Sardonicast - Sardonicast 164: Rebel Moon 2, Challengers, Magnolia

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

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3, 2, 1. A scar from the scargiver herself. That was a line in a movie, believe it or not. I'm Adam from your movie sucks. This is Sardonicast. Hold it home boy. I don't need to hear that word. Okay.

I need to fix you all one little minute. Because what's a scargiver again? What's a... It's a person who gave him a scar. That nice for my H.E. And we are spoiled for choice right now. So many good movies, so many good shows. Oh, no.

And Rebel Moon. I only watched it because I know you wanted to talk about it, right? Well, yeah. I felt like I watched part one twice. I can't. Well, actually, that kind of wouldn't funny to have just seen part one twice and never actually finish the saga, the, the blossoming new tale from Snyder. Yeah.

Which apparently this isn't even the last one anymore because like it was supposed to be originally maybe That was my impression. I thought it was gonna be a two-party He's like kind of he's stuck in the Netflix web now where like I guess everything he makes on Netflix they want to be like a huge franchise this Was he called army of the dead like universe and oh by the way that's that's in the rebel moon universe? Don't you know? And now that's gonna be a Trilogy. It's like oh my god. Oh my god stop. Yeah, who is who is enjoying this who is asking for this? because it sure as hell ain't me. Well, apparently it is you.

Why'd you watch the first one twice? Yeah. Okay, I watched you when it came out. Then weeks and weeks went by and then we were going to talk about it on the podcast. And I was like, oh, I can't remember a single thing. Oh, yeah. Not one thing. Because I didn't take notes, like an idiot on that first time.

Well, I forgot that you told me that on that episode of the podcast. So I guess we're in the same boat. Well, that's the thing about Zach Snyder's movies nowadays is they do kind of act like these memory suppressants. I don't know about you, but like they, I think everyone who finishes Rebel Moon, even part one, but let alone part two deserves like some kind of medal, some award. It's like, it's a challenge to get through this film. And we thought that first one was that, what do they even call it? Is it part one? Is it a part one?

I guess. It said permanent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even in part one, we were saying about how like it's all over the place, it's jumping about. It's uninteresting. It's boring.

He found a way to. somehow make it worse. Like part two is somehow worse than part one. Part one was already shocking. Yeah, they're, they're, they're worse in different ways. I found, I found, I found part two to be funnier in some ways. I had some good laughs, some good unintentional loves, yeah. Like, like, like how Cade the tortured crossing can be funnier in, in some ways than, than twisted pear. Right? There's something like it was reminding me of like film production on that level at point so completely non-ironically like not trying to exaggerate like that's that scene early on where they're all like standing in a line in that barn and it's like awkwardly blocked

in this like this continued grease smear over the lens so you can't really see anything it's like this is shoddy you know yeah I'm pretty sure they were like 18 90 million dollars apiece but it's like this this does not look good and it's I feel I feel bad and I feel like I have to take back what I used to always jerk off about Snide. It was like, well, he's got a knife of visuals. He's got, allegedly. You know, he's really got that side of it down, Pat. But you know what, a few weeks ago I tried, I revisited the watchman or at least tried

to because, you know, I read the graphic novel back in day. I think it's a really good story. I was trying to show it to somebody. We start watching the film, half an hour goes by and I'm like, you know what, this is, this is almost unwatchable to me because like now in the space of, yeah, because like all of those ticks, all of those Snyderisms that like were burgeoning around that time but like they're cemented now. And it's like, oh, you're still doing that same thing. You just, you don't care about like scenes. You're so like wrapped up in this like referential imagery

that you don't even care about like the storytelling part of it and making it resonate beyond just like these flat references. And that's what Rebel Moon Part 2 feels like it. When the first one did as well, it's like, oh, there's a bit of Dark Souls, there's a bit of Star Wars, there's a bit of Kurosawa, there's blah, blah, blah, it's just endless. And this one somehow, you know, at least in part one, there was something about that structure where it was like, yeah, it was changing environment every 10, 15 minutes. It was doing something crazy. It was a bit more stimulating.

Exactly. Even if it was the most boring movie ever made, it was still somehow. Yeah, yeah. But there's something more boring about checking time code of this film an hour in, not even any action. Still story time. It's like, what? You pitched this as a Star Wars movie, right?

And it's like, there's no Star Wars movie. movie with 15, 20 minutes passes and there hasn't been something breezy, some action thing, it's building up to these small little set. There's nothing. For the first hour of this film, they are sitting around talking as if it's Game of Thrones or something, as if it's on that caliber, as if these characters are fleshed out or anything to explore. It was, they all took turns.

That scene. Just telling stories that nobody cared about. That scene where they just sit down in the bar and they just take turns like, what's your backstory friend? And it's like, what? What? You had the opportunity. You had like four plus hours of real estate to plan out the story and this is the way you

structured it? What? And then like right after you develop it, you kill half of them. So it's like, there's no excuse for this. I think anybody that hates the Matrix revolutions would gain some respect for it after watching this because this kind of tries to do the whole like, oh, culmination of events and war and all these characters in the battle. But like, the Matrix Revolutions at least had.

characters that they fleshed out in some way and some sense of pacing and some sense of stakes, right? Like, sure, it's a, it's a goofy movie for a huge chunk of it. And not all of it works. But I was definitely wishing I was watching that over this as I was watching it. You know? I mean, you could pick, like, out of all the influences from this movie, if you just threw them onto a hat and pulled out any of them would be superior to this.

You'd actually get something, you know? Yeah, you could put on any Star Wars movie, any... Man, like some of these like mech designs they're pulling out look like straight out destiny or I'm sure some Japanese artist I don't know or something like this. It just feels like he looked at George Lucas and was like, I can do that. But he, what, he chose Hidden Fortress. I'm going to do seven samurai. Yeah. It's like as simple and surface level as that.

And like completely ignoring like everything in film that has happened since the 60s and just like, oh, it seems so tone deaf. So just like. Yeah. And it doesn't fit in anywhere. By the time everyone's fatigued about Star Wars, he's like, this is my shot. Now's my chance. This is my moment. Now's my time.

We're going to have. Do they even call them anything? The lightsabers? They're like, fucking, oh, red and blue light katanas. Oh, very cool. That's not a lightsaber. Fuck off. And it's so pointless, too.

Every single fight scene happens, like, in the same barn. Like, and I'm pretty sure that it was just the same barn. from the first movie. Like, holy fuck, you don't even have set pieces. There's no set pieces in this film. It's just one long scene. And then some of the movie is just like pointless flashbacks that I can't even remember. Yeah, because it's like, they have a really simple basic setup.

It's like Helms Deep from Lord of the Rings or something. There's a place that's understuffed that needs protecting. Let's go. Let's build up this tension. Let's have this big war scene. The odds are against them. There's some kind of baked intention in that. But every, everything like obvious you'd expect from that kind of setup that would help the

tension that would build something exciting to watch. They just do the opposite of. Like you'd expect like the first section of the movie, the first half an hour to be this like mad scramble to get ready. But the way it's presented they're like, well, you got five days to collect the grain. Let's go and kind of casually farm for a little bit. Meanwhile the baddie empire. Let's do it in slow motion.

Yeah, it definitely is slow motion. But meanwhile the bad guys are like calling up like, How's the farming going? How's all that grain? And it's like, wow, this is tense. This is exciting. But even going back to the whole grain plot thing anyway, it's so absurd that this empire even wants to go and get the grain anyway. Well, it's like how in Mars needs moms the Martians didn't know how to be moms.

It's the empire doesn't know agriculture and grain harvesting and sifting. So it's very important. It's like, why do you choose grain in this sci-fi setting where they have like hovering, you know, trucks, they've got technology that can bring you back from the brink of death. He probably built it around the slow-mo scenes. He probably imagined like, oh dude, fucking grain harvesting and slow-mo, oh my god, and then worked from there. He probably just thought of the slow-mo scenes that he wanted to film and then just worked

backwards. Hmm. So if you want some sci-fi harvesting scenes, Dune just came out. And you know what? That gap between Dune part one and two. I remember so much there was that gap of time. I remembered way more about Dune part one than the gap between Rebel Moon part one and two. And that was like a mere matter of months, you know? Yeah.

Well, I mean, like it's not even, it's not even just that it's boring. It's that it's boring and nothing they're showing is new and it's all just derivative of something else, right? Like every single scene, I'm like, oh, it's just that, but less interesting. Oh, it's just that, but less, but more boring. Worst pulled off. Yeah. I'm like, I'm reading invincible right now because the show's just not going fast enough for me.

Nice. And that, that book is derivative, but they figure out the angles to flesh out characters and they find somewhere to take it. They really like indulge in the characters and they don't let things go. And it's like, yeah,

you can be derivative if you want, but why don't you make a character that we resonate with or has some kind of arc that's interesting or some visual flair to this that's fun or maybe it's the action that you're a fact that there's, There's no focus point. But also, to be fair, Invincible is more of a satire than a rip-off. Invincible is more like poking fun at the other properties, so you necessarily need to. Like early on, especially, it's very satirical and like there's like parodies of Star Trek and everything.

But the longer it goes, the more kind of depth these characters have. But there's no parody angle here. There's no, there's really no self-awareness. A lot of them lack self-awareness. They're so self-serious and... Oh, yeah. Humiless isn't necessarily aware, but, like, they really all are humorless. Yeah.

And just, like, there's no passion. There's no, there's nothing... There's no character you, like, attach yourself to and, like, everyone's always down in the muck and not in a way that, like, is, you know, like an Aronovsky movie or something where it's, like, heavy and it seems intentional. It's like, you're playing with these things that aren't meshing. You know, these characters are so self-serious, but they're playing around with these, like, monster men and this, like, pulpy stuff.

well setting and it just doesn't mesh. And everything looks fake. Oh, it looks so bad. Yeah, there's no, there's no moment where I can believe I'm like, oh, in the universe of Rebel Moon, there's totally other planets around. We showed them in the flashbacks. We're just here in the barn. All these like exterior shots of like planets in space with these big dreadnoughts and

one, that's like it's a relevant. fun of these space movies. But one, it's irrelevant and two, it like it looks horrendous. It looks like previs. It looks so unfinished. And it's like, well, yeah, I thought for the visuals was the thing we're supposed to come for you for in your films, but I guess not. I think Zach Snyder being his own DP is one of the worst things that could have possibly

happened to him. And writer too, right? because he's both now, right? Oh yeah, did he used to just not write and now everything's even worse? I'm pretty sure he was not, he wasn't, yeah. Whereas this army of the dead business from Rebel Moon, he's credited as a writer. And the fact there are three screenwriters credited on this is. Oh, it's hilarious enough on itself.

Each of them watched another movie and copied it. Didn't even attempt to like blend these three different things or, yeah. Yeah, it's. So, I guess he's just one of those examples of someone who was probably a bit better before they were so full of themselves. Like, as in they had other people holding them back in some way, right? Making them be a bit more realistic. Like, this is just speculation. Yeah.

The more freedom he's got, the worse of a filmmaker he's become. The more confident he is about what he can do, the worse his movies are. Yeah. I got this, I'm the DP. Okay, you want to fix those dead pixels? Is that what DP stands for to you? Do you want to, yeah, you want to get that grease off the lens? So I can see what's happening?

No, it looks great. Mmm, yummy. I don't know, I thought it was off to a real good start when immediately in the narration from Anthony Hopkins. He calls the character like Gunner, he pronounces it, he pronounces it, Guna. Oh shit. He's like, and the man Guna. That's pretty good.

I was like, oh, we're in for a treat today. I didn't even notice that. There were a few random, like, the British stuff was really like standing out to me because like the villains obviously are the empire from Star Wars, which are obviously like a combination of like the British Empire combined with like Nazi imagery and this kind of stuff. So of course, all the villains are, they like sat around in like knitted sweatshirts like in, like in the dreadnorts like messaging each other with the comical accents and it's like the least threatening goofy thing and then when you go into like the there's like a king and queen

kind of subplot that's like in there with the main character who's she she's on the run because she killed the the princess or whatever it's like it's like the one thing that character has one bit of like I guess tension or backstory she's got all this grief she's got all this misery from killing this princess. And then it turns out she didn't actually kill the princess. I guess spoilers. Oh, yeah. That's the thread for movie three, four, five, and six.

