Sardonicast - Sardonicast 165: Baby Reindeer, The Curse, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

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Three, two, one. You're a rebel now. That was a quote. Woo! From a... Oh, you're so excited about it. I'm Adam from Sardonicast. I mean, your movie sucks, but this is also Sardonicast.

Doing great. And I'm... I'm... Borgullet from Rogue One. I mean, Alex from... I hate Chi. Be careful not to check on your aspirations. Oh, you did it.

I was about to do it. You whipped it straight from. Yeah. Man, you stole the thunder right there, yeah. There were two quotes. Was it? Yeah. From the entire film that were memorable.

I'll hold my tongue. I'll hold my tongue. You'll hold your tongue, but you burnt it. I did burn it, yeah, on my tea that I just started sipping. It's part of the ritual for the podcast, make a tea. But yeah, I, uh, I burnt my tongue and it hurts So it's my first burn episode

I guess it's fair for burning you for having to watch Rogue One You know that's karma Oh yeah It is Media Have you you've never like just So I drank tea for the first time in I don't know a year

Two nights ago And I just put like We're talking English breakfast yeah Well it was like It was like It It, it, what was it? It was like a red something.

Red. It kind of tasted like, uh, whatever the fuck. What is the English breakfast tea? Is it literally just called? English breakfast, yeah, that's what you want. It kind of tastes it. There's another word for it. But that's what you want, yeah.

There's another word for it. I don't remember. My brain's fucking mush right now. I just woke up. Another word for tea. No, just the type of tea. What is it called? That's always what I ask for it.

Not like old English or something? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, you usually just say English breakfast. It's just what I've said my whole life. Not even a breakfast. It doesn't have to be a breakfast. It's just the name.

Yeah, it's just whatever. Anyways, I got, my roommate makes tea. And so I had some. But what I did is I just put like one ice cube in my tea. So it wasn't, it wasn't like an iced tea. It was just, oh, I got it to be a, drinkable temperature sooner. Sometimes I'll do that if my soup is too hot. You put ice into your soup?

If it's too hot, yeah. Well, because I don't like to wait for things to cool. Okay, yeah, I've never heard of that. Is that illegal in the UK? Are you allowed to do that? It feels illegal, you know? I'm not going to pass a judgment, but someone about that, it feels intuitively wrong. I gotta admit. What? Doesn't it just melt instantly? You're dropping like ice cube in your tea. Earl Grey was what the word I was looking for. Is that the same as English breakfast or no? Oh, Earl Grey. No, that's not the same, no. Because it would be, you don't, most people don't have English breakfast without any milk.

Okay. Or I guess what in America, they say cream. Well, then that would cool it down. Yeah, I think that's what does it. But you didn't. Because if you have a drop of milk. But no, I often drink it black. You know what I'm saying? Some of my coffee. Yeah, keep it simple. And now you've injured yourself. Now I'm injured, I'm swollen and scared. So we will talk about Rogue One at some point, but we also watched, there's a fuck ton of TV shows out.

We watched a couple of them. So many. We had a lot to choose from. We're slowly making our way through a bunch of other ones. Halo is not something I could I haven't been prioritizing it I've chipped like three

or three episodes I've got to do the Reach episode then I start I haven't continued since then I think I finished two episodes and I think I finished four episodes of the fallout show okay I finished fuller

but there were two shows that I found really easy to binge and just kind of plowed through them one of them was baby reindeer and Alex saw that as well What did you think? It's huge, first of all. This must be one of the biggest Netflix shows in a while as far as like zeitgeist capturing

that conversation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Going like that meta element of like exploding past the show and it becoming just part of like a pop culture conversation. Yeah, I agree it's it's fairly bingeable, it's watchable, it's short very, I know the main characters are Scottish but British and it's like sensibilities and that awkward kind of cringe nature it's yeah presenting um and yeah it doesn't really it takes a few episodes to reveal the

intimate honest character study it's going for because i don't know about you but for the first couple episodes this this this lead character um this struggling comedian richard gad who works in a pub and he's trying to find his way um there's something frustrating about this character and how like aimless or how self-sabotage he is. And it's intentionally framed that way to try and, you know, present this person to you and this insane situation involving the stalker character and untangle this web and try and basically like psychoanalyze himself and see and try and assess these past traumas and this like rollercoaster ride of his life and trying to figure out how he's going to the

mess he's in. And yeah, you're right there with the character. So it is kind of frustrating at first, but the more you learn about and the more he opens up and the more you learn about his relationships with people and what he's been hiding. Yeah, it tends to quite an honest like deconstruction of his life. And before we go, yeah, Spoiler discussion. Beyond that, the, yeah, I'm glad you said it so I don't even know how to dance around it at this point.

I feel like a lot of people have already seen this too at this point is so popular and it's exploding into. It's easy to. It's very easy to watch. It's shareable. There's like the... It's short for a series too. I don't... Yeah, it is short. But I don't know if I... I was trying to wrap my brain, wrap my brain for something like this that is kind of wound up being an unintentional expose of shorts, of sorts. Because, like, how do you dance around the fact that this is based on a true story? And I don't know about you, but I'm so kind of prepared. at this point that when I see that prefacing any TV show or movie, I don't really believe it for the most part or see it more as like a marketing thing. Yeah, I always kind of take it with a grain of salt. Exactly. That even if there are elements of truth to a story, you have to expect that there's going to be some things that are embellished or told out of order. Like, you're making a dramatic narrative out of allegedly an existing story. And so you like there's no

Very few stories that would exist that would have the same Cinematic beats that you would want to Present in your show like that no And I don't know there were there were scenes that were kind of ringing like They didn't seem literal but they came across like that feeling you have when you've had some kind of confrontation or something happened in your life where you're thinking after the fact Man I wish I could have summarized this or said this at that time. What if this happened?

I get that kind of feeling from some... Yeah, exactly. So I didn't really take it as literal as that, but then in going back to the ex-bosé kind of nature of it, this lead character, or this lead, I guess, antagonist that is framed as the stalker of Richard Gad. Martha. Martha.

Martha. Martha, yeah. Who is this... She's like the big mystery of the show. and is the stalker character that everyone's kind of like talking about. And I can't keep dancing around the Pierce Morgan thing. I've got to go there. Let's do it.

It's so distracting to me. So just like, it's so, so, like. So yeah, the show comes out. Everyone sees it. There's this whole kind of me too-ish episode in this whole angle. And just, yeah, talking about the true story elements and framing it as that and not trying to hide that and not, I don't know, like really leaning into that side of it. And then, well, of course, Pierce Morgan out of everybody, because of how popular this is, because of it trending on TikTok and people turning, like, kind of going on these witch hunt hunts down to try and find the real people it's based on and actually getting results. So it only took, like, a matter of days for people to find the real Martha, quote unquote.

And it wasn't that difficult because then when you contrast the woman Pierce Morgan found and put on the show with the actor they chose to play the same person. Yeah, it's like the same person. Both of the Scottish accent kind of like, yeah, it's like there's a very intentional like casting decision going on there with the way they casted this character and presented her. Which does make me question like, man, it's just something about Netflix to me and especially since the 13 reasons why kind of drama, which wasn't even based on anything real, but there was the real life kind of consequence of them presenting these heavy subjects the way, the ham fisted way that they. did with that show. I think this is a lot better made than that, but that's where my mind around the show is kind of sitting and what I'm thinking about the most is this kind of confusing moral ambiguity with how they approached it, but then also the battle in my head of like, well, this is his story. It's his, it's well written. It was a play before being adapted into the show. And he'd

toured with it. And it's clearly connecting with people. and people want to hear it and there's lots of really self-deprecating, honest dialogue, and it is entertaining the whole way through, it's creative. There's so much going on. Yeah, I can't get over that. Or like, I just haven't really experienced a piece of media that is riding that line for me in a few certain ways. Yeah, it kind of, the show is kind of continuing outside into reality. Like, it's not over.

The story is still going, kind of. Yeah. And especially if like a big part of the show is kind of, it's not trying to simplify these complex relationships that are being established or like frame someone as an obvious villain or an obvious good guy. It's trying to figure out like the, going to the psychology of these people and try and add a bit of grayness to do that and then I don't know, just have this witch hunt then come in after it. It's just so, there's something off about it to me, the way it feels. It just doesn't sit right. And he hasn't said anything since it's come out. And in the Pierce Morgan interviews that was going all about, they were focusing on the details as far as like, well, this didn't happen in the show.

And they're claiming it, it did happen in the show. But then the woman in the interviews is like, she can't keep her story straight. And she's saying, oh, I didn't watch the show. But then she's referencing things that happened in the show. And it's like just this huge mess that just feels like. Yeah, she wasn't very convinced. No, no. But at the same time, I'll, you know, I'm the type of person where I'm comfortable saying

I don't know something. That seems like crazy talk to so many fucking people, especially on the internet. I know. Where you can hear different sides of a story and not come up with a confident, hard conclusion about things and say, you know what, I'm going to wait and see how the court case goes, and that might be interesting. here's what we do know, but we have no idea because we weren't there. So I'm not willing to say like, oh, yeah, the entire thing was true or the entire thing wasn't true or, you know, parts of it.

Like, I'd imagine, you know, just the nature of doing a true story adapted into a narrative. You have to embellish some things. But like, to the degree of whether or not the premise or point or framing was dishonest, I don't know. to the degree of whether or not someone like Martha would have a case against the show to sue. And that would also not only include how she was represented in the show, but it would include exactly what the laws are in the UK for things like defamation or slander or whichever libel or whichever one it falls under. I think that there's, you know, different words for if it's spoken versus,

written or it's difficult too and then you know there must be nuggets of truth in there because there is I think people found her from taking yeah you know it's part it's part of the show that she's emailing Richard like 40,000 times and texting him all the time and I think that's how people found they found her through social media they found a Twitter account yeah they were like searching these similar phrases and whatnot yeah yeah got results which is funny because like according to the show and Netflix they were like okay we've taken enough steps to make sure you can't trace it back to the real person, which I think they said, or at least Pierce Morgan says that they said, but I didn't trace it back. That has been said, yeah, yeah. So they

clearly didn't do a good enough job at that, or were just really naive about what people would be able to search or maybe how big the show was going to be. Yeah, it strikes me as naivety for sure. I don't know how you'd anticipate that level of popularity, but then that the buck kind of does stop at Netflix to me where it's like, well, I mean, it is your responsibility, right? That has to always be an option on the cars that something might blow up to this kind of popularity and people go insane for shows that aren't based on true stories and, you know, some people death threats and docs actors and all sorts of craziness. So like, this is like on the next level, going back to that ex-bosé kind of part in the whole

like Me Too episode in the middle there that gives a bunch of like context and delves into the backstory of the character. partially why he ends up why and where he ends up the place he does yeah there's there's there are individuals being targeted like and and for sure with with like the actor in the show being referenced as like an illusion to who the real kind of pest was in in reality and people are being sent death threats and the wrong people are being sent death threats and so this whole like vigilante witch hunt thing is like I don't know

something real dark about that. I couldn't imagine myself ever participating in something like that. No, it's insane to me. But it's a human behavior that just happens time and time again. People just do it. Yeah. I don't know. They must think it's, yeah, makes them they're helping somehow to undo a wrong.

Yeah. I don't know. Like this has happened before like right where big witch hunts go down on on Reddit or whatever and they find the wrong person and Boston bomber Bad things. Yeah, really bad things wind up happening, exactly. Yeah.

The whole, I don't know, internet detective thing, I think we've seen enough examples of it going wrong. Exactly, yeah. If you're, if you're, I don't know. I'm trying to think about it. It depends on what you're doing, right? Because in some ways I was doing that sort of thing with like research in my Kimba video But unless the person like wrote a book

But the allegation like compare the allegations. Yeah, I know. Well, I mean some people took that very seriously too. True. Yeah, that's exactly the problem. But you know, like depending on the severity of like how someone was involved Like I blurred the overwhelming majority of people's names and shit Because I, you know, I understood like I don't want people to go over it.

Yeah. Just for making it for saying something dumb and getting. a bunch of retweets. But if someone's name is already... If they're literally doing TED talks and writing books, you know, it would be weird to not include their name. Yeah, I... It's a very...

It's a very tricky thing to come to terms with. But I'm very excited over how the court case goes. But I think we'll all need to keep in mind exactly how the legal system even functions. And unfortunately, just people are fucking dumb. There's going to be a lot of people talking on this saying very confident, conclusive things without even having any idea how the legal system in the UK works. And that's going to be frustrating for me.

Oh, yes, frustrating for me. I live here and I barely know how the defamation laws work or whatever. There's also the whole element of the character of Martha within the show is actually arrested and put away. So if that was a real thing that happened, surely there'd be some kind of failure. easy to find record of that. Yeah, but I think in the UK you have to make some sort of like formal request for those records. So in the US you can literally just like search up inmates. If someone's had like an arrest record, you can just be like, ooh, I found you. Just as long as

you have their name. Whereas like, I don't think that that's the same in the UK. I think that there's a different system that you would need to go through. And I don't think that the average person can just easily access it. I'm not sure. Yeah, exactly. But that would be. But that would be an interesting thing to find out and it would be cool for someone to do like an actual breakdown maybe I don't know like you can't get legal eagle because he's not in the UK so he's not as familiar with that system but if there's any kind of like expert that maybe we could defer to that's not like Pierce Morgan it would be great I know yeah it's very weird seeing that like he's done multiple videos now around this

drama. It's like, I guess, considered British news slash politics. And you got like, you got a big YouTube is coming up with a critical drinking. That was just going to mention that. That was my favorite. He loves him. He loves the critical drinker. He considers him to be like the most important pop culture commentator. And so he just got them on, he got them on this panel, like six different people talking about like the real life legal ramifications of baby reindeer. And then like two or three times Pierce will be like, uh,

so critical drinker, why do you think this show is popular? Just like trying to make him feel like he is there for any particular reason at all. Like, to be fair, I would have been just as awkward on that panel because I would have had no reason to be there either.

