Rotten Mango - Duggar Parents Caught Son Molesting Underage Sisters & Just Sent Him To Church Camp ‘To Be Fixed’

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

The Covenant’s Eyes. A mobile app anyone can download whose purpose is to prevent its user from watching adult content. Around every 45 seconds, a screenshot is taken (yes, even if you’re in incognito mode) and gets sent directly to someone you know.   Your wife, husband, father, etc., they’re called your ‘accountability partner.’   But what if the content being viewed is illegal? Depraved. Perverted. Corrupt. What if the content being viewed involves crimes against children? CSAM?   Does it still screenshot and send the alert to the ‘accountability partner?’ Does it get sent straight to the authorities?   Former reality TV star, Joshua Duggar is arrested for this very violation.   This is the case of the Duggar family. The 2021 arrest of Joshua Duggar and the 2026 arrests of his siblings, Joseph and Kendra Duggar.   Plus…all the potential crimes in between.         Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Bada being, bad a boob. This is part two of the Dugger arrests. We're going over Joshua Dugger's arrest before we head into Joseph and Kendra Dugger. If you are unfamiliar with the Dugger family, please listen to our audio part one version of the Dugger family breakdown. We go over briefly who they are as people, but we don't really dive into the TLC show yet. That's what we're doing in this episode. We also go over the Ashley Madison hack and how Joshua Dugger, the eldest son of the Dugger family empire, becomes the face of having affairs and being a lot of, a good God-following Christian man.

So with that being said, let's head into part two. When you think of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, milf manner typically isn't the first thing that comes to mind. I mean, maybe it is. Okay, maybe I need to broaden my imagination, right? Milf. Milf manner. TLC is the reality show channel.

It actually was never that in the beginning. It started off being the learning channel. And it was funded by the Department of Health and NASA to essentially create... The TLC stands for the Learning Channel? The Learning Channel. Whoa. I know.

And it was funded by the Department of Health and NASA to create learning material for people who did not have as much access to schooling. So they would be these little educational videos, hour-long videos of teaching people how to read, would be distributed through a free NASA satellite to all the rural areas where there's not a lot of school set up. it was unsurprisingly, not a profit machine. I mean, turns out we don't really enjoy learning,

especially not with riveting titles like, learn to read. If I don't know how to read, how am I going to read your title? The initiative itself was solid. I mean, there were regions in the U.S. with the literacy rates that were three times the national average. Like, genuinely, I think that this was like one of the times the government was maybe in the right place.

But because money runs the world, the parent company eventually goes bankrupt, and it's no longer being funded. and the Discovery Network swoop in by the Learning Channel, and it's now almost defunct, right? They originally stay on brand. Discovery Channel is like, we're just going to do like slightly more fun.

We're going to release multi-part series on literature's most influential works. We're going to bring in scholars, historians, novelists, to come in and comment on pieces like Frankenstein, the origin of species. Then Paleo World, that was a hit, 50 episode series on dinosaurs. Well.

Yeah. Ready Set, learn, preschool programming. And then because money still runs the world, the Discovery Channel starts getting creative. They're like, okay, well, maybe it doesn't have to be so informative every second of every time we're on air. Maybe we could just like ease into it. So they do.

They ease into it. They don't go from ready set, learn, to extreme cougar wives. Right. Which features, you know, people like 76-year-old Hattie. She sleeps with men as young as 18 years old. And she says things like, I'm kind of. confident. I'm sexy. I'm loving and I've never had a headache. I always have sex on the first date. You go, Hattie. Okay. Then there's Stephanie, not to be confused with me. She's 65, dating a 28 year old.

Yeah. And they, you know, that's what they do now. So where the switch? Like, they just start making some. Yes. So they, they had ready set learn. And then they start doing, you know what we could learn about weddings? A wedding story. Watch real couples get married and learn how to wedding planned. And maybe they do these DIY projects to save money and you can learn the learning channel how to do that for your own wedding. Then that transitions into a baby story. Watch real couples give birth and it's medical and it's relationship and you can learn the health care system. And we can capture their emotional first birth moments, trading spaces. Neighbors swap home.

Okay, this one, I don't know what we're learning from it, but like neighbors would swap homes and then redecorate a room in the neighbor's house with money and a designer's help. There's a viral moment where a designer covered up a homeowner's beloved fireplace with a wooden facade, even though the homeowner explicitly told the show not to and she broke down on camera. They also have, while you were out, a family member would decide that your house is disgusting, filthy and ugly. They would lure you out of the house for 48 hours. A team of designers would come in with the learning channel and redo the room that they deemed to be fucking filth. It seems like loosely, loosely educational in the sense of like,

we want to be voyeurs, but also it was mostly harmless and most importantly an advertiser's dream. Then TLC starts transitioning their slogans. It was live and learn, life unscripted. To finally, everyone needs a little TLC. They dropped the learning channel. They're just TLC now and they use it as more like tender loving care. No way. Then it starts to get weird. Honey, we're killing the kids. American version of an existing British show nutritionists will come in and they'll bring in a laptop and they're like this is what your kid is going to look like at 40 years old if you don't stop feeding them tater tots for breakfast lunch and dinner look at your kid isn't your kid so unconventionally unattractive doesn't that make you want to

scream and die then they should eat a salad and everyone's like this is actually horrendous when you think about it like there is no aspect of this that could be even remotely healthy that we get a four week boot camp to transform the family's habits and follow-up episodes to show how they're going to look more conventionally attractive now with their new lifestyle. It's just like shaming, okay? There's hoarding, buried alive, where they would go to hoarder's homes, give them interventions, declutter their homes. One notorious season, two members of the crew contracted the very often fatal hantavirus, where humans inhaled dust that's contaminated by saliva urine or droppings of infected rodents. The mortality rate is up to 38%. My Strange Addiction. You know that one. People who like

to eat glass mattresses. Participants have come forward to state that there was a lot that was depicted that was just straight up staged and set up. And also like there was no therapy. There was no nothing. Extreme couponing. This is like a whole national scandal at that show. Couponers would coupon stack to purchase hundreds of dollars of groceries for pennies. The show triggered a surge of extreme Couponing and stores blame the show for coupon fraud. A huge wave of coupon fraud took over America after this show. I believe there were people investigated in regards to coupon fraud because of the show. Freaky Eaters.

