Sardonicast - Sardonicast 131: The Hobbit Trilogy

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Support the Show for $2 a month and receive all future episodes early at https://sardonicast.com and https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast. Buy Sardonicast T-Shirts, and other merchandise at https://teespring.com/stores/sardonicast. Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/sardonicast Website: https://sardonicast.com Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/sardonicast Twitter: https://twitter.com/sardonicast Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sardonicast Sardonicast Highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8AhJ0bzQgs5fb9m_ZCRqkw/featured Ralph's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/ralphthemoviemaker Alex's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/IHEOfficial Adam's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/YourMovieSucksDOTorg Alex's Twitter: https://twitter.com/IHE_OFFICIAL Ralph's Twitter: https://twitter.com/ralphsepe Adam's Twitter: https://twitter.com/2gay2lift Adam's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/YMS Ralph's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ralphthemoviemaker Intro music by: https://www.youtube.com/user/anUnkindnessvideo Fan art: https://old.reddit.com/r/Sardonicast/comments/10k869k/drawing_i_made_of_adam_alex_and_ralph_hard_at_work/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Sardonicast/comments/10a8h7g/i_redrew_avengers_endgame_buts_its_sardonicast/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Sardonicast/comments/10f6g84/swim_team_practice_will_be_held_at_tiff/ Timestamps: 0:00 - Intro 5:14 - Hobbit 1 39:37 - Smaug 1:03:40 - Five Armies 1:39:37 questions 2:07:12 recommendation

All right, three, two, one. Fuck this movie. I'm not even going to quote it. I hate this shit. All right. Hello, everybody. Ah, shit. I'll censor that one.

It might be in the first eight seconds, just so we don't get monitored. Oh, no, that was a good intro. I loved that. Yeah, let's, okay. Yeah, fuck that shit. I don't like it. Mm-hmm.

I was like, yeah, I was about to look up in a quote. I was like, I don't respect this. What quote? Damn We're going on an adventure Yeah, fuck it All right Yeah, sat in the town

My sanity went on an adventure And never came back Yeah Who else is there So you watch the extended ones For this? Oh sorry, I'm Ralph I unfortunately watch the extended ones

Yeah, so did I I'm Ralph I watch the extended cuts I feel the same way I'm Alex Ritchie And I didn't actually watch The Extended ones For this viewing

But I've seen the extended versions once or twice before around when they came out. It wouldn't be a new thing for me anyway. Yeah, The Hobbit, guys. Nice. We did it. We did it. We got here. I wonder if I could just add like a few seconds to the beginning of the video before the intro starts of just nothing.

I bet I could. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't count as the first eight seconds of the video if you just shift everything over. You know, it's really funny. they're at a certain point in time when they started doing the the demonetize and like manual text. Best of language. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. This has been going on for a while. But as a gay boy, there were some old gaming channel videos where I used the F slur. Yes. Because I guess I'm allowed to. And it was like right at the beginning of like one of the videos.

And it was, you know, in context, it was like a funny thing. And I was like, how do I get this monetized? How do I get this monetize? And I basically just put like two hours of like a still image and the word test and nothing at the beginning of my video. And then sent it for approval for monetization. And it got confirmed suitable for monetization. And then I used the YouTube editor to cut out the first two hours.

Oh. I don't think you can do that anymore, though. That was a particular. moment in time where yeah no but some of the like little tricks people do to get around this like you know upload in like 10 copies

of the same video and like just go in with whichever one gets the green first like I don't understand really what the rules even are because yeah it used to kind of be the as long as there's no swearing in that first kind of like 30 second range you'd be all right but it seems to have like changed

recently in the past few weeks or yeah I'll have to read on it certain words seem to be like great did is more intense or whatever and we'll flag things and I don't know it's such a nightmare trying to keep track who yeah it's crazy like a lot of people are complaining about the swearing in the first eight seconds but I thought it was 30 seconds before that like that's what is it eight seconds now yeah I think it's like only eight seconds I think it's like not as I don't know if it's more

restricted or less I'm just I know people are complaining yeah and that there's changes in things are new yeah the intro song is five seconds long so you can have like three seconds is quiet and then you say the thing, that would be fine. How about just like three seconds of me staring at the camera? Yeah, that way. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, we got it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. I'll make sure to comply with the guidelines. You know, it's really funny about that, like, the two hours of nothing that I cut out. Like, technically, technically, on their end, it says that it was manually reviewed. So if there was something objectionable in the video,

even in the last 15 minutes of the two hour and 15 minute long video, like technically, I didn't do anything wrong because according to YouTube, they went through the whole video, right? So, when they say manual review, what does that actually mean? Like, genuinely.

It means nothing. Yeah, by who? Yeah, and what are they doing? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't believe it for a second. By what criteria? Right. They skipped through it like me and Oscar movies.

Was it Susan? Did Susan review? it? Manually. I hope so, yeah. Every single video uploaded to YouTube. All right, so if anybody's curious about our takes on the Oscar nominations, we're going to talk about that next episode.

We got a pretty long episode in front of us with three films. Yeah. Trilogy's take up a long. The extended versions, first of all. I did. Well, we all did, Alex said. Oh, we all did? Yeah.

These episodes take like a whole. When we talk about trilogies, it takes like a whole episode. It's very dense. There's a lot of things going on. Yeah. So let's get, let's just jump into it. Yeah, should we do this? Let's jump into it then.

You beautiful bastards. Who wants to describe like the plot synopsis of the first? Well, it's Alex's fault. Yeah, I guess it's my, uh, I'll take the responsibility of forcing you guys to watch what, like, 12 hours of a hobbit movies. But yeah, let's rewind to 2012. Yeah, post the success of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, MGM and a couple of other. the studios wanted more money with what content from the Tolkien universe was left.

And obviously the big, the eye peered over to the innocent little kids book being the Hobbit, the one that started it all, the one that Tolkien wrote as a children's book for his children at the time. So it has a kind of kiddie lighter tone and the Lord of the Rings chilogy we know. For sure. So immediately there's, I don't know, there's a bunch of just conflicting creative ideas and all these different hands in the pot all with different motivations and ideals. And yeah, it all starts with that 2012 Hobbit and unexpected journey. All three of them directed by Peter Jackson as the original trilogy was.

Same writers, even Fran Walsh comes back, Philippa Boynes and Peter Jackson. And a lot of the crew, as far as the special effects, with Weta Workshop and a bunch of that, the people that were responsible for the Lord of the Rings being as good as it is, we're there, but, yeah, I guess we can get into the details of it because it's not as simple as just one small thing. So, yeah, what do we think of an unexpected journey? Because I feel like for me, top level, these Hobbit movies,

There's obviously not enough content for a trilogy. Right. Trying to Lord of the Rings if I, the Hobbit just is a bad creative, like, stem to start all this from. Yeah. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes. But I do think the films get worse as they go along. Like, I think unexpected journey is the strongest. And I don't think it's a total wash.

There is like some good stuff in here each. movie has at least, I don't know, one okay scene or I think they have a stronger density of good scenes starting off and it gets lesser and lesser as these films go on. But yeah, it's been interesting revisiting these movies because around the time they came out, I was quite into them. I was, I like being able to revisit the, because the, you know, the Lord of Rings trilogy is the Holy Grail of like nerd content, as it were. And being able to revisit is, and what's kind of fun in 2012. being a bit younger and less critical of things.

But watching it now, yeah, a lot of notes, a lot of notes on this one. Yeah, same. You're right about it not, you know, not being enough material to make three movies out of. Because it's like with the Lord of the Rings, those books are long. They were actually condensing stuff. That actually worked better because here you can tell. The extended versions were justified. Sure.

Here you can tell what they added. It's like so obvious. They're like, oh, that stuff can be cut out. That stuff that's just like, it's prequel stuff for Lord of the Rings, basically. It's set up for Desolation of Smog, which they have, you know, all this stuff comes back, so are on and whatever. Yeah, it's just like, I don't know. The movie's too fucking long.

I felt like I was watching the extended cut the first time I saw it, you know, in the theater because it's so long. And there's not much of a difference. I did note like the differences between the two cuts. There's not much of a difference between the extended cut and the regular cut of the first one. Yeah, unexpected journey. It's like 15 minutes. Yeah.

It's like a couple extra scenes and stuff. There's more of a difference in like Desolation of Smog and the third one, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It does feel too long. People complain about these being three movies. I don't even have like an issue with that really. Like people said they should have been two.

I think it works fine as three. Three 30-minute movies. Three, like short, Yeah, three like, you know, 90-minute movies or like YouTube videos. Maybe two hours. I think I kind of like the structure of them. They're kind of cool, which we'll get into maybe later on. Like, I like the cliffhanger, like in the second one. But yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like the pacing. And also I heard about some like production trouble behind the scenes. Like, I think the pre-production was very rushed.

Yeah, you're exactly right. I think you can kind of tell watching. Yeah. The big drama was that Del Toro was originally lined up to do two Hobbit movies, part one, part two. They sunk, I think, a year and a half worth of time into pre-production with Guillermo, but then because of all these like acquisitions and mergers and MGM like going bankrupt or something, all of these like moving parts made it so. He wasn't willing to sacrifice the time that it would have taken for this project to eventually get moving under him still being there. So it just eventually worked out with Peter Jackson having to return, even with all the bad blood that sat there with, he was like suing new line or something because of like residuals.

There's all like a crazy complicated situation. And the ultimate kind of result is a trilogy of movies that had, I think it was three months pre-production time. So they were basically doing a lot of stuff and making it up as they were going along as opposed to, I think it was close to four years pre-production. they had for that original Lord of the Rings trilogy and the difference is night and day. And you can see it just on that alone. Exactly.

You could tell, like, especially as the movies go along, they do feel more rushed. I noticed more so in the third one. The effects felt very rushed. And yeah, there's an over-reliance on CGI because they didn't have time to make all those sets and props like they did Lord of the Rings. And yeah. Even just in scenes like indoors, in the same. locations that we've seen in the original like it's supposed to be evoking the same emotions

what's crazy about this is like this is kind of like a nostalgia bait movie before we really got into the decade of nostalgia bait this is like one of the earlier ones and so when I watched it in theaters when I was younger I didn't really have I guess the sense for it or maybe I wasn't as familiar with the Lord of the Rings movies but I could definitely you know now after having seen the original trilogy so many times and now being in this culture of like references and like member berries, I saw so much of it. And even in those scenes where it's like, okay, yeah, Gandalf like, hits his head on the fucking thing in his house or whatever, even in those scenes, they still do this annoying thing where instead of using forced perspective, they have them

in front of a green screen. And it's like, okay, well, the movie 10 years ago did some really cool shit. And it's just people in a room, right? It's not anything complicated that justifies the use of a green screen. This is just rushed and lazy. And it looks worse, noticeably. The lighting is off. You know, like, you shouldn't be able to tell that that's what's happening. And it gives you such a better appreciation for the original trilogy and just all the craftsmanship and coordination and planning that went into it. It's like in Ian McKellen was sad, like, film in those scenes because you know he was in a green screen room he was alone with you know he wasn't on set with those guys when he was like sad about it I'm like yeah it hurts the performance too

even when you get down to that kind of level um because obviously like the original Lord of the Rings trilogy the whole like behind the scenes stuff that's on that were on those DVDs and whatnot like this expansive like a bunch of how tos and what they were doing um they did do a similar thing for these hobbit movies each one of them has like hours and hours worth of surprisingly kind of candid, uh, behind the scene stuff. And yeah, as you're saying, there is all this stuff of like, just these decisions of having to split it up and Peter Jackson clearly like being miserable and just the, the candor of the, the cast as, like, they don't know when they're filming, uh, the, the first movie, like it was only a few

months before that first movie even came out, and unexpected journey that they decided to split it into three movies. So that clearly like all these different strings were going in different directions, pulling this project every which way. And it's like, it's just like a mess overall. Yeah, I think a lot of people talk about like the behind the scenes troubles with this movie. I also watched, in addition of these three movies, I watched the animated one. Is it Ralph Bakshi?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, you did? How did you find it? I've never seen the box. I watched that. Just to compare like the pacing, because I thought, man, these are so slow. I wonder how he told that story. Was it Ralph Voxi or?

