time with Terry recently, and well, I don't know how serious they were at the time, and they did casually mention that they wanted their daddy dead. Obviously, I thought they were being boys, I thought they were exaggerating. Had I known that Terry would be dead, I would have reported it to the police. So what kind of abuse do you think was going on in the house? Well, I know about this green room. It's just a room that's green, right?

No furniture. You would make the boys sit in there and he would stare at them in silence for God knows how long. The boys told me it would drive them crazy. Terry called it their therapy sessions. So this is Terry's best friend, letting them know what's going on. And I mean, it's pretty damning evidence, right?

So the police stand up and they say, okay, well, we're gonna let you know if anything else comes up and thank you for your time, thank you for cooperating. Yeah, I mean, no problem. I just hope you guys find the boys. Yeah, well, us too. Oh, and Rick? Yeah? Sorry about your loss. And Rick walked out.

What? The diary. This is the dad's best friend? Yeah. That's also dating the son? Yeah. What? Yeah.

So what happened? Okay. Parenting is a tricky business that I would know absolutely nothing about, right? But what's interesting is that everybody has a different idea of what a perfect parent looks like. That's why people get so heated when people start giving tips and tricks on how to be a good parent. So to some people, Terry was this amazing,

beautiful dad. To others, he was a psychological torture and monster of a man. It just really depends on who you ask. But here is the truth that everyone can agree on. Terry had a really rough life. I'm gonna be honest, he was dealt some shitty shitty cards. For one, he was a high school dropout who never had a stable job. He lived in Pensacola, Florida, which is a really nice place to live, if you have money, which I guess supplies

everywhere. But in Pensacola, it said that it's glaringly obvious, the haves and the have-naughts, and Terry was definitely a have-naught. He was not rich. He was working in printing plants, usually the night shifts, maybe $7 an hour. But Janet Little didn't care. Janet Little was a woman that he runs in too. And they instantly hit it off. She's like, I don't care about your finances. I think you're very attractive. Let's get together. So quickly, the two move in together and they just start popping out the kids. First, they have Derek a year later. They have Alex. Interestingly, the two lived together for nearly eight years and they never got married. And more interesting than that, after Derek and Alex, Janet had two more kids, twins, but they weren't terries. So I don't

know what their relationship status was. Maybe they were in an open relationship, maybe she cheated on him. It's unclear, but the two didn't break up. So Janet stayed with Terry and he informally adopted the two twins because he couldn't really formally adopt them because he wasn't even married to Janet at the time. So the six of them are like this cute little family

for like one full day. Because six mouths on $7 an hour, I don't care if you work every single second of your life. There is no way you can feed all of those mouths with that kind of wage. So Terry and Janet, they start arguing. They start talking about the finances. They're stressed and finally, they break up.

Janet changes her name completely to Kelly Marino, gets a job as a nightclub dancer, and she just left. Jenna was not a good mom. Like there's no way to spin it to make it seem like she was a good mom because she just wasn't a good mom. She kind of reminds me of those people and this is going to sound mean, but I'm trying to be as objective as possible.

But from what I gather, she reminds me of one of those people that should just never have been a mom in the first place. So I don't know, maybe she's changed since then, but it seemed like to her, the most important relationship in her life was her current romantic relationship, more than the relationship that she had with her kids. So she would get married, get divorced several times

by the time that Derek is five years old, and she just never spent time with her kids. Like ever, she basically just left Derek and Alex and sure she would visit once in a while but she was never really around. She wasn't effectively, you know, part of their upbringing. Janet would later say, I was stressed about the finances. We were stretched then. It was tough, you know, getting by was six people in the family. I love my kids, but the stress of my situation caused me to freak out. And I just met somebody else and I laughed, okay, I panicked. So that's how Janet leaves. Terry didn't panic. Okay, I don't know if it's because he didn't have

the choice or the luxury really. He was just struggling with the kids. I mean, it got so bad that he even brought the boys into this like heritage Christian academy. Is he raising four kids now? So the twins just are kind of in and out of the picture. So Janet would take them to Kentucky to be with her parents and then she would bring them back and then at one point Terry had them. But eventually Terry is just with Derek and Alex. So he brings them to the Heritage Christian Academy, which is almost like this boarding situation for like a Christian Academy. You put your kids there and they stay there until you can get your finances together. I mean, it seems like a really nice place. But for some reason, the whole place just Like a Christian Academy, you put your kids there and they stay there until you can get your finances together

I mean it seems like a really nice place But for some reason the whole place just shuts down within eight months Yeah, so they were like okay, well you got to take your kids back because we're close for business So Terry was going back to being confused on what to do and his friends were like hey you should play your kids up for fostering Like if you can't do it you can't do it at least it least it's not like adoption. At least with fostering, if you can get your life together, you can get your kids back. Right? And you can still see them on the weekends. Like, this is what's best for the kids. So that's what he did. Terry sent Derek and Alex to be fostered, not by the same family, by the way.

Alex would come back within a month of being fostered. He just couldn't do it. I mean, he just couldn't adjust. He hated it. It was recommended that Terry take him back because Alex was starting to feel abandoned. And that was the last thing that they needed. And it's not like Alex seemed to be needing protection from Terry, like there was no one in the foster care system

that was like, oh, these are really bad parents. It was just a choice that Terry had made. Now, all Terry cared about was work in Alex. Once he got Alex back, that was his whole life. That's it. A friend of his said, I've never seen Terry around another woman in a non-work environment. He didn't care to find a new wife or a new girlfriend. He just wanted to be a good parent. Now, do I think that Terry was perfect? No, but he tried his best. And Alex, Alex was a good kid. He would wait around the break room

while Terry was at work waiting for his dad to get off. He would just be reading a book or something just really well behaved, could keep himself entertained while his dad was working. Another friend who actually lived with Terry and Alex for like an entire year. I mean, I feel like they have a really good perspective. They mean, I feel like they have a really good perspective. They said, I feel like they had a really good relationship.

