Sad Boyz - How NOT To Name A Baby (w/ Zach Kornfeld)

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

Zach and Jarvis take a deep dive on the process of becoming an artist, and contemplate some names you just shouldn't give your baby. Go to https://www.Zocdoc.com/SADBOYZ to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. #sponsored Find Zach at 2ndtry.tv Sad Boyz Nightz 122 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Over 100 Bonus Episodes: Sad Boyz Nightz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ✨⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Find Us Everywhere⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠✨ 00:00:00 It's Okay To Be Bad At Stuff 00:05:34 The Artist's Journey 00:19:54 Sponsored By: ZocDoc! 00:21:11 The Artist's Journey 00:40:03 Moonbeam Ice Cream Crumble Cookie 00:46:51 Art & Money 01:02:12 The Worst Baby Names Ever 01:25:42 Sad Boyz Nightz CREW: Hosted by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jarvis Johnson⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Zach Kornfeld (filling in for ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jordan Adika⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) Produced & Edited by Jacob Skoda Produced by Anastasia Vigo Thumbnail design by @yungmcskrt Outro music by @prod.typhoon & @ysoblank Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Sad Boys, a podcast about feelings and other things also. I'm Jarvis. I'm Jordan. And I'm Dipper. We were literally just about to start the show and Dipper just became the center of attention. He was like I will be front and center here. He's looking right into the camera, too. It's so funny. We have Zach here playing the role as Jordan, of Jordan. I hope you've been practicing your accent. I have been. Whoa, okay. Yeah, I'm actually, it's been really hard for me

to get Jordan's green card revoked. It was a lot of work. Yeah, yeah. But you know, you put in the work, you put in the dedication, you believe you can make things happen. 10,000 hours, you know, Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell, I worked really hard

and I sent his ass back home. Ten thousand hours is a lot of fucking time. Yeah. I don't think you need that much. I don't think you need that much because... No, I was able to get Jordan deported in 2000 hours. Deported. This is so funny. He is such a funny little baby. Dipper was doing a thing before we started recording where he kind of snuggled his body

behind me and said, I'm your back rest. And and he was like you figure it out. I'm comfortable I'm hoping I get it back. Ten thousand hours is four and a half years of full-time work. Yeah, okay Well, maybe it just sounds good on paper It does because we also looked up like how many waking hours are there in like a year and it's way fewer than you would expect And yeah, so Malcolm Gladwell is on some bullshit and I'm calling him out. I don't know. There's no reason that I, I think that's already been debunked by the way, the 10,000 hour. I think most of the pop psychology stuff. It's a nice idea. It's a nice idea. Do a thing a lot. You'll get better at it.

Exactly. It's like that joke. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Oh, that's funny. That is like an old Jewish dad joke. That's fun. So Malcolm Gladwell just wrote a whole book based off that joke? Yeah, that's kind of honestly a lot of like pop psychology, I feel.

Though he seems like a, I don't know anything about that man. Malcolm Gladwell. I was going to say he seems like a nice guy, but then I was like, I don't know that. We don't know. Yeah, like you dunk on it all you want, but I think it's a reminder that people need because everyone's afraid to try new things. That's what I do. Someone needs like, if you're going to be a guy, you got to try.

There's a fundamental fear of failure because we don't like looking bad as a people. True. But you're not good at anything the first day. Even when you play a new video game, you don't understand how Link jumps up and does his little cool sword move. Yeah, it's very true. You have to be bad at things to get better. And so I think any of the stuff we're talking about, whether it's Malcolm Gladwell or any self-help book you want, it's just reminding you it's okay to be bad. In fact, it's a beautiful thing to be bad. That's the place where growth happens. Zach, what are you bad at? Everything, everything I do I'm bad at.

I have a decade of being bad at stuff online. That's, I've made a career out of it. Is there anything that you were bad at that you really wanted to improve and then you did? I'm gonna get good at this. No, weirdly, like most of the things that I've tried I never do again. Well, cause of your job, probably.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, but like- You're like, if I'm doing something a second time, that's not content. Yeah. I've already tried that. But even that act of doing something new, like it pushes you just like one degree

out of your comfort zone. And I think that I think, in a way that I think is really good for you as a person. Yeah. I loved pottery when we did it. And I had a moment of like, oh, I'll be a discount Seth Rogen. I'll smoke less weed and make worse pottery. Right.

And thank you, Dipper. Thank you. He did not like that idea. Should we move on? Maybe we'll just move on. I want to tell the story. Do not speak ill of Seth. Maybe we'll just move on.

Maybe we'll just, maybe I don't need to tell the story. It's fine. You think you're Seth Rogen. Come on. Maybe we'll just move on. Maybe I don't need to tell a story. It's fine. It's like you think you're Seth Riff. Come on. But you make pottery? No. Oh.

I got a pottery wheel when the shutdown happened at the beginning of COVID. The pottery place we worked at was like, hey, come pick up a wheel for a month. Oh, that's cool. So I got the wheel. It was amazing to like really meditative. I was having a lot of anxiety attacks during that time and just like Working with my hands and I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't scroll like my hands were filthy with clay

It was like doing anything with my hands I felt found very therapeutic, but I realized that I never learned how to take stuff off the wheel So cuz like you have to kind of take a wire and you do it and you move it. So I destroyed everything I made. And it became this really beautiful ephemeral thing where I have nothing to show from it. I like that. Yeah. That is very beautiful.

There's that story of the like a hundred clay pots or whatever. I think I got it from John Green somewhere. It was like a pottery teacher or something had one half of his class like focus the entire session. He has never done this before. He's being all time adorable. He wasn't even doing this before we started recording.

Literally. Like half of the class makes like one pot and spends the entire term of the class like perfecting that one pot and the other class makes a hundred pots and the people who made a hundred half of the class makes a hundred pots and the people who made a Hundred pots were better at like made better pots because they did the process over and over and over again How pissed would you be if you got a part of your professor's science experiment?

No, prove that your method was worse I don't even know if it's based on a true story, but it definitely sounds like something that makes sense I mean, I believe it wholeheartedly. It's being a creative person, it's like about your at bats, not about making one thing perfectly. Right. Zach, I wanna learn more about you as a person. If you're gonna be my co-host,

if you're gonna be my Jordan. Yeah. What is your fucking deal? No, things I wanna know about you, okay. This become, you invited me over to interrogate me. It's the roast, yeah. Well, okay, so. I want to know about you. Okay, you invited me over to interrogate. Yeah. Well, okay, so 2019 you tweeted this and what was that about? So you grew up in New York question mark. Yeah suburbs suburbs

When did you move away from home? I Went to college in Boston at Emerson. Yeah, so I was there for four years We had you know, Daniel Perea a guy who went to college in Boston at Emerson. Yeah, so I was there for four years. We had a- Did you know Daniel Perea, a guy who went to my high school? Maybe. I don't even know. I don't even know our age difference. I was born 1990, class of 08. Oh, 92.

Okay. We could have overlapped. Could have overlapped. Okay. What did I do? Yeah, I went to college. I moved back to New York for a month after graduating hung out in Brooklyn my mom saw me getting too comfortable and said I'm buying you a one-way ticket get you said you said your dream was to go to LA prove it bitch Wow bought me a one-way ticket she also they had sold our childhood house so like I did not have a bedroom right and that was very intentional on her part

I was like sleeping in her pullout couch on the office in her home office, and yeah I moved to LA and I've been here ever since Wow okay, so that studied film film. Yeah, yeah Yeah, so this is so I'm a real disappointment to myself I Actually know the feeling I have a master's degree in film. But I love my job. It's great. Crazy to have a master's in an art, right? It's like, well, doesn't matter.

I'm here now. Growing up, what were your interests? Oh, cool. Yeah, all I wanted to do was make movies. That's all I ever... These are like genuine... This is not a part of the show. These are just genuine all I wanted to do was make movies. That's all I ever these are like genuine This is not a part of the show. These are just genuine About you

Imagine if I cut it. Yeah, that would be crazy Well, okay If you really want to go and I can I can give like the mile-high overview and I'll speed through a lot of this Whatever I suffered from childhood depression and like feelings of existentialism at a very young age I suffered from childhood depression and feelings of existentialism at a very young age. Wow. Struggled with the idea of life purpose. Started to find outlets through art. Hated any and all athletics at school.

So I started drawing comic books and then getting into comic books and telling stories. That eventually led me to movies. The gift that changed my life, and I talk about this a lot, was a Lego movie maker kit. It was a stop motion Lego kit. It had a camera that connected to your computer. And this is pre-Lego movie. Oh my God, I mean this is 20 years pre-Lego movie.

But what's crazy is that kind of is the aesthetic a little bit of the Lego movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cool. And it had a rudimentary version of iMovie as like a Lego editing software. So from rudimentary version of iMovie as like a Lego editing software. So from Lego, I taught myself iMovie. From iMovie, I taught myself Final Cut.