Of course. There was like, it was just like no reason why he was there. I was trying to figure out like why him. Yeah, is it just because what, he's Scottish? You've been on Pierce Morgan before.

Pierce loves him. Yeah, he's been on before. And he's like in that circle, I guess, now and the Scottish. So I guess that's it. Yeah, very unusual. He's a trusted source to gauge how people feel about media. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

Can you think of any example where there is this overlap? to where you can't really disconnect it like this. Because that's kind of where I'm struggling right now. It's like, I find it hard to separate when the actual show is the story, it is life. There's a bunch of, I don't know, it's hard not to call them like accusations or, you know. Yeah. Charged. There's been a good chunk of like true crime stuff that is, you know,

is, you know, spilled its way into the public consciousness, like, making of a murderer. You know, there's a lot of people with their own, like, fan theories and things. Like, oh, this person did it and blah, blah, blah, blah, and, like, trying to do internet detective stuff there. And there's a really great mini-series on HBO called The Jinks, Robert Durst. And that actually just got a season two recently, which I'm excited to watch. definitely recommend that. So it's not like it

hasn't happened before. Remember when Tiger King came out and people were like shitting on the woman but like she probably killed someone or like I don't remember that was a huge thing though. Yeah.

Speaking of like true crime type things that's probably the last time I've had these kind of thoughts in my head. I remember thinking about it around Zodiac there was like a little bit of a discussion with like is there something distasteful about like kind of having this beautiful like david fincher direction with these people that were actually brutally murdered and it's like recreated in a certain way is is there something distasteful or like tacky about this and i don't know these like greengrass movies but i don't know there is yeah

there is something interesting about that paul greengrass is way more distasteful i fucking hate Paul Greengrass. Yeah, exactly. I feel like the approach and the intent and the way it comes together is quite important. And I guess that is what makes baby reindeer stand out, is that kind of personal touch. It does feel honest. Yeah. It's just the honesty is painful and targeted.

Yeah. From how we can gauge the presentation and the overall message and what was shown. It feels like to me as a viewer that it was something that he made because he felt like he had to get something off of his chest. And like it was a real personal story to him. And I'm hoping that there wasn't like enough of it that was embellished to go against the point of what he was doing. And I'm hoping that there wasn't enough of it embellished to like contradict any kind of messaging in the series. but we just don't know. I have no idea. Because art can be manipulative. Art can lie. Mm-hmm. Exactly, yeah. But we'll say your memories can lie. Like this might be...

And if it's well-presented art. Yeah, exactly. This might be just how he remembers it too. Like, there's always like the two perspectives or the multiple perspectives of stories and doesn't mean either is inherently wrong. It's a... It is complicated, but... I don't know. I find it tough because it's also like... countless writers, countless creatives do take their pain and misery and channel it into something expressive. It doesn't always have to be so like literal and be like an expert, um, it's like how you package it and where how punch you want, do you want it to, do you want the point of it to be like a, this is a bear just holding up a mirror, unflinching, uncomfortable, like where presenting this like the show chooses to go through like it it doesn't really try to

it's very literal it doesn't really package up things in a way that leaves things open for interpretation it's trying to give you answers it's trying to show you everything it's trying to it's artful in ways but it's it is literal for the most part um and i don't know if that necessarily is my favorite way of channeling those kind of feelings and i was i don't know it's just that middle episode in particular, I was going to ask this question to you and how, like, your feelings around how that episode in particular was presented where I was trying to think of the best way to phrase it. You know how we were talking about in challenges in the completely opposite inverse way? The kind of lack of, more the implication of not violence in that case,

but sexuality or just implying something to have happened, whether that be sex or violence or whatever, as a rule is kind of more effective to me. And I feel like in that episode in the middle, the big one, I feel like there's enough kind of implication going on. And there wasn't really much mystery. And I already felt like I was facing the ugliness and gravity of the situation. and I had a good idea of what it was trying to say. And I couldn't help it feel like, is this getting gratuitous? Is this, was that the point? Are you trying to make me feel this exact way?

I don't know. I don't think it got so far into being gratuitous. I thought it handled it pretty well. It's about that line for me. Yeah. It was disturbing. I just had this feeling where it was definitely disturbing. and there was a point, I think it was just where it chose to cut for me, where I felt like

there was a point where it did cut and I felt like that really communicated the visceral like horror of what you're showing. And then it kept going. I don't know, I feel like I'm tripping over myself a little bit with how I'm trying to explain this because I don't want it sound like just purely like a puritanical, no, no, after that. That's kind of what I'm saying where I'm like, all of this, what you're talking about and presenting, you're implying that we've gotten to this point and that this has been happening anyway, I don't know if we had to really, um, show it quite to that degree. I don't know.

Which part? I'm torn on that myself. Um, pass the finger part when he's like, I don't know, like, it just straight up shows the assault. Then he like blacks out. He comes back from blacking out. It shows it more. Yeah, but I'm, from, from that, if someone, if someone has such a like traumatic memory that they feel like they need to express. I feel like the brutality of showing it can be more effective, not only more effective, but like it's a part of the catharsis. If this is a thing that that person experienced, right? Like, I think it's important to show things without kind of like beating around the bush and making something horrific so that people understand what it's like from their perspective and maybe other people who have experienced the same thing

feel more connected to it. You know, that episode had an actual trigger warning at the beginning of it. It had a big warning, yeah. Which I'm glad I looked away from for a second. Boyfriend was like, oh, did you see that? I was like, oh, wait, I looked away for a second. He's like, okay, good, because it's kind of a spoiler. I'm like, oh.

Right, yeah, yeah. I just, yeah, there's something about that that's really interesting, So I really can see both perspectives. And I feel like I've seen these kind of subject matters just explored, I guess, in a way, they're just connected with me more where, yeah, it just resonated with me more as opposed to, I don't know, there's something kind of messy about this to me. And his life is messy, and he's a messy person. I don't know. There was something about that. I can't not say that that was kind of going through my head during that episode.

Okay. I didn't really have an issue with how they showed any of that. I think it got its point across and it did it in like an emotionally effective way. Yeah, I, uh, this, this is a show that, you know, I'm, there's not many shows or films where I feel as though like a voiceover narration is a benefit. But I feel like it was well written.

And I feel like what they showed and how they showed it was thoughtful and emotionally effective. I was really pleasantly surprised with this. It had like a very like intentional cinematography. You know, they're good transitions.

It was clearly storyboarded in some way. It was planned out very well. It flowed really well. The pacing was great. It was really easy and digestible to watch. Great music choices. Great performances. Yeah, like the beats of the story and like the certain monologues that appear.

And I think that it hit what it was trying to emotionally for me, for the most part, for sure. And I also really loved the awkward. awkward humor and bad stand-up and the fucking... Yeah, the cringe comedy rocks. Yeah, lots of cringe comedy that I love. Yeah, it balances that quite well because, I don't know, without... It feels weird to even, like, criticize if it is based on someone's real life or true story, but just tonally having him being this kind of struggling comedian,

and it does add this sort of levity against this really horrifying thing that's happening to him on multiple different levels. So it's nice to have that kind of awkward levity now and again. But yeah, I do like with the, sorry, with the pacing, I like how there's not a rigidity to the length of the episodes. True. I like when a series can do that where I think like the longest episode might be the the one right in the middle there with the flashback and everything. But then there'll be an episode, that would be like nearly an hour, but then another one might be 30 minutes or 40.

It's just what the pace dictates and the curse of this as well actually. I like that the freedom within that TV format allows you to do that. And yeah, it does definitely help with the pacing and makes it bingeable. I got a shout out though the the Martha actor I thought was incredible yeah she was great

performance was uh quite layered and really kind of held the the show together for me as far as I say that that character could not be two dimensional that Martha character had to have had to be some depth of that performance had to be some like mystery there has to be the oppressive

like fearful nature there and the what she's doing is is wrong and everything, but they don't hide from trying to, you know, peel back the curtain and see what's going on. They visit her house at one point and they delve into her psychology a little bit, or at least imply from Gad's perspective what he might think is the reason as to how she is or why she is. And yeah, that's also a good observation. The perspective and the narration and it kind of just being so centered and focused on Richard

gad the entire time. It's like rooted on him. It's told from his perspective and the way it is jumping through time and delivering it is just like really organized and focused through him. But then I don't know, I feel like I got more kind of nitpicks and problems with this show than you, but he has this relationship with his character Terry, which is like another major character, one of the major three, I'd say. But I think it's a good, interesting character and is really crucial for the story. Gads trying to tell that there's just some parts of that

performance that were not not working for me on that Terry character. Which one is Terry? The trans character. Okay. He kind of falls for and has the tension with. I don't know. Yeah. I heard

someone else say that too. I didn't get that out of it. But you're not the only person I've said. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was just simply, they've got like an American accent. Oh. I don't know.

It's just like the contrast with the... But that shouldn't be an issue anyway because I don't know. I can tell when a American accent is contrasting against an English one or a Scottish one in it. Interesting. I'm not working. There was just something about the performance was just not fully working for me. I liked that character and what it brought out of the lead and the dynamics there created a lot of tension. And it gave him something to strive for and learn about himself.

but like yeah that that character didn't have the or that actor didn't quite bring the just wasn't on the same level as Richard Gad or Jessica Gunning. Yeah, I didn't have an issue with any other performances personally, but yeah. I think what really does prop it up there was the dialogue. There's a lot of really good dialogue and I keep going back to that word honest or honesty. And it does feel like this is a man who has gone through a lot and kind of is self-aware enough to understand and assess, well, somewhat truthfully from what we can tell. It feels honest or truthful anyway. And yeah, the way he talks about himself and the things he's learned about himself is like, man, that takes courage to admit some of the stuff you're admitting like just barefaced. if this is a true story,

like there is something impressive and kind of honorable about that, which is at like the core. And yeah, there's some pretty like biting dialogue and some really like spine chilling stuff as well. That even though there are points that kind of feel embellished, there is also this underlying like believability as well

to the way it's written. Going back to like that Martha character. and some of the things she says are just like so creepy like they're just the name of the show like calling it baby reindeer and these kind of ticks this character has where she's sending these texts constantly that aren't even from an iPhone but including that it's sent from an iPhone and every one of these messages and it's like this is fascinating from a psychological perspective but it is also scary it is horrifying and it is well presented yeah there were lots of good moments of uh especially like lighting and using sets really well or in that mid episode, not, you can't say mid, like midpoint episode. I was talking about that there are, there's like a lot of drug use and a lot of like,

you know, because it's rooted to this character, you're there with his perception. And when he is kind of on a certain drug or whatever, it's creatively presented. They're changing up the lighting. They're going handheld. They're being creative with it.

Yeah. And there's a lot of good stuff like that. Yeah. I think it handled that really well. And like the performances do a lot too, just the way that the character looks and how they act like on a certain substance. Yeah, I really enjoyed the dialogue as well.

I wrote down one of the lines that I found just kind of like stuck in my brain when he was calling them Pilsner misogynists. It's almost like kind of like, you know, he's already going on to the next point. The writing kind of, reminded me a bit of like train spotting in terms of how it was presented and used in the story especially it had that same kind of energy uh with the narration and yeah especially with the

like the Scottish character as well how things flowed yeah yeah so we should probably wrap up this discussion pretty soon because we got a bunch of other stuff to talk about but any other question or comments you guys want to make because um i want to shout out the the scene where he comes out to his That was great. Yeah. That was one of the most emotionally affecting scenes, especially with like his dad's response and how kind of like cold and, you know, there's just something very emotionally effective about that scene.

That's kind of like cathartic. Yeah. And yeah, cathartic's a good way of putting it. A lot of it does feel like that. But yeah, I've got messy thoughts on this kind of like, I did enjoy it. I did like take a break for a couple days in the middle. all and didn't like binge the whole thing because yeah that that middle episode is like putrid in a completely intended way and yeah it's it's

interesting how it's bringing out these conversations and it has people talking about consent trauma stalking what drives people to do these things and the repercussions or lack thereof of them but yeah there's just something about this that's just like lingering me in a way. I don't know how to really pick apart fully. Yeah. So if I had to give this like a score, for now it would be like a high seven out of ten,

three and a half star. I think this was good. I just had that intersection of when it becomes like real and it like goes beyond fiction. And yeah, people getting sent death threats. Yeah. This real Martha woman coming out.

There's something very weird about that. And I don't know if I really blame the writer-director gad for this. I think, yeah, that is more of like a Netflix. The bucks ups of them. That would be like a legal counsel issue. Exactly, yeah. But yeah, quite complicated thoughts on this. It was a great watch.

I'm glad I saw it. I watched it over the course of like a few days. but it was really super easily digestible and just really it was it was just a great thing to get through and time flew by I was like wow the episode's over like it's just it really well-paced and really good story and really well presented I'm giving this an eight out of ten I loved it and I uh oh yeah I will see if a court case is even happening because she could just be lying that she's even doing that. She,

exactly, yeah. We don't even know. But if a court case is happening, that would be very interesting. And surely it doesn't do her any favors for her to have said all those things on Pierce Morgan. Because now that's going to be in the fucking case now.

So we'll see what happens. Who the fuck knows? But it's interesting. And part of me hopes. for there to be something a bit more conclusive on these weird real life moments that have spilled out from the show. But we don't know. We don't know if that's ever going to happen.

