Rotten Mango - “My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Family nudist camps. They’re real and exist today. Children are 100% allowed. Clothes are not. A lot of people wonder if it’s uncomfortable for children, which one camp addresses in their website’s FAQs: Q: Are children forced to be nude? A: The word “forced” is an emotionally loaded word that suggests unreasonable force or other inappropriate coercion… Most children are very comfortable with nudity until they are taught otherwise by society. With young naturist children, it’s just as likely that parents “force” them to wear bathing suits when visiting municipal pools where bathing suits are mandatory.” This is where Donald Gordon and his other pedophile friends would make bets to see who could molest the most amount of kids. These were his hunting grounds. But Don didn’t need to ‘hunt’ for the little girl that accompanied him because he was already friends with her parents. Her parents were pedophiles as well and introduced their youngest daughter to them. Lisa was just 11 years old when Don started abusing her; frequently taking her to these family nudist camps where she was preyed upon by others. This is Lisa’s story.   Full shows notes at rottenmangopodcast.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

There are a few workplaces where most employees feel fear on a daily basis where they could actually die, not just a, I hate my job, I could die, or technically bad people and a meteor could strike anywhere at any moment. But this is genuine. The second you clock in for work, adrenaline starts spiking, because you can die at any moment. One employee states ominously, ultimately, where, directly in harm's way every single minute. We come to work with the attitude of it's not if I'm going to get hit, but when I'm going to get hit. That's just the way of life. Which is why when you clock in for this job, you get handed and alarmed that you wear on your body at all times. It has a GPS. It sends immediate signals to the police when it's activated. You also get this giant whistle to make sure that if something happens, you can alert by making a loud

noise. This is a state psychiatric hospital where the population consists primarily of patients who have committed crimes, violent crimes. Some of the patients have committed murder, violent assaults, and yet they're here because they have either been found criminally insane, incompetent to stand trial, or they're awaiting to stand trial, and they're being evaluated. One psychiatrist states, treating these people is not easy. Violence is part of our everyday life. It's a constant thing. It's not like the violence happens now and again. It's part of the daily life here. One employee at Patton State Hospital in California,

which has about 1,300 patients, she started feeling uncomfortable. Because one of the patients there, it felt like he was tracking her movements, just observing her. Every time she clucked in for work, it felt like she was being stalked. It's a big deal. She tells her boss about it. They do nothing. By the next month, the patient punches her in the face,

drags her into a room, and stabs her repeatedly with a makeshift weapon. These are the types of patients that are held at Patent State Hospital, which is exactly where Donald Gordon is sent. He is going to be there for at least two years. He has this record of over 40 different charges of essay or abuse against a minor, and he says the reason for all of this, he's telling the Patent State psychiatrist. He says, well, everybody does it. Also, some of them were promiscuous, and they were the ones that came after me.

Side note, his own children were his victims as well. the neuropsychologist in charge of evaluating him states Don Gordon's marriages weren't doing well he kept trying to stop himself he was thinking about stopping himself he indicates he knew that it was illegal and he could get into a lot of trouble going after children but he said the more he did it the more chances that he would get but he said that he just kept making this commitment to himself that he was going to stop and he just couldn't he didn't stop he said the more he did it the more sexually

stimulated and aroused he got that his sex drive actually increased To his surprise, he wasn't getting satiated or satisfied. He was actually getting more stimulated, and then he became obsessed with getting more and more and more. He tells the psychologist that the main reason that he went after little girls is because it made him feel, quote, big, powerful, and good. But he says, don't worry, because when I get out, it's going to be better. I'm never going to do this again.

In fact, I'm going to put parental controls on my own computer so that I can't even watch anything that would get me feeling some type of way. They alarmingly, the authorities, find a lock of girls' hair in a plastic baggie at his house. And the only reason that he was even caught again this time was because he went to a photo development center where you can turn in film from those film cameras to be developed. And he turned in a role that just had CSAM everywhere. And yet, Patton State Hospital lets him out. Even though he had used the hospital as a networking place to meet other sex offenders

and reunite with them at a family nudist camp to compete to see. who could molest more children. He used the hospital as a networking event. Which, side note, family nudist camps are an interesting place. Children are allowed to go, and most camps have rules that everybody must be nude at the property. I mean, a lot of people wonder if it's uncomfortable for children. One camp addresses this in their FAQ section of their website, frequently asked questions. And they answer the question, are children forced to be nude?

The response is, the word forced is an emotionally loaded word that suggests unreasonable force or other inappropriate coercion. The reality is that as parents, we have a duty to teach our children to behave appropriately. We teach them to brush their teeth and eat healthy foods, even if their desires might be contrary. However, when it comes to nudity, most children are very comfortable with nudity until they are taught otherwise by society. With young, naturalist children, it's just as likely that parents force them to wear bathing suits when visiting municipal pools where bathing suits are mandatory. It's a very weird FAQ page, one that makes me personally uncomfortable but I'm not a very pro-clothing person so what do I know

another rule page states sunburned shoulders may require a reasonable length t-shirt perhaps to the waist but certainly not extending to the knees or ankles going about the property wearing a towel except perhaps for the first few moments out of the water is always inappropriate I know that in certain countries being nude is not stigmatized or associated with sexual connotations like here in the U.S. But these camps clearly can be a breeding ground for predators. Why would they not go there? Like Don Gordon and his friend from the institution that they used as their hunting grounds. This is also somewhere Donald Gordon will take Lisa. One of Don Gordon's victims is Lisa Plum, whom he started abusing when she was just 11 years old. Don will say that he just wanted to be

a father figure to Lisa, which is why he abused her. Because both of Lisa's parents, were pedophiles as well. And her mom, Lisa's mom, is the one that introduced her to Donald Gordon. This is Lisa's story. is Glen Eden Sun Club? Glen Eden Sun Club is a family new discount, which means everybody gets naked together, and it's a resort. There's pools, jacuzis, sauna, cafe, hiking, tennis, camping. You walk into this resort style.

Is it like a hotel? Is it like a country club? I mean, I haven't really seen a lot of country clubs. It's not nice, nice. It's more, I guess, like camping, but there's grassy area, and there are, I think, little cabins. People even live on site. But when you walk in, you will see a sign, clothing is not optional. Oh, so you have to be nude.

If you're there, you have to take your clothes off. If you even try to throw on a jacket because you're cold. Well, maybe if it's cold, everyone might put a jacket on. But it doesn't get really cold too much there. Maybe in the evening people might. Even children have to get naked. And it's all ages, from infants to grandparents, like all ages. It's off of the 15 freeway near Lake Elsinore, and you'll see a billboard, Glen Eden Sun Club,

and you go off on that exit, and it's like a windy road in. So you can't see anything from the street. And then there's a mountain, I don't know what the mountains are behind it. So it's kind of nestled there, and you go up to a toll booth, and they're naked there. And you pay your fee or whatever there, and then you drive into the parking lot, disembark from there. When you get out of the car, you can walk to your spot and disrobe there or just in the parking lot. And the first time you went was when you were five? Yeah.

Who took you? My mom had a boyfriend, Larry Feldman, that decided we should all go to Glenn Eden. Was there an explanation he gave? I don't remember a specific explanation for Glenn Eden other than other times he said to us, specifically me and my sister, that he was doing what he was doing so that we wouldn't grow up to be frigid. And this is a boyfriend of your mother? Yeah, grown 40-year-old or so. How long was Larry in your life? Probably about a year, give or take.

You go to the nudist camp with your mother and Larry, and what do you guys do there? Are you guys together, and then you're walking around the camp, or is it split between adults and children? My experience has been we go find a spot on the grass seat area, and people will put out towels and blankets and have a picnic and stuff, as kids kind of just took off. There's two pools, one for not as good swimmers

and another for you have to get a dolphin tag to get into that pool. I don't know if it was only kids. Seems like it was mostly only kids in the small pool. Did you want to be there? Was it uncomfortable? No, we did not want to go get naked in front of each other. Yeah, that was like a horrifying idea

when it was presented to us. And especially my brother, and sister, you know, said, we don't want to get naked. That was just not an option. So you were five. How old were your brother and sister? My brother would have been eight or nine, and my sister 10. Oh, wow. I mean, I thought it was interesting because I was listening to another interview that you did. And I was like, there's no way this resort is still around. I googled it and it's still open. people are going today and then I was thinking okay well maybe it's one of one that's still open but there's so many throughout the country there's just so many all ages nude resorts

do you feel like that is a place where bad things happen from someone who wants to be naked in front of kids yeah I mean who wants to see naked kids right I know that you're working on passing laws to ban nudist camps. Is that like a difficult process? Like there's a lot of people fighting back against that? Well, I'm starting the research part. And I have talked to some people. There does seem to be a big resistance for the outreach that I've done to some politicians without getting a response so far. I haven't made it like my part-time job yet. But all the previous victims are for it. Yeah. Yeah, because it's definitely not safe for children because it's a petable magnet. And if you're a pedophile and you know about it, why wouldn't you go? And they let

people go, right? They may have tried to change some rules now. I don't know. But that's who took me. It was pedophiles. And then there's pedophiles there. And then bad things happen on site as well. When you say that's who took you peddifiles, do you mean just Larry or Larry and your mom? Well, my mom, I don't know, I guess depending on how you define pedophile, but she didn't have a problem being sexual around us children. What do you mean by that? One day I heard some strange noise in my mother's room, and at five, I really had no context or idea. And I went in, and again, I did not understand what I was seeing other than I was freaked out. But they were having intercourse.