They got to go find the princess and the royalty. And like, I'm pretty sure it was the, was it the doctor from, from Saw? Was that the came? Yeah, that was Carrie Ellis. Yeah. He was saying like in the most British comically over the top voice, like, you bastard, and all this kind of stuff. It was like, what, like, this is, God, it just does not work.

Like, jumping from, oh, you're in this kind of, it's evoking, like, Western imagery. You've got, like, the windmill in the background. They're in the desert with the farming and whatnot and the hats and all that. Yeah, and then you cut to a flashback and it's like Renaissance, like royalty. Oh, my God, but they're in spaceships. Yeah, nothing about that works or gels. And it just, it just throws stuff at you. Yeah, carry out.

It might sound more interesting than it is from like how it's being described. Like some of these things might sound like, oh, that's kind of interesting or like a fun. I'm sure that would be a fun image to look at. Trust me, it's not. No. It's not. It really is. Well, I mean, it was, I, there were some parts that were really funny to me.

Like when the fucking string quartet is, funny, yes. Funny. Yes. It's like, oh, they're actually just playing this music. But then if you think about it and you're watching the scene as it plays and how the music changes and is, is dramatically tuned to exactly what the character is, are doing. I'm like, wait, are the is the quartet in the room? They're doing the dramatic pause when she says that line. And then the guy dies and it's like, do, do, yeah, and then like, the single violin. They're all just like watching the scene. That's part of what is so

frustrating about it, right? It treats itself as if it, it has like the gravitas of like, you're watching the third Lord of the Rings right now, you know? Like, this is what you've been waiting for. These are the characters you're waiting to see wrap up and where's this going to go type energy that's bringing it but it doesn't match what you're actually being shown. Like all these characters, yeah, these sad strings are playing when characters are being taken out and it's like, I don't even, I don't even know who you are, you know, what, you just got your backstory five minutes ago. I can imagine what he thought that scene would have been.

I think that he filmed the string quartet, just had them pretend to play music, didn't have any idea what music would actually be in the scene until obviously post, you know, just get the composer like, okay, score it like normal, except. you know, just make sure that there's string instruments, obviously. There's obviously points, you can see them in the background, they're playing when the music has stopped, which is funny. But I think tonally, he probably had like a very different idea of what that might have looked like.

He might have thought, like, I don't know, like, just some sort of regular string quartet background music to a scene. And then the composer was like, no, this has to be dramatic. Or maybe he told the composer it had to be more dramatic or I don't know. There was clearly not a coherent. real idea of what it was going to look like by the end of it. And that's the way I feel about most of this movie is he kind of just threw things together and then hoped that it would work because he's got his routine.

He's got his formula. He's got his work system. And I think he just fucking threw these things together being like, oh, it'll be Star Wars by the end of it. And that's it. Yeah. I guess you just can work into that Netflix model quite well. Maybe you can deliver it on time under budget, maybe. They love them.

They clearly love them as much as they love Adam Sandler right now. Yeah. He's the new Adam Sandler for Netflix. And they're doing this. And I think we mentioned this in the last episode, the last part of Rebel Moon episode. Yeah. The fact that he's doing these dumb, like, oh, we're going to have a director's cut.

It's like, okay, wait, this was not a theatrical release. This was for Netflix. There was nothing to say that it had to be a PG-13 theatrical cut in the beginning other than you deciding

that you would have two cuts. So the theatrical cut is also a director's cut because you decided like there was nobody stopping you from doing anything. This is a marketing gimmick and people are fucking falling for it.

And even like I was doing a watch along for the part two. Someone left a comment like yeah. You know even with bad directors I'm just going to wait until the director's cut so I can see their real vision. I don't believe either of these films are really their real vision. I believe it's somewhere in between.

As in, I believe that the director's cut is more or less just an extended cut. Like, there's nothing. They weren't stopping him for making the movie he wanted. Netflix wasn't like, no, you can you turn it down? They wanted two different cuts because everybody went ape shit over the fucking Snyder cut thing. And that was a streaming thing. that got a bunch of numbers on H-Bow on MyEy-Rex. And so they looked at that.

They're like, oh, I guess fucking Zach Snyder has fans. We'll just watch the extended cut of whatever he makes. He's like, I'm a real artist and a real visionary. And then some people are also tricked into thinking like, oh, well, you know, the only reason it wasn't good is because it wasn't the extended cut. So much. And then do those people watch the extended cut and then realize it's also not good? because I fucking watched Batman v. Superman extended for the first time.

Oh, I've seen the extended. I was going to ask you about BDS. Why did you watch it? Why did you do that? Well, I've been doing my 2016 list and that when I do my 2015 and 2016, whatever I do my yearly lists, I just watch everything that's on the watch list. Unless I look at it and I go like, okay, I'm never going to watch this ever. Because sometimes, you know, I'm trying to also include like notable bad movies that were funny bad, right?

That could easily appear there I want to have some grasp of filmmaking in that year of notable titles that I feel that I feel like I would want to watch eventually anyway it's my excuse to watch it at that time

And that was definitely a 2016 Zykegeist movie It was one of the biggest movies of the year As far as like build up and hype It was fucking jerk off stuff Oh yeah The first two hours were hilarious The last hour was boring

And I went through a crisis I think the film goes through a crisis and itself at that moment I wound up hating Star Wars Yes yes I'll mention that later I was like this is you're responsible for all of these things Look at Rebel Moon right now This is Star Wars's fault

Every single one of these movies is a Star Wars movie Fuck all this shit I blame Snyder war I hate the culture Yeah I'm shocked you sat through that one I guess you do get nice moments of humor like the first two hours were hilarious yeah the last the entire hour long fight scene at the end was so boring oh yeah yes headache

and docing um just like this movie just like all of his movies for like the past 10 years have just been yeah just a string of this like headache nauseating like just kind of badly thought through yeah just string of references to something oh it's a bit of the Dark Night Returns. Oh, there's a bit of Star Wars in here, or there's a bit of evil dead or whatever. You're trying to, oh, it's just really not what I like about movies. Zach Snyder is better at attacking your senses than Gaspar, no way. Like, he's a real, he's real talented. He's like, yeah, he's like an unintentional French or two. Yeah, he's, definitely, he's definitely, only unintentionally though. Yeah. He's, uh, you know, he wants, he set out to

make the first headache type film and then he made many more. People loved it. My question is like is it's actually work that I, when part one came out, there was a bit more of like a zeitgeist discussion. You got like big YouTube channels like, yeah, new Star Wars is here guys, you know, this, this kind of stuff. I've seen nothing for part two. Just kind of more of a whimper type.

I saw Charlie reviewed it. I didn't watch his review because I hadn't seen the movie when the video came out, but his title was like, he just. keeps getting worse. I think referencing the same. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, the, yeah, the reviews are lower, the user scores are lower, less, less people rating it so far, but I mean, I think it's worse somehow. It's just, but the unintentional humor, right, going back to that, there's so much awful, like, diabolical acting in the movie. That's where a lot of the, the humor was coming from for me. A particular, like, stand-out.

moment of humor for me was that general character in his flashback scene where they're like showing his men getting like bombarded from orbit and there's just something about the way they like strung it together and blocked it where like he's he's like on his knees like at gunpoint and all of his men are kind of like in the in the distance and you just see this like orbital strike like just obliterate them and this huge like nuke goes off and it's just like there's something about the timing of it about like the reactions of everything and the melodrama of it. It's like, this is, this is hilarious. And then in my notes as well, during that whole sequence where it's going through the, the backstories one by one, I wrote down like, oh, uh, make that two backstories

in a row. And then like a few minutes later, oh, no, uh, make that four. And then the note after that is make that five. I think it would go into five, five backstories in a row, some of which we already knew. Oh yeah. It's like when you're watching an anime and then like 25 episodes in they're like, you know, we just got to do some flashback episodes. They're like, everybody sit down. We're going to go one by one every single character here. We're going to be like, and this is what I was doing the whole time. Remember who I did this? Yeah. And then you're just like, okay, wait, wait, wait, you have to look up on Wikipedia. Like, when do the flashback episodes stop? I've seen this. It's boring. It doesn't add to anything.

Zach Snyder fit that into part two of his film which correct me if I'm wrong but when part one came out they were acting as if it was going to only be two parts right that was the impression I guess they were impressed by the it must call good streaming numbers or something I mean yeah that first part

well because I mean it's got Zach Snyder fans and then it's got people who think it's probably Star Wars and don't even know that it's not right Even the title, I thought it was Star Wars. Yeah. I feel there is that subsect of people that like, they see the mech tanks in the trailers being dropped down from space.

There's a bit of action. That's like enough. Like, just put that on after a day of work and you don't really want to think. You just want to see something explode and remind you of Star Wars. And that's what a lot of Netflix is good for, I guess. But if I want to put on mindless entertainment, I'll watch the fucking Squid Game reality show. Give me something that's a little bit funnier. A little bit more stimulating.

Not fucking Rebel Moon. Well, as we said at the beginning, we're not really spoiled for choice right now, you know? As far as like shows and movies and stuff like the. Yeah. Bad time to release this in more ways than one. I just, there's so many characters in these movies. This whole sweet, this whole fellowship. They like try to act as if they're all different.

And they will feel like the exact same character. They will have like the same kind of motivations, the same way they carry themselves. They will speak like, oh, I'm sick of, I just want to be more than a weapon. Since that day, I've been a creature of revenge. And this kind of like really melodramatic over the top way of speaking all the time. But it's all the same like emotional note, all the same types of beat. Yeah. So repetitive.

But by the time you get to backstory four or five and it's like the same thing, I, then I realized that everything sucks and I'm. a weapon and I don't want to be this way but look at what I've been forced in all this kind of oh my gosh so uninteresting unimaginative over the top and just flat

I was playing the vine boom sand effect for a bunch of it I yeah somebody reminded me that I did that during the first one I was like oh yeah that's how I survived yeah and it was did you notice the weird he just couldn't he couldn't help himself in that first part it was like the one positive

I pointed out was like this Anthony Hopkins robot character. He had something going on there a little bit. And then what they do with him in this movie when they kind of bring him back with these deer horns. And he just, he just shoots him like a superhero. Like he has a cape and he does the superhero landing even. And he's like punching a bunch of people just like Superman. It's like, just let it go. I thought he was going to do more.

Yeah, I thought there was going to be more plans for it. Like he separated from the whole rest of the story. Like is that the extended cut? We just get to see him do whatever the fuck he was doing. Yeah. You just cut out another story. And that was another one of the only characters that had like a setup or a framing that was like, that's kind of interesting. Yeah, almost.

There's a nugget there. There's almost a nugget there. Little nugs. And in another alternate story, you could imagine this being like a key player in some kind of plot that goes somewhere or moves or, yeah, everything is static. All these characters are completely static. I don't think any of them really change. Like even the bad guy is just, hey, it's the bad guy from the first movie who didn't die actually, but he's back. Now they can fight.

They can do a lightsaber fight while falling. But they're not lightsaber. Cool. But also, let's also remind ourselves the way he got resurrected, I was like, I've seen this exact same scene in a Star Wars movie. Couldn't tell you which one. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the back to tanks. Yeah, you're right.

But it was like literally the same scene. Like, 1,000% the exact same scene. Oh, yeah, I didn't even think about that. Even to talk to him like strangling the henchman when he wakes up. Oh, that annoying trip, yeah. In this one, the fucking, the, the production looks so bad. Those tubes of light? I'm like, Jesus Christ, is this a fucking furries bedroom or something?