From Final Cut, I taught myself Premiere. And I, yeah, I was making movies in my bedroom. There are tons of formative little moments that made me go like, yeah, this is what I wanna do forever. Do you still have those old films? I don't have the Lego ones, unfortunately, which is a huge bummer. It's on some, you know, iMac that is fried in a dumpster. But I have like my old mini DV tapes.

Okay, yeah. And those are really fun. I was gonna say, if you ever find even an old dead computer, you can take the hard drive out and you can recover a lot of the data. And so if you ever need a data recovery guy, I recently Found an old I got I won like a contest in high school and I won a laptop like a shitty shitty laptop, but it was a laptop and It died at some point when I was in college

But I still had the husk of it and I took the hard drive out of it recently and was able to recover a bunch of old, like high school files and assignments and things. It was very interesting just to go back to it. Very into it, what's happening right now. What is he doing? Just licking my whole thigh. Oh my gosh, buddy.

Just bathing me. If you want him to stop, let me know. I don't wanna be mean. This is a extra special content. Is this a Patreon exclusive now? This is a little. Should we put this behind us, you all? Censor this, yeah. You know, I don't want to be mean. Extra special contact. Is this a Patreon exclusive now? It's kind of a little. Should we put this behind us, you all?

Yeah. I know that you obviously are a big media consumer. Big media consumer. And I knew when I met you, you were working in tech. True. But you wanted, you aspired to YouTube. And so did you aspire previously to do any other sort of

you know, art, whether it's filmmaking or? I always considered myself a creative kid before anything technical. Growing up, I would, you'd mentioned on patreon.com, so I was at Bois Nights, where you had written a screenplay as a child. Yeah, yeah, I wrote a full feature length screenplay as a middle schooler.

And if it's ever on earth, it'll be the end of me. This is when I'm like eight or nine. I would write scenarios for like LARPs basically, where we'd go out and play, you go out and play with your friends, except for I wrote the characters and they were all in the Dragon Ball Z universe. And so then we would like act those things out and we had our own little like kind of essentially role playing. When you say you were doing characters within the Dragon Ball Z universe, does that mean

you were playing like your Goku, your Vegeta, your Piccolo or you were an original character? Yeah, there's a character named Trace, like OC. I remember there was a character named Trace that was like related to Trunks in some capacity. And my one of my neighbors. This is original, you're adding onto the canon. And I remember I printed them on construction paper because printer paper, I couldn't steal from school, but construction paper somehow I was able to get that. And so it's very funny just to print these scripts

on thick red and blue paper. And I also used to draw a lot of like, I used to like draw like, Dragon Ball is a big one just cause it was like, I thought the characters looked cool and so I wanted to draw them. And I had a family friend who was really good at drawing. And so I wanted to like get good like him. I just found a binder of my old Dragon Ball Z drawings

which was very exciting. It's specifically the way they draw like the overlapping muscles. Oh yeah. And as a kid you just kind of like think think. I have yes so much of I used to like yeah would love drawing various characters from from shows that I liked and eventually got into flash animation. Like literally you programming it. Adobe flash not the programming part which is funny like yeah so I had a technology class in sixth and seventh grade. This is a hard couch to sit on, just for the record.

Oh yeah. It's to keep you on your toes. Where are you going? The difference is not making it any easier. He's trying to go back to your knee. We're chilling here. In my technology class, we would learn, at the time, Macromedia Flash. Did I have the little turtle?

I don't recall a turtle. There was one with a turtle that I programmed. Well, this wasn't, I didn't do really any, there was some programming, like in terms of like selecting items from a menu or things like that, or when you clicked on a button, making it go to the next scene or something. And there was a guy in my class, Tyler,

who knew the action script, which is a subset of JavaScript, that I would just copy and paste what he told me to do, which is funny, because I had an opportunity there and then to learn how to program, and I just didn't do it. And, but I would get really into designing websites and making little goofy comedic flash animations and stuff. And that was where a lot of my, like what I wanted, I think initially I

wanted to be some sort of animator or something. Eventually I got really into computers from that because I designed like our school website and things like that when I was in middle school. Eventually was like, I don't like any of my main subjects in school, so I'm going to try to learn about, like, computer science is something we didn't have a class for. So I remember going to, like, my IB History of the Americas class with, like, Java programming language documentation printed out and trying to read it

while we were learning about, like, the Zapatistas. And eventually, yeah, me and my friend Russell, we would do little creative projects together. So we learned to screen print and we filmed that high school musical dance video. So I would do all these little creative things here and there. I loved to sing and dance. When I was really young, me and my neighborhood kids would like sing and dance like In sync songs and like learn the choreography and stuff. Did you ever do Darren's dance grooves? That sounds so funny. That's just like you did that just hit you. I haven't heard those words

That sounds so Darren I don't know who Darren's last name, but he was the choreographer behind everything We loved in the 90s. So it was oh bye bye bye dance, the like baby one more time. Yeah. And he sold a tape. And on MTV, he sold a DVD called Darren's Dance Grooves. And it was like teaching you how to do it. And I tried it. And here we go.

Look at him. Like you saw this commercial all the time. And you're like, well, I got to get Darren's Dance Grooves. I'm going to do it like him. Oh my god, this is so crazy. Can we find his last name? It was only 1990. Darren Henson's. I'm gonna do it like him. Oh my God, this is so crazy. Did we find his last name? It was only 1999. Darren Henson.

There's a different guy who choreographed. Look, it's got everybody. Lance Bass, The Chord Online. Well, I tried this. It was the hardest, like it was step one, step. And I'm like, got it. Step two, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. And I'm like, yeah, no, no.

But I would, we share, I think is pa pa. And I was like, yeah, no, no. But what we share, I think, is that before anything else I wanted to do, I wanted to be a rock star, I wanted to be on stage. A performer in some way. I wanted to be, and still to this point, if I had a lick of musical talent, I would leave this all behind. I would abandon it all for the gift of voice

or to be able to tickle them ivories if I could play trumpet, just fucking anything. I did do a lot of singing and stuff when I was young, like in private. I was in online communities and I would Skype call with people and I would sing them Jonas Brothers songs and stuff. That's awesome.

It's like very, it's crazy. Oh no. That's so. It's like very crazy. So you literally made Zach. So why am I that's so cute? It was true. I had so many like God, you're adorable. I know, dude. I had so many like you would sing to them on Skype later, like little concerts like they would request songs and I would like sing them. Okay, give us a taste. I don't even give us your thousand. Come on, Travis I'm slipping into the lava

From going Fuck that was good. That was better than them singing it What's funny is that one out of the boys? Shout out to the bulls to the brothers, one of the people, and it was the people that I was singing to were co-moderators on a Pokemon fan site. Is this a previously, is this a bit of previously unearthed Jarvis Laura?

I actually know this. We've talked about it, but like not altogether. So it's like when I was young, I also had like a podcast, like when I was 14, I found out that I could use Skype to talk to my friends and that for whatever, the way that my sound card was configured, if I hit record, it would record not only the input from the microphone,

but the desktop recording from Skype. And so I was like, oh, so I had Audacity. And this is also in that technology class, I learned how to use Photoshop. And then at home, I learned to use GIMP because it was free. And then eventually I would like pirate. Eventually I pirated Photoshop CS2 and used that for everything. But I would play with Photoshop after school, which is the dorkiest thing. I used to like make posters for events and things like that.

So this is a place where you and I converge that I find really interesting because we're essentially the same age, but I never dreamed of any sort of digital media because it didn't exist. Whereas like when I hear about your past, and even when we first met, you're like, I wanna be a YouTuber. And I'm like, what's that even mean? Well, I don't know that I, I think I was like, I wanna like make this grow.

Cause I had started, when we met, I had started to like grow an audience a little bit. I meant you enjoyed it at the same time. Yeah, and we actually hosted a 2018 internal Patreon conference with creators called Patricon that we were introduced as the sad boys at that event. You and Elle Mills and Keith were the speakers at that event. Yeah, and Elle wiped the floor with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And El wiped the floor with. Oh, else. God. So good.

Talk was so great. So good. But the, where was I going with this? Oh, so you were this. I was pretty, yeah, I know. It's like we had started the podcast at that point. Cause it was just like, oh, let's do a little creative project outside of our like work. But yeah, basically like I went to school

for computer science because I always had this kind of techie side. But I saw it always as like an outlet for creativity. So I would make apps. Like me and my hometown friend Russell, our first winter break after learning your program, we built an Android app and put it on the app store. It was like a unit converter, something super simple.

But it was cool to ship. Because we didn't learn how to make Android apps at school. So it was like we learned to ship something end to end and learn to express, make little products and tools and things like that. And where was I going with this? Oh, but all the while, I had been a fan of Hank and John Green since I was like 14.

So I was like in the early cohort of Vlogbrothers, where when they first started it, it was an experiment that was supposed to end after one year. Oh wow, I didn't know that. And so in January of like 2007 or January 2008, one of those, they like announced that they're actually gonna, after completing their,

cause it originally was a Experiment where they were not to communicate through any other means than youtube videos And so that's why their videos start with good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning hank This episode of sad boys is sponsored by zoc doc. Um, hello Thanks for having me and I need to Find a booking as soon as I can and ideally within my network. Like this week, this century. Maybe you could try Zockdoc. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. Zockdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality and network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. You can filter for doctors that are nearby, take your insurance and are perfectly suited for any medical need you might have and they're highly rated by verified patients. You can also filter for specific preferences, let's say you're looking for a female doctor that is available within the next week. You can do that.