I mean, Alex was well mannered. Terry was a loving dad. I never even heard Terry ever yell at Alex during the whole year that I lived with them. Look, a lot of people said or claimed, you know, that Terry is a control freak. And I would have to say he was protective of his sons. Yes, but never controlling. I mean, I would imagine Terry say he was protective of his sons, yes, but never controlling.

I mean, I would imagine Terry would give up just about anything for his kids to have something. I think that says a lot, right? Terry was a good man who just kind of had a string of bad luck in his life, but he just never gave up. He worked hard, he tried to get that one foot forward, but if we're being honest, he wasn't perfect. He like just did not, there's so many mistakes that he made. Okay, he had a criminal record, but it's not gonna be in the way that you think. Terry was arrested for bad checks,

which means you would write a check. You get a product or service. This is back when people accept a check. You get a product or service knowing that you don't have money in the account, and it's just a worthless piece of paper that you're writing them. And then later, you just rip them off. You effectively rip them off and you can get arrested for that.

But Terry wasn't out there writing bad checks in the thousands of dollars and barring TVs and designer goods. Terry was writing bad checks for like $90 to pay for just straight-up groceries. He always regretted it later, but what could he do? I mean, he felt so hopeless. He needed to feed his freaking kid. Sometimes the only way that Terry would cope with his life was to get drunk. I mean, a situation looked endless.

It looked really bleak and he saw no light at the end of the tunnel. He's responsible for his child. And so sometimes, you know, when it got really dark in his mind, he would go get drunk, but this is really unexcusable. He would drive home drunk. Thank God, he never heard or killed anybody,

but he did have a few DUIs. So when you have a DUI, your license gets suspended and you shouldn't be driving anymore. Well, he would drive to work because he felt like he had no choice, he had to go make money for his kid to feed him groceries so that he doesn't end up riding another bad check that week. So then he would get arrested for driving with a suspended license.

So those were his crimes and yeah it's pretty bad, but I wouldn't throw him in jail with the sex offenders and call him names and hope that he never sees the light of day. Like that's not really how I feel about his crimes. The DUI is horrible, don't get me wrong, he literally could have killed an innocent person, but I can see why this escalated to the point that it did. I'm not justifying it, but I can see why he did what he did. So anyway, with Terry, it seems like Alex is getting everything that he needs to succeed. It's not much, but it's enough for him to thrive. That makes sense. Alex was placed in advanced classes by the time that he's in sixth grade. The kid is really smart. He's quiet, never raises his hand too much,

just very well-behaved. That's how everybody never raises his hand too much, just very well behaved. That's how everybody describes this kid. Never causes trouble. Later, people will speculate, well, he didn't cause trouble because his dad was so abusive. That's why he was so well behaved. Others said, no, it's because his dad was a good parent and he was a good kid. That's why he was so well behaved. It's just really hard to say, because there's a few people that can give us some insight

on Terry's life But other than that nobody really knew much about Terry He really kept himself he would work quietly in the yard of the house that he was renting He would upkeep the place he would go to work finish like that was it a lot of people saw Terry and Alex together And it just looked like a normal dad and son duo for a while there was no apparent trouble That is until Derek got back. Okay, this is when the whole place just starts crumbling like it's hit by an earthquake. Before then, Derek seemed to get along with the Lays. He was fostered by Frank and Nancy

Lays, and the Lays were really well off. They lived a couple towns over, and honestly, this could have been an amazing turn of events for Derek. Yes, Terry was a good dad by all accounts, at least as of right now, but the lays were, you know, they had a stable home. They were established in the community. They had a pool in their backyard. Derek got his own bedroom, a PlayStation toys, unlimited TV access, like this kid was living a very privileged life in the lay's house. They would provide Derek with opportunities and privileges that he would have never got otherwise.

He went to Sunday school, Bible study, he was in all the sports that he wanted to try, the lays would pay for it all, he was in the church's youth fellowship program, I mean, everything was good. The lays really liked Derek, they said that he was very intelligent, very personable until he wasn't. They said it was like a switch that just flipped. Out of nowhere, Derek started acting out. He refused to do anything, like put effort into schoolwork.

His grades plummeted. He starts stealing from school. Like his classmates wallets, his teachers wallets. He stole someone's wallet on more than one occasion and then he used the stolen money to buy porn. Then he brought it home to the Lays house, and the Lays are super, super religious, so it was probably extra frustrating for them. And then came the fire.

Not figuratively, literally. The kid was consumed by fire, fascinated, really. Derek would get these cigarette lighters, these matches, and just stare at the lit flame. He hid firecrackers underneath his bed, which you have like a different level of trust when you sleep on top of firecrackers on a nightly basis. Like I wouldn't even know how to do that. Nancy Lay started to feel unsafe with Derek in the house. The couple were older, they had grandchildren that they were taking care of in the house, young grandchildren. And Nancy started to feel like Derek might accidentally

or purposefully hurt one of the young kids. Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths watches the baby.

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Or wherever you get your shows. I'm not a big guy man, but I love being that 30 motherf***er. Nancy just felt like there was something wrong with their Psychologically speaking. She said, no really, there was something wrong with their psychologically speaking. She said, no really, there was something wrong with them. He was extremely manipulative, I think he had holes in his conscious. That is the best way that I can describe him. He lied constantly. He never showed any remorse when he was caught.