But at the time, again, I didn't understand, and I asked my mom, are you okay? But they had called me in the room and then told me to sit down. It was not like you walked in and then you freaked out. It was they asked you to come into the room. And they just made you sit the whole. And watch, yeah. Was there any discussion with your mom after that happened? Did she ever say anything? I mean, I'm assumed when you're so young, you can't bring it up.

Yeah, I don't remember any discussion other than another time. They did that on the kitchen table. I have no idea why the kitchen table, but I had forgotten this part, but one of my siblings told me that Larry asked my brother to take pictures, gave him a camera. And so it's us three kids. kind of awkwardly giggling and just like, you know, looking around watching. Do you think that your mom was a profile who attracted other profiles, or do you think that she was someone who just was so starved for male attention? Not that it would justify anything, but...

Right. I mean, she definitely was different than, like, Larry or other profiles, like, they were very intentional and they had plans. So I had a therapist once tell me that she was vicariously molesting me and us. There was actually a scholarly article he gave me. I have it somewhere in a box somewhere. I keep trying to find it. But I don't know. Is she, like she's a vicarious file. She didn't have any boundaries, no problem. I also feel like she was a malignant narcissist. I do believe she was abused and she has a bad reputation in her family for being an awful, scary person. So, yeah, I don't know. In the beginning, it was you, your two siblings that were adopted, your mother and your biological father originally was the, and they divorced when you were four or five.

five what was it like up until four or five as a family unit right so i don't remember a lot because we really don't have picture memory until about the age of five that's um we have implicit memory what is that so our bodies remember but we our brains don't start to make pictures with the memory until about then so most people don't have very many memories at all you may have a couple here and there under the age of five. All I remember really from my early, early childhood is I was a little Episcopalian girl, and we went to church, and I was very devout, and I thought our priests looked like Jesus. Honestly, that's all I really remember. But as soon as my parents divorced, we were no longer going to church. You and your siblings went with your mom after the divorce.

Oh, oh. Yeah. So she had tried to kill herself. I didn't know it at the time. But I do remember, this is one of my earliest memories as well, is her laying down in bed and it dark, it was dark in the room, and she was just kind of out of it. And then my grandma came and stayed with us for two or three weeks, I'm not sure. then after that as my brother has nicknamed her Hollywood mom came home okay describe that my mom could be very charming very personable very put together and she started having singles clubs meets in her home other single adults our home had to be perfectly clean at all times and when she had these singles clubs, we were supposed to basically stay in the room or whatever. But people would meet us and see us. One minute before anybody came, she'd be screaming at us, you know, we'd have to clean and do this and that. And then someone would knock on the door and she'd be like, hi, you know, completely changed her demeanor. Did you find solace in your siblings? Or was it because it was

so tough it you guys were having problems as well? What was that like with your siblings? things. Well, I think there was some, you know, solace, but really not a lot. I suppose it was probably because of the dynamic that my father set up and my mom because they were adopted. Like one time, like my parents participated in what's called parental alienation syndrome, which is basically one parent's talking crap about the other parent, the other parent's talking crap. about them and you have to like share messages or and or you know they're arguing in front of you you know you're like my mom would say your dad i don't know if i should fully say it but um likes to fmen in their ass you know like to us little kids how old were you i'm five oh oh yeah like right when

you're yeah and um you know my dad's like your mom's crazy so anyway all that's going on and one day i felt like I needed a hug. So I asked my dad for a hug. And he said, no, I don't want your siblings who are adopted to feel bad. So in my mind, I don't think I said it out loud, but I definitely thought, well, just hug them too. Yeah. You know, but it was always pointed out that they're adopted, I'm not they're adopted I'm not so and one time I was trying to comfort my mom because my mom would kind of cycle from angry rampage mom to sobbing sobbing mom and sometimes she'd just be up all night she was a piano player and she would just cry at the piano but this time she was in a room crying I'm trying to comfort her and she said something like I wish your sister in

brother were like you oh I wish I could just run off with you you know and they're like in they're just I could see them looking they can hear and yeah and I felt bad for them and I didn't want her to say that but so we were kind of pitted against each other did they form almost like an alliance or even that didn't happen I don't know I don't know that maybe a little but I think also on top of of that, you know, Larry was also violent and oversized us because there was more than watching them have sex. He would single out myself sometimes and do certain acts with him and my mom, you know, to me. And then my sister in the room alone, I don't recall him doing that with my brother, but he lost his temper one day. And he told me to make him a bath.

Then my brother comes out of his room saying, you know, whatever. My brother, you know, had a cuss her mouth. And Larry just did not like that disrespect. And so he was yelling at him. He grabbed him by his ankles and picked him up and dunked his head in the toilet a few times. So just for clarity, Larry was he the first boyfriend after the divorce happened? Yes. there was another peddle that targeted me but i he was more like just a handyman friend of my mom but

larry was like an official boyfriend was larry the boyfriend that your sister that was the next boyfriend right that your sister caught you guys oh so john john libert he was not really a boyfriend that's that he was the handyman yeah and so i feel like he was before larry or they were almost like at the same time no john you know again these singles clubs and single mothers are pet of magnets so they're just looking for opportunities and the more vulnerable vulnerable the better right so anyway john started doing repairs given this ice cream you know we grew up in riverside and it's hot in the summer and um then he just started molesting me me i was probably in his right age age group. And your sister had walked in. Yeah, so he was molesey me, had brought me crayons in the

coloring book and told me to lay down a certain place. And he had his hand up under my dress. And my sister comes in the house because I was a latchkey kid. We were latchkey kids. We were home alone a lot. My mom would work in the evenings and it was just free rein. She called us Lord of the flies, but she runs in and sees John molesting me and just like gets like really angry and looks at me and what's going on, you know? And I, I didn't, again, I didn't have words. Some people have said, this is why you need to teach kids the proper names of body parts. I agree with that. You should teach kids the proper names of body parts, but that wouldn't have prevented me being molested or some other children in similar circumstances when your family isn't supportive or

they're part of it. So your sister sees that she's almost upset with you. And does she tell your mom? She must have. And I don't blame her, of course, now or anything, but she's nine, you know, trying to figure out what to do. And so there was another time that John had taken me into a field. We lived in like a little middle class neighborhood, and then there was orange groves, and then there was like a horse property. So it was kind of converting, you know, from agriculture, probably. So there was fields. And like, he would take us to Thrifty's ice cream. And he's like, you want to get ice cream, Lisa? Yeah. And, but instead of going there, he drove me into a field. I always remembered that, right? But then as an adult, a trigger happened.

And then I had more memory. And basically, to survive that, I had to do some inner child work. But what happened is he threatened if I told that he would insinuate, like, that my mom would die. He would kill my mom. And again, I really didn't even know what he was talking about. What should I say? Not say. I don't have the words.

And so I just didn't say much. Could I ask what triggered? you later to have my mom's death yeah and at the time and I write about it in the book it was really weird after she died I started getting like these images of him it's like why why him why now you know and but I realized after doing some work some therapeutic work that because he said if I said anything she would die But once she died, there was no need to keep the secret anymore. Wow.

When did your mom pass? 2007? But yeah, when my sister, she must have told my mom and my dad because then a day or so later, they called me into the kitchen, my mom, my sister, and John. And my sister's the one that's upset, you know. and she's like tell tell mom what happened or whatever she said and again you know at the time i'm five and i don't even whatever remember i just don't have much to say but i i didn't say anything what did your parents take from that then they i don't remember anything happening after that other

than john stopped coming by and my sister told me later that he she's friends with his granddaughter or something and that she was being molested by him too, which isn't a surprise, but. At the time, your sister's anger, was that from, was that towards John? Was that towards the situation? Was that towards being young and having no idea what's going on? Right. I mean, I think all of it, she's young. She's not being parented, right? She's seeing bad things happen, and her instinct and you know is kicking in her wise self and she's probably getting like really frustrated with my parents you know my mother really didn't she didn't do anything she there was no comfort there was nothing um like that and then um one day around that time my dad i'm in the car

with him and he said i heard you were molested again what do i say i don't even know what to say to that. And then he said, just don't make a big deal about it. Why do you think he said that? Well, now, because he's a pedophile, he is for sure. He's a bad father. He has no nurturing bone in his body. He doesn't think it's bad for kids. Wow. Probably. And I don't know what that meant, don't make a big deal about, but I remember thinking about it. Like, what does that mean? That's so interesting because I think when a lot of people their parents will tell them not to make a big deal because maybe they don't want it to reflect on the family or maybe they care about what other people think. But it seems like your dad genuinely didn't think it was a big deal.