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I don't know if people remember that. There's something that feels racist about that. Because there's like the Aryan Brotherhood. For some reason the word brotherhood ishood. Oh, that's funny. For some reason, the word brotherhood is like. Yeah, it's like, well, because Hank and John. You don't know this about Hank and John? So, in the old.

Huge Aryan hits. YouTube was just different at these times. And so I remember watching these and seeing like adults like having fun and being goofy. And it was like, oh, wow, like adulthood doesn't seem like it's such a bummer. And they also had like the foundation to decrease world suck and they were talking about like global issues

and raising money for charity and it was like stuff that like really like kind of expanded my world view from an early age. We had a night where you and I and Eddie got to hang out with John all night at the Turtles All the Way Down premiere. With Hot Girl. With Hot Girl, yeah, yeah. And that movie all the way down for a girl with hot girl. Yeah. Yeah and

That movie's so great and like we were like, oh, we're it's not our move It's we're we're just guests here. So we're imposing and Tom was like, please stay and we're like, okay Yeah You from like he remembered you from being part of me obviously he knows you as Jarvis now, but he also Just you were part of, obviously he knows you as Jarvis now, but he also, you were part of this community from decades ago. Yeah, I have a photo. I actually have, this is gonna sound problematic. I'm Facebook friends with John Green

because back before we had like social media followings, people would friend on Facebook until they max out their friends. So I am to this day, still Facebook friends with John Green. So funny. Because I tried to friend him as a child and it was like a obviously it was like a one-to-many like it was a broadcasting relationship right but it was just like you didn't have followers. Yeah it wasn't a concept. He sort of invented the follower through a medium that wasn't built for that. Exactly yeah well okay play the intro to this because this was the intro on all the videos.

["The Thank you. Yeah, that was, and then there would be these very vloggy, vloggy style videos, and there's a lot of stuff that came from that. This was like, cause originally they got their first, their first big boost in views because of the old YouTube featured page, where it was hand selected, they just put a video on the front page of YouTube back in the old days. But yeah, so being a fan of like,

I somehow dodged all the problematic YouTubers of old, but that was, I remember I went to the band room, I played clarinet in middle school, and someone was like, oh, let me show you something. Go to YouTube.com, and I typed in U2, like the band,.com, and then there was no YouTube, and they were showing me one of those like jumpscare you idiot They're showing me like one of that that video This is by the way if you want to understand how Jarvis's brain works the fact that he's still fixated on that mistake. Yep

Do you remember those old jump-scare videos or it'd be a car coming around to bend and then it would jump It was like that. They were trying to show me that. But jokes on them, I couldn't navigate to the website. You guys remember when there was a time when you would get an iPhone and it would come with a free YouTube album pre-installed on it? Yes, of course. I do remember that.

I remember that from like- I think that that single-handedly tainted YouTube's legacy. Like, that is how a generation now thinks and knows of them and they're like a badass band But now we're just like those fuckers. Yeah Yeah, so the way I even found out about patreon Yeah, I've been pretty familiar we've been loving it. Oh, yeah, keep the swear. You like it. It's cool Edgy yeah The way that I the way that I even found out about Patreon was I was working at Yelp.

It was my first job out of college as a software engineer. And I was watching like some, it was like Crash Course World History or something, because I'd watched those videos. And they advertised Subbable, which was like a thing that Hank had started that was very similar to Patreon. And then Patreon bought Subbable, and then Hank became an early advisor at Patreon. And that was how I found out about it, was them being promoted at the end of videos. And one of my friends, Jamie, became a UX researcher at Patreon and convinced me to join in 2015.

I ended up joining in 2016. And you were a programmer? Yeah, I was a programmer like software engineer. And then what did Jordan do? Jordan was in... What didn't he do? So he was in like creator acquisition. That's what like I remember him being sales adjacent. Because Patreon doesn't have sales because what are they selling? But that org was doing cold outreach to like Creator Partnerships is like, I think, the more colloquial name of it,

but it was doing like cold outreach to creators. Hey, you should start a Patreon and then like helping them with best practices and stuff and launching a page. My memory of meeting, I mean, I remember meeting both of you guys and you started your Creator journey pretty immediately afterwards, but we were friends even when you were at Patreon and I don't really remember why we became friends other than we just did.

But my memory of Jordan was, oh this guy is great at this job and fucking hates it. Yep, like he was perfect for that job because it was essentially just seducing creators. Exactly, yeah. It was just being charming. And he also had a shinier version of himself where it's like imagine Jordan with three iced coffees right right right and like and a little bit like of more like his

professional dress yeah yeah and and he was he was good at it and no one needed to leave more than him it's so funny because I would it was a small company when we were there. I mean when I left it was pretty big, like 300 people when I left, but when we joined, when Jordan joined it was like probably less than 40 people and when I joined it was like less. Do you think Jordan's listening? No. Do you think he misses us? He does. He doesn't listen to this podcast. But he's not here. He does miss us though. So maybe he's, maybe he's like, hey, how's my buddy Jarvis doing? He actually just liked one of those photos of your thighs.

He's on the thread. He's on that thread. Did you get to miss Green Shot? Yeah. Right. He. That's for Jordan. I would literally, because I worked on it.

I know you're watching. Like that feature where you can put in your RSS feed for a podcast or to get like a podcast feed was a thing that I built mostly by myself. And it wasn't on purpose that that happened. It was because the person that was supposed to be working on it with me, who was a more senior engineer, ended up leaving the company.

And I was like, all right, well, this is gonna be my thing. And then it just became my thing through, and to the point where, like, six years later, I would get DMs and be like, can you believe this code is still in production? I'm like, I cannot. Someone should rewrite that. It's got so many issues, but it was the type of thing

where you work on something and then you're quickly shoveled over to the next thing, because you're constantly having to work on stuff but I would when the company was small and there was no oversight I would sometimes fly to LA to join like the first time that Jordan had a meeting with mythical at the mythical office I just went and went and met with Brian their COO and I know a lot about the product. I can shadow Jordan and I can talk about the technical things.

So I can basically pretend to... But you did this because you were a YouTube fan? I did it because I was just like, I want to be there. He was like, oh, I'm getting dinner with Jake and Amir. And I was like, yeah. One of our best, one of our favorite memories was like us doing a meeting with like Jake and Amir and Taking an uber away to like the airport afterward feeling we got away with something like we're like high-fiving. It's like wow, we really like Trick like like not tricked anyone what we're doing our jobs

But to us we like what we succeeded at was not coming off as like a huge fan That's by the way huge. You know what I mean? Cuz we're just like hard to do riffing bits with everybody and it's like Anyways, like can you believe that we just freaking dude. Can you believe it? Oh my gosh But yeah, and so YouTube was Yeah, it's me and we went to sorry. I'm talking so much about myself, but we went to we like Basically asked really nicely and got one of the co-founders to allow us to go to VidCon

on the company's dime. And so shout out Sam Yam, and just me and the iOS and Android engineers who I love. One of those iOS engineers was my friend Mayuko. We both started YouTube channels right after that VidCon. Her first video got a million views. How many views did your first video get? Like a thousand.

And now that. I watched it. Yeah, you did. We're friends, I had to. I call it like 999 views for real. I have a, to the point where I think I tried to buy ads, like to get views on the video, cause I was so embarrassed. Cause you thought that sucked.

I mean, really, truly in, creative, across the board, you gotta keep your eyes on your own paper, but no matter how many times you say that, it hurts. It stings to see. Well, to the point where I was like, oh, cause I was doing like vlog brother style videos, cause that was like my YouTube point of reference. She was doing like kind of stuff about software engineering.

And so I was like, well, what if I combine these two worlds? So my first 50,000 subscribers was me doing day in the life of a software engineer type stuff. Yeah, and you had some people who were like, when you started shifting your content, they're like, go back to the software engineering. Oh yeah, for a long time. And now people have no idea that that was the thing,

which was crazy to me, because it used to be such a big point of contention where it was all the comments, or things I'd get on social media would be like, will you make a technical thing? Like I made a video where it was like, I ordered a pizza with code and it was kind of a how to program thing

because I wanted to reach a larger audience and not be super inside baseball, but also show cool things you could do with programming. Now you can do this with ChaiGBT, who cares? But yeah, I remember that video. And just like me trying to reach, then I started watching Drew Gooden's videos. This is still 2017, so he's like,

he had just made like a 5,000 subscriber special, but his videos had popped off, so he had like 100,000 subscribers when he put out his 5,000 subscriber special. But that's how I became friends with Drew, because he was, like, super supportive of me, even when I was just, like, a guy who was, like, trying to get off the ground on YouTube. Like, I remember he, like, sent me a congrats

when I hit 100,000 subscribers for the first time. I have a question for both of you. Is there, like, a pie-in-the-sky, like, huge dream that you would still want to achieve? Like, would you want to make a movie? Or, like, huge dream that you would still want to achieve? Like, would you want to make a movie? Or, like, Jarvis, is there anything else that you're like... Like, if I could go Super Saiyan...