Hey, you, you only eat French fries? Welcome to the show. Sister wives, where a man has four wives. And I believe at one point, they all lived in the same cul-de-sac. And he would go from house to house. And he'd be like, on Mondays, I stay with Megan. On Tuesdays, I go to Terry's house. outrageous kids parties.

Parents would just be spending a lot of money for over-the-top birthday parties for their children. And just like really oddball shows like mall cops where they would follow the security staff at the Mall of America in Minnesota while they deal with shoplifters and people peeing in fitting rooms. Toddlers and tiaras followed child beauty pageants. That was one of the more controversial ones, as you would imagine,

with the constant sexualization of little children. 90-day fiancé, very controversial, still up and running. My 600 pound life. Multiple former cast members have filed lawsuits against the producers. Here comes Honey Boo Boo. That's a whole other situation I could do a whole episode on because Honey Boo Boo's mom ends up staying with a child sex offender breaking Amish,

where they allegedly filmed former Amish people leaving their communities in real time. Social media investigation stated that that was all fake, that these cast members were actually have left their communities years earlier, so the show was not that accurate. but were staged. My five wives, another polygamous. Seeking sister wives.

Another polygamous where now they're like, my husband wants another wife. Let's go find the perfect wife. They had a special called My Husbands Not Gay, which focused on four Mormon or LDS church members who stated that they had SSA, same-sex attraction, and they chose to live in heterosexual marriages because that's in line with their religious beliefs.

the men framed their attractions as something they chose not to act on, emphasizing religious conviction and marriage as the priority, which naturally drew significant backlash and criticism. Pregnant behind bars, documenting pregnant woman in jail and prisons, which, you know, the anger there was that TLC just did not do enough to advocate for prison reform. My teen is pregnant and so am I, where mom and teenage daughter and a family would be pregnant at the same time.

Unexpected, another teen pregnancy show. Hot and heavy! where they would document mixed-weight couples, where plus-sized women are in relationships with male, thin male partners. But the name of the show, hot and heavy, feels like the men are hot and the women are heavy. And there's almost always this lingering question in every episode of,

like, why is he even with her when she's fat? Miltz Manor. I believe this is the one, you know, where you had the older woman with the younger men. But so this, they had older women come into the villa where they thought that they were just going to meet a bunch of young hunks. But turns out all the young men, that they're going to date are like their sons.

So they're not going to date their own son, but like the other milf, that's her son. And they had these weird segments where the mothers would grope the young men's torsos to identify their own son. But there was one show that was one of the biggest ratings success for TLC, like really unlike any other. And that is 19 kids and counting. The show about the Duggers. Wow.

This show repeats. consistently hit new highs on TLC So you said that Like I mean because I never Heard of them right But you were saying most American heard about Them in this show

Yeah yeah I mean you would know this Leave it in the comments I knew of the Duggers I never watched the show I never kept up with the Duggers I think maybe Because I had a little bit of religious trauma

I don't watch shows like this But yeah I know a lot of of people do a lot of people on the rm team they're like you don't know the duggers you don't know every person of the duggers i see but the show is long finished right the show ended in 2015 because of what i'm about to talk about and it's not the ashley madison scandal that ends the show something worse ends the show really so this whole show is about jim boob jim bob okay his real name is jim bob people call him jim boob people call him rim job people call him boob you decide what you want to call him

So Jim Bob Dugger is his full name. Yes. If people would just call him Jim, Jim Bob? They call him Jim Bob. Jim Bob, okay. Yeah. Then you have Michelle Dugger, and they are fundamentalist Christians, and they have 19 kids and counting. They had specials before.

They're a full-blown, multi-season show, and it would be called things like 14 children and pregnant again. Raising 16 children. On the road was 16 children. Season one of the TLC reality show wasn't even 19 kids and counting. It was 17 kids and counting. And you can put together what happened there. Now, aside from the fact that Michelle Dugger herself birthed 19 kids and is, by the internet's opinion, freakishly fertile, they all live in one house. They've got to make 19 breakfast, 19 dinners.

There's the infamous tater-taught casserole. I mean, it's weird. The whole show, the appeal. They all live in one house? Yeah. With the couple, with the wife, husband, everybody? No. So the minute that someone gets married, they usually move out.

But there was a point. in time where most of them were under the same roof. Oh, I see, I see. Yeah. Most of them. So when the show was going on, they were younger. So they're still kids. Yes.

Okay. So I think it was like midway through the show that he's the first one to get married. And this was heavily documented. Joshua Dugger gets married. Heavily documented. Anna Dugger is a big part of the show. The whole appeal of this show is it's like watching a woman wearing an ankle length, denim skirt, looking like, Michelle,

dogger looks like she just walked out of magazine from a hundred years ago and she runs her house and dinner time like a corporation all the kids are employees that fascination causes the show to become tlc's highest rated program ever when it's released the show is a ratings addiction people are so confused and intrigued by this entire big family that seem normal question mark and i'm telling you in the perspective of the reality show appeal not the actual family because it would be kind of offensive to say that they're wholesome when they have all vocally, outside of the TV show, have stated, well, not all, but a lot of them have been very vocal against just like human rights.

A lot of them are anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, that's what they like to say, right? They're just like anti, yeah, they're exactly what you expect from like a hardcore Christian fundamentalist family. So, but I think when the TLC show originally aired, a lot of America had a fascination with them, because at least on the show itself, they appeared very wholesome. They don't talk about these issues, right? No, they always seem like, well, it's always kind of like the nice southern family of, well, if you don't believe in God, you're going to burn in the pits of hell, but like that vibe. Does Jim Bob have a job?

Yeah, so Jim Bob was like a car dealership dude, and then later they get into trying to flip houses in real estate, but his whole job becomes the reality show. He is a politician at one point, not a good one. But he was. Do they get paid for the TLC? Yes. They made millions and millions of dollars from this show, all taken by Jim Boob and Michelle Dugger.

There were lots of complaints, particularly from Jill Dugger later who writes a full book and her husband Derek, who say like everything, they were forced to be documented. She alleges that Jim Bob would have her signed contracts without reading them because she just trusts her dad. And it would be like,

oh, from now on, you are forced to come to every TLC appearance. and they would get nothing out of it. But they're Christian fundamentalists, right? So all the children would dress in a certain way. The girls were all wearing dresses, long dresses. They never wore pants or shorts. They all had curly hair. All the girls in the family, the daughters, they had softer voices.