The lace suspected that he was getting high too. Just sniffing lighter fluid to get high. Why did they think that when they have no proof? Well, this is where the lace start getting a little wild with their theories. They're like, we think that Derek was a little drug addict, because we think Terry was a drug addict. Do they have proof for this? Actually, no, because toxic ecology tests taken at the time of Terry's autopsy indicate no drugs, no alcohol used in his body. At the time of his passing at least, there's also no other proof that he did drugs. But they speculated aggressively that Terry was addicted to drugs.

They said, you know, whenever he came over, just acted strange. He spoke in monotones. His eyes were always glazed over and I just felt like he was taking drugs. So Derek's behavior is only escalating. Whether this is a cry for help or I don't know, some people saw it as manipulation. Personally, I think it was more of a cry for help, but Derek starts trying to commit suicide multiple times in really alarming ways. So he would manually choke himself to the point where he would go red in the face with

his bare hands and his fingers would leave bruise marks around his neck. Other times, he would get razor blades and cut himself, which, side note, the laze tried to prevent it, but they always found razor blades hidden inside of his room. He's like 11, 12, 12? Yeah. They also found out Derek had taken a liking to slashing up his entire mattress with those razor blades. So that was the final straw. For some reason it was the mattress. I don't know. They couldn't do it anymore. September 2001, they called Terry and they're like, look, we tried our best.

We can't do it. You know, we need to send him to another foster care family, someone who's better equipped. Or if you want, we're willing to finance this. We want to send him to military school to straighten him out. And he's like, no, you're not sending my son to no military school. I want him back. And the ladies are like, well, we don't want to give

your son back to you. And if you're wondering why, it's because Derek would constantly cry to Frank and Nancy that Terry was a control freak. He said, I can't go back to my dad's house. I can't go back. Alex hates him. I hate him. He says that he wants my dad dead.

And I don't want to go home. Dad uses mind games Very interesting thing to say but Terry wanted his kids back So he was gonna get his kid back. I mean they couldn't really legally argue with that So October 2001 Derek moves back in with his dad and Alex and that is when everything starts going downhill Terry went from being father of the year to having no freaking idea how to parent Derek Terry was losing his literal mind. He had no idea what to even do.

He's consulting with his friends. Who thought, yeah, I mean, okay, 13 year old boy, 12 year old boy, it's not gonna be smooth sailing, but they were pretty surprised. Terry was, you know, the way he was talking about his kids, he was genuinely terrified of them, especially Derek. Like he genuinely seemed scared of his own son. Derek wouldn't even call Terry Dad, he would only refer to him as Terry, and even Alex started doing that as well, and Alex was just being influenced by Derek to act out to smoke cigarettes. I mean,

the house turned into like this war zone. On top of that, Janet's mom, so this is their maternal grandmother. She did try to get custody of the kids, but it didn't end up working, but she did claim that Derek had ADHD and he was prescribed riddeline for it, which is similar to Adderall, and Terry decided to take him off of it. A lot of people think, well there are speculations that Terry was just like a very strange parent, like why would you take your kid off of something that they were literally prescribed by a doctor, right? But people do see his side of it. Derek was allegedly sniffing the riddle in.

And allegedly, he had this really strong fascination with drugs. So I think Terry kind of assumed that he had an addictive personality or that he was getting addicted to it or something weird was going on. But it's still not a good idea to cut someone off cold turkey, the way that Terry did. And for some reason, he also took away

all the entertainment stuff from the house, stereo, radio, TV, everything. Terry hinted at people that he was worried that Derek was learning bad things on TV. They're like, what are you talking about? He said that Derek was picking up tips and tricks on violent things by watching crime shows, cop shows, and he was terrified. It was weird.

So it just felt like the boys were being punished for acting out, then they were bored out of their mind so they would act out even more, and Linda, the grandma, she felt like she could parent them better if she had custody, but it just didn't work. And then she'd start setting the fan in a really bizarre, unsettling ways. For example, Terry takes his son out of ransom middle school. Yeah, that's the school name. He withdraws them from school, informs the teachers, the boys are moving to Kentucky to be with their mom.

But there is no evidence that a move is underway. Nobody is packing. Janet was informed that the boys were coming to Kentucky. It just seemed out of nowhere. Nobody was making plans to even visit Kentucky. Then four days later, the boys go missing. Terry files a police report saying the boys were dropped off at school and then they went missing later in the day,

which a lot of people were like, wait, how do the boys go to school if they had been taken out of school, but maybe it was like, hey, we're gonna pull the kids out of school in like a week or two. This is like their last two weeks. I don't know the situation, but either way, a police report gets filed that indicated that the boys were gone and it didn't seem like they were two weeks. I don't know the situation, but either way, a police report gets filed that indicated

that the boys were gone and it didn't seem like they were runaways. No clothes were missing, just a book bag in a game boy. Then the police were informed that Terry got a phone call from the boys saying, hey dad, it's Derek, and I know you're looking for us, but we're never freaking coming home. So then the police were like, okay, so they are runaways,

so we don't really want to do anything about this. Terry rightfully got upset. He went to local news outlets and complained that his sons were missing in the sheriff's office was doing absolutely nothing to bring them back home. Terry wanted the police to feel pressure. He wanted his babies back home. He genuinely seemed concerned for his kids, regardless of if they ran away or not. Two days later, the police find the boys, and on their drive bringing the boys back to Terry, Derek cleared his throat in the back of the police car. I would like to follow an abusive report against my father.

Okay, why would you do that? Because he doesn't let me watch TV, and he doesn't let me hang out with my friends. And with that, the deputies chuckled and they said, what seems like you got yourself a good dad? The morning that the boys were found, Terry and his mom went to the ransom middle school and made sure administrators knew that only they, those two, would be the ones picking up the boys. Okay, it is not said. Nobody stated the intention behind this act, but it tells me that the day that they went missing probably someone other than Terry or his mom had picked the two up.