Ralph Bokshi did the Lord of the Rings animated one, but the Hobbit one was made by two other people. There were two Hobbit movies made by two other people. But was he like involved in it? Like producer, something like that. I thought it was Ralph Bokshi too, but I think that there was like some weird dispute between them, like a lawsuit.

So I don't think he was. I'll have to look at it. But it was directed by two other people. It's a similar like animation style. You know, the animation. style, yeah, so it's part in me, yeah, like, you know, confusing it or whatever. Yes. But, like, right, like, in this movie, it takes, like, 40 minutes for them to get out of

Bilbo's house and go on the adventure, like, old meeting each other. And that, in the animated one, it literally takes, like, five minutes and they're out of the house. It's, like, crazy, like, night and day, like, oh, my God. It's so... It's so much better. Pathetic, especially when you watch all three of the films in terms of, like, what they're setting up and how these things function because all of that time that they're spending

in the house, what it seems like the implication of what they're doing is, is developing these dwarf characters and giving them more screen time. You can't tell me. I don't know any of them. By the end of the third movie, characterizing them, yeah. Sorry. The only character's name I knew by the end of the third movie was Bofor. D's nuts. Yeah. That's why. No, this was so strange about it, because it is like nine plus hours of content, but like, what characters and stories do you really remember from the trilogy? Because it's like, a fair amount actually kind of happens, but the structure of the story

is like where it really just doesn't make sense or work. Because in The Hobbit, it's kind of just this string of like vignettes of like, oh, the troll thing now, and then there's the Goblin King and the elves and the woods. And there's nothing really that's like, it's not like the adventure is kept cohesive like Lord of the Rings where it has way more of like a distinct kind of structure per each one of those big books. And like each one of them has like a big set piece towards the end. And it like flows a certain way. But it's just doesn't make sense with the Hobbit movies to split it up that way. And then you have these weird issues where having to split that small story up into this trilogy means you get these, yeah, these strange.

uneven movies where it kind of rears its ugly head towards the end of an unexpected journey and there's just a recurring problem in each one of the kind of final acts where they have like a big set piece of some kind whether it be the the trees on the mountain side and the wolves in an unexpected journey or um that scene in smauk where uh the dwarves like reactivate the smelting thing and build this whole gold statue and it's all just like filler basically um yeah it just bogs down the whole story and it just feel and it's so frustrating because it's like as someone who's a fan of like the quaintness of that original hobbit book and seeing like how some of the scenes do translate it well like if we're talking about an unexpected journey the the the golem scene is is pretty much perfect

down to the dialogue and everything yeah yeah that was the standout scene for the movie for me Excellent scene. Yeah. Yeah. It is like a little, a little taste of what it could have been if they could have reeled back this project and kind of, it's in the title. Like it's, it's not the Lord of the Rings. Like the name implies like something broad and big and epic. It's the hobbit.

It's about one little character. And it's like, yeah, the fond of this tiny little guy going to this great big world and everything he learns from going out into it. Yeah, little people big world. Yeah. Sorry. Well, yeah, that's like, those are the best parts of the movie. It's like just following Bilbo because he's a great character. And I love Martin Freeman in the movie.

He was great. It was excellent. Absolutely. Yeah, he worked. Because before I didn't really know him as like anything. I'm like, oh, he's the guy from like the British office or whatever. But here I'm like, no, he's a great actor. He was such a great character in this movie.

I love following him. Those are the best parts of the movie is when it's focused on. his journey you know that unexpected journey and that perspective but they just get lost in this Lord of the Rings prequel crap yeah nearly every time the point of view shifts from Martin Freeman it suffers and that that definitely comes more power in desolation where suddenly you're breaking away to have these scenes of Legolas you're breaking away to have this like necromancer subplot and all this kind of like fluff from the appendices of the Rings, it's like, okay, I guess technically this stuff is like going on in the timeline and in the law, but it does just feel like you're shoving this in to justify the trilogy, to justify the scope and this approach when just something intimate and would have just been so much more suitable for this story and could have like, they'd have to put the greed aside, which I know, like, is just impossible and would never happen with when we're talking about franchises and,

you know, big trilogies of this scope and scale, because I just get kind of hung up on the whole thing of like, man, when these movies are being made, like, Peter Jackson, even after making the Lord of Rings trilogy, wasn't, you couldn't swing his balls around enough and kind of say, like, I need more time for this, or, like, that's how... Yeah, that's weird, but, yeah, I guess just an unfortunate reality and shouldn't be surprising at the same time. That's the thing. Yeah, whereas when you hear about the complicated, like, business,

but you can understand it from that level, but then... We own you. I don't know. Fucking Frank Derbund and AMC and, you know... Yeah, yeah. It doesn't even matter how much you prove yourself. You know, creating the most successful property that the studio has ever seen. Yeah.

They're like, no, you can't have the resources to make it like you did last time. We're trying to save money. Yeah. Yeah. And then we reward them by seeing it in theaters. The pure numbers game of it probably did work out in their favor. Like, just the Battle of Five Armies, if I look at its gross worldwide, 962 million. That's like a scene for that movie alone.

So, like, they're making billions off this franchise. But it's, I don't know, it's, it seems short-sighted, you know, because it's surely it's best for everyone if you have a product. as good as something like the Lord of the Rings where this is going to stay in pop culture for decades and decades. And it's going to kind of, I guess they don't have the patience or the foresight for that.

Here's the sad reality about this, is that it doesn't even matter if the Hobbit stays in the culture because they can sell it alongside the Lord of the Rings in box sets. It'll still continue to sell like hotcakes. There will still be so many people that even if they weren't sold as a box set, they would feel compelled to watch and continue them, because of its association with the other better films. So, yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't even, it's not even short-sighted financially, really. They could be the biggest pieces of shit ever and people will still continue by and watching them, right? Yeah, but there's Laura the Rings fans who are going to love them no matter what. There's a fan base for this movie. They still like it. I think it has positive reviews except the last one. I mean, I think that there was a bit more hype when it was coming out in theaters.

I think it was one of, you remember how, like, everybody pretended to like suicide squad when that came out. Yeah, that was weird. Yeah. Yeah. It's like one of those. I think it's, let's, let's coin this. The first one was like a big deal when it came out.

Yeah. But like the second one, I don't know many people who like saw the second one in theaters. I know like tons. Everyone saw the first one. But then they just kind of dropped off after that. I mean, I think they all made a lot of money theatrically. I watched all them in theaters. Well, they all did well.

I just mean like the conversation around them. They just kind of like I'd have fizzled out. Like culture. Nothing to talk about, really. Yeah, unlike Lord of the Rings, where those, like, got better, arguably, as they went along. Yeah, true. Yeah, it wasn't an 11-Oskered win for Battle of the 500.

Absolutely. Yeah. Right, right. I would like to bring up the 48 frames per second. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, another time, no. That was a big deal.

I think this is, like, the first movie. Yeah, there was definitely the first high frame rate. films that I had seen. That's how I'd watch them in theaters. But I did not watch them this way at home. I don't even know if the U.S.D. Blu-rays do 48 frames per second at home. I don't even know if they...

Could turn the motion spoof thing on. If you... True. You could just do that. It's the same effect. Yeah, I don't get it for this. Well, I mean, what's weird about it is I feel like I was a lot more charitable to the...

these films partially because of that, because as I was watching in 48 frames per second, there would be so many shots where I'm like, okay, that looks weird, but it's probably because I'm not used to the high frame rate. And so I'd make those excuses in my head, which is, it's a normal excuse to make. I'm, you know, relatively charitable sometimes, I think. Maybe people would disagree. But like, now I'm watching them not in 48 frames per second. And I'm like, oh, that shot looks bad because it's a bad effect. That shot looks like, that's just clunky animation. That's just bad lighting.

That's just it not feeling like it's a part of the environment. That has nothing to do with the frame rate. And so, yeah, I was a bit more charitable towards it all three of these films where they came out in theaters because of things like that. And also, I think just, I don't know, like the spectacle and, you know, the sound and the theater and, you know, just seeing something in that type of environment

and having the fan and hype culture surrounding, it can really influence, I guess, both expectations and the experience in some way, you know? Yeah, well, I can factor that into my rating, too, to some extent. Like, yeah, if people are excited about it, it's a good theater experience. Yeah, I would rate a movie higher based on that. Like, when we see movies and festivals, people are excited.

I'm sure that has some impact on their ratings or whatever. Yeah, it depends on the movie. Yeah, but in terms, I don't know. I don't know what was going to say. There's just so much to talk about with these, you know, but I feel like the actual movies themselves, like, the story isn't that interesting. It's more like the behind the scene stuff that's interesting about it. And like, yeah, comparing it like to the extended ones or so on. I feel like you're kind of touching on this earlier, I think, Ralph, where the three movie thing didn't need to kind of pull it down as much as it did if they actually acted on like a bunch of the setups.

they lay down, especially in an unexpected journey. It's mostly a bunch of set-up, they're setting up, like, what the goal for the characters are and where they're going, and, you know, they've got the division between certain characters, and there's clearly, like, some room or growth as to, like, what Adam was saying, where you assume that it's going to be about, like, the bond between the Hobbit and this lowly group of dwarves, which they've clearly put a lot of kind of passion into giving them all,

like unique silhouettes and different like costume designs and all the different facial hair and they've got like the different families where they've got like the hot dwarves which clearly have more lines of dialogue uh because they don't have like beards covering their mouths all the way to like chad dwarfs that yeah you can just look like normal guys right yeah they're just like who have love triangles yeah yeah and then the inside so silly bomber on the other end who's just kind of there for comedy and yeah but if it just could have like followed through or done something because they kind of throw all these like ideas out there and things that kind of are improvements in adapting that that original book the hobbit being like just adding little

mcuffins like the the arkinstone for example that's like a big thing in the movie and it's like it has some kind of dwarven right to rule if you hold this stone. And I don't think it was in the book because like, I think in the book, like, they have such, they've got like no plan really to the point where when they get to smog, they just kind of like just go in one after another, just like getting one piece of gold and just kind of like funneling it out in like the least efficient way. So there was like there were obviously things that needed to be kind of like tweaked and like stakes needed to be raised in a certain way. But then if you have something like the Arkenstone, which is like this key plot element, it's just a certain point in the story where it just like stops being in. important. Like the bard gets a hold of it. He offers it up and for this like conflict between the three sides or whatever. And then like it just goes nowhere and you never see it again. It's never brought up again. And it's like the same for a bunch of like different elements of the story like that.

Like just all the stuff they had to add in the Radagast in the woods with his rabbits pulling stuff around and a big one for me is the kind of villain of the movie because I guess they felt the need to add Yeah Someone to be chasing the main group of characters To keep the tension up So they have this This guy, Azog the Defiler

I don't think was I think he was kind of made for the movies One of these kind of characters Like this character did exist at some point In the timeline But he was supposed to be like killed or whatever But they made him this This lead antagonist

He's got beef with the Thorin and that's supposed to be like the one of the threads over the trilogy is like him like yeah I guess that's the issue is the thread is just bare there's there's nothing to this Azot character I find it so so boring and annoying every time you cut to him and his crew and whatever they're doing in the background and how it's like yeah he's the mustache twirling guy screams every line he kills his own men because he's that scary and yeah it just goes nowhere, has no, like, grunt to it. And he, he just wants to kill the dwarves because,

just because really, because he's a bad guy. Yeah, because he's bad. Because he's a bad at work. He's going to defile those dwarves. Yeah. Yeah. This, uh, so I, I watched this, uh, trilogy with Gael, who is a huge Lord of the Rings nerd. And he had never seen these trilogies before.

And so there was some really, you know, interesting information I was able to get from him. So, you know, he'd be watching a scene like the, the big troll fight scene. And he'd remind me, like, that was just, that was just like, Bilbo telling a tiny bit of a story in like one of the other books, right? And part of what you ruined by showing that whole thing is it kind of takes away the possibility of just him being like a typical unreliable narrator or, him like having exaggerated the story and that's not what happens sort of but now you're just showing it

and so it's like okay like I guess that that's what's happened you know when they see the giant trolls at the campfire that scene yeah that was also a weird scene for me because it seemed to be one of the first really obvious spots for me where the lack of communication between departments was like really showing so there would be a point where the troll would say like, one of them would be like, grab him, and the other one would be like, he's too quick. But when the troll says he's too quick, that's before he tried grabbing Bilbo. It's before Bilbo was running. And so you have that line there where in the context of the script, you would want that line to be after you show him being quick or them trying to grab him.