Michelle Dugger is known for talking like this with like a slight southern accent, but very soft. Nothing. It's almost like she's always whispering and she can barely, like, you just always hear this very soft demeanor. The boys, they're. just there. The boys are just there and they're scared to look at any girl. The family believes that the female body is a tripwire for sin. It's like a code read. They would have a code

where if one of the girls they're out and about, one of the girls in the family would yell Nike. All the boys in the family would crane their necks down looking at the floor because one of the older girls would later write in the book. So Jill Dugger would write in her book that it's because like someone who was wearing, I don't know, maybe something that showed their shoulders or a butt cheek was out and about. So all the guys had to look. down. Nike though? Yeah, so they would's name Nike. Why Nike? I don't know. Yeah, and they all homeschooled their

children. And side note, like I said, all the Dugger kids are named with J names. So you got Josh, Jana, John David, Jill, Jessa, Ginger, Joseph, Josiah, Joanna, Jadadaya, Jeremiah, Jason, James, Justin, Jackson, Johanna, Jennifer, Jordan, Josie. Wow. Michelle Dugger stayed busy. She was having a baby like every 18 months.

You say some of them were twins, too, right? Yes, there's two sets of twins. And you can kind of see how all of this makes for really good reality TV. Large group of people, there's a large group of people who watch this show that could relate to the Duggers. So they, I mean, probably not the part where they need a whole school bus to transport the family to the grocery store. But a lot of people grew up in super conservative, strict religious families. And either they're still in it or they've left it and they're watching the show with perhaps morbid fascination of what their lives could have been. Where there are people who aren't raised religiously and think that the whole show is very interesting because it's so different from their own way of life.

But ultimately, it still feels kind of wholesome. Like the biggest plot point of every episode is like, we're having a guest over. Now girls run 20 loads of laundry and, ooh, how many cans of pickles are we getting at the grocery store? And now we got to teach one of the kids how to drive. It's like very slice of lifey. And as long as TLC edits out all the parts that they're probably being homophobic, transphobic, anti-women, anti-difference. you get it, then it's going to stay wholesome. Now, again, like I said, when I talk about their wholesome family image,

it's not because I condone any of some of their bigoted beliefs and many of them still hold those beliefs. I'm giving you a context on how they became famous and without further research, why people might watch their reality show and perceive them to be wholesome. They were literally marketed that way. Christian family trying to navigate the world. It'd be like, Duggers go to New York City for the first time. And in this wholesome image, let's break down the family members.

You've got Jim Bob, who comes off originally as the Aw Shucks guy, like the Ashuk's Patriarch. He runs the family. He originally had a Southern Dad appeal, no more, but he did. He'll be asked about drugs. And he could just say, I've never taken drugs. But he's like the Ashucks. There's a few times I've been sick and I've taken some Tylenol or aspirin,

but I've never taken marijuana. Well, nobody was asking you about the Pepsid to cocaine pipeline. Like, that's a really, you didn't have to say that, right? Then you have Michelle Dugger. Soft-spoken. Makes it hard to believe that she's birthed 18 kids because after like maybe two, you start yelling a little bit more because life is hard, right? But she's not.

She's so sad. She portrays herself as someone who never loses her cool, even though she has 19 more kids than most people. But she's also like super mom, by the grace of God. She says she wasn't always like that before. She found God. You know, she didn't grow up. up religious like Jim Boob, she actually used to do this crazy thing, sinful, where she would

mow her lawn in a bikini as a teenager. And she felt it was sinful to lead all the married man astray in the neighborhood, which is not only really confident, but like a very odd story to share. Yeah. They get married on Michelle's 18th birthday. Story goes, Jim Bob walks into a yogurt shop and sees Michelle falls in love. She converts to IBLP, his religious, and then Disney becomes synonymous with the devil. Apparently the Duggers would have a bonfire where they would burn anything that was worldly and not godly. So fucking Mickey Mouse is getting cremated by the name of God.

Okay. And again, I just want to make it like abundantly clear. I think religion is one of the more beautiful aspects to human life and existence, though I'm not religious and that probably is like due to, my own personal upbringing, but I think that most people who are in some sort of faith-based life, a lot of them are some of the sweetest people, and they support gay rights, women's rights, they support all of that, and they're just living life going to temple, church, synagogue. But he's weird.

Okay, so this is not me poking fun at religion. This is me poking fun at Jim Boop. He says, they also are not allowed to dance. Jim Bob says, we try not to shake body parts to draw attention to our bodies. So the two of them, they go on to have their very first child, Josh Dugger. They called him the little governor. Josh, okay, so Jim Bob eventually gets into politics. Josh Dugger would follow his dad to the capital in Arkansas and meet with all these politicians. He would even later join the family research council, like I said, the highly, highly political right-wing group. His on-air persona at the time was role model eldest golden, boy, responsible, charismatic, into politics. This is the prototype for what every Dugger kid should strive to be. He's the first to get married. But even then his relationship with Anna Dugger becomes like a huge storyline for the show. The show leans so heavily into Josh Dugger being Jim Boob 2.0. He's going to be a great family man. He also ironically sang the loyalty song to Anna during the ceremony during their wedding. Yeah. There's this one scene in the show though.

Josh doesn't want to move. So they're all sitting at the dining table and Josh doesn't want to move. He's holding one of their babies and Anna is pregnant with another baby. And she's like trying to get behind him and he's like, oh, he like makes a half-hearted attempt to move his chair. He's like, just doing this. And then Anna, she decides, oh, don't mind me. It's okay. You don't have to move my amazing husband.

Let me just get on all fours while I'm pregnant and crawl under the table to get to my seat. Then you have it. What? Wait. Yeah. Yeah. Like she's doing it as if this is a normal thing to do? Yeah.

Like this happens a lot? But I think the way that it's edited with lighthearted music, I think in hindsight, this show was really effective at normalizing horrendous relationships. Then there's Jaina Dugger. A lot of people have sympathy for Jaina because she's the firstborn daughter, which naturally makes it seem like she was tasked unfairly with basically raising all of her siblings. She actually gets married latest. She gets married in her 30s, which nothing is wrong with that.