Yeah, I know that's a fact, yeah. So John's out of your life, and now Larry starts dating your mom or around the time. He is the first person that forces the entire family. to go to Glen Eden. Did you guys go multiple times? While we were at Glen Eden, there was at least a couple of molesters lurking around. I'm sure there was more, but there was a,

I call him the hairy guy. He was in the little pool, the kitty pool, and he had us all lining up and he would pick us up and throw us. He slipped, right, grabbing my growing area and stuff. And it just, it hurt. you know. So he's lining up just children. Children are all lined up. And his excuse is, you know, get tossed in the deeper, you know. Where are any of the other adults had? Just walking around. They see it. They're walking by. No, no second thoughts about it. That is so bizarre. I mean,

I did go down a rabbit hole because I was like, I didn't even know nudist camps for families existed. So I'm looking and I was trying to understand why people would even, advocate for it existing. And I mean, there's this one place. They were doing a Q&A because I was trying to see maybe the other perspective of, is this an establishment that should exist? And it was our children forced to be naked. And their response was so bizarre. It was force is an emotionally charged word. In fact, if you force your child to wear a bathing suit, that is also a use of force. children have to do things they don't want to do all the time for the greater benefit.

It was the craziest thing I've read in a minute of just... Yeah, they're all philosophers. And I'm sure some people go to nudist camps aren't pet of... Yeah. Just have some weird indoctrination, but in the big pool, there was what the kids, this is from the kids. Hey, there's this guy, the doctor. They call him the doctor.

I don't know if he was a doctor, but he, um, would wear goggles and just swim underneath. Oh, my God. I know, people. And nobody was like, we got to call the police. Well, us kids, I don't know what the adults were doing or if anyone told the adults, but we'd be like this, you know, when he'd go to swim under or he's there, we can't really go swimming. Because everyone was like creeped out by him.

And so there was that. And then also, you know, when you're utilized early and you're looking at, at naked people looking at each other like kids are starting to try to you know act out prematurely wow and that seems not like a unique experience because i was reading online of someone saying they had a term called co-g creepy outside guys that would try to get into the nudist camp to look at the children so it seems like it's a a big issue that they try to down like let's just keep doing that. Yeah. How about if you want to be naked in front of adults, keep it to adults. Right. Yes. Leave the children alone. So how frequently would Larry force you guys to go to

Glen Eden? We probably want it every weekend or once a month. But then he gave my mom a letter breaking up with her. Letter. Yeah. And which she had us read. And it was basically he had to break up with her because he just couldn't take us kids anymore. Wow. Right? Your mom made you read, made you guys read the letter? Yeah. What's the reason behind that? Because she's pointing out how we ruined her relationship with this guy. They were going to get married, you know, and us kids again. Were you happy to hear that letter? I mean, I felt sad for my mom. because I did. You know, when your kids, like, before you hit puberty,

usually children are just all about their parents and always trying to do the right thing and really care about them. And anyway, that's how I felt. But also, I didn't miss him at all. Life just went on and what happened, you know, like when you molest a child, you molest the neighborhood, really, right? So my brother had experienced violence early.

civilization and um he started to take that out on me i think there was something you said that stuck with me it was like when you are labeled as having been used people feel like your fair game humans are like that yeah and so my brother just started um he was kind of like the leader boy in the neighborhood my brother and sister were there were tough kids started pantsing me we definitely didn't have video games at the time and stuff. We're always playing outside, hide and go seek and all that. But they became a game, Chase Lisa down, and pounce her. And so they'd rip off my clothes and then, you know, like pin me down and force my legs open and all of that, like over and over and pretend or try to put objects in and just, like, thought that was the most hysterical thing.

What is your relationship like with your brother now? Yeah. So I'll just say, When I started the healing process, I decided I was going to confront the people I could because I was really pissed. Yeah. I started to get really in touch with that. And although my therapist is like, I don't recommend it, you know, I'm like, oh, well, I'm going to go to it anyway. But I started to confront my brother. Out of all the people I confronted, he didn't let me finish. And he said, Lisa, I'm sorry for what I did too.

Do you forgive him? I do. I forgive him. And forgiveness is a really difficult word and how do you define it and all of that, right? But it doesn't erase emotions right away. Sometimes people prematurely forgive. Sometimes they're not open to it. My relationship with him now is not, we don't have a relationship right now.

He's really struggled his whole life, struggled to be regulated, we'll say. I wish there was something I could do or to be helpful in that. But I'm also not going to take verbal or, otherwise abuse. How old were you and how long did that last? So I feel like it happened about the time of Larry, maybe when Larry was still around or right after he left. And it stopped when my stepdad came in my life. Is this Ray? Yeah. Unfortunately, though, the neighborhood kids, like the boys that were involved, I do remember one friend's brother one time was kind of at it, or, you know, part of the group and then he never came back around you know like he's like no i don't want a part of

this but some of some of the other boys did continue so just saying kids have choices too right and he didn't he didn't want to be a part of it but these other boys like down the street they i don't know what was happening to them too but they just took on a life of their own like i'd be riding my bike down the street and they come and pull me off my bike and drag me into their room and one time I'm sobbing on this guy's lap and his mom hears, knocks on the door, opens it, is everything okay? And I'm sitting there like six, seven, eight, I don't know how old I was. And she said, is everything okay to her sons? And they're like, yeah, it's fine. And she closed the door and walked away. So these are other like six, seven, eight year old boys where they are a lot older.

They, they were not six, seven. They were older. I'm not sure if they were, four years older or six years older, but they were definitely stronger than me. And I'm sure if you're riding your bike and they're pulling you off your... I mean, someone's got to see that at some point, right? You would think so. So nobody says anything, nobody, it just keeps continuing. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know what the neighborhood saw or didn't see, but they were just kind of wild kids in the neighborhood.

But, you know, we all smoked, drink, stole what we could from the store, weed. But I was a regular smoker at 8. Who introduced you, just like the other kids at school? I don't even remember. It's like my mom was a smoker. She smoked when she was pregnant with me. I just was born smoking. And everyone smoked then too, right?

And you could get cigarettes from vending machines. but my mom always had a carton and we just like take cigarettes and so i don't even remember my first cigarette so ray comes into your life who is ray um so rayman mcnight one morning i was going to go to school my mom was actually going to take me um but this guy knocks on the door and i go and open it and he's just like hey you know big old smile and he was carrying fuller brush stuff. Do you know what that is? Cleaning supplies, I guess, and mops and whatever,

selling fuller brush stuff door to door. And so my mom invited him in, got him some coffee, and they started talking, and then she took me to school. And when I got back home that day, he was still there. But luckily, he was a good guy, because he could have totally been a bad guy. you know my mom's like hey anybody it's fine um and so they stayed together and raymond he was just um again a good guy and he started to notice some of the dynamic in the family and he was probably

the first one that ever told my brother boys don't hit girls yeah like that's not okay and um he started to parent us. Do you feel like all of you guys felt safer, better with Raymond around? Yeah. Okay. But then he leaves, your mother leaves. Well, so he was a merchant marine. He was a cook on oil tankers, mostly. So he would be gone a lot, but I guess when he wasn't on a ship, sometimes he'd do sales, like fuller brush and stuff. But I was the youngest, and he made up a nickname.

for me, but he would always call me baby or sugar, you know, like from North Carolina, you know. And, um, but then he's like, I want to call you vanilla and he's chocolate, you know, but I remember thinking at the time like, I don't even like vanilla. I'd much rather be chocolate. I like chocolate, but, um, but he wanted that. And so he'd always say, hey, vanilla. And, um, anyway, he, um, I guess I cried a lot at night. And I also had a problem where instead of peeing the bed, like I wouldn't pee for a long time. I was just like, so like in the middle of the night I'd wake up and I'd have to go. I was in a lot of pain. But he wasn't really part of that. But when I was crying, at least a couple times, I remember him coming in and picking me up and carrying me and putting me next to my

mom and then he went to the couch now my mother never did that on her own she just let me cry but he you know because he is a good guy figured oh she needs to be with her mom but um it was that act that was nurturing not him putting me with my mom yeah but having ray in your life did it make you realize because at that point you said right afterwards you didn't really understand that you were traumatized, did that maybe put things into perspective or you were still at the age where it wasn't, you weren't processing it? Yeah, I mean, I don't even think trauma even became a word for many, many years later, at least in regards to childhood. Although one day, I did see a child abuse commercial. Oh. I was looking at it. I was like, does that, am I, you know, am I included?