But he instead says it before any of that takes place. And I'm just like, wow, that's like a, that just seems like not having a cohesive vision between departments and then people, did their jobs technically but nobody communicated with each other about like why why that wouldn't work and everybody was is just expected to finish their jobs and they did it and now it looks weird yeah the giant troll things like it's like the same scene in the in the animated one mm-hmm like we're built actually it is the difference is kind of funny so in the Peter Jackson one they like take his ponies or something right they take the hop they take the dwarves horses

and then Bilbo goes to get them back. In the animated one, Bilbo finds the giant trolls or whatever, and he jacks their shit. He just steals. Yeah, he stumbles. He's like, I'm going to burgle them. And then they catch him.

It's like, so they're like they were trying to make them like a little more likable. I guess that made sense. I actually, I didn't mind that scene so much because that's, to me, that's kind of like what I wanted from a Hobbit movie. It's like a lighthearted,

like Bilbo comes in, they fight some silly troll goblin things. And then like they all the dwarves come in, they fight them, and then Gandalf like releases the sunlight and the freeze. Like those scenes are fun. The scene where like the rock monsters are throwing rocks at them as they're trying to get like across that cliff. Like that was fun. It's like, you know, it's an adventure movie. I want to see them like run into fun characters and do fun things. And the movie just really drags whenever it's not focused on Bilbo and those things happening.

Yeah. Or they do a thing where they consistently, they'll stumble across or be on the right lines and just be doing something, beat for beat, exactly how it needs to be done and should be done. But they just don't know when to stop. They just keep going. They keep elaborating on a thing like the troll scene, for example. Like it's really good and fun and has the silliness of like sneaking around. and then it has to turn into like a big action scene

and just like keep building and building and building and like spectacle. And it's a problem with a lot of the action in these movies where it's kind of like gimmick action that doesn't really feel like it has a purpose in the story a lot of it or just feels there for spectacle's sake. Yeah, because like a big blockbuster has to have it and it's not enough to have like the spiders or the trolls

in and of itself. Like that also has to be. huge scene where they're running down bridges in the goblin temple or whatever and there's like a million things moving at one you know what I mean like when like the actual like good spectacle is like just bilbo having a conversation with a CG goblin you know that that's that's that's the heart of it and what it's what is fun about this story not the big silly spectacle that's that's I know you said you just liked the um the big mountain guys that are like punching each other that's more one kind of of like an example of what I'm talking about where it feels like it just I think that's like one line in in like the book like it's like really like yeah mentioned like it's yeah they weren't like exactly described like that necessarily right this whole movie is indulgent it's just like every little thing is dragged out they're searching under every nook and cranny for possible source material to turn into something just to squeeze that dry like everything from like fucking simerillian and all this other shit. They're like, please, we have to find something we can use to make this story justify the length of three movies. And they did it. But, I mean, it's not justified, but they managed to do something, I guess.

But it's like there's continuous problems that just keep coming up with, that come as a result kind of of that needless spectacle, like in that big stone monster thing. You could like derives kind of a fun sequence out of that, but it's the, it comes at the expense of like any kind of tension for the characters. Like, it's a real thing in this movie in particular where these dwarves, they'd be slammed into the side of mountains while like sitting on the knee of a mountain giant and like everyone's cool and fine. Like, it feels like it's like a kind of weightless, like they're crushed by the Goblin King for like a comedic beat. And it's like, I see what you're trying to, you're trying to lighten the tone to, I guess, be more in line with the lighthearted original story.

But when you also have like these super serious like building up the Lord of the Rings and trying to treat this as if it's the same kind of caliber of importance as that story, it just like really creates an inconsistent tone that's like all over the place. Mm-hmm. It does, it does feel inconsistent. We should probably move on to the next film pretty soon. Uh, I will just say, uh, The music goes a long way. And this is something that is very different from the Lord of the Rings show. Sorry, the Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power,

where they only had Howard Shore for the opening song. In this film, this trilogy, they actually had him compose the entire thing. And it goes a long way, you know, just to have that feeling, as John Favreau would put it, you could put up crayon drawings and still cry. If you're reminded of those other films, you know, you're reminded of the experiences. that you fondly remember from the original trilogy. So, you know, is it manipulative?

In some ways, yes. All art is manipulative to some degree. But yeah, it works. And I'm glad that they did that at least. Not the worst film ever made for the first one. Yeah. And the new songs for like the dwarves and stuff. I like a bunch of the new compositions they did.

Got to shout out that Lindsay Ellis video, though. Oh yeah, that too. She points out just in the in the in the in the production of splitting up the film from two and to three there are like clearly moments

where they've had to like plug in songs from like using compositions from the original trilogy where like it doesn't happy pace makes sense. Yeah. Well like it was like I think the ring ray theme is like plugged in. Yeah.

For like Thorin. We noticed that too. It's kind of stood out to me. Yeah. It's just weird little things like that where it's clear like yep they had of like probably a couple weeks. to do something with the music in this added scene,

let's just get this done. And that's how it feels. Setting up a clearly established context for a musical theme throughout the first trilogy and then using it in a completely different context. And it's like, okay, well, you've, musically, you've set up rules and expectations for how these things are,

that's what a theme is. You play it under like a certain context. And if there's all of a sudden no point to it and you're just playing the song again. Like, what the hell? It's not a theme anymore. It's just a song. Yeah, not the worst movie ever. Ratings. I give this one a high five out of ten completely detached from the other two movies on its own. Just high five is what I gave it. There's some, you know, there's some good things about it. It's not the most boring thing ever, good casting, but kind of fucking disappointing.

in any way comparable to the original trilogy in terms of quality but yeah whatever yeah i agree it's not a bad movie it could have been much better now i give the first one's uh three star three stars out of five stars yeah so that's six out of you ralph with the yeah six out of ten three star rating yeah it's it's okay it could have been um kind of expanded on and yeah the payoffs and set up's actually like go somewhere. I mean something. But yeah, it's just, it's just too much going on. It's just the wrong angle to take. But it doesn't really start kind of falling apart for me until you get into that next movie more so. So I think it's fine. It does the job. There's more of what I liked about that Lord of the Rings trilogy in this one, kind of a bit more genuine heart than

the other two to me. Yeah. But yeah, still not like, yeah, doesn't come close to that original trilogy, so. One year later. The desolation of Smog, how do you say it? Is it Smauk or Smog? Smog? Schmog. I don't know. How you say it? Because I say everything anyway, so then when you go into

Tolkien words, I'm even more hopeless. I think it might be Smauk. Smog. Smog. I think that's it. I don't think it matters. Yeah. Do you remember the controversy? Do any of you remember the controversy over the difference between a dragon and a wyvern? No. What to do with this movie?

What is that? Yeah, because apparently it's not a dragon. Yeah, really? What's the canonical difference? The, whether or not the arms are attached to the wings, or it has wings and another set of arms. So apparently what is shown in this movie, the design is not a dragon, it's a wyvern. And a bunch of people were really mad about it. Oh, really?

Interesting. I never knew that. That was a big controversy. I had no idea. Wow. Okay. I mean, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, they're probably bigger problems with the movie than that one.

Because that's one of the few things I actually like about this movie is that Smogg introduction more so. Just just more so how they kind of like build him up and like, you know, like the song in the first movie where they're singing about how he destroyed that little city. And he's built up well, I think. And the performance is really fun. But getting there, man. Yeah. God. Yeah, the smog scene is great.

It's like the equivalent of the golem scene. Yeah. Oh, in like the first one. Yeah, I can't believe we forgot to mention this song. That's like probably one of my favorite parts of the first one is the Misty Mountain song. Mm-hmm. I thought that was cool song. Yeah.

And it carries through as like the main theme. It's a good idea. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's the standout new composition for sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I also forgot to mention in the first. first film, it was kind of a weird musical in the extended version. There were like lyrical songs for no reason, but anyway. Oh, yeah. And that's one of the fun things about the book is it's extremely musical. Like all the characters just break out into songs. Yeah, like the, these songs that they're singing in Bilbo's house, like they're almost word for word, I think, in the books.

It's an extremely musical. Yeah. I think the Lord of Rings is to a certain degree as well, like full of these little poems and things. So yeah, honestly, if they'd leaned into that more, even if they could have like had even more of a musical tinge, that might have helped with that tone. But it at least made it like stand out. Yeah, because they needed to take a different approach because trying to Lord of the Rings if I didn't make sense. But this one's really like Lord the Rings light.

Like it's much, it's noticeably darker than like the first one, I feel. Each one of these feels so different. because yeah this is when they're like B and C stories like start really dragging down the overall kind of product to me because this is yeah this is when when they get to the the the wood elves or whatever and then like or less you're just saying with the member berries Adam like it sprinkled in their bit an unexpected journey with having the like egregious Elijah Wood like cameo at the beginning for like no reason but yeah it gets more extreme in this movie where yeah Yeah, you have the whole necromancer subplot in where Gandalf goes off.

Like, he just leaves in the original Light Hobbit story. Like, it's not important. Like, you need to get Gandalf out the story because, like, he's, you know, he can solve most problems that characters can do. So just, just, right? Like, once, he's just like, oh, I'm busy. I just got to go do something for a bit. Yeah.

So, and then that's, like, half an hour of this damn movie. It's just, like, whatever he's doing at Dungle Door or whatever the hell he is. It's so unnecessary and annoying. It is so unnecessary. It goes on so long. And the extended cut is just even more of that shit. They had a whole other character, Thorin's dad. Yeah.

And it's like, yeah, you didn't need that. Like, the movies are ready too long. It's just so clear to me that like they just threw it all this stuff. And then producers or editors had to come in like, yeah, this doesn't work. Like, it feels like a movie that's been cut down, you know? It's so kind of jumbled. And when I said the movie's dark, I just mean not just like tonally, just like visually, I feel like it looks like more pale than the last one. And it's just like some VFX shots that were like felt more rushed.

And I just felt there was more polish on that first one. Oh, definitely. And the second one and especially the third one. On that exact line, there are some really strange things in Desolation specifically, whether it be in the barrel action scene. There's like a couple of GoPro shots that are like in there. Oh, yeah. What was that? That's always bothered me.

That's always been... Like, GoPro Generation 1. Yeah, I was like watching this in IMAX. I'm like, really using a GoPro and like a fantasy epic. You know, like, it's not crank high voltage. It's like a fucking... Yeah. It's like a fantasy movie.

Right. Right. It depends on the movie. But yeah, especially with the high frame rate and everything else. And like, you're advertising this is like this theatrical spectacle of crisp and crisp images and, you know, the frame rate as well. Just like, okay, well, that's very out of place. That's very bizarre.

Yeah. It's a weird choice. And unnecessary, too. Oh, yeah. Unnecessary is the big, the big, the big, the scripture of this trilogy. For sure. It feels like amateurish. Like, you think of, like, yeah, directors like Christopher Nolan, like, they care

so much about the visual, like, every shot looking, like, the same, like, like, the film look. And, yeah, it's just like, here, it was. so amateurish how it cut to that like cheap digital camera. And it's like a one second shot. I don't want to like nitpick or whatever, but it is distracting in a movie like this. Yeah, it's enough to kind of like be really noticeable. Mm-hmm.

The fact that it, you could just get rid of it easily makes it worse. That's the fact that it wasn't a longer shot and you could just edit it out and it's, you wouldn't even notice. That makes it kind of worse, doesn't it? I mean, yeah, that describes a lot of the action in these movies, to be honest, to it genuinely changes nothing about the outcome of really anything. It's just like pure spectacle, a lot of it. Maybe it was edited on someone's fucking telephone.

It might make some of the shots look a bit better. There's this one that always bugged me of Smow towards the end of the movie. There's like overhead shot of him kind of like flinging his head up in pain towards the camera. And it looks like previs. Like it's, it doesn't look complete. It's like always bug me. Uh-huh.

