Sardonicast - Sardonicast 211: Hamnet, Pillion, The Night of the Hunter (1955)

Episode Date: March 15, 2026

Listen early and ad-free at https://sardonicast.com or https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast. Merch: https://ymsmerch.com/products/normie-masterpiece-sticker-sheet Website: https://sardonicast.com Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/sardonicast Twitter: https://twitter.com/sardonicast Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/sardonicast.bsky.social Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sardonicast Sardonicast Highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8AhJ0bzQgs5fb9m_ZCRqkw/featured Adam's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@YMS Alex's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/IHEOfficial Jake's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ManCarryingThing Jake's movie channel: https://www.youtube.com/@womancarryingman Alex's Twitter: https://twitter.com/IHE_OFFICIAL Adam's Twitter: https://twitter.com/2gay2lift Adam's bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/yms.bsky.social Jake's twitter: https://x.com/ManCarrying Jake's bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/mancarryingthing.bsky.social Adam's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/YMS Jake's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mancarryingthing Intro music by: https://www.youtube.com/user/anUnkindnessvideo Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 2:36 Hamnet 34:37 Pillion 1:07:21 The Night of the Hunter 1:48:18 Questions 2:17:30 Outro + recommendation

Three, two, one, hing, hang, hung. That's a quote from Pillion. I'm Adam, this is Sardonicast. I'm Adam from YouTube channel YMS or your movie sucks or whatever. Hi, how's it going? Hi, how's it going? Hi, I'm Alex from I.G. Hi.

And I'm going to say, my whole body is just quivering with cleanness. Is that from Pillion? Yeah, I think that was in Pillion, right? What was it? I can't remember. No, in Pillion, it was quivering from dirtiness. Yes, yes. Okay. I'm Jake from Man-Caring Thing and Woman Caring Man.

L-O-V-E. This hand, dear hearts, whatever, it's the hand of goodness and all that. Bullshit. Anyways. How are we doing? I'm very sleep-deprived. I know Adam you were the same. Yeah.

I'm also sleep deprived. Alex is doing great. I'm feeling great. Yeah. Well, isn't that nice? Yeah. Yeah, sorry, guys. What are they putting in the tea over there?

Tell me. Loads and loads and loads of coffee. Okay. That's the secret. I need some of that. That is the secret. If you can handle it. What was that show where they did like a sketch at some point and they said that like...

Saturday Night Live? No, it wasn't Saturday Night Live. Okay. Why does kids you know? No, it was an... Kids in the hall. No, it was like an animated... It might have been from PFFR, but there was like some sequence where they were talking about

how anyone's happiness is like stealing from someone else's happiness on the other side of the world. It might have been wonder shows. Oh, okay. That's kind of a funny concept there. I don't know. That's how we feel right now. Yeah.

We can't all be fully charged. you know, we have to maintain the balance. Especially the people listed in the Epstein files. They cannot be fully charged. That's a great point. Then we're going straight to the files. That's a wonderful point. You know, I think it's crazy that people aren't talking about it

in their platforms that they have on every fucking episode that they do. I think it's fucking crazy that people have platforms and aren't fucking talking about it. So yeah, it is going to come up all the fucking time. Cool, go for it. Yeah. I mean, it's wild. We all watched Hamnit. Is Shakespeare on the files or what?

What's going on? Yeah, probably. That's a weird transition. That was an interesting segue, yeah. Well, I needed to do a hard cut before I went on just an unbelievable rant. Yeah, the sleepier you get, the more political activism you do. The more angry I get. Yes.

And you won't. Well, actually people do like me when I'm angry. That's kind of my whole brand. That's kind of very baby brain syndrome when you think about it. Oh, being angry? When you're tired. I mean, God, I have a... I guess everybody's got a little bit of BBS.

Yeah. Damn. Just a little bit. Yeah. This really says a lot about society. Speaking of baby brain syndrome, hamnet. I know, right? Actually.

Yeah, wow. So, like, the last time this film came out was, when Louise was a guest and she was the only one who'd seen it at the time. Yeah, yeah. Right. And she said a couple things, which I kind of disagree with. No, I've seen it. Sure.

We can get into this. What was her take again? I'm forgetting. She had two major quibbles from memory. One was Jesse Buckley's performance and the other was this idea that the idea that it was about Shakespeare in any way was kind of like obscured or hidden and framed as a reveal of some kind. I kind of disagree with both of those things in space I disagree with that I didn't see that

I didn't get that either but I have read other comments of people saying they got that and so I'm a little confused I mean isn't it like implied the second you sit down that it's about Shakespeare is anyone surprised it's like the premise I think it's implied through the title Hamnet yeah and also the opening quote is just like about Hamlet and Hamnet and I don't know yeah I'm not sure bet that one. I feel like that's not a surprise. It's just

kind of like, I don't know. But I am seeing people note that as like, oh, that was lame. There are other parts in it that I think is lame connection to Shakespeare. Yeah, agreed. What was the moment where it would have been the reveal? Because I was like checked in and out throughout the I believe it's when

the brother and Jesse Buckley's character. So Joe Alwin and Jesse Buckley arrived to London. And he's like, we're looking for a William Shakespeare. Oh, do they say it like that? No, but... Okay.

Well, you know, what could be the case is that if people saw this theatrically and maybe there were some crowd gasps at that moment, like maybe there's a chunk of people that didn't know before going into the movie. They don't know that Hamlet was written by William Schitt because earlier in it, they talked about going to watch Hamlet. Wait, that Hamlet? I mean, it's like a Kimba-Simba situation. There are two different things potentially, right? Just because it's a letter off. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, but to put it simply, this movie has a complicated relationship, or not even complicated, it's just kind of stupid relationship to Shakespeare. Toxic. I don't know. Problematic. I have a, I have feelings and thoughts about this movie. Please, I'm actually really interested in what you think. Yeah, I don't know where we will stand.

Shall I, shall I start? Yeah, you go for it. I was pretty interested in this film from like the first hour into it before the big thing happens, which I don't even think is a spoiler. Yeah, who cares? Spoiler alert everybody. It's kind of the premise. The kid fucking eats, he dies.

He just fucking dies. Yeated. Yeah, it's the plague, right? The plague is spreading. The plague. He gets the plague. He gets got by the plague. He got yeated by God.

Yeah. And not only that, he's just like, hey, I'll trade places with you, twin sister. And the plague is just like, yeah, sure, we, we do that. And then. Oh, yeah. He dies. And you know... I forgot about that part.

A very noble Will Smith-I-M-Legend sacrifice for the child. I like how it's really spelled out. Just like, listen, I'm going to trade places with you. And like, it was... Like, the thing is, I think the kid actors are actually pretty good. I don't know, Adam, you have a thing with... Shockingly, yeah. I think they're amazing.

Like, I think they're exceptionally good. They're the only reason where I'm like, okay, the casting nom kind of makes sense. They found child actors that don't suck. Like, that's pretty awesome. I thought that it was super effective. I wish that the movie were a little more restrained with some of its poetic choices there, especially like during all the grief stuff.

You know, I think it just kind of verges into schmaltz and sentimentality way too much. And then when it becomes a message about like art. and grief and like the healing power of art and how Hamlet basically is about his son. And it's like, like, yeah, I'm sure there is. The thing is, we don't know. The facts are that we know that Hamlet or Shakespeare had a son named Hamnet. And then he wrote a play called Hamlet after he died. Because he's unoriginal.

He's a hack is what we're finding out. Even Shakespeare was derivative. I think it helps to watch this movie knowing little to nothing about the actual play Hamlet. because when you actually watch the movie and then you watch Jesse Buckley in the cathartic experience of watching the play Hamlet, you're just like I wonder how she feels about him like

mad that his uncle's fucking his mom and like just wanting to kill his dad his uncle and like the whole play is just about him like going insane and just like on a murderous rage and torturing his girlfriend and all that it's like there is a bit more like sure in certain moments if you extract dialogue and scenes

it's just like yeah this is kind of of like, I could see him making this about like fatherhood and stuff like that. But it just kind of simplifies it and flattens it where, and just kind of in a very sentimental glowing way, it's just like Shakespeare's literally standing off to the side looking at his wife's reaction. Like, I made this play about our kid, you know, and I don't know. I just, it was a little too much for me. Although there were scenes that worked for sure.

It is like absolutely sappy melodrama. dramatic and manipulative. Like, it's just, it goes so fucking hard in terms of what it's doing with the soundtrack during scenes where it would honestly just be great without the soundtrack. I was thinking that. I was thinking that too.

Yeah. Yeah, where it's like, okay, what you're showing is not that bad, you know? Like, you don't need this, this cheat code,

uh, crutch bandaid. that you would use in other films that, you know, you might need that. This is instead taking away from that. A score should ideally be complementary to the film. This was a situation where it was insisting a very, not only specific, but very familiar sound and tone that are in scenes that would otherwise be a bit more kind of interpretable emotionally. Not to extremes, not being like, oh, yeah, this is a very good funny scene, but like there were elements of being a bit more disturbing than sappy sad, right? That I would have loved to feel and I feel I could have felt based on the visuals and the performances, but was unable to because of the insistence of the tone through the soundtrack.

Yeah, I'm totally with you there. The soundtrack was pretty overbearing in certain moments. And not only that, just like the dialogue, especially in the cathartic moments where it's like if it was just a bit more restrained. And I don't know. Like, of course, this is Chloe Zhao doing a movie off the heels of the Eternals. And I don't know how much was like her total control of the production here. I know Steven Spielberg was a producer on this film. I don't know.

You can kind of feel that influence a little bit. But, I mean, I love Spielberg. But it just felt like it tonally inappropriate, especially in the, final production of Hamlet and it's not like, look, this movie does not try to be faithful to the time period whatsoever and like the production of the actual play is kind of like very anachronistic to how it would have been done. Sure. But like there are moments when she walks in and she's watching the play and she's like acting

like just, I'm sorry, like an idiot. She's just like, why would you say my kid's name? Like she's screaming during the production. I don't know. I just felt it was kind of over the top. Yeah. The execution of that is strange. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm like, I'm kind of with you, Jake, where you said you liked that first half, but I kind of loved that first hour. I was really into it. I felt like a sense of dread and this like palpable foreshadowing in ways that I really like, the recurring use of like the wilderness. And she's like known as in the, as like a witch type figure and doing this kind of stuff in the woods that I thought was cool. And yeah, it is, it does feel like after that hour point,

building to this like intense emotional climax, it doesn't really know how to follow it up. And I know this is based on a book of the same name. I don't know if it's the same structure in the same way or how much of it is similar to that. But to me, that kind of intimacy of that first half and that focus on Buckley in particular is kind of what I was really into and almost like, fell apart to me the second it got to that to be or not to be seen. To be or not to be seen. Oh my God. On the pier where I was like, horrible.

Oh, no. Dude Pride rock. Yeah, it was a dude pride rock. For Shakespeare. There are so many pride rock moments. It felt like, yeah, we're doing the Shakespeare biopic now. Yes. Man, it would have been, because I just have such a pet pee with movies about figures like as,

big and important as this, and if you're going for this, I don't know, looser kind of thing of trying to capture this Eureka moment, how did he come up with the story? How do we get there? Juxtaposed against his first hour, which is about like this mother, basically. I would have much preferred if the Ball Mascar character was just more disparate throughout the movie and it just stayed more on her. Yes, absolutely. That second half, like, I totally agree. Once you get to the Globe theatre, I understand exactly what it was going for. for, but it wasn't emotionally connecting with me like that scene at the halfway point did. It just feels like it loses all of its steam after that point and just kind of goes in a

different direction that I wasn't interested in from like a character level, from a story level. Yeah, which is a shame because I thought the, yeah, the set design and the way it was framed inside these old houses and the costumes and everything I was really into. And I did actually like the ethereal music use in that first half, but it just couldn't maintain it for me. And did just become kind of corny and so broad that it just ended at a really? Like, that's just didn't hit for me. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Like at a certain point, like, I love when it is the focus on Annius and her life.

And like, there's that scene where she gives birth to the twins. and then you think the baby is dead and then, you know, is revived. And it's just, it's very moving. Like I was, you know, that's very touching to me. And then, but during the actual cathartic moment, I just kept feeling the filmmakers with the music, with the performances, with the dialogue in that final moment where it's just like, we're pulling out all the stops. Cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry. Do it. Do it.

You know? And it's just like, this is too much. And also, like you were saying, Alex, when it is focused on Anias, it's way more interesting because that. that's a new perspective. And then the second half, anytime we go to London without Anius, when we're just with Will in London, it's so incredibly cheesy.