I didn't, do I count, like, just kind of a weird first introduction to it. So, see, advertising works. Yeah. That's the first thing that got me thinking about child abuse. With Ray, I know now, looking back, what we would say in the therapeutic world is he was a protective factor. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So there's a study called the ACE study, adverse childhood experiences, which I don't like the way they ask some of the questions.

But adverse childhood experiences are basically severely traumatizing or stressful events or occurrences that happen in children's lives. It was actually a California doctor and obesity doctor that started it. At the time, he was interviewing his patients to see if they were ready for surgery. and he accidentally asked the wrong question, how much did you weigh at your first experience? And the person said 40 pounds. And so he was like, oh, oh, I wonder if, like, he didn't mean to ask that, but it's pretty logical now. But he started to wonder if being molested was correlated to being obese.

And it is. They've discovered. But not just that. It's not just 100% correlation. But any adverse childhood experience, physical abuse, parents divorcing, losing a parent, parent in prison, feeling neglected or unloved, I forget the other ones. I don't like how they ask the molestation question because they ask, did someone five years older than you? Right? That's a weird.

That's a big gap. It used to be kind of like two years. You can be molested by someone your own age. Someone just more powerful adults can be molested. But of course, it's different. It's not a child situation. But anyway, there's still, it's ongoing across the world study. What they have found is that the more aces you have, the more likelihood in adulthood

you'll be obese, have cancer, heart disease, drug, alcohol, addiction, and mental illness. Again, it's not 100% correlation, but it's a high, much higher correlation. And really, one of the main reasons is when you go into the stress state, fight, flight, freezer fawn. Your body releases adrenaline, noroprenephrin, cortisol, these chemicals that help us in case, you know, a tiger's attacking us or something. And we need that. So, because then we numb out, we don't feel it, or we're extra strong. We can lift the car off our husband or, um, but you only want to go in it and out. But when you're under these constant stressors, you're always, your body

changes to always being in the stress state. And that feels normal. But it's not good for you, because then you're always in an inflamed state and that's like sucks the dopamine or serotonin from our brain right and then we we're dopamine seekers and there's healthy ways of getting dopamine and unhealthy ways but you know like drugs alcohol all that is quick quick dopamine hits and anyway but when people have protective factors in their childhood their outcomes are better so it kind of it's like a balancing help, yeah. Yeah, so I really think if I hadn't had Ray, I mean, maybe, maybe I wouldn't have been able to survive because he gave me a taste of what love feels like, what it actually feels like. But a protective factor could be a parent, a teacher, a friend, a coach, you know,

just somebody, like every little good thing that you can say to somebody matters. It really matters like you're you're really special or you know i can see you're going to do good in life or all of that adds up i know there's a guy named donald don he was a family friend of your moms or just how did he even come into your life you were 11 yeah i was 11 um my sister uh she i guess she she graduated high school early but this is my memory is she graduated high school and went back to indiana to visit our grandmother via train and on the way back she met Don and Jody the being the pedophiles that they were they saw a young girl you know I'm guessing this is how it happened and started talking to her where are you from blah blah somehow they figured out that she had

been to Glenn Eden before and they're like well you should come to Glen Eden with us you know and oh and you have an 11 year old sister She should go to Glen Eden. So they come over and meet your mom. Yeah. But the first time I met them, like my mom said, you're going to go to Glen Eden. And I didn't want to go to Glen Eden because I don't want to get naked in front of people. And then, of course, I don't want to see the hairy guy or the doctor or whatever, right?

And then I don't know these people. Why do you think your mom was basically forcing you to go to Glen Eden? I mean, she's a malignant narcissist. is basically vicarious like she told me she didn't want me to argue with my brother we argued too much but my brother was beating my ass all the time okay my siblings were beating me up and i mean i did my best right but i was the youngest and and my brother's a tough guy so there was always chaos right my mom yelled us we yelled at each other it just it was always like that but anyway she said that i could go with them and then we wouldn't argue

So your brother's going to stay home. You and your sister are going to go to Glenn Eden with this random couple she met on a train. Yeah. But really the way it was set up, it seemed like it was just me going, but my sister did go, at least the first couple times, but she had a boyfriend. And she was like 16. So what happened is they show up. I have to go. I'm not given the option. But Jody, she's like 6'2. And she was a basketball. player. And I love sports, martial arts and stuff. But at the time, I was, I just loved softball. I was a softball player. And Jody, of course, looking back now, I see it. Like, she was like brilliant in her grooming. But I come out looking at this six foot two tall, skinny, blonde woman, blue eyes. And she has one eye that looks the other way. So I'm trying not to at it, but she's super charming, whatever. They said, oh, you're an athlete. Don said, oh, you're an athlete, huh? Like, what sports do you play? And Jody's like, I play basketball.

And she said she was the first woman to slam dunk it in Illinois or something. I don't know if that's true. Do women sound dunk? Anyway, we don't believe her. Okay. Yeah. But I was like enthralled by her. He's just like this creepy guy, you know. But basically, she's just talking, talking to which is a perpetrator technique um which if you i'll just promote his book the gift of fear by gavin de becker is a really good book to read to learn about perpetrator techniques so you can better guard yourself against them but so she's just talking talking talking and saying you know well let's like race out to the car i have a basketball whatever so we raced right and she's like you almost beat me yeah i didn't and then we

go to Glen Eden. And so I am a smoker at the time, but I'd never smoke in front of adults. And she's like, here, you can have a cigarette. I'm like, really? Me, smoke in front of you? You know, and that's how they got me to Glen Eden. But she just made it all super charming at first. So then we get there. And same thing, you pull up to the toll booth. And the guy's like, oh, is this your daughter? And he's like, no, but I have this letter from her mom. And he's like, okay go on your mom went out of her way to write a letter to send okay okay that's gives them permission to take me yeah and that's probably how most pet of go in if they if there is any rule against a single man or something they just find like a vulnerable woman probably but all the

rules are different so everything was a game with don and jodi um I said I don't want to go I don't want to get naked and Jody's like it's fine we're together and then we get out of the car it's like it's a race who can get naked first you know so then it was just weird you know as usual at the nudist camp just laying out in the sun and naked people trying to not look at them but you can't help it playing tennis just whatever um yeah that's weird okay yeah that so they just have all ages playing tennis naked do you feel like when creepy men or looking like is that something that you can sense at that age too or were you just what happened one time this guy was in the pool with me and kind of dunking me and i guess it was

flirtatious don came down to the pool angry and told me to get out and said that i was acting or something yeah this was later though this was not the first time they had already been actively molesting me at that point. So after this first experience, how did they pray on you and abuse you further? Like, they just kept picking you up for the weekend? Yeah. Your mom just let you go spend the weekends with them. Yeah. So basically how it started was when we went to the apartment, which my mom said I had to go. And I just started going to their apartment. Same rules as Glen Eden. once you step in your clothes are off and so it's family nudist camps are quite the grooming tool yeah so anyway from that point you know I had free reign to alcohol they made me

alcoholic drinks Jody had me cook with her and we gave Don drinks and um cigarettes and then really how it started was one day Jody was at work I didn't like to be alone with Don but I was and we had just been at the mall and we're in his car and he said your sister said that you want to have me and I'm horrified and like terrified at that and I said no no I don't like and I feel like I'm in trouble like he's like your sister said you know but I said no I don't want to and he's like oh it's okay you know it's all right and I said no but I I don't you know like he's probably 40, 39 or 40. And I am 11. And anyway, I was super worried that Jody would hate my guts. So I said, don't tell Jody, please. And finally he agreed. Yeah. So I was afraid that Jody

would find out and then hate me because I just, that's what children do. We're magical thinkers and egocentric, at least till eight, but older too. Like everything feels like it's our fault. That's just the way our brains work. So he said he wouldn't tell Jody, but we picked her up from work. She pops in the truck, and he says, guess what? Lisa wants to have me. And I'm just horrified, and she says, oh, okay, that's fine. I just sunk, you know.