Maybe she'll get her own fucking reality show. Yeah. Maybe she'll start doing cameos. I just, yeah, I think they need to be careful. Yeah. They just need to be careful when it's kind of like the show is about how this, this guy has been like abused by, you know, something bigger than him or above him. and then for that to kind of happen

just because of the popularity of the show to somebody else, not in the same, like literal way, but you know what I'm saying? Like, just communicating this this misery and it's like, well, this is this like just propagating it? Is this actually solving anything? Is this a positive conversation? Are we taking away the right things from this? Or we're just enjoying the, like, witch hunt and the exposure of this? Like, I just, yeah, I hope we take away the right things from this.

and we never will The Curse is the new Nathan Fielder Benny Safty Emma Stone joint and it's fucking crazy I loved it

it's my favorite show I've seen in a while spoiler discussion everybody go see it it's on showtime there's 10 episodes it's like the whole thing's like nine hours long it's delightfully awkward

what'd you think about it yeah speaking of cringe comedy who I gotta say Nathan field are coming in here he's coming for that he's coming for the crown he's coming for the awkward comedy crown I thought the Brits had it locked you know I thought I thought we had that locked

but he's come in and he's I don't know from the small handful of projects of from him. He's Nathan Few. The rehearsal. Did we talk about that in the end was... I don't think we did have a full conversation on the rehearsal. I think that was always kind of on the back burner of things we could see. Yeah. I think we were maybe waiting for Ralph to see it when he was on the podcast. I don't remember what... That's right. That sounds right. Yeah, yeah. Um, but of course, those, they're not like a narrative in the same way. It's kind of like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. More of like a direct comedy. This is a full on like, you know,

that he's written the stories directing. This is... Episodes of a narrative with Beno Safdi. Everything's acted this time. Exactly, yeah, he's playing a character. Not that he's not playing a character in the other things. But you know what I'm saying? He directed a few of the episodes too.

Mm-hmm. And did a really well. Wonderful job. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm actually really impressed. Yeah, this is... This is extremely unique.

Because that cringe comedy that I think... I was just not expected to be reminded of things like a people. show or like these awkward British sitcoms, which you can find examples of and you can feel that, but this combination is such a, it seems so obvious now that it would work, but having Benny Safdi and Nathan Fielder combining that like cringe comedy and that awkwardness that Nathan Fielder can bring with the like claustrophobic like tension, like the Saffty brothers are so good at that tension and that right. So yeah, uneasy feeling.

Yeah, uneasy. easy, stressful. Stressful, that building to something, you don't know what's coming. That combination is something real unique, especially by the last episode is I've never seen anything like this before, the way they're, they're exploring this. Yeah. And man, they explore a lot with these three characters, like the themes they're pulling out, the things they're mocking, the whole idea of Nathan Fielder and Emma Stone, who we haven't

even mentioned it, who's also fantastic. These three leads are such an interesting, like another character study thing going on here with these three. Just, are they're so, they're nasty. They're kind of pieces of work and have like very little self-awareness like contrasting with baby reindeer. These three lead characters are like a mess. Nathan Fielder and Emma Stone are these like stereotypical, especially Emma Stone, like California. Like Emma Stone is the daughter to these rich parents. who are like landlords who have like multiple buildings all over and she's kind of trying to rebel against that and yeah Nathan Fielder like used to work in a casino and now they have this whole kind of like performative eco housing show they're trying to like get together and make

work which is what Benny Saffty yeah fliplanthropy that's right we're flipping in a house but we're doing philanthropy so they have that yeah they have this which eventually comes what the green queen They have this concept where they're trying to, I guess, gentrify a neighborhood in, what was it, in New Mexico? New Mexico, yeah. And they've designed these houses that are supposed to be like carbon neutral where they're made out of mirrors that reflect the light away from the home. And so if you can't leave the door open and you can't have air conditioning, otherwise it won't be carbon neutral anymore. And it's very important for them just for the sake of the show that they're trying to pitch and sell for their own image and ego, essentially, to make it seem as though they're helping people in the community when they're not, when they're just making things more awkward and making things more inconvenient and worse for other people. and this entire facade that they're putting on

of trying to appear outwardly philanthropic, when in reality it's just purely for self-interest and to boost their image and their own egos and sense of self-worth. It's super interesting, and I love how these characters are explored. And I love how the ideas are explored thematically. There's like a lot of recurring ideas of, you know, there's a bunch of like Native American characters that show up and there's

like that art piece of her in the TP and like asking what it means. And, you know, I tied in together these ideas of like, okay, there's like the casino and Emma Stone, her parents, like she's obviously coming from a lot of like wealth and privilege and generational inheritance. And there's even points throughout the show where we see her literally like, oh, I'm just going to borrow like $400,000. He doesn't even call it alone. Her dad doesn't even call it alone. He's like, oh, well, you know, if you really want to pay it back.

He just makes fun of it. Yeah, yeah. And she's wearing a hat, so she's not seen like going with him to collect this money from the bank. She's trying to hide this and make it seem like she's doing something herself. But in reality, she's got this head start that no other people around her. do, but at the same time, she's trying to, like, ignore it, and she's trying to pretend otherwise. And it's like, okay, well, that's, to me, that seems like a very clear parallel to, like,

the generational inheritance of, you know, cultures and, you know, colonization of the United States, et cetera, et cetera. And so I found those statements in the way that they're worked into the show very interesting and very effective. And it gave me a lot to chew on over the course of the film. And damn, I love, love, love movies and especially like a show where there is a consistent and effective and purposeful style. So something like the Safdi Brothers Good Time, that's a film where you can notice that

the cinematography is really tight, so tight that it has to be an intentional choice. And it's not just, it's not like Eli Roth's borderlands where he forgot. to film a wide shot. It's, oh, you're going so intentionally close to say something about the tone of the film, to say something about the characters, to show an emotion and an experience through the medium of filmmaking,

through storytelling, and how things are presented, how things are framed. In that same sense, this show is like the inverse in terms of how it's shot. Everything is so distant. Everything is filmed from super far away.

that throughout the entire show, every single episode, like pretty much every single shot, you can see there's like action happening and basically out of focus in the foreground. Like they won't just shoot something from far away. They'll make sure there's like a plant or a tree or a fence or characters or something closer to the frame

that isn't the focus of the shot, but is there to help create that, consistent tone and feeling. And so for a show, you have several different directors over the course of an entire series. There was like an episode directed by the Zellner brothers. Some of them were directed by Nathan. There's a bunch of other directors. And I love seeing a show with such a consistent voice and style where it's clear that the showrunners, it was written by Nathan and and Benny. And so I think they're both the showrunners. They gave enough instruction and and had enough rules in place that no matter who is directing an episode,

it's still told with that same style, with that same consistency. Yeah. And it helps to communicate the ideas and the feelings that are found consistently throughout the show. I love seeing something like that, and I love when it feels like it's purposeful, and it's adding something to it, and it's not just a random choice. The visual expression is very creative. Like just from you talking just then there are two major scenes that just flash into my mind with like the images of what what they did like a Do you remember the scene where Nathan?

Let me get the actual characters names Nathan is Asher Yes Betty Safdi is Dougie Asher and Dougie Who are like long time friends they go out for a meal This really awkward meal Where they yeah they keep talking about this

there's this ongoing thing with the chicken and we haven't got to the curse and explaining what that is yet but there's some tension between these characters and the way it's shot the way it's shot is they're dancing between these two these two angles and when the camera is on the dougy character who kind of has the control and the situation

is more of like a I don't know he's more of an outgoing presence who has more control over the scene he's in the background like moving the chess pieces trying to manipulate people basically to get, make this show into something to get more, more gigs in the, the work he's doing. But in these two angles that they're cut in between, when they're showing Nathan's character

of Asher, they frame the shots of him through what looks like just these, these bars in the other end of the room that evoke like prison bars. And when it cuts back to Dougie, there's nothing obscuring him at all, just to kind of make you feel the tension between these characters, how perhaps he feels. trapped or in that incredible last episode where there's a shot of overhead of, uh, from when, uh, ashes in the tree stuck there and it's looking down at Dougie. There's like the, the shot is framed through a tree branch, but there's this very intentional piece of tree branch that keeps covering Dougie's face.

And he's like intentionally kind of standing behind it again and again to kind of emphasize like he's not seeing. Yeah. He's not listening to him. That's how these characters, it just really like visually summarizes these character dynamics. And that's just two examples that pop into my head right now that every episode is full of those. Every scene is so like thoughtful and there's intent to all of it. And there's normally some kind of like pay off or return to an idea that's like, oh, that's, that wasn't just a funny gag.

You've like turned this into some kind of commentary or something like the native artist you're talking about there's this whole really awkward gag where the doggie character has like a I don't know he's like flirting with her a little bit and finds he's texted this picture about this mini golf course nearby that has this like racist caricature of a native American in this like golf course that they're joking about and Emma Stone thinks it's a good idea to go and buy it and kind of pull this prank on the artist by like leaving it outside of her door and ringing the bell and like hiding behind the corner, which you get like an incredibly awkward horrible scene from an attempt at humor from her.

And it's like, yeah, that accentuates how just out of touch she is, how every, man, every scene of her where she's interacting, especially with those characters and other artists, it's like, I love that. That other character who's like mocking her when she, you know, gate crashes that lunch they're enjoying. And her friend like starts pretending to do like the stereotypical stuff, just like mocking her to a face and she'd like yeah that was like really funny to me but yeah the the the mini golf racist statue or whatever just the way that's like wrapped up with the the garbage

truck like crushing it up and the title card coming over it and yeah it doesn't need to over explain or overindulge what it's getting out it's all like they just say enough dialogue they just express enough with the characters you can pick up what it's putting down without it feeling like too much, without it feeling like, you're indulging to the point where you're like ruining the fun of this. Because there's also the whole ongoing theme of like, how far do you push art to make your point? That's kind of like the whole structure of the show, right?

With the, that's what doggie's doing. It's like pushing these characters to try and make something interesting out of the show. They're all like pushing and pushing. And that last episode, just being like a complete left field like just how do you even describe it just asher just wakes up and he's like gravity's inverted for him yeah and that just comes out of nowhere in the 10th episode there's like vague setup but only in terms of like yeah sometimes you've got to make an extreme point to prove your art it's like mentioned previous episodes ago um but it's not like they're

setting up oh there's a device or the the curse that's part of the curse and we've gone yeah you Yeah. Done the research and there's the backstory for the curse and it makes gravity turnoff. It's that's not important. It wasn't over explained or anything. It legitimately just catches you off guard. Exactly, yeah. In a way that was kind of reminded me of Magnolia with the frog thing.

Yeah. Even though that was like directly alluded to, it's more like what it brings out of this immediate set of characters and like forces them in a moment through something so extreme happening, they will have to like face something or force to deal with something. Yeah. And it's also, it fits in lines, sorry, it fits in line with the ideas that I was communicating earlier. There's several scenes in the show, like I would love to rewatch this. I'm sure that we'll pick up on more on a rewatch.

It's definitely something you can see again, especially with the full context of everything in mind. You know, there's the scene where the guy from Captain Phillips in Goodtime, the father of the cursed daughter or whatever. Yeah, yeah. There was that scene where they got him a kyr. And the chiropractor is like, no, no, it's okay. Cracking his neck. And he's like, oh, no, stop. I don't want to.

That was horrifying. That still fits in line with the ideas and themes of like, oh, there's, you're doing something saying you're helping someone, but you're making it worse. And someone is telling you that not to do it. And they're telling you what they need, but you're ignoring it. And then that exact same thing happens to Nathan Fielder's character with him being on the tree. And he's like, no, I need exactly this. And they're like, oh, yeah, sure.

whatever, and they're just being really patronizing and not listening to him. And that winds up being the end of his character, is him having the exact same thing he's been doing to other people, him and Emma Stone and everyone have been doing to other people, is just happening to him by the end of it. Yeah, this whole, like, performative nature of how they conduct themselves and what they're doing. Like, all the way down to, I thought it was hilarious that when it eventually gets to the point where Emma Stone is pregnant and the second it becomes a risk for their child in that stupid eco house, they like install air conditioning.

Oh, yeah. They're pressurized one room. Everything's just a facade. Everything's, they're just doing it for a show. And not just a show, but their life is a show. And then sometimes we even see like the reflection of, you know, the mirrors on the outside and how it's kind of like almost like a fun house mirror. And you see Nathan Fielder's character and it's all like warped and it's like, okay,

like the internal reflection of the character. There's something a lot more ugly there than what he's putting on for the rest of the world and even the the concept of The base concept of having these characters be Trying to make a show for HGTV and having them being like okay. Yeah, we're doing such great things in this community When they know that they're not and they know that they're lying to themselves and they have to do all of these fake things like okay, we're keeping these stores open so it doesn't seem like we're gentrifying we're paying this to be open We're we don't want to the cops to be called if people are stealing stuff from here. All of these phony facades that they build up around themselves to try and just have this consistent image. I think it's absolutely

perfect that they chose to make these characters reality TV show personality. Because that's what a lot of reality TV show is. And that's, you know, we were talking about baby reindeer. There's a reason why I'm skeptical of everything I see in media. A lot can be lied. You know, a lot can just be made up. Reality TV show, especially when the whole goal of it is just to get people to click, get people to watch. So much of it is scripted, so much of it is made up. There's the, you know, that whole thing where she was like, oh, that thing we did was just really funny where you took off my sweater. Let's do that again, but for social media.

And then they try to recreate it. But it's just not the same. And then it's just so phony and like, damn, it's. So much of what they communicate and express through this show, it feels consistent, but it's also really fun. And I love the awkwardness. And I love the character-study nature of it. And they're super interesting. And there's so much to chew on in every moment of this film, whether it's character, whether it's presentation and framing, whether it's, you know, performance and music. Like, it's, it's just absolutely filled with things that I love. And I, I found myself glued to the show.

I binged it within like two days. I did the first half in one day and the second half and another day. And it just flew by. Like, it's, it's something where, you know, I never needed to like check the time. And I never felt like thinking about something else. I was just into it, locked in. And, and that's it. Yeah.