Like, what the hell is this? Oh, it's so cool, the tubes of light. Jesus Christ. Does that all the, like when the princess gets? shot by the main character and this again this kind of light effect comes out of the child I guess to indicate oh she's not actually dying or there's some kind of magical element that they don't really explain in the moment so she's not actually dead she's got magic so the main character doesn't have to kill a child even though that's the only thing that really gives her anything

interesting yeah editor's note keeping the vine boom sound effect I meant to put that on my phone Yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of, uh, really important sounding lines, you know. That's like how it's written in this way. Yeah, everything needs to sound important, but actually when you think about how it sits in the story isn't important at all. No, it's just implied significance. And that's it. Well, yeah, because like this empire, this, this enormous, what, galaxy wide empire is

beaten literally by like one tiny group of farmers. So it's ridiculous the way it's like displayed because they're being attacked by the empire. They're not fighting back in some way. Like their home is being destroyed. It's like, well, overgraint. Like that just you can't, you can't think about it because it just falls apart almost immediately. And I say, well, why should I think about it if like if you're not even going to indulge in the

story part of this? Yeah. It's it's, it's, it's fucking embarrassing. It's fucking embarrassing. It feels crappily low budget, which is odd. Because I thought Netflix gave them a shit ton of money or something. They seem to have a lot of faith in the film in the way that they market it. It's fucking shown up at UFC and like these fucking airport gigantic banners for Rebel Moon.

Like, holy shit. It's like a flagship property to them. But it looks like the cheapest fucking thing ever made. We're just going to fight in a barn again. Yeah. And even like, I, I just refused to believe it needed to look this bad. No. It didn't.

That was by choice. With the sets that were made with like the costumes and whatnot, they, you could have done, sure, might not have been great, but more than this. Because there really is something going on with, with the blocking, with the way they're using these sets with where characters are moving and all not moving. Just like these really static like action figure placement like is there's something rigid about it and like really unnatural and no one has any chemistry. It's just really awkward feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I hate it. I hate all of it. Um. The only, the only saving grace is just the funny shit. Again, I'm going to go back to that that quartet scene was so good. The way Carrie always screamed when he died. Ah! And slow-mo.

And then we got this slow-mo fucking, it was like the scene from Blonde or something where they're like, murderer. Murder! That's right. You traitor! There was that really, there was another funny moment where like

somebody put a bomb on one of the ships and the pilot just kind of like casually looks back and he's like, oh damn. And then blows that's right, yeah. That's what I mean about the British villains. I'm intentionally a comedian. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah.

Plenty hell. SpaghettiOs. Yeah. Oh, blimey. Yeah, dude. I've got to make an admission then. There were scenes in this where I did flick on to 1.25. Nice.

That's a, yeah, I'm thankful for that Netflix feature. In fact, I'd argue it's the only way to make the Rebel Moon dualogy even watchable. It's with that. It's a feature that they added? it's the only platform that you're legally allowed to view it on and that's the way they decided that people wanted to be able to see it so it's valid yeah and it kind of it kind of evens out anyway with all the like slow-mo and whatnot oh true yeah it's still a slow-mo film even in fast speed it's still a very slow movie in every way all right um anything else i have fucking

two out of ten. It was funny. Honestly, no. Yeah. I can't remember what I gave the first part, but this is, yeah, one out of ten. Half star. Just unwatchable garbage. It's funny to like talk about and make fun of. But this, yeah, this is embarrassing. Like, I don't know why anyone would give him money to make more of these after this. But I'm saying my responsibility. Yeah. Yeah, this is, I mean, it's not, it's just, it's just, it's just,

kind of like sad and just say, well, we've already had this discussion with part one. I'm sure whenever this next zombie thing or whatever pop culture reference thing he wants to do next will come out. It would just be a similar kind of conversation except each one gets slightly more scathing. And yeah, ever since BVS bringing that up, it probably has been that slow decline. Every single one of his films since that point has been that without much nuance in the discussion. It's just, yeah, what are we doing here? What are we doing? Challenger's directed by Luca Guadagnino. I think I think I'm learning. And written by, forget how to pronounce his name, Justin Kyritsky? I think his name is, the potion seller.

I'm glad you're saying it. Yeah. Everybody look up the potion seller meme. He made, he wrote a movie and it's great. He wrote a Luca film. Yeah, what is it? Yeah, what is it? Give the full context for that because I've seen a little bit here and there, but what is that about? The potion seller meme or it's a yeah, the potion seller meme, but then he's, but what's the link is what I'm saying like to writing this film? It's the same guy. The guy that made the potion seller meme wrote the movie. So just a random coincidence. Because there's like nothing. It's not really a coincidence because he's a he's like a talented funny guy well it's just because I look at his um I'm D B yeah no this this is his first like feature right okay which is crazy he's actually

married to a Celine's song also uh past lives and they both made love triangle movies so we have to assume there's a third person in their relationship hmm interesting and who it is may surprise you. We got Trent and Atticus on the fucking score. Didn't even know that until the end credits started playing, honestly. Oh, really? You couldn't tell. And I think there's one more person credited. Well, yeah, it was such a different genre for them to tackle. There's like house beats. It's so high energy. Yeah, it was using kind of like the palette of sounds they often use. But yeah, the way it was used in the film, I felt was like, oh, this is a different way to use their type of music. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I like, yeah. That's what I love.

about Luca films. When I saw I Am Love, which was the first one that really blew me away, like the end sequence of that film, I was like, wow, the way that you're using music for this scene is like a new emotion. Like I'm experiencing something new watching this in the context of what's happening with the characters and the buildup and how it's shot and how the music is. And the choice of what tone the music should be, it's never, obviously, you know, the great example would be fucking Rebel Moon where it's like the most obvious fucking music

you could possibly pick and you're just doing it to manipulate a certain emotion in a way that's on the checklist in a way that has been proven to be done for various checklist movies before but it's experimenting

and it's trying new things and you can actually have like a heated dramatic conversation between two characters and play a fucking house beat over it and it still fucking works and the pumped up energy nature of it not only works emotionally but then it fits into the themes of like how you know the the tennis game itself is like the love relationships and the them competing over love and and the the energy that

they display towards each other like it works in multiple layers but it still works dramatically it's a super well-made film I loved it I love this movie a lot I um I might do a spoiler warning because I'm bad about jumping around watch the movie everybody

but definitely see the damn movie because it was definitely wasn't what I was expecting actually and I'll mention that first because after seeing it and like really enjoying myself had a few conversations with people and I don't know if there was like a

particularly bad like UK trailer or something But a trend I was seeing is that people saying like, this film, that film looks bad. What do you mean? It was good. And then I went and watched the UK trailer and it's like, it is awful. It makes the film look like garbage. It looks like a really like one of the mill like boring sports movie.

All of the focus, not that surprisingly is on Zendaya because she's like the biggest name in the film is what they're using to try and sell it. But it spoils like major sections of the movie. Oh, yeah. surprises to me that like, oh, wow. Like, you just showed that in the trailer? I was caught off guard by the injury, but they showed it in the trailer. Exactly, yeah. Exactly, yeah, that was straight up in the trailer.

Like, I'm just, I met, note to everybody who cares about movies. If there's a movie you know you're going to see anyway, if you know, if you can see, if let's say you're in a movie theater and they start playing a trailer for something you don't want to see, either go to the bathroom or do what I do if I'm stuck in that situation. Close your eyes and just hum lightly to yourself. It actually fucking works. don't give a shit about whether or not people think you're crazy. It's for you.

Don't give a shit about them. Okay? You won't see the trailer. You'll be a better person from it. So I'm glad I didn't watch this trailer because I watched it afterwards and I was like, holy, well, yeah. I'm glad I didn't have any of that information before going into it because the dramatic effect of experiencing it in the order that the writer wrote the film in, thur, worked really well.

And it was edited in the way, yeah. Yeah, the intention of it. of it is so clearly to kind of catch you off guard in that moment and it's a lingering question over the movie. It's like because it's jumping between these different time periods and you see in the later sections that Zendaya isn't playing anymore and she's a big time player and the flashbacks who you're like, well, what's what happened there? There's clearly something to address there and they do.

But yes, it's a shocking idea to spoil that in a trailer and I'm sure that wasn't directors or anyone. Yeah, of course. Any of the creative's choices. This is pure just... I think it was MGM that made the trailer. Yeah, that's not surprising. Yeah.

But I was kind of surprised that this was evoking whiplash for me. Kind of what you're saying about how the setting and how they explore the relationships, like in Whiplash, for the example, with the drummer and like the visuals of drumming and how everything like, the aesthetics of it, the way you can edit around that, the way you can, yeah, digestically, like, put music into the score. edit around it. It's also true to, you know, the sportsmanship of tennis and the competition of tennis and the kind of, it's a bug bear of mind when sports movies, when the action is happening when they're playing the sports, there is like this energy and there's like, yeah,

they're employing this energetic way of shooting the action, but then when it's just characters talking or exposition, it's like flat and it doesn't match the energy, whereas this film, like, the dialogue scenes are just as exciting to me. They're just as thoughtful, just as creative, and it drives it along in a way that, yeah, it's, the resolution of it almost isn't even about the tennis in the end, and it's more about this, yeah, this three-way kind of warped relationship that brings up these questions of, yeah, competition, masculinity.

That seemed to be the focus to me was this, this kind of warped dynamic between these two guys, where it's like there's something between them that's deeper than they're letting on and it's being teased out at certain points and just the journey of watching the start point of them being kind of hating each other or at least having this tension between them and jumping between these flashbacks where they were best buds they grew up together one of them taught the other one out of jerk off they're like that level of close and yeah the way it's jumping around revealing new dynamics, changing dynamics as it goes along, and like Whiplash building up to this

like huge crescendo setpiece ending that kind of concludes it all and wraps up all of these more confusing threads or things that felt a bit more muddled to me as the story was unfolding as far as like structure is concerned because it does it does dart around a lot as far as like one minute, it's 13 years later than it's a week ago, then it's eight years later, but previous and yeah it does jump around a lot in the structure and it takes a while to for that to pay off as far as like oh that's that's kind of why you're delving in there that's paying off now on yeah the way this comes together at the end is really satisfying and uh subverts you in a way that you weren't necessarily expecting um that that conclusion is is like so so fantastic the way that builds up i think that the time jumping is you know it makes the film itself, like the perspective of you watching the film. It really just feels like the back and forth is to try and tie into the nature of like a tennis game. You know, the back and forth, like, you might as well have had that sound effect play every time it cuts back. Maybe it did. Maybe I

didn't know. But that does feel like a very intentional, like, way to present the film. And also, it was really clever because of, you know, the fact that they did jump back and forth. they were able to really effectively and properly ideally utilize the concept of revealing information in the correct order. Yeah. There's information that happens, you know, in the past sections that make more sense to reveal later than some of the future sections. And so in that sense, it's just, it's really well put together. And I also, you know, even with it jumping around so much, I was never confused about what was going on. or like what time it was.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was about to compliment. And the actor's like they're, they're, it's not like they put a bunch of old age makeup on them or anything. So they don't look that different, but the way that the story is told and the way that you can see their dynamics, there are title cards too. But, you know, they even use the weather as a way to, to signify what period in time it is.

They're like, oh, there's a big storm before the, final match, etc. Yeah, costume design, hair. There was a, there was a good one of those

that I've noted down, actually, where they emphasized the like different dynamic of the relationship in that point of time. I think it was one of the flashbacks to the night before,

or at least like a week before or somewhere close, where the brown-haired fella, he's like clicking his fingers and he can't remember the name of their child they have together. Like, pauses for a second, clicks his fingers,

brings up, oh, yeah, Lily, grow up. And that just felt like a nice, dietic way to communicate that without, you know, screeching everything to a halt and like really over-explaining. It just felt like a natural. And I feel like this is one of these skills as a director is these like really believable relationships and just way of communicating and this sexual tension. That's like a huge part of it. And yeah, these believable character dynamics and the surprising amount of depth. they're able to squeeze into that the breakneck two hours and you feel like you get a real

good like impression of these three characters and pretty expansive like looks into the way their the psychology works and the way they think about each other and the way they tick and especially man the way the way it builds up to that you know it's like a every sports movie there's these two guys that used to get on they don't anymore they're going against each other in a tennis match and depending on who wins, they're like high stakes. But the way they set the stakes and make you think, oh yeah, like, he doesn't know about the cheating. So in that awesome sauna scene where they're like mind fucking each other trying to figure out where they stand with each other and set these like bombs and traps and yeah, he thinks he's

getting won over bringing up the affair, then you find out you already know about the fair and It's more about the throwing the game thing and the, oh, the way that's revealed with him communicating the tick as the way to reveal that, yeah, I'm throwing the game. Even though I'm losing, I am winning now. And the way that just robs all the like energy from the other character for a second and that seeing that turmoil, awesome performances. Those three characters, there's so much going on there. It's so exciting and unpredictable.