Potentially, Rick. So let's talk about Rick Chavez real quick. He's 40 years old when this happened. And Rick was best friends with Terry. Mike, you know, Mike in the beginning of the story, Mike is Rick's brother. These three are like a little trio, okay? Rick loves to fix up cars with Terry. Sometimes the two of them would go in on a car purchase

and then fix it up, resell it, slipping cars essentially. They got along really, really well, you know? And they were all super close, but Rick had his quirks. For one, because Terry didn't have a house phone, Rick gave him a walkie talkie to talk to him with. He was just kind of an interesting guy. Rick also was wild about his privacy.

He had an electric barbed wire fence around his house and security cameras all throughout his property. And I'm going to be honest, his property was not a valuable property and it didn't seem like he had a lot of valuables inside. We will later find out why he had so much security. And it's so scary. Like it's scarier than just, oh he's got a lot of drugs or paraphernalia inside or jewels. I don't know. Regardless, Rick was like a second father to the boys. Rick would watch them, he would

pick them up from school, he would listen to them. If the boys said they were being bullied, he would freaking teach them Tecwan Doe., he was really that type of second dad, a surrogate dad. Rick and Alex seemed to have a particularly close bond, evident by the fact that Alex asked his own father if he could move in with Rick and be adopted by Rick. And his father was like, what are you talking about? No. So fast forward to the fire, right?

Soon after, Terry is on dead. His family was alerted, not by the police, but by Rick. Yeah, Rick calls his family, his parents, and are like, hey, Terry's dead, and his body is so badly burnt, I couldn't even recognize him. I mean, it's crazy, but you know, I knew that it was him because he was wearing his favorite pants. What? That is so weird. Later, he would change his story and he would say, oh, no, no, no, I actually couldn't see Terry's body because I was outside of the house and the firefighter wouldn't let me in.

Yeah, because he was not burnt, correct? He was not burnt. So why did you make up a crazy story? It's speculated that he knew that the fire was going to happen and he assumed the fire had taken over the whole house. It's a really, yeah, he definitely jumped the gun. Yeah, he just... Implicated himself, yes.

So, I mean, it was confusing, but the police didn't know it at the time that he was their unpaid, unknown undercover, very inaccurate messenger. So for a few days, they had searches, looking for the boys, and finally, two days later, Rick calls the police to alert

them he found the boys. Okay, you're like, how? And he's like, well, this random woman called me and she was like, hey, come pick up the boys. They're at this convenience store. Okay, an unknown woman and later Rick would be like, okay, you're right, it wasn't an unknown woman, the boys actually called me. The police were confused, but at least they had 13 year old Derek and 12 year old Alex

in custody and they went straight into interviewing the two of them. The first thing that they established with Derek, even though he was 13, was that he knew the difference between right and wrong. He also had good comprehension of the questions that they were asking. They confirmed with Derek that his IQ was 120. Yeah, which is pretty high. So I guess to them they felt like, yeah, well, he's smart enough to know how to answer these questions without incriminating himself, right? The whole interview is like a rambly mess. Basically, Derek said that Alex confided in him to tell him that, hey, big brother, I'm so scared of our dad. And Derek, as the big brother felt like he had to protect Alex, they were both scared that Terry was going to get physical with them.

So all of Derek's answers, if they feel weird and unsatisfying, it's because they are. They're very vague. I mean, both the boys' stories are very vague. Yeah, so Derek is like, yeah, that's why we tried to run away a few days before the murder. The police tried to get some allegations of abuse out of them because, you know, that would make more sense, like some crazy allegations, right? But it was a bit strange. Okay, well Derek, let me ask you this.

Did your father ever get physical with you? No. Did he ever threaten you in any way? No sir, not like verbally. What do you mean by that? Like he would stare me down sometimes. Has your father hit you? Not like punched us or anything like that, but he has no honest around. Okay, has he ever used weapons on you or anything? No. Did

he ever spank you with a belt or anything like that? No. Okay, as far as pushing you around, I mean, how serious has that ever got? Did he leave physical marks on you? Barely. He would sometimes push me and then I might like trip over something and fall down. Was it frequent him pushing you or was it mostly something else that he did? Disciplinariacsion. So he's saying he didn't push me as much as he did disciplinary action. So the police are like, what do you mean by disciplinary action? And briefly it seemed like Derek was, couldn't find the words. And he said, sorry, I don't want to waste the tape. Okay, this is so odd. The whole interview was being recorded, but what kind of person, especially a 13 year old,

worries about the tape being wasted? It is so interesting. So whether an adult told him to worry about it or whether an adult was like, make sure you get it on tape, right? Or maybe you grew up in an environment where wasting was so found upon that it was beaten into him. I really don't know. It's just so bizarre. Anyway, he continued on with his allegations of abuse.

When I say allegations, it's not because I doubt him, but he'll just see what I mean. He would say things like, when I say yes, I mean yes, when I say no, I mean no, no questions about it. You understand? And he would be like pushing us around while he said that. Anyway, the night at the swing set, when dad saw us, and we were talking seriously, I was telling Alex that I would kill dad, you know, because Alex isn't strong enough to fight him off. So I was gonna do it. And dad was like staring me down a lot.

So I hugged him and stuff, trying to get on his good side and try to cool him down, but he was just shoving Alex around that night after the swing set. So he's saying the night of the murder Terry was shoving Alex down. He just kept pushing and pushing Alex. I don't remember what he said, but Alex fell on the table and he was crying. Do you know what your dad was so mad about? I think probably about running away because we ran away, but he didn't say that's why he was upset. No. So that's also interesting.