And it's so strange though, because, yeah, it, it leans into this rush thing we've been talking about. Because some of those early shots where they're like establishing smagg, like around the gold like, like just going everywhere,

falling around his eye and, you know, the approach with that. And it's all like so, like, well polished and kind of thoughtful. But then it, yeah,

just 15 minutes later, you just have, like some of the worst, lamest action, like you could possibly imagine. Yeah, it's so weird how, yeah,

the quality, like the quality expectation kind of drops as they go along. Yeah, they're rushing to get them done. It makes me wonder why they didn't make them shorter for that reason,

too, because you kind of have more time to, like, polish everything if you have less movie to work on as a whole. But it's,

It's so long. Yeah, and it can't decide. It can't decide if it wants to be about the Hobbit or be a prequel to the Lord of the Rings or be about the dwarves in their epic thing. Or, you know, there's just so many of just things it's trying to do. And it really needs to just like settle on one and commit because it doesn't work otherwise. No, there's so much stuff that you can clearly cut out the stuff Radagast. Yeah, it's pointless.

Cut that out. Yeah. The love triangle. Oh, the elf lady. That needed to be cut out completely. It's like not in the movie, the animated one. And it feels it. Like, it feels shoehorned in there.

And it's not like, I don't, I'm not opposed to like a woman, more women characters in Lord of the Rings. Like, I'm in favor of that. But yeah, to write a love triangle for that character is very not interesting. It's like one of the least interesting routes you can take. That's the thing about the book. Mm-hmm. Is there, yeah, they're like, it was an issue in.

of the Rings as well. They were basically like no women characters for the most part. So they're like kind of torn like yeah, what do we do? I guess we'd make this Toriel character that's we're gonna make a duper in a love triangle. Yeah. It's incredibly lame. Yeah. Legalis. Legulus is so fucking annoying in this movie. Yeah, he's terrible. It feels like a different character. Like everything that I would describe him as in the original trilogy, it's just, not, I don't remember him being just like jealous and overconfident and rude. But that's like all he is in this trilogy. It's so weird. He's just kind of an asshole. He looks different too. Orlando's got his face is a little bit more chubb. Yeah, a little bit older.

Looks a little bit older, right? Even though it's a prequel. Well, you can notice that with Ian McKellen too and so on. Which is unfortunate because the new elf character with the Lee Pace plays, I quite like. I think he's got like a fun screen presence. Yeah. Yeah,

I wanted more of him without like being bogged down with the, yeah, the love triangle. It's because it was real type shit, you know, where it's like, ugh. Yeah. The barrel scene, what do we think of that? Because some people think it's too silly. Kind of unnecessary. I thought it was kind of fun, but yeah. Well, a lot of it's unnecessary.

The movie. Indulgence is unnecessary. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, right. You can say that about everything. Yeah. No, because it's an essential scene. It's like one of the most famous scenes like from like the book is the the barrel escape.

So it had to be in there in some form. And I feel like it, there are little elements of it that are kind of fun. Like I know people hate the like bomber bouncing around in the barrel thing and then him bursting out at the end. I thought that was hilarious when I first saw it. You could do something with the bouncing thing. Maybe him like Yeah bursting out of the end

is a bit too much But you could have done something But once this turns into like Legolas like jumping on them On their heads and like just or walks running around It's like just It's too much It didn't need to be that

That complicated like There's already enough going on Like it's a you can just have fun with it And not indulge for like However long that scene feels But it does feel like a whole Like endurance battle Because there's like a bit where

like a dwarf gets hit by an arrow and you kind of think it's going to mean something but now it's just, I don't know, to slow things down to, so Tariel can see it and the love triangle can advance it's all just like nonsense. And it's like the overall alliance on the CGI really

bothers me with these movies too because yeah, like sometimes it's fun and that barrel scene, it's kind of lighthearted but for the most part things just really don't lack weight. They don't look real. And it really kind of hinders certain scenes. It kind of reminded me other prequels.

In a couple ways, this reminded me of the prequels. You know, it's both like these directors coming back to their franchises and, you know, the kind of fan reactions too, they're kind of divided. Yeah. Yeah, although I would say these are better. Like, I still kind of enjoy this movie. I'd probably rate it the same as the first one, honestly. But yeah, these problems are like so noticeable.

And I felt like if they were just fixed, the movie's, could have been like great like people would have loved them unanimously but yeah that's not what happened shout out to stephen fry movie no stephen fry in that character of alfred they added in yeah is that the master of lake town there his assistant yeah yeah yeah those were those were bad characters they just didn't need to that's again like just cut that in the movie i didn't enjoy that at all yeah well he was just like the brad Dorff character and Lord of the Rings, you know, the assistant in the two towers. It's just like the same character, right?

But just inferior, obviously. At the very end of the last movie, they ended the movie with like, blah, blah, blah, blah, dragon. And then they showed his eye, right? And then it's the title of this movie, Desolation of Smog, like, Dragon, Dragon, drag, drag, drag, and it's two hours and 15 minutes until we even get to the fucking dragon. It's just like a lot of padding and just nothing, right? You want to see the dragon.

And we do. We eventually see the dragon. But we don't even see the, you know, destruction. We don't even see the desolation of Smog. Right? Yeah. So it just, oh my God. The fact that they chose to end the movie there and pisses me off.

Like, the cliffhanger doesn't work for me because I feel like it's at the point of it just being misleading and unethical and just dishonest. I mean, people knew it was going to be like three movies. So it's not like they knew there was going to be a cliffhanger. Yeah, I know, but what you advertise in the title should be in the title of that movie Or sorry, in the content of that movie You got to see smog. You got to see smog for a little bit. The desolation, though, was in the next movie.

Yeah, there was some desolation in this movie. Not quite. Oh, it's because, yeah, they go to that city, don't they? And they comment on, yeah, what they're seeing. Yeah. It is weird, because there's, like, no way to fix it, basically. because if you bring it forwards in the movie then all of a sudden

a third movie no longer makes sense and there's nothing really to do in that third movie I mean it was only the first like fucking 10 minutes of the third movie just end this one with the fucking end of the dragon thing yeah but then you'd even have even less like to like the battle of the the battle of five movies is gonna suck anyway

that one's really you want to just talk about the third one or it feels like we're like it shouldn't talk about that one I mean the third I don't know if taking out the first 10, 15 minutes of the third movie makes it worse. I don't know if I even agree with that, honestly. I think the third movie is just as bad regardless.

I think at least you have like, you've got the, there's kind of an attention to like, you know, the credits are coming up. It's building up with Smog's theme. That's like a hook to get you in, right? That's something. Fucking awful credit song. I see fire. Oh, the adjure.

It was so inappropriate. Yeah, yeah, in that one. No, no, I'm talking about the beginning of that third movie. Like, it's something, at least, you know, like, as a hook to get you in. The dragon attack, like, what, like, the movie sucks in. No one cares, no one knows or cares about the Battle of Five Armies, and it's like, I think it's like three pages in the book. It's like nothing.

Yeah, exactly. It's like the tail end of the animated movie, right? I was wondering how they were going to, like, do that or in the animated one. Just one last thing about small. This one. And then we can move on to the third one, I think. They introduced Luke Evans in this, Bard. Yes.

The guy who kills Smog in the next one, I guess. But yeah, they have to like develop him out, even though he's like, you know, barely a character and the animated one. Give him a family. That's another adoption problem where this character just appears like the same chapter they go there. Like he's not, it's not like a member of the company or one of the dwarves that like takes down the dragon. It's just this like random guy. So how do you like that satisfying in a movie? And I guess they try their best and give them a family or whatever,

but there really ain't much to work off. No, there's really not much going on there. I do want to mention a couple things about this movie before we move on. One, the theatrical versus extended runtime is a bit different. It's now like a 25 minute difference. Yeah, 25 minutes, huge difference. And three hour, six minute extended. uh what seemed to be my general feeling of the action scenes in this movie was just like it felt

like two theme park ridey both the barrel scene and i mean even parts of the smog scene you know he gets on the uh what was that even uh row what he jumps on a wheelbarrow thank you i don't know why that word escaped oh yeah well when they fight him that was a lame that was lame yeah and he's just like in the lava and I guess the wheelbarrow isn't conducting any heat. Yeah, that was kind of stupid. I didn't really enjoy that toward the end. I like this scene with just like Bilbo talking to small. And they're like dancing on his fucking nose.

He could just eat him at any point. It's just like fucking like. It's so weird. Yeah, it like lacked any tension. Yeah. It exemplifies and highlights the clash between this sort of children's story sort of thing, but also trying to make it this epic Lord of the Rings feel. Right?

Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. This big clash between these two genres, basically, where it's like, okay, nobody's dying, I guess. Like, and everything's cartoonish, but you're going to pretend as if there's any sort of similar weight and consequence to things that are happening. Yeah.

It was just, yeah. annoying. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that Ed Sheeran song as well, because it does make that ending worse, because it's like right after, it's like, what have we? done. And then yeah, it should start singing.

Clashing tones. I didn't, I didn't feel this way in the other, like, every single one of the other movies and hobby movies. Those songs are good. They've got like, yeah, I like those songs. They've got like, yeah, really good credit songs that like feel like they're part of the world where this is the first like, oh, God, it feels like you're just playing the radio all of a sudden. It really works you out of the world. It's just another part of the production that felt, it seems like a tie-in. Yeah. Like everything. Like everything just feels. get Ed Shearin to do it. Yeah, really, really bizarre.

Might as well just be an ad. Yeah, he'll get him write a song. The fire and the title. Yeah. He randomly appeared in Game of Thrones as well, didn't he? The hell was... Uh-huh, he ruined Game of Thrones. He just ruined just every fantasy franchise he can.

That's just what he does. Yeah, I just really just have an issue with the pacing of all three of these movies. I will keep saying they're indulgent. I just wish they were shorter. You know, even if there were three movies, If they were 90 minutes, I would have been fine with it. It's just so fucking indulgent. It's like, why am I sitting here for six hours watching this shit?

I mean, really? I mean, like, there's a point where, like, kind of draw the line and I started to get kind of aggravated when a movie's just kind of wasting my time. You know, and they especially watching the extended ones. Like, maybe I'm more harsh because I just watched the extended ones. But yeah, I was like kind of aggravated because it's like such a long ordeal. Aside from a couple extended scenes, I'd say for the most part, just if you want to watch these movies for whatever reason, don't watch the extended ones. It's like the inverse of the Lord of the Rings discussion for me where I'd say, yeah, it enriches everything to watch those extended Lord of the Rings movies if you're into those stories. That is the definitive way to watch them, whereas here I really don't think that's the case.

It's just so obvious, it's so blatant. I'm sure you get like little bits of like dwarf characterization or whatever here in the bit, so not enough. It's clearly not the focus. It doesn't give you what you'd need to care about this like cast of characters. The theatrical cut feels like the extended cut for all three of them. Yeah.

It's just like too much stuff on the line. It's already bloated. Smog. I loved the performance. I think Benedict Cumberbatch did a great job ummmog. And, uh, yeah, it was really, uh,

that was the most interesting part of the movie. And then, uh, that was not most of the movie. So most of the movie was bad. Four out of ten bullshit. Yeah. I like Smog. I like the barrel scene. And then it's pretty much it.

The shit with the spider forest, like, we didn't even talk about that. It's like the very beginning. I forgot about that. I don't know if that was even in my notes. Or the bear guy, Bjorn. Yeah. The bear guy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he, the bear guy's in, yeah, the bear guy's in the animated one, I believe. Yeah, yeah. He's in the story, but he's just like not. Yeah. He's got, he's not necessary in this story, no. Oh, there's another hilariously bad shot. I forgot to mention that being, they introduced Azog wasn't enough I guess

In that first movie they introduced like a sub villain To Azog I think it's like his son Asog's son He's called I think it's called Bulg And there's this like incredibly indulgent Bulg fight scene with Legolas In that water town

It feels like half an hour long But like right as it ends Like the kind of cliffhanger is Bulg riding off on one of those dogs And Legolas chasing after him And it's like the shot shows like a bridge going out of Lake Town

and it looks like PS1 like pre-randed it looks like so fucking bad it's so embarrassing oh yeah it looks horrendous and yeah that synthetic look of I think they get uglier

as they go along like by the time it gets out of five armies it's like yeah might as well be prequel that's what I was thinking yeah that's what I was thinking for Battle of Five armies I'm like I feel like I'm watching like a PlayStation 4 cut scene right now.

It looks so... Straight, it looks like that. You know, the over reliance on the CGI again is so distracting in these. And it's because the pre-production,

they just didn't have time to like make anything. You know, they just had to rush these out. You really notice it in this last one, just how rushed. And it also really drags down the other two because I just started to notice

the problems with the other two, which was that I didn't really care about the characters that much. And when they started, you know, when the stakes were raised, and they started dying, I didn't really care. Mm-hmm.