But netizens feel like she was forced to watch her siblings get married, have children of their own while she was forced to stay in the family home, homeschooling all the younger kids, raising all their siblings. She's known to be basically good at everything. Musical instruments, gardening. The word Cinderella comes out a lot when people talk about her and not necessarily in like a mean-spirited way. A lot of people who have strong parisocial connections to the Duggers

wanted to save her in a sense. She does get married and gets cited for misdemeanor child endangerment. We're going to get into that later. But yeah, later. That's later. Then you have her twin brother, John David Dugger. On the show, he's kind of the older reserved guy that's in the background. He's very much hated by the internet these days.

But on the show, he was just a quiet, reserved, strong persona, very masculine emphasis on persona. He has a pilot license. He almost killed his entire family because he let the aircraft run out of fuel and they crash landed in a field. his kiss during the wedding. What do you mean? Like they were on the show, he was flying the plane? This was not on the show, yeah. Oh, oh.

Yeah, but he was flying the plane and they crash landed. And he also was like stealing supplies from missionary efforts. Is the allegation on the internet? Not my allegation. People hate him. People hate him. And he has one of the more viral moments on 19 kids and counting. Because at his wedding with his wife,

this is a lot of the Duggers, their first kiss is their wedding day, wedding ceremony kiss, which is great for ratings, right? But he does the thing where he doesn't just like kiss his wife. He like makes a whole drawn out production of it where he kisses her hands, then her cheeks and then her forehead and her lips. And it's very uncomfortable to watch. Then you have Jill Dugger. She's been very outspoken about her family since the show.

She will become pivotal later. But while on the show, they kind of molded her to be the persona of the eager to please daughter who wanted to be noticed. She seemed deeply enthusiastic about anything that the, family valued on her wedding day, Jim Bob, her dad, tells her new husband Derek that he has permission to kiss the bride. Jessa, growing up, she was seen as the outspoken, sharp-tonged Dugger by Dugger Sanders. She was the first daughter to enter a courtship on television, and I believe their very

first kiss was not at the altar, but afterwards. So they wanted a very private moment for their kiss. Now, prior to this, during the courting, Jim Bob gave them permission for a 30-second hug. So there's that. There's also a weird viral moment where Jim Bob and Michelle go on a date with Jessa and Ben during their courting process. And Jim Bob and Michelle, I don't know if the Holy Spirit compelled them to do this, but they're mini golfing. And they're like, here's what all the fun you can have when you get married. And they're just like dry humping on the mini golf course.

They're like, Jim Bob and Michelle. Dry humping? They're both like, you know, when you in like the room. Yeah, but it was not. Then you have ginger. When you say courting. Oh, we're going to get into courting. So courting is their version of dating.

Oh, got it. Now, Ginger, who has been very vocal, she also has two books since the reality show ended. There was a whole free Ginger movement online during the show because she would roll her eyes. She would mention that she wanted to live in a big city one day. She wouldn't mind it. She wouldn't mind living in New York City one day. And so a lot of people online were like, we got to save Ginger. She's the one that we can save.

We can get her out of the grip of the fundamentalist. Ginger has since written her book, Free Indeed. But she says in her book, as TLC ordered more seasons, I became known as the girl with a million expressions, apparently because of my exaggerated faces. People even call me the Rebel Dugger, which was funny considering I wanted nothing more than to please my parents. It was all because of one offhand comment I made on camera about how I love the city and enjoy visiting it. That innocent statement turned into entire Reddit threads about how I wanted to move away from my family and lead an exciting life in the city. Joseph Dugger. At the time.

At the time. He's known as the quiet, nice one. Athletic. A lot of people loved him. They thought that he was soft. He has this baby face. More on him later. Josiah.

Class Count, family prankster. He's notably also a rebel by Dugger Standards, so much so that he was sent to this camp that fundamentalists go to, which is just like really harsh military-esque training. Really just, and people said that you could see the light leave his eyes after that. He's generally well liked by the internet. You have Joy Anna. She's known as the tomboy.

I don't know if that word is offensive to some people, but that's what a lot of people would call her on pages. But the show focused on her gravitating more towards boy activities rather than domestic chores like her sisters. Then you have Jeremiah and Jedediah. They're the Dugger twins. Fans dubbed them the lost boys because they barely ever got an individual screen time. They just kind of blend into the episodes.

And this is again when they're young, because Jedediah later is going to get himself into some trouble because he's going to pat his wife on the head when she gives labor, and he's going to wait to shame his wife during pregnancy, and then he's going to run for public office. Jason the builder, another one that just kind of gets lost. He just builds things very into construction work, flipping houses. James Dugger, known to be resourceful.

So in this pink square, I actually have a lot of the single Dugger children, and then obviously they're underage, but like single as in, it's actually very important in the Dugger. of who's married, who has children, who is courted, and who is, quote, eligible for courting. It's like a thing. James Dugger, resourceful helper. Justin Dugger, people say he was like the sweet, thoughtful one, and this is during the show. Jackson, the jokester, his parents would say that he's like the best jokester, best storyteller ever.

And a lot of the younger Duggers, there's not much, I would say, like, their biggest controversies that they face are still being part of very, like, right, wing religious groups. Like Jackson's thing was he is very involved, I believe, in Turning Point USA or he's at like a lot of their conferences. So like the younger Duggers, there's not as much compared to the older Duggers. There's not as much history. There's not as much of a digital footprint and all of these things that's going on. And with two of the older Dugglers criminal histories.

So with that, you know, his Jackson's classic move, though, would be to bring in snakes and doors to tease his siblings. Then you have Johanna. Johanna is after six boys, they finally have another. daughter and she's described as outgoing and always tidying up after her siblings, which I don't know if anyone should be known for that. Then you have Jennifer, the younger ones, like I said, we don't really know much about, but huge animal lover.

Jordan Grace, people call her the overlooked baby because right after, and you can kind of see it happen, but like right after Josie is born quickly after and Josie is nicknamed the Miracle Baby, she spent six months in the NICU. And actually, one of the most disturbing scenes in the entire series is the producer's film her having a seizure on camera, Josie. Jana is watching over her, sobbing, praying for her, freaking out. The directors finally step in to help. They rush her to the hospital.

Meanwhile, Jim Bob and Michelle are away and do not rush home. So there's something called the quiverful movement in fundamentalist Christians, which the family has denied being part of it, though it seems like they follow the principles to the tea. These are essentially people who believe that children are tools for God. They invoke God's work. And that's really the only reason to keep having children beyond conventional desire. Therefore, if you have a ton of children, you are blessed by God and you should keep having these kids because that's what God wants.