Like, I was just in it. I was down for what they were showing me. I was just into it. I started off liking it and was like in love with it by the end. Because I was looking to show up after the fact after I finished it. I was kind of disappointed by, you know, how little kind of engagement or conversations it's got broader. Like even just comparing like the numbers attached to baby reindeer compared to the curse and like how many people it seems like have seen it. I think there is.

something kind of inaccessible about it to a broader audience yeah it was also not on a bigger network like fucking showtime yeah it should have been on HBO on it's yeah and it's for some reason yeah it should have been on HBO I had to watch it on Paramount plus in the UK whatever that means so yeah it's a shame it's kind of been like buried or hidden the way it is and I suppose I don't know it inherently kind of appeals to a a certain type of person already. But yeah, I think it was by like episode two or three where I was trying to, I kind of understood the tone, the pace that was going for, that kind of, that awkwardness and what it's,

what it's building to, what it is exploring. It's not that I never disliked it. It was just more like trying to figure out where it was going, what it was doing, knowing that it is, you know, nearly 10 hours long. It's just like a different structure, I guess, especially for, like, like a safety thing, a half-safty thing. Yeah. Well, I mean, for people that aren't, for people that aren't like in love with the same things that we might be, right, that aren't, the average person and, you know,

it's the average person watching something isn't going to be thinking about things like the way that a shot is framed. They're really not. And I love seeing things like, And I love connecting these puzzle pieces in a way where everything fits and it fits exactly for the story that they're trying to tell. And so to a lot of people, they might just see this show and they might just not pick up on like the ironic nature or they might just see it as like a lot of talking, you know, because it is a lot of talking. Exactly. Yeah. It's mostly just like the entire thing is just dialogue aside from some moments and the final episode. Yeah, yeah. And it's very rewarding. if that's up your alley and you are paying attention.

I just, yeah, I just couldn't help it think about someone putting this on and watching the first episode, maybe expecting something a little bit different. Because the only thing I knew about this before going in was that Nathan Fielder was in it, and he had some micro penis. That's all I knew. That's funny that you knew that. About the whole show. I don't even know how I knew that.

Yeah, I've had to say what you told you. I do that. I knew that one fact, but that was it. And I had other people, I was talking about it too, when I started watching it, and they thought it was like a horror thing because of the name, The Curse. I was like, oh, when's it going to become like a horror? Well, it kind of is. It, like, teases it.

Yeah. It's like a psychological horror element in the background. And you're never really sure if the curse is real. Well, exactly, yeah. And there's that line from the obscure, um, Captain Phillips fellow we say stop talking about the curses if you some of these things if you just transfix on them enough you can like You can make yourself do something or be you know just manifest craziness Just just stop and that that is part of what makes the Nathan field the character so fascinating is it kind of breaks him

It's like little carpet in this curse on him because of him being based Who did the chicken and but he but it was like it was completely instigated by himself he was being like one of those tick-tock-assholes that does like a giving a homeless person a hundred dollars yeah yeah and then like they they stop filming and then go get it back because just because he didn't have change it's like he's the same guy in the eco house he's driving a Tesla around oh yeah it's like his wife can just enforces that performative nature take 400,000 dollars from her parents at any fucking moment yeah yeah and like uh just that whole scene where they're trying to sell they're struggling to find a

seller for the house and they wind up just basically paying random people off the street to just pretend that they're buying the real house because the only seller they can actually get is this guy is clearly like a Republican or someone who doesn't align with Emma Stone specifically on the political spectrum. Yeah, because it wouldn't look good for the show. Like he shows up to the viewing in a big truck. Yeah, exactly. And she's like really cold to him and like won't shake his hand and like tries to. I don't know. It just there's a lot of like truths to these. performative ways yeah uh people box themselves in or yeah like just nathan fielder being a micro penis like cuck guy it's so funny props for that level of self self deprecation like he's the first thing

he like does on this scale and this like character he plays it's like this like the worst person ever with a micro penis and and is a cuck as well and he's like it's so self-deprecating but what they do with it and like the psychological levels they take it like that yeah I was dying in the comedy class stuff with him hell yeah like that comedy that shot was like where the camera's like awkwardly like tilting around or whatever and he's like waiting his turn in this like really awkward improv class and just his purposefully awful timing of like trying to make the class laugh it's like so cringe worthy it's so awesome that that's straight out of peepshire.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then everybody like gets offended by it and then the, you know, the, and then gets kicked out. Yeah. Comedy teacher is egging him on, but then later tries to pass the blame on to him. He's like, well, I don't know, it was you, you made people uncomfortable.

And I got to say, um, I was really impressed with Nathan Fielders's performance, actually, like, in the scenes where he had to bring out like a real level of like frustration and angst. Yeah. And like anger. He was really good at doing that, like in that scene with the comedy instructor where like he can't hold it in anymore and he like breaks. And there's a few moments in the show like that like his performance where he leaves the show after the screening of their reality show. And he leaves the room and comes back in and has this like, pitiful speech to Emma Stone, I guess. Um, the performance he brings out there is like, so convincing, so real.

And he really committed himself to it. And it's like, I just think that that trilogy of actors and those characters like bounce off each other so well and they're bringing out just like top tier performances out of each other. Yeah, that's just a real joy to watch these, especially those three leads like bouncing off each other. Yeah, I can see some people being like off put by Nathan Fielder's performance. I'm kind of used to how he talks.

and there's a lot of like him himself in there if you're familiar with Nathan for you in the rehearsal but he did a really great job and and you know like he wasn't unconvincing he just has a weird way of talking communicating that is like fairly consistent throughout the things that he's in yeah yeah and even just like

in that last episode on a physical level I was like a good physical performance him like crawling around like selling the situation he's in I thought that was really well handled at the end there Yeah it's super How do you think they

Just the the visual effects And the way they achieved that last episode I thought was quite impressive It was super ambitious Very ambitious And they definitely pulled it off And Nathan directed that episode too Like he's really shown up

Like he had a plan. He figured out how to create those effects logistically in ways that are super convincing and realistic and just like very impressive and like awe inspiring just to watch. Yeah, they really commit as well. Like having the whole reality TV show within the show. And whenever they cut to clips from the show, it's like shot like, shot like. shot like an actual reality TV show they're using different cameras it's like lit differently so when they're cutting between like the actual reality TV show and then scenes of the narrative

within the show so yeah it's like letterbox is a different look to it different lighting oh yeah so it's dedicated to that kind of stuff yeah apparently they use like really like cheap digital cameras for the main sections just to give it a particular look and feel Yeah, yeah, I looked it. I also just love the like, um, the, the reeling back, like, talking about the, the nature of how you build something that's entertaining. Like, I love the sit down. This is a frictionless show, like, conversation with Emma Stone and like trying to convince her that the real story is the, this kind of failure of a marriage that they've got themselves into. The, uh, the doggie character tries to exploit. Yeah, that's fun. And like all the awkwardness and the humor and the tension that comes from that. Yeah. And yeah, like when they're just like so many like creative little details like when

they're showing the rough cut of the show. And like they're putting in little like editor's notes or like temp VO and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. These like nerdy little details that like that really sells that this is part of the process and like you're showing this part of the process and building it into the show and making it like a meta commentary in a way and like showing how you're basically shown

every perspective of like how this was shot how you can change the intent of like the way people say things in the moment and how fake it can be and how you can yeah just be disingenuous in the same way they are and there is something really satisfying about seeing something come together

like that that you're there to see being created even though it's like a layered fictional thing within a fictional thing. Like, you know, almost like, I was going to say the title of a movie, but I guess that's a spoiler for that movie, so I won't. But, you know, things that are about kind of like the production of movies within a movie, they can be so satisfying seeing things come together. There was a little, I think it was like 10 minutes.

There was like a segment of the Philopanthropy pilot first look. sort of thing, like the fake show on Nathan's YouTube channel, and they released it like halfway through the series, I think. You should check that out at some point if you haven't. It's on Nathan Fielder's YouTube channel. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know about that. That's cool. It's pretty funny. It's not like, you know, it's nothing that's like, oh, this is necessary to understand anything in the show or anything. So you don't worry, you're not. Just a nice, yeah, I love how, you know, the show's called the curse. And, you know, from episode one, all the way through the entire series. There's this kind of underlying idea of, like, is he being cursed? And did the

chicken disappear? And did someone put the chicken in the thing? And I love how, you know, that serves its function narratively and emotionally to give that idea of tension and also the humorous tension where it's like, okay, this is just kind of silly. It's just about chicken. But he's taking it so seriously. But the music is communicating something much more seriously in an ironic tone. And there's like a satirical nature to it. But I love how they even tie that concept in with the themes of, you know, the whole gentrification and philanthropy and condescension looking down on other people who are either from a different race or impoverished because they're so detached and out of touch. And so they wind up saying things like Emma Stone and Nathan Fielder, they go to

the guy's house and they just assume, I guess, because he's... he's from a different country, allegedly, or they thought he was, like, oh, are you big into, like, curse stuff? Like, do you, like, do voodoo? I forget the exact lines, but they, they treated it as this whole, like, you know, someone from a different culture, there's this, like, mysticism element,

where it's just, like, they just want to be treated, like, real people. Like, just stop embarrassing yourself. Yeah, they kind of, like, infantilize it. Yeah. Like, they're very condescending. and just so pompous and full of themselves while pretending not to be. And they're like, oh, we're helping you

throughout the entire show. And it's a great exploration of character. It's so unlikable. It's a perfect show for people who love learning about and exploring other people. Because I love that so much at it. Like, a movie or a show can have varying degrees of, you know, purposeful citizens.

cinematography or music or any element that I would consider to be, you know, like a subjective measurable quality from my own perspective. But if there's like a really meaty, interesting character there

and they're consistent and they're written in a way where I'm able to learn more about them and they're unique and they're not me and it's fun because they're not me and they're so detached from the person that I am but it feels like a real person and I'm like, oh yeah, I've seen that type of person.

know that that type of person exists. Yes. I was about to say the exact same thing. And they're exploring them. I love that. I love that as like a writing exercise to try and understand and empathize with other people who you're not and get something out of their characters and try to approach like what would they do in this scene?

How do they act? How do they feel about the world? It's not relatable in a sense that, you know, we don't feel like these characters. We're detached from them because there's so much wrong with. them in terms of how they view the world and how they approach situations. But they do in a consistent enough way that I'm able to feel this fun sense of like almost like maybe not quite role-playing, but just like exploration of a character. I love learning about people. I love seeing people and feeling like I'm getting a real experience out of a character. And this show provides

exactly that for me it tickles that part of my brain yeah yeah and me they just adds so much depth of these characters so like if you just take like Dougie for example it starts at like the most surface level the costume design the hair design like I love those choices with that that wig the facial hair or the like jewelry he's wearing gives him a certain kind of like he presents himself a certain way driving that sports car around nine rings on his hands yeah every every finger has a He drives his sports car around. He has this this oversharing nature to him where he does it towards the end with the fireman.

He has this trauma, I guess, with his wife who died in a car accident because he was during driving. Yeah. That quirk he has whenever he's driving around, bringing out the breathalyzer while he's driving. It's fun to call that a quirk. Well, yeah. His obsession. Problem he has. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's like, this is a damaged character. Oh, very much so. And the way it is coming out, the way it explodes in the end once he realizes that he wasn't listening to Asher in the tree. And like, yeah, going back to the oversharing thing, he like says in that moment that it's like, this was like a self-serving thing. It was for me. And it's like the first time he admits to the audience at least that there maybe is some more self-awareness buried in there that he's not really faced. And that's like a really heartbreaking sad scene, even though these characters, they're not really built to be relatable like that because they are just such like borderline sociopaths at points with some of the stuff they're doing. But yeah, you're right.

There's just there's enough truth in there. Like I've met Dougie before, you know? I've met Asher. I've met these people. Yeah. Or like hints of these people and these types of people and these kind of ways of conducting themselves or this like performative. thing people put on to try and prove themselves or to try and undo the deeds of the parents or whatever it might be.

Yeah. There is so much to chew on. Those are some of the most fun characters to explore is a character that is putting on a performance for the rest of the world and acting completely unlike how they are on the inside. But you're given enough clues throughout their story and how they conduct themselves and how they express themselves to know that they're bullshit or. and to see through the bullshit.

And especially when that culminates in, you know, we talked about Magnolia the last episode, kind of like Tom Cruise's character. It culminates eventually in seeing like a more direct and more explicit exposure of their vulnerabilities by the end of it. That's always super fun. I really enjoy that type of thing.

We should talk a bit. Do you have like kind of an interpretation of the ending and what that would mean? Because I've read a few things online and I've had some conversations about it and there seems to be some, you know, hints and deeper things and connections here and there. I just want to know. I don't have any deep theories as to the anti-gravity thing outside of the idea of like, yeah, let's, we've been playing with this concept of how far we'll push our art to make a point. like with the native artist with the turkey and the cutting it off and eating it thing. I love that.

Her explanation of that to Emma Stone and that like she's trying to hide like the look of horror because she ate the meat and after that description of her thing, it's like a piece of herself and that's like what her culture has had to experience and go through, how painful that is. But as far as I don't know, to be honest, as far as like what that means beyond Yeah. He, I don't know, he seemed to kind of be like living a lie. He's not being able to face his reality. So being like just pulled out of it.

And it seemed to me like a fun, creative way to, yeah, mostly force these characters to come to terms of something. And yeah, I'm curious though, like, what do you read about this or what you've thought about this? I only finished this a couple days ago, so I'm still thinking about it and breaking it down. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's a few different discussions online. Some people are theorizing that Asher got reincarnated as the baby.