You know, he stands on the water and it's doing to be or not to be thinking about death. And it's like, like, if we're making a movie about this other perspective, about this life, you know, in this world that was like,

like they should have just stayed with Annius's POV until she gets to London. That would have been so much more powerful. And I think it's so much more cheesy to have all those scenes of Will having his catharsis and crying and oh it's so important he's communicating and it's like this is what we know what he was trying to communicate with his play now you know and this is the key is unlocked and it's like it would have been so much better if it was just a little more stripped back and her

trying to contend with like what is he saying with this play and how do I feel about it and there is ultimately I think there should be some catharsis for her as a character but this whole weepy hamlet is you know we're preserving our son in the play and And it's like this beautiful thing about art. And it just, it feels, um, inauthentic to me. Yeah. Yeah, it's too like meta in a weird way. And it's, what especially bug me is that in that first half you have like Emily Watson is

like a pretty significant character. He's like echoing Jesse Buckley's character in a cool way that's like, oh, there's so much more to explore there between these two, but it's kind of pushed aside for this whole play element. Yes. Yeah. It just goes in a direction. It just doesn't speak to me. It's a problem that exists throughout genres, unfortunately, where there's an implied

sense of significance just from the familiarity, the recognizing of something that we see as culturally significant before the film, right? So if we're doing the fucking, oh, it's about Shakespeare, it's about Hamlet, that alone is a big reason why people are seeing the movie. But unfortunately, you know, I agree that it would be way more interesting if they didn't feel the need to leave these dumb little fucking treats and have the focus. The member parries. Yeah, exactly. It's like it feels so cynical.

It feels so stupid that it's impossible to take it seriously. Yeah, it reminds me of like the success of like Bohemian Rhapsody or like so many biopics or especially musician biopics where like most of the enjoyment of those films like the particularly bad ones that are still moderately well received are just hey they're playing the song that I recognize. Oh, we're getting to see the origin of this. song oh we're seeing the recording of this song and because we already associate like oh this is a hit or i like this song and it's a cultural institution when you see the this is how it started it's i guess in enough people it activates some part of their bbs brain where where it's they just think like oh yeah this this is an important thing that i'm witnessing and the positive emotions associated with the thing that I already love are ones that I'm now experiencing watching

this film in a way that it did not earn. Yeah, yeah, it feels like a trick. And it is. I'm glad you mentioned Bohemian Rhapsody because it's like, of course you love that live a performance. Like everyone does. It's like legendary. But it exists already.

You can already like watch that and see that. And that's what bugs me about it. It's like, yeah, I could go see Hamlet and come to this conclusion on my own. Like, of course you love Shakespeare. You know these, the osmosis kind of stories. you know so like you're going to have some attachment some familiarity so yeah that's why i just wish that focus was in a more interesting place where the original character-led stuff can have more space to do what it needs to especially with how excellent i think jesse buckley is in there i think it's

more the execution of that last hour that is like a script level or whatever this book is like to blame more so than performances or anything like this like i i personally think she probably deserves Steve. I'll go like for that performance and she's probably going to win too. Like I can't get mad about that when I jump old Liscoll actually is good as well.

You know, like I think all the performance is good. I don't know guys. I saw the bride. She's in the bride that really changed my perspective because I saw the bride before I watched Hamlet and it did change my perspective a little bit unfortunately. Well here's the thing. So I

also generally love Jesse Buckley but Louise Ward's criticisms that she mentioned, they do still resonate with me as well. It is more of like a subtlety sort of thing where you can tell that Jesse is giving it her all in the performance. Like she's doing it in a way that has no ego

or like fear, right? But you can definitely tell the difference between this performance directed by Chloe Zhao versus other performances directed by other people. And so if you're saying, which I haven't seen the bride yet, if you're saying that Maggie Jelenhall brings a little something else out of her in a worse way than that kind of fits. I think with the bride, it's just a matter of range. Like I could see Jesse Buckley doing, she was so incredible in Hamdit and, you know, definitely awards worthy for that performance. But

like the range of being able to do something like, she's basically playing like Harley Quinn as the bride, you know. And it just, yeah. And she's possessed by the ghost of Mary Shelley. I'm not even kidding. And the ghost of Mary Shelley just acts like Captain Jack Sparrow. Oh. Guys. This movie's insane.

Anyways. Sounds kind of funny. Well, yeah, on digital. We'll talk about it when it's on digital. Yeah, yeah. So it just, it changes how you see a work of art when you see another performance that that doesn't work. And it's not necessarily Jesse Buckley's fault that that performance doesn't work.

Oh, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Two registers that are completely different. And, yeah, she's incredible in this. how did you guys feel about Paul Miscount? Because I feel like people are criticizing him, but I feel like he was good. He was just was given some of the worst parts of the movie. Yeah, given how bad, like, some of his lines are,

I think he does a good job. Like, especially during, like, that first hour where you've got to buy into their relationship, like, see it blossom. See the loss there? I bought all of that. Yeah. Especially with how they handle that scene of him coming in

and the contrast of him against Jesse Buckley's character. And how kind of, like, unexpected that was. So I thought they were going to, like, ring that out and be like, yeah, it's just a cry fest. We're really going to, like, get into this. But they kind of don't go that way. And I thought that was a cool, clever subversion. As far as the Jesse Buckley overacting thing, for that first hour, I disagree with that.

Anyway, like up to that scene. I think it's more, yeah, just how that last section is written. I also found it quite strange. And, like, it needed a more dreamy or surrealist tone, I feel like to pull off something like that. Sure. of how like, you know, like, literal, it seemed like it was coming across. And it's like, why is no one like, it just didn't feel right that whole execution. Because like, I don't know, she's awesome.

And I'm thinking of ending things and men as well. She's great as well. So I don't think it's her problem. Exactly. At all. So. And it's funny that you kind of mention like the idea of making like a dreamier tone with that because the color grading would almost imply that that would be the case, right?

like there's some really kind of poppy colors like her dress just sticking out from the rest of the environment in terms of how like the saturation is handled. You'd almost think that it would be more along those lines in terms of overall presentation or editing or structure, but they didn't really go that way. So, you know, the color, the color grading is something that near the beginning of the film, I was like, oh, interesting. I kind of like, kind of like these choices. But as the film went on and the choices wound up feeling not really that meaningful, I was kind of like, yeah, I don't really like the look of this. You know, like as it goes on, it just kind of felt like wasted. That's what's kind of frustrating because all the pieces are there. Yeah.

Like with her being kind of like a witchy kind of character, like they just leaned into that in a way. Yeah. It could have been really cool and been more for me instead of the broadness. You could almost just re-edit the movie. Yeah. Take half an hour out. find a different place to end it. Because, yeah, it just really loses steam after that, that whole buildup.

Because I thought that was kind of like, and I know that this is coming at a certain point. The whole film is about like this premise of losing a child, right? Like, so yeah, like that palpable dread is like, that was just stringing it along for me. Right. And there's just nothing after that point. Like I just switch his gears in a way. Also like you're, it's set up so much with all this dread that when the kid actually dies, you honestly don't need to do that much.

Like it's such, I mean, it's a kid dying. Like, it's a heavy, heavy topic. And just watching the performances would have been enough. But then it does this kind of thing where he's wandering on stage and this, you know, it just, it felt it pulled me out of it a little bit where I'm just like, yeah, you're, you're kind of pushing me to these feelings when I want to, I don't want to be pushed. I want to be, you know, lead myself to those feelings. Yeah. It strips away the sincerity and makes it too sensationalized. it's just a weird approach

and I think we should definitely mention here I don't know if you guys how familiar you are with this or how much you picked up on it but something else that Louise mentioned that I understood after watching the film is Max Richter's score for this one of the tracks that plays at the end during like the climax and then goes into the credit

is an existing track that was created in the 2000s or something? I don't remember a while ago. It eventually became popularized and used in various films and television shows the biggest example of this being

Arrival 2016 Denny Vilnav. This score nomination is particularly infuriating because the arrival original score was disqualified. Johan Johansson's score was disqualified because of the use of this exact same song, citing that because it was previously written not for the film, and because it was used during pivotal moments at the beginning and end,

that there would be no way for audience members to distinguish between, between the existing track and the original score. Now, I want to be clear, I looked up all of the different changes to the rules for original score. There were points where they specified like a percentage of how much of the film's music had to be original material, and that changed a couple times. that doesn't apply here because 86% of Arrivals soundtrack was the original score by Johann Johansson. Not only was it 86%, but it is radically different in tone, in like sonic space, all the different sounds.

It does not seem reasonable that you would not be able to distinguish between those compositions. in this film, not only is that song used, and not only is it used at a pivotal moment, literally the entire fucking climax and end of the film, but with the same composer composing the rest of the soundtrack, not only would it be impossible not to argue that this is a much more clear example where people would not be able to properly differentiate between the two compositions, the existing and the new ones, but I don't know if you guys noticed this, but throughout the fucking film, he was essentially just doing renditions of that existing track. He was working within the exact same chord progression. He was doing it in the exact same key. He was intentionally, probably through the direction of Chloe Zhao or somebody telling him what to do, he was intentionally evoking the exact same emotional feel of that original pre-existing track throughout the fucking score. So, excuse me what the fuck academy, this should also be ineligible.

Because even if we're going to say like, oh yeah, well, you know, most of the compositions technically original, they made Hans Zimmer ineligible just recently. Was it like last year or the year before for Dune Part 2 score? Because so much of it was doing renditions of existing themes from Doom Part 1. So, excuse me what the fuck. Like, this, this is like, to me, this feels like it should be a scandal because there are clear rules and precedents that you've set that you are ignoring either because of favoritism or because the Academy is so fucking incompetent that they don't recognize when an existing

track is being manipulated and repurposed and essentially just remixed throughout the fucking score pretending to be the original parts. I'm sorry, this is fucking bullshit. This is bullshit. And if this wins score, I can guarantee you that the people that voted for it were thinking of the existing track at the end when they submitted their rating. Fuck you, Academy. Go eat a bag of dicks. Hi, I'm tired.

Yeah, that's bullshit. No, I think that's fair. Because I agree, I was kind of checked out from the story on an emotional level by that point where I did recognize that piece of music and it didn't really bring out the emotions it was going for. But I enjoyed the score in the build-up section of the movie, the first hour. It was kind of subtle enough. It was atmospheric enough. But I completely agree with everything you're saying about that final piece. But funnily enough, like the people I've spoken to outside of like online circles about this movie, like that's what comes up.

like oh my god that song at the end yeah i was just reading a reddit thread every fucking comment yeah yeah yeah so i think yeah it's just how much of that is like a calculated we want this to be abroad like success because it's man it's it's doing extremely well um been in cinemas for like nine weeks or something like people are going to see it non-stop so oh wow wow really really still like right now yep what the fuck yeah it's nearly it's nearly gross to 100 million Dollars. What? Yeah, that's pretty wild.

Huh. I don't understand what is wrong with the Academy in terms of their nomination process for best score. It does seem like they just hate like electronic sounding music. Yeah. Like they just like traditional. I mean, you have Johnny Greenwood nominated for one battle after another, and that's like, to me, and Ludwig Garanza for sinners. But those are the most interesting ones, at least to me personally this year. But it's like to exclude Marty Supremes.

score and even worse than that. Last year, excluding Trent Reznor, Atticus Ross, was for challengers. Just totally insane. So, like, they might, it might be one of the worst bodies of the Academy Awards for nominations. There's, there's quite a few categories where it's clear they do not have the right people, like, responsible for nominations, right? Feels very old school. Like, international feature, documentary.

Oh, yeah. sound that's a huge one score that's a huge one animation that's a huge one like those are all categories that are like consistently ignoring the best of each year right like to the point where it's just it's you expect it and it's frustrating somehow like genuinely like insane it's i mean obviously we'll talk about this more at the oscars there's there's no universe where like the best and most talented people that you could have nominating for the sound category wouldn't include Alex Garland's warfare, right?

Yeah. The score for Surratt is not nominated. It's nominated for sound, which is weird. Jake, have you seen Sarat yet? The young father's school. I haven't, I haven't watched it yet. You should, well, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say. No, I want to see it.

It sounds interesting, yeah. Good. there are quite a few I still want to see. I'm trying to catch up on just the best picture nominees. I still need to see the secret agent, but... Yeah, I haven't seen that one yet. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I don't know.