It's just very bizarre. I just don't imagine someone just silently pushing a kid around. You don't even try to talk to them. They're like, why did you do that? Why did you run away? I would think that it's pretty evident why the parent is upset, right? The whole story doesn't make sense.

So the boys, they went into Terry's room to feel better, and they saw that dad had gotten on the couch to sleep. So Derek said he knew it was time. He grabbed a bat and he hit him on the head. Derek said that he felt like he was protecting his brother. And where did you strike your father on the head? Mainly the left side of his face and, you know, his skull. I hit him once and then I heard him moan.

And I was afraid that, you know that he might wake up and see us. So I just kept on hitting him, like somewhere around 10 times. So what happens after that? Where is Alex when this is going on? He was there like watching me. Did he know that you were gonna do it? Well, not like he knew,

but like he knew when I was grabbing the bat, yeah. So what happens after that? I killed him and I immediately, I can't stand to see his face because I was so scared. And I, earlier Derek, you said that you knew the difference between right and wrong, do you? Yes, but my anger was so overwhelming that I just did what I thought was right at the time. Derek said, upon seeing his father dead, he was so terrified he panicked and he set the

house on fire to get rid of all the evidence. Later, the police found evidence of a chemical accelerant used in the fire, and they found traces of chemical accelerants on Derek and Alex's issues. Look, how do two young boys know how to use chemical accelerants? I have no freaking idea. Derek claims that they ran out of the house after setting the fire. He didn't even mention the chemical accelerants you just kind of bypassed that. The two start running and they find a man who is willing to drop them off at a different area called pace. If you guys remember that sounds familiar, that's where Frank and Nancy lays live, right?

Do you guys remember what the man looked like? That's what the police are asking Derek. No, I was too shook up about what happened to notice anything really. Where did he drop you off? At an intersection, South Spencer Field and Carolyn Lane? Then where did you guys go? We ran down and entered a subdivision called Brentwood. Sidenote for later, guess who lives in the subdivision named Brentwood?

Rick! Yeah, so Derek continues, we went to the back of the subdivision and just stayed in the woods for two nights actually. And how did you get back to Pensacola? Uh, one of Rick's friends called him on his cell because they saw us at the convenience store. We had just walked in and Rick came to get us. Okay, is there anything else you'd like to say, Derek? No, I don't think so. Alex's interview was very similar to Derek's, except a few odd things stood out to me.

For some reason Alex claimed Terry was not his biological father, when indeed he absolutely was his biological father, it was just weird. It was a bit strange. He also claimed that he endured severe mental abuse from his father. When the police asked him to elaborate, he claimed that his dad was stares him down and he said he would make, quote, extreme eye contact. Alex went on to say the mental abuse was really tough on him, but he became stronger mentally,

and it stopped affecting him as much. Alex claimed there was a lot of physical abuse, pushing and sometimes slapping. Okay, he didn't say a lot, he said sometimes. Alex said it wasn't often, but just there was. Alex said that night he and Derek were talking about, look, we keep saying that we wish someone would kill Dad. Why don't we just kill him ourselves?

And with that, they start thinking about grabbing a knife or a hammer, but instead they settled on it back. Alex said that he watched as Derek hit their dad, and the first crack, the first hit, the first impact it made this wood cracking sound. And then he just kept hitting him. Blood was splattering everywhere in Alex that he watched his dad's face get smashed in. He said his face was getting smashed further and further into his own skull. And I quote, and will he knocks a hole in the forehead and you could see his brains.

I think he knocked him out. The blood came out from his forehead and he was still trying to breathe. Dad was making like the sort of sound that someone who has a clogged nose would make. He was making that sound every time that he breathed out and I saw a skin on his face kind of puff up from the air. And then Alex said that they've put the murder weapon, the aluminum bat on the primary bedroom bed, and lit it on fire. Alex said it was Derek's idea to set the house on fire.

He said that he claimed that he watched it from a TV show. Remember? A crying TV show? Yeah. Now, did you guys ever think about calling the police to save your father? No. Why not? He was already dead, or we thought he was, on his way to be dead, you know? So we didn't really think about calling for help.

And the situation, we were just really scared. And everything like that, so we decided that we could just run from that. Alex claimed the two slept in the woods for two nights after this before being picked up by Rick. And Alex, how do you feel about your father's death now? I feel a little sad about it, a little sad, but a little relieved that we don't have to go through it, like go through what he put us through again, like the abuse. And a little bit mainly, I kind of feel down about it because of the fact that you know,

it was death and I saw it and it was just kind of disturbing. Do you feel responsible for his death? Yes, I do. I feel mainly responsible. Derek took the hits, but I was the one that gave him the idea. Did you think that your father was a good dad? Did he try the best that he could? Yes, we had snack cakes and he bought us snacks. Sometimes we had to live off the snacks. Did he buy you toys? Yeah, we had a lot of toys. Did he buy you a lot of gifts and things like that. Yeah, he was good at that Like we were not to eat that was like basically our thing because we didn't stay at home You know we went to trick-a-cheese once in a while

But we didn't have like a TV for a while. He got rid of it. That was kind of like reclusive very reclusive We didn't have much entertainment in the house, just some books that I read like a thousand times and a few board games. Then Alex had something that peaked the police interest. Alex said that the mental abuse from his father had been going on for a while. Only he never knew it was mental abuse until someone told him it was. Who was that? Oh Rick, Rick told me that I was being mentally abused, and that's when it all kind of clicked.

So Rick said your father was mentally abusing you. Yeah, he told me that, um, like we talked a lot, like Rick and I were good friends, and he said that he'd gone through mental abuse, and he actually helped me get stronger. So before Rick, you were... Oh yeah, it affected me big time. But now, how does it bother you? It has no effect. Because you're mentally stronger.