Like, I think that would maybe be, like, the biggest issue. Before I die, I need my hair to shoot yellow in a moment of dramatic importance. It happened in a dream once for me, and it was maybe the sickest shit in the world. Yeah. How about you though? No, 100%. You want to make a movie or something or you want to become a superhero? Well, I would like to do both.

I'd prefer to make a movie about me going super saiyan. Oh, documentary. No, it's like, so where I'm at right now in my life is actually a place of Feeling very content with the creative output that I have which is different Because I hadn't felt that way for a long time and and specifically what we've built with second try whether your audience knows about That or not like we've got our own little indie streaming service and it's giving us the ability to kind of take some creative swings and I Yes, I would still like to make a movie and a feature length film,

but that's very much like because the process of it is very attractive and it's just a different type of storytelling. I got to make a short film that was really awesome. It's a bunch of magical realism trying to show what chronic pain feels like. And that like really awesome. It's a bunch of magical realism trying to show what chronic pain feels like. And that really scratched a niche, and it both simultaneously showed me like,

oh, yeah, I can do this. And it also showed me I don't have to do this in a weird way. I came at the end of that going like, well, maybe I can create my little online world in a way where I can be creatively fulfilled. A little bit of sad boys lore. The lowest that I've ever, I don't want to say the lowest I've ever been creatively

because I've been there a couple of times. I've gotten into that borderline depressive state of feeling like I'm wasting my creative potential or I use this phrase a lot, I think incorrectly, but I say that the tail's wagging the dog, meaning that like I'm being led by the wrong things. Like I'm letting the pursuit of views or success or the success of my company dictate what I make creatively as opposed to like that little thing,

that little being drum inside that that propels you creatively and so the lowest I ever was actually inspired Making that short film and it was at a time where I was considering leaving the internet leaving try guys altogether because of where try guys was it it it Felt like the brand was sort of drifting away like it was calcifying into a thing that just I didn't feel a connection to.

And I did a Sad Boys episode that never aired. And it was the most like emotionally raw and vulnerable I've maybe ever been. My memory of it is like you like you, we zoom interviewed. It was during our like everything was remote era. Jordan couldn't come back into the country and it was like we were, it was a very weird time. I was very depressed and I just never put it out cause I was so sad. And Jordan was super depressed. We were all three depressed, but we were finally, you know, it was the premise of the podcast realized that it was too real for you

But we were like I was in my home office lights off the glow of the zoom illuminated I remember that basically just being like yeah, I'm ready to kind of just burn Oh, it exists. We did put it out. It's in the vault for our for our like second tier of patrons. Yeah For that I guess so this is like the $15 tier where you get the the lost episodes I don't uh, well look at we all look like babies it for different reasons Yeah, I don't I maybe I'm my memory of it is not what can you jump to like a middle part of this? I'm very curious Of course. Yeah. Yeah, I have very limited, for people that don't know, it's

limited collagen in my bones and joints. And that often manifests as just a- More like my chronic pain? ...support. Joints on my EDS. It doesn't affect your muscle tissue. It affects the- it makes you too flexible and means that you aren't really supporting your joints, especially if you're not

working out enough. When I was in LA, I was working out. When quarantine started, I fully stopped. I've done fuck all. And as a result, the pain is far more significant as is like a bunch of new symptoms that I never really knew about. What is, do you have coping mechanisms?

Can you, do you wanna refresh the chat and search on what your background is? Your background. I do, but before we talk about myself, I have just questions about you, if that's all right. That's a little personal. What a crazy thing. Oh man, all right, let's pause before Zach says anything.

I, well, Zach, I want to- Just because Jordan's not here doesn't mean we can't hear him. Yeah, it's all right. I want to give you, and we will get to Nara Smith baby names, which I'm excited about. One thing I want to give you your flowers about is it from- Can you give me two flowers? Don't press your luck.

No, when we met, I was always so lucky. You're my favorite Try Guy, Dunn-Til-Keef. And I thought you spoke about creating in such an intelligent way that kind of scratched both my like kind of technical brain and also creative brain, because I think that you, it can tend to feel like you're at those things are at odds, like doing something that you actually want to do versus like what the algorithm

wants. But you more than any other creator talking so much about kind of story circle and like the actual like narrative structure of a video, I thought it was very very informative and I really thought you knew what you were talking about and now I know. No no no, I was so impressed and it definitely like was a thing that I very much kept in active mind at that time on my channel. I was thinking, okay, how would Zach structure this? What would it, I would go back to your page, at some point, I don't know if they were on YouTube

or if I had it, but I would go back to the slides or something. I had- If you have that talk, I've lost it. I don't know. I think I must have gotten the slides from someone, but it could be on an old computer when I stole a Bunch of stuff when I left the company if I if I remember that it was a talk

I would give to the the new employees at BuzzFeed as well not because they paid me to but just because I was like This I can't stand watching bad videos be made Next so it was it was called why we do what we do and I would talk about the the viral Like what are the the elemental blocks that make up a viral video which back then is what we cared about I don't actually think that creators make viral media anymore. I think that's like not actually the goal most of the time But you would go through those viral blocks Then I would show you how we turn those viral blocks into like mini segments And then how those segments make up a three act story,

and what you're trying to do in a three act story, how you're trying to follow a character's journey. Right. And yeah, I thought it was, and it also connected to, controversies aside, I was a big community fan and Dan Harmon fan as an extension of that. Oh, I mean, yeah.

And so it was putting things in terms that I can understand as well and really relate to. And so yeah, I thought that was very like formative for me, especially in my early content journey. But what's Benson Boone and these crumble cookies talking about? I've been staring at it as well and it's hard to really talk about anything,

let alone myself when I know that Benson Boone's Trumple Cookies are out there. Every time I get a TikTok about this, I close the app. What is, I do that sometimes. Like stuff will come like across my feed and I go, no, and I just close the app. Even videos of people making fun of the trend that this is, it makes me mad.

I'm like, I hate that. You hate that? Are you about to leave? I'm about to leave. Don't leave. I quit mad I'm like I said no I'm about to leave I'm like why does it look like Benson booned on my cookie awful that's just the song oh Jesus oh this is um this is his cookie so this is the apparently it's called moonbeam ice cream cause that's the name of a song he does. Let's see. I said that yupp as if I knew, but I just, I was-

The little- You were yes-anding me and I appreciate the support. I was sort of just yesing you. Yeah, it's called the moonbeam ice cream. So it's like a chocolate cookie, but I hear it has lemon in it, which seems weird. Well, there's nothing wrong with lemon. It's not my favorite thing to put into cookies. But with a chocolate cookie?

That sounds good. Are we going to hold Benson accountable for the cookie flavor? Yes. You think this man had anything to do? We're all too smart to believe that Benson had anything to do other than being like his his management was like, Benson, OK, we on tour your album sales are doing really well and oh we have a new backflip quotas met I was gonna say the the the Benson Boone jizz or whatever it looks like it looks like the visualization of a backflip like that's

if you were to jizz while doing a backflip Yeah, I am NOT a fan of crumble. Have you guys had crumble? I I don't have an opinion I think I've maybe had at once I've had a few and it's just too much every time It's too decadent for me. I'm a dairy free boy as well. So it's like, oh if I eat crumble, I'm going to This is the end of my day and I'm that like, I order all my coffee extra sweet. I love, I love a sugary little treat. It's too much. Yeah, you're essentially made of candy. I take one bite and I go, I'm done, I'm good.

I'm curious about the room's opinion on Benson Boone and if I'm even able to muster some defense for him because hating on Benson Boone has become very hot. Oh sure. It's so popular. It's very popular to hate him. Pitchfork eviscerated his newest album and they keep posting about it I think because they know that Benson hates gets traffic.

Hey, we're doing it right now. That's why I have such an issue with Pitchfork. It all started when they gave Camp by Childish Gambino a 1.6 out of 10. That's a crazy score. It is an insane score. That's a crazy score. It is like a performative score and I have had a boon to pick ever since.

I feel like he has like a pick me aura. Yeah. And I don't like how he does some of his like I'm a cutesy little baby like posts that he does sometimes, but whatever. I mean, it seems. Let's not throw stones in a glass house. We're both cutesy little babies right here. We're both cutesy little babies. True. I mean, it seems. Let's not throw stones in a glass house. We're both cutesy little babies right here.

We're both cutesy little babies. True, I mean, it's all marketing. It's all marketing. He also, he had, you know, Beautiful Things, which was an absolute phenomenon. It's a TikTok slash crossover hit, right? And so clearly they were like, you need more. We gotta strike while the iron's hot.

