Sardonicast - Sardonicast 215: Michael, Peter Five Eight

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Listen early and ad-free at https://sardonicast.com or https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast. Merch: https://ymsmerch.com/products/normie-masterpiece-sticker-sheet Website: https://sardonicast.com Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/sardonicast Twitter: https://twitter.com/sardonicast Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/sardonicast.bsky.social Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sardonicast Sardonicast Highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8AhJ0bzQgs5fb9m_ZCRqkw/featured Adam's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@YMS Alex's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/IHEOfficial Jake's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ManCarryingThing Jake's movie channel: https://www.youtube.com/@womancarryingman Alex's Twitter: https://twitter.com/IHE_OFFICIAL Adam's Twitter: https://twitter.com/2gay2lift Adam's bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/yms.bsky.social Jake's twitter: https://x.com/ManCarrying Jake's bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/mancarryingthing.bsky.social Adam's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/YMS Jake's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mancarryingthing Intro music by: https://www.youtube.com/user/anUnkindnessvideo Timestamps: 0:00 Intro + New Oscar Rules 14:47 Michael 52:01 Peter Five Eight 1:38:01 Questions 2:08:38 Recommendation + outro

three two one I just got tickled that wasn't the intro I tickled myself fuck it don't do that on the podcast we're alive shit yeah well the hell don't start tickling yourself do I have to censor those words at the beginning what's the what's the YouTube policy right now for saying fucking shit you have to censor out he he yeah I I thought it was mostly okay now. No, but then they changed it back or something. I swear they changed it and then they changed it back. Because I thought I was safe for saying swear words in the first seven seconds or something.

And then they were like, then a video got demonetized for doing that. I'm like, wait, did they ever change it? Was that a lie? Don't they charge certain swear words? Like certain swear words are considered worse than others. Like if you say the C one, the British one. The British and Australia. Yeah, the racist against British.

Australians for having that that be equated to the N-word or the F-sler. Oh, come on. I'm Adam from your movie sex. I think you just got to keep it out of the title and thumb now. This is Sardonicast. No, there are three words that demonetize no matter what. I got demonetized for a video on my gaming channel where during a cutscene, a British man said the C-word to another male.

and then demonetized the entire edited video. This is Ardonicastella. That's the only word I've had an issue with on YouTube for a while. As a Brit. You got demonetized over the word crap? Yeah. You know, there are fun workarounds that are actually really useful. So if let's say I'm like in a live stream or something and I like, you know, it's like going to be so funny that I say the word.

but that I forget that I'm like not wanting to get demonetized then I'm just like country you just like continue it into another word and now in the same way that unaliving and all these

TikTokifications of words will now change the meaning we're going to have to censor the word country in the future because I feel like what I'm doing is going to catch on yeah Censoring words out of context is so stupid because it just moves the goalpost.

People will find another word to say the exact same thing. And then you've just made a new definition for an existing word or a new word. No, I think unaliving sounds more elegant. I think that's cleaner. I introduced myself and you guys didn't. Oh, yeah. I'm Alex from I. And I'm going to say, be sober, be vigilant because your adversary, the devil, as a roaring.

lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour that's peter five a everybody that's beautiful i mean amen right um amen all right