Yeah. After these interviews, Derek and Alex were arrested, and there was a lot at stake. A conviction of first degree murder carried a possible life sentence in Florida, even for juveniles. And the police got straight into building a case against the two brothers.

But in the house, they find Alex's diary, and it blew the case wide open, which a part of me is kind of angry that they didn't feel suspicions prior to this. But remember the diary I read you? The whole Alex loves Rick? Yeah, I don't know why they didn't do this prior either, but the police looked up Rick Chavez in the system and what do you freaking know? The guy is a sex offender. When he was 23 years old, he assaulted a minor and he had an additional charge of trying

to procure sexual services in exchange for money from a minor. He was working as a security guard at a motel, came across two minors that were runaways. And the report was very thorough and it said, quote, Rick suck the penis of blank minor without his expressed or implied consent. End quote. The juveniles were runaway status and it's just I don't even Rick pled no contest at the time and he was sentenced to six months in jail for the assault. Six months. Listen Florida did not take sex crimes at Seriously Back then, and I highly doubt

that they take it seriously now, just like every other freaking state and every other country in this world. It just wasn't taken seriously. So after being released, Rick is on parole, any committed burglary and petty theft. That landed him back in prison for nine years.

I love that for the world. Sex crimes against children? Six months. You stole some groceries in a pack of gum. Fucking nine years, you filthy dirty criminal. Look, I get it. It's because he violated probation, meaning that this is a harsher offense, but come on, the irony of it all.

Anyway, he gets out and he's back on his A game. He filled his house with playstations. What do you think he's doing that? So does snacks, fun toys, and the neighborhood kids were constantly gathered at his house like it's a hangout spot. I think that's so freaking alarming. If there is no child in that house and all the children are flocking to that house, I would be highly concerned.

He was 33 years old when he met Steve Bell, who was only 15. Now Steve was later interviewed by the police and he said no no no no, it's not what you think it is because I'm the one that pursued Rick. I was going after him non-stop and he kept telling me like no we can't do this because you're a minor. But without much pushing, they start dating. Honestly, I don't even know if Steve was really pursuing him that hard. Rick knew what he was doing, Apparently, he would just tell Steve,

no, no, we can't do this until you're older. But come on, this guy is sick. I mean, you just don't ever enter into a relationship with a minor period. And so Steve, being a runaway similar to Alex at the time, was getting financial and emotional comfort from Rick. And this lasted for a while, for four years they lived together. Steve only had amazing things to say about Rick. Even after they broke up, he said Rick taught him how to read more since he dropped out at the sixth grade.

Rick taught him how to learn more encouraged him to go back to school, taught him how to repair cars. Steve said that he was grateful for Rick, for not abandoning him, deserting him. But sometimes Rick would fly into a jealous rage of Steve talk to anybody. Even on the phone with someone random or a friend, Steve said. Rick just had a lot of violence in his past. He's very jealous, man. If he sees me with anyone, he would threaten me.

Steve says there's no way Rick is involved in what happened to Terry. There's just no way. There's no way he killed Terry. There's no way that he persuaded the kids to kill Terry. No way. Nor do I believe that Rick mol he persuaded the kids to kill Terry. No way. Nor do I believe that Rick molested Alex or attempted to have sexual relations with him, which like Steve, started to break it to you,

but you're really putting your faith in the wrong hands. If anything, Steve kind of blamed Alex kind of. Okay, so he said, I almost feel like Alex was in the position that I was in, looking for a way out of the house. It didn't even look like a true relationship, you know, it looked like... To me it felt like Alex thought, if I make Rick believe I want to have a relationship with him, I get to leave my dad's strict house and I want to have to live with him.

So Steve was in his early 20s now and still defending Rick. The police weren't buying it, the police were convinced that Rick was somehow involved in the murder of Terry, which like, I mean I'm glad you got here, but you could have gotten here a little bit faster. Maybe he was there, maybe he planted the seed in the kid's minds, but let's be real, it's weird. Rick convinced Alex that he was being abused. Rick hated Terry's parenting style, he even made that clear to the police. He hated the fact that Terry was so overprotective.

Who does that annoy? Probably the child predator that can't get much alone time with the kid. And so many parts of the boy stories just don't add up their vague, like they don't remember why Terry was pushing Alex that night because he didn't say anything in particular. People speculate that Terry had found Alex's diary and confronted him about it that night. Right? So they don't want to say that because they don't want to implicate Rick. That's kind of the whole theory. The fact is, their stories were too similar. There wasn't enough detail and there were specific odd details in random parts. It just very much sounded like a rehearsed story. So Rick had to have been involved. Well, Rick was arrested. And in his house, the one that's surrounded by electric barbed wire, what is he protecting?

in his house, the one that's surrounded by electric barbed wire, what is he protecting? Well, CP on his computer, that's what he's protecting. He was arrested. And he claimed he hadn't had any physical, sexual relationship in nearly nine years. He denied all the allegations of being involved in the murder of Terry, and he said unconvincingly, if I had prior knowledge that Terry was going to be killed, I would have stopped it. He said, sure, Alex is diary, it's weird, but is not like that. Like we said, I love you and stuff like a father or an uncle would say, I love you to like a, you know, and if you, we didn't really mean it like that. It was like a father, father, son type of relationship. Rick also fasted

up that the first time that the boys ran away, they were at Rick's house. And after the murder, the boys weren't in the woods, they were at Rick's house. And before turning the boys into the police, guess who washed their clothes? Rick. Rick washed their clothes from the night of the murder. He said, why not? I wanted them to be presentable when they talked to the police. That's all. I mean, my washer was already full.