Any other thoughts about Hamlet, guys? It's pretty in-depth. It's fine. That's my opinion. It is fine. Yeah, it's a bummer when it's like weighted this way around. I feel like it hits harder in the wrong way when the second half is so much weaker. than the first half, because you just left like kind of unsatisfied in a way,

but I just feel like if I could watch that first hour and it just kind of ends after that emotional climax, then this would be like a pretty high rating for me, but it just kind of levels out as like a middling three star, one letterbox, like a six out of ten. I just wish it could have gone some different directions for what I'm looking for from these kind of movies, but I guess general audiences don't agree. Yeah, well. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I, what you're describing is basically how I expected to feel like from the first, like, half or whatever. But then I just wound up getting so, like, annoyed and frustrated that it just, I, I don't like that it became like a frustrating experience, you know, I'm kind of mad about that. Yeah, for. Four out of ten. All right. I'm a little kinder. I'll give it a six, six out of ten.

Yeah, but yeah, very flawed. Eight Oscar nominations. As a long as probably going to win. You know they gave it adapted screenplay because it's about Shakespeare and that's writing. Well, it's based on a bestseller. Have you heard about the book? Have you read the book or heard of the book, check? I need to tell you.

I've heard about it. I just, yeah, I never read it because it's just the subject. I'm like, I can't. Yeah, entirely get it. I can't read a book about the dead kid. Like, and that was my whole thing about watching the movie itself was it was just like, I really don't want to have to watch this. And yet you did.

Well, I was forced by this podcast. No. You guys forced me. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have made you watch Hamnet. I have no free will here. I am forced to do everything. This is a cry for help. Speaking of which, Pillion.

Yeah, actually, kind of... That's a segue. Yeah. Well, you didn't even watch it, Jake, did you? I did. Oh, you did? Wait, Alex, did you watch it? Oh, yeah.

Oh, I watched it. I thought you said you couldn't see it. Oh, yeah, never mind. Alex, Alex sent me, uh, he helped me out. He helped me out to... He sent you the map to find a theater. The map to the theater, so I could watch it. Yeah, because you don't like using digital maps.

I watched it at midnight last night after finishing the Night of the Hunter. Yeah. Can I just say? I'm so happy that I watched it. It was fantastic. Oh, I'm so glad you enjoyed it. It's incredible.

No, I'm really glad. I didn't skip to it. Oh, you both liked it. Yeah, it was so great. Yeah. A queer-ass kink movie for the Sards. It was so funny. And it had a closeness to me too, because it was funny.

It was extremely British, obviously. Yeah. I was, not to spoil anything, but where one of the more intimate scenes takes place in the first act of the movie. It's Bromley Market Square where I was on that street, like in December, like a few months ago. So that was cool to see those locations that I'm familiar with. And even when they go off into the fields and stuff, like I've been in these areas. So it was really cool to see that. Yeah.

So you can like take a photo of your, you can take a selfie like in the dick suck and. Yeah. The famous pillion locations. Yeah. Yeah. Where were you going to say, Alex? Sorry, I didn't mean to the drug. Oh, no, I just, I don't know, a nice British movie. I liked, really thought Harry Melling carried this on his back and did an excellent performance. It's great. Kind of like a sidebar thing that was really in my head while watching him was like, this is just what I want my actors in film and television to be, where they kind of look like real people.

They have, like, interesting faces that, like, a note. You know, as like a contrast to, you know, like Brad Pitt and F1 or whatever in this. So like, Ozympic slash have no buckled fat. And it's like, oh my God. Like, that's just like not what I'm here for. But this just felt kind of real and sincere and challenging, like the stuff they're doing in the film. And exploring these relationship dynamics and reaching a conclusion that just felt very unique. And something like I haven't seen in a film like this and just beautifully put together,

especially for a first feature from Harry Leighton, which I thought was very clever, especially a lot of these visual metaphors and the whole idea of what a Pillion is and how it represents the relationship, and yeah, down to their pets and everything, just enforcing this idea and exploring it and these characters, well, he's the main character having this huge change to him. He changes so much as a character and goes through so much, and it just avoids being like a parody of itself or silly in a way that's unintentional. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was very, very good.

Yeah, I love seeing a film tackle a type of character and relationship dynamic that is so niche but obviously still real and like obviously still something that a lot of people do, but just isn't really showcased in society. and for a film to be able to tackle that in a way that that doesn't feel like it's just taking the easy route and just making like a parody or just, you know, not doing it in any kind of authentic way. No, it has a very real sense of sincerity while still maintaining the self-awareness and understanding that, yeah, there's an inherent silliness to this. this can be funny. You can acknowledge the humor while still not dehumanizing the characters and dehumanizing their relationship. You can still explore that in an emotional way without hiding the fact that, you know, there's humor.

There's humor. It's a funny movie. It knows what it is. And it's very, very intelligent in how it's presented. Yeah. And also, like, it has a lot of sex. And it's not like cringy or awkward. Like it, well, it is awkward in some instances, but it's like, that's the point.

You know, it's, it's, um, the definition of necessary sex scenes. Like, they communicate so much about the power dynamics and what's happening, you know, um, to the relationship in it. I don't know why I got this feeling watching it, but it felt like, well, because it's like, this is an extreme version of like many relationships, you know, where there's like, I've ever been in. It's an exaggerated version of that.

Guess which one I am. Well, there you go. You know, it's like there's a lot to be, to be seen and explored just in like, in this kind of extreme version. It almost reminded me weirdly of like a Jane Austen novel or adaptation in that, like, there's these formal rules and like,

just like because it's put in this like, you know, BDSM world, all these rules that I'm learning about as I'm watching and going like, that's interesting. They can't, you know, of how they're like exploring the world and all the friends and all these things. And it felt like this highly rule based structured society, you know, and seeing that clash with like his parents, you know, and how they are like seeing his son. It's so unique.

And I just, I just, what I love especially is that it's not just like, of this mopey story, you know, like it's very sincere with its feelings, but it is not afraid, again, to just be really goofy and funny. And that's what makes it even more like heartbreaking. Yeah. It was so, like, complex, too. Because like for the first half of the movie, I was like, oh, I felt kind of like a tension or a sense of dread. I was like, where's, where's this going to go with this Scarsgaard character? Because he's so mysterious and they've, They never actually indulged into his backstory at all or anything like that. It's kind of the point of that character. But the ways it will go, like how dynamic it is, what will reveal sides of a character or like a tenderness and just delve into that complexity that does make it really satisfying, and unpredictable and kind of tragic too,

towards the end, especially with like the point it kind of wraps up on. I thought it was like beautifully executed. Yeah, I mean, Scarsguard is like this black hole. He's so charismatic and interesting and fascinating to watch on screen. The fact that you don't know about him is tell so much more, you know, about him. And especially in the end, you're just like, wow, there's so much like complexity here under the surface that I feel like it rewards some rewatching. Yeah. No, that's and I love how it's something that can be easily interpreted and inferred with people kind of familiar with.

that type of character or less exaggerated versions of that character without over-explaining it but still presenting things in a very genuine and authentic way. I, in order to kind of talk about that, I kind of need to go to spoiler territory. So why don't we just say, hey, we all love this movie.

Check it out. It's in theaters right now. Spoiler time for Pillion. Yeah. So his Alexander Scarsgaard's character, it's Alexander, right? Is that the Scarsguard? Yeah. Yeah, okay, good.

There's so many of them. There's 50 of them. Yeah, I think his performance was particularly fantastic because even though it's like a very reserved and held back performance, there is not only like a very consistent way that it's presented throughout and a very commanding. screen presence at the same time without saying much. He offers a nice level of detail and subtlety that adds to the complexity of his character. Because at that moment at the end where the two are having their day off and things seem to be going fine and then it ends in a kiss and not only did the kiss happen, but he was also, you know, like laying on his

back with with the main character on top. He was put in a situation and you can just you can read so much into this just through his look in his eyes. The face acting. Yeah. And you can you can tell that like his entire identity and all of these structures and rules that he set up for his own life have all just been like a gigantic instinctual self-distance. defense mechanism to avoid the weakness of vulnerability and exposing yourself and

intimacy. To let someone into your life and be intimate causes like a gigantic fight or flight response in this character revealing, you know, very likely a history of trauma associated with that. I've had many conversations with, you know, queer people in my own circles about relationship dynamics and kink dynamics and, you know, sexual roles and how they relate to your own upbringing or your own fears and insecurities and stresses. And this isn't true across the board, but to many people, the idea of like being a dom, is often brought out by, you know, like having, having an insecurity about control and wanting to bring that back in this other way, in this way that in a sexual context, you're free to because in many points in your life, you feel as though your agency has been stripped away from you. And again, this doesn't apply to everybody, but, you know, people that I've talked to have made this comparison. Like in my own life, like I, I feel oftentimes that I have to be the one to take charge and take initiative and, you know, lead and be responsible and get things done.

And, you know, that's brought out of, you know, a history of different traumas in my upbringing, et cetera, and needing to be independent. And so that, you know, in my, I don't know if there's a TMA, I'm an open book, obviously. But like in my own experiences, like me being able to be a sub and kind of just like let go of control and have trust

in another person and feel like comfort and safety while not needing to be in control. Like that's a very important thing. And suddenly in a sexual context, you're kind of given this permission that you wouldn't normally have

outside of a sexual context. Kind of like, you know, in the rehearsal season two where he's talking about the concept of role play and how every person is just waiting for permission to do the things that they would want to, but aren't able to because of societal expectations or structures or patterns of your own behavior. It's really interesting psychologically. And his performance captures that essence to a T and is really well done. Yeah, I really like Alexander Scarsgood. I think he picks weird movies and weird roles.

Like there's this movie. He was in succession somewhere recently or like Infinity Pool. And he'll be in something like the Northman. More like Infinity Pooh. He didn't like it. He didn't like it. No. Sorry.

But I guess more the fact that he'll do these weird challenging roles and play a range of different characters. And this, they'll lead two roles here. It's like a challenging thing to pull off. as we've been saying. But as a way, he stands out in the cast. Everyone else kind of feels like quite naturalistic. And like they fit in the environment. And he's like so tall and like he doesn't have the British accent.

There's a funny joke with him saying he's from Chislehurst when they ask. And Colin's parents ask where he's from. He just kind of dodges it and is elusive. There's a lot of good scenes that like come from there and exploring. Especially how like outside sources interpret it. like the Collins parents have a great dinner scene where the his mom who was ill at the time is trying to I guess she has nothing to lose and it's like kind of concerned for her son's well-being yeah he has this like padlock on his neck and it's like shave you can really kind of see everybody's perspective and

it just makes a great character drama oh yeah honestly exploring something complicated and they didn't even need to like ever literally flat out say that she's sick like I love that the way it's introduced. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They didn't, they didn't start with the exposition,

but you could tell just, you know, through the communication of, uh, like her makeup and costume and performance disposition and the implied passage of time and the questions she's asking. And like it's, it's all really,

really well done in terms of how that information is communicated. Like I, I love that it's just so easy to interpret and infer without ever, feeling like it's dumb or explained for the lowest common denominator and yeah not like played for melodrama like the whole exactly reason that happens on a story level is like what it does to the calling character and how that you know tweaks their relationship in that moment because he's so vulnerable and he's so like devastated by the loss of his mom yeah yeah what that brings out of the scar's car character it's so interesting as I say peels back a layer of him to see like oh he like

can be something else and what that does to the calling character because he kind of opens up in a way where he's like, maybe this isn't what I want. Maybe I want like a slightly different dynamic here. I want a little bit of love. Yeah. And in the same way that like an absurdist satire film that has no basis in reality can present ideas and stories and characters that give us windows into our own lives and the ability to refer. on, you know, not just ourselves on a personal level, but societally. In that exact same way, this film is able to present an exaggerated relationship dynamic, but still be in reality, right?

So doing the same sort of things that an absurdist satire would do in terms of relatability, showing you something that's not you, but you if it went in the most extreme direction, right? I love that. And that's why that's why that relationship with his mother in that situation that it presents is so devastating to me because, you know, like there is a very intense relatability to just wanting to be loved and wanting to be useful and like please a partner and like that sense of romantic attachment, but, you know, fulfilling it in ways that aren't. even necessarily inherently romantic. And when that comes at odds with your family or, like, other parts of your life that you care about that aren't a part of this universe where it's essentially just role play, like, it's kind of, you know, it's sad for there to even be a conflict to begin with that there should

have to be a conflict. Because, you know, his mom's not going to understand. no matter how you explain it, she's not going to understand. She doesn't know that he actually gets like a legitimate joy out of this. That's something that I'm glad that they communicated as well. Because as much as me being like a depressing movie lover, as much as I would have loved for them to just start the credits

as soon as it cut to black after he'd, you know, unsuccessfully searched for his partner that disappeared off the face of the planet without saying goodbye. As much as I would have loved that, I do see the purpose and do kind of enjoy that they continued after that to show that, A, he was still pursuing the same relationship dynamic, but, more importantly, B, that he's now setting rules and restrictions for himself. He's learned how to set boundaries. That's the right word.