Let's get you on a stadium tour. You can't do a stadium tour unless you have an album. So he, I think, boasted that this album was written in 10 days or something like that. And so I kept seeing the reviews of this album and I will say, so I was like, guys, we're hitting on Benson Boone. We need to be better than that as a people.

Sure. And then I listened to the album. Oh no. It deserves every piece of hate that it gets. It's really bad. It's really bad. But his voice is good, and I think that he is a victim of a machine.

Look, Benson's a victim of capitalism just like the rest of us. Yes. And he gets like a lot of money about it too. So it's like, how much does he really need defending? Oh, when I was talking about the little cutesy baby stuff, it's actually when he will post about like the Taylor Swift fandom or something.

No, that was, what's his face? That was the other guy. Brendan Abernathy. What was it, Jacob, you've posted a couple times, Benson Boone posts, and I go, ugh. I think. But in general, I think he's fine. I just think that he should change his look.

The Curtis Conner has been taken. You know, so I don't know if anyone out there is a Mighty Boosh fan. Yeah. But he reminds me of old Greg. Huge. Can you look up old Greg, please? I'm old Greg.

Bearish, creamy. Is he who now people will know Noel Fielding from Great British Bake Off. Yes, that's old Greg He's a sea monster He does look like fit whoa Also fun fact the director of the mighty boosh who I think directed this Directed Paddington to the greatest movie made the mighty boon. I think I'm correct. I think you're right Far far fair. I think you're right bar far fair

Lord I think my opinion on Benson Boone is that I don't have I don't really have an opinion of him I think he's talented But I don't like a lot of the stuff. He's inspired like this moon beam ice cream meme That's going around and then also like the stuff that like Brendan average it feels very Industry plant and when I compare like people who get industry plant allegations like Billy Eilish or something. I'm like I Just can't see them in the same like right. I think there are people that have gone More viral and gotten more famous than him that are much worse than what he does. So it's, but I.

Also, I just. What's a Benson Boone to do? Right. If you're a Benson Boone and you have a song that explodes, you have, I think, a fundamental responsibility to yourself to milk it for all you can, because you don't know how long this is gonna last.

No crumble intended. You milk it and put it on a cookie don't know how long this is gonna last. No crumble intended. Milk it and put it on a cookie. That is true. It is such a fleeting, rare, unbelievable thing. This meteoric success that he has, you don't know how long it's gonna last. Now also, he's never done this before. He doesn't know how to navigate the music industry, which is full of predatory people who are trying to exploit you for all your worth.

I think this is, he's a kid. This is a hell of a situation. Or is he younger when success knocks on your door? You it's it's a weird thing, right? Because we talk about the desire for creative three. Yeah, he's young. You talk about that desire to be creatively pure. Sure. To let your musicality lead you.

But we all live in the same fucking country man We all live under in the same world and who knows how long this is gonna last Like you sort of just have to it's hits you're right on the dragon. Yeah, it's a tricky balance Because he could also ride this Make a bunch of money and then like reinvent himself later, and have had and made generational wealth. One backflip per show. It's really interesting, because I have two things that I think about here.

It's like it is a privilege to not take the path that makes you generationally wealthy. You know what I mean? To keep that artistic purity is a privilege or a stupid choice. Like it's either a privilege because you're able to do it or you are actually punk rock and you are like very true artists. But for most people art and and commercialism cannot be there. They are usually inextricably combined. I think about this actually a lot in terms of Patreon. A lot of the greatest artists that we have ever had,

their art had to be commercial. They either had a benefactor or a patron or their art is commercially viable. So like Monet's Water Lilies, that's the example I use all the time. You can only, I bet you I did this exact speech in the deleted episode. Someone's gotta let us know.

But Monet's Water Lilies, he had a rich benefactor, or maybe his dad was rich. So he was able to just sit in his backyard and paint water lilies for 30 years. Like you know, that doesn't exist unless money allows you to do that. 100%, which is the privilege of which we speak. The other thing is that I don't know enough about his background

Benny boy Benny boy and so by all means like get the bag I think that oil money the yeah if he comes from like oil he's named after oil benefactor Bonson Boone Boone's actually his middle name. It's Benson Boone Exxon. Yeah Benson Boone British petroleum Boone's actually his middle name, it's Benson Boone Exxon. Yeah, Benson Boone, British Petroleum. I feel like I'm surprised several times a year by I find this new artist that I love, and it turns out their parents are mega wealthy. Well, there was a thing on YouTube ages ago,

which is the YouTube so white thing, where it's like, okay, well, we've created a platform that empowers creators to go live, the YouTube so white thing where it's like, okay, well, we've created a platform that empowers creators to like go live or empowers creators to just like record something and put it out into the world. But when you see that with who has the cameras and the free time on average, right? Like it's like you just end up reinforcing any existing inequalities that already exist in our world. But I was gonna say I can't get as mad at Benson Boone

as I can at Maroon 5 because Maroon 5 was already very successful when moves like Jagger happened and they decided to turn into what they became. Maroon 5, Coldplay, same shit. Maroon 5, Songs About Janeplay same shit maroon 5 songs about Jane isn't it's a Beautiful album it's so good, and then and actually you know that that was that was them reinventing themselves They were a carousel our carousel ours and carousel ours were we both maroon heads. Oh big time, baby Feels like such a betrayal. It's like no no, no, no, you are successful making real music, but it wasn't enough for you.

Like bump that Soap Disco. Soap Disco. That's the Caris Flowers song that I like the most. They do a cover of Pure Imagination from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory that is haunting and beautiful. But like, that's the thing. It's like Caris Flowers was just a different genre.

And then they brought like James Valentine in to the band. Wow, you really know your shit. And the thing was, the band was like really interesting. But then they like kind of are edging more and more pop. And then it kind of boosts like Jagger, I feel, as like the full inflection point. Cause I think that songs about Jane, It Won't Be Soon Before Long, and Hands All Over

all have still elements of the same nucleus. But can we, how have we gotten here? Can we pull up the song Wasted Years Live, Rune 5? So around their second album. How did we get here? We have, because this is from around the time their second album came out. And this song was never put on an album

until their 2013 album that was called Oversaturated or some shit. It was called I'm Very Pink. We've tapped into one of Jarvis' hyperfixations unknowingly. The point I'm making is that, listen to just a couple seconds of the song. ["I'm't Picture Love"]

["Oh Sure Is the Memory"] ["I Can't Picture Love"] Orange Blossoms crushed on concrete. Ooh, what an interesting visual. So what's crazy though, it was written around the time of their second album and it was never recorded until 2013. They actually put the song to record now now

type in wasted years again room 5 and just listen to the version of the song that is Actually made an album. Oh man, and it's ten years later. Yeah this one over overexposed. Yeah No more orange blossoms on concrete. No, no more. I don't know if you if the Josie and the Pussycats live action movie had the same impact on you as it did on me, but it feels like they put that song through the Alan Cumming machine. And it came out the other side. And speaking of the Alan Cumming machine, Benson Boone, Crumble Cookie.

Yep, this all comes back to the same thing. But anyway, it's like, so I can't get too mad at Benson Boone, cause he didn't already, like songs about Jane made them successful and wealthy. They could have continued like experimenting musically, but instead like decided to kind of cash out, which is also valid. It just means I don't connect to the art as much, you know? It's a wild thing psychologically when it's like, oh, you've made it.

You are going to be financially set for the rest of your life, but it's not enough for you. Or life, but it's not enough for you. Or you feel like it's not enough for you and you keep, maybe it's like once they've had that taste of success, they wanna keep going, they wanna stay on top forever. Yeah, and maybe they already got burned because Caris Flowers had that one album and then it flopped and they got cut from their label

and they weren't sure if they were gonna make it in the music industry again. And so maybe when they finally feel like they have a, they have like a, a foothold, they wanna keep that momentum going. It kind of reminds me in a different field, but Robert Pattinson got famous and rich doing Twilight. And then after that was like,

I'm gonna do the weirdest shit in the world because I can. Yeah, to me that is the dream, that's the goal. That is the dream, right? Daniel Radcliffe as well. And Daniel Radcliffe, great example, I feel like, you know, it is harder to do the opposite, to be a real artist doing like,

having standards and not accepting the Twilight roles and then trying to sustain that financially because our world is a harsh capitalistic world that makes you suffer as an artist like truly. And so it's easier to be pop up front and then, you know, figure out your art later on. Something we're potentially taking for granted here, too, is that as you become successful, you get accustomed to one, a certain like way of living, but also a certain way of creating. And I bet you Adam Levine no longer knows how to make a real album. Yeah. Or has the hunger to which I can also hunger is a big part of it.