You know. Yeah. So. Why would you by that point, you know? Mm-hmm. It's boring. Did we give ratings for Smog? I did.

Adam did, yeah. I think I'm pretty much there. I think, yeah, two-star is about what I would give this. I'm there with you guys with the Smog stuff. With him and Bill Bo and that conversation, that saves the movie from being like just fully trash to me. Outside of it, there really isn't that much I like because everything is sandwiched either within that love triangle

or just excess stuff that we've been saying. Yeah, it's not good. I gave the theatrical cut of six. This extended one, I don't know. I wouldn't recommend it. So six out of ten. Right. Let's do the Battle of Five Armies then.

the 2014 trilogy Kappa, all the same crew returning, pick enough exactly where that Ed Sheer and Cliffhanger left us. Yeah, we basically get like a 15-minute short film of Smog, destroying Lake Town, and then it was something else. Oh, is that the exactest, 12 minutes? Even in the extent it was like 12 fucking minutes. And I was like, just put this at the end of the last movie. assholes. Yeah, exactly. It's a scam. Yeah. It's an actual scam. Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, it's probably

the best part of the movie too. It's the, it's better than anything that happens in the actual battle of five armies that is the like title of the film. Yeah, I'm looking at the runtime here and I'm kind of struggling to even really break down like what justifies that runtime. Or like what even really happens in it. Yeah, there's this battle and, the first 12 minutes of Smog, but in between that, it's kind of just a lot of, like, characters, like, just going in circles saying war is coming, war, that it's, it's happening, guys, the Lord of the Rings is on the horizon. Remember, remember. Yeah. Yeah, God. This is, yeah, this is where, like, kind of definitively falls apart for me, where it doesn't even have

that Golem or Smog scene, you know, like, that's as good as, those previous ones. It doesn't have that one thing. You can at least point out and be like that you, yeah, that's some payoff I was looking for in that. Just compare how the third movie of each of these, like,

Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just compare, like, how much, like, happens in the third Lord of the Rings and all the, like, payoffs you get and all these,

like, character arcs finishing up and being rounded off and something so conclusive about it. Whereas, what can you say of that note about, this movie, you know, like even the heart of it, like, I guess it's supposed to be about like that that story of, uh, Bilbo and Thorin going from like, kind of like, I don't know, they're not keen about each other, but then through the adventure, they, they learn to appreciate each other

for what they are and what they bring to the table. But that's mostly kind of concluded by the end of the first movie. Like, they, none of these relationships are really expanded or there's more attention put on like what is gandolph doing and how is how is the lord of the rings like building up in the background over here like it's it's not about the characters when it really needed to be character led because you get moments like towards the end where they try to do the the like kind of fellowship equivalent scene where it's billbo's leaving the dwarves behind and they're all in a line and the sad music's playing but you're like i don't know anything about these yeah right so why would i be invested whereas like you're

You don't feel the same way when you see the fellowship and those other movies and you've been like there with them and you've seen their characters grow and they'd like change in some way where most of these guys, you don't even know their names. And this year's into the law or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. They're just relying on the things you know. Probably one of the worst scenes in the movies that the scene with Gandalf like toward the beginning, like the wrap up of like the Sauron or Sauramon thing. The necromancer, like, revealing that it's sour on. They all show up, like, the Avengers.

Yeah, Cape Blanchette shows up. If you go weaving, and it's like, it's so dumb. It's so dumb, that whole scene. It's like, yeah, she turns all green and starts yelling. They, like, fight ghosts or something. Yeah, not good. Right, right. They're like slashing with the ghost.

It's so silly that sequence. And then, yeah, mostly just, it's mostly dull for, like, an hour before the action starts. Yeah, because, like, once the smog fight is over and that's over, there's, like, no action for a long. time. It's like a lot of just like sitting around talking negotiating like Bard wants gold for his people, but Dorn doesn't want to give it away. And so like a lot of repetitive kind of scenes like that. And yeah. Because they try to kind of do a, you know, like the way the ring kind of corrupts you in that original trilogy and it changes you. They sort of try to do a similar thing with the gold in Erebor.

Yeah. Turning Thorne into being more like a dragon. Yeah. Whereas I maybe you could have done something with that, but also at the same time it feels like really similar to the ring and the ring is already in the story and part of it. So it just feels like familiar territory. And yeah, it just misses.

So yeah, when you get to like that, the adventure being over towards the end and like he's leaving Gandalf, yeah, they're more. concerned and kind of like just teasing. Yeah, Bill, but I know that's the one ring and that's how the trilogy

that you will know and love starts. So it doesn't really matter with our characters like leaving and the emotions that come from that. It's more about, yeah, the silliness and the spectacle. And my God, the spectacle,

like every, every side character gets like a stupid, dumb action scene that, like, takes it too far, whether it be like the, the Legger-Less running up the, like,

falling, crumbling wall. Video games. The bird on, yeah, on his like video game level where he's riding like a, I don't know, like a trollie or something down a hill and smashes into a troll. It's like all this like crazy. Yeah, Leapace like cuts the head off like five orcs like in front of him like at once. Yeah. The extended cuts like really bloody.

I noticed. I don't know if I don't remember the regular cut being that way. Yeah, that's one of the bigger changes. actually is yeah I was like that's kind of interesting yeah because like in that in the first topic movie they they like slice the goblin king um and it like you see it like kind of open up on his body but there's like nothing inside and no blood like comes out whatever yeah yeah because obviously it's like a children's story kind of almost but also epic I don't know yeah it's it's confusing yeah and then there's like other things that were out of

that I know Tolkien fans they hate the they call what they call them wear worms or something weird like that um asog calls them in the subtitles you know there's giant worms

from Dune the Dothraki Dune Oh yeah yeah yeah I was like what was that and they never set that up in like any of the Rings movies or the hopin it just comes out of nowhere

they never set it up and it's never yeah like that that probably would have been quite useful at the time of the Lord of the Rings going down but I guess maybe they lost them Oh yeah

Yeah They all died in the battle Yeah this is like dumb shit like that right Like it doesn't make any sense when you like try to think about it and break it down Billy Connolly shows up as a CG dwarf I was just about to talk about that Very weird that they chose to make a CG On a lot of actors but

He was just like complete Beowulf Like, he was complete Robert Zemeckis in that generation of his films. But acting against, like, live action actors. Yeah. And even Orlando Bloom at certain points was, like, CG, like I noticed. Like, close up to him. And again, when I watched the film in theaters, there was still that sort of, like, excuse for self-doubt

where I could be like, okay, maybe it's the weird frame rate. But it still looked weird in theaters. But now I'm like, okay, this is. definitely just really fucked up looking. Like, this is just, this just looks bad. Oh, now I can't blame the frame rate. Yeah.

I just don't understand the decision to do that. Like, when I get an actor. So that's the thing is, that's what's frustrating because the, the casting is kind of fun. Like, that is a good dwarf like casting for a character. Um,

but then you make him this weird zombie, uh, looking monster, um, which is even weird because they do have like, CG characters in these movies beforehand and they look fine. Like, Gollum looks fantastic in that first one and Smog looks amazing. But, yeah, this dwarf guy doesn't fill the role.

It doesn't do the job. Yeah. So whenever you just try to do people, it's like Uncanny Valley. Yeah. The Gallum's like a orc or whatever, right? Orglin and smogs a dragon or what is it called Adam? Wyvern? yeah so less uncanny valley for those things yeah yeah just like the too long the there's just like

scenes in this where I'm like wow that looks like really rushed like they didn't have time to like film the scene like there's some scene with thorin and one of the other dwarves I don't even know which one but they're at his in his throne room and you know the dwarf is telling him like the gold has corrupted you, the old door and would ever do this? And just like the blocking of the scene, it's just like two closeups on them. And they just keep reusing the same shots. And it's like this terrible green screen behind them. And it's like you needed like more blocking for this scene, like more coverage. It's just like it's so boring. You know, like I felt like the most out of any the three of them I was watching like a TV show here. Yeah. It's so not interesting. And that's a,

that's a good example of a scene. The probably needed to happen. could have had some emotional weight if you actually had characters you knew something about actually talking to each other like you know nothing like they've got no dynamic or established kind of like rapport or anything like that so yeah that conflict doesn't really doesn't really ring true in any major way i feel like they probably could have made it work as well if you just kind of move some of the characters around at a few more scenes of like developing the dwarves and could have been done it could could have been done, but they weren't willing, I guess, with this trilogy stretch.

I guess not. Yeah, Peter Jackson, especially this one, seem kind of, like, worn down. It's like... Yeah, he looks like miserable in the behind-the-scenes stuff. He's like, yeah. Oh, I'm sure. He's skinny. It's kind of like Spider-Man 3 kind of situation where they were just kind of, like, tired by the time they were making that movie.

And you could tell. just watching the film. It just feels rushed. Yeah, the entire movie, this third one, just, I kept saying, get on with it.

And it never did. And it felt like the movie was as exhausted as I was. You know, it screams that through its production where they're just like, they're continuing to do this. Nobody seems like they want to be doing it.

And it's just, there and everybody has to suffer through this bizarre, tortured technique. It's like, through so much of the dialogue and like the way they try and build up this war, it just feels like this constant like posturing, like trying to remind the audience that like yet, no, this is important, but like what is happening right now is like Lord of the Rings, isn't it, guys? Wink, wink, nudge, like it has to be like, you have to have the big crazy worms and the CG bats of Legulus being carried around. but these new troll design, like, it's just, it's too much.

It's like trying to overcompensate for, like, what it clearly knows is lacking in that story department, which is like... Sure. They know, they're going to know, like, the people working, like, you really think Pierre Jackson didn't know? Like... I'm sure he know. It is, like, workman-like, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And tired. Mm-hmm. He was... I don't blame him for people. exhausted making these but yeah it just comes across as like something that could have been really great if it was just shorter and tighter and maybe maybe have other directors do the other ones or something I don't know I don't know how you could have fixed it but well yeah I think the answer was Guillaume they had the their golden ticket um and supposedly

his plan with this um two part thing was that the first part was going to be more like condensing the more intimate side of the Hobbit story into with like combined with Guillermo's kind of style and really indulge in that side of it and then bring the bounds in a bit more for the part two and make it fit into the Lord of Rings in a certain way an ambitious idea in and it itself but I mean I would prefer and would have preferred to have seen that and have that exist over this this unfortunate trilogy of like a lot of the ideas. being okay and some of the stuff being good. And I found it interesting.

Gailne, he's so credited, I think, in each three, each of three movies. Yeah, something. Or is it,

I think he might even get a writing credit. Probably, I guess, I guess because of how, just how much pre-production, although I think, I'm pretty sure they scrapped the majority of what he did.

So I don't know if that's just politeness or what, but, um, because he did sacrifice, like, nearly two years to a project. He never actually got seen a light day on.

so it might just be something like that. I just hate this movie. I hated it with more and more with every single minute that passed because I didn't feel like I was seeing anything new with every minute.

I was just like, okay, more mindless action, video game nonsense. You've had so long to build up the stakes and make me care about anything happening. That didn't happen. You've had so long to build up the case.

characters and make it so that when a character is experiencing a piece of action, it feels motivated, that I care about what they're doing, that I remember their fucking name. That didn't happen, except Bofor. You know, and just, yeah, it's absolute soulless garbage where you can tell they threw money at it. There's some money in there. Wow. That's it. That doesn't make a movie.

I hate that. I hate it when that's the only thing you can tell about a movie is that they spent money on it. Zero passion. what are you saying i mostly just yeah i mostly just disliked the you know putting the special effects in front of the story in the characters because like you're saying alex it doesn't you know it's trying to overcompensate but really like those lord of the rings movies that was a great story it was epic and these are just simple stories they're not supposed to be anything like the

lord of the rings and if you're trying to like compare yourself to that it kind of feels like kevin your appetizer after your meal. I've heard that comparison with these movies before and I'm like, yeah, it's not nearly as epic as Lord of the Rings and it shouldn't even try to be. It should just be the Hobbit and it isn't. It's like your appetizer

was poison. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like, Billbo, he gets knocked out for the Battle of Five Armies like in the movie. He's such a not part of it. Yeah. Especially the last two.