Thank you. And that's a necessary showcase of his character's development for the story. Like, that's his arc, is recognizing, yes, I love this thing. I'm into this kink. I want to be this for someone, but I have my limits and I do. need some things. Otherwise, I'm going to fucking go insane and steal a motorcycle. Well, that's what's so compelling I think about like the story and the tension and the kind of like suspense is like, we don't know much about this guy. And there's part of us that is sympathizing with the parents

and being like, hey, are you safe? Like, are you happy? Like, is this going too far? And at certain points it is. And we never see like a conversation between the two of them being like, hey, these are the rules. These are the boundaries. This is what we do or don't do, which my understanding, that's normal, right? And so you're kind of like a little worried about him. Like, what is this guy going to do to him? How far is he going to be pushed? And that's why it's so exciting and funny and weird when he does break and snap. And he's like putting on the guy's shirt and he's, you know, stealing the motorcycle. And you're like, what is he, how is Scars Guard going to react to this? What's going to happen? And the fact that he gives him a day off. And he's, you know,

off, you do feel like, and this is why I'd be interested to watch it again, because while I was watching those scenes, it's so sweet, you know, the way, like just these tiny little moments of intimacy when Scarsgaard is like, go sing, you know, sing for me, teach me how to sing, you know. Great scene. And these moments, you know, when they finally kiss, it's so romantic and sweet. And then he vanishes. And then in that context, I'm thinking, I do think he felt something real, you know, for that relationship and he he was scared by that vulnerability like you were saying at him but also

part of me is like was he just like giving his dog a great day before putting him down you know like that's another side of it maybe it had already ended when he asked you know when he was insistent about what he needed and you know if that's in conflict with the type of life that he needs to live for his own insecurities and maybe lack of therapy or something. Yeah, if that's in conflict, maybe that's maybe that is where it ended for him. You never know. Yeah, it's brilliant. I wonder, I wonder if it could have worked without the kiss if that was the moment.

Also, how many movies are there out there where like the kiss is satisfying? Where it's where when it happens, you're like, ah, and there's like a catharsis for it. Because I've seen about a billion movies where that's clearly implied and that's the intent. Whereas like, oh, finally, they kiss each other. But it's never fucking earned. Like, this is, I don't know if I can think of another movie where like it's successful in that sense. I mean, yeah. As well as being an awesome kind of twist on that romantic trope as well, you know.

Well, in a movie with tons of graphic sex. It's like the kiss. That's the real moment. But that's what it's communicating. Yeah. But that, yeah, but the true kiss being the, the undoing. It's like such a beautiful tragedy to that as well.

True. Yeah. Because a lot of romance movies would be, that would be like the, oh, they're together now at like moment, but it's the complete inverse here. Yeah.

And you get turned into Shrek. But yeah, I mean, that's what it's exploring is like the complexities and differences in a relationship between sex and kink and intimacy

and how they're, you know, they're not, unrelated but they're also separate things and to many people they are intertwined in ways that can't be separated and to many people they are

completely separate things that have like nothing to do with each other even and it's yeah it's really interesting incredible for a film to explore that and you know as a person that likes thinking about people and the human brain often you know the types of characters that I've met and talked with in queer and kink circles is always fascinating to me.

Like there's a huge, huge spectrum of different things that people want in their lives. And I feel as though a society that doesn't discourage people from seeking those things out is a society that is healthier for people getting what they want. Otherwise, you have the not uncommon situation where 20 years into a marriage someone is like, actually, I'm gay if I just admitted this to myself now, because I couldn't admit this to myself earlier. Or actually, you know, I'm going to cheat on you because maybe I'm actually Polly and I just didn't think that I had permission to explore this in a real way or I wanted an open relationship and I had to do it in secret. Like so much of what human beings do to cause harm to each other in ways that are not even

explicitly intentional are just the byproduct of an existing structure in society that causes people to lie to themselves every day, right? It's being dishonest with yourself that causes harm to yourself and other people in my Everyone builds up walls around themselves and it's just like what the bricks like made of. Yeah. I just, I want to comment briefly about how like the visual style, other parts of this movie that I really liked. Like it is a pretty restrained style, but it like, you know, it gets the job done. It's effective.

Yeah. The music used was really good. And so I don't like the piano and then the brief like pop, you know, music stuff. It was, it worked very well. You know, it wasn't like Austin. Or anything it was just Quietly effective and got you immersed in the story Yeah

I I I was very very pleasantly surprised with this one I missed it at VIF Could have saw it at VIF but But I missed it I was so busy around that time Yeah busy period glad I got to see it and Hope that it does well and this is What like the directorial debut for like a feature length film for this guy?

which seems fucking insane, right? Not only in terms of how great it is, but in terms of like how such an ambitious project gets greenlit for like the type of story it wants to tell and the type of things that it wants to show. You know, it's a pretty explicit, unique and bold film. That's very, very impressive. Thank you for getting us to watch it.

Yeah. You know, I didn't even know it was about kink before going into it. I was like, oh, this has good ratings. I knew it would be like gay or something. For some reason, I thought it would be about like soccer, like football. I knew it was about kink because there was, I think Bill or the Scarscard father and son, Stellen and the guy in this movie, they were talking about it. And an interview asked Stellan Scarsgaard, like, hey, do you feel weird watching your son, like, in a movie like this, like doing sexual things?

And he's like, no, I'd feel bad if he wasn't, you know, acting well, you know, but, uh. Yeah. No, I have no problem if he's doing a good job. He should have said, you're trying to call me gay? Yeah. Yeah, Adam, this movie's kind of gay. Just saying. Oops.

Sorry. Just noticed. Just a little bit. Yeah. It's based on a book too. And I think in the book it's set in the 70s or something like this. Interesting. You can check me on that.

But I kind of like the idea of modernizing it. Because I thought the whole family dynamic angle of the parents don't really have any tension over the fact that he's gay. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's not something I've seen that many times represented. Not that like we don't need stories about like the other side of that. Exactly. But it's nice to see that range from it.

Well, because unfortunately, when you have, uh, like gay romance movies, right? It, it often falls into just very familiar tropes of like,

okay, how are we going to make this about how they have to hide it from the rest of society? And like, they might get beaten up or go to jail or disown from their family. And like all, like, and sure, you know,

those are valid things to explore, but like we've seen so much of it. And they have to be boring characters, you know, they can't ever do anything bad. Yeah, and so I do love that like this, this is able to capture something that is similar. It's kind of in the same vein. It still, it still evokes that same concept of not fitting in with society and having to hide things about yourself sort of thing. but in a situation where like his parents are in all aspects just supportive people that are trying to be supportive and love their son and trying to understand but there's still so much that is that is just inherently at odds between the life that he's living and the life that he wants versus you know the life that they want for their son the life that they would understand and be familiar with right they don't know how one could be happy doing that. But yeah,

great. It just creates such a like relatable, understandable, like character drama to it. Yeah. So, like honest and interesting. There's just so much to pick out

with that as like a framing. Yeah. No, this, this movie was fantastic. I was debating between an eight and a nine. And I think this conversation

has bumped it up to a nine. Yeah, I was in the exact same place. I think it would be like a four star for me with the possibility of it going up on a, on a rewatch. Yeah. I'd say nine.

Nine out of ten. Nice. Great film. Yeah, this was a real treat, one of the better 2025 films I've seen. Awesome, yeah. Side note, the pup was a real pup. Not to be confused with furries because they're different things, even though there's some overlap, some furries are pups.

But the pup community is a different kind of BDSM kink thing. Is it? Is it classified as BDSM? It's a different kink thing. Pup play is not the same as furry. That's what I was wondering. But yeah, there's an interview. There's an interview from the real pup that was in the film.

That's all. On i-d.c.c.o. If anybody wants to read that later, it was kind of interesting. He talks about his interactions with Scarsguard and stuff. Yeah, I'd love to watch interviews of the director talking about how he did manage to capture that sincerity, like, of this community. And I know, like, some of the cast members, as you say, from the community unit. Yeah, it just makes it feel kind of real. Yeah, yeah, where's the fucking best casting nom for this?

No other movies at the Oscars have a pup. Yeah, level up, Hamlet. Well, like, yeah, just going back to Harry Melling. I feel more passionate about Harry Mellings' performance in this than a bunch of the, like best Oscar best performance norms you know like I thought it was incredible yeah no both of these could have easily gotten none yeah but the fucking you know like the academy they ignore like really good heartfelt British movies because they did this they did they fucking snubbed all of us strangers also a queer British movie right oh yeah that was great too yeah like what the

fuck. Like zero noms? Like easily one of the best films of the year easily could have fit into any you know many of the categories. Excuse me. Yeah. I guess Brits aren't real. Gay Brits. We don't count. Well, it just confuses people. They're like, why are all the these cigarettes on my screen? True. I'm glad we had that conversation because I feel like I was able to provide some substantive and intelligent commentary to it to make up for the next film where I will not speaking of pop play though I was in Berlin the last week it's a pretty open place I think you'd like it though oh I'm sure yeah no dude like it's really fucking cool I really like it I've looked up like even though it's not like really my like it's something I have like kind of

bit of interest in but not like a lot but I so I looked up just out of curiosity like pony play gear like you know there's leather stuff like that seems like all of it's made in Germany yeah I just like they have signs for sex shops everywhere like I went into a couple of them it's like super interesting yeah I got like food poisoning there I was planning to go to like one of these clubs but I got yeah it's really lame I was like in bed for a couple days um so I didn't get to properly experienced it but for me it's only like an hour and a half to fly there so I'll be back to Berlin for sure. Really cool plays.

Berlin's a very largely attended film festival too. Yeah, she went my way over for that. We could plan to do Berlin one year. That would be sick, yeah. Jake, you got a baby though, so. I do have a baby. Yeah. He literally, Nadia's trying to put him down to sleep and I spot him.

Put him down. I got to put him down. Sorry. Seriously. And he spotted me. and what he does now, or he'll climb off the bed and he'll just go lay in the middle of the room

flat on his belly. And he's waiting for me to grab him by his ankles and swing him around. He'll do that. Like, he'll just go do it like constantly. I'm like, River, I'm tired. He's like, ah, and he goes, lays down flat until I swing him around like a rag doll

and slam him against the bed. You're the one reinforcing that expectation. Yeah, thank you, Adam. That's so true. I'll tell him that. Yeah, reasonably. Anyways, what are we talking about? Night of the Hunter.

Yeah. So let's do my recommendation then for this up, which I picked the 195 film, directed by Charles Lawton, The Knight of the Hunter. His only film. This is one of those, it's just been in my watch list forever films. I've seen like, I'd seen screenshots of it and thought, wow, that looks quite striking.

And I love the setting of like the bayou and the deep south and everything. So I thought it was about time to catch up on it. People didn't like this film when it came out. It's kind of gotten love over time and the appreciation I think it deserves anyway. Kind of brief little 90 minute exploration of a self-proclaimed preacher who's trying to find $10,000 hidden somewhere in this small little town, which he finds out because he's arrested for stealing a car and put in the same cell as a father who had robbed a bank. And that's where the $10,000 comes from. This is set right after, during the Great Depression. So there are a lot of aimless kids about and a lot of

poverty, obviously. So this money has accentuated its value and its need and this southern gothic crime thriller that comes from it is pretty spectacular. I kind of adored this. I thought this was amazing stuff. It took a few minutes for me once you get past the little floating kid heads and you know. But is that not so lynchian? Like it starts. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I thought this was, yeah, spectacular. I'm so happy you like it. And I guess I'm a new. I'm a new fan that was kind of like lynch's dune yeah no the opening no she was talking in front of the stars in the opening remember oh no no shit you're right yeah no yeah you're exactly right and like eraser head a little bit yeah yeah yeah so i think we're gonna have a range of opinions here

i'm a new fan jk you were familiar with this film already yeah this on your reaction to this as a wreck it's one of my favorites yeah i've i've seen this probably like seven eight times now i don't I know. Oh, hell yeah. I, you know, watched it, I think, first in high school and I've just seen it so many times since it's one of those that just has really stuck with me. Even though when I first watched it, I was kind of like, oh, interesting. Like, there were parts I liked about it, but I didn't really fully get it, you know, because there's so much like weird. It's so much more like a fable like than I expected.