The buildup is super satisfying and the way that ideas are reincorporated and set up in ways. Like I, I, when I was watching that like, oh, you know, you do this tick sort of thing, you don't have to tell me, you can just tell me. I didn't think immediately when I watched that, like, oh yeah, that's going to be reincorporated later. Oh, that's obvious. Exactly. But then just as it was coming up to it, I was like, ooh, I know it's going to happen. I was so excited. I was like, I hope they do this.

And they did it. It's very satisfying. It's a very, um, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's a satisfying buildup and, and, and, and, watching things get to these high energy levels. And then just obviously, like, with the music complimenting that so well. And the filming style, because much like the energy of the music and the energy of the characters and the drama, crescendos are, the course of the film. The filming style, it really doesn't, it really doesn't play its cards

too early. It's very much more reserved in terms of how scenes are shot, in terms of how scenes are edited in the first chunk of the film, the first 15 minutes. I'm like, you know, I was actually watching the first bit of the film being like, hey, is this going to be like kind of like a really basic bitch films Luca film? Like, what's going on here? Like some of the cuts were little too quick. Like, it didn't feel as, you know,

like purposeful in framing. And I wasn't seeing as many of these, like, oh, lovely shots that I'm used to seeing in his films. And I'm like, well, I guess, I don't know,

maybe he just, this is one of his studio projects. This is one where he just has too much money. But then as the film went on, I was like, okay, wait, no,

it's actually a great choice that they were so reserved near the beginning of the film because then it provides the contrast of how things are shot later. And it does build up not only just in the dialogue scenes, you know, where I started to notice, like, oh, damn, that really low angle with Zendaya, like, really communicates a lot with how the character is feeling in her face. And then the tennis matches especially, the first time we see a tennis match, I believe, from my memory, it's almost, it's super static, just fixed position camera in a way that it's, it's like if you were flipping back and forth between monitors, like doing a sports broadcast or something. almost. Yeah, yeah. Just like two fixed camera positions, and that's pretty much it. And then

the scene after that, you get a bit more fluidity to the movement, and it starts to become shot almost like a bit more normal of a scene. The scene after that, it's just focused purely on Zendaya, getting closer and closer and closer. You don't even see the other character. She's shooting against. The ball's like going past the camera, lots of great use of depth. And then the final scenes of how they decide to shoot a tennis match that we see in the film, like they're getting so much crazier and crazier and crazier in terms of how they shoot the scene that I wasn't sure that they'd be able to one up it. And there were some ideas of like, you know, when I'm thinking in my head like, oh,

could they even do this? Like, might they try something like this? The CG bowl. A lot of what they wind up pulling off. you'd think would just look like shit if anybody else tried it. And it's super ambitious and I can't believe that they actually pulled it off and it looked fantastic. So, you know, some of the POV shots of the actual players, you know, he's like, you can see him hit the racket like, and the sound design like, yeah. And then the huge, huge moment of when the camera becomes the ball.

Yeah, like Big Lebowski ball and bull style. jumping around. And I'm like, they're doing it. They're doing it and it looks fucking awesome. I was literally have it in the music and everything. I was literally just saying to myself in the theater like, oh, fuck yes. Yeah. Like, I was so excited. I'd love to see a breakdown of, um, of whatever, you know, special effects company handled that shot because, uh, man, it's like just right. Because there's so much motion obviously from the perspective of the ball where you don't really get a second to like criticize the imagery or the fidelity of it. because there is so much motion, but it still looks good.

You're not like lost in what's going on. The action is so clear. Everything's so well choreographed and so well shot. And man, yeah, it does just, it just singes into your brain. There are so many great images in the film, so many great shots. And just using that court, that like restrictive space of that like rectangle and what they get out of that, you know, breaking the 180 degree rule, using these angles, getting like these close up shots of like Zendaya's shadow, like moving as her. legs and just like, these sensitive, thoughtful touches.

It's, yeah. And there's this kind of like visual tension you're talking about. But yeah, it does escalate as it goes just like the match, just like the relationship with the characters. Yeah, that side of it is brilliant. Mm-hmm. Like, he, that, that's what fucking cinema is, is approaching something in a way where you think, okay, how can I shoot this in a way that is meaningful and works cinematically?

Any other film, you know, like a director for hire, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, like 99.9% of directors, you ask them, you give them the same script and you have like six different tennis matches. They're not going to go crazy with how they shoot it. They're not, they're not going to do such an incredible contrast of all the different ways that you could possibly shoot a scene and layer it and order it in a way that is the most emotionally effective to be. a crescendo along with the emotions in the film. Like just most people aren't gonna fucking do that. They're not gonna have the idea to do that. They're not gonna have the ambition to do that. You know, we were just talking about fucking Rebel Moon part two.

They didn't do anything crazy. Like we see the barn so many times. If you just shot every fight scene differently, it would be interesting, right? Like John Wick 4, they were like, okay, we're gonna do fucking Hotline Miami top down. Like that's crazy, right? That's cool.

Like shoot it differently. If you know that especially, a lot of what would be happening visually would would be more of the same otherwise then I think there is some sort of you know almost obligation to try and approach a scene in a different way just to have a new scene instead of like you're watching the same scene visually it's a complete they're completely different scenes exact same setting a lot of the exact same movements you know debatably but he manages to capture it in a unique way every time that at every time that every single time you're just you're seeing something new and it's exciting and it's uh yeah it's

incredible i really really love luca and it's crazy that he made a fucking zendaya movie and i hope it makes money a zendaya tennis movie yeah what the fuck potion seller sexy zendaya tennis movie we'd i don't think we talked about bones and all which was his previous movie right um which i enjoyed for the most part but like max This was this felt like such a step up to me. Oh yeah. Like such an imprary but like I'm not I'm not probably going to revisit. It might even bump down the buttons and all things.

It had some okay characters, some good scenes, some good visuals. It's not sticking with me. Well, didn't it like excite me or like inspire me in the same way this movie is where it's like, yeah, this is more kind of the suspirio Luca we're getting right now. This is showing me something intense, something new. Yeah, something challenging. And also every single one of his movies are. are entirely different.

I love that. He's not just doing the same thing over and over. Like every single one of his films have completely different approaches and challenges. I think that's a real skill to, yeah, show off that range. Yeah. Because man, we haven't talked much about the dialogue, but there is a lot of awesome dialogue in this movie. I love that line where they address the kind of sexuality of the movie with the, are we talking about tennis? I feel like that's a line like everyone is thinking for a lot of these like,

You know, they're like eating churros in each other's faces like three inches from each other. It's like there's this real charged like sexual tension and down to the costumes to the like the sweatiness, the emphasis on the muscles and everything. There's yeah, there is and not like showing like in any like detail really like a sex scene. All the actual sex is implied, which I thought was also. It's like almost more more sexual and more tension without showing that like implying all of it and leaving that. It's kind of funny that they set up that entire first scene and especially with that being like part of the marketing too. I didn't watch the trailer but I knew that that image existed of like, ooh, they're going to have a threesome or something. And it's really funny that they set that up so

early on and kind of just like blue ball the audience. Like right when things start getting like, oh, it's getting fucking steamy. Is it? Am I watching like a, am I watching a sex movie, Luca? And then they're like, no. But, but it's. sets the tone, which is kind of great. I think that's one of the best scenes in the movie. That kissing scene went in that hotel room. Like, you learn so much about those two characters, the two male tennis players, especially in that scene.

You get, yeah, the backstory where they talk about their upbringing together and going to the private schools that they're living in, getting that backstory and then talking about, yeah, the jerking off story. sitting on the bed with them and it ending the way it does with them being the ones like making out and her just kind of like watching it's like well I love that this the stage of that sets in and in of itself and like the implications of that and what they don't even address about like parts of that this is this is so interesting like what is bringing up about these kind of like masculine relationships and they only felt I guess like safe to do something like that

with this like woman in the middle and they're like simultaneously fighting over this woman and and her level of control too and the way she utilizes that and obviously like gets off on it and the ego is like attached to yeah the winning and the losing aspect but they're also like playing doubles at the time and there is yeah it's just such an interesting dynamic and especially like where they take it like revealing you have more of a sympathetic angle when he's like living out of his car and saying about you can barely pay for his hotel one or because you don't know the full context and when you kind of learn more about him and how there's almost like an aesthetic he's putting on he's like he's past 30 and he's still like pretending he's the

struggling artist type thing the struggling sports player the yeah it's just it's just playing the sport to survive type thing when it's there's that line later on with zendaya says uh when they're talking about how like the what level of pieces of shit they are and she says someone like hey I'm just stopping by this is where you live it's like brutal like tense moment they have and which all resonates with a use of the kind of slow-mo we normally complain about but it was used intentionally which I thought was interesting because there's also like slow-mo cameras being used as well high frame rate cameras intentionally but then in this one scene to yeah to highlight this

moment they use this different style of slow motion. Yeah. To create a different effect, which I thought was really interesting. And I don't think I've really seen that before. Yeah, I was actually kind of caught off guard. I'm like, oh, wow. This doesn't have to look bad. Yeah.

Because at first I thought, oh, did they not film this in slow mo then? But then it's like, it keeps going. It's like, oh shit, this is intentional. Yeah, yeah. No, it's like, it's a choice. It's a choice. Yeah. Which is really cool.

Like, he's, he's a, he's one of the most impressive directors. Mm. working today. Like he's just so confident about what he's able to show and he takes risks. Because he's creating, he's creating new things. Not a lot of people are doing that. Even a lot of other great directors that we see,

you know, some of the biggest names in the fucking industry, they're creating a lot of the same things they've already done. We're not seeing anything new. We're seeing something great, right? With a lot of, a lot of these big name directors. But Luca is constantly pushing,

what he can show and what he can communicate in a way that just like not many other people are which is really cool I hope he makes a million more movies yeah I'm glad people are enjoying it I'm glad how many broken rackets were in the movie so that was one of my takeaways I've been to Wimbledon and that like happens a lot

like people getting angry remember this German player that I saw was like he smashed a few of his rackets and yeah yeah I don't have many complaints about the film. There are some lines where when I heard them, I was like a little like unsure, but in the greater context of the film,

I think I'm of the impression that, that like, they work for this film. And it's not exactly, you know, like a super... It's not like the most grounded approach to a story. There is kind of a heightened sense of reality to this and a heightened sense of... Oh, it definitely feels heightened and kind of exaggerated. Yeah, the characters and their dynamics and the sexuality. Things are a little just pushing the boundaries of what would happen in real life or what someone would say.

And in that sense, I feel like, you know, if this exact same script was given to a different director, it just would not have worked. Not to shit on the script. It's a good script. Justin potion seller it's a good script for sure but damn I'm super happy that Luca worked with it

elevated by the direction yeah and now I guess he's got another couple projects I think he's working with Luca again I heard but I'll have to look that up awesome yeah so I'm glad that they like each other and I'm glad that they Luca feels that he is able to get something real meaty

out of his writing Well, yeah, if we get more films like this, I'm very much for it. Yeah, pleasantly surprised. I, but do you think the product placement? I saw a few conversations about this kind of stuff. I think if any fucking movie is going to have product placement, it's going to be a fucking sports movie, right? That's the thing, right?

Because all the rackets have, like, logos on, you know, the trainers are everywhere, the logos on socks. Yeah, there's no sport that exists without, brands like they're fucking everywhere you can't have a sports movie without product like it's literally not but it would be weirder if they didn't have product placements in this film it would feel it would feel bizarre and unnatural I'd be like this is not a sports even like a movie a more even like a scene that doesn't have any sport sports action going on like the Duncan like breakfast bagel scene again it didn't distract me beyond a Like, well, yeah, it was just someone eating breakfast.