And I think that I can see why people believe that. There's a few different moments in the show, like when they're with the, what is it, an OB, G, Y, N, or whatever. Where they're with a doctor and they're, like, discussing her, like, first pregnancy and stuff. And then Nathan's like, I could be the baby. I'm a baby. Like he says he there's like three or four different points throughout the show where he's like talking about being a baby and in those moments you kind of just assume like okay this is just kind of like a funny

Like an awkward attempt to humor Yeah moment where he's like being uncomfortable and then people are kind of like trying to tie that into that I don't think that he like I guess there's room for it in the sense that like it doesn't explicitly state it either way I don't my interpretation wouldn't be that he is literally reincarnated as the as the baby but that for Emma Stone's character, that she was essentially her goals as a character and what she needed to get out of her own life,

she was infantilizing not just Asher, but everyone around her. And she's been doing this through her whole goal as a character of trying to do this fake philanthropy, sort of thing. Like the entire point of her character is, is not just to fill her own ego, but I guess technically kind of also still, that she's trying to feel as though she's helping people. She's trying to convince herself as though she's helping people.

She's trying to feel needed and have a purpose and feel useful in her life. And I think part of the reason why, you know, they're in this relationship with each other. And there's clearly so much about their relationship that doesn't work. their sex life is not great. They're like fantasizing about other people even in those sexual scenarios. And it seems like they don't love each other. She's got all of these like moments

where she is so frustrated with him and doesn't respect him. And she quickly and easily takes Benny Safdi's character's advice to, you know, throw a wrench in the relationship and make it worse and try to explore, the idea of her wanting to leave and she was just as soon as that idea was mentioned she was like oh yeah yeah let's go for it didn't really care how it would affect Asher there's clearly some

tension between them but they stay together and and she you know remember when nathan was like on the bed like pleading with her and it's like no i'll change like i'll do whatever and he even literally says like as soon as you don't need me anymore i'll disappear or whatever or as soon as you don't want me around or just disappear like I won't say anything. So it's like her having the baby, I think, in my perspective, now she doesn't need Asher

because she has another thing that she can kind of nurture and care for in this way where it is like an unconditional love or she feels like she can protect something. She feels like she can actually do good and she can tell herself that she's doing something for someone else. And that's like that's one of the you know most basic or most common ways that a human being can do that is is have a child and be like, no, I'm I'm useful. I'm doing something good for someone else and I am needed and I'm a good person sort of thing. And so I think that the baby existing, like it's not necessarily, oh, Asher is literally the baby. But what Asher was to her is now being replaced by the baby. And so now now she's,

She doesn't need him anymore. He disappears, literally, like he said the episode before, just in a different way than, you know, not the way that we would have expected. And so, yeah, she, whatever role that Nathan was fulfilling for her in her life is now being replaced by the baby.

Yeah, that makes sense. Also, it feeds into that performative nature of, I remember that scene where the show's producers are talking about. So when you're going to have a, baby or make you so much more relatable to the general audiences and it's so so there's that motive because before that the idea of them having a kid is like kind of absurd with how yeah they're talking about like breaking up there's like a whole time jump in order to get to that baby so yeah that's quite a good way of summarizing that relationship he is he has been kind of infantilized and they're not on like

they don't see each other as equals that's that's for sure in that relationship yeah and even when they presented that in the show in one of the re-edits, they wound up just like every queen needs her jester. He's like, just showing him as pathetically as possible. Like, I'm trying to take comedy classes and then like the funny silly music while he's like trying to make jokes in the car and stuff. Like she knows everything that's going on. But she, she's with him because he needs her, right? And even says, like in one of the confessionals to the camera, like, what would you do without her? Like, I just couldn't live without her. Right. And she feels some sort of, She feels more self-worth, whether internally or externally or both, whether it's for everyone or for her or both simultaneously.

She feels as though she's doing some sort of good philanthropic sort of thing by just being with him like, oh, he needs me. And now the baby is there. Someone else needs her in maybe more extreme ways, right? Like literally you need someone to take care of you as a baby. And so, yeah, the purpose has now been fulfilled with him out of the picture and the baby in the picture. And I found it really interesting also. So some people even talk about the idea of the curse being real in the sense that, like, perhaps the chicken curse was real and curses are real. Because in the previous episode, when he's dropping off, he's being dropped off by Benny Safdi's character. Benny Safdi literally says, I curse you, right? And he says that kind of to himself in his car.

What's funny that some people pointed out is Benny's character before he says, I curse you, he literally says the word fly. Because Nathan was like, oh, what was that? Like, is he like slams on the, the... Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. And he says fly as in the word for a buzzing fly, but he, you know, like... A bug, yeah. Let's imagine that because he said the word fly and then said, I curse you,

that the curse perhaps it was Benny's curse that made him fly up. And then we can also connect that into the idea of the whole house flipping. Like Nathan's character literally got flipped. Like he flipped, flip Anthropathy sort of thing.

Like a lot of really nice little puzzle pieces that fit into what the story is that they're trying to tell and how things that fit thematically. And I love just seeing things connect and yeah it's really interesting and they also kind of leave room for the interpretation like maybe it was just a dream because remember right before they refuse the dream catcher from the Native American that was oh because it says made in China on it yeah yeah yeah they're

like oh we don't want that it says made in China he literally gave them a dream catcher and then they refused it and it happened right after he woke up so it's one of those things where it's like whether it's literal or non-literal doesn't really matter and there's room interpretation-wise for both possibilities. It's just what they're showing. All of these sound reasonable one way or another, yeah. Yeah, it's what they're showing and what they're trying to communicate

with what they're showing and what is it trying to say? What are we getting out of it, right? Yeah, well, my mind's racing now. These lines I've written down, like, there's a little me inside of you and like just weird stuff that stood out to me in the moment. but I wasn't like linking together and that kind of stuff or even like Emma Stone's reaction after seeing the baby and then they ask about Nathan Fielder's character and she's like yeah like you can find out about she's not that first I guess is the point yeah yeah emphasizes

that idea she doesn't need him anymore because the baby exists yeah his purpose is now spent that's brutal yeah and then some people have even said like you know maybe Nathan was the curse like the curse has been lifted like literally lifted like he's out of the picture and things are fine yeah yeah and that last episode that whole the whole mr. rec with that like cooking show is like such a surreal funny scene like guy from soprano is making his meatballs and like they're in the background like they're trying to they're trying to big up the fact that they're like pregnant and having a baby and it's like not really being mentioned enough and then that awkward smile they're holding like when it cuts away from the studio and it's like them in their house and like the

cameraman's just awkwardly like just they're all just there looking like zombies uh just reenhancing this this performative thing they're always putting on and then they're in the dialogue complaining about how they didn't really bring up the baby why don't they talk about the baby very but like all their motivations are in the wrong place yeah all these all this emphasis is clever in retrospect to try and put together so as soon as Nathan field characters out of the picture. We get the, what I was mentioning earlier with the cinematography and the very intentional distance to each shot, we get the first sequence in the entire show where there's a camera

like moving through spaces, like we see the camera going through the hospital, we return to some of the older locations that we've seen throughout the show in a completely new lens, literally, not zoomed in. You can see, you know, like the focal length and the distance of the camera is much closer, and you get like this much more wide perspective of things. And so it's like, you know, perhaps the curse has been around the entire show and the framing of the show and the claustrophobic nature and distance between the characters and weird kind of foreboding way of communicating the cinematography. as soon as Nathan Fielder's character is dead, like that's lifted, right?

We now see everything through a different perspective, and it's like the curse has been lifted in a sense. Yeah. It's very interesting. And then like the ultimate punchline of having, after Nathan flies into space, there are just random people from the neighborhood, like, watching. And it just focuses on a couple of random people in the crowd. And they're like, how'd they do that?

That's for TV. Yeah, it must just be for a show. Yeah, exactly. They're just kind of saying, like, no one would believe you anyway if the curse was real. It's kind of, I guess, like, the point. And also, they're literally doing it for a show. Like, they were literally. It is for show, yeah.

Yeah. Like, literally. Yeah. And just like that, in that Dougie breakdown where he's talking about his dad, he's talking about, like, fatherhood. and he says something like for a guy it's so abstract which I didn't I wasn't really putting together the whole

yeah Nathan Fielder just being apparent to and all of these links with the Emma Stone pregnancy SMO God there is a lot to impact here yeah I'm gonna enjoy it even more on a second watch I think just knowing where everything's headed and what ideas are being communicated and and

knowing that they leave all these little clues and nice little treats throughout the show. Because, yeah, I don't care who you are. You're not predicting that last episode. It's not, you can't. You can't. You can't figure it out. And not in a way yet, yeah, not in a way that's unsatisfying.

It's more like, this is so entertaining and so like out of left field in a way that feels perfect. And is, yes, entertaining on its own, on a surface level anyway. That hadn't even begun like deconstructing it to that level. but there is so much meat on the bone there. Like, yeah, I thought especially those last two episodes, so they were like 10 out 10 to me. But yeah, I thought they were incredible the way it crescendoed to those last two

and just the unpredictable nature of it, how just unusual and surreal and strange that is to just spin everything on a dime like that and not go too far to, like, ruin these three main characters and, yeah, not finish their arcs or conclude. in a way that feels satisfying. So, no, this is perfect of this story. Yeah, I fucking loved it. Would gladly watch it again.

Would gladly binge it again. Please release a Blu-ray or some shit. You fucking... Assholes. We'd love to own it physically. But, yeah, for now, giving it a 9 out of 10, I could see it going up to a 10 on a second watch.

We'll see. Absolutely love. that one of the best shows I've seen in a very long time. Awesome job. And I'm super hyped for whatever Nathan works on next. And I think there's going to be rehearsal season two. Like, I don't know. Whatever he does, I think he's, I think he might be teaming up with Benny again or Amist.

I don't remember what I heard, but whatever he does next. I hope so. He's on a role. He is on a role because this stuff is awesome. That was a great collaboration. And they worked together super well. glad, I'm glad that they shared a singular vision and I'm glad that both of their strengths complimented each other in a way to create something that was new and I had never seen

before and it worked and yeah, it was incredible. This was fucking awesome. Yeah. The only things that was reminding me of was like awkward British comedies but they don't have this like narrative like this or the commitment to the, this tone and having like this weird unsettling since score and hour long episodes and yeah it's like a completely different thing to achieve um super ambitious very admirable this is this is awesome yeah yeah did i say my score i guess no the same as you um yeah nine at 10 four

and a half star incredibly solid i yeah that combo is just makes sense in retrospect but is very unpredictable as far as how how well the field is safety thing. Yeah. Works. I had no idea what to expect, but I'm very impressed. Yeah. And yeah, absolutely loved it. Please go check it out. It's definitely worth your time. All right, we had a

recommendation. You did have a recommendation. I'm looking forward to this one, man, Rogue 1. Nice. I'm going to take you back. Man, nearly a decade now. What we do here is go back. Oh, man. So yeah, this has been interesting to revisit because this, well, it's a bunch of reasons, right?

So 2016, this was, this followed right after the Force Awakens, Star Wars, would they come back for, there was, the irony of this film being about like hope and ending on the, on the word hope and that being like an ongoing theme throughout this movie is funny now in retrospect and, uh, ironic. but um yeah i guess disney and the audiences hadn't realized yet quite what disney had in store they had this they were exuding this idea that they were exuding this idea that they knew what they needed to do and they had the right people and the right focus um this was pre the last jedi so pre it all like falling apart i guess for them optically uh this is like considered i think still to this day like the the one the bright spot I guess because people there's some like revisionism on the Force Awakens now and that's like changed with time but this one is the one I guess the rogue one that's kind of stayed the same it's like well at least we got rogue one out of this

least we're there at least we got that Rogue one at least we got this uh 200 million dollar fan fiction uh yeah and uh and but I got complicated complicated feelings about this Because while I do feel that way, and I feel that, I think it's fair to categorize all of the Disney-era style of stuff as just like $200, 300 million fan fiction for the most part. Because I don't know, I just, I can't stop thinking about that. I think it was in the Red Letter Media Review for the Force Awakens where Rich Evans says something along the lines of like, there's just, there's not, there's not enough to this IP to really justify where we're going with this, you know? where like in the 70s and the 80s we kind of explored this and this is something that is rooted in the past this is I don't know how much a room there is to this hero's journey into is the world really that good and like so ripe to explore Or is it just with with so nostalgic and attached to this IP we just can't let it die

and I think a lot of it is that it's a cultural institution It is a cultural institution, and it's very weird talking about this film now because there was this real excitement, this like palpable excitement when Disney took over. It seems like so obvious and crazy to say now, but there was like a hope. It was like, oh, George Lucas doesn't have it now. Now there's hope for something, which it sounds so crazy to say now because it's like, why would any of us believe or trust Disney in any way or form with the way they conduct and use their IP? But yeah, I guess the impetus for this movie was that in the movie from 77, there was a line, a throwaway line that George Lucas wrote about there being a weakness in the Death Star event that was left there that most people considered a plot hole. So I guess someone at Lucasfilm thought it would be a good idea to write a whole story and movie around the idea of why that was part of the death. star and how they got the plans in order to destroy it to begin with.