I thought it was just going to be like a thriller, you know, an intense thriller. But it's very like storybook, you know, it's very much like a child's perspective. Exactly, yeah, I picked up on the same kind of thing. Yeah. Very taleish kind of, yeah. There's nothing like it. It's so weird. You can kind of understand why it was a failure, when it came out.

Yeah, but also the stuff, it's inspired, the things I love, the echoes of it that have gone through history since it came out. You know, the whole love and hate thing that you got out in the opening, the tattoos on each hand of this, the Robert Mitchum, priest character who I think is I don't know he's quickly gone up there to as like one of those great cinematic villains to me just like a what a fantastic concept for a character that exploitation using his like manipulative tactics to

worm his way into these towns using the power of like faith and like weakness of the time during the Great Depression to get his way and kind of use people and he's so cartoonishly evil in a way that like it's it's kind of like a nightmare, a childhood nightmare where it's like all the other adults, they can't see how phony he is. Yeah, he's like the devil.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. And yeah, going to the inspiration stuff, like do the right thing, obviously. There's a lot to it.

A lot of Cohen brothers, I feel like, even down to these like, well, the last line in the movie, obviously, being like a reference in the big Lubbowski, which I guess I would,

never would have known up until this. I didn't even think about that. That's true. Yeah. Uh-huh. But just the whole idea of like I always, on the podcast, we've referenced the Coen brothers and that love of having like a single scene where you have a character that is so memorable and kind of fleshed out.

And this film is similar for that where it has this whole range of characters. And they're also different and memorable and explore different kind of ideas of people at the time. And, you know, yeah, you got the priest, obviously, Uncle Birdie, the little kid. kid John Harper, the Spoon family. And yeah, just the whole idea of kind of exploring love and hate to these extremes in this brief little 90 minutes with that storybook kind of framing. I couldn't really ask for much more from a premise like this, maybe outside of a little bit of

kid acting here and there. I actually kind of like the main little boy quite a lot. I don't know how much that is of the, I do kind of like that trope of the kid that is kind of smarter than the adults and it's like you know he's a little bit ingenious he's trying to figure out his way out of the situation he's kind of quick and uh yeah quick on his feet and it just makes sympathetic as well like he's so powerless so having these kids being like trapped in the situation is genuinely scary it's almost like a slasher at a certain point like a horror movie um yeah yeah intense scenes in this movie

with like goofiness and silliness where Robert Mitchum is going, you know, and howling when he gets his fingers slammed. And it's like, it is that weird mixture of like a childhood nightmare of like this is goofy and bizarre. And I feel like this movie shares more with like silent film than with other movies that were coming out. You know, in the 50s, it's this like expressionistic lighting and these shifting tones, not to mention like Lillian Gish in this movie is.

like the icon of the silent era. So I think that was probably on their mind when they were making this movie. But gosh, I'm so happy that you like this movie. And I'm terrified of what Adam's going to say. You've been real quiet over there, man. Real quiet. So, yeah, I mean, like, I didn't hate the movie, but there's a lot of aspects that prevented me from getting what I feel would have been like a more full experience.

for me. I agree that visually, this film is like genuinely incredible. There's a lot of really, really fantastically conceptualized shots the way that they're pulled off. You know, that underwater sequence was really,

really cool. Like the silhouette of like the guy on the horse in the background and all the four specific stuff. Yeah. And like the almost like I don't know what the terminology for this is, but like there's a couple shots that almost feel like comic panels where like one of the staircase shots, most of the frame is like black. It's like a, you know, basically like zoomed out of a set, but you don't see what's on the other side of like the walls basically. Lots of incredible visuals in this film. but like the child acting was a lot.

And it's not just, I mean, that is one aspect, but it's not like, oh, you know, a couple kids at a couple moments. You know, they're the main characters, basically. And so I will say that, like, I was enjoying it comedically from that. I was laughing at them, uh, getting more laughs than most comedies. But I don't, yeah, I don't know if it's just that. There's something, there's something about like,

there's kind of a weird, uh, stilted nature to the editing in some scenes as well. And it's not every scene. It feels like kind of inconsistent. Like a lot of the dialogue scenes, the shots are like really quick. And yes, I acknowledge and understand that, you know, the editing process. was very different at this point in time. But, you know, that doesn't change the way that it made me feel from like a narrative experience.

What do you mean the editing process was very different? I don't understand. As in from like the techniques, the technology from today. The technology or like the techniques because I feel like the editing is there's nothing really that hugely different from modern editing. Well, my understanding is that it, you know, like it's a bit more difficult to, get the timing and pacing down editing wise in terms of like playback while you're editing you know like you're looking for visual references on the actual uh film frames but like in order to have like a convenient play pause sort of thing as you're doing the process like it's a lot

more tedious and time consuming uh takes more effort and money and so you might not have uh as of an opportunity to really fine tune exactly where you want the cut to be in terms of how it plays out from like a pacing standpoint. So I don't know because I wasn't alive then and maybe I should look up more about it, but that's just my understanding. Trying to give a bit of credibility there. But yeah, there's there's something about it where it's I found myself often wishing that I felt like I was watching a movie rather than feeling like I was watching.

people make a movie. Does that make sense to you? Not for me because I was I was into the narrative pretty deeply and I just wasn't thrown off by anything like the pacing or the editing. That stuff was very effective for me. It's an atypical movie even for its time period. I feel like there's not so much that the issue is like the time period. I do think like the things that you're hung up on, I totally understand, you know, being hung up on some of the choices here, but I do think they aren't like mistakes. Yeah, I do feel like there's a lot of intentional, like, especially the editing, the pace, this feeling of like comedy, drama, this mixture of tones is, that's what threw me off the

first time I watched the movie, you know, a long time ago. It's just like, like, why is there, like, so much goofiness when it's like also a thriller, you know? And it's, it's, it is tonally bizarre. Like, there's nothing else like it. So it is, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm really to where you're coming from here. That's what I'm saying. I appreciate it. I guess, yeah. I found it sort of meticulous, actually, like inversely.

With your saying, you're complimenting the kind of composition. And I agree, but it was just so sort of creative and varied and unpredictable in the way it was going. By the time you get to, are we doing spoilers? Sure. How do we want to do this? Spoilers for a 70-year-old film. Yeah. But just like all these things I traditionally love in film, the visual metaphors are using like animals to express ideas like the spider web shot over them, the birds in the cage, the bunnies in the foreground.

Sure, yeah. All this kind of stuff. I really adored all that kind of stuff. And yeah, that whole fairy taleish kind of feeling. Yeah, the owl, especially when they go on the run on the skiff. I thought was like so gorgeous to watch. It felt like, yeah, I could see echoes of this in films that I love and like a Gilma or something like that. Yeah.

Guillermo loves this movie. That was my favorite sequence. If the entire movie was like that, it would have been like a 10 honestly. Yeah. The music there was incredible. The music honestly. Yeah, the use of the singing. The choices for the soundtrack, the tones and the overall sound like felt way ahead of its time at many different points in the film.

And even though there are sequences where it's like, okay, yeah, that's kind of weird in terms of like tonal shifts. And maybe on a second watch, I would be less, you know, taken out of the experience from it. Overall, music, like, really, really well done. Love the music. Yeah, it makes me kind of sad that, like, it kind of flopped and was such a, it's kind of hated at the time because it put off the director from ever making other film. And then he had something on the books. How familiar are you guys with Charles Lawton's work as an actor? Not familiar.

Not. Okay. Yeah. I mean, he's at the time, you know, when this movie was made and also just now he's like one of the greatest actors ever, like period, in my opinion. Witness for the prosecution. The hunchback of 1939, he placed that hunchback. You know, he's mutiny on the bounty is a great film. He's incredible.

Hobson's Choice, that's a David Lean movie. That's really good. is an incredible, incredible range, incredible actor. Famously, he was a gay, gay actor, and he was, I think, pretty open, or not open, but, you know, he was as open as he could be in those days. It was known, basically, you know, in the industry. And he, I do think there's interesting, like, queer subtext in The Night of the Hunter as a result. I do think, like, that interpretation is really interesting, especially the relationship between sex and religion and the theme. on display here are so, so interesting how, you know, the preacher is this guy who is kind of like this, I don't know, he feels very modern, like this modern in-cell.

Like, I hate, you know, sex and all this stuff. And like that scene with Shelley Winters, who is just so sad and pathetic in this film, you know, when she wants to like, hey, have some sex. They just got married. And he's like, do you want to have a child? What do you expect to get out of this? You know, it's so fascinating and dark and weird. And seeing that on screen is so fascinating. And, you know, especially for this time period.

Yeah. The way at Lambass's religion, like early on with that character when he's driving his car. Oh, yeah. And he's talking to God. And he's like, not that you mind the killings, your book is full of killings. And it's like such a cool, interesting character. The hypocrisy is. is really on display.

Not only like in the first half of the movie, we're seeing this small town fall in love with this con man. And then at the end of the film, though, when the kids have been hunted and attacked and their parents are dead and all this stuff, then the town turns into a mob and they don't even care about the kids anymore. They just want to, you know, they just want vengeance.

It's just kind of like a really good dissection of the kind of mentality of, of, of, I guess, religion. And that's why I thought you'd be interested. You might find these themes interesting, Adam, you know, seeing like this movie really, on one side, it is very critical of, like, organized religion and Christianity being bent towards, you know, bad, bad ends. However, you also have this, like, Lillian Gish character representing, like, the idea of good and, like, children and it's it's it's it's again I keep thinking about David Lynch because it is so

lynch in in the way it has this dichotomy between good and evil and you have this like supreme good represented in a character which Lynch would often do I did want to ask about that because the the character the older woman at the end like her performance was great honestly but she's also kind of like reinforcing some similar ideas So I wasn't really sure exactly where the film was getting at politically. Because, you know, although, yes, it's a criticism of how some people use religion, that's for sure. I did find there still to be, like, even at the end, like, you know, who's the character? What's the character's name?

Ruby? Like, this whole, I don't know what was going on with her being criticized so heavily. for like having a sex drive at points where it was like it felt like like she was being ashamed for you know being being a human I think that was more from like a great depression kind of perspective where yeah exactly right she's she's taking in all of these kids and you get this detail that she lost a child of her own and it's like her way of kind of capturing that energy you're putting something positive out there um Yeah, I'm not sure.

Tap into that kind of thing again. But she's seen more of like a, she's like the first adult to truly listen to these kids and treat them seriously as like a contrast to the previous people. Who, you know, the uncle's like quite a kind character, but he goes down his own path of like who's boozing and can't help him when he's needed. And I thought that was like a nice contrast like narrowly once you've got there to have a character like that who's

well she actually protects them she I thought it was like a funny cool moment when she comes out with the shotgun she's a great character she's an awesome awesome character yeah and her like dialogue it's a hard world for little things children are men at the strongest they abide

all this kind of stuff out like that's what it was going for like she has an empathy and a true kind of motherly care for these these kids of which there are many of that we're because they get at the dialogue right where um yeah that that's what upset her about that was it the judy character you're saying yeah ruby no i appreciate ruby ruby sorry yeah um ruby um

just getting at the idea of like yeah getting i don't getting into kind of a frivolous romance and then the the result is there's a kid in this awful situation that's then like her problem type thing like trying to instill that in her that there's like a responsibility or consequence maybe So something like that. And obviously the attitudes at the time to some degree and just where it when it was set. I think, yeah. I really appreciate that criticism and you guys bring up Ruby as a character because I do think this movie is like quite sexist in a lot of ways. You know, because it is kind of like the mother and the horror dynamic where every female in this movie is either just like stupidly seduced by Robert Mitchum or they're like Lillian Gish, you know, and just like this wholesome mother type character.