I was going to run a load anyway, so might as well. That's literally what he said. I'm not exaggerating. He said, I didn't sexually abuse Alex. I think my problem is I like to help people. I'm a good smaritan, you know? I just really care about all children. I just can't imagine a sex offender sitting there,

saying that with their full chest, thinking, that's a good one, people are gonna like that one. I like to help children. Yeah, like that is, Wow. That is so scary. Yeah, he said that he wanted to protect the boys against their terrifying father and the police, they weren't buying it. They arrested him for murder and for sexual abuse of a minor. Suck in, Rick was shook. He told a reporter, I mean, it's crazy. Like I said, my only problem is

I just really like helping people. So all three of them are arrested and very quickly Derek and Alex were moved from juvenile prison to adult prison full-fledged adult prison and here's the crazy part. They were all put in the same prison all three of them. Okay I am sure that precautions were put in place But it is wild to think that not only are the children being sent to a prison that houses full grown adults that happen to be child molesters, child-rippers, child-objecters, child killers, but also the fact that Rick is in the same prison as them? They claimed they had strict rules. They're like, we have rules. They can't actually see each other guys. You know, they're not in the same cell or anything. Yeah, they're never allowed to talk. We'll tell me how Rick smuggled a letter to Alex and prison. It read,

I'm always thinking about you. Hang in there. It will work out if nothing changes in the testimony. You know who not to trust. They are keeping us apart till this is over, always and forever. I think about you day and night. Please be careful. I'm with you and your thoughts. Our future depends on the outcome of this in court and what happens to us. Just be strong and please don't change anything and hang in there. You know what your lawyer did to me. That's not your fault that he's trying to break you down. Just don't give it. Be bold and be strong. Nothing has changed. I'm still here and watch who you trust. Everything is going to be alright. I will be waiting. Don't forget my address and my phone number. Whatever happens

Try to stay in touch with me or Mike. It's all a mind game. Don't be played and don't change nothing even under oath They will not keep their promises. They will lie to you to get to you and please don't give in. I'm still with you I love you always and forever. I love you forever be strong be patient. I'm still with you So apparently they didn't take enough precautions because how did Alex get this letter from Rick? So Alex did read it. Yeah, so Rick's trial was first and then the brothers would take place. The judge wanted Rick's decision to be sealed until the brother's trial was over, so the public wouldn't know what happened to Rick until both trials came to an end. This doesn't really happen that frequently, but it was just such a very special case.

The case against Rick was that everyone believed he brainwashed and groomed Alex into believing that he was being abused. And sure, Terry's parenting was far from perfect, but he genuinely thought that he was being the most abused child in the world, like that type of vibe. Like staring him down, saying, when I say yes, I mean yes,

like these are hardly things that I would say are like, wow, I've never heard anything more abuse. I'm not trying to discount his experience and I'm sure it's so stressful for a kid to experience that. But I mean, just listen to the last episode if you need reference for like a child abuse case. Rick made him believe that staring him down was a despicable level of mental torture that was being inflicted on Alex by the person who was supposed to be protecting him. Rick made them feel like he was the only one that could protect them. He convinced them and edged them on when they planned the murder of their dad.

He might have even planned it for them with the chemical accelerant, how to do it, how to execute their plan. The way the boys told their stories, I mean it all sounded pre-planned and if we know anything about these cases with 13 year olds being involved, they're messy. They're so messy. They start saying some wild stuff in interrogations. I mean yeah, maybe in the beginning it's a little bit rehearsed, but trust me, they get so messy so quickly. It just all of it sounded bizarre. It didn't seem like something the boys had plotted. And then he took the boys into his home.

He thought that Terry's body would be found so horribly burnt that nobody would know that he was murdered prior to it, and he would tell the family, and I think in Rick's sick mind, he thought that he could take care of the boys. He thought that he could be their next guardian. He was Terry's best friend, nobody else in the family really was stepping up to the plate, and maybe he thought everyone would just sit by and be okay with him taking guardianship, especially if Alex and Derek are like, yeah, we want him to be our new dad. But when Terry's body was found before the fire reached the living room and they found

out that he died from blood forced trauma to the head, Rick had to turn the boys in because he told them that as kids they will get off but he as an adult would stay in prison forever. So you have to go with the script, right? He made them believe that they wouldn't be charged, they wouldn't be found guilty and they would all be reunited again. So this is a police theory but it is also what both the brothers started arguing in court. Derek and Alex said that this is what happened. They said that Rick was outside their house waiting for them while they were killing their

dad so that they could jump into his car after the murder, but the problem is, even though all of this sounds literally my belief in what happened, the police only had circumstantial evidence. And Rick had an alibi. Okay, it wasn't a great alibi. It was his brother saying, no, he was at home watching TV with me. Okay, but it was an alibi.

So that sums up Rick's trial. During the brother's trial, a big point of discussion was whether or not Derek was a psychopath. Some former juvenile inmates testified that Derek laughed when talking about killing his dad with a baseball bat. Psychologists argued that Derek displayed psychopathic tendencies, he was manipulative and pulsive, charming, lacked remorse.

He didn't even seem to have any emotional reaction or remorse during the entire trial, to the fact that his dad died, to the fact that he was being tried for first-degree murder, like nothing. Meanwhile, Alex seemed really nervous. He even showed a lot more remorse. He talked about how Rick had told them that it was normal for men and boys to kiss. Rick told Alex that he loved him

because the two of them were different. Rick was like, Alex, your gay and your father will never understand that, but I will. And men and boys are allowed to have sex together because it satisfies a natural curiosity. Alex testified that he loved Rick, and then he wanted to be with Rick. Rick constantly told him that Terry can't love him like he can, and that Alex was special and only Rick knew that.