So many people that, you know, nerd-raged or nerd theorized and wondered maybe what that looked like, yada, yada, yada, yada. And then you wind it with Rogue One, Gareth Edwards. And I don't know, I'm really torn on this movie because there's, and I'm glad we're talking about this post the series Andor, which features the character Cassian, who is in. in this movie who's kind of the semi, maybe once in the screenplay was like a love interest type character, Han Soloy, grayish rebel dude, who in this movie doesn't have much to do and isn't really fleshed out, not like, well, like most of the characters in the movie,

are pretty flat. But the potential of what this could have been is explored in the show Andor, which is a show I will defend to this day as actually having good writing even though this is the impetus and this is not a film I'd point out to say this is an example of good writing and I think the writing is actually pretty bad in this film if we're talking about dialogue if we're talking about characters the strengths of this film to me are pretty much it feels reverse engineered it feels like they had this idea for the battle of scariff this whole like set piece at the end on this tropical evoking like Vietnam kind of imagery battle big like heist pretty much that is the

movie to me and it feels like they had that and they had this idea for like a big setpiece war inspired you know that's the movie but uh-oh we got the gareth edwards problem where we got to pick like a perspective character to see this world through and we've just picking like the most boring flattest way to do that you could pretty much put all the all the characters in this movie in a roulette wheel take the lead one out and you'll have like a more fun perspective character in my opinion uh there's just nothing to her as as like a lead her performance was the worst out of everyone she her line delivery was awful she's got nothing to do and it's extra annoying it's like her dad is kind of the interesting character he's the one with

attention he's the one who like he's the one he's the one he builds the floor into the into the death star it's mad's moccerson he's got that gravitas when he's on screen kind of looks like a samurai with the robes and everything he's got the look he's got the there's a thing when I talk about star wars where like some actors get it and some don't I feel like mad's is one of those that gets it he gets to the like pulpiness at the right level, the campiness. I don't know if Felicity Jones has that. Um, yeah, it just, it's not the right perspective to look at it through. And the film, like literally for me it takes, I noted it down the minute, it takes like 50 minutes for it to start like clicking for me in any way, because

the first act is a, uh, who is messy. And, uh, it jumps around a lot. Holy crap. There's, There's like a segment 15 minutes in where for like 10 minutes, every minute is like jumping to a different location, establishing something new, and it's just like dropping this awkward exposition. And it's got like the most clunky, awkward buildup and pace for that beginning. And like really, really lacks like a structural focus. And I don't know. I feel like this, what this movie should have looked like is what we wound up getting with Top Gun Maverick pretty much, where it's like, we're all here. We're all here. Let's just admit why we're here, right? We're just here for like dog fights and the typical kind of like style was stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's like a, you get the action figures and you have the set pieces and it's all about like the scale of the effects and like we're showing off. It's a toy commercial. Yeah.

Yeah, it definitely is a toy commercial. But that is where the stuff I like about the movie more comes in. It's like there's not, there's not nothing to appreciate about the movie. You sure? I think the way it crescendo is towards the end with that action set piece on that planet, where you've got the three different action set pieces happening at the same time. We've got like a dog fight happening in the air, a heist happening on the planet, and then like a ground like assault as well, and it's like cutting in between them and like building tension as it's cutting between them.

That works for me. And there's like a scale to that and there's something cool about that. me and I even found there's a there's actually a fan cut of this was a note down what it's called the maple cut which which cuts it carves out my maple it carves this movie down to 40 minutes I think it's just the name of the fellow who yeah who edited the cut editors edits down this whole movie to 40 minutes which is pretty much just like the last like battle set piece with like some more of the old sound effects and more of the classic music and honestly that

there's something about that cut that's like, yeah. I think you kind of pinpointed what this is. Because really, to make this work, it needed to focus more on one plane of intent. Because it was still at this point, this was the first, I guess, big Star Wars movie that wasn't... One of the big ones, you know, with your Luke Skywalker's or whatever. It's like a spin-off movie, if you're not counting that stupid, like Clone Wars animated thing that no one saw. So this one was confused by the tone. It was like, so what does a Star Wars movie look like outside of the more campy heroes journey?

Lightaber stuff is taking way more of a, I don't know, like a traditional war movie, like on the ground kind of approach. But it's trying to juggle both. So you have this like awkward pandering kind of tone that Andor somehow manages to shed and keeps it consistent. it's not like losing itself in these references and like especially the references like some of them are so so egregious it's a trap and that's not even like the that's not even the that's not even the one that comes to my mind there's so many and there's so many problems with the way they do it and it's so like clunky and kind of misses the point it needed it needed a laser focus on the perspectives that you couldn't there there are scenes that are so bad with that stuff

the you said it in the intro the don't choke on your aspirational That scene on the lava castle is like so bad. Not just down to that dialogue, but the way it's shot and presented it's, there's like a huge drama behind this movie and theories about like what was shot in pickups and what was restructured and who's, who gets the credit. Is it Gareth Edwards or Tony Gilroy? Because Tony Gilroy came in as like, well, it's like, it's like not, not, fully confirmed but there's like rumblings and it's all like hidden with like these contracts and different egos and different theories that people have put together but the current theory is that gareth edwards director's cut was like a bit of a mess which doesn't surprise me that much with

what some of his other movies are like um you know be at godzilla or his latest science fiction thing and it was all over the place so i guess in a panic they brought in tony gilroy to write some new scenes, do some pickups, try and turn this into something. So a lot of people credit that last section and the way it comes together, more so to Tony Gilroy and getting that working,

with the evidence being that Tony Gilroy conceptualized and wrote all of Andor, which is of a consistent quality that I would defend, and that I would recommend, and is a lot better than this film. It's actually weird watching it now because I haven't seen it in a long time. And that show fleshes out these characters

and is written in a way that doesn't feel like I've got to be dancing and all these caveats. Because for every time I bring up something positive in this movie, there's going to be a caveat, something bad, like, they just didn't have the restraint. They didn't have that restraint in them at all. Like, they'll do something kind of cool, right? Like, oh, Grand Moff Tarkin has to be in this movie, right?

Because he's in the 70s one and he's so directly link in the power structure of this villainous force or whatever. So yeah, you have the Ben Mendelssohn, awesome character actor, he's got to go meet Graham Moff Tarkin. They don't use him very well. Oh, no, no, yeah, I was about to get to it. They're like introducing him and it's like, they're keeping it restrained to the back of the

character. It goes up to the reflection of his face in the glass of the ship that he's looking at. And it's like, that would be an awesome place to cut. Let's cut it there. Oh, but then the short just keeps going. And then the CG monstrosity turns around and starts monologing. And then you're like, oh, no. That didn't age very well.

Damn it. No. And that was distracting when it came out too, but that was one of the like, people could look past that, I guess. But I, that really bugs me. That decision. I really, the only time that's really worked for me off top of my head is in Blade Rummer 2049.

Yeah. And there was some, you know, purposeful intent to that. that it was supposed to kind of make you feel off and not hit right. And it still looked better. But this is like, and it still looked better. But it just straighter ruins any scene. If they're actors, they can't bounce off this and it's just, it's always there in the front of your mind.

It's so distracting. And if there's something show offy about it, where it's like, goddammit, you're, you're prioritizing the wrong part of this, like this. You're not prioritizing the story, you're trying to just flex visual effects, which which admittedly is like part of Star Wars' thing and has always been it. But so why don't you flex it with the cool ships exploding in space? Like, why are you going to try and put these freaky monstrosities in front of me? Especially when you like, you watch these behind the scenes videos

where they find these people who can do the voice perfectly, who look really similar to him. And so you've gone to that level. You can just have a different actor. You can recast him. You can frame this more tastefully. There's so many better ways to do it. And they don't just do it that one time.

They do the same thing again, including the like, showing the character from behind. And it's like, okay, this is fairly tasteful. But it just keeps going. And at the end with the late Princess Leia's CG monster that you see. God damn it, no. You can't end the movie on that. That's too much. That is way too much.

And yet, they did. Yeah, they did. So fucking boring, dude. I'm like, I can't even sit still in my seat. I just can't deal with this shit anymore. Like, it just fucking bounces off my fucking brain. I'm so fucking done with this whole franchise. It's just, it's so boring.

It's so boring. Everything. It's, I just, yeah, it's tiring, I guess, no. You know? There's no point. There's no point to any of it. It's not like an important story or anything. Yeah, I feel like the only way this could actually work is if you took where this story goes and like this movie and the events of it were like what happens at the end of and or season three after like all these characters have been set up and they actually have like proper scenes written about them and there's something that's actually fleshed out or interesting or like a lead character that's interesting or like something that isn't just fan service to carry you.

through this. Because yeah, so much of it is like all over the place. It's literally just dude, it's Star Wars. That's it. That's the whole fucking movie. It's like, well, dude, it's Star Wars. So the entire movie is just one long fucking piss break. Man, they just play

with things that like, people would like or would like to see Explorer expanded on like taking a more like gray. Oh look, these are like extremist rebels. We got Forest Whitaker in here doing the thing. But it's like, I don't know what direction they gave him. Um, must have been

Carté Blanche though, because he's chewing the scenery hardcore. Um, I feel like that you need a little, a little bit more direction. Oh, yeah, he felt very out of place. We're just real impact, because he's, he's played that character. He is in and or is the same character, and he's fine. And it's not distracting and not weird, but there's just these like strange choices with him like he just he just sacrifices himself for for no reason he just decides and i've been fighting bitterly this whole time but now in this moment i guess i'm just i'm just gonna give up whatever save the dream yeah all this kind of stuff is like it's just ah it's just too much too much and like the the mask and the breathing and stuff and the the whole scene just like wasted

on the ball gullet guy with rizamed it's like you got these really good character actors in here, why you waste them? None of them were used properly. No, no. And that's even the thing of like, did any part of it remind you of Haley Reach at all? Because that was one of the things I liked about this back when it came out. So this is kind of like, it's kind of like Haley Reach the movie.

That's what people said, but I, yeah, I mean, just the way it ended, I guess. But like, aside from that, I didn't really, I wouldn't have come up with that connection on my own. But I was also, like, painfully. invested. I was also like every fucking 15 minutes felt like an hour. That's one thing I would give it is I guess in comparison there are stakes and it's cool to see that like villainous force actually have some kind of sway.

You're always like told in these movies how like powerful and oppressive this this empire is to actually see them succeed or something and like. People are dropping light flies and it feels like there was a significant amount of loss to actually succeed in this mission. It was something that I think a lot of people have wanted to see from this universe and like see on screen. And it's like every time they get to something that I like like the idea of like the Donny Yen character and just like sprinkling in a bit of the sort of like philosophy or force stuff. I know, it's like such a delicate balance for me with the, the referencing and the, well, is this, is it even possible to do this delicately? Or is it just done from the word go?

You know, like, I'm just having my head on my hands when like C-3Pio and like RCD2 are just there for like no reason. And it's cut and framed in a way that's more for the audience instead of like what is happening in the movie. Like there are lines that read like that where it's like they might as well be looking at the camera and saying it to the audience instead of the characters who are in the scene. It's like I don't get that feeling in Andor they actually have character moments. They have fleshed out like writing and it's like consistent and there aren't caveats. It just feels like so written backward and like a it needed to come out in 2016 with this specific zeitgeist to kind of hit the way it did. but some of the things it's like spawned as a result like all the Star Wars fans love the the hallway scene the Darth Vader scene it's so epic which apparently was a pickup

he went shun which all it's all like important within the context of like the fandom like the reason that was so uh got such a big response at that time is because I guess that a character had never actually been shown to do something like that. Yeah, because they forgot any other movies. So that wasn't itch that people wanted to see scratched. So, but then it's like fast for 10 years and it's like three or four hallway scenes later. And it's like, well, now when I go back, it's not really the same thing. So there's this, there's just this Disney patina over this that just,

It's just so far gone. It's so like milked. It's all been blue milk to such the nth degree. It's all been like so. Yeah, it has been like right up. And it's really difficult to like justify a lot of the decisions or justing it. Like this whole era of this Disney stuff is like, useless.

It's useless. We all know the facts that. But it's useless and there's no mystery or hope, I guess, anymore. Not at all. That's what I'm trying to emphasize is that when this came out, there was like a hope. There was some like confidence or like excitement. Whereas if you can contrast that with like where we are now, it's pretty sad to be honest. Like- I think there was a typo in the script they meant to say nope.

It's just, man, like, give me something you like, give me one thing you like. Nothing. There's nothing I like about it. Not a single thing. There's nothing I like about this. Not one thing. Not a single, you gotta have one thing. There's got to be something.

What should I have liked about it? Um, like, for example, I think Gareth Edwards is good with scale, presenting things of a scale in a unique way that emphasizes it in a correct way. Like, I think it's cool having the perspective of, you know, when they're on a planet, the perspective of the characters on a planet that has been shot with it with the death style beam. And then there's this enormous, like, there's that line about the horizon is gone. And this kind of, it feels big. It feels appropriate. It feels like it should.

Death style feels big. I didn't get anything out of it. Not one single thing at any point. Not one single fucking thing. I'm so done and detached from this entire fucking franchise. It's just, there's got to be something that's as annoying for you that you could imagine

like just seeing like a bullshit version of. And it's like, oh, yeah, the scale. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I guess it would be like those monster movies. Like,

Garrette was Godzilla even these kind of movies Dingle versus Kong the first one I did enjoy the let's one a lot more I don't know it's it's crazy that like this is the one you missed I guess because this was a big

doesn't matter a big deal when it came out I know yeah it's fucking Star Wars it's a Star Wars spin off it's a spin off of Star Wars. I was tricked into seeing the other ones. Like, it's a cultural conversation that everyone's participating in.

You know, and even, like, when I saw, like, episode seven. How come you saw solo? Sorry? How come you saw solo? Because I had stayed awake all night, and then I was at the mall having to do something, and then I saw that there was a movie playing and I was like, well, I should probably try to continue staying awake

so that I don't fuck up my sleep because otherwise I would have just gone home and went to bed. And I usually don't fall asleep in movies. If I'm watching a movie, I'm not going to fall asleep. And that one was like, not great. But, you know, like, these movies are better for theaters because it's loud and lots of explosions and things, right?