And then the next thing I remember is just them trying to talk me into, little acts like come in the room and watch that's apparently a big thing and you can just start by watching and then I had to scoot closer and then eventually participate more and more but it was always you know a manipulation grooming and um Jody said to me once that if I had a good father I would want to have Okay, so one of the things that he liked to do was watch a movie called Pretty Baby with me. I listened to that part of your interview, and I think the way you were describing it initially, I was so convinced it was like a movie off the dark web, and it's very much a real movie that you can buy online for $3.99 right now. Can you tell us about Pretty Baby, the movie? Right. So,

brick shields the very famous brook shields was 11 or 12 at the time and and i'll just say she was not a developed girl at that age she looked like a child i'll just be explicit no pubic hair no breasts a child's body okay but in the movie she is um the daughter of susan sarandon who is a to at a brothel i guess in new orleans and everyone was just happy and everyone just loves their job right but Brooke Schiltz is reaching the ripe age of 12 which is where she's going to start working and so they're going to have this auction for her virginity basically and it's a whole group of just creepy men bidding on her they bring her out in like I don't I don't remember what you call it but

they're holding her up on a plank or something in the movie dressed in white and and looking like a child with makeup on her and like sparklers and everyone's like oh this is so wonderful you know and brook shields in the movie i know she was a victim just her character is just happy about all of it and it's great um doesn't show any trauma no trauma but then the guy that wins takes her up to the room and you see um soft porn basically you don't see full but you can tell they're having and then she's like screaming and are not screaming but wincing or whatever and then afterwards she's like a clump on the bed and you think she's traumatized right and but then all the other constitutes come in she's like i'm fine and just kind of like she's kidding you know and it's just so great and she's totally not affected by it at all and then you see her bathing and you see her full naked body and they're talking about how they're going to keep selling her as a virgin for a while because they can't can. And then she like, not David Carradine, but one of the guy, one of the caridines is like,

becomes her husband. And he slaps her and, you know, and whatever, she's playing with dolls. But the whole point of the movie really is it's showing like it's totally fine, you know, to have sex at that age and make money. And it doesn't bother you. And so that's one of the things Don said to me. He said that he was busted for molesting his children. But of course, it's not molestation. It's people that aren't aware of like higher laws and, you know, are repressed. Yeah. He said he didn't harm his children. The court system harmed his children. That's what harmed his children. I love the quote when you say all pedophiles are philosophers. They are. Yeah. They have a complete explanation why they are.

living the higher law why other people are repressed they are all pedophiles are philosophers and and he told me too he said you know your mom is crazy like he and jodi would like interject these things and um she was that's true and he knew it but they're also right but also when you tell a child that it's going to alienate them more and cause confusion and when you're confused and you're not sure you're you're not sure you're like you're you're not steady, you don't know. And of course, I really, I know now I couldn't have chosen any differently, but, um, but that's how perpetrators keep people off balance, one of the ways. I know you have a change.org petition to ban Pretty Baby. I was trying to figure out how it's not already banned. Um, right? They say because it's artistic and she was not actively

engaged in being that it's not CSAM, which I think is insane. Because how is it, how can you justify artistic expression on that? Right? That's so strange. Right, because you see, yeah, and they wouldn't make a movie like that now. No. Or they would get in trouble. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure some people would, but not legally. So he would make you watch this movie. Mm-hmm. Yeah, over and over. Just like, here, come sit down. And at the time, he had a projector. It started with me sitting next to him here and Jody there. And then he would touch us. And even on a camping trip we went on, he brought it. There was actually a couple times, I can only think of one right now, but where I see now looking back grooming me to maybe

be a prostitute because, well, of course, pretty baby. right um also trying to normalize it and he was always like it would meet me doing you a favor is how he framed it to be my my first you know like it like it would be a chore for him and you know we're friends and we're like close so this is like the best way and you know but i was resistant i was always like you know and this was just something that he continued to try to do and one time we were in a city somewhere and they said so weird just looking back um we're going to go to like pick a part or something so you should just wait here in this park oh my god okay whatever um so i'm just sitting in this park up against a tree and then a truckload of men speaking another

language start walking towards me like they park and they start walking towards me and i'm like you know and this guy he starts speaking in Spanish hey showing me his wallet and I'm like I don't speak Spanish and he's like me me in the truck and I'm like freaked out and I just said no no no and gratefully they left so you think they set that up yeah I definitely do now so because then I'm sitting there like you know like they left i'm upset and don and jody finally come back and i get i get in the truck and i told them what happened and don said you should have done it wow and how long did this go on for from 11 to 13 so we were always naked and there was other girls sometimes oh yeah the camera was always out yeah i read that what like he was actively taking

pictures or it was i mean it's seeming like if you're at a family event and people are like hey you know or something that's what it was like but i do remember sometimes jody like dressing me up and something but again everything's a game and we're just all happy and having fun together and whatever and drinking a little bit here smoking a little bit there they're still molesting me but as time went on i saw the other girls less and less and um it was just me and don and joddy lot. One day, Dawn said that, you know, I could be a model. And I was like, I thought very low of myself. I thought I was ugly and fat, not that there's anything wrong with whatever you weigh, but anyway. And I didn't like the idea, but he's like, no, no, like, I'm going to take you to

this photographer's, but also some other girls went. I know that on the way there, you hear a voice. So you're in the car with Don and Jody and a bunch of other girls. What happened? Like, the voice comes out of nowhere. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So again, at this time, I think I'm closer to 13.

And I really didn't know anywhere I was ever going, driving, right? Except for like right where I grew up, I knew that area. Anyway, I'm just in the back of the pickup truck. Just going to those photographers, even though I didn't want to, I did. I heard a voice and said, Lisa, memorize how to get there. I just kind of shrugged it off like that was weird, you know. Then I heard it again, Lisa, memorize how to get there. And it just felt like really kind and like, do it, you know, sort of like, really please do it.

And so I did. I just, I looked out, opened up the little shell window and I'm like memorizing like it's This is in Santa Ana, California, 14th Street, 7th Street, like I'm memorizing, and then we pull up and it's like this two-story office building with the doors, almost like a hotel. It's kind of ugly. And then I didn't really think about it after that. At the studio, what happens? The photographer that Don wants you guys to meet. What was that like? So we all race up, you know, because it's a game, and I'm up there. And they opened the door, and this guy is sitting behind this desk. And he had a Rubik's Cube. So I said, hey, can I play with your Rubik's Cube?

And he just, like, coldly met my eyes with his and didn't say anything. But just like this really uncomfortable, you know, like, it made me just, like, look away and I just sat down. So the pictures were just not naked or anything, and we got over that. I would say the next week. Well, before that happened, I was alone in the apartment at Don and Jody. And I heard him talking on the phone with this guy. And he said, Lisa will do nude pictures. I said, because it seemed surprising to me for some reason.

I said, no, I won't. And Don turned and looked at me like, you know, and, you know, because he's on the phone with the photographer. And he said, you know, sit down. And he's usually trying to be a Mr. Nice, fun guy. And that was it. But then later that week at school, detectives came to my school to interview me. Don and Jody had gotten busted.

Do you know how? Now I know that at the time they had what's called photomat. Yeah. You used to have to turn in your film to get pictures developed. And he turned in the pictures of his victims. Yeah, probably. she just brought his like role to the photo mat like he thought this is completely normal or was it an accident i mean that's what i heard i'm not 100 100 percent but i think i read that in

a police report or something so the police come to the school and i know that you had a guidance counselor was she a counselor or was no i had mr mason as a guidance counselor he was another protective factor okay he was super nice to me through seventh and eighth grade which were very hard for me very bad but um so what miss brewer was the office lady and she did not like you she didn't like me because i was always sick i did start to ditch but i started by just being sick she was just always like really bitchy to me really mean and so i just kind of gave it back to her so i'm in the middle of p.e i get a yellow or pink slip to go to the office and there's her face i'm like but she was like nice instead of like, you know, and said, these are the, these are detectives, so and so and so and so.

And they're here to interview you. Again, I'm just like, overwhelmed a bit. So they ask you questions about Don and Jody. And then your mom comes to pick you up from school. Yeah, yeah. So by this point, she already knew that the police were talking to you. Well, like usually I rode my bike to school, but yeah, that day she was picking me up and they had asked questions and asked me why my mom let me go, you know, and I said, well, I had to go. She told me how to go. And they said, well, we need to, I don't know. He said, you're going to go to a shelter home, which I didn't really understand, again, at the time that it was because they were suspicious of my mom and going to put me somewhere safe, I guess. Do you think that your mom knew what Don and Jody were doing?

I mean, I think so now. Mm-hmm. Again, at the time, I don't know. But, like, when we, she came in the office and I'm walking out, I guess, to go to the shelter home, she, like, grabs me and hugs me. Why didn't you tell me? And tell you what? Like, you know, I didn't think about it at the time, but obviously, I remembered, like, all the stuff you did with me. you know like um but obviously she was just trying to look good you know in front of the police

officers and like she never hug me before i mean if she knew what was happening do you think like what would she get out of her daughter being abused she i i guess i'm struggling to understand do you have any ideas or i always just had the feeling that my mom, like whatever attention she could get, maybe, but also, I couldn't, I didn't really see that growing up because you can't really face that demon yet, but I do think that she somehow, I don't know, like projecting, like parents often project onto their children unresolved issues, and maybe she hated herself ultimately for whatever possibly happened to her punishing herself vicariously through me or, you know, early wounds, like emotional wounds

that happen in the first few years do create personality disorders. And she definitely had a personality disorder, I'm sure, you know, history on it, but narcissists, and just very mean. But also, you know what, people have choices to be mean or not. And I don't know, only God can sort all that out. But she was just always, maybe a power thing. Maybe she gained some sense of power by trying to demolish me in a sense. So they're arrested. Did you have any feelings in that moment? Felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt confused. So that was the feeling in the moment. When did it change? When did you feel like I shouldn't feel this way? What did it take years? Yeah, it took years.