He's just so on the side. And it's like, yeah, he's the main character, the stuff with him in the ring. It's like they don't even bring up the ring really for like the first two hours of the movie for this this battle of five armies. I felt it's like such a non-part of a movie. Like, where's the ring? What about all that shit with him having the ring? And I don't know. It's so like anticlimactic, I felt.

The extended scene, I think there's a Thorin funeral. That's one of the few I'd say. He's probably probably should have been in there. He's like one of the main characters and he doesn't get like a funeral scene. He's like the only dwarf. Yeah, he's the only one who really gets like some kind of arc, I guess. So that's kind of crazy that that scene isn't in the original. But again, it just kind of points at where the priorities were.

Because I mean, I would have taken like an hour's worth of dwarves eating food and being silly and getting them developed over, you know, scenes of. Legulus riding trolls around and shooting arrows and crazy. Like that's just not what the heart of this, this story is to me. Yeah. Because we were even saying that. Played around more with that. Yeah, exactly.

In our like Lord of the Rings discussion, trilogy episode we did for that, I remember saying that that indulgence, like it's just there, like little specks of it, like start cropping up towards the end of, like with the Legerless character especially. Like he's like, on the borders of being

like ridiculous video gamey stuff already in those movies and that's like the best example but then in the space between that you do have your King Kongs and all that other stuff in between and yeah it's just it is excessive by the time

you get to this movie this is the ultimate excess kind of Lord of the Rings project it's sad and unfortunate because it's just like you didn't see what you had what you could have done and all the creative avenues you could have taken the story,

but you had to try and recapture Lord of the Rings because they just make loads of money and everyone knows what they are. Yeah, it's unfortunate. Yeah. The fact that they released an extended version of this movie. The fucking balls on them to do that. Yeah.

Because, yeah, doesn't it mostly add action for the most part in this one? Like it's... Yeah, right. It adds nothing. And it's all mindless and you didn't... It just blends into itself. It just adds to the runtime without adding anything. Apparently the extended versions rated R.

So like there's some parts where the like big troll things or whatever, it was like, oh, there's blood in it. Oh, is that... Yeah, because it's really bloody. Yeah. I was going to say. So it's like the first R-rated Lord of the Rings film. Which is weird. It's so unnecessary.

Yeah. Yeah, that's all I thought. I'm like, this is so unnecessary. Like, it just feels out of place with like the rest of this series of movies. Yeah. Yeah. It's that baked in tonal problem where like the story starts and it's like silly kind of low stakes. And then when you're trying to conjure these epic stakes from nowhere for this huge battle,

it is like unintentionally funny as a result. So long. There's that scene where they're like building up the tension. And it seems like they're losing. and because Thorin and company are like locked up inside the fortress or whatever and won't come out. But then there's this whole this big moment where they're like 13 dwarves come charging out and that's supposed to like represent a change in the battle, even though what they're charging against is like literally thousands and thousands of like minions.

It just visually doesn't make sense. It doesn't work. It's just a big clash. yeah none of the actions like memorable the set pieces or you know I don't remember much about it's the thing I can at least point out details from the first and second movies

that I kind of like and I'm fine with the bare scene I find that really difficult with this one in particular yeah it's just like a big mesh of a bunch of bodies clashing like that's it's just like you can't even tell what the fuck is going on half the time yeah It's nothing.

You've shown me, you spent so much money showing nothing. We are all worse for you. And the more, yeah, the more I remember and think about, like, the way Thorin, like, has his final showdown with Azog on that, like, ice field. So, so stupid, man, where he's like, he, like, slides under the water and then he, like, glides along under Thorin. And it's just, it's just not cool. It's just filler.

Yeah, I think one of you said, it's just padding. Right. It's like action to make the movie longer. Right. But if there was no action, it'd probably be like 40 minutes long. But when there isn't action, though, it's like just dull. It's just like they're talking. Like, it almost makes you wish for action when there isn't, you know?

The only scene that I thought was like partially serviceable was when we got back. the other actors like Christopher Lee you know Hugo weaving Kate Blanchet Oh you like that scene the Avenger scene I mean it felt the most Remniscient of the other films You know

At least they were all back really It was cool that was it wasn't like a great scene or anything But it was the you know It felt kind of like Those actors have a very commanding screen presence And I think that it goes a long way Whereas like the rest of the movie is just like a computer

with no screen presence. I like the scenes with Lee Pace usually. Whenever he was on screen, I was like, oh, he's a good actor. When like Bilbo gives him the Ark and Stone there in his tent. I thought that was a good scene. Yeah, more of that would have been a welcome edition. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

But yeah, there's just not enough of it. This is one of the times, though, where I'd always heard about these, these like fan edits, right? of this movie. Yeah. There are a lot of them because, like, Lord of the Rings, you know, it's one of those nerd properties where it's got like a crazy passionate fan base that's willing to try and repair this.

And I was just looking up certain lists and I actually watched one of these, um, these fan edits, which I've never done, I've never done that before. Um, but I wanted to go in. I felt so exhausted. I couldn't after these. Like I'll do it. That is a year maybe.

Because what I was questioning was like the, is there a good movie wedged in this somewhere? Is there a good version of The Hobbit in this? Like, could you trim it out? Because that's what most of these fan edits attempt to do. It's mostly taking stuff out. There's very little that, like, is adding in. Because the one I settled on was,

it's just called J.R.R. Tolkien's, the Hobbit, December 2015 final, which cuts it to about four hours, I think. Okay. And yeah, it's, it's, it is noticeably better to watch it that way. Because yeah, it does just like flow as you would imagine. They, they, they take out everything with Legales, they take out everything, uh, with the love triangle. They take out most of the Battle of Five armies.

They take out most of the fluff because that is mostly what is bringing it down. Yeah. Radigast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like they, yeah, when the action starts going on for too long in like the theatrical ones, they kind of just trim it out.

just move the story on. So weirdly, that I think that's probably the preferred way. And I got up a list of how many of these damn things there are. There are so many, like, fan cuts, whether the anti-cringe cut, one of them's called, the book edit, the wizard cut. Yeah, a cut of roast mutton cut.

Like, there's a million. Tifer Grace made a cut. Did he? Yeah. Yeah. Tuffer Grace did a fan edit of The Hobbit. movie. I would have watched it if I wasn't so fucking exhausted. Yeah. I literally have to wait until like next year or some shit before I can even start

to think about watching any hobbit shit again. Yeah. So honestly, that's probably my recommendation. If you really feel like you need after watching the Lord of the Rings or something and you're getting that hankering for more of it, find one of these fan edits because I think it's much preferable over the mess. of nine plus hours, whatever the total Hobbit content wound up being. Mm-hmm. When do you think we'll hit the point in time where a studio will be conscious enough of what the public wants

that even after releasing something like the Hobbit trilogy, maybe they might do an official release of a fan at it. Well, it's basically what the Snyder cut is. You know? Because we have like four different cuts of Blade Runner, right? Those were all like industry people making different cuts for different reasons. There's a bunch of different cuts of Blade Runner. There's a bunch of different cuts of like Brazil.

And they're all for like different reasons. Mostly just, you know, studio interference. But I think it would be cool to see the day where, you know, unauthorized fan edit gets made of something. And then, you know, maybe even 10 years later, some amount of time later, if it's popular enough, if people like it enough, that it shows up. the official Blu-ray or something as like a special feature.

Like that would be cool. But at the same time, I think that, I don't know, there's a sense of like pride going along with it. They're like, we don't want to admit that we made the bad thing. You don't want to kind of acknowledge that,

yeah, exactly, that this is the fans version because the one we made didn't quite have the the chops. I hope it happens someday. Because like, there's really just, you know,

people want to give money for things that they want to see. And if there's like a better version of something, somewhere, you know, like call of the wild, remove all the CG, it's just a dude pretending to be a dog the whole time. That sounds funny. That got big on Twitter. Like, the no man sky dev was like, release the cut without the dog, you cowards. And that became viral.

That was like the most marketing that film had ever had. You would dream, if you were in charge of viral marketing a property, you would dream for that level of engagement and interest in your product. And they didn't release that cut, even though tons of people would buy it. They're fucking stupid. I'm waiting for the point in time where studios become a bit more consciously aware of ways that they can make money and provide people with things that they want, you know.

But I guess you'll just have to illegally find the better version of The Hobbit. And even then it's kind of held back where like fan edits are inherently held back by, you know, you don't have the original shots, especially audio is like all entangled and messed up if you want to change. Yeah. Like an audio track or something. It's like a different, it's like really, there are a bunch of like really obvious like cuts and like weird awkward fades.

Yeah. A lot of people are just not professionals doing it. Yeah. They're not going to be in great quality in the export. It's going to be like weird compression. And so that's always a turnoff for me in terms of like fan edits. Yeah. For me as well. I could probably do a good fan edit of these.

Someone made, um, Harry Potter edit where they replaced the ones with guns. That was pretty interesting. I want to go back to like the critical response to these. The highest rated one was Desolation of Smog, which I thought was interesting. Because I probably prefer the first one. That was me when I watched them in theaters. I liked Smog the best.

Yeah. But I've changed my perspective since. Yeah. I probably, I mean, it's not like a huge difference. I probably just prefer. the first one. It's like a little more polished to me. And yeah, five armies is like

59%. Yeah, I much prefer that first one. Yeah, kind of divided. Audiences like to, because it's just a bunch of action. I mean, that's what they want. But yeah, it's like, it's hollow.

They've all got fairly high ratings and stuff. As far as like fan boats are concerned. I'm not opposed to action. I just, it's a problem with many Hollywood movies. I want it to be in service of something. Wanted to be in service of characters. That's a core story. Yeah.

Some camaraderie. I mean, the original Lord of the Rings characters, you can tell them apart, unlike the dwarves here. Like, I know Gimley and Legalus and Aragon. Like, these fucking guys, I don't know. But, yeah, Buffa and Bubba and... Yeah, Bofa. Doodoo and smelly and... Gosey and...

That's so. Chad. Yeah, Chad. That one was so distracting because he just looks like a dude. Yeah, they're like, how do we make... It just looks like a guy. The love triangle guy. Yeah.

Yeah, the love triangle one. And, you know, he has like, he dies and dies in the elf woman's arms. Like, was I actually supposed to, like, give a shit? Yeah. We didn't even mention, like, three of the main dwarf characters, like, die in the third movie. Mm-hmm. You just don't even remember or care, like, by the time happens. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Thorin, uh... dies and it's just like, okay. Like, I had no impact on me at all. It was like really, I probably had more emotion in like fellowship. Yeah, much more. Because it's supposed to be like, I guess, a big moment because that's like the end of that family line, basically.

Like all three of them are killed around the same time. It's like, well, they're done. Yeah. I guess. But you don't really get any of that weight with it. Mm-hmm. You don't really feel that, right? There's just like so much other fantasy out there that you could spend nine hours of your life watching.

Like Lord of the Rings or like Game of Thrones. Yeah, right. Very infuriating movie, very bullshit, scam. It's a scam. It's literally a scam. That's how I felt. I fucked this movie. It's a two out of ten for me. I hit it.

I wouldn't go that low, but... It's literally a scam. I wouldn't recommend it, really. especially the extended one. I think my reaction's more negative because I just watched the extended ones. I probably wouldn't be so negative if I just watched the regular one.

Maybe they shouldn't sell it. I gave the regular one a six out of ten and a three star. Yeah, maybe like, because again, like, you know, the other ones, they feel like extended cuts are ready. They're already too long. Yeah.

You just, yeah, I had the one cut or something. Yeah, extending extension. I understand the World of the Rings extended cuts. Like there's tons of more material in those books that they filmed and that people want to see. Like, it makes sense. Or like the Blade Runner cut, it makes the movie better, the whatever, whatever that cut is called. Here, it's like so fucking unnecessary. It's only, it's like they had to make extended cuts because they had extended cuts of War of the Rings, basically.

Yeah, it's obligatory. Everything about this is just out of obligatory. The entire fucking trilogy making it three movies. It just felt like out of obligate making it at all. It was just, the entire thing was an obligation to everybody involved. Nobody wanted to do it. It's crazy. I don't know if it's actually like happening yet, but there's that, there's that thing that

often happens where it's like a big, big franchise. And then when the new thing comes out and the new thing sucks, then people start kind of getting more positive on the thing that became, that was before the new bad thing. that bad thing being the rings of power. Yeah. People like... Good point. Bringing up the Hobbit, like...