Yeah, it was significant. currently better in the theater from memory. Yeah, all of these movies are better in a theater. And yeah, that's the only reason I saw it. I just saw it by myself because I was at the mall after having stayed awake all night, and I don't remember why. And it was just there, and I was like, well, it's playing in 15 minutes, so, yeah, fuck it. And I guess the solo thing had the, it had the intrigue, at least, of, like, Ron Howard

taking over from Lord and Miller in that kind of weird situation. But then it pretty much turns out ironically that all of these projects were a complete mess behind the scenes, as far as production is concerned, outside of The Last Jedi. That was the smoothest one as far as production. And like the response to all of it is hilarious. Yeah. Just, yeah, the mess of it, the... All it took was 10 years. And optically, it's like completely flipped.

it feels like the franchise is kind of at this point, you know? Yeah, well, what are they gonna fucking do? They've ringed it. What do they do? Nobody likes it anymore, especially after rise of Skywalker or whatever.

They've ringed it so dry. But people are still watching, like, you're still watching Andor. Like, people are still watching the Disney Plus shit. But no, no, no one watched Endor though. That was the thing. It was, it's not considered a particularly big success. no.

Oops. They gift it. So it's like, oh, they figured it outright when the stakes were like as low as they possibly could be. You know, where it's like, oh, there's this Disney Plus show that no one has any faith in. And I guess because it was the one that had no faith in, it was kind of left to be its own little thing. So it can exist in this pocket like on Disney Plus. Whereas like this was before Disney Plus the, I don't know. It was just a different time, which is just sad in retrospect.

when some of these things came out like episode seven i watched in a theater and i enjoyed but i still wasn't like attached to anything that was happening i was just kind of like oh it's interesting let's see where this goes sort of thing like there was kind of like a hope and i was like oh it's cool that they're doing some of these old puppetry and you know physical um anatronics and blah blah blah blah, blah, like, that was cool. And then it just ultimately wound up leading to nothing and not being important. And now retrospectively, it's like, okay, well, how much do I even appreciate those choices? Right?

Was it just because the bar was set so low with the fucking prequels and everything was a green screen and CG? Was that the reason why I was like, oh, yeah, this is nice? But I'm still not attached to anything that's fucking happening. I'm still not attached to, like, the characters. I don't give a shit about any of them. I don't give a shit about the universe. Yeah. None of the aliens are fuckable.

It's really boring. Right? It's got nothing for me. It's got like absolutely fucking nothing for me. It feels like gaslighting now. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is weird to... Where the optics, though, have shifted for most of these movies.

It really hasn't with this one. This is one that's kind of stayed. But in revisiting it, like, the floors are just... They're so glaringly obvious. and they're so like I don't I don't like the 77 movie enough to make it up

It all seems so pointless These don't even exist to like tell a story of any kind It's just to remind It's literally they only exist to just be Star Wars Because that was successful You go member Star Wars and that's the only reason These things fucking exist And I wasn't even like ever attached to the original trilogy

I didn't care It's not like it's not part It doesn't occupy a space in my brain that I like care about. It just bounced off of me. And so many people are so emotionally attached to this fucking franchise. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'll give a credit here and there and like this and for its, you know, impact on blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, there's something, making it in the 70s, there's things you can appreciate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But I don't love any of these films. Like, I'm not attached to any of these films. I don't give a shit. I find the universe so fucking uninteresting. It's boring. And it was like a rip-off of Dune anyway It's doing this whole fucking biblical story Pugh-Pew

All of the fucking stormtroopers Are just wearing plastic Those are the villains Never they never fucking hit anything Until Rogue One Then they hit something Like all of the fucking tension And conflict feels forced and fake

It all just feels like a bunch of fucking idiots LARping around wearing cheap costumes Who cares? It's implied significance. Oh, the force. The force is with you. All this weird religious undertone bullshit. I'm just so uninterested.

It doesn't do anything for me. It feels like the original trilogy was kind of like a happy accident that had to happen when it did. Yeah. And like the intent of it was almost like, I mean like the one that's considered the best wasn't even directed by George Lucas and most people probably couldn't even name. Yeah, exactly. Empire. Which I don't think is a coincidence.

And there's something there's something about it. Like created this feeling in the 70s and 80s that has just lived on and there's been this obsession with trying to recreate and recapture it. But I think doing that is actually impossible. I don't know if it's possible or even a good idea. to do that. I think after the prequels kind of already illustrated that, that recapturing this is going to be an issue with new times, with new technology. It's just like, we should have learned our lesson then. And there was a period there where there was this, I don't know, everyone was kind of done. You know, like after the prequels were there, it was like wrapped up. There was this hope for like,

oh, maybe one day there'll be some other thing. And there's all this EU extended knowledge. and just fans came up with whatever they wanted to. And that was really the ideal, like, in retrospect. It was like, we should have been, that's a way more satisfying place to be left, where it's like, you know what, prequels, whatever. This is just open now. At least Disney doesn't own it. We've got the EU.

We can just sit around playing with action figures, I guess, like making up our own stuff, you know? Be inspired by it, make our own thing. But this Disney acquisition, like, opened up this floodgate of like, oh, now we can make ours. Now, now ILM can prove how much better technology is by CGing Peter Cushing. Isn't that a good idea?

Because we can do that now. You know, just like the prequels prove we can do that now. Look what we can do now. So, yeah, the story has to come first with this kind of thing. And that was ultimately the big downfall with the story's fucking boring. They just rushed. they put down billions for it and in such a like rush to try and make their money back they just

they missed out the core of well he's supposed to be the the whole point of this like I can within reason enjoy like the ships and well yeah like they could have done something as far as like a trilogy the story of the first fucking trilogy is like just basic shit anyway what do you do just tell the same story again

Do people really want to see that? I don't know, apparently a lot of people. Yeah. I don't know. There's just something about like, after that original trilogy, there's basically this whole franchise has been like farming potential. And everyone has this idea built up in the head of like what this potential is when it's like, the more you think about it's like, well, I guess the potential is the 80s movie

or Dune or alien or no matter what like whatever the knock on. effect has inspired or whatever. I don't know. This is just thinking about it now and like the whole gaslighting feeling and that, that force awakening within me, like the, just the realization that I'm sure like the 2019 Lion King emphasized for you and whatnot. Oh, there, there is no impetus here or like desire to tell a story. This is like farming something they know is valuable because so many people care about it. And there is something sad about that and I've had it happen with, you know, Mass Effect, Halo, Star Wars, all this stuff I like love growing up.

But like I guess the difference is where it doesn't really ruin anything for me as far as like, there will always be the 80s movie for me. I can disconnect it in my head. I can sift through the stuff that sucks and the stuff that doesn't. That's fine by me. It doesn't like hurt me emotionally or whatever. in the same way some people talk about this franchise, but yeah, there is something about that lost potential, I guess, that does suck, but yeah. Star Wars is responsible for everything wrong with everything that's ever happened, okay?

Sorry, every bad political take you see is just someone viewing things through the lens of Star Wars. Every bad movie take you see is just someone viewing things through the lens of Star Wars. Everything's through the lens of Star Wars. People are fucking Star Wars brained. Every dumb ass you see is Star Wars brained. Everyone. Yeah, but now that's farmed, I guess, what... We're running out of things to farm, you know?

Like, the Star Wars, it's kind of been drained. All the IPs have been drained. Like, alien Romulus is coming out. Did you even know about that? Like, I was like, my God, like, another thing's been drained. Betty Alvarez. Like what IP that has been going on since the 70s is still exciting like that? That has had consistent entries.

Dune. What is there? But the 80s Dune movie was like comically hilarious. And like it, yeah. Yeah, there is, I don't know. Something psycho about all this. Yeah, I'm just, I'm fucking done with it. So people, so the reason Alex recommended this is because I, on my.

Batman v. Superman watchalong got really pissed off and bored and I was a little drunk and I was like this is all Star Wars's fault so I rated every Star Wars film a one out of ten because I'm fucking done with the franchise like I hate it I hate the whole thing and some people are like oh how can you justify doing that the same way I justify giving Neil Breen films a 10 out of 10 which no one bats an eye for by the way no one gets offended about that no one cares about that. My ratings, as with everyone's ratings, are a combination of both what I consider to be measurable qualities like acting, cinematography, music, sound design, lighting, editing, direction, etc. Those are measurable qualities that are all fed through the lens of whoever is perceiving them. So through me,

so that is also subjective. Those measurable qualities plus my own emotional experience with said film. So in the case of Neil Breen, I can understand that there are measurable qualities to those films, or what I consider to be through my own perspective, that are bad, that are imperfect. But for something to get a 10 at a 10 rating from me, it has to be something that I truly love. And I truly love Neil Breen films. And so the amount of love that I have for those films would influence the rating so much because I love, let's say my love for the film is worth a billion points or whatever, right? It's, I, my, my emotional experience plus the measurable qualities, the emotional experience

is so high that it goes all the way to attend. For Star Wars, I love it negative a billion points. So in that same sense, sure, there are measurable qualities where, you know, like if I, if I didn't have such a hatred for this whole fucking franchise and everything related to Star Wars, and didn't consider it to be a cancerous plague upon society, then if Rogue One was like its own movie, then it's like, I don't know, four out of ten, right? Yeah.

But I'm so fucking sick and allergic to Star Wars that my emotional experience is negative a billion. So it goes down to a one, and that's the lowest rating that I can give it, and that's a perfectly valid rating that if you have a fucking issue with, if you have a fucking issue with, you're insane. You should be allowed to give something a number rating out of 10 that aligns with your emotional

experience of the film. That is not a new concept, and you are creating an exception for Star Wars because you think that there are some things that are untouchable, and there are some things that everybody has to love or has to give some sort of credit in some way. I can still give it credit, but you don't understand my hatred for this franchise. You don't understand how much my emotional experience exists to weigh in to the rating for the film. It's a genuine rating. It's a genuine rating.

I am sick of Star Wars. I am done with Star Wars. So grow up. Did you feel this way pre-Disney buying it? Or is that like the straw that broke the candles back? I felt this way as of two weeks ago. I have come to a realization about myself. because I was never really in to start

I really didn't care about it and it was always something that I felt like manipulated into pretending to care about or trying to give like some sort of like yeah you know or it's good for the time or like oh and this blah blah blah blah blah and trying to give it little bits of credit here and there understanding the entire

cultural weight and experience of everything that it inspired and blah blah blah blah blah and all these things that I'm supposed to like about it but I'm done with that and I'm coming out and I'm brave I'm the real fucking rebel, okay? I'm rogue one, and you're the empire, okay?

All of you fucking Star Wars heads, you're the Nazi empire, okay? So if you think of things in terms of your Star Wars brain, that's how you have to start thinking about this conversation, okay? I'm the rebel, and you're the simps. I'm based, and you're cringe, and every single conversation and every single thing that we view in this universe is through a simplified lens

of good and bad right? And that's what Star Wars has done. Yeah, that can be okay sometimes. Yeah, I'm allowed to do that. If you're allowed to give anything a 10 out of 10, I'm allowed to give something a 1 out of 10. Grow the fuck up.

Stop being emotionally invested in franchises to the degree where you care about whether or not somebody else enjoys it. That is my own experience with the film. I hate it. Yeah, I guess, I guess when my anger sits more, I just point it more towards Disney.

Honestly. As if those things are inseparable at this point. Well, yeah. But like, how do you pass that disconnect with the Lion King, for example? Does the 2019 version existing minimize the original in any way or take away any of that quality to you?

It makes me love the original even more. Yeah. I feel like I could make a similar kind of case for... I would still defend the 77 version and Empire at least. Those are the two. I would stand by. And yeah. Yeah, I'm not getting tricked into watching Star Wars again. No, no. Yeah, I'm with you, though. I just don't get the like emotional fervor, like the... the upset it gets to it's just so

there is something specifically about this franchise that just brings something out of people it really does I don't identify with that I don't like I've never enjoyed that as someone who's been like a long time fan of this franchise and just have a

just a childhood link to it I just can't disconnect I'm sure in the same way you can't with Lion King you know where it's like it's always going to mean something to me. Yeah, people fucking deify the franchise, right? When they see things as like institutions, as like untouchable pillars of society, it's a fucking movie. Okay? You can understand and appreciate what it's done

culturally. That doesn't mean somebody can't like it. That doesn't mean somebody can't have a legitimate distaste for it. Okay, it's my brain, it's my emotional experience. Don't try to delegitimize that. You can have your own. But you're the empire and your mom and you're cringe. And I'm based. But to reel it back and give Rogue One a score,

I'm pretty much right down the middle. If everything I like, there's something that really pisses me off and I can't, I can't let go, especially on rewatch now, there's 10 years later. It's like everything feels so different and reframed, even with how much I do enjoy Andor

and we'll defend that show too, and we'll recommend that show, actually. I've just got to, yeah, go straight down the middle for like a five out of ten. Two and a half star. It's a lot I like about it. I think there's a lot of potential in there. If these characters were fleshed out,

if these set pieces were strung together through like a perspective I cared about, or, yeah, was just given the time it needs, or was just more focused like a top gun or something. I was like not getting lost in these stupid references to the 77 version and just having this dumb shit just show off the like I don't like you either guy just showing up like stopping the whole film for like no reason just to show off this annoying small galaxy syndrome bullshit that doesn't even make sense if you think about it for more than two seconds and uh yeah yeah there's just something sad about it at this one I'm going to be generous with this one generous generous giving it a generous one out of ten. Question time. We got time for like three questions.

Let's do a couple questions here then from the Sardonicast community. Head over to the suggestion thread over on the subreddit. Where you can leave any questions like Mr. Goosey McGooseface 2 did. As you hear these composers, what score or sound comes to your mind first? So I'm just going to say these. and tell me the score you associate them with. Number one, Han Zimmer. Dark Knight, I guess.

I say, yeah, Inception. Two, Trent Resner and Atkus Ross. Which is funny, because the Lion King score is like one of my favorites of all time, but it's just like, it doesn't feel consistent with his other body of work in a way. Yeah, you're right. And there's a whole Elton John.