It's like I don't expect that from him. What's crazy is it like when people just keep keep creating like Bob Dylan just like never stopped making albums and I'm not even a Bob Dylan fan but I'm like, whoa, chill brother. You know what I mean? Like, no offense if you're Bob Dylan fan but a lot of it's shit. Drag him. Sorry about we know you're listening,

but we gotta call you out. Yeah, he's a big Sat Boys fan. Sorry, who were we just talking about before, Bob Dylan? Robert Pattinson. Robert Pattinson, Daniel Radcliffe. Benson Boone. Room five. Oh, oh, just getting accustomed

and not having the hunger for it. Oh, like someone like Kendrick. It's like, the fact that, like, Drake and Kendrick, it's like the fact that like Drake and Kendrick are two like diverging paths, right? Because like, I don't feel that despite making certain like music that it has a more commercial appeal or appearing in features on songs, like it felt like Kendrick was playing the game,

but there is a kind of core to his music that he never deviated from. Whereas Drake, it feels like he is directing himself. It feels like I'm looking at a risk map and Drake is trying to collect every possible region he can. Because it's like, why is he doing reggaeton? You know, like, okay, because he literally is like, okay. Wagwan Delilah. I don't, yeah. He's like, OK, because he literally is like, OK. Wagwan Delilah. I don't.

Yeah. He's like, I don't have this market captured, so I need to capture it. And it's why, like, if we're talking about, like, sales or whatever, nothing Kendrick does can harm him commercially, because what sells was never his rap records, his hip hop records. And so no one cares about if you have 20 co-writers

if you're a pop star, you know what I mean? And so like that's the whole thing is that like Drake is a pop star and Kendrick is a rapper, he's a hip hop artist. And so yeah, it's really interesting. Cause I was someone who liked the early Drake stuff. And then I was just like, at a certain point I'm like, what are we doing?

Like, cause I was just like, at a certain point, I'm like, what are we doing? Like, cause I was like very, you know, I could connect to, especially when you like go back to his old mixtapes, even though he's kind of a nepo baby, still there was some hunger and something there. And now it feels like you can't stop a speeding train where he's just like, I guess now I'm doing a song in Spanish because I need to capture this new,

like is it my passion? My passion has now become making as much money as possible. I guess now I'm doing a song in Spanish because I need to capture this new, like is it my passion? My passion has now become making as much money as possible. I bet it's, I think it's probably a lot more human than we care to admit to be influenced and inspired by the wrong things, especially in art. So Benson Boone, we all were like, backflips are wow, look at that dude do a backflip, that's sick.

And he's like, great, they love it when I do backflips. And we kind kinda do. But then he does it so much that we make fun of him. But even like Adam Levine or Drake, it's you know, they, when you get to a certain level of success, anything short of that starts to feel like a failure. Yeah, and people call it a failure.

Like if Sad Boys started getting less views on your channel, you would start going okay, well I need to change and do the thing that they like so okay And the show would slowly start to morph and you wouldn't be led by your taste or Why you think the show is great in the first place or even that thing that inspired you to do this show it? Slowly starts to morph over time. I know that that's happened to me at certain times And it's a really hard thing you have to be very vigilant to be aware of that and to kind of reorient yourself or to say that that this threshold is not real. It's imagined and it's okay to be over here. Right. It's a really hard thing to do and

so I'm trying to like like find the place in my brain where I am understanding of Adam Levine. No, I need me to be the difference with Adam Levine is just how like ungodly wealthy he is. Yeah. And so it's like everything goes out the door. He's ungodly wealthy and he's 50 years old. Yeah. So who cares? But I think with Benson Boone, I can give him way more slack because everyone's trying to make it and you want to make it some way and then you can figure it out. Like I'm sure that's happened before.

Like I'm not a big Justin Bieber head, which you would expect me to be, but I know that a lot of people really love some of his like R&B records like in the middle of his discography and he always wanted to do like R&B stuff, but because of the way he looked and the way he was marketed when he was like 13 years old,

he was like, okay, I need to do, he has less agency, right? Like, and just as like gonna do whatever his like handlers tell him at a certain point, he can kind of reclaim his artistry and decide like what he wants to do I know he came out with a new album. I heard it's very McGee inspired Yeah, I mean the fact that like the fact that he did decide to make a McGee album is like, oh, that's cool Yeah, cool. Even if you don't like it, like I've only got given it one or two. It's called swag, which is

Funny I've got critiques of the album But I also there's part of it that I respect, which is like, oh, you made it, you heard this guy and were like, this is inspiring me and I wanna make an album like that. Yeah, and I think he worked on the album. McGee? McGee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're saying McGee and I'm saying McGee, I don't know.

I think it's McGee. Cool, because McGee is a director who directed Charlie's Angels Full Throttle. I only know that, I've been to a few McGee shows, actually. He's gonna brag much. I only know that I've been to a few McGee shows actually. He's a little pragmatist. The thing that kind of makes me sympathetic towards the Adam Levines of the world

is there was this band called Bula in the early 2000s that I loved. They were like an indie pop or indie rock band. I know them. I've never said it out loud because it's B-E-U-L-A-H. Yeah. Don't Forget to Breathe. Yes. Greatest song of all time. So such a good band. They broke up because they were like, we're having kids and stuff. We just can't sustain this. Like a hard life to be on the road. We need to decide if we're going to be an indie rock

band traveling around in a van for the rest of our lives, or if we're gonna just get regular day jobs. And so I kind of understand why at some point you're like, I'm an artist, I'm making an amazing music, but we just need to go straight pop because this is unsustainable. And I love pop music. And I think it takes a lot of strength and willpower to decide to give that up.

And you see something's working and you're like, yeah, but it's not sustainable for me. I think another good example is Brendan Urie, where he started at his concerts. Everyone would go crazy when he hit the really high notes. And so that started being all he does. And he wrecked his voice. Backflipping. That's like the equivalent of him doing a Freddie Mercury impression.

It was just like. He has this incredible voice with this insane range. And he just wrecked it because he got caught up in just trying to make the crowd be as loud as possible. What if Benson Boone starts doing front flips? Okay, I'm back on board. Side flips? Side flips, cartwheels.

Something that's been very gratifying to me as a huge indie rock fan of the 2010s is seeing a lot of the bands that we fucked with in college, they now are producing all of the biggest pop albums. So Dan Nigro from As Tall As Lions wrote all the Olivia Rodrigo songs with her and made that album. It's like, we knew, we knew you won. It's very cool.

I was listening to all my old records and I had Vices and Virtues on it. And I was like, oh, these songs, I still love these songs. Yeah, I mean. But it's just like, I wish he had kept doing that. I wish that. Area of his vocals. I wanna live in the world where Ryan Ross never left the band and they got weird.

But Ryan Ross was making music, I just haven't listened to it. You know who's really stayed true to themselves? Nara Smith. Nara Smith never deviated, never changed. What a transition. Always comes correct. That's why we have you here. So as we start descending to our final destination

of the end of the podcast. Put your tray tables up. Tray tables up, tray tables stowed, and wait, how does it go? Seat backs in the upright position, tray tables stowed, and you and your partner Maggie are expecting. Oh, we're very close. We're, baby's coming soon.

Coming soon. We're like a month and change away. Which is like maybe, I don't know, this is gonna be one of your last appearances before the event. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's happening? I'm here because I don't know how to say no.

Right. But really every moment is precious of preparing the nursery and everything. I, and we really do appreciate you being here. Oh, I love it. I'm so happy to being here. I wanted to spend more time talking to you about being a new father, but we're gonna have to jump into Nara Smith baby names. Yeah, we're gonna talk to you about your emotions

through Nara Smith. And that's what great art does. It allows you to kind of project yourself onto it and understand your place in the world. So what is this? Okay, great question. Jacob, Jacob, Jacob. This has been on the big board for three hours

since I first got here. It's been on the big board for weeks. It's been on the big board for weeks, but we were waiting for the perfect person. That's Miles' podcast. We were waiting for the you. Well, yeah, Nara Smith, famous for tried wife aesthetic, making things from scratch with her action figure husband

and her Kindle husband. And she's had a second baby. She has two babies and she's having a third. Oh my God, maybe my baby can hang out with her baby. We can be best friends. You guys can make toothpaste together. And then when she had her second baby, she posted a video in 2024 about baby names that she liked,

but wasn't going to name her kid. Cool. And then now she's got baby number three on the way. And so she's also got a list of baby names. And I've heard that the names are wild. Let's start with 2024. 2024. Yeah, let's go chronologically.

Let's see if any names come back. What if one of my names is on this list? You'll never have to. You can't tell us. It's like toothpaste. Yeah, we're not, okay, here we go. These are some baby names I loved, but I didn't use this time around.

For reference, our kids have pretty unique names. Our daughter's name is Rumble Honey Smith. Our son's name. Stop for last. Rumble Honey Smith. So now do you know why we're showing this to you? You gotta name your kid Rumble Honey. What's crazy is that we were thinking either Rumble or Honey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then they combine them. This is like a peanut butter and chocolate situation. They found the perfect combination. Our son's name is Slim Easy Smith. Yeah, okay. So now do you understand why it's been on the big board for three hours. Slim EZ Smith is the name of, uh, like the pimp in a taxi driver ripoff that works the corner. Yeah, Slim EZ is for sure a white rapper.

Yeah, for sure. Nobody fucks with Slim EZ. This is Slim EZ Smith's block. Slim EZ, the rap game needs me. We just had little Whimsy Lou Smith, so these might be a little out there. Every what? I'm like not expecting it to be as hilarious as the last. Whimsy Lou Smith lives in Whoville.