Yeah, at least it's not the Rings of Power. Well, the type of thing. The first two Hobbit movies are better than Rings of Power. Battle of the Five Armies is worse. Yeah, yeah, I can hear of them. They have different problems. Like, like... That's the thing that I mean.

The show is too bland. Like, even the bad parts of this are kind of, like, funny. Like, unlike Rings of Power, which is just so dumb. the entire time. This is still a Peter Jackson movie, but I mean, these are still Peter Jackson movies. I really just had an issue with that third one. I mean, really. Like Thorin, his like, I guess we didn't talk much about his, like, dark transformation.

I would have preferred if that was, like, more subtle. But, you know, they give him, like, this deep, growly voice, like, you will not take my gold, it's all mine. It's, like, kind of over the top. and just yeah I would have preferred like a little more solity there maybe

maybe that's wrong of me to ask because it's a Hobbit movie made for like families perhaps but I don't know the whole thing just needed like more depth

or just more going on yeah yeah incredibly hollow hmm I wish I liked them I wish there was just like I wish there was just like I wish I liked everything

you'd like more to say about them yeah yeah because it feels like a waste it's kind of like bland it feels like that feels like a waste. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, it's one of the, like, best-selling books of all time. Like, it's such a, like,

ingrained in pop culture of story anyway. Like, just like, Lord of the Rings is. So having, like, a good adaptation of the Hobbit

would have been nice if they could have had the wherethole and, uh, less greed to actually just have like a, just imagine like a one, like three hour, like,

it's all from Billbo's perspective. Like, it's just kind of a bit more whimsical, have a few more other songs in there. Like, that would be a fun, like accompanying project to that Lord of the Rings trilogy. Instead of like the two trilogies like trying to fill the same space. That's one of the big jokes, isn't it?

Like that image that shared of like someone has taken the three Lord of the Rings books and put them next to each other and then got a copy of The Hobbit and then said like, yeah, three movies out of both. Yeah, the visual of it is quite telling. And there's definitely quite enough. to justify it. Yeah, exactly. It's completely bloated. Absolutely.

Disgusting. Thanks, Alex. All right. Yeah, thanks. I was watching The Lord of the Rings. I was going to watch them anyway. So I'm glad I finally got to see the extended ones for the first time. And, you know, I'll probably never watch them again.

But, hey, I can say I saw them. It was, yeah, it was a particular level of torture that I do not wish to subject myself to ever again. Did we give our ratings for the last one? I gave it two. I said three star. Yeah, I'm lower than that probably. Maybe two star out of five. Yes, really not good.

It's like close to like two and a half star. It's insulting. It's a scam. It's an actual scam. It's pretty well, especially the extended one. I think I rate like the regular cut more so. six out of ten just because it's shorter. Yeah, it's definitely better, but it doesn't feel like mad praise just because it's like shorter, you know?

Yeah, exactly. I guess before we, as we get into questions, if we're all ready for that. Yeah, I've got a question kind of relating to the Hobbit movies just for you, Alex. How do you feel about the usage of like different UK accents for different characters or species or, you know, I think they had like cockney for the trolls and like Scottish for the dwarves. And like, do you feel like there's a hint of like stereotype or, I don't know, would we say racism? Like, that's just kind of normalized in films like either. I don't think it's like really negative stereotypes to me. Um, no. It's more just nice having like a varied,

because there is like, uh, the bard guy. He's Welsh and he's got his Welsh acts. you write the dwarves with the Scottish accent that's like a fantasy trope that's like never really bothered me especially with a lot of of these like myths kind of coming from Europe and it just seems like it fits like I definitely prefer that as opposed to like a bunch of like

like a contemporary American accents or something I think the newer Willow show is getting clown for that at the moment like really a warwick davies willow there's like a TV show of it at the moment

it's yeah it's nothing to write it's just one of those 80s it was Ron Howard properties it's just being revisited or whatever in his fantasy yeah I kind of like that

it's also like in Game of Thrones as well they've got like they do the similar thing of the northern accents and yeah I like it fantasy environment. Okay, cool. I guess we'll do some other questions. I guess that's the Hobbit trilogy then.

Man. Fuck. Wow. Let's do some. Yeah, fuck. That's all I can really say. It's like, exhausting. I'm so done.

I'm so done with it. Yeah. Get me out of here. I didn't do anything. So it's a lot of content, isn't it? All right, then. Let's do some questions from the Southern and a cast community. head over to the suggestion thread on the subreddit, just like an actual crocodile did.

You can ask us whatever you feel like. I'm excited to hear your guys' thoughts on the Hobbit trilogy. My question is, have any of you read the Lord of the Rings books and or the Hobbit and or the Simarillion? Given that all three of you are fans of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. I'm curious what your takes are on the source material and the ways Peter Jackson diverges from it. For example, I personally like that the movie version of Aragon is more related. and I wish the films had included the Barrow White. Yeah, I was a big fan of these.

It was a really good, I think it was a BBC project or something where like a radio version of Lord of the Rings. Oh, of course. That sounds fun. Listening to as a kid. Yeah, the different voices and so expressive. I think Ian Holm actually played the not Bill Bowie. the Elijah Wood character. I can't believe in blank,

Frodo in that. So yeah, and I've been a fan of The Hobbit as well for a long time. I will say, I haven't read them. What's it, Tom Bombadil? That's the big one that most fans of the books can agree. It's like a good choice to leave out of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. That's what's interesting about the original trilogy is that it was,

It was an adaptation that took creative liberties and did things in a really sensible way to just make a great film series out of. It didn't have to be 100% accurate to the books, and it's better that it wasn't. You know, as those were being released, sure, there were some fans of the original source material that would be like, you know, why is this different or whatever? But if it's different and it works better, who cares? You know, it can succeed as its own product. It can succeed as its own thing. You know, read the book still exists. I haven't read the original source material.

I've heard that the Simaurelian is a lot less like a narrative and more almost like an encyclopedia. Like that it's a difficult read. But I think Gail's read parts of it. I don't know. Gael seems to be a very good source for knowledge on Lord of the Rings related stuff, so I just kind of trust him. But I don't know if I'll ever read it. I've got a lot of other shit to do.

Yeah, the Somerilians are just a bit too deep for me. I can't be doing with that. Pretty deep. But you, Ralph, you have any experience with these? I haven't read them. I haven't read them. I'd like to, probably soon, since I just saw the movies. But no, I haven't read them. Yeah. Report back. I will. Yeah, it's worth it. And the differences are fun, kind of like, comparing, like, what they do. Because the adaptation is, like, a, so such an interesting challenge, you know? It seems like you have the whole story, like, laid out for you and, like, how could you go wrong? But then there's actually almost more room to go wrong. to go wrong, you know, like, especially when you're dealing with a new set of challenges.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What do you keep? Yeah, what do you keep? What are you willing to part with? What you cut out? Upsaying the purists. Yeah, you have to structure it, right? Yeah, some things don't translate from a book to a movie.

They just don't. So you need to, right. Yeah, yeah, obviously the way the story, like, flows is just entirely different. Yeah. Condensed way a film comes together as opposed to a book. Yeah. The way they adapted it for Lord of the Rings It was great

I mean those movies Are paced perfectly They go by From what I know I mean I think they're like a little more action heavy Than like the books are But That's basically

I think some characters are actually improved in the film as well Like I think Barmeer There's a bit more Going on to him Yeah So for Little characters here and there

Chad Both for Biffa Bomber Bofer and Chad Yeah Those are my favorite Lord of the Rings characters Chad War 3 That's the one I like

Can the next question not be about Lord of the Rings please I just I'm trapped in hell right now I need to get out No that was the last one Okay how about this one From a no juggernaut 53339

with a success of The Last of Us TV series, what film or TV series would you choose to adapt with complete creative control if you had the budget you needed to fulfill this project of yours? Oh, I love that show. That's on. The third episode was great. Haven't gotten to the third one yet, but...

I just watched it. Yeah, it's definitely the best episode. Yeah, it's like exactly how you adapt. I feel like we should talk about it when the series is... Yeah. When the season's over. It's a good adaptation. That's all I'll say.

Really enjoy it so far. I think it's great. I was thinking about this because, like, yeah, I'm like, I love The Last of Us. I would adapt Bioshock. I think those make good movies. Those would make good movies. The Bioshock game. So I'm torn on Bioshock because of the whole, the universe is really cool and ripe.

Yeah. But I feel like so much of like the punch of the story is the fact that, like, you're controlling it. So I don't know how you could adapt that. that punch. Even with Halo. You know, there's stuff you could get out of it for sure. I think out of all the games I've played,

probably Mass Effect seems the most ripe for creating, like, an interesting narrative story out of it. Best effect would be a good one. Yeah. Could do, like, a good TV series. Yeah, like, it would need to be either professionally,

succinctly trimmed for, like, a trilogy of movies or something, or be a, TV show with the right production value. It would have to be a show. Yeah, well, what's cool about The Last of Us is, like, because it's a TV show, they have more time. They, like, really elaborate on certain parts, which are, like, cool.

You see before the infection and so on. It's, like, really interesting how they decided to adapt it. I think you can adapt anything well. It's just how you do it. Yeah. The passion of people involved. I also just watch Dragon Ball Evolution to kind of compare the adaptations. And yeah, that movie's fucking awful.

That's not how you do it. Clearly, they didn't even play the game probably. And yeah, silly names like Goku and so on. Yeah. You need good material, I feel. You need, like, good worlds and, like, characters to, like, base it off of... Blast of Us benefits from, like, having a good narrative to adapt. And, yeah, I feel like, if you have that, you can do something interesting there.

Yeah, like, you could do something good with Halo. It's just, yeah, I don't know. they haven't done it. Yeah, that's the thing. Because with like The Last of Us, they're almost like treating the game as like pre-vis for the show. It's like that faithful.

Yeah, but they find like new angles to approach it. What they change is like interesting. But you said Halo and that would be my choice, man. I feel like you could there was a time in place where you could have done something, not now. I feel like it's too late now and you've like

fucked it beyond any repair. But there was a time, you could have done something with it. You could have taken the imagery, the music, just the way they kind of would tell stories in those games. You could have done something with that and made it cool, like a kind of a big spectacle, you know, sci-fi action, the military angle and the religious. You could have done something with that. You could have, if you actually cared about the source material as much as, like, they do on it at HBO for, like, The Last of Us. Yeah. I feel like lucky. that like, yeah, game actually liked was adapted well.

Like, oh, it worked out this time. Makes me feel bad for like, yeah, you guys, but your Halo show. How it just came out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I, so, yeah, two franchises for me, if we're talking, like,

complete creative control and also complete talent. Let's just imagine that I'm like some skilled, you know, showrunner. Yeah, with that caveat, too, yeah. that I'm like, George Lucas or something. You know, or, you know,

creating a film or a TV show. Yeah, two properties, death note and mass effect would be my ones that I feel like, you know, I would have the most grasp on what the heart of the property is

and what works about it the best, you know? Just fan to art. With a mass effect thing, would you not have a bit of the same? kind of issue with the whole like, would Shepard like be the lead character? Would he be a good guy or a bad guy? Like the decisions and the... First of all, it would be Femmchap. True. Yeah, okay. And then, yeah, I don't know. I would have to, you know, work out the kinks. I don't think that the most compelling

parts about Mass Effect are whether or not you choose the Paragon or Renegade option. I think that, you know, the world building is far more compelling. And, so you could have like a layered character. I always play Renegade. I wouldn't want the character to be unrelatable if let's say I was adapting it to, um, the,

you know, television show. I would make it so that they have some character, you know, they're, you know, not completely sociopathic or anything, uh,

but that they're not, you know, just somewhere in between, but not, they have to make tough decisions and it's not always predictable. Yeah, what sort of, uh,

decision they'll go with, you know? I think that it should be, like, nuanced and interesting, so. All right. Well, I guess that's that one then. Let's do this one. From a goosey moog goose face, too. Do you chaps believe Rick and Morty will be able to continue without Justin Rowland? They're contractually obligated to, so yes.