There's really no females in this movie or women in this movie, except for the children, you know. And Ruby is, and I think what they're trying to do is show it not so much as like women are these corruptible beings, you know, but that adulthood is a corruptible force and that the attraction and the allure of adulthood compared to the relative innocence of childhood. and Lillian Gish trying to protect children, which Ruby is a child, you know, and is being preyed upon by these older men. So it's like trying to protect children in a world that does not care about children whatsoever. Maybe. I do kind of feel weird at like the trope of, you know, the mother just going crazy also. You know, I feel like I've seen I've seen that quite a few times now

And in a very inherently Older film female character context Or it's just like yeah, you know, women be Women be doing that I get what you mean But I felt like this was an interesting play on that in that It wasn't just that she went crazy It's that she went crazy because of the religion

And because she became trapped in this institution With the husband and was like You know you kind of see like she's in these like crazy religious meetings with these pit you know torches blaring and she's just like hallucinating and going crazy with this kind of like religious indoctrination so I thought that was at least an interesting take on it for me thank you for bringing that up because yeah there's I I will say that there are films this being one of them where I do find it difficult to absorb everything that's happening perhaps a combination of

ADHD and also the a lot of aspects that are commonplace to films from this time period that to me come off as like an inherent kind of phoniness that makes it difficult for me to absorb the narrative in a way where I would most other films that I could watch from different time periods and that's not to say every film from the 50s is one of those things. I love paths of glory. That's a film where that is not an issue. I'm looking forward to many other films from this time period, but there are things that are definitely more commonplace the further back in time you get in terms of what people were expecting out of performances, right? How dialogue and exposition is handled, you know, like pretty immediately like at the beginning when the father

is setting up the plot to his child and, you know, that quick conversation. You got to swear. Swear means promise. Here's all the information you need. Like sort of like, there's a lot of different expectations for what films are and how aspects of filmmaking are handled that it seems like to most people, it's just a matter of understanding what you're getting out of it and then you're able to get into it just as almost like it's a different language or a different translation. But to me, it's

difficult. And I don't know if it's ADHD autism thing, likely autistic. But I have the exact same issue with like Shakespearean dialect. Even, and again, this isn't just like an old movie type of thing, because I have that issue with Shakespearean dialect in new films, right? There are newer films that do that exact same thing. And I can't absorb the information properly. I'm like, I'm trying, but eventually it gets to the point where I'm like, I'm looking at the screen and how did my mind start wandering off to the responsibilities I have the next day? Sure. You know? Right.

And I have a couple of thoughts. I want to address. Like, obviously you are, I've ever right to have your, you know, opinion about this and what you. But I do think like when I hear people talk about this about like older films and now it's, it is just like a limit. I do think in so many ways. And I used to think about this about older films too, is that like there is a linear. progression of quality and how movies just got better. It's not later.

We learned how to make better movies over time. And I think like when you see older style of acting, it's just different. Like when I just changed my mindset, like, okay, this is just a different style. Like this is just what they, you know, like watching a foreign film of a, you know, in a different culture and it's made differently and you just kind of get into the mode. And you've seen so many, you know, great films from all over the world. And you understand like when you're watching a Korean film, when you're watching an Italian. film like there's different modes and styles and tones and I think like I feel that way of watching

you know some of these older films so yeah I mean I totally get where you're coming from and it can be like a barrier and a challenge but I do think like just like watching more of them you know it's also just like a way to immerse yourself and like oh yeah you just get used to I don't know I feel like when I watch older movies I don't really see the the creeks and things like that Yeah. I mean like things are anything that's normalized is something you're normalized to. I don't know if like what you're what you're saying is absolutely valid. But I don't think that that is the explanation for everything that I had an issue with in this film. I think the child acting is a pretty, a pretty apparent, pretty large example of something that like, you know, even even to this modern day, people have different threshold. for what they'll accept, and typically the average person is willing to accept a worse performance if the actor is a child, right? But I'm not that person. I'm consistent throughout generations of films on that subject, and I don't treat this film any differently than a film I would

see today in that sense, right? In terms of like, effects work, you know, like that's something where I completely agree with you, where I can see like, oh, a lit projection. instead of, you know, what might be like a seamless green screen effect. And that doesn't bother me at all. And it's kind of interesting to think about from like a filmmaking standpoint. So I don't know. Like as I'm articulating my reasons for not being able to be fully into this film, it's something that I'm figuring out as I'm saying it and trying to understand myself.

So I have to assume that there is some sort of, you know, some some sort of difference between things that are considered to be commonplace or standards or accepted at the time. I wouldn't say that film progression is linear and that, you know, the survivorship bias of films from any decade, any generation, we only remember the good ones and there's mostly shit every year. And you could make the argument that film

are getting better or worse and you'd be just as valid depending on which films you watch. Well, yeah, I could be guilty of the opposite. Yeah. You know, sometimes I'm guilty of just like, well, movies were better back then. You know, they knew how to make movies. It's just not true, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

It just depends which movies you watch. One thing that prevents me from really spending a significant amount more of my time watching older films is that most of the ones that, most of the ones that, you know, people consider to be the great ones that I'm supposed to see are ones that just don't connect with me. And in that sense, I'm also fucking consistent with older films and modern films, because a lot of my taste for films that people enjoy currently are not my taste, right? So it's a difficult barrier for me to get into when I have to watch a lot of things that I am relentlessly bored by. in order to find the few things that I enjoy. In a modern sense, I know very well how to watch newer films that I think I will expect

based on audience reactions, ratings, director, people involved still alive, still making movies, aspects of the marketing. Like, I've got that down, and I know how to find things that I will enjoy myself, and I'm very good at that. but there's no such, there's no such standard that exists for me right now other than some people from my audience who either think I'll enjoy or not enjoy a film. It seems like when this was posted on the subreddit, all the top comments were people saying that I'm not going to enjoy this one.

So it seems like, you know, it's figured out your taste, yeah. It seems like there's, there's something. to this other than it just being a movie from the 50s that because there's other things that people said that I would enjoy from the 50s that you know it seems it seems that there are features and factors that are unique to this that are preventing me from getting the full experience that are consistent with things I've criticized before so yeah no I mean you're you're very consistent with your your perspective on that and look there's there's kids in this movie and they're you know you watch any movie from the 50s or 60 with kids in them like they're you know that's going to be

a hang up you know that's they just didn't act they they didn't have uh they didn't direct kids in a way like that and that for me look it works because i feel like i really love pearls performance you know her the little girl i feel like she has such a yeah she has such a unique face and so like i just love all her reactions and everything how she's always like trying to hold on to Harry Pal, even though he's like, like the brother's just like, come on. She drops it immediately too. Uh-huh. Dead.

Uh-huh. But there are moments that I think are really effective. And even though there are some more hammy moments from the boy, I think that he, he feels very much part of this world, which is kind of heightened and surreal and fairy tale-like. True. You know, the movie literally ends with Lillian Gish talking to the camera, you know, with like a moral about how children are the future, you know, like. That was confusing to me.

The like Christmas. It felt kind of rushed. I don't know. That is such a, you know, I get what you mean, but to me that is such a moving, like, I don't know. It's like the kids, what they go through, like the movie is putting it into this like good and evil fairy tale, um, biblical almost story. But at the, at the end of it, it's like about these kids who are just like, they have

know where to go. And, you know, when he wraps up the apple, it just that little moment is so touching to me. It always gets me, you know, when the Christmas presents. Like, it's just such a normal thing of, like, a kid, like, I didn't get her anything. Like, I feel guilty. I need to, you know, get an apple and wrap it in this little doily and give it to her. And her reaction to it is so, like, nice and uplifting. She's wonderful. She's wonderful. Yes. Yeah. Little fucking cheapscape. No, it's super interesting, like, for this conversation, I guess. from that historical perspective, because part of it for me is that love of the history and the fact that it's like, okay, what level of this?

Am I grading on the cultural norms at the time, the technology of the time, the expectations of the time? I find a sense of wonder, I guess, just from seeing these time periods sort of immortalized and seeing like a Ford Model T like working and like underwater and all this kind of thing. That was cool. And, but there's all sorts of things going on, I guess, with that. And to me, it doesn't really matter when it comes out. I connect with stories that are thousands of years old, you know? Like, I love the Odyssey. I love it.

It's just a matter of like, what speaks to me? And in this movie, the villain speaks to me, the setting speaks to me, the plot speaks to me. You relate to the Robert Mitchell character. And not like literally like, yeah, that's me right there. Yeah, literally me. It's just a great hook and a great story, you know. know, um, it just gets me into that environment and then the presentation on top of it, so they expertly put together.

And yeah, if you give me those story and characters, I will be there. Doesn't really matter when or where it was released. Um, but you got, you got to like wade through that. No, I know exactly what you're saying. Like, people think that I have like some sort of like a limit on like the types of films I'm willing to watch when that is not the case, right? Like, again, uh, you know, there's, there's movies from. any decade that I love, there's just less of them from some decades than others and less of

me wanting to be dedicating my time in an already busy schedule where I'm putting way much more time than most YouTube film critics into pursuing contemporary foreign independent films, right? You've got to remember time exists, right? So when you spend time doing something, you're taking time. away from other things. Everything's an opportunity cost, yeah. And so when there's a, there's something that I'm clearly interested and passionate in doing, providing like what I feel is like a legitimate service and also enjoying it. And then, you know, every, every time I do check out an older film,

people just get mad at me. So like I have like a, I'm not saying you guys, not saying you guys, but like, yeah, yeah. No, but I know what you mean. You know, like it, it does, it, it is kind of, of like discouraging, right? So I think what's nice is, I mean, you're always honest about this too. And I think maybe that's the problem is that you're so upfront. Like, hey, this is what I prioritize in my film watching. This is what I like and what I gravitate towards. And that's normal.

I think that's a good thing for critics to be honest about. Like, this is what I specialize in. Yeah. And you never feign like this grand knowledge of old films from, you know, classic Hollywood, you know, or anything like that. And I think like there are people you can seek out and get their opinions about older films and do that. Respectfully, I'm not going to go to you if I want an opinion about

Metropolis. Citizen Kane or something. I don't know. But I love hearing your reaction to older movies, too. I mean, because they're, especially this movie, because it is so atypical of the time. Like, if you wanted to see like a regular type of movie from the 50s, there's like plenty of options, but this is one that even of the era, it was like, the fuck are we doing here.

Yeah. That was apparent to me. even. Yeah, yeah. Like as someone who's like, hasn't watched the full scope and scale of what the decade has to offer, like that was still apparent. And it caught me off guard. And I did, I did enjoy it for that, for sure. Mm-hmm. I love the moment when he calls Pearl, you disgusting little wretch. It is like screaming at them over the dinner table, uh, trying to get the money. Like, those are some of the most powerful sequences of the movie that are just like managing this tone of comedy and terror that is a your reaction when he when he finds out about the doll

like his oh my god it's just that whole performance every time probably Mitch him is on screen and when he um he just barely misses them right when the boat leaves and that scream that he does it's just this primal oh boy I love it yeah I loved it sorry you just reminded me about like a fucking audio issue I had to. They'd used the same scream three times in a row. Did you guys catch that? Um, when he was running away at the end?

When he was running away. Oh, you mean when he gets shot at the end of the film? Oh yeah. He goes, oh, woo. Literally copy a face it three times. It's like Looney Tunes. It's, it literally is like a Looney Tunes moment.

It's so bizarre. Yeah. I don't know. I think even before we started this conversation, I acknowledged in my own head that like I have a surprisingly positive feeling about the film like there's no sour taste left in my mouth from it

even if I don't love it uncritically and think it's the best thing ever and not have any issues with it. It is still overall something that like I was impressed by a good amount of aspects and it is unique and I wouldn't not watch it again for sure this isn't a movie that I have no interest in seeing again

but I do feel I do feel you know decently confident that it is something that especially knowing what it is which you can only do by watching the film the first time will help on my second experience for what to expect and I felt that way about a lot of movies regardless of decade where sometimes something just being like so weird or different and sometimes especially something like tonally jarring if you know what you're expecting going into it on the second watch it can it can grow on you

over time for sure oh yeah yeah I guess we can wrap this up with ratings but yeah I don't know I guess for me like this it just speaks to universal truths about humanity for me you know using institutions of like authority or power to get wealth or something kind of selfish the way it explores greed and faith. This is all the stuff I love from storytelling. Just one of the great villains, I feel. So many great moments that are now seared into my mind's eye. So many visuals and moments and yeah, the little musical stuff towards the end.