Unreal. When I heard that she named her kid Whimsysy Lou I was like a little bit upset not just because Don't name your child you wish it was your name But my one of my nicknames is Lou and so I was like no no take it back you People I think have the most nicknames I've ever known You also like You're a little pixie if it can fit in my pocket and your name should probably be whimsy Lou. Yeah You could start going by whimsy Lou

I'm gonna call you whimsy Lou now Wim Lou So she's so the next one she's on baby number four. She's having me before no no these are oh, yeah That's true. I got it wrong. Okay, that's fine Well, I understand how you lost count cuz that's a lot of babies Jacob has to edit it. You guys are on baby number seven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's a number? That's too many babies. I In college made a girl cry at a party because I told her that her parents were irresponsible for having her I think she was baby number eight or nine. I said that we have finite resources on this planet She's like so you think I was a mistake? And I'm like, sort of. Yeah, I think

your parents are selfish at that point. If you have that much love to give adopt. So one of my hottest takes. So I think that you're not wrong in your assessment. I think you're wrong in telling it to her face that she shouldn't exist. I think she's in the right for crying, but that being said my ex was number seven of eight Yeah, and he had he said I was neglected. We're not tilling the farm anymore You don't need a gaggle of 10. He was Mormon. So well cuz they were like we need more men Really good. Sorry. That's gotta be like Siblings and that's not fair to the older sibling or the younger siblings Because you're being raised by a child. I just think if you want kids at that point just adopt

Yeah, after six or seven. London, you're a ninth child Just kidding. I'm the last of four I'm cool with four. And they my parents wanted to stop at three and then you were like oopsie My mom went in for knee surgery and they were like, we can't operate you because of your condition. They were like, we're here to fix the condition. They were like, do you not know?

And then that was fun. But my dad. You were a condition. Knee surgery. Okay, so now we can't cut this. My hot takes out there. I'm gonna call you knee surgery. Knee surgery baby.

Knee surgery baby. Knee surgery whimsy. Condition Lou. Condition Lou. My dad was one of 11. Wow. And his mom was one of 13. Wow.

Irish Catholic. Yeah. That poor woman. Yeah, and so my dad often tells stories about like, he was only close to like two or three of his siblings because you can't as a kid. That's a small town. And the age gap between the youngest and the oldest

is like crazy cuz yeah like exes oldest sibling was almost the same age as my dad well that's crazy I yeah at a certain point I just feel like it's and it's like my mom well that wasn't her fault that's what I'm saying actually it was kind of her. That's what I heard they implanted a bunch of and Like viable embryos, and she was like keep them whoa, and she's different than John and Kate plus eight They just kept well. There's also like I saw really we were talking about I think on a previous episode I don't remember which one, something about family bloggers and stuff like that.

And there is one on TikTok, and I don't remember her name, because I never cared to learn it, who she has 12 kids, or she's 11 right now, and she just got pregnant with her 12th, and she announced it to all of her kids in a TikTok, and you can just see the oldest few, there are teenagers at this point, the oldest few, their faces just drop and they like roll their eyes

and walk away. And it's like, yeah, stop having, at a certain point it's not, it is selfish. It's a high focus at that point. I think it's selfish and it is like a self love that is almost like pernicious at that point. Yeah, she was like holding a one year old and like announcing that she's having another baby

and all the other kids were like, yes, yes, this one. Oh my god. Sorry, that's just so many faces. Like the oldest one in the back, her reaction is so sad, like it's heartbreaking. Also turning your family into content in this way is one of the most evil things on the planet. So your baby's not gonna have their own.

It's visceral because there's so many. I'm not gonna have their own it's visceral I've already I've already parked all the user names. I just invented Benson Boone. I gotta make that money. Yeah Let's hear these names. So these might be a little out there a little bit more controversial But in case someone controversial she goes, okay name one Adolf These are some girls names that I loved we were almost gonna name her tank wait take a tank Tinker tank I think it's tink like Tia like Tinkerbell. Okay, then I love the name bow as in BOW as a second name I also really like fruit names. So I love the name lemon plum and clementine Clementine is a dog but it is cute and it's also a real it's like a name that hold on isn't there a Clementine in Lost? It feels like something Sawyer would say. Eternal Sunshine?

Maybe. I think it's something that Sawyer feels like someone Sawyer would be in a relationship with. Clementine is a cute name I can accept Clementine. Who's that? In the early stages of her pregnancy Cassidy met with Kate and helped her contact her mother again when Kate asked the man who conned Cassidy was Cassidy replied that she was pregnant and she still loved him Cassidy visited Sawyer and showed him the way I just dismissed you too and shut you down Clementine Phillips is the daughter of Cassidy Phillips and James Ford well turns out I'm not eternal Jordan I thought I was gonna be able to take this lot forever.

You've been booted off the island. This is my last shot in my last episode, guys. OK, I'm excited because this is like when they've done eight Transformers movies, and you're like, how can they keep going? Or I guess Fast and Furious would be the better one. The funny thing is, I like these names better than Whimsy. ISS Johnson for International Space Station Johnson.

Yeah, like Lemon is funky. I don't know. Clementine is a normal name. It could be a dog's name but like it's at least the name I've heard humans have. Yeah. We liked Pippin or Pip for short, Dotty or Dot for short. Dotty is a normal name. These are like so much more normal than the ones that she chose. I've heard Pippin. I've heard Pippin. Ivy as well just because that would have almost been my name and then for boys, boys are a little bit trickier to name in my opinion, but we had the name Halo on our list, Dusk also do. Dusk or Dusk?

I just heard Dusk. I think Dusk, I think she edited off, you know the end of that word is like, I think it got clipped. By the way, Dusk is cool. That's a D in D d20 years ago. I would have killed to have my name be halo. Yeah Kill for my name to be dusk Sounds like a bounty hunter Superman that's how I feel mercer and flick so yeah

Flick suck flick is getting bullied at school and he deserves it. Yeah flick is half mouse half Teachers are bullying. Yeah, the principal flick Smith rip whips his underwear up If you ever need inspiration for like your D&D characters watch yes, these are great Yeah, are you? Feels like a slur to me. I'm sorry, it just like sounds slur like. Yeah, Flick is like a... Tink and Flick are like a... That's a duo of rat kings.

Yeah, yeah, and then Dusk is a rogue. Yeah. What does he lose, Smith? Rogue. So this is one more year of Power Creep and Dara Smith baby names. So I'm curious to see Optimus Prime, Jackson, Smith, Ideas de Nombres. I'm glad that all these names are crazy because we

are in sort of dangerous territory here I would say so again I'm having a kid I I we haven't told anyone the name that we've chosen and every the it's because everyone has an opinion on this and what I don't want is we say like oh We're naming our kid Jarvis and they go hmm. I feel like that's how most people were reactive you get Jarvis Well, they do that face And you just like what you really just don't want if you're saying I'm not gonna tell you the name of my kid or really Anything you don't want anyone's opinion yeah And already naming a kid is so hard because if Maggie loves a name

and it's someone I went to high school with, it's just no. It's just like, sorry, I know that person and apparently I'm still, my brain's still at school. But I was with somebody and we're like, we're not telling the name. And they're like, oh, that's such a good idea. Because my sister wanted to name

and basically did the name that we were thinking. And her reason for not liking the name that we were thinking and Her reason for not liking the name Essentially if I was telling him I was naming my kids Zach they're like well then kids are gonna call him Zack attack Okay, relax. That's first of all the dumbest reason I've ever heard someone but also hey lady shut the fuck up Yeah, didn't ask for your opinion about any name Don't I also think that like once a person has the name, you can kind of reclaim. I feel like a lot of times,

you have enough ingredients in a name that you can go by a nickname or some sort of more personally identifiable version of that name. So I revealed before recording to Zach that my sister's son is named champion. Yeah, and When she told me she was gonna name him champion. I was like don't do this Such a bad idea, but she you know she's very strong-willed the moment. I said don't do it. She was like

I'm doing it doing a double Champion world champion and the truth is we call him champy he is champion my mind yeah he is also a massive 19 year old it feels a prudent to the name yeah like when you name someone Bubba it's like well I know. Yeah. My sister has two kids and one due in like three weeks. And before, like years before she had any children, she would tell us, up to the point that she had her first kid,

she said, my kid's name is gonna be Popeye. And we were like, don't do that. And she was like, it's either Popeye or Appleton. And I got her off. Maybe go with Popeye. I got her off of Appleton because I said, that's the name of a Pokemon. And she went, damn it.

And I was like, yeah, you don't like Pokemon. Popeye's a Pokemon too. So you didn't think to maybe mention that he's a Sailor Man? We were, she's like, we can call him Poppy. And I was like, shut up. Just name him Poppy then. Yeah, and so we were in Florida, and we went to this random pier, and they had these newspaper clippings

and a frame on the pier from the 1950s. And there was a list of names on there. And she was like, I'm going to close my eyes, and whatever I point to, that's what my first kid's name will be. Closer I pointed, Popeye. No way. I'm kidding you not.