Duncan does exist, I guess. And it's, the scene isn't like uncharted where it's like, we're going to Papa Johns now. Let's stop the movie. And hello everybody. Let's Papa Johns. It was like the character, he's hungry because he's living in his car. It's, you know, enforcing the character. There's more going on than just the product placement, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. If someone's drinking a Pepsi or a Coke or whatever, it fits. I was never off put it by it at all. Yeah. Like it does it work. in the movie. It doesn't need to feel like a distraction from what's happening in the film. Like, I just, I feel like there's, there's a symbiosis between showing brands and it also

being a fucking sports movie. Like, these people are walking brands. Their characters are brands, right? So maybe it could have been handled in a way that it would have upset me, but I just, yeah, I did not feel upset. by it at all. Yeah, completely agree. Yeah. I got a shout of the editing too.

Incredible editing. Just the timing of the cuts in here. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully this hasn't released too early in the year to be forgotten when it comes to that conversation come wrap up. It also is the multiple timeline thing, so it might get some attention. Because that's all that people seem to think editing is

is if when you have different timelines splicing between each other. True. Yeah, I mean, that's the Oscars. So hopefully, yeah, I hope it becomes an Oscar movie. I hope that this gets recognized at the Oscars. I do too. Yeah, a lot of just technical skill just being shown off in a way that's like this, this is so exciting.

This is so different. The buildup. I just keep bringing it up, but like that. These last like 20 minutes are just wonderful. It's such an expressive, like, tense, yeah, charged buildup to that end. And it's just the way everything is just pay off, pay off, pay off, pay off, pay off. All that thing you thought, like, didn't have that much point earlier. No, it was there for a reason.

This is all, just trust me. This is all going to come together. And it's like, oh, so satisfying. And it ends at the perfect moment. It's not like, it's nothing I'd cut out or trim out. Yeah. I thought this was wonderful. Yeah, it did not feel fucking slow at all. It's over two hours, two hours of 11 minutes.

Super well-paced. Would love to watch it again. Glad that you enjoyed it and I'm glad that you were able to see it. Glad that it didn't have some sort of dumb botched UK release or something. Yeah, yes. It's pretty widely released here. Did you catch it in IMAX? Yeah. I went out of my way to see it in. an iMacs what was that like i don't think it was playing in my local one uh well it wasn't as like

crazy as like oppenheimer imax or anything no um i would have to see like a side-by-side comparison i guess of you know if if the framing was that or sorry the aspect ratio was like that different in the regular theatrical release but i will say that i did definitely get i did did definitely get something extra out of the experience just from having like the big screen and then like the big sound because the sound was so fucking important in that movie and just the the just being you know lovingly bombarded by the the soundtrack and everything just the mixing was great by the there's so much music and it's so loud and unlike a christopher nolan film or many movies that exist, especially iMacs movies. Unlike those, it was actually properly mixed.

And I could hear the characters and it like, it never felt like there was something wrong with it. So I'm glad that I saw it with like the optimal screen and sound. And it was also like I felt obligated to do it because I was like, why the fuck is this playing in IMAX? It's really random. Yeah. But I'm glad it did. And I'm glad that there seems to be like some level of faith in this movie and the project. I guess Zendaya would be the biggest reason for the studios to have an amount of faith. But she worked well for the role and I hope more people see it. I wonder how it's doing box office wise.

I'm giving this one a 9 out of 10. I fucking loved it. This is cinema. This is cinema. I'm just slightly blow you for now. This is like a high 8 out of 10 from you. four star definitely with a like uh could definitely go up on rewatch too uh when i think about like any issues i had i'm sure those would evaporate on rewatch because it was more just like

yeah early on we're jumping around where's this going what's this leading to but it does completely pay off with what it's building up what it's leading to and then so um so yeah big ups from me Let's see. I'm just looking up the box office numbers. Looks like it's at like 50 million now? That's on a 55 million dollar budget too. Yeah, I'm seeing about 52 million as of sixth of me. Yeah. And it's still got some longevity to it, apparently. Like there's still people seeing it. Like it's not dead in the water.

So yeah, I didn't surprise. Zendaya is kind of a big deal. Especially like after D and everything. I don't know. That is quite, I don't know, the budget there, 55 million. I'm glad they gave it to him. I don't know if they're going to see 150 million back on this to see the green they want. Yeah, I mean, I hope it makes profit. And, you know, if it gets Oscar buzz, there will be that longevity to it.

I'm hoping there's a 4K Blu-ray for it. I don't know if they've announced one, but I would totally buy it. Yeah, if it's in IMAX, you'd think. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, what a treat. What a treat!

All right. Magnolia is a film directed by Paul Thomas Anderson. Maybe the second best Paul Anderson working in the business. Right behind WS. This is a film that I watched once when I was younger. And there are parts of it that really stuck with me.

And parts of it that at a young age, I remember noting things about like the filmmaking itself that really stuck out to me. I think it might be one of my earliest memories of me, thinking about a oneer or like noticing a oneer and kind of appreciating just the coordination that would necessarily have to exist to like pull off a shot without making any any breaks in the cuts. I don't know what age I watched it first, but this came out in 1999, crazy year for movies. And so I guess I was like in theaters I was probably like eight years.

old or something, but I don't think I watched it when I was eight. I think I watched it when I was like 13 or something. Yeah, I would have been a teenager. And I recommended it for the podcast. And we revisited it. We watched it fresh, fresh, new and exciting. It was like experiencing it new again, especially with the context of like, I guess who a lot of these actors are.

I didn't really know at the time. It wasn't as familiar. Also being more familiar with PTA's style and being able to absorb a bit more about the, like, dynamics of the characters and exactly what was going on. And I would say it still holds up. I would say it's pretty great. How do I describe this movie in terms of its plot?

It's like an interweaved, intertangled web of characters. The Strands type film. Yeah, it's like if crash was a good movie. It's like if 2005 crash. The concept of crash was actually fleshed out. Yeah, basically. And so you have each of these characters struggling in different ways that are connected in ways

and are experiencing similar similarly themed struggles. And each of these characters is just so fleshed out and interesting. And even though there's a lot going on, and even though it's over three hours long, there's not a single one of their stories that just feels like boring or like, Like, oh, this shouldn't exist in the movie. What did you think? I'll let you talk about it.

Yeah, interesting. Because, yeah, I had a similar experience from like a different angle with this film. We had only seen it the once. I remember kind of being overwhelmed by it at the time, but also finding it to be extremely memorable in ways. Like the, starting with the opening, especially something to do with that conundrum with the the suicide attempt that becomes a homicide at the start of this movie to illustrate this causation thing that it's going for. It's one of the most memorable openings to a movie just ever to me.

Something about that is like really stuck with me and has illustrated quite a good way for a movie as big and kind of bloated and ambitious as Magnolia with that, yeah, three hour, like five minute runtime. you need some cohesive glue quickly to establish kind of what we're going for. Because yeah, this is a big like bumbling nine main character type story. Yeah, you need to set the scene with something that can keep this together. And I feel like that that intro with these three little vignettes is such a like poignant, clever way to get that side moving and kind of quell those fears you might have with the structure, with the

time. But that's kind of for me where I do get more hung up where there is so much about this film I love and I feel like there probably is a, I don't know, a let there be blood or Boogie Knights tier film in there somewhere for me. I think this film needs a little bit of pruning personally with some of these characters because the ones that work, they really work. Is there like a particular story? Yes, actually, I, because as you was kind of joking with like, how do I even describe this movie?

I had to like note down these characters and like color code them and like figure out like, what is it about this that isn't really jelling for me? So I kind of, I bought it down into nine main characters, which is already crazy just to say in and of itself like, yeah. How often does that work? The answer is very, very rarely. And that's part of what is interesting and I'm glad you recommended this movie for this because, yeah, we did crash semi-refer.

recently and these there is something that draws a lot of directors about these big like overlapping stories that are loosely connected but then not they're like vignette stories that converge at a certain point it's like big and it's grand and it's trying to do a lot and they often seem to fall into these similar kind of pitfalls that sometimes make me question if the ambition is needed when perhaps you'd have a tighter better movie if if you would just prune it a little bit and take some of that ambition, at least reel it back somewhat. But going to these nine characters, right? So you got Tom Cruise, this like Manosphere, grifter, who personally I think is the best

character in the movie, the most interesting, probably my favorite performance. Ahead of its time in a way. Not to say that that didn't exist at the year. Uh-huh. Because it's kind of mocking at the time. It was like the pickup artistry, like people releasing books. There was that kind of trend, which is now of course like morphed into the- Andrew Tate now.

Andrew Tate, the manosphere, all this kind of nonsense, which is saying... More things change, the more things... ...the more things... Yeah, so for this to come out in 99 and that part was like, oh, this is awesome, like, how true of what they're doing with this character and like... Not just kind of bring it up to make fun of it, but kind of explore like, why is this man the way he is? Why is he putting on this facade?

And that's kind of like... Yeah, as you alluded, a lot of the characters... have some kind of turmoil or some strife in their life that they haven't come to terms with or, you know, gotten over or something like this. And that's kind of one of the main strings that attaches them. But yeah, so nine characters, Tom Cruise, his dying dad, the dying dad's wife, Julianne Moore, like the trophy wife character. And then the dying dad's carer played by Philip Seymour Hoffman. That's like one kind of group of characters that are linked in a story going on.

Then you have the kid genius game show little boy, I guess juxtapose against the William H. Macy game show boy from decades ago who was that equivalent character then and was like known for being a kid genius. But now he's like washed up and he's yeah, he can't pay rent and he's like. Early bloomer. He has a lot of like, yeah, exactly, a lot of issues going on there. So there's that little pocket of characters. And then the other pocket, which is where the one I'm just not into as much, where you have the drug addict prostitute who is the daughter of the game show host, who is dying of bone cancer and I guess we're in full spoilers for this.

Spoilers. His thing is the kind of molestation sort of angle with him. And then the prostitute and this policeman character played by John C. Riley, who have their thing going on. So Tom Cruise, his dad, Julianne Moore, Phillips Seymour Hoffman and William H. Macy, adore all of those. I think all of those are pretty much perfect for me. It's the other characters I'm not as sold on. Within, it's not even that they're bad necessarily or that it's, it pulls it down too much. It's just so big, so bloated.

I feel like it does hurt some of the pace. I'm like... It's the amount of time they dedicate to it. Yeah, there are scenes where you're getting a little glimpse of this kid genius character or this policeman. It's like, yeah, this is kind of interesting, but man, what's going on over there with Julianne Moore or William H. Macy is just so much more intriguing or exciting to me. And these other ones don't really match, especially when these two older characters, the dying dad character, Tom Cruise's dad, and the game show older man, they're both. both they're both kind of similar characters and they're supposed to echo each other. They're both at death's door. One is bedridden and like on morphine and can barely do anything.

And the other one has like a bone cancer. He's still lucid and it's like a different way of confronting death, I suppose. And that's what makes the two of their stories like valid on their own. But to me it felt more like, I don't know, these kind of ideas are being explored already from one of these perspectives and really into the one that's happening around Tom Cruise, but then when we're revisiting that same kind of idea with the game show host dying and that, that just feels like we've really visited these sort of emotions, the whole molestation thing doesn't have the punch in the same way to me that that Tom Cruise, him coming to visit his dad and that dynamic going on there and Julia Moore and her realizations about

herself. That to me is just so much more gripping, so much more focused. And the The only reason I wouldn't like completely cull the whole like game show thing is I really love that William H. Macy character. I think that that makes the inclusion of the other kid genius character kind of worth it to me for what they explore there. Yeah. But just like just this way I've had to lay all this out is like so like complicated and so confusing. And I'm like thinking, well, perhaps if it was a film where the main focus was Tom Cruise, his dad, Julianne Moore, Philip Seymour Hoffman's character got maybe more development because he's he's more of like an audience sort of standing character and there's like dialogue that

here's that scene where he's talking about like this is the part in the movie where you help me and this kind of stuff. He doesn't get too much development. Maybe I would have liked to have seen his character get fleshed out and maybe trim some of the other stuff that wasn't working as much for me. But yeah, that's what's confusing and complicated about this is because I still I still do like this. I like where it goes. I I think some of the, when the frogs start raining, and everyone gets that like metaphorical and physical slap to the face, like realization, like the William H. Macy, he's like climbing the ladder. He's like, he needs that moment of realization of like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing with your life?