So for, like family planning is frowned upon. Any sort of contraception is frowned upon because it's God's will. Like if it happens, it's God's will. And if you follow that logic, you can see how forms of birth control can start becoming demonized. There have been lots of controversial statements made by people in the quiverful, movement who liken birth control to murdering children. Even natural family planning. Just like following your ovulation scandal is found upon by hardcore quiverfuls,

aka don't even plan when you're least likely to get pregnant. Like just do it and see what happens. A woman's body is meant to be a living sacrifice. Yeah. To having kids. And that's why a lot of people will track the Duggers kids, kids. So they want to track. A lot of internet people like to track how much.

many kids each Dugger child has because that gives them an indication of how deep in the fundamentalist religion that they still are because not all of them have spoken out does that make sense spoken about oh like just Dugger the whole scandal and what they believe in yeah so they can tell by how many kids is how much they're still following this yes believe yeah i see if you are a man who had a vasectomy you should go and reverse it because you can't cut off children you owe it to God. In the quiverful movement, there are people called reversal babies, where husbands would reverse their vasectomies, then go on to have a child, and they were known as reversal babies in the communities.

Is that good or bad? Like, they would all hang out with themselves, apparently, and they liked it. Some people, like, really wanted, I was on Reddit. I was so deep in Reddit, and they would, like, I think they would lie that their dad out of vasectomy undid it. And then they were born to join, like, reversal baby clicks in churches. That's weird. It's become like a religious societal, you know, right way to live life,

even political type of movement, the quiverful movement, with people who leave these communities writing, quiverful movement people, they think that they have the numbers. They're going to be able to control the fate of the government for cultural and technological ends. A lot of women that were part of the quiverful movement have stated that they aren't afraid of dying during childbirth because a lot of them are warned against additional pregnancies. Like if you've had multiple babies,

the doctors will be like, this is not safe. But one states, I really believe that I wouldn't die unless God will that I die. And if he did, then I would accept that. It's a pretty controversial movement, considering it leads families to have a lot of children that they cannot feasibly care for emotionally, physically, financially. A lot of people in the corporal movement are living in poverty. There's food scarcity. The children are growing up hungry and anxious.

But a lot of them argue, if God wants you to have a certain number of kids, he will find a way for you to provide for them. And Jim Bob and Michelle, whether they like it or not, they become the face of the quiverful movement. And it's really not fair because they're multimillionaires making tons of money off of this reality show, this TLC reality show. And there's no more food scarcity in the house anymore. Meanwhile, what they're advocating is leading to food scarcity amongst children in the United States because their parents are falling into the quiverful movement. But the reality show doesn't focus on that. They focus on the fact that all the sons, like they would run marathons in long pants because she's, because she's,

Shorts are bad. Shorts are banned. They would risk a heat stroke. That's really? Yeah. Do they swim? Yeah. So the girls, when they go to the beach, they wear long skirts, which I think is like a pretty huge safety concern.

Long skirt. And the boys wear long pants? It actually becomes big. Do they wear shirts? Yes. It actually becomes a huge scandal when one of the elder daughters wears pants. It becomes like a huge thing. Really?

Which one? They all started wearing pants. Jill, Jessa, and Jen. In the show? In the show? Not in the show, but later on. Yeah. So what if they see other people shirtless on the beach?

They probably scream Nike. Yeah. And they had the infamous tater tot casserole. The Dugger family tater tot casserole. You cannot separate the two. They didn't like invent the tater tot casserole. But they probably ate it every week. It's cheap.

It's easy to make. It's filling. You get frozen tater tots and then you add like cream of mushroom soup, sour cream, all this. You make a casserol. People thought that. that the Duggers loved it so much to the point that I believe they refused to eat it for like three years because everywhere they went to visit anybody, they would be served tater-taught casseroles.

And they have some weird quirks. There's a part in Jill Dugger's books where she says that her family would roleplay different scenarios of what to do. Wait, I'm sorry, why is Tater Tad Casterol a scandal? It's not a scandal. It just becomes like a huge part of their lore. Oh. Yeah. Like they make Tater Tad Casserol and they love it.

And then now everyone thinks they love it. So everywhere they go, they're served a tater-taught casserole. And then the kids are like, fucking hate tater-taught castles now. They finally just came out to say, we actually hate that. Yeah, one of them said, like, we couldn't eat it for three years because all we did eat was tater-taught casserole. Because everyone thought we loved it. Yeah. Then there's a part in Jill Dugger's book where she says that her family would role play different scenarios on what to do to stay as far away from sin as possible to hold the devil with a 10-foot pole, right?

They would practice. What if their friends ask them to read a book? Now, what if someone comes up to you and says, Hey, Joseph? Why don't you read this book right here? It's got a witch in it. Joseph would deliver his line right on cue. I'm a Christian.

I won't be able to do that. Joseph will later be arrested, so there's that. All the kids are homeschooled. They don't even have a weather radio in their house. So if there's a tornado coming their way because they live in Arkansas, their cousins would have to call them and scream at them, shelter in place, shelter in place. I repeat shelter in place.

there was a tornado warning. They had, you know, ironically, they also had an entire camera crew following them around that would be aired to the very, very secular network of TLC, but all in the name of spreading the word of God, I guess. Look, I don't know, but the most controversial things to come out of the show initially, in the very beginning, were the buddy systems. There is no way for Jim Bob and Michelle to raise 19 children. So they just thought, why don't we have the children raise the children?

Michelle says, mom cannot be everywhere at once. And so my older children helped to take care of my younger children. When a baby is born, it's my buddy until it's weaned. And then from there it goes to the other buddy, whose ever turn it is to get a buddy. Guess who's all the buddies? All the girls. Oh, so the guys didn't have buddies? No.

Not really. I mean, like they compare all the girls' tasks, so all of them have to pull their weight in the house. And all the girls, they're doing like 10 loads of laundry, they're cleaning all the rooms, they're doing this and the guys are like, well today, on my list of to-does, I have to feed the dog. Process goes like this. Every doggar has at least one buddy. If you're too old and don't need help from a buddy, that means you're ready to take on a younger buddy.