Like the Han Zimmer type score is very much like Christopher Nolan style when you think Han Zimmer. That's why, yeah, I think of Inception with the Bois thing and yeah yeah yeah um yeah yeah Trent Resner and Atkus Ross

what do you think of with that for me it's social network yeah like social network yeah yeah yeah John Williams fucking Spielberg for me that Star Wars yeah

Star Wars indie Jones Star Wars indie Jones yeah um Jerry Goldsmith was he done for me uh

Alien is the big standout for me whenever I think old Jerry boy Why don't I know that name? Let's see Google's name you'll definitely recognize a bunch of those are like 300 fucking movies Okay yeah I mean

The Edge and Congo both had good scores For both the Edge Yeah Alien was great But I forgot I did the Edge Yeah let's do the Edge in Congo Jerry Johnny Greenwood Oh hell yeah

I guess like You know there will be blood And Yeah I think of there will be blood And there's scary strings Fucking Phantom thread Phantom thread

Yeah yeah How about Ennio Morricone Fucking Fucking Good bad and the ugly I guess Yeah, that's the obvious one. Yeah.

Similar for Howard Shore as well for, that's the next one, Lord of the Rings. I don't know. Yeah. What else? Has he done some M. Knight stuff? Howard Shore. Howard Shore. Are my confusing it with somebody else?

Let's see. You might be right, actually. You sound a few, like, random things. He did like Spotlight, I think, and like some random stuff like that. um did he do no i was confusing that it was somebody else well i guess lord of the rings then and finally john carpenter

the thing he composed that right um no that's a good question that might actually be one that he didn't do weirdly let's see composer oh weird as good as that score is yeah right i guess fucking they live. That is weird, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, Halloween for me. Yeah, that was fun. There was, this was a good one I feel like we needed to at least throw out there and see your thoughts on this. Vince is depressed, says this. Have you guys noticed the slowdown

delay or cancellation of Hollywood slash streaming projects recently? Ever since the The writers slash actors strike of 23 has been resolved. There have been no real work or return to pre-strike levels of work in the film slash television slash streaming industry. I think this is because the IASTE and an animation union.

Ayatzi. Ayatzi. Yeah. An animation union. A negotiating right now with the studios. Hollywood slash streaming doesn't want to green light stuff or have projects. element in case and another and other strike is called thoughts about this also

this has affected me personally my father is a set painter and has not been working since November of last year I had to step up to help my family by taking up another shift at my job while balancing college I hope they can avoid a strike but to be honest I doubt it I honestly had no idea so it's yeah it's it's how to assess like a good Because it feels like there's more stuff than ever, but is that actually true and what's like the staggering process? Yeah, maybe cast cutting.

When was Fallout and stuff like that actually made? But then I am thinking about like, I don't know, there's like, this is the first year in years where there's one Marvel movie, for example, where there's, uh, yeah, like all this, all these delays, all this shifting around or this, I've been saying it for ages, like these numbers and the money, Like it's it was unsustainable. Yeah. Like it stopped making it hasn't made sense for quite a few years. And I feel like the the COVID stuff into into lining with the the launch of all these subscription services and stuff like Disney Plus.

Now they're like panicking where they realize. Oh shit. Like every Disney Plus show is like two, three hundred million dollars. But then we've also got to release movies that cost the same amount to make. But we've trained our audiences to not go out and see them and to wait for us to put. them on Disney Plus so now we feel like we're missing out on that like income stream on the same level the like speaking of Rogue One that was I feel like they got cocky during that era that they could like Disney could fart and they'd make a billion dollars

during that evil like the dumbest shit was making billions of dollars they got in like the 2010s from Disney yeah so then they yeah they they dilute all these brands through the streaming and now they're like all these big flops are kind of coming out one after the other after the other. The money isn't making sense, strikes are going on, AI's coming in. It's like this perfect storm of shit as far as money's concerned. It just doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't feel good for that type of movie anyway, the big Hollywood system and you know what, maybe, maybe that's good, maybe it needs to crumble,

you know, maybe something might be imploding. Can grow out of, yeah, at least that kind of scale of. just ridiculous filmmaking where you have to gross $800 to a billion to break even to break even type stuff, you know. Indiana Jones budgets and these Avengers movies and it's just so absurd. And this little anecdote about like set painters and people like this, they're the ones who suffer in the end, you know, the people that are

the hands you need on set and aren't the big names, aren't the big aren't the big credits that are getting millions of dollars. It's the thousands of beat the hands that you need to get these projects together. Um, that are suffering in the end, the, yeah, the writers, the actors, the stage hands, the whoever. I don't know, I got a bad feeling about this. You can't pay the CEOs any less. That would be communism. Yeah, that would be way too hard.

They need the bonus. They're struggling to afford the third. yacht. They need to be able to compete with the other, yeah, exactly. They need to get a bigger yacht because the other CEO that they know made more than them, so they've got to get bigger yacht. Mm-hmm. Well, shit sex.

And all of our jobs are being replaced by AI in like a month anyway. Oops. Yeah, true. Whatever. True wrap up on this one then from a shallow conspiracy. Yes. Kind of feeding it's something I brought up earlier. Um, thoughts on the new alien Romulus movie coming out.

So I kind of mentioned this earlier. This, I guess this is coming out. I guess Ridley Scott doesn't have his mitts on anymore and the, it's like the evil dead remake director, right? But not the latest evil dead remake that the one before that or something. Yeah, the evil dead 2013. That's right, 2013. Yeah.

Yes, we got that director. There's a trailer up. I've seen the trailer. Again, kind of like the Star Wars conversation, I felt this way about Alien 2 for a while. We're saying, well, can we just leave this now? It's not scary anymore. This creature is not a frightening creature.

He's in Fortnite with Predator and The Rock or whatever. This, we need to stop. Why? It'll do well. People are so fucking starved for like a good space horse. thing remember when life came out that movie that you just remembered existed because everybody thought it was like decent at the time but then nobody talked about it Ryan Reynolds with the like a little squid thing it might have been Ryan Reynolds

right or might have been Jake Jillen Hall I don't remember no it was no it was Jake Jelenhall you're right it was Jake Jelenhall maybe yeah and it was just a remember people thought it was like gonna be tied into venom it was like a Sony like space horror thing yeah people had their like theories oh what a forgettable film Exactly, right? Everybody listening, I just reminded you that it existed. That movie was successful because people are itching for a good space horror. And these things don't come out frequently.

People like that type of tone and that type of environment and setup. And so I think it'll do well no matter what it is. I'm pretty sure every alien movie, every recent one, especially, has made money, even though they're all, most of them are set. Even that last one? Because I had like a, I remember having a stupid teaser for like a sequel at the end. Like it was, it was left open end. It clearly would like, we're going to make more of these, but they obviously didn't.

I guess that's why I'm confused. So it may, it still made money. 240.9 million against a production budget of 97 million, not including marketing costs. So it made some money and maybe it didn't do as well as like they thought it would. And so maybe they decided not to do like some sort of. And it was really bad. But it was also like, yeah. critically panned and like people nobody everybody had issues with it that was kind of a weird one

it like didn't even seem like the same director as prometheus which is also not perfect movie very flawed but this this was like a new low it's a lot better there's at least something to appreciate yeah so i'm i'm glad really scott is not directing because it seems like he doesn't give a shit anymore it seems like he doesn't care what's going on and he was just kind of farting things out after a while anyway very workman like Like, yeah. Fere de Alvarez, I have mixed feelings on in the sense that, like, nothing he's made has ever, like, really connected with me to an extreme degree or, like,

stuck with me. Didn't love evil. Well, I didn't love the entirety of Evil Dead 2013. I loved the gore in it. I loved things about it. The goal was fun. And then, you know, what was it called? No.

Don't breathe? Don't breathe. Thank you. Don't breathe. Had some fun stuff in it. Like, I could watch that again, even though it wasn't. great. I enjoyed it.

I thought it was worse. Yeah. It's something I could maybe revisit. And there's some fun stuff in it. I would like to see what he does with an alien movie. I don't think it's like destined to be terrible. It's destined to be something that I'll probably have a bunch of issues with. But I don't know.

Like, I could see it in a theater sort of thing. Yeah. I'll be a part of that conversation. I don't feel tricked into doing it. I feel like I'm doing it on my own. on my own terms. Oh yeah. I feel like if you've sat through Covenant,

you might as well sit through Romulus at this point. Yeah, Romulus is a hilarious name. I don't love the name me. I was about to say there. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. Sounds like a Tim and Eric name. Yeah. And so I find it interesting this director has, you know,

from his, like, evil dead, you know, that was just, a lot of it was kind of dumb, wasn't a huge fan. don't breathe I started to notice like damn a lot of these shots are just kind of like rip off fincher shots like he was borrowing a lot from panic room I don't know if you picked up on that but it was like so clear that he was just like

trying to emulate fincher in that movie but not quite getting there and then what I found super funny this director's filmography is like immediately after that they get him to do the fucking Fincher sequel girl in the spiders web I'm like okay now you're like literally

taking after like a Fincher project now he's doing Alien which is also Fincher was associated with at one point so it's kind of funny that he's like in this weird little Fincher hole yeah you're right I didn't even know about the um the Spider's Web film

I didn't even realize that ever came out yeah I didn't even see that yeah he's not incompetent and there's been to be some enjoyable things I think in this movie and it can't possibly It can't possibly be worse than Alien Covenant, right? There's no way.

Famous last words? Yeah, we'll see. But yeah, it'll be difficult. There's like this emphasis on the practical effects and stuff like that, which I mean, I appreciate, I guess. Yeah, but I don't know how much to believe. That's a fucking, that's a, that's a marketing thing. It's a marketing thing. It did the same thing with people dead, right?

I don't know what to believe They did the same thing with fucking Jurassic World Which If anybody's seen it Yeah they did You know Didn't really ring true to the marketing That theme part bullshit

No Yeah Well we'll see We'll see I'll watch it when it's out It's just not that exciting to me I'll watch it but like I'm not like hyped or anything

It's a genre that can be fun and people are itching for a good one, and it probably won't be great, but it'll be serviceable. Yeah, space horror's cool. Probably, maybe. It might do some weird retconning that some people might be upset about,

but, you know. We'll see. We'll see. All right. Good episode. Meaty conversations. We did it. Varyed.

Yeah. You finally got me. Oh yeah. You finally hurt me. I did get you. Yeah, it got me good. I know, yeah.

I feel bad, but you know. Do you? Sometimes you gotta just... How much of your movie watching experience was just, like, imagining what I would be thinking at any moment? Um, for the first 50 minutes when I was, like, really bored by what was happening. I was just kind of like, picturing, like, what your reaction was, yeah? Which, yeah, that does hope.

Well, it's, you know, it's fine. Because Mars needs moms was not a real punishment anyway, so. That was, yeah, that was too much of a joy. It was too much of a treat. Yeah. So for people curious as to whether or not I'll continue the spite era that Alex revived, you're going to have to wait because we're doing a guest episode next. next episode. We're having Dan Christmas animator. He did two of the Sardinacast animated animations,

and he did some, he's done a bunch of, like, animations and did some stuff for my gaming channel back in the day, and he wants to talk about... He did the old jar intro. Oh, true. Nice. He wants to talk about Ed Wood. He's all over the place. Awesome. That's it fair. How big of a Burton fan I was growing up, that's one that slipped me by somehow So I'm really excited to finally check it out So he knows that neither of us have seen it

So this will be interesting Awesome Yeah, Edward directed by Tim Burton 1994 If you don't want to be spoiled for this movie Watch it before the next episode These episodes come out every two weeks

You can listen to them early By going to sardonicast.com Sign up for premium It's only $2 a month Or patreon.com slash sardonicast we have now come up with a solution for the members version so if you want to stay on YouTube for the convenience of that and sign up for a membership on YouTube instead

so YouTube has this thing where for some reason the members video uploads when it's set to members people can't download them or watch like with their screen turned off or like play in the background on their phone sort of thing so what we've done now is since the Patreon just links to an unlisted YouTube video anyway that eventually gets published into the real video, what we've done now is with the members video,

in the video description, there's a link to the same unlisted YouTube video. So if you sign up for a membership on YouTube, you will still be able to play in the background, do anything that any other video can. You just have to click on the video link in the description that links to the unlisted video. And we might, who knows, maybe we'll keep publishing the members video for a while.

Let me know in the comments, if anybody has any feedback on this, if you're a member, we'll see your badge and everything. Because we could always just do like a community post that links to the unlisted video instead of having to upload two separate videos. So if anybody feels like they're not missing anything by having that separate dedicated video for members, then we just won't do it. We'll just do a community post. only members can see.

And you would just want to make sure that you have like the bell turned on so that you get the notification and just have that set to all posts. Yeah. It would be nice if they just like fixed that as well. Surely they have to at some point. Feature. Yeah, you'd hope so. Because that seems like a crazy, like that doesn't make any sense.

Really stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Why would they do that? All right. We've got to work around for now. Ed would. Have a...

Let's go. Happy track. Thanks for listening, everybody. We got a Sardonicast Highlights Channel also. Subscribe to that. And we'll be figuring out new merch at some point. I just revamped my YMS merch, a bunch of great designs, yMSmerch.com.

Yeah, that's cool. Oh, thanks. And so we'll be doing something similar of a revamping for Sardana cast stuff. If you got any ideas for merch or any, like, quotes, I don't know, like happy Shrek shirt. I don't know. What's a good quote?

Send us your suggestions, post on the subreddit, post wherever you think we'll see them, and maybe we'll consider them, and maybe you'll see it on a shirt or a hat. A beanie. Borga shirt. A tuk. A sweater.

A hoodie. All right. Sweat band. No. I don't know. We'll see. Thanks for. listening everybody happy trick bye bye mate