He's got this obsession with like braces because he's in love with this waiter, this barry frequency and there's something really sad about it. Yeah, there is more of a, it's not quite as satisfying as like a challenge is where it like crescendo to this big like moment where it feels like, oh, this structure, the sporadic structure is making sense the way it's coming together. You get that a little bit here, but I just couldn't help but think like, I do like this, but I would love this if some of it wasn't here. It reminds me of like what you were saying about Boas Afraid, another big three hour epic type, interesting, weird. experiment. But I think you wanted that a bit trimmed as well for what it was playing with and could see where it was going, but there were just points where it just wasn't connecting with you. And that's kind of what I was having here. Yeah, I don't think that there's a single character that I wouldn't want in this film,

but I do agree that it does feel like a bit disproportionate in terms of which characters are given more screen time and more weight and more opportunity to explore themselves. And yeah, John C. Riley's character, it does get a bit, like, kind of repetitive for what he's experiencing. Yeah. But yeah, there's no character that I would just remove their story entirely or anything. Mm-hmm. It'd be hard to. It would be very difficult to, with the way it's written anyway, you know? It's, it is ambitious, I'll give it that.

This, yeah, it's a really interesting film because this is his third movie. And I still haven't seen Hard Eight. No, me neither. We saw Boogie Nights. We talked about it on the podcast. Absolutely loved that. Yeah. I would say Boogie Nights is maybe equally as ambitious, but just kind of works together as a whole piece better.

Yeah, I prefer it. Yeah. I think it works a lot better as a whole piece. There is quite a good, I didn't manage to finish it. I watched 30, 40 minutes of it. It's like a behind the scenes, Magnolia making of a long documentary on YouTube. Yeah, well, they were talking about this. like process and PTA at one point is like yeah after the success of boogie nights I just wanted to

jump into making a movie immediately so the you know the expectations didn't get too high and that I just had to do it and I couldn't just sit um so considering that and uh he had some story about staying in like William H Macy's cabin for like weeks and just writing this movie in like a weird haze while he was afraid of a snake. That's kind of funny. Yeah, he's like an interesting guy in the way, just an excellent writer too. Like I love all the ideas he's playing with here. I think these characters are really interesting and I mean, after I finished the film and

I was feeling this way about the pacing and whatnot, I was looking through like the trivia and IMDB and I saw one that stood out in an interview with Mark Moron in January of 2015 PTA was asked if he if he had the opportunity to recut the film, he replied, I'd slice that thing down. It's way too fucking long. It's unmerciful how long it is he added that maybe a few trajectories in the film's plot lines could have been eliminated. Make a director's cut. Release the Snyder cut.

Except this time it'll be shorter. The inverse Snyder and yeah, make it shorter. Yeah, why not? Oh, that'd be awesome. I'd be down with that. There's like four different cuts of Blade Runner. There's like three different cuts of... Blade Runner, yeah.

Apocalypse and hours a few. Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to remember the title of it. Apocalypse. But yeah, I don't think that this has as much of a like huge cultural knowledge of this movie existing as those two.

It has a lot of ratings on IMDB though. So there's a good chunk of people that love it. It was nominated for a few Oscars. I think Tom Cruise got a nomination. None of them won. But it's one of those things where it's like, you know, I'm glad that it got recognized screenplay and original song. And wasn't John C. Riley the only one to get a lead actor or the Oscars or whatever,

like a nod, everyone else was supporting according to them, which I thought was interesting. Because we had this conversation for Crash. He didn't get a nomination for this. Oh, okay. There were only three nominations. John C. Riley was not in it. Oh yeah. I must be confused with a different award ceremony or something. No. Yeah, but he does, you know, I think it's literally when you're determining, at least for the Academy Awards, when you're determining which one is lead versus supporting. I think it's literally just based on screen time. And so John C. Riley would inherently be the lead of the film because his character got the most screen time. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. I would call this just based on the way that everything comes together. And there's so much that I love

about it. I would almost call it like a little overly ambitious. Yeah. But it's really interesting to see where this sits in his filmography. And, you know, he's already, it's crazy that this being anyone's third movie is like incredible. Boogie Knights is being some of the second movie is like fucking what the heck, what the demon? Yeah, what's your secret? Probably a lot of cocaine.

And he made all of these, these three films. I think he made before he was 30. No, why are you going to be telling me that? He started young. That's fucking insane. Yeah. That is insane. Yeah, and it's kind of interesting and funny Tom Cruise being in this as well.

But a little bit of irony to it. There's like maybe a couple movies where you see him play kind of a scumbag. What was that movie called? Yeah, I guess he was on fire, right? Eyes wide shut, he was just after that. So it's quite an inverse character. You're getting a tropic thunder that. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's part of what I was surprised by with that. Tom Cruise standing out with with that type of character he's playing with how just kind of he was did you see that whole drama about like the rock or whatever what and whatnot being peeing in bottles refusing to peeing in bottles and like showing up eight hours late yeah and like in these contracts so you can't lose a fight you can't you can't play a certain type of person because it might hurt my image well that's not on Tom Cruise's mind with this because He's playing like a scumbag, a grifter, really. Just a red-pelling grifter.

And he's just as much of like a movie star in this generation, like Mission Impossible. Oh, yeah. Like he was selling tickets. Oh, yeah. They just, they probably have to spend more on, more visual, more on visual effects to hide some of the wrinkles or whatever. He's getting up there. But yeah, he's still, he's still getting butts and seats. But yeah, I really thought his performance was like layered and excellent.

And the way it was like trickled out like the just what we're praising about challenges the way that interview, the framing of it and the way he handles it. I love right before he sits down to do the interview and he's kind of like mocking them with his just overt ego like, hey, I'm like spitting gold right now. You're not filming? You're not filming? Yeah. He's like his shirt's like not buttoned up and like the scene kind of. cuts right as he sits down. So what do you want to know?

It's like, as the audience knows everything, you really need to know about this guy. Yeah. It's like, yes, these scenes, I love the way they're written. I love the point they begin, the point they end and what you've learned in that space between is always like so rich with like, pick enough about these characters. His, basically, you're just watching like his insecurity is as a self-defense mechanism, which, you know, works well for the character. I could imagine, now that we're kind of like teasing the idea of like trimming it down,

and cutting things out. I could have watched a movie just of that character. Like the Tom Cruise character? Exactly, yeah. Just that character? That would have been a very fascinating film. Because I really feel like there's enough going on. Yeah.

It's funny because we, Paul Thomas Anderson has really grown into a filmmaker, especially, that does such a great job with character studies that don't necessarily need intertwining stories. There will be bled, obviously. The Master, which is funny because somebody said, I didn't fact check this, but I could imagine it would seem crazy for this not to be the case. Tom Cruise got a little bit upset about that movie because it's just very obviously talking

about Scientology without explicitly stating it. It's kind of funny that he went along and made that one. That would be even funnier if Tom Cruise was in that one. That would be hilarious. He just didn't even know. Couldn't draw the conclusions. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was there was a hint of irony with that.

that anyway than being this kind of like culty leader with his, uh, hoard of followers that pay him for his beliefs and the, yeah, the kind of dissonance there. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Like people don't really reflect on these things or maybe there's a part of themselves that knows it.

I don't know if it, yeah. Yeah, it's weird with him because he isn't like, you'd expect him to be more of a rock type figure, but he will pick challenging roles like Eyes WideShut or Magnolia and deliver a performance. It's like, oh, you're kind of like, you're the level of a psycho where you can just bring out this incredible performance. I might really bring someone to life. Yeah, despite all the other stuff that's going on there. He's supposed to be like a lovely guy.

What do you think about the repeated imagery or the number 82? Did you notice that? I only did in retrospect looking up the... We're just trying to find some meaning out of the frog thing, obviously. And looking up Exodus 8. Because it was fucking everywhere. Like, it was like fucking 30 times in the first like 40 minutes or something.

Because, yeah, I saw some people when talking about this movie you're spreading this idea that like, oh, PTA didn't, he didn't even know about Exodus. 8-2 when writing it and said, no, that's that seems impossible with like how many references that- Someone literally holds up a sign saying Exodus 8-2 in the film. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I went to that frame and had a look after the fact. Yeah, I do think that's interesting and as to what I was saying earlier on about those

opening vignettes and hammering home this idea of like this, this, this, this magic. sadness can actually happen. And it is unexpected, like, how you interpret it is up to you. Like, is this too wild to be, is this too much to be fate? Or is this God or is this determinism or is this this, what is this just chaos? That like core question at the beginning of it and bringing it back home with the frog scene using that as a way to instigate all these character changes or at least wrap the film up in a kind of crazy, funny. because I really talked about the humor and there's a lot of good humor in Boogie Nights too. But there's like laugh out loud humor in the film, a dark sense of humor, for sure.

There's like some awesome weird like with the frogs. It's just the timing of some of that, like the way they're just stopping like a suicide attempt with a frog falling through like the ceiling and hitting the gun out of his hand. When William H. Macy is like getting in his car the next day and there's just like frogs everywhere. Like the set is just hundreds of frogs and he's like wiping them off his windshield. It's like very, very weird, a very strange sense of humor like warped, but clever. There is like this underlying cleverness and sort of like empathetic, empathetic understanding. It's not about like mocking people or trying to put people down all these different types of people like the William H. Macy. It does find the humor there, but it's also, it does delve into the sadness of like, yeah, he was this child style basically.

that was pretty much abused, had all of his money taken from him that he earned being the child star, and then he's just kind of left. And he has like some of the saddest lines in the whole film. And most of the characters have that level of depth of them. They're bringing out stuff you wouldn't expect. They are fleshed out. They feel like humans. You know people kind of like this.

Even in the melodrama that it does reach, especially with some characters, like the little kid, savant character. Some of the dialogue there, some of the ways the melodrama manifests, like it wasn't really working like the melodrama of Tom Cruise going to see his father or Julian Moore in the pharmacy, her breakdown. I love that scene.

Great performance. Yeah, just some of these other notes, some of the melodrama just didn't come together for me, but yeah, it does I don't want to over-emphasize the critique, I just think it's interesting with this film and how it sits in his filmography. Yeah, this is really the only one of his I feel this way about where, yeah, inherent vice is like weird and doesn't really work. And I'm not seeing the like the jewel that's in there like with Magnolia where there is like just so much good stuff to sift through.

Yeah. It makes it very interesting to talk about and watch. It does seem to fit like pretty snugly in between his masterpieces and his misfires. Like it's... Yeah. Yeah. And it is like a combination of both. There's masterpiece stuff within this. And there is a better film somewhere in here. What I found interesting is, you know, the parts that I definitely remembered from when I watched it when I was younger, the parts that really stuck with me are some of my favorite parts of this watch as well. just so clear like, okay, yeah, that's why it stuck with me.

Like that oneer, like the opening scene, like the raining frogs and like Tom Cruise breaking down. Like those are the four pretty much that just stuck with me and had me experiencing like a real, like genuine, emotional experience with the film. Like I was locked into it even at a younger age and just it being able to present those ideas and emotions upon me and me just not. me really getting something genuine out of it in a way that that, you know, I wasn't confused about what I was watching and I was able to appreciate it. I do love about the opening scene that they presented in kind of like a, it's almost like a conspiracy, like crime scene documentary. And you've got like the imagery of like the circled line and the arrow of somebody like as if they're writing down like a football play or something. I forget exactly what that's called that effect, but it's a very smart way to open the film, I agree.

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I do want to mention about the frogs. Like, that whole sequence is insane. The way that it's done practically, like, that's a crazy, ambitious thing to try to pull off. Yeah. Like, that's epic. It's actually epic. I never use that word.

Yeah. No, it's like the correct use of the word. I think it's like a very clever blend of ILM getting some kind of scale effects in there so they're not having real frogs like dying or never being crushed. But I agree, yeah. So in that behind the scenes documentary thing, there were some shots like showing the on set of some of those frog shots. And it is also like the work they put in the amount of these like models they have littered everywhere. Yeah, the thoughtful nature of you don't even notice the combination of visual effects and practical.

It's so well done, so well thought out, so convincing in how they do it. And it does it. There is something about it. And I remember having the feeling when I first watched it. Like, this is crazy? Like, this is this working? But it does. Like, it really does work for the film.