A big buddy helps you get dressed, brush your teeth, comb your hair, get your breakfast, do your homework, learn to play violin, piano, and sew. They're there to pick you up when you fall and keep track of you when you're out and about. No one is exempt from the buddy brigade. Yeah. So, I mean, the boys did have buddies, but like, they're not really doing much. Jim Bob's buddy is Michelle, because he still needs to be catered to and taking care of, like a fucking infantile toddler. And Michelle reserves the privilege of being each of the children's very first buddy.

Basically, 11-year-old little girls becoming parents while the boys are off being boys. But they also have the courting system. Like a lot of fundamentalist Christians, the Dugger family has a tendency to get married very early with the exception of two siblings. most of the others get married 18, 19, maybe early 20s, and you could say it has to do with their dating system, courting system, the system where God is the ultimate chaperone. So the rules are this, no dating, no kissing, no handholding, no frontal hugs. If you want to spend time together, chaperones must be there.

Spend time with somebody else, you mean? Like a new person? If you want to spend time with someone that you are going to marry, even if you're on the phone with them, another sibling has to chaperone and make sure you're not doing anything on God. And maybe America is the chaperone, because we're just watching this all play out on the reality TV show, a lot of it comes from this decades-old book that got a lot of evangelical Christians like in a knot where the author states dating is training for divorce. So courtship should be a godly thing. A young Christian man should decide that he is financially, spiritually, and emotionally ready for marriage.

And he's going to approach the father of a potential bride, asking permission to be in a supervised relationship with the explicit intent. marry. So, um, a few questions, right? How did they meet people if, how do they know who's, they just walk by someone on the street and, and decide that's the person or? No, so they all go to similar churches. A lot of them got courted by people they either went to the same church with or they would have these like youth seminars all around the nation where people with same ideological beliefs would gather for like summer camp, VBS. Ooh, that used to be the bane of my existence. BBS? Yeah, vacation Bible study. They would like starve us. It was a thing. Yeah, you couldn't get your food until you memorized a ton of Bible verses. And I was like a chubby little

hungry kid and I would come back just like so hungry. Yeah, it was actually like, I don't even know how that's ethical, but okay. So, okay, so you see a girl. that you kind of like and you go straight to the desk saying, I'm going to marry her. Yeah. Is there like a trial era? Like, do I have to marry this person? Yeah, most likely.

Really? Yeah. Yeah, because I guess if a girl was courted by multiple men, she's just a whore, right? Yeah. And girls can no say in a lot of this. So, I mean, it really depends on the family. There are certain families on Reddit who are saying, like,

no, I don't really believe in this courting system. But there are also a lot of families deep in this religion where they say, if God wants a man to marry you, the man will want to marry you. And that's God's will. The author that wrote this book that some people would accredit to the beginning of this courting system would later pull his own book from publications, stating that he gave millions of people the wrong advice and that he's not even a Christian anymore. So like, what the hell? A lot of people built courting systems based off this original book.

and now he's just like taking backseys, his information. He's like, oops. But the Duggers, they had their own little spin on it. Apparently, Jim Bob, who a lot of people, like I said, call Rimjob, would have potential suitors for his daughters fill out 45-page applications questionnaires. Which, you know what? It's not the craziest thing in the world. I feel like that's something I would do if I had a daughter in this world.

However, the questions aren't even good. The questions are not even good. There is an alleged leak version of it online where some of someone, of the questions. Okay, some of them are completely valid. Like when someone gets married, do you have any financial debt? If so, explain the extent and circumstances. You should probably know your partner's credit score before you get married. Okay, yes, that fine. But other questions are just weird. Would you be willing to die for Christ? If you're not dying daily, how can you be so sure you would die for Christ then? Then, uh, when did the fruit of the spirit start appearing in your life?

I don't even know what that means, sir. Fruit of the spirit? What was your prior experience with dating and romance. Have you ever kissed or been physically intimate in a way with a girl or a woman? If so, explain the circumstances. What is your stance on terminating a pregnancy? What about in the case of our wording? What are your views on child training, including corporal punishment? When at home or in the car? Who does the temperature have to be set to please? You or the others in the car? How about in regards to your mom or sister? So if you're in the car with your mom and sister and your partner? Yeah. Who do we set the temperature catering?

to? Yeah. What's the right answer according to Jim Bob? The man, duh. What about the man and Jim Bob in the car? Jim Bob. I see. Yeah. Yeah. What a weird question, no? Like, can you imagine telling my dad that in the car, you're the one that sets the temperature? My dad would bonk you over the head. That's actually insane. Yeah. How will you approach your wife or daughters if they are immodest? What are your views on public swimming? One of the suitors counts, you know, one of the suitors, one of the quarters states, I got sent a 50-page questionnaire. I sent it back at 105 pages. What does that mean?

Like he came back with a lot of answers? Yeah. Michelle Dugger also has words of advice for her daughters, according to their book, a love that multiplies. She says, for instance, I have told my girls that romance novels are to women, what pornography is to men. They stir up emotions with unreal fantasy. In contrast, God's word tells us to think on things that are honest, pure, lovely, and of a good report, which is crazy. She doesn't like romance novels?

Yeah. What's wrong with romance novels? She's saying it's unrealistic standards. And like, I think we know that. I'm not expecting that, honey, you're going to be the leader of the Russian mafia and a billionaire that's going to storm in and kill people. who even dare look at me because you're so possessive, but like, I don't know why she is, like it's so bizarre. Sounded like she read some.

Yeah. You know? Like, hmm. Yeah. I don't think romance novels sounds anything like what you just said, but to her, she probably read it. Right. Exactly. And her romance novel is probably like the diet romance.