It's like so creative and cool. This would be like a high four and a half star, like a nine out of ten for me. I thought this was fantastic. Sorry 6 out of 10 For now Okay I'll likely raise it over time

If I see it again I would be so interested If you were to like see this again In a couple years You know what you think But Oh I understand

And I give it I mean it's to me This is 10 out of time It's like a miracle movie In my mind It's one of the greatest things Ever made You know like I just

I love this movie I think it's a miracle That James Agey You know He wrote the screen play, one of the greatest film critics and writers of his generation who wrote this right before he died. Charles Lawton is only, you know, one of the greatest actors of his or any generation, you know, his only directorial effort. And then Stanley Cortez, the cinematographer. I mean,

one of the greatest cinematographers ever. So like, it is kind of like this perfect thing, object of beauty that just happened to come out of a studio system that really wasn't prioritizing these types of things. So it's a miracle that it exists. I'm, I, I love this thing. Yeah. Yeah, I do have positive, fine memories of certain sequences in this film that I don't think I'll forget about. And I'll look back at positive. You know, the boat sequence, that was all shot on a soundstage.

It's all, like a huge set. Yeah, I picked up on that. And it was, it was incredible. It's a dreamlike and cool. Yeah, so awesome. Like it, not like it felt like it, but I inferred that. it must be. Yeah, with the backgrounds especially.

And that moment when they're in the barn and they see, you know, Harry Powell walking along the horizon and he's, you know, don't he never sleep? That's actually, it's like the, it's like blood meridian. It's like, it's so like ominous. But that's actually, uh, forced perspective because it's actually a little person on a little horse.

Nice. On the set. Yeah. Well, the bedroom, uh, false perspective stuff. It looks like a chapel. I know. Yeah,

that was incredible. I like that one. Like shot, yeah. And that moment, one of the most striking moments in the whole movie is seeing Shelley Winter's dead either strapped to the car

under the water. Yeah, that was great. So beautiful, but terrifying. Yeah, I, like part of me, part of me wishes, like the whole film was kind of like that, you know?

But I get that I get that it can't be. Yeah. I appreciate the balance that it strikes, you know. There's the good and the evil, you know. The love and hate. The love and hate battling it out. And hate's a goner. He's down for the count.

Thanks for the reg. Yes, thank you, Alex. Yeah, I'm glad it came together. Awesome conversation. Do you want to do some questions? Let's do it. Yeah. Let's do some questions then from the Southern Uncast community.

Head over to the suggestion thread over on the subreddit. If you want to leave questions for future, episodes just like Pelican 1-22 who says thoughts on the C-O of Pixar Pete Doctor who also directed many of their classics saying with the removal of the queer storyline from Elio we're making a movie not hundreds of millions of dollars of therapy so I was reading through the full context of this in a Guardian article earlier do you want me to read the excerpt of that yeah I would really just made a video about that oh nice Like a skid about this.

Yeah. Yeah, I talked about it before this article came out in my Oscar video that's not out yet. Yeah, because it was a discussion around OEO, obviously. This is like a direct acknowledgement from Pete Doctor about it. So, yeah, Doctor was speaking to the Wall Street Journal in the wake of the successful release of Pixar's latest film Hoppers, which opened at number one at the North American box office this weekend. Rumors of internal dissent over the LGBT-related content emerged in 20, 22, after publications of a letter signed by their LGBT employees of Pixar and their allies,

claimed their studio executives had barred moments of gay affection from films before they were released. The letter read, We at Pixar have personally witnessed beautiful stories full of diverse characters, come back from Disney, corporate reviews shaved down to crumbs of what they once were. It added nearly every moment of overtly gay affection is cut at Disney's behest, even if creating LGBT QIA plus content was the answer to fixing the discriminatory legislation in the world, we are being barred from creating it. The letter followed Pixar parent company Disney's lukewarm response to Florida's don't say gay legislation, banning teaching about sexual orientation and gender identity until fourth grade, which was passed in 2022. When asked about the issue, doctor replied, we're making a movie, not hundreds of millions of dollars of therapy. thoughts coming from the guy who directed inside out oh yeah that's that is the kicker isn't it

which yeah like how to how the fuck do you circle that square in your own head strange philosophy on filmmaking right that aren't the best films kind of like that's like what you want to happen in a way for it to feel like a true like something internal being expressed in like an honest and true yeah something real coming from someone it is kind of funny because the way he talks about it, it's almost as if he thinks that there's something cynical and inauthentic in having a story

that is personal to someone. Right? He's like, no, it has to be relatable to only one type of person. Like, you can't make something that expresses something outside the boundaries of what we've decided is the one thing that everybody should be.

We need a monoculture where everybody's the exact same, right? Yeah. It's propaganda when you show 0.1% of when 0.1% of your media is showcasing identities that are not the one identity. That's propaganda. It's not propaganda to censor anything but one identity. Okay. You're indoctrinating my children.

They're not making Pillion as a Pixar movie, right? It's like a character has a crush on a boy. If you looked at the critical drinker subreddit when Elio was flopping, you would think that they made Pillion into a Pixar movie. That's how people were talking about it, even though they didn't even watch the movie. And they were reacting to a tweet of a person saying that it was. a gay movie even though they removed all the gay shit from it and if we get if we get down into the details the gay shit was just implied in the original film anyway it was

like oh he likes fashion and there's like a photo on a wall at one point showcasing like a future version of him where it implies he's in a relationship with someone of the same gender and that's it but they got so fucking scared exactly they got so fucking scared when Lightyear was a flop because these fucking Karen's online that were going like, oh, you're kissing in your movie. And it got banned in several countries too, right? Just because of one same gender kiss. Single kiss.

That was fucking five seconds. Hidden in the background, basically. Five, like, not even, like one second in like a fucking transitionary scene. You blink and you miss it. And they just freaked out about this. And so, you know. Lightier was a flop because it was boring as shit because they're trying to do a toy story. It's because it was it was fucking generic.

Yeah, exactly. It's the opposite takeaway. Like, you want something that doesn't feel like the same movie you've already seen eight billion times if you're making a kid's property especially, right? Like kids, kids properties are like the only genre right now where like you can make an original story and it still does well. Like you have that freedom where it doesn't have to be an existing IP. existing IP is for people that want to experience nostalgia, which if you're doing that, you're probably over the age of 10, right?

Yeah. So. Yeah. You know, I don't know anything about Pete Doctor, but, you know, he's the head is Pixar now. But it's like, it's clearly this is all a posture of cowardice and being scared. And Disney is directing them to do this and water down their films. Because it's not that they, the fact that they are doing this is making their movies more generic. And that's what is making them worse, you know, because you're saying. taking the personal creativity out of it that was so special about, I mean, look at a movie like Wally. Like, that's a weird movie, you know?

It's woke. Like, it's a very woke movie, right? And if that came out today, oh, wow, they, they'd have a lot to say about it, right? But this is the issue with Disney and with any of these corporations, especially now during, let's say, Trump 2.0 era, where now everyone's like, oh, the culture's changed. We got to react to this, right? And you see a lot of cowardice from Disney, especially fucking Disney, you know, which has never been The worst.

Yeah, they're the worst. But it's like this cowardice to be like, if you budge at all, if you show any, any movement towards like giving into this, the loudest, most annoying chuds on the internet, right? You're not going to win anything from that, you know? Like, you're not gaining anything. Yeah, they were never seeing your movie anyway. They weren't seeing it anyways. You removed the woke shit and it's still flopped.

Go unwoke, go broke. They're not a real contingent of people. Exactly. Exactly. And it's the second you start, it's this thing with. like the rise of Skywalker. It's like, how did that work out for you? Walking back all the complaints that they had about the last jet.

Like, it's just, have some fucking balls. Make the movie. Let them make the movies that they, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But it's like, they're just so risk of this, right? Capitulating to people who are never watching the movie anyway. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. But, but, you know, if the people that have the power over what films get made and how they are, are not people who are directly involved in art, right? I mean, like, yeah, Pete Doctor directed inside out. But it seemed like he wasn't really very strongly a part of the production of Elio, right? Like, it seems like a lot of the response, potentially he's maybe just taking the blame for it. Because Pixar, you know, even if you're president of Pixar, you're a subsidiary of Disney at the end of the day. Yeah.

You're just you're literally just taking orders from big mouse and you got to assume that whoever whoever's calling the shots there probably is stupid enough to think that like oh wait Did Lightyear fail because it was too woke? That was the problem like that yeah, I mean That's just kind of how systems are organized You know the the downstream effect of like a the social media are algorithms and the way people talk about stuff online and how like incongruent is with

making good art really with the way this stuff bubbles to the top it's so infuriating the way yeah but all the oxygen put into like that light year thing that's just such a nothing literally nothing doing like it's like who's

actually inflaming this when you actually like go and look at these accounts and figure Epstein Jeffrey Epstein and Galane Maxwell she was fucking in charge of all these fucking subreddits too. She talked with moot to create poll They created poll

To get people all mad at each other about culture war nonsense To distract from the fact that billionaires Are creating a fucking class war And have been fucking at war with us For so fucking long Making us think that we're our own enemies Bro, there's one minority That is responsible for the

destruction of everything that you love, and that's them, the fucking pedophile billionaire elite. Wake the fuck up! Hi, I'm tired. Wow. Or did you think maybe it's just, if they took the gay kiss out of Lightyear, it would have done better. I mean, it's either one or the other. I hear brown people are bad. I'm, I hear that too, but I don't know. Now my whole worldview comes from like, Russian bolts that want to make me mad. And it's all about children. And this kind of brings back to the night of the hunter, you know, because it's like, it's all of this is some philosophy of, oh, we're protecting the children. It's the thing with the trans panic.

It's all of these things. No, it's about the children. They shouldn't be seeing this. I hear trans people are bad. They shouldn't be exposed to this. And it's like, if you cared about children, you'd want them to have free lunches, you know. Like, it's just. The Simpsons was like parodying the shit in the 90s, you know.

Why aren't white people having more children And also I don't want to support any policy That would make people comfortable having children And feel financially able to I'm glad this isn't a political podcast Yeah I'm glad politics doesn't affect anything Politics is coming for you buddy Whoever's in the comments section

Politics is coming for you whether you like it or not But you know Hoppers is doing well because it's anti-woke Yeah That's the difference I don't know Have you guys seen hoppers No I'll see it soon No I was at a furry convention

Oh look at that's kidding No I'll see it Yeah It's for a being well Sure All right Damn man how do you follow that guy up Next question

Okay let's do this one This uh Nice calming topic Goosey McGoose face Goosey Muck Goosephose 2 What are your thoughts on gambling Do you enjoy a flutter yourselves? Do you agree that there is an epidemic

Of gambling shops on our high streets And endless gambling ads all over TV And the internet It's something I find quite upsetting I'm just glad there's one more way That rich people can siphon money from poor people Yeah, that's exactly what I was about to say It's not a coincidence that a lot of like the

Just talking about the UK right now A lot of the high streets in my country That are like, they're like bare at this point, like post-COVID and everything and Amazon and Bezos, like, moving all of that money online. All high streets now are just like gambling shops and the people that go in there. And like when I worked in retail for a bit, I worked at the stand where you sold like cigarettes and lotto tickets.

And there's like, God, it was fucking depressing. Like you see these people like these mothers with their little kids coming in like every day. and dropping all this money and for this, like, if they figure out to monetize hope, it's so fucked. And now it's like in your pocket.

And you have a casino in your pocket at all times and everything. Including like adverts on TV before you go to the movies. Like everything is about that, you know? Like you can belt on the Oscars. You can,

you can belt on who's going to be president. Like, yeah, we've been joking about Polymarket in the past few episodes. But like, Yeah, that's what Adam was saying. It is just another way of funneling wealth away.

Yeah, and those types of ads where they try to get at like an emotional fantasy of like, oh, what if you had enough money? Like those are directly targeted at people that are struggling, trying to get them to literally just gamble their money away. Like, it's fucking evil. Yeah, so either that or are like, are you against fun? What? You think we're just having fun, guys. It's just fun.

What's wrong with having a little fun? I feel like that's what I see all the time in the gambling ads too. I know, it's disgusting. I mean, what else is there to say? It's just like, I'm gambling. Oh, are you? Yeah, on the Oscars. Okay.

But I'm not going to say like which platform and like, it's not an ad, right? Like, I do these things, but you got to have, you got to make sure to like not, A, not do it all the fucking time, right? I'm not going to go to a casino outside of like being in Vegas or Reno or whatever or like a friend's birthday if they decide to have it a casino or something. My advice for people, don't gamble any money that you're not completely comfortable losing. Yeah. You consider it gone the moment you take the bet.

Otherwise, you shouldn't be gambling. Like it has to be money that you're comfortable just throwing away. Yeah, I agreed. I just, I'm just so glad. Out of all the things I enjoy, like, dopamine farming. Like, gambling just doesn't really do it for me. I thank God for that every day. Oh, you should try slots.