It does drive everything. I have put like a nice full stop on it. And there, yeah. And the fact that like you can actually do reading about it and it is something that is rare, but like actually possible to happen, which is kind of the point of the movie, you know? Yeah, it's like a good like, it's a good way to summarize the story within itself. It needed like a quick way to be able to summarize what it's throwing out there because you couldn't have, you'd need like another three hours to like traditionally like wrap up like where these characters were going and what was happening. And it's a good way to just be like, okay, the story's kind of wrapping up. Something crazy is happening.

It's already been set up in ways with the 8-2 references everywhere with that intro. It's not just coming out of nowhere, putting our hands up because we've written ourselves into a corner. It's like, nope, this is the right time to end this for these characters. This is a crazy memorable ending. This is something you've definitely never seen before. And it's not something I've seen in other films that aren't, you know, the Prince of Egypt or whatever. And yeah, and what it's saying about this. Is it biblical? Is this just a free chance thing? And the way you can interpret it is based on, yeah, the way you view these characters and the way you view life and, yeah, how this, how we got here and what to take from it. I guess, yeah, quite philosophical in that sense.

Mm-hmm. Which his best films do. And yeah, I love that angle of it. We should mention the score. I think John Bryan did the score. who is, you know, like, I don't think he's ever won an Oscar. I'm going to look him up. No, he's definitely like a household name. Yeah, it's crazy because he is such a key component

of so many of like the greatest films ever. Like literally. Unsung hero. Yeah, and he's not even like, oh, he just happened to be involved. Like he's a part of what makes these films work. The pacing to the music. music, the rhythm of it. It really helps the scenes flow. Super well composed. And what was also interesting is, so I rewatched Madam Webb recently. And, uh, damn, he's never even gotten a

fucking nomination for Oscars. What the hell? Oh, Jesus Christ. That pisses me off. That actually makes me upset. Uh, is it because Amy Mann, like, got more credit for this soundtrack with a... Well, I mean, she was original song written for the film. Yeah, yeah. She got that. But yeah, I rewatched Madam Webb recently, and one of the best scenes in that film is where they try to do diagetic music playing alongside the score at the same time. It was like, oh, Britney Spears toxic, but then somebody in the studio was like, no, because it has to be like, you have to have the tension music as well. And so you have two of these things competing and clashing in ways that just do not work at all.

fascinating and what I found interesting about this film is there's there's like more than one point where they do have the non-diagetic score playing alongside some dietic music in the film at the same time but it's it's as if it were it's it's as if the score was written with that planned in a way and it was just complimentary enough where even though there were two things happening at once that were separate, they weren't feeling like they were necessarily competing. And it was a lot more subtle. And it was one of those things where it's like, oh, okay, I didn't even know you could do this

in a way where it didn't feel awkward. Yeah. And on that, how do you feel about that moment where each one of the major characters sings a line or two from this song and each line is supposed to reflect something to do their story? I felt like that was a little cheese. didn't love that scene it was definitely cheese that was one of the moments where it goes more sort of melodrama yeah like I I don't hate it though because I get what he's

do it feeds more into like that's super ambitious and I get what you're trying to do like giving us a moment of tying these characters together in a way that isn't as literal but you're right that it doesn't fully work it feels a bit more like uh I imagine like COVID some of these celebrities like having a few lines of a Beatles song or whatever some quite that level but you know oh yeah that's funny yeah

it is a little silly and it does I don't know if I need it to be in the film sort of thing yeah that's what I mean about some of these moments of melodrama where it's like sometimes it really works and sometimes it's that's a bit of a miss didn't need that right there

and that just hurts more in a film that it's just so long, like the three hours. I feel it at certain points, that's not sure, even if I'm appreciating what I'm seeing if the production is just consistently impressive all throughout. Most of the performances, too, there isn't really, that's part of what is interesting about this movie to me, is it's not the standard issue you might see in one of these big films. It's almost entirely down to the writer-director.

You can't point at like the actors necessarily. It's more it's just baked into what it is. And part of the roughness of it is also what makes it good. Yeah. Yeah, a really unique way. And there's almost like these, there are these moments where characters almost address to the audience, like the over-the-top nature of it, like the scene where more, like breaks down. She has a line like this is so fucked up and over the top I can hardly stand it.

And I wasn't sure if that's like prodding the audience slightly. Like yeah, this isn't over the top scene. There is, it's like acknowledging the melodrama to a certain degree. So almost it needs the melodrama to even work at all with like how, how ambitious this is, how the kind of subject matter that is being dealt with. It's like, yeah, a lot of heavy stuff that's being played with. And it does require the like right finesse to get that level of humor, get that level of darkness and not get lost in this big image you've created with this. Yeah.

It's a very interesting, very weird, very ambitious film that's trying to tackle a lot at once. And I'm glad we watched it again. I think that's pretty much everything I have to say about it. The editing was fucking incredible. Love the editing. There's a really nice flow to a lot of, The scenes, the camera work, so many, like, just the camera will just fucking, just go right up to a character and you have... It's alive. Yeah, it's like a character in the movie.

Very dynamic, very expressive filmmaking. Very, very great movie that has some issues, but just what it, I feel like what it manages to pull off and the things that I do like. about it and the overall experience like sure there are things that didn't work about it and could be cut from it I was never bored that's fucking flying by and also I watched it right after rebel moon part two maybe that's the ideal way to watch it there's like so much more habit like when we got to the hour mark I was like this is where people were still doing story time there's so much more just offered in this it's kind of like yeah if there are these sort of three major groups of characters going on.

It's a three-hour movie. Yeah, it's almost like three really solid episodes. And there's one that's like a 10 out of 10 episode. And there's one that's like a 7 or 8 out of 10. They're the ones also. Very good. It's just hard. When you have so much going on, it's like the anthology movie problem.

It's the crash problem. It's just when you play with so many characters, it's just such an obvious pitfall where all it takes is for one character to not work one story thread or yeah section to not be entertaining at this or at the same level and it drags the whole overall project down in a way that yeah it's not a concern for boogie nights or there will be blood or what I consider to be his better films but yeah I do love where this sits I think it's it was the right film film film to make at that time it was probably the correct thing to do just to jump into this after kind of wild success of boogie

nights I think that's a good decision in retrospect. It's just not my favorite film of this. Yeah. Overly ambitious, but the ambition is part of what makes it work, the parts that do work. Exactly. Yeah. I'd give this a low 8 out of 10 or full star or a high. Yeah, 3 and a half. 7 out of 10 for me. I'm giving it a hard eight. Just ride down the middle hard. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck it.

That's fair. That's generous. I'd say that's fair. Yeah. That's what I, you know, that was the rating that I had from, like, retrospect in my memory. As in, that's what was on IMDB. And I don't think I rated it right after I saw it when I was like 13. But I think, like, I don't know, some years later, I was like, what do I remember it being like? It's an 8. Yeah. So in that way it held up. Yeah, I had this as an 8.

Some great stuff. Hell yeah. Yeah, good pick. Thank you All right Question time Alright let's do some questions then From the Sardinacus community Head over to the suggestion thread

Over on the subreddit Just like Own Space 2026 did To leave questions for future episodes This one's dumb But I don't know Keep showing up in the thread And just

It's one of those ones you just got to answer And just move on, okay Favorite flavor of Pringles Uh You know let's let's do I'm a sour cream and onion kind of guy. Yeah, they're pretty solid. I like a paprika.

It's pretty good. I don't need a lot of pringles. Yeah, I don't know what I go to. I find my sausage fingers and my fat hand doesn't really get into the tube real good, you know? It's not the best receptacle for me. No, yeah, I have to like tilt them out. Yeah, yeah, so.

So I hope that answers your Prinkles question, Owned Space. Yeah, I hope you're pleased about that one. I can do a real one now from Johnny Stevie. What are your thoughts on the whole, Gen Z doesn't like unnecessary sex scenes discourse? On the one hand, I can understand that to a lot of people, especially women, is annoying to have the amount of unnecessary and exploitative nudity in movies for decades. French cinema in particular is full of scenes where women just got topless

for basically no other reason than the director's purviness. But there's also a weirdly puritan. an attitude towards sex scenes that I find kind of odd and I think the availability of porn could be a part of that. So I feel like we brought this up a couple times before but there have been some kind of a, there's been some progress made at least in the streaming space with Netflix embracing this kind of idea where I don't know if it's actually out yet or I've seen the the screenshots of this this feature that's supposedly coming or has been implemented into Netflix where

it's like a toggle. Oh, what? Skip the foreplay literally. What the fuck? Make family movie night less awkward by deleting naughty scenes from this show. Skip the foreplay and straight to the sex scene? So, yeah, the example was like Bridgeton and there's like a toggle saying, no, it's fine or please do. What?

Skip the foreplay literally. Like there's actually, like they, is this implemented? I don't know if it's implemented or an idea that's coming or fake news or what. Okay. But, yeah, the fact we're even questioning it, I guess, feeds back into the central point. It's more and more discussed. Yeah, I read that, like, the amount of sex scenes in movies over the past year has decreased. Yeah, that's another thing.

But I also did not look into it. I just kind of saw a headline and moved on with my day because it wasn't really that important to me. There are some responses to this, you know, of people going like, good, we don't want any sex scenes in movies. It's like, okay, well, I hope that one day you see a movie with a sex scene in it that's purposeful, because I think that's just kind of telling on yourself that, you know, like, what movies have you seen with where every sex scene is a bad thing or any sexiness whatsoever? Like, you know, Megan Fox and Transformers feels a little unnecessary and just kind of dumb. it's literally just hey isn't she hot? Yeah, it's like Playboy

Like that's the whole movie Whereas something like challengers Sure there might be people in the audience They're like oh this is hot That's not really the point of it Hell yeah yeah And it says so much about the characters And it sets up their dynamics

And you can have a sexually charged film That still works And there's a purpose to it And it's handled right A director like Luca Guadagnino Has achieved that Sexuality doesn't need to be in a film

and it doesn't need to be absent from a film it depends on the film you're making yeah don't ban them but yeah you're right in what you say but it's also true that if if we're looking at film as a form of like artistic

expression how would you not include sexuality ever yeah it just seems like an absurd concept when it's like it's part of the human conditions with sexual creatures to never talk about that or allude to that in any art we make,

especially with like the popularity of film and shows and whatnot on the visual medium. It just seems like crazy for that to, I don't know, to me, I find it difficult to even empathize with the opposite stance of like, yeah, it just hurts the pacing, they're never necessary. Well, there definitely are cases where that does happen, you know, like early Game of Thrones. Like some of these sex scenes are just like gratuitous and stupid and annoying. but there are also plenty where you learn. It just shows that they're watching bad movies. Yeah, yeah.

It shows the narrow lens with which they consume media. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I don't know where that comes from, if it is like a just a puritanical thing for just a bit, and we're going to swing another way in 10 years. And I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much of a, like, trend it really is.

Like, we'll see. Like, I just, I try not to take, you know, things that people say on Twitter is, like, a real reflection of the real world. Because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of smart people that don't post on Twitter. Right? A lot of, most of the tweets come from the dumbest people. Most of what's on that platform is the dumbest voices. The dumbest voices or they might not even be human voices as well. Oh yeah.

People are literally getting brought up by bots by, yeah, by plants. But yeah, it's completely absurd that it's able to really dictate anything like that. But I mean, it does. Like if this feature is real and it's actually something's being implemented, it's clearly something. I don't know, they must get so much like telemetry data and like weird stuff from these streaming services like on Netflix, HBO Max or whatever. Maybe they see that this is actually a feature that people would use. Like, why would they build it otherwise, you know?

It's very, it's very weird that it's even being brought up at all. But I don't know. I think some people just inherently have a completely different fundamental approach to like what movies are to them. They are more like a, perhaps like a roller coaster or something like that. And yeah, maybe that would be weird if like,

in a roller coaster it stopped for a second and became like a sex show that you weren't anticipating. But that would, yeah, that would only make sense with you viewing the whole thing as a roller coaster experience, which I really don't.

I think it's much more going on than just like key jangling and whatever. Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. It, you know, there's a lot, the younger generation, I don't know if it's necessarily a generational difference or just the fact that there's younger people saying their opinions on the internet. Like, we'll probably see the same trends.