Hey, you never know because some of these guys, they say one thing and do the other things. That's true. You never know. Michelle, I want to know. I wouldn't know you're read on Goodreads, okay? And from again, a reality TV standpoint, we love Love Island. We love Love is Blind. We also apparently love courting in the 19 kids and counting because this whole dating process

is part of the reason that the show is so successful. I think it's the dating. It's the fast-pacedness of courting. It also feels higher stakes because usually the courting phase lasts a very short amount of time, a few months. And then they get married at the altar and they're like, oh my God, I'm going to have my first kiss, I'm going to like have a kid and the cameras are everywhere. We are the unpaid chaperones. Wait, so all of these people, we see them start courting on the show and they get married in a couple months. And there's no divorces so far? Nope. Really? Even when there are crimes committed against

children, there are no divorces. Like genuinely the rhetoric in their beliefs and I'm not saying there as in the children, but maybe perhaps because the lack of divorce is kind of astonishing and circumstances, but I think their view of divorce is genuinely, you might as well sever your relationship with Christ. But the whole point of this is just to get you familiar with Joshua, the firstborn Dugger child, and to understand him and why he gets locked up in federal prison for over a decade for crimes against children. So in order to understand that, we also have to know, like I said, we got to know 19

Kinson County, the reality show, which I just told you about, but we also have to talk about Jim Bob's political run. this is a high bar to call a political career it's just disastrous i feel like you i mean okay everyone holding office their career has been disastrous jim bob's career is a car crash straight into the capital but he hasn't even made it in the car the car is driving itself and he's just like chasing after it trying to get into the car crash his political career is a mess he does get elected as a house representative in the arkansas house of representatives and then wins re-election but instead of seeking a third term, he's like, I got to run for the Senate in Arkansas because

God told me to. And God wants me on vacation. But the world works in mysterious ways. Here we are. Right. But he first runs for Senate. And the only issue he seems to care for is abortion. And apparently, he hates Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton being elected horrified him into action. So I don't know, maybe he's got a good chance, right? So the person that he's running up against is another Republican. He's actually got in a lot of hot water. This is why I think he has a good chance. So this Republican that was in the Senate, he's all God is good all the time, all the time, God is good. And then he goes and divorces his wife of 39 years and then marries a former employee. And his voter base is like, um, hello? What the hell was that? This guy is a former Southern

Baptist minister turned politician, turned divorcee, turned second marriage with a former staffer who's much younger than you? I mean, what? So Jim Bob is going to up against that. Most people could win up against that. He just doesn't know anything about politics. During debates, when he's asked to address key issues, he's like, come on kids, and he'll bring 13 of his kids on stage, and they'll sing a song. And everyone is like, we asked you a question. And he's like, shut up, I'm a family man. Needless to say, he gets wrecked. He loses. But he runs again after and then fails. And then he just ends up helping other Republicans like Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum stating that he loves Rick

because Rick wants less government intervention in our lives except when they want to control women's bodies. Okay? Interestingly enough, Jim Bob very vocal about wanting to make rape and incest capital crimes. Basically, if you commit incest, you should be killed by the government. Keep this in mind for later. It's just like a mess of a political career.

And if you think that Jim Bob has very, anti-everything values in politics in Arkansas, there are two gyms in politics in Arkansas with these beliefs. You've got Jim Bob and his very close best friend, Jim Holt. So Jim Holt is going to be important, okay? Jim Holt has a lot of similar beliefs to Jim Bob. He and his wife, Bobby, have 11 kids. And Jim Holt has won a seat in the Arkansas House of Representatives where he co-sponsors a bill that would require public schools to state that evolution is an unproven theory. He's also homophobic. He said that, quote,

if my own mother voted against the federal marriage amendment, I'd be campaigning against her. Every person in America has come together on this issue of same-sex marriage. We have the issue that is we must defend our traditional values. He also said for Roe v. Wade, it is a terrible decision and should be overturned. If we truly care for the women of our great country, we must end this cruel and gruesome procedure.

Depressing, yes. But Bobby Holt, the wife of Jim Holt, says that she's known the Duggers for Dugger's. decades. They're all in politics and they all go to the same church. They do Bible studies and ski trips together and the Dugger kids apparently call her Auntie Bobby Holt. It would, you know, only make sense, right, that their children would eventually court each other. So Joshua Dugger was originally not by most people's beliefs going to marry Anna Dugger. The little governor, that's what they call Joshua Dugger, asks Jim Holt for his eldest daughter, Kaylee Holt's

handed marriage. They start the courting process. It's kind of expected, common knowledge. On the show? No. Oh, secretly? This was like before. Oh. And it was common knowledge that this was going to happen in the community and they were just going to get married.

Like that was it. No one ever, no one was like even looking at Joshua as someone who was going to be courting anybody else because that's how close they were. They're like two boobs in a bra. And then. No, because I have to find some happiness somewhere sometimes because this was so depressing. Okay. But the Holtz find out. Something really, really bad about Joshua.

Something that requires Josh to be sent away for four months, away from his family, his parents, his siblings, and the Holtz, they want Joshua to never come around their daughter ever again. But nobody knows why. Then how do we know this? It comes out all later. But around that time, the courting just like ends abruptly. It's not happening.

They're not doing it. And that's where Jim Bob and Jim Holt, they suddenly become icy. Everyone's like, okay, something happened. and then Josh gets sent away for months. Sent away where? To this like other Christian family who run a home remodeling business and he's got a home remodel. Okay.

And then Joshua comes back. Now they're on a TV show and he starts courting a girl named Anna Keller. She's number five of eight children in the also deeply religious Keller family. She is, the Keller family are very different from the Duggers. They are financially not well off. and a lot of people, a lot of internet users, and people who run in the same fundamentalist circles, say that Anna Keller's dad is all about marrying up in the religious ladder.

They meet at a homeschooling conference, and Josh is like, that's the one. He asked the Kellers if he can court Anna Keller. Their courting relationship, eventual wedding and marriage are all documented on the TV reality show, even the wedding planning. Josh is all like, men approach planning a wedding. I think I'm more of the kind,

you know, I look at it more of like a systematic process. I say. So, you know, like here's the desired result and here's the way we need to accomplish it. Women look at it as like a wedding and X, I, Z has to happen in between. She's just saying nonsense. He's just saying like whatever comes up in like three neurons that are going off. Okay. They just have a lot of uncomfortable moments. And his dad also say it's the way God ordained it. Josh becomes the authority at the wedding. He becomes her authority, not me. And that's the way God designed the transfer of authority. And it's a good design. So basically, women can never have authority. over themselves. They must always have a man being authorized for them. Okay. Okay. So like the logic is

women cannot be responsible for themselves and it needs to be a man. So God has the ultimate authority. And then a woman, usually it's their dad. And then once they get married, they're under their husband's authority. Now, when they get married, Jim Bob gives Joshua a CD from like this guy named Ed Weed, who is a pre-marriage counselor. It's a guide on how to quote, instructions on how to give a good hand job and be available at all times. Oh, when you say CD, it's like a CD player CD. Yeah. I thought it was cash deposit.