In this shelter home, you get in there and the girls are like, what are you in here for? Oh, I was beaten. Oh, I was molested. And I'm like, what am I in here for? I don't know. You know, but we concluded I was molested. Well, I had found out about the photographer at this point. And I thought, what? Does that mean they don't love me? You know? What exactly happened to the photographer? He was taking photos of kids. Yeah.

So when I was first put in the shelter home like the next day, I was interviewed by Orange County detectives. One of the detectives, somehow it's just me and him in a room. And he said, do you happen to know where this photographer is? And how I even knew to ask the questions, right? Or find me or anything else. I don't know, but he said, Don and Jody don't know where this photographer is. And I was like, I remembered I memorized how to get there.

And before I could say that, he said that he was known for killing kids. Killing kids? Yeah. He literally told me, a girl was found in a dumpster and a boy was tied to a chair. My whole life, I was like, it feels like I'm making it up when I say it, you know? years later the detective that um that one of the detectives was very kind to me and let me made it so i could play softball took me out to dinner with this family but i called him years later and i asked him about it did you know and he said yes i did but i knew he was a snuff filmmaker

but i didn't want you i don't want to burden you anymore but they got him or i don't know So that detective in the room told me that. And then I said, I know how to get there. That's crazy that you heard that voice. I mean, I... And you took them there? And I took them there. You guys were in the car, drove there.

He said, let's go right away. And I said, turn here, turn here. I tried to look at it last time I was in Santa Ana. Or on the map... You still remember? Yeah, but I would if I saw it if it was still there. But I didn't find... because the streets are actually parallel, not anyway, but I took him there.

We literally, all three of us, two detectives and me, go up to the studio door. They just let you go to the door? They did, and they knocked on it. And I'm thinking at this point, what if he sees me or could he kill me someday, you know? But nobody answered. And they didn't try to break down the door. They didn't do anything. They just took note, you know, and we left.

I'm so sorry. So when Don and Jody were on the phone talking about, oh, you will do the photos, that was him that they were talking to. What was the timeline of that and then when they were arrested? Like a week. And they were trying to sell photos? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Wow. It's like crazy how they all find each other and they operate inside of a community and they're.

probably some of them meet at nudist camps maybe oh i'm so sorry but i was reading his file don gordon and they were saying that when he was let out briefly on parole he had made friends with another child molester in the hospital that's another place yeah and then went to a nudist camp together afterwards after they were both released and competed to see how many children they could molest. Wow. Like, I don't know how he was let out. Did anyone tell you anything or?

When? Because I know that you testified for another little girl's case who was also abused. Well, what happened is, you know, back at the shelter home, I just felt gut punched, like, were Don and Jody going to kill me? Oh, yeah. Did they love me? Or, you know, because, I mean, it was all love, love, love, you know, like. like they love me and I couldn't even picture his face anymore. It just disappeared from my

memory and, you know, and that summer I was in a shelter home a couple times and a foster home and whatever. But years later, when I'm a new mom, a young mom, out of the blue, Orange County contacts me and asks me to testify on behalf of Dawn's newest victim. Now, from 13 to 23, I don't know if I was 23 or 24, but that would be about 10 years. He only got 10 years. So hopefully the laws have changed as far as, I don't know, severe, more severe penalties for child molesters. It turns out he didn't even serve 10 years. He only served like five because probably good behavior, but they're always on good behavior

when your chosen victim isn't with you, right? Yeah, in the jail. He doesn't want to fight men. they asked me to testify on behalf of his newest victim ended up he pled and they said i didn't have to but that was a complete retriguing when you testified at 23 or you didn't she did not testify i did end up going to court you did just because we it was like a psych up for weeks you know and my husband got time off of work and i had a babysitter and i know hardly let anybody babysit my kids ever. We sat in the courtroom and then we went out to dinner and just tried to decompress from it all.

Was he in the courtroom? Yeah. That was your first time seeing him since? Since, yeah. What was that like? It was scary. I didn't ever want him to see me again. That was the big thing. So it took them weeks after they asked me to do it to tell me that he pled. So I thought I was going to testify. And that's really, really. triggering, really activating. Wait, why did it take weeks? They just didn't know. I think what happens is they build their case.

Oh, well, now they have some power. We have a victim that's willing to testify on behalf of your newest victim, right? And then they probably use that as some sort of currency. And then he's like, oh, plea. And then they tell the victim that, or whoever, we don't need you to testify after all. And then they offer nothing. No mental health.

no nice like hey we really appreciated that you know there was no tone like that like no acknowledgement that that could be really triggering so um we went to court anyway just to have a completion process i guess and um i just kind of hid behind my husband and he looked over in our direction but I don't think he saw me or I don't know if they used my name even maybe maybe I knew at the time but but I don't think he would have been expecting me to show up necessarily that time so there's a point where you move and then you run into Jody yeah actually ran into her once in Riverside and I did ask her are you still molesting children and I had my children with me.

Oh, my gosh. I get, when I'm pissed, I'm thinking clear, no. But I'm like, you know, by that time I've been training in martial arts, come on, Jody, I'm an adult now. Now what? You know, that's how I felt. But she's like, oh, Lisa, and then whatever. She just said, oh, Lisa? Yeah.

Like you're just asking her a normal question? Yeah, like silly you. that was a whole bizarre thing but so that goes away and why is she in riverside because she was supposed to be in san anna i don't know people move right but then later we move from riverside to the high desert and we're living in apple valley we just okay we just moved to apple valley we moved to atalanto and then like the day after we move into apple valley i see her at the grocery in the grocery store parking lot did she see you did you say anything this time no so like i'm flipped out i have my toddler in the back seat and i just park more strategically and i wait and um i'm

gonna follow her because like is she my neighbor did i just move in where she's next to me or something you have kids now yeah and so um and i had heard on the radio six months or so before that Don Gordon and some other guy were released into a Senate on a neighborhood, high-risk vendors, neighborhood did a neighborhood watch, and whatever. And I called the radio station and asked them, is it my Don Gordon? My Don Gordon. But they didn't ever respond. So I'm like, whatever, whatever, just let it go, you know, because it would have been about 10 years, because he's only getting like 10 years at a time. This is ridiculous. right okay i know it's exhausting um and so anyway i run into jody and i so she comes back out

whenever i see her in that scene i see that famous saucequatch see right that's how i see she not gonna miss her i mean she's quite the caricature right but um she lost me i don't think she knew i was following her but i don't know the streets i couldn't keep up with her but i had heard about Megan's Law. So I asked my friend to go with me. And at the time, Megan's Law did not give address, only zip code. And you had to go to the sheriffs. So I went there, I said Jody Jones, Jody Gordon, because they got married after they got busted for me. You can't testify against your spouse. That's crazy. I thought they were married before. They got married basically in jail. Yeah. How do they even get to do that?

Anyway, it's crazy. They can do all kinds of things, right? So that they wouldn't have to testify against each other. Okay. So, anyway, the lady at the Megan's Law Sheriff Station said, no, I don't see her. Now, I remember because I did go, at this point, my mom made me go to Jody's and Don's when I was 13 court. And the detectives or whoever said, she doesn't need to go. we don't want to ret traumatize the victim right but because my mom this is the opportunity for her to

whatever so but i remember i heard at jody's sentencing that she will have to register as a offender yeah um but they couldn't find her on the defender registry and i said but she's supposed to but when i was a child i was molested by her and don gordon and she's like well let's look up him and so at that time you had to have the exact name too so donald lee gordon it wouldn't come up don gordon and she's like kind of looked at me and she's like where did you just move from Adalanto and so what had happened is probably was the Santa Ana the radio news clip probably was him and then he got kicked out and they put him in atalanto and adalanto and adalanto there's a lot of kids. Even so, I'm just like mind-blown like he was put to Adalanto, and we just moved from there.

And so this lady's like, okay, well, I'll get his Pearl Officer to contact you. So we meet up, he basically got mad at me that I lived in the high desert and didn't tell them. But you're not the one that... Right. But he's not supposed to... supposed to be within 25 miles of a victim. But they don't even alert you, they just expect you to constantly alert. Well, I don't, I mean, I think it's supposed to be different now, and maybe it was supposed to be different then, but nobody ever told me anything at all ever that I should let them

know where I live or that they're going to tell me when he gets out, like, that's supposed to be part of victim's rights now, but he was kind of a jerk. but at the time i'm like sort of freaked out because i still think about the photographer a bit and don't know you know i see jody and i have little kids and so i asked the parole officer can you please just search him just on the off chance yeah less than one percent okay maybe it's less than 1%, but that Don knows I'm in Atalanto or was in Atalanto or what I look like now or what my kids look like, if he has a picture. Yeah.