Yeah. What does it look like? I've been trying to, like, think about this ever since the story dropped, like, because it's not just Rick and Morty. a bunch of these Royal and projects that have been like pop by bye by squion that game just came out yeah squanch games of harm life uh yeah solar opposites or whatever it's called there's like a few yeah he's he's he's like responsible for a lot of shit and um i don't want to you know i i want to be clear i'm not like delegitimizing any of the accusations or uh you know any of the his bad shit that

he's, you know, obviously shouldn't. I don't even, I didn't even look up most of the allegations, right? So I'm not trying to make a commentary on that. But what I am saying is, this is a guy who is like, well connected and ingrained into animation. They just did the Poloni, you know, Halloween special where essentially it was like, oh, let's give like 20 different animators this spotlight to showcase their work for Hulu. you know, just he's a very, was, a very

like industry-connected person that gave a lot of people a lot of opportunities. And so it sucks to hear that he's like, okay, wow, like an actual abusive piece of shit. I don't know every single accusation, but, you know, it seems like pretty serious and credible. So, yeah, it sucks. Because now we lose all of those great things that they were contributing to art,

even though, like, I'm not a fan of his whole, like, ad lib and do the Morty voice for every single thing that he was a part of. I was, you know, I didn't play high on life specifically because of that, because it's just annoying to me, and I really didn't like Trover saves the universe. But fuck, it sucks because he was helping a lot of, you know, other animators get started in the industry. Like, he was not trying to say he was a good guy.

I'm just saying that, you know, there's some good things he did. It sucks. Mm-hmm. Shit sucks, man. And like all these products that he was kind of headlining, their DNA is so intertwined with him. Yeah. I don't really know what they look like without him. You can get someone to impersonate Rick and Morty, right?

If they're going to try to continue having the exact same voice anyway. But so much of the show is just him ad-libbing. Maybe the show will get better if he's not doing that. and it's actually just like, maybe the show will improve, but it won't be the same show is basically the takeaway. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I kind of feel like it should have ended a while ago personally anyway, but...

It's their most successful show. Being like, that's the thing. It's such a like, so ingrained in pop culture at this point. Everyone knows these characters. They were just in that fucking space jam, weren't they? They're like, they're everyone. Yeah. You're right. Oh, remind me of that shit.

The real question is, I guess, you know, I guess if the show continues without him, it'll make people less ashamed to wear the merchandise. Maybe that's the... Well, does it not how... It also's got that as well now, doesn't it? Like, it does feel kind of weird. You can't remove the association. Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to see where it goes.

Yeah, I really can't. It's very interesting either way. Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately. Crazy. Crazy. They just, they need to replace Justin Royland with Chris Pratt.

Done. Instantana attention. It gets so much better. Exactly. He's so cool. You shouldn't even try to do the voice. You just do like Chris Pratt. Exactly.

Yeah, they start out season, what, seven or eight? And they're like, whoa, geez, Rick. I finally went through puberty and Rick's like Oh my voice changed too for some reason And then they just keep going We went to an alternate universe

Where we sound like Chris Pratt now Yeah we killed this version of Yeah I guess with a multiverse You can just have any excuse Yeah They could just say that Yeah The Pratt verse

With how like self-referential they are Do you think they're gonna like Write it into the show I think they're gonna have to Unless they've got like an identical sounding voice I think that's going to be the only way to do it. I feel like that's a bad idea. Yeah, I feel like even if they have an identical voice,

they'll still acknowledge it somehow. It's like the whole style. You just keep moving on. Rick and Morty will be played by Maya Rudolph now. That's a good idea. Oh, nice. Yeah, like the M&M, nice. Exactly.

Hell yeah. Who are they going to get? What's funny is Dan Harmon's, like, doesn't have a great... history either morally, ethically. Yeah, he's quite controversial. He's kind of a shit bag too.

I guess not to the level of, what was it, domestic assault and like sexting 16 year olds or something? Like, I don't even, I haven't looked into this shit. I have so much other shit I got to do. It sucks trying to stay aware of who's getting canceled for what.

Fucking. Ezra Miller's still creeping around, I guess. It's hard to keep track with winning. In the same week, it's what, like, Callahan and then this... Yeah, fuck. Everybody's getting canceled. All my friends are canceled, don't you know? All right.

Yeah, I don't know what to add to this. It'll be very different. I guess, maybe. Maybe it'll be the same or better. It makes it, it makes me want to see the show and what they do. Like, I guess someone will post clips on Twitter. Maybe I won't even have to watch an episode. Yeah, the morbid curiosity of it.

I stopped before season four. I watched all the way up till the end of season three, and then I did not continue because I just didn't feel like I needed to. I think I got to about halfway through four, then I stopped. Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of the same over and over. Mm-hmm.

But wab-la-la-la-da-dubub-dubub. I'm sorry. Sardonicast Rick. I've turned into a Sardana cast. Ah, man. All right, we got time for one more? All right, should we do one more here? Another one from Goosey McGooseface.

I can round it off. The Gold and Raspberry Awards recently struck off 12-year-old Ryan Kira Armstrong's nomination for worst actress in the Fire Starter remake following backlash and condemnation. Former child actor Drew Barrymore, who was nine when she starred in the original film, called it bullying.

Obviously, you gentlemen are no strangers to criticising bad child performances, but is it right to hold a child's performance on par with an adult and thus mock its poor performance? Is it indeed a form of bullying to nominate a child as a candidate for the year's worst acting?

I would only say yes, because the Razis are not a serious organization. trying to accurately judge the worst performance in a year anyway. If they were actually serious about how they nominated and it was like some sort of stringent process of like, okay, we're actually watching, you know, the worst movies the year and this is how we actually feel, then it would be totally fine if that's the conclusion they came to.

But I'm pretty sure you can just, like, you pay a fee and you can vote for the Razies. Like, I think you can just, like, I think that's how we're like, I think anybody can do it. I don't even think it's a real serious organization. Like, they just, one year they nominated every Bruce Willis movie or something, and then they apologized for that too when they found out he had like a brain problem. Yeah.

Yeah. This reminds me of when Kavengenay Wallace was nominated for, fuck, I forget what that movie was called. She was like a nine-year-old at the Oscars or something. The Onion tweeted out, okay. I guess we're going to say what everyone's thinking. Covengeny Wallace is kind of a C word that gets you demonetized on YouTube. And they apologize for that too. I thought that was pretty funny.

Uh-huh. Was that the onion? That was the onion, I think. Yeah, yeah, that was the onion. But that's satire. I don't know. It's kind of funny. People talk about the razis all the time.

I wish they would just ignore them because the razis are like a fucking joke. They're not serious. I hate the razis. Yeah, they're, I just hate them. but they don't provide anything meaningful to any discourse no it's just so played out yeah but it's just been around for so long and they don't like do anything yeah like i think this year they gave it to the blond the oscars are more legitimate than the razzies and i i think the oscars are like often trash yeah yeah the razzies just doesn't justify its existence in any way like there's no

point to it existing yeah razzies awards uh-huh Razi Awards nominations, blonde leads film with films with eight nods. Yeah. So it got nominated eight times. Yeah, like, who gives his shit? They nominated like, Shelly DeVall for the Shining, you know? Uh-huh. Like, okay.

The only time I thought the Razzies were funny was when Holly Berry came on to accept her award for Catwoman. Yeah. And then blamed her agent and then stopped appearing in movies for a while. Well, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, there's, you could turn the Razies into something more fun. But I guess, like, I don't, like, it just seems like this weird, like, they're not nominating the worst movies of the year anyway. They're nominating the most popular movies of the year. Exactly.

Popular. Right. Like, I don't know. Bryce Dallas Howard seemed like the only one that was even trying in the new Jurassic world. So I don't know why she was nominated. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

It's just, it's just mean and pointless. Yeah. It's so unsurious that it literally is just an organization. That's just, it feels mean-spirited because it doesn't seem like they're serious about it anyway. Seems like that's the only point. No,

like, yeah, exactly. They're like a bunch of trolls. Yeah, you know, they're like a bunch of trolls. Like, do you even like movies?

Yeah. It kind of feels like when we're talking about those, like, you know, those lists, like certain websites. and how much of it is just to like get attention and get the Razzie's name, uh,

you know, some, some eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, didn't they,

they nominated just like real life people. Did they nominate like Rudy Giuliani and like the Borat movie or something? Like just these weird kind of like meme. Oh, they did do something like that, didn't they? These meme nominations that are just like, okay, you're not taking this seriously.

what's the point they just make fun of a celebrity they find like a couple of celebrities they want to poke fun at for that year right it's like Adam Sandler Eddie Murphy they just like let's poke fun at them for the year and then move on it's like that's all they do

not even the illusion that it's like any kind of legitimate thing yeah they seem more interested in just prodding at celebrities than anything to do with the movies to be honest yeah if it was like they were actually picking the worst movies of the year

then it would actually be helpful. It would be interesting. Which movies to... Yeah, sure. I would like to, if you wanted to curate the worst movies and even if you had some sort of like

qualification, like it had to be in a, it had to have a theatrical run. That's like a low bar, right? That would be an interesting thing. Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. You could have got like a panel. I think someone should do that. Someone fucking replace the Razies. Get a better award show. Yeah. Like, we could do that. We could have like a panel of

like YouTube people to decide on the And you can have a worst awards show category and every year you nominate the Razzies and they win. Yeah. It's always a tie between the Razzis and the Oscars. 420 Awards is, uh, they're making some interesting choices this year by not releasing their award show at all. I forgot to do it. Yeah. Very bold, creative choice.

I think they scrapped it. Yeah. No, there's a few hopefuls left. Don't crush their dreams. Sorry, everybody. We're closer to next year's 420 than last year's. I don't know what's going on. Sad state.

Maybe he'll announce it. That's kind of funny. So, yeah, I guess short it. You could make some, I want to include the perspective, at least, that, like, yeah, you know, if you're a child actor, you shouldn't be shielded from criticism. you're like on the world stage, you know, whether or not it's them being responsible for being there or their parents being there. Typically, when I criticize child performances, I'm not criticizing the child being like, oh, my God, how can they, how can they not act better? I'm not

criticizing the child's abilities. I'm criticizing the adults for casting a child without the proper abilities in the role because that's what it, like, the child isn't responsible for being hired for the film. They were just in the film. So if their performance is unconvincing, it's on the adults, it's on the people that cast them. It's on, you know, the parents.

Yeah, casting director. That's who the blame falls on. So I want to make that clear. But yeah, at the same time, I would agree. It does feel mean-spirited from the Razzies. It's just because it's pointless. Like, there's no reason you needed to do that. It would have been the same thing.

same if you didn't right well we're like we have opinions we have like tastes like I don't just shit on every movie I have movies that I like that's just all they do they just shit on every movie it's just yeah pointless is the word for it yeah all right I guess that about does it for questions yep I guess so too-da who's recommendation is it let's think it's yours it's yours I think death to smoochie that's right that's your goddamn right it's mine Death to Smoochie. Finally.

I can remove that from mine. No, then, then, because I was going to do it. It's just so quick. Yeah. Just came right out with it. People were asking for it. So. Which death to Smucci, though?

What year? Is it the one from 1927? Oh, yeah. Are you watching the extended cut? Yeah. This is only 2002. Oh, it's that recent. All right.

There's one film called Death to Smoochie. It's directed by Danny DeVito, 2002. we're going to figure out what the fuck this shit is. We're going to figure out what's going on here. I'm scared. Terrified. I know. It's like Barney.

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm terrified. Fuck. And also it looks weird. All right. If you don't want to be spoiled for death to smoochie, watch it before the next episode comes out. These episodes come out every two weeks.

You can listen to them early by going to sardonicast.com. Sign up for premium. it's only $2 a month, or go to patreon.com slash sardonicast, same deal. We got merch, link in the description. We have a SardanaCast highlights channel. Go check it out. Go subscribe. It's on YouTube.

It should be a link in the description as well. And I think I believe I did not forget anything, actually. So here we are. Oh, yeah. Why don't we drag on this fucking podcast for another like six hours in the true fashion of fucking Hobbit movies, Jesus Christ. So mad. Yeah, it's just another extra hour.

I'm glad to be done with it, so. It is, yeah, the wrong type of adventure. Thanks for listening, everybody. The journey has just begun. Happy Shrek or something. Bye. Happy Hobbit. Forever.

Bye. Bye. Goodbye. The end.