I was like, oh, he gave him some cash. No, it gives like a CD video tutorial CD for the two of them to watch on their wedding night on how to give a good hand job and be available at all times. Be available at all times. That is what women are taught in certain circles of this religion, that you should be joyfully available for your husband. at all times. Jim Bob explains, it's so important for the man to learn to cherish his wife and for him to realize that it takes a lot longer for her to kind of get in the mood and stuff after they're married

versus a man is instant on, instant off, but a woman, it takes time. Spoken like a true man who has never pleased a woman before. At the wedding, Josh sings a song of loyalty. That goes like, when you have hard times and all the others are gone, I will be there. When the troubles are come, you know, when the troubles have come through sunshine or rain, when no help can be found, things may seem homeless, things may seem hopeless, but just look over. And if you think that I'm tone deaf, his is worse, his is worse. I will say how they get married is a lot. They were planning on courting. But Anna stated specifically that she did not want to officially start courting until she was 20 years old. Josh surprises her by proposing to her. They don't court,

proposes to her at her 20th birthday party. And she looks like, uncomfortable. What do you mean? So you mean, like, Anna's like, that's a stranger right there. Basically. He's trying to marry me. And she, like, looks surprised and finally she whispers yes. And Michelle Dugger explains, Anna, since it was your 20th birthday and you had made that commitment to the Lord that you wouldn't court or get engaged or whatever until you turn 20, your daddy, you know, had said he really wanted you to keep that commitment. So I guess Joshua and your daddy figured out all this together to surprise you. Three months later, they're married. Anna goes from her

dad's house in Florida to her husband's house in Arkansas, and people describe their relationship as a super fan meets religious royalty. Like Anna is just obsessed. She has never lived alone. She's never had a real job. She's never, she doesn't even have a driver's license for the first few years that they're married. And within a year of being married, she's pregnant with their first child. And they later become known as the M kids. So they carry on the tradition of naming all their children with the very first initial, all their names start with an M. Now, They're leaving the family size up to God. So they're just having as many children as God wills, right?

But one thing to note that comes out during the scandal is, while Anna Dugger and the M kids are always spotted wearing $2 flip-flops because they don't really have a lot of money and it's a lot of kids, Joshua Dugger is out here spending $1,000 on Ashley Madison. Furthermore, a lot of people who personally knew Anna Dugger said that she was quite loud and opinionated before marrying Josh and just having babies back to back. they thought that slowly she started talking like Michelle Dugger, like just real soft, tone things down.

Everything is what they call a pastor's wife whisper. They even used covenant eyes. So Anna was Joshua's accountability partner. But somehow he bypasses that to get on Ashley Madison and OKCupid and watch explicit videos, which is the whole point of the covenant eyes. But Anna stays. A lot of people feel a lot of sympathy, but they thought it was predictable that Anna would choose to stay with her

husband. You know, everyone around them just spoke about it as if Joshua Dugger was also a victim in this. Like, that's how this whole scandal gets handled. Jim Bob during a sermon, he's nervously giggling. I guess you've read it in the newspapers or seen it on TV, but we've gone through a lot of trials. Michelle says, I don't think I need to talk to Josh. I'm going to talk to our heavenly father. After the medicine thing? Yeah. I'm sorry, if my son is cheating on his wife and their children, I'm not talking to God. my fist is that's not condoned however i will be very angry like it's just like crazy she's talking about it as if later a bodyguard of the duggers comes out because they had to get a bodyguard at one point and allegedly the bodyguard claims that he was in the car with the dougar group and they drive up to josh's

car and josh is driving and he's also like watching x-rated videos he's like not even holding it near his leg under the wheel to be discreet as per the a m a on reddit he said quote Josh kept his phone on a hands-free, like, stuck onto the windshield, and there was just, like, porn. Wait, hold on. He stuck what on? Where? His phone on the windshield, so he could drive hands-free, and there's just X-rated videos playing while he's driving. And he's just like, he knew that we were in the car.

Either he didn't care or he didn't know, I don't know. But, like, what do you expect from couples who follow the religious semi-cult leader? Some would call it a cult. I wouldn't call it a cult because cult leaders love giving. season desist, but his name is Bill Gothard. More on him later. But on the website for IBLP, which is what they follow, basic life principles, they have this article titled, Should I Confess My Secret Sin to My Wife and How? So these are for husbands. And the article reads in short, yes, you should. When you come clean with your wife by confessing moral failures,

you will have a feeling of euphoria. It will seem as though hundreds of bricks have been taken off your shoulders. However, in a sense, your wife will now be carrying this burden. Now is when you say, thank you God for setting me free. I now choose to do whatever it takes to see that my wife is set free and healed from the truckload of stuff I have dumped on her. Another article says, God clearly says he hates divorce. Divorce is linked with treachery and violence in our day of increasing violence, even among Christians, may God give us the strength and courage to call divorce what God calls it, breaking a covenant. So when Joshua bypasses the covenant eyes to cheat on his wife, everyone just says, I mean, he's got to humble himself before God. Even Ben Shapiro tweets,

the left don't target Josh Dugger because he's a garbage fire. They target him because he advocated Christian values. I don't know how you advocate Christian values when you're on Ashley Madison, okay? But Anna chooses to stay and some people can understand given her circumstances, her religious background, and a lot of other couples who chose to stay together after the Ashley Madison leak. It's not just Christians. So if it were just that, maybe people could understand. understand Anna Dugger, but they don't. Because the thing that confuses people is, right around the time of the Ashley Madison League and scandal that's happening, there's bigger problems. Like the real reason Joshua Dugger never married Jim Holt's daughter, it wasn't political differences. It's because

the Holtz found out that when Joshua Dugger was 15 years old, he molested his younger sisters and confessed to it. But did Anna and her family know about it? And just how long has everybody been covering for Josh Dugger? And what about his victims? And how is this connected to the two other Duggers that were arrested this year like a month ago? Another one for crimes against children. Would Anna Dugger still have chosen to stay then if she knew that in a few years, her husband, Joshua Dugger, would bypass the Covenant Eye system that they had in place and be arrested for downloading some of the worst CSAM content, including infants and children,

that the federal investigation working on that case, they said it was one of the worst that they had ever seen. There are links to some of the content that he pulled and it was linked to Daisy's destruction. And that is where I leave you with the video part one, audio part two of the Dugger Empire Fall. There's going to be the next part we're going to go through Joshua's trial and then the two other Dugger's arrest. So stay tuned, be safe and I will see you in the next one.