You know, and I feel like I must sound crazy when I'm asking him, but I asked him. He can search him anytime, anytime he wants. And he said, okay, I will. But a couple, I don't know, a week, two weeks go by, I don't hear anything. So I ask him, and he said, no, I didn't search him. And I always think, man, he should have just lied to me and said, yeah, I didn't find anything, but I don't recommend lying. But he just like, no, I didn't. And I'm getting more and more upset.

I'm crying. I'm like, but you said, and I just wanted the off chance just in case. I just wanted some relief. And, you know, he's just a jerk. And so I said, well, I want to speak to your supervisor. And then I give the supervisor the story. and he says, you know, you really need therapy. Yeah, I appreciate your shocked reaction.

Yeah, I wanted to say, no, really? But also, how condescending, right? And so, yeah, so then I'm like super triggered, right? whatever so all those negative interactions are happening and then um some angel police officer because i probably got on the phone and i was calling around gives me jody's address okay out of the blue yeah also i figured if santa anna can kick him out and notify the neighborhood why can't atalanto so i tried to get it going in atalanto they kept gaslighting me they kept brushing me off. They were condescending. Never got a neighborhood notification. I circled the streets in

Adalanto looking, but I never saw him or Jody. Because I told them, look, they're together. Why are they both in the high desert? Nope, not supposed to be together because of parole, whatever. I'm like, okay, whatever. Telling you. So anyway, they gave me Jody's address. So at the time, I was going to school to be a therapist, right? I went to school over many years, one class at a time. She was, she lived near the college. So they weren't, she wasn't living where he was in Atalanto, but not only did Jody live by the college, but I would run into, I literally ran into her in the doctor's office. At this time, I didn't go up to her any time. And I had my kids and, you know, and so she was, sometimes I had my kids with me or one of them and she in the doctor's office was with an old

person she was an in-home health care aid and you're not supposed to do that as a registered defender but I also ran into her in Walmart and so anyway the victorville police department said okay we're going to go and check on her and I said she is supposed to be a registered defender and she wasn't just in the kitchen baking cookies she was very involved and she should have had a second strike with that victim that I was to testify against in my 20s and in California at the time I don't know now but would have had a third strike not being a registered defender yeah but they tell me no she didn't realize she was supposed to be a registered offender she didn't realize it yeah or she forgot or yeah I'm like no no

It's so infuriating that they're just living a normal life after. So you were going to school to be a therapist. What was the reason for your decision? Is it to help yourself, help someone else? Yeah, I mean, both. Like, I did start, you know, when I got really bad postpartum depression and all my trauma came out. And I started to go to therapy out of desperation. I became clean and sober.

you know, because I spent my whole childhood drinking, smoking, methamphetamines, and stuff. And at 18, I got clean, but then I started to crave again when all the traumas started to come out. And I'm like, so I started doing 12 steps. And then I went to therapy. I actually got in his abuse recovery group, which was very helpful. And I realized I wanted to be a therapist. But also, like, I knew in my heart, like, I didn't want to do what the most. molesters wanted. It didn't feel right, but I didn't have the words to explain it. I didn't have the

science, you know, like I needed to unindocrinate myself from all of that. And gratefully, it was never a temptation of me to be a molester. I had a natural instinct to protect, you know, but I didn't know how to explain why they were wrong. And so I definitely went for that and to find really the best way to heal, the fastest, bestest way to heal. In the process, though, I'm always kind of like arguing with God because I felt like, go be a therapist, Lisa. I'm like, but no, I can't, you know, like you have the wrong person. I used to have such bad anxiety. I couldn't even look people in the eye. Oh, that was me. I had to have such a heart, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Martial arts helped a lot with that. But actually, it's one of the top trauma treatments. Really? Martial arts.

Yeah. And Judith Herman wrote trauma and recovery, and she talks about it. And I just listened to Gabor Mate talk about it, too, or somebody else. But one reason is, like, you are now in charge of the violent situation, and you're rewiring your nervous system, basically. I guess that's the other reason, too. You're rewiring your nervous system. But also, you gain some confidence. Like, well, maybe I could take care of someone. Some people, maybe. Not everyone, but if that person. But I grew up fighting, getting beaten up on, and my brother would tell me to beat up this person, or there was always, like, a fight. And so in my brain, it's like, always going to come down to a fight. I have to remind myself, I won't necessarily, but it's always there. Like, it's going to come down to a fight. Going back a little bit, I know in your previous interview that you've done before, you were saying how there was a time where you thought that maybe you were. would take care of Jody yourself when you saw her yeah so so martial arts did help me feel like I was probably too confident but you know I was young in my 20s I had all this rage I learned that

all this depression and irritability which nobody named it PTSD at the time but I was always like this is it PTSD yeah but um I you know anger or anger turned inwards is depression. And you got to put the anger and the feelings where they belong. That doesn't mean you confront people or it doesn't mean you beat them up or anything. You can journal it out. You can visualize it, right? Anyway, when I started to feel depressed, I just assumed I guess I'm feeling angry. And so, Jody, Don, whoever, my parents, journal, I journal, journal, journal, I didn't want to. Nobody ever wants to at first. No, none of my clients, not none of them. But a lot of people don't want a journal, but it's like, it's really helpful if you can't do anything else. What happened

with Jody is she did have to register as a Pendergo. Okay. So then now she's on Megan's Law, but I still am running into her. My emotional state was questionable at times, and I would feel, you know, the PTSD depression, rage. And so I thought, you know, let me just take care of it. I actually called my husband once, like, circling Jody's house. Like, I could just take her out because she's going to reaffound. I told the Victorville police, she's going to, she'll do it on her own without Don. And they're just like, whatever. So I imagined that I could kill her a couple different ways, you know, and that I'm no good anyway. I'm screwed up. You know, what do I think I'm doing being a therapist? I'm not a good mom, not a good wife. Like, let me just kill her.

then you guys, you can move on, you know, I'll be in prison and, you know, because I just lose my mind half the time with the situation. But I didn't, you know, thou shalt not kill, right? But I did indulge in some fantasies a few times, killing her, my dad, my mom, or torturing him, or whatever. And I'm not saying that's totally unhealthy. like there can be a healthy element to that you know don't act on it don't follow through necessarily right necessarily you shouldn't kill people okay but um anyway the feelings need to go where they belong and so i'm glad i didn't act on it but um she did reoffend yeah i found out on megan's law so it was while she was in the high desert

I forget the exact name of the charge, but with a teen. So then I tried to call, because I'm pissed a lot, right? And I'm just going to call people. And they didn't call back, of course. But I said, she reoffended. Look at that, you know. But I could check on Megan's Law. And then she disappeared from Megan's Law.

How? Well, first, I'm like, she's from Illinois. Let me see. Yeah. She was in Illinois, and her charges were lower. I call them. and I said, she's high risk, just so you know, oh, the lady was nice. Oh, I really appreciate you letting me know, I'll do it, but I can, but nothing was ever done.

But then she disappears off Megan's Law again. And another perpetrator, another case, Glenn Lowe, that in my teenage years, I also, that was a situation, was on Megan's Law. Glenn, Dawn, and Jody, it gave me a certain sense of some control. Like, I know where they lived. I'm not going to move next to them. Right. But Glenn and Jody got off Megan's law, a loophole. They might have to register.

I don't know, though. Why would I know? Why would anybody tell me anything? But they won't show up on the public registry. Then what good is that, right? Right? The police have some idea. But maybe they're off that, too.

I don't know. But it was, Glenn was full on, told, perpetrator, right? Jody was. You hear people say, I've heard people say, that poor guy, he was only urinating in public and got on Megan's law. No, no. It's really hard to prosecute anybody for any offenses. It's so many perpetrators get off Scott-free. I would be shocked if anybody's on Megan's Law because they were urinated in public. No, that's what people, those are stories people tell. Did you confront your dad about any of this?

I did. Yeah. Back in my 20s, I realized, okay, he didn't protect me. So anyway, I'm just trying to confront anyone I could. So I told him about John, which he, you know, told me don't make a big deal, right? But whatever, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. this happen. And he said, you had quite an extensive sex life. I'm just like standing there. And then he said, and children under the age of three don't remember. And so for me, like we talked

about memory, I have some memories and I'm not so sure, a little, I don't know, it's in that category. I don't know. I can't say, but I'll heal it anyway. I'll do inner child work. I'll have compassion for that part. I'll trust my body, right? But I don't know for sure. So when he said that, it's like, what is he confessing? Anyway, I wouldn't put it past him that he did something to me and my siblings when we were a little. I think you mentioned in an interview that you do know someone or at least someone has told you that they were a victim of your father yeah yeah and and he also um my dad was a high school teacher yeah he did come out as gay and i'm not saying gay people are yes of course um but some else do prefer male or female and so my dad is orientated towards males

So he molested my brother, and another high school teacher at the same high school got busted for molesting. And at the time, I know it seemed silly thinking back now, but unindocrinating myself and seeing my parents for who they really are, it took a long time. I called my dad when this Mr. just left my brain. Anyway, he was a drama teacher at Ramona, whatever, got busted. It was in the newspaper. I said, Dad, Mr. Got busted for molesting a boy, you know, like outrage. My dad said, like, he's mad at the system, right? He said every boy, every teenage boy is going to get masturbated sometime.