Holy shit, dude. Like, it's like a fast track way to, like, ruin your life if you're truly addicted to it. Like, I can't remember what the stat is, but it's, like, 80% of, like, gambling wealth is earned by, like, 5% of people or something like this. if I said that right Yeah Yeah it's so it's so fucked up Yeah I mean And it's and where our whole social media

And everything online is gambling essentially You know it's gamifying Every interaction you could possibly have To be addictive and it's like Hey we're the product of that Although the rare successful product of that Where we're all addicted to the YouTube algorithm You know we're addicted to

You know YouTube at some level you have to be To be able to like gain a following on social media. So it's like it's all it's all tied together and it's just part of our culture and it's like there are responsible ways to do it but the way like you watch the Golden Globes and it's like a Calci ad on the bottom of it the whole time like prediction. Even on the gold even on awards ceremonies they're doing the gambling ads now?

Golden Globes at the bottom of the thing the whole time they were showing predictions for the who would win. Oh no. Yeah. That's funny. No that was it. Yeah. The amount of sectors that when they like twigged on,

the integrating gambling psychology, yeah, into social media algorithms, into video games, into all this stuff. Online shopping. Yeah. Online shopping,

all of it. So, it's a net negative, for sure. Yeah. For sure. I know. That's our controversial take.

Yeah. Let's see. If, if F1 wins, Wins best picture. That would be so... You bet $10, you win $2,000.

But you also have to expect you're not going to win, right? Yeah. How mad would you be if F1 won best picture? Not that mad because I would win $2,000. I think it would just be very funny. It would be kind of funny. It would be a better win than Hamnet. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm just... Not to know about that one. For like feeling not mad about it? I think Frankenstein winning best picture would probably be the funniest. Yeah, I don't know. No, F1 would be the funniest one for sure. F1 would be like, why did we even care about the Oscars?

Like everybody would just like kind of laugh about the fleeting existence of time, you know? we're all just here for the right I mean I'm already kind of there to a degree with like like it's fun like in a frivolous kind of way but like I don't actually I don't think it like elevates a film for me if it wins an Oscar

you know like there's like a pump to it I like artists that I like getting easier time funding their next project yeah that's the best thing about it for sure yeah all right next next question let's do this one from Exploding Ninja

three of the four four hosts of this podcast have at some point in time been part of that angry reviewer trope that used to be very prevalent on YouTube. Why do you think this trope was so popular? And do you think it's dying out? I don't think it's dying out. I just think it's been like moved in kind of a politicized. Yeah. Cultural direction. Like, especially with the, there was something a bit more, I feel like ingest or like understood back in the day that there was like, there was something like a real behind it, like an actual like opinion. maybe instead of like, oh, I'm like, I can just be like a bad faith grifter and just like grind

out content on like a film thing. That yeah. Lovers and loads of money. That's not exclusive to the genre. When YouTube first started, it was a bunch of creatives wanting to express something. Now it's a bunch of people looking for money trying to game the algorithm to make the most money. And so that you see that reflected in the content. You see that reflected in the thumbnails and titles and clickbait.

You see that reflected in the sponsorship ads that people take. You see that reflected in the pacing of the videos, the subjects that people cover. And the opinions that people have. Like a lot of it is just fucking fake. Like, it's, yeah, it pisses me off. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it's an interesting persona, you know, like the angry thing. But I think it was just kind of like a, I don't know, a trend, right?

Because ultimately, like, you guys, you guys aren't just mad about things. Like, you guys are covering lots of different things and people want your perspective. I think there's, like, people understood that, you know, like when one side was persona, one side wasn't. It's my anima. But then again, sometimes people are bad at it, bad at, you know, delineating those things. I guess, yeah, there's a difference between having, like, a genuine opinion where you are mad and people like that passion. Right. And trying to piss people off in order to get attention, I guess.

critical drinker yeah I mean like there's you know there's there's a there's a nuance to it in the sense that like if I know I have an opinion already that is authentic

and genuine and a real thing that I'm you know if there's one that I know people want to hear and might be even controversial then I'm more likely to explain to express it in a way where, you know, like maybe the thumbnail or the title is still

honest, but very much aware of like what, uh, what type of reaction people might have and leaning into that while still not being inauthentic. Whereas, yeah, a lot of, a lot of people on the platform at this point, they're literally just, what do I do to make money? Oh, this is my job. Cool. making money and that's it like that's literally the goal is to maximize profits how do you guys feel about like

the persona of your movie sucks and I hate everything as it's like evolved over time and like do you feel constrained in some ways by that like attitude that expectation people have of you to be like you know

have more of a character when you're reviewing things or like how do you guys approach that um Yeah, I mean, like, it's, I don't feel like I'm putting on a performance when I'm at my, like, funniest rants about, like, the new avatar or, like, you know, Lion King or anything. Like, it just kind of comes out. Like, in terms of audience expectation, I think that me over the course of my, me existing on the platform, have consistently been talking about and recommending films I enjoy as well. You know, my best of the year list videos and festival videos and all that.

So there's no, I don't feel like I'm persuaded in a particular direction. Like, I don't feel like there's audience capture going on, especially because the people that are real fans of me, the people on my subreddit, people on my Patreon, Discord, whatever, they know that what I'm selling is authenticity, right? So there, there's a lot of people that watch me knowing that they'll disagree with me on something or if they're caught off guard that I have a different perspective on something they're not just immediately

like pissed off about it they go like oh yeah that's why I watch you is because I know that you're saying something that you believe not not pretending to say what you think people might want to hear at any given moment in time yeah right I guess what like I underestimated when I was 19

and made the channel was how like literal a lot of people take things because my whole like I like at the time it was like I'm inspired by like the cynical Brit you know like total biscuit um you know like mark commode and charlie brooker and these kinds of people where it's like yeah there is a part of it where it's ingest it's for fun it's like channeling that energy for like a level of entertainment um but like you know the internet is gone um and the way

people you know the media literacy kind of side of it i don't yeah i don't know But it doesn't really bother me. Like, I'm fine with that. I don't really care how people, like, interpret or charge my opinions based on the branding. Like, that's whatever. It's your problem if you don't like you. You don't have to engage with it. Like, that's fine.

Yeah, I'm fine with it. All right. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I mean, like, over, I think that, like, if I was having difficulty, like getting press credentials at film festivals or something, then I would change my branding more. But it's nice to know that like my presence overall

among people that actually, you know, are involved in the film industry, making films. You know, I'm, the majority of the people that know about me in those circles know what I am and I'm not just like a fucking thought. thumbnail that people are raging out at on Twitter or whatever, right? Yeah. Like those are people that are not, not really involved in filmmaking. And if they are are kind of like bitter people that wish that people were watching the

things that they were making or, you know, often, oftentimes, you know, if you see like a really bizarre, unhinged quote tweet, you look at their profile and it's like, what's the first thing there? Oh, their letterbox page that nobody follows. Right. So you have to imagine that they're just people like, why do they listen to this guy's opinions? And you should be listening to my opinion. Like, okay. Okay. Yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of, don't look at the comments on letterboxed ever. That's, you know, I don't have a letterbox. I know. They're kind of funny sometimes. It's on hinged. No, it's like, people are so very, very, very, very personal about when you don't like something they like, you know. And it's just like I, I do this. that comes with maturity over the years of just like, hey, it's, it's good when you disagree on things. I think that's good. Yeah. And like, you want a range of opinions, like, as well. That's what I just didn't get. It's like if you're outside of certain bounds on something, then it's an issue

or like some kind of drama, quote, unquote, in any way. It's like, I don't know. It just feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of what is supposed to be like fun and sort of silly. not that serious about it. Obviously, art is serious, but like, it's like, that's to be relative about this, okay? Like, you don't know who I am. It's like an anonymous voice online. Like, why is I getting to such a degree?

You know, like, what's going on there? Alex, it really hurt me when you gave the Lion King a seven. I bumped up. I bummed up. It's not enough. Don't know, I guess we've got to end the show. Wait, you gave it a seven. I did.

I did. I did. I did. That's crazy. That's like if Adam gave Night of the Hunter a six. I'd like, and piss me off. Damn. Oh, good questions. I don't know. Do we have time for one more? Let's do a quick one winding down with this one from MT Law 5-2. This one's for Jake.

Did you hear about Brandon Sanderson's adaptations being greenlit by Apple TV? Specifically, Miss Bourne is set to be a movie. Sanderson already in the process of writing the script. Stormlight is supposedly going to be a live action TV show. Seeing as you're a fan of the books, do you have any thoughts on this? What are some casting choices you'd like to see? Sanderson has already said to have creative control on his IP adaptation that's never been seen before, making this truly a never seen before type of deal for such a massive IP that is

in the Cosmere personally. If done correctly, I feel like this has the potential of really becoming a cultural phenomenon as big as something like Marvel, while also being as good and as good. unfaithful of an adaptation as Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. Any thoughts on that, Jake? Have you guys heard about this? You guys know about Brandon? No, I don't know this story. Is there like a brief like elevator pitch? The name is really familiar. Who are there again?

So he's a huge, huge, huge fantasy author. None of his work has been adapted. So he's kind of unique in that way. He's built a huge fan. I'm very, very successful. And yeah, I have read a few of his books and I like the Stormlight Archive and stuff. And I did reviews of his work, you know, like early on on YouTube. So I love Brandon Sanderson. He's, I met him. He's super nice guy. So this is super exciting.

I get why people are excited about this, the fact that he has so much control over it. It seems like the kind of thing that they, him and their team have been pushing towards getting all along because of fears of like it becoming something like the Witcher, you know. There's so many ways it could go badly. Right. So I'm hesitantly optimistic. Like on one level, it's great that he has huge control over the show. However, it is still like a different beast and his expertise is in writing novels. So it's just a different thing.

And I do, I like the optimism of this commenter being like, hey, is this going to be the next, this could be the next Lord of the Rings. And respectfully, no, I think that time has passed. I think there's a one and only Lord of the Rings, and I don't think we're going to get that again. But it could be popular, you know, and it could build momentum and people could be fans of it. But also, it's going to be on Apple TV and how popular can something on Apple TV get? Yeah, setting next Lord of the Rings as a potential expectation for anything is probably not. No, no, no, not going to leave you fulfilled. I think it'll be better than the Wheel of Time show, and I'm hoping it's better than lots of other shows.

I hope it gets a kind of following. But yeah, I think it's good to be realistic about it. And like, yeah, hopefully it's good. That'd be awesome. I would love to see a good stormlight show and Miss Born movie. Dank. Thanks for the questions. Thank you.

Yeah, who's requisite? Recommendation. I think it's mine, right? I'll take it. Wait, wait. At least we got the older. Is it mine? I just know it's not me.

I just know Amy. No, no, yeah. I do a sorcerer. Sorcerer. Then it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1994, what happened was, is the title. Written and directed by Tom Noonan recently passed away.

Oh. Never seen it? I've never heard of this. Never heard of it? Okay. It's supposedly was very, it meant a lot to Charlie Kaufman. And Tom Noonan played Sammy in Synecichie, New York. Yeah.

So we're checking it out. out. Cool. Should have checked it out before. Exciting. So many of those. Time be passing. Yeah. Cool. All right. If you don't want to be spoiled for what happened was, watch it before the next episode. These episodes come out every two weeks. You can listen to them early. Go to sardonicast.com. Sign up for premium. It's only a few bucks a month. And it's also

ad free. You can get the exact same thing by going to patreon.com slash Sardonicast or click the button below on YouTube join the members thing the episodes are posted ad free in the community tab because YouTube is weird and we're not going to explain it every time hit the bell you'll find the stuff there subscribe to the Sardonicast highlights channel as well and I guess this message is mostly for you people that are already members and premium and patrons but I believe we got both the Sards joining for my Oscar live stream this episode will be public the day after I guess so if you're listening early then you got this you got the scoop man so that's another reason to get premium okay you get the scoop

before everybody else. I just realized how weird is going to be, how all of are speculating about how funny it would be of F11, best picture how now people listening to this are going to know. Yeah. Well, they should have signed up for premium. Yeah, they should have. So true.

So true. That's their fault. They're in the wrong order. They're in the wrong timeline. Okay? Go to patreon.com slash sardonicast if you want to get into the right timeline and escape the wrong timeline. Y'all are in the Berenstain universe.

You need to be in the Berenstine universe. Yeah. Or the Epstein universe. We're already there. That's the one we're in, unfortunately. All right. Have a happy Epstein didn't kill himself, everybody. Thanks for listening.

Bye-bye. Bye.