That was a plant. She looked at it. She scoffed it out beforehand. We were so not and that was a that was a plant. She looked at she's good We were so scared she printed it and she was pregnant the first time we were like she's gonna name this kid Popeye Yeah, and then it was Daniel and we were like that's She was doing she was like a long-term she still talks about it. I'm that's so funny She's annual Popeye it is on the way. She hasn't told us any baby names yet. We're like, all right, this one might be Popeye All right. Now we're in your 2025 that same child is much older bigger head bigger hair and now it's time What are you looking for? Just realizing I brought a sandwich and I think it's roasting in my car

Oh, is that good for the sandwich way too late? Okay, I've been here for been here for we're about to wrap It was like a grilled cheese I'd be good for the same one should be good. Okay. I've been here for days. We're about to wrap. It's like a grilled cheese. That'd be good for the sandwich. Yeah, that'd be good. Okay, here we go. Year 2025, new names just dropped. Baby names I love but won't be using this time around. Lemon. I'm currently six months pregnant with our fourth.

For reference, our kids all have pretty names. I'm so scared she's gonna say one of my names. My oldest daughter, her name's Rumble Honey. Then we have my boy, Suzie. Okay, I'm so scared she's gonna say one of my names my oldest daughter her name is rumble honey then we have my okay I'm not scared I forgot who we were dealing with baby about a year ish ago her name is whimsy Lou so it's getting harder and harder coming up with names but here are some names my top three have already been taken there are normal names saying my boy slim easy if you're the youngest you're the fourth child and they call you Beth. Like it's like now it's like that joke in Hamilton. Oh, you guys gave up.

Yeah. Had me like you didn't. You tried so hard with the first three. Glorp, John John and Mark. Me and the I'm the youngest and the two sisters above me, we all have like pretty unique names and then the oldest is Lauren and she's always like What the hell guys? Yeah Yeah, we need to reinvent her it's like the artist problem where it's like I was too mainstream with the first kid I've got to go avant-garde The first name is moon beam and the second name ice cream. I think that that's just Look she's doing memes Okay, okay. This stream is crazy.

That's a lie. Look, she's doing memes. Nara Smith knows about Benson Boone memes. Oh, I didn't connect it. Wow. I went right over my head. It went right over my head. She got me.

It's funny how she's just like me where she tells a joke and then has to laugh at it herself. I'm just joking. I see. I'm just joking Oh my god, she's so relatable like she would name her kid moonbeam. Yeah By the way moon beans that moonbeam Zappa one of the coolest names that ever was Yeah, that's true. All the Zappa kids have pretty cool names. Hey starting off with some boy names. I love the name Moss, Goody, Sunday, but- This is, this gives me like the um, New York's hottest nightclub is called Moss.

Well this is just like top 10 non-minors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was the second name Gurney? No, I haven't even heard her say it. Well she said she said Moss and Sunday. Some boy names, I love the name Moss, Goody, Sunday. Goody. Goody.

Because Gurney, while a cool name, it makes you think of hospitals. Yeah. Goody, I don't hate it as a nickname, but like would your name be Goodson? Is that even a name? Yeah. Goodson.

Guda. That sounds like a Amish name. Yeah. Goodson. Is this my son, Goodson. Goodson. Goodson. Goodson. Goodson, actually. He's a good son.

Spelled like the actual Sunday. So S-U-N-D-A-E. That is the most normal. She's like, I'm just kidding about ice cream. And then does Sunday. Yeah. Really good. Also, isn't that Danny Gonzalez's dog's name?

Yeah. I'm pretty sure it is. I remember all the pets names. Yeah, that's crazy that you remember that. What's Danny's name? You're like, um, um, is it freaking, uh, ice cream? Ice cream coming out of all your friends' names. Ice cream Gonzalez, that would be a good friend.

I do have a friend named Beef and a friend named Pickle. We talk about it every episode. We talk about it every episode at this point. Is that on the bingo board? No, I gotta put it on there though. But those are like internet handle names. Chosen name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can choose to be a Pickle any day you want, but your parents shouldn't choose you to be Pickle. Master Chief Vegeta Keanu Reeves from The Matrix. Choose but don't doom. Yes. And Silk. I also really like the name dare for a boy Dare like the dare program double dog there kind of kind of cool, I guess Her names for boys are so like sound like superhero like Superheroes that a child would make up dusk if you want to name your kid Darren and Dare's the nickname. Yeah.

And that's cool. So I like to think like, and my sister did think of this with Champion because she gave him a very normal middle name, Sean. Yeah, give him the option. So it's like if he becomes a businessman and wants a fancy businessman's name, he could go by Sean. He would have an awesome law firm. Champion law! His ads would be the best.

His billboards. Have you been in an accident? Call champion today. This is what happened to Zach and now it's happening to me. If you want to see Zach in this position, go to Knight's. This is great for lumbar support. It's really good it's a really I want to train Bowie to do this. Girl names I feel like boy names are a

little easier to come up with but didn't she say the opposite last year? Maybe that's just me. Girl names I love the name twinkle velvet button is so cute to me. These are what I named my webkins. I have two webkins named twinkle toes She's having webkins for twinkle and button that definitely sounds like a ginger snap like Which I don't know that it feels like a more classic me I love the name Apple won't be using because it's been used before love. Oh, so that's the goal Yeah, you can't have and no one else can have this name. This is 4.5 million likes dude She's she knows exactly what to do. Yeah the internet. Yeah, Barry be Rry another name that's been used before like these like not for a girl. Oh, okay. I'm sorry

I didn't bury the boys name. Okay, I mean That's true Barry Benson that lucky does not like it all so it didn't even make it into our list as butter Yes, but not least butter for a girl God that's just yeah, that's jokes on jokes. I love the name Merritt and Shimmer. All of these, I actually kind of dig. Well, and Merritt is a normal girl's name. I know someone named Mary, but it's M-E-R-R-I-T-T.

Yeah. But it's crazy to say, to like couple Merritt and Shimmer together, as if they're. It is funny at some point she's just gonna be like, I also like Beth and and oh and gummy bear Yeah, gummy bear Smith Jennifer and bathtub. I think are both really Um, I really like fruit names so calc what? Calc what watermelon honey do Christmas melon Christmas melon Smith

I'm like this daughter we were honey is cute, I think. Yeah, sure. But doing Rumble Honey, like it's the way she combines some of them. Like some of them could be good on their own, but then she does the combination and she has to say the first one. Rumble Honey is like the answer to like, how did they create immersion

in the first generation of 3D video games? Rumble Honey. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rumble honey And if we were gonna have another girl we're between the names Rachel and chessboard But chessboard might have been taken before so we're also thinking Japanese go board all one word Trisha Paytas did a video Parading this one and the names she came up with were pretty funny She said paper mate PlayStation Johnson

Magic the Gathering Johnson Dragon Ball Johnson basketball pump basketball pump Johnson open crackers open crackers Johnson Open crackers Johnson saltine saltine Johnson Salty actually a beautiful saltine cracker Johnson. This is my son salty salty lost the board game Johnson Um, all right. Well, I found a lot of inspiration that was very helpful. Yeah, we just want to help you a late game Pivot yes Did she say one of your favorite names? For that you're thinking of your child. I'd rather not comment. Yeah Wow You're like twink, but was our twink I'm the first choice. Zach, thank you so much for joining us.

Is there anything that you wanna promote before you go on this journey of fatherhood? I don't know, no. Okay. Well, every time I'm on a show, they're like, hey, fuck, no, I do, I'm the same. I'm the same way. If you tolerated me for this long

And you for some reason wanted more of me. I trust that you are Endeavoring enough to find me give him a try with his guys also Second try is their streaming service where you can find Exclusive series they're always piloting and trying some new up to up to no good And boys be trying and boys be trying trial on that so it's fun if you want to poke free trial and it's spelled Try L which is the name of my first child But if you want to hear more sad boys with Zach you can head on over to patreon.com slash sad boys We can listen to sad boys nights our premium patreon podcast

Zach's there we switch seats. We switch seats. It's like that scene in High School Musical 2, but with seats instead of clothes. I'm kind of sad about my sandwich. I don't know why, but I feel responsible and I'm sorry. I roasted your sandwich and we're sorry. We end every episode of Sad Boys with a particular phrase. You wanna do it in, you wanna harmonize?

We'll do the whole thing together. We'll say, oh yeah. We love you and we're sorry. Boom. That's kind of haunting. We've had two guest hosts prior to you the past week. All of you have had exactly the same coffee order. Yeah, what is?

Exactly. We're all ice matcha oat coffee order Yeah, what exactly? Yeah, well all the cool kids are drinking yeah, we were like oh, I need to change my whole personality yeah drew went almonds Absolutely the wrong choice straight up though. Can we do a milk ranking like for real? Finally finally somebody who wants me can we just be real quick, because almond milk, almond milk is water. It's water, it's milk. Oat milk's got flavor. Soy milk, too much flavor.