Like it's, you know, what? in duo with young men sort of thing. Like, it's totally fine and normal. My dad would say very bizarre things to me throughout my adulthood. And I didn't leave my children alone with him ever. And eventually I did cut off the relationship. But when my dad was in a relationship with a man, Jot, Indonesian guy, and he was really nice. And I was always like, well, I was it with my dad. But anyway, my dad would rent a beach house every once a week, like every summer. And we just had our first child. He's just a little infant, and we went down there and stayed with him.

But that's actually sort of off track, so whatever you want to say. But we did interact. Okay. So anyway, though, when Jot died, he had diabetes, like type 1. My dad was heartbroken. And so my husband and I went into L.A. and cleaned out his apartment. Actually read the eulogy for my dad because he couldn't do it. And it was all gay men and Buddhist monks.

And but what we found in his apartment was file material. Somebody said, don't say Nambla, but Nambla, North American Man Boy Love Association. apparently they're still going strong and very retaliatory. But there was that material in the apartment and also like a daddy son magazine or I don't forget what it's called. But I looked at it and it's all about weird fantasies of, yeah, file material. So do you believe child was also a part of it? I mean, I don't know.

I'd like to think not but he was doing something weird with my dad I don't know if he was file you know they were I'll say it back to the beach house they were super super concerned if we were circumcising

our son or not yeah that's a very strange oh because it'll reduce pleasure or something like according to them and I would like the worst thing we could do and so we weren't sure what should we do what should we not have all these discussions

But I'm like, they tried to look to see, you know, I'm like keeping, I know. So is your dad still alive? No. Okay. And I know that you said that you were very triggered when your mom passed. Did you ever get to confront her or no? I did, actually. So I know this is hard to hear, okay?

But going back to Larry, Larry, that, that, that, that, that I don't remember so well, going in with my mom and Larry, and then the end, the end was I had a vibrator. Larry gave me my mom, whatever. So when I confronted my mom, I was in the backyard. And again, I'm sort of like, I don't care who hears, whatever. I was in it. And I said, Mom, why? Why did you let Larry give me a vibrator at five and she's like you know like the neighbors were out and I I just got louder but that's really it other than um there was always my mom was always kicking me out even as a little girl and give me my baby book get out you're not my daughter anymore like always that sort of thing and as an adult too okay you're no longer my daughter blah blah all these letters and um it was just like exhausting

You know, and I was trying to be a good Christian, and I didn't know what the right thing to do was, and you honor your mother and father, what does that mean? And, but my family needs to come first. It's always a trigger. So I did end up cutting off the relationship with her, finally. I mean, obviously, I'm very naive, I guess, but like there was no, before both of them passed, there was no, I mean, you're their daughter. There was no apology. There was no. Never. The last words my dad said to me was that I was an asshole. But on my mom's deathbed, I did go visit her. And I visited my dad. Ironically, they couldn't speak. No. It's kind of a relief, right? But also, I didn't say anything mean. You know, I didn't. I didn't. Wow. I just I wish them peace but to the idea of me feeling I remember exactly what you said but I've done a lot of healing okay I'm much less triggered by things now but um at the time you know it was all just a constant trigger like I that's why I had to cut them off for my own well-being everyone's well-being just for the sake of it um but being a thing therapist, do you feel like there are certain situations or patients that trigger you and that you would recommend or refer to a different therapist? Or has it almost been like a dual healing process?

Well, it is healing for me to always reiterate self-regulation, inner child work. Like, it's always being, you know, like reminding myself. But I don't really get trick. I mean, I can't say not at all. I definitely can relate to a lot of clients. I couldn't see a sexual predator. It's really never come across. I've never had that opportunity.

Maybe in mental health, like community mental health. I may have seen a defender not known it, but I would not choose or put myself out there as a defender therapist. Yeah. Wow. And you mainly do marriage and family counseling, right? No, it's, I got licensed in California And at the time, you were either a social worker or a marriage family therapist.

They didn't have professional counselor at the time. And I didn't really know about social workers, being therapists, whatever. Really, mostly, I do work with individuals. I do have some couples, and I've worked with families, but mostly I like to work with trauma survivors. And so the benefit is of me being a trauma therapist. First off, I used to think I'm an anomaly as a therapist, like having been a trauma survivor, like maybe I shouldn't tell or I'm going to get in trouble or people will think that's crazy. But most everybody is surviving something, right? And we get into our occupations for a

reason. And so there are a lot of trauma survivors that are therapists. But you want someone that's working on themselves and that has some healing under their belt, right? What the benefit is for me as a therapist is I know that I've been down some dark caverns. and I've found my way out. I am more able to hold people's emotions, like encourage them, be there for them, just validate them. Like, people sometimes they just need to be listened to and validated, not offered a solution right away, just and feel for them.

That's like when people get outraged on my behalf or, you know, like have empathy, that's very healing. You know, you don't want to meet somebody with, like, they tell you something horrific and you're like, okay, yeah, tell me. anymore. It's better. It's okay to say, what? You know? Like, no way. Meet people where they're out in their brain. But I tell people, if you're looking for a therapist, ask them if they're working on themselves. That's a good one. That's, I'm going to write that down. Have you try to reconnect or look up where Raymond is at since then? Well, so Raymond left my mom

when I was 12 because it couldn't deal with her anymore. But we reconnected. in adulthood yeah i have pictures of him with my sons yeah did you like look him up i think my sister kept in touch somehow with him and then i don't remember the initial me getting involved but he lived in one of the times in compton uh-huh that was the whole story but um we went and saw him there and then in long beach he lived and then he came and stayed with us in apple valley for a while and my kids see him as the best grandparent for sure um is he still around no he did pass away too but he was he was in his 80s yeah and so he still called me vanilla and sugar and um my kids call him chocolate grandpa that's so cute oh my gosh you wrote a book when did you start

writing it like felt like from early on i should write a book that i was like why do i feel that way you know maybe it just maybe am i my attention seeking no maybe it's shooting right but yeah journaling the journaling turned to the idea of a book like i'll make this a book someday um but then i got to the point where like you know i think it was for my own healing but then the feeling kept coming back write a book right so i was trying but ADHD and or just i'm not a natural writer i don't know i didn't get it. I know I have a master's degree, but I didn't get a good high school education. I failed out a junior high in high school. I did not earn my diploma, but I'm glad they gave it to me. I found a coach editor that has been helping me write, and I've just been refining it. I've been working

with her like four years, four to five years, but I just had a bunch of journaling stuff, you know, and we had to take a lot out of the book. But you are looking to hope. But you are looking to hopefully release it. Because I know a lot of people say when they read about other survivors' experiences, it's they feel less alone. And maybe they haven't gone through the process of talking to someone about it. Yeah, I did that a lot too. Oh, you did? Yeah, I read a lot of memoirs and stuff. And I did feel validated and, you know, curious. And also in my memoir, it's also a narrative nonfiction where I'm incorporating a therapist voice. oh that's very cool okay so it's like a little Lisa telling her what she needed to know

it's a that's a big part of healing getting in touch with your inner child you know and rescuing them okay so as people are reading it it's like they can also feel and see the steps to healing maybe more clearly is that some of it yeah like I'm I'm gonna have to write another book too because I was trying to write like two books at once But, yeah, it's informational, you know, because it's really important for people to understand what consent is and that you can't consent when your brain isn't fully developed. You could be an Einstein genius child, but you still can't consent because emotional development and all of that is different from IQ. Okay. Wow.

And you're working on banning, hopefully starting to ban nudist resorts for children. Yeah. I think that's a fight worth fighting as well. That's crazy. But our listeners are going to, I know that they're waiting on. Do we have any time frame or just any range? Possibly January. Okay. They're going to set alert. So they're going to be emailing you. Okay. And I will definitely put it on social media on my website and all my other social media. I'm just not sure which publisher yet. And I'm doing some final touches. Oh, my gosh. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the people listening? Another thing that really helped me, thinking about the protective factors, people, whatever good you can inject in a child's life, doesn't have to be about abuse and trauma, but, like, help children dream and believe that they can do what they want to do, whatever that is.

And, like, there's good things to come. And I always held on to hope that there was something good to come and that even when I, the depression and everything hit me, believing the therapist like, you'll get through it, there's good to come, always having something positive to focus on, not toxic positivity, allowing people to express and heal and get into that rage and feel it all and do what you need to do. but know that you'll come out of it and keep a visualization of yourself where you want to be, what that feels like, what that looks like.