Also, Alex said Rick would constantly bring up small things that Terry would do, and be like, you know what that is, right? He's mentally abusing you. Alex claimed that he genuinely believed he was in love with Rick, and that's how Rick made him feel. And on the evening of Alex's 12th birthday, they had their first sexual encounter, oral sex. And over the next five months, they had more sexual encounters.

It happened in Rick's living room, his bedroom, a tool shed, a vacant home, an old junked car, practically everywhere. Rick's attorney has a way to prove that this never happened. He asked Alex on the stand to describe the shape, size, and appearance of Rick's penis to the jury. Alex stated he didn't recall. And the attorney was like, ah, we got him.

How traumatizing is that for a 12 year old boy? Remember, Terry King became suspicious. He told Rick's brother Mike that he found a diary a few hours before the murder. So again, it's speculated that maybe Rick had been planning something all along, but he needed to strike now since Terry had found out about him. And as for Mike, he could easily lie to be an alibi first brother because he relied on Rick for financial support. So in the end, the results are crazy, they're not what you expect.

Rick was found not guilty of first-degree murder. He cried tears of joy, but the prosecutor did announce that they were going to charge him with accessory to murder and Luz act against Alex King. Meanwhile, September 2002, the brothers were found guilty of second-degree murder and arson. Each of them would face up to 22 years to life in prison and up to 30 years for the arson charge. Even the jurors were not happy with this decision. A lot of people felt like the judge

was being really harsh on the boys and not the adult in this case, which is Rick. So with the threat of an appeal in another grueling court battle, both the state and the defense attorneys settled on the boys pleading guilty to third degree murder and arson. Basically third degree is defined as unintentional killing that occurs while another felony crime is being committed.

So basically, they were charged with assaulting their father and unintentionally killing him during the assault. Derrick was sentenced to eight years. Alex to seven. And both would get credit for time served. So both would be eligible for early release so long as they served like 85% of their sentences. The boys received a lot of support in prison. I mean, look, normally there's so much sick plotting behind the scenes when kids kill, especially their guardians or parents. There's almost like this thick, venomous hatred that's dripping against the people that are supposed to protect them.

Or sometimes in, you know, some situations itself defends. But this, I mean, all the evidence we've seen so far, it points to Rick being manipulative and disgusting. I mean, the grooming of like, oh my god, your father is mentally torturing you. Like, that is grooming and it's genuine real right, right? Convincing the boys that what's happening in their home is not normal, it's not okay, they're suffering. The two received so much support that when they were released, Alex found a home in a professor and she wrote a book on this case

that talked about the boys innocence in this. And Dan Daly, who was a widowed retiree, he was like a parent to the two boys, like a dad. Like a lot of parents in the area, he was outraged at how harshly the boys were being treated. Because, you know, think about it as a parent. You have this sex offender that is free for what reason, and then he's going around grooming children into believing that normal or semi-normal parenting tactics are absolutely disgusting by all acts against humanity.

And then he's gonna go and rape your child and then have you kill someone. Like it's, it feels like a failure of the justice system as well. So both the brothers were released 19 and 20 years old and it was just really hard to adjust. I mean, the amount of change in the world, technology and life as they knew it. They lost their developmental years in a place that called them dirty criminals. It was rough. Alex seemed to turn his life around. He's pretty low profile, but Derek would be sent

to prison later for abusing a stepson. Allegedly. I don't know the definitive clarification if he was sexually abusing a stepson or what, but either way, very alarming. And in 2003, Rick was found guilty of accessory to murder after the fact and glued behavior against Alex. He will be eligible for parole in 2028 and he will be 67 years old. But I hope he gets denied because he's a child predator. And I find that in almost all the cases that we've done, they never change.

They just hide it better. And I know that there's a lot of opinions on, okay, well, is Terry this controlling strike to evil dad? Or is he just doing what he can? Terry actually left a diary as well, and the police found it. It read, this is one entry. A lot of times people mistake children for objects of personal property. They are not objects. They are little people with feelings and emotions,

and those feelings and emotions are very fragile and should be protected. Terry wrote about how he was frustrated with Janet not being around. Sometimes she would complain about the stress of being a mom and disappear for days at a time. But what about him? He talked about how he lost his job once. They had no food, nothing, no money. And all four children

were with him, wondering when mommy was coming home. Janet straight up told him, I love seeing my kids, but I also wish I never had kids. I just don't like the responsibility of them. The last entry Terry Everro was talking about how he feels hopeful, because the kids are going into foster families, and he wrote, this was his final entry. The point of everything I'm doing right now is to bring the family together with the exception of the mother. I don't know, I mean I think clearly Terry was not a perfect father, but I don't think that he was this abusive monster and I certainly don't think that he deserved to die.

And as for who's really guilty in this murder, I've seen arguments that the boys just wanted to kill their father so that they could live with Rick, because Rick had less rules. But I don't think it matters in the end, because Rick is the adult in the situation. And every single situation where there's children and adults involved, I blame the adults. Like, you're 40, these kids are 12 and 13. 12 and 13 year olds, they have complex emotions that they don't quite understand. As a 40 year old, you're telling me you're just gonna go ahead with a murder, go along with it. And as for Derek being a psychopath, I know that that was a big part of the trial. And I do, I will say there are some alarming things about Derek not so much as Alex but there are some things but you can be a psychopath and not a killer. I'm not sure why that was even used as an

argument. Yeah I hope Rick stays in jail and I hope everyone knows what he's in there for and that's it for today's main episode. I hope you guys are staying safe this holiday season and staying warm. We are going to be skipping a mini-sode this Sunday and because it's Christmas, but we will be back on Wednesday for the main episode. So stay safe, stay warm. I love you guys. See you on Wednesday. Bye.