A lot of the dumbest takes on, you know, something like furry Twitter, we see it like every day. Like a lot of the stupidest, like, puritanical, uh, anti-sex mentality, you'll see their profile. It's like, oh, this person's. 18 through 20 and then like literally it's just a part of growing up they're like oh okay wait sexuality is a part of you know the human experience and it's weird like human beings are the ones placing this weird exception on sexuality out of some weird bizarre insecurity that most people seem to have about sexuality mm-hmm so Yeah, so that puritanical angle definitely does play a role.

I don't know. I think it might just be an age thing rather than a generational thing. Yeah, for sure. Well, speaking of an age thing, the idiot store says a bit of a random one, but are there any modern slang terms that you guys like slash dislike? Well, I'm a skibbitty rislet. Fucking out. So, what?

I, out of that pocket. of phrases I don't know I quite like lock in there's something humorous about locking into me but what's that

I don't know it's just what people say now oh he's locked in you know is that a new thing that people say I think so

yeah it could be wrong I thought that was like in the same you know group as you know Skibbitty

Rizzler bullshit I'm not a fan of W&L there that's my cut off point is there, yeah, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like that's like, that's a moment when you're like, I'm just, I'm too old to indulge in some of these, you know? I'll lock in now and again, but I'm not W or L in of it. I'll even skivodey maybe once in a blue moon,

but no W or L in for me, I'm afraid. What was the question? Just slang that we like? Any, any modern slang you like or dislike in particular? I don't know I just fucking adapt to the times okay I'm evolving I get yeah it depends on what it is and you know especially if I'm going to

be involved in internet culture then you have to have some sort of understanding yeah well I tried to fight it a few times where like when Leifie was at like his prime and the word like cringe was like just every other word. It was everywhere. It's not quite the same as it was. But I remember being like,

I'm going to make an effort to not use the word cringe. But I gave a, I lost, some fights you can't win. You know, you just got to maybe you do need to take the W. I'll take the L, sorry. Turn that L into a W. Yeah, embrace the cringe. That's what I do. You have to be cringed to be.

based? Yes. If you care whether or not people think you're cringe, then you're society cucked. You're gonna get cucked by society? And that would be an L, so you don't want to do that. Yes. I just turned 30 and I feel so old. The 30 isn't even old, but like online it feels old. That's funny. It's hilarious. So how quickly stuff moves with this kind of stuff. Yeah. You know, the best thing you can do is just try not to be a person that, you know, turns into everything you hated about older people.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Every single fucking generation is just playing through the fucking same song and dance of like, this, the younger generation's unhinged and crazy and lazy. And it's like, fucking got, like, do you don't remember this shit that they were saying about your generation? Like, are you seriously judging entire generations of people based on the worst takes on Twitter? Like, you're literally, you think you're so detached from reality that you think that a,

your generation that you're a part of. Like, oh, yeah, all the best voices are what people saw of that. No, people look at the stupidest voices in every generation. Exactly. Time moves forward. I remember when, uh, when I used to use to use. YouTube as my main source of listening to music like in the mid 2000s or whatever those that was always the joke right in the comments was like man I was born in

the wrong generation that when this song was out is when music was real when and it's like oh you said the longer you live the more times you just see oh now now people my age are saying that about like the early 2000s that's when music was real I guess it's like oh I guess everyone just does this like every generation it's like yeah Yars was the real thing and now it sucks. You compare the entire year of art that you're in to just the memorable great things from previous decades. The things you loved in your formative years too, especially. Yeah, you're feeling nostalgia for the good things.

But there was a lot of shit too. Which you loved because you were 13. Yeah. Go to the Wikipedia page. There's Wikipedia lists. all of the notable releases from a certain year. That's how I made my April Fool's video, top 10 films of 1996.

The first half of that is me just like, I went through the Wikipedia list, found some ones that looked funny, watched some trailers, found some funny trailers, and then it was like, okay, I'm including this. Because there's a lot. You know, like, nobody remembers the film bogus starring Whoopi Goldberg, Gerard de Pardieu,

and Haley, Joel Osmond. But that was a movie in 19, 1996. It was a movie that was in a theater. Right? Oh, there's so many of those. There's so many. And you might see a movie in 1996 and be like,

damn, they just don't make movies like the 70s anymore. Or like art and culture. Like people are now nostalgic for like the spice girls. When that check came out, people were like, this is not music. Yeah. This is the death of pop or whatever. Yeah. Whatever.

Like, it doesn't really. Boy bands are ruining music. Yeah, yeah. Right, let's do a couple more here there. Like this one from Fobtack. Papa Meat recently posted a video ranking different fandoms against each other to determine which fandom smells the worst. His pick for the top smelliest fandom of all time with furies. My question for Adam, do you agree with this take?

Do you have any horror stories involving stinky furies? And for Alex. Have you had any run-ins with stinky fandoms? What's the methodology? I don't know. Have you had any run-ins with stinky fandoms at movie theaters or elsewhere? Marvel fans, anime fans, et cetera. I'll let you go first.

What was the methodology? Did you just, that was like a meme video, right? I didn't watch it. I assumed so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't see it. I think I will, I will throw in that like there is, you know, that people who don't understand or haven't been involved in communities like that would assume like,

oh, furries are so smelly. Furze, you're so smelly. But a lot of those people that make those assumptions are just people that have experience with like anime and gaming fandoms. Yeah, because that is the answer. Holy shit. Like gaming conventions, um, dude, it's, it's not right. What is happening with like some of the basic hygiene stuff you're getting there.

Yeah. It smells. It's, uh, it's like, there was this time I wanted to go to in London. And they did this like big, like smash Bros tournament thing. I was like, oh, this sounds sick or whatever. Then I'd like talk to some people, hear some stories. I'm like, bro, some of the, some of the, some of the, the hygiene is just, it's vile. Yeah.

So I just didn't, we might have going to that one. What furries have going for them in terms of hygiene is like, fucking, like, 80% of the community is a bunch of queer people. And then the majority, like, it seems like. It seems they're like bottoms, right? There's a lot of people that are like hyper obsessive over hygiene in the furry community, right? Alex, as a non-furry yourself, who has now been to two different furry conventions, would you say there was any smell? There was no single BO smell.

And I would say because that bothers me when I don't know when you get it bad. I know, yeah. Not once. Yeah, I went to RT. TX two different ears and just on a whim I was like okay I'm gonna check out what they call the rave I want to see what a rave is right for this gaming YouTube censored centered convention and it was like a wall a wall of B-O I was like whoa what the fuck you could taste it in the air yeah yeah so I uh when I when I walked into that room I was like is this what people think furry conventions is

Like, I finally get it now that I've seen what the fuck this can, like, holy shit. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't know. Sure. Sure, there's very likely a couple furries here and there that don't understand good hygiene and don't understand deodorant or showering, right? That definitely exists in any community. Yeah, yeah. Especially, you know, online people.

Some might not be as socially fluent. but in terms of, you know, communities that are online people, furies have to be, like, at the top of the least for most hygienic you could get. If you're comparing furies to, like, anime, gaming, Star Wars, like any fucking nerd culture. Gaming, Comic-Con, yeah. That exist. Furries are the least stinky by far. Yeah, yeah.

I remember it being such a problem when I was, like, really obsessed in the, again, in, like, the 2010. I was big into like IGN at the time and some of the podcasts and stuff they did. And they would talk about, yeah, going to E3 or whatever or Gamescom. And they said like, yeah, you have to bring hand sanitizer. You like, even like noseblocks. Like it's so bad like some of the hygiene. Jesus. It's like, yeah.

And yeah, I completely believe it. And it's like it's part of why I love all this nerd shit, but I'm just not, I don't want to go to ComicCon. I don't want to I don't want that in my life I don't need that I'm good yeah

furries not stinky sorry you fucked up you fucked up meat Canyon you don't fucked up now fiendish

doctor woo oh shit well uh drama yeah hell are you got some drama going

Should we do one more here? Yeah, let's do it. Spider with a hat has this to say. Do you guys feel like you have an especially good memory? I hear you talking about movies watched years ago and you remember so many details. I find that amazing considering I can't remember most of my favorite movies. I don't have a good memory. Not at all.

That's why I've got to make notes. I've got to reference notes. That's why I got to rewatch a rebel. Moon part one. So I can remember like what happened. It's weird that I've got a, I, the visual memory I've got a very good one. I remember shots in movies. I remember visual elements. It's more like the names of things and names of actors, like the words I don't remember. Um, by you. When a spirit, when an experience connects with me, I have a fucking incredible memory, but

that's, I, I've never been diagnosed, but I feel like I might have. have autism because I'm like every fucking day that passes I'm like wow I do really kind of like hyper focus and have like obsessions on things and then other things just literally fucking bounce off me like I posted that video the boss baby thing yeah yeah or I was like I was not understanding like basic elements of the plot and just things that happened like five minutes ago I was like what because it just bounces off me but the real experiences that I do get something out of whether it's even like a positive or negative emotion, I remember those things super fucking well. I can remember like the key of a song that I haven't heard in like 20 years if it's

something that I love. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Could be ADHD autism. The Venn diagrams pretty crosses over. Yeah. Big for that one. Could be both. There's definitely something there. I have a I have a really good memory when it comes to, like, experiences, not just, like, in movies, but, like, conversations with people or, like, meaningful interactions that I have with people. Or, like, trauma. I have a really good memory for trauma. Yeah. Any traumatic. Yeah.

Yeah. Anything traumatic or if there's like any room for imagination to you've got like a good good when you have a good visual imagination and something's bothering you um it could yeah that could be a curse in and of itself yeah so in some ways i have the best memory and in some ways i have the worst it depends on what the experience is i am at both opposite ends of that spectrum simultaneously Yeah, I also find music and sounds capture memory to me quite unlike anything. So I could listen to a song I was rinsing in 2014 and would just bring me to that moment where I was listening to that song a lot, like the exact emotions I was feeling what I was going through at that time.

It's one of the things I love about music actually. So it has this unique ability for me to like, yeah, bind itself to moments in time. other kind of artistic mediums don't do for me in the same way. Mm-hmm. All right. That's it. We did it. We did it, fam.

You did it, fam. That was a real W of an episode. Yeah, you're right. No, L's to be seen around here. Oh, God, feels so fucking old. Well. Get used to it. Yeah.

Double down, I see. Yeah, lean into it. Get a cane. Start yelling at kids. I can't even go down the cake. Yeah, old man yells at cloud. I feel like I've really been there a bunch of times, but I'm just got to get angrier and yell at more clouds, I guess. I'll figure it out.

But yeah, I figured out what to recommend you, right? this you're not gonna be happy about this I'm sorry oh thanks I'm sorry but I have to do it sometimes things line up in a way oh is this time god damn it Adam this is timed I wasn't planning to do this yes you mentioned earlier okay oh fine you just you presented an opportunity for me now where it's gonna hurt okay so you're saying it's my fault before you even hurt me it's gonna hurt you yes yes yes what you were alluding to earlier right You're talking about what BVS did to you, okay? Oh, fuck!

Well, it made you blame, right? It made you blame a certain franchise, okay? We've already done them. No, there's one missing. There is a 2016 film by Gareth Edwards. Oh, no! I recommend you Rogue One. I was going to not watch it.

I literally removed it from my one. I thought I was going to not watch it. Yes. I literally removed it from my watch list. It's 2016, so you've at least. He's got that excuse. Also, I selfishly, I'm curious to revisit almost 10 years later. And those were good.

I love that character. Also, like, just the time. And if this, you have, you got to give me that one. I'm so sorry, but it's too juicy. It's too, it's too juicy. Come on. You can't. No, I understand.

It's fine. It had to be done. I'm sorry, man, but, yeah. Oh. Oh dear If you don't Want to be spoiled For

Rogue one I'm not finishing the spot era I'm still here A Star Wars story I Directed by Gareth Edwards Watch it

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You've... I'm so sorry. Sometimes, man. It's over two hours. I'm gonna be so pissed Oh, I flies by there Buh, do you Brees

I'd be so pissed watching this Oh man Whatever Whatever I'll be a good sport About it

Let's go Yeah Fuck it All right Thanks for listening to everybody Bye everybody Bye

Fuck off It's May the 6th right now fucking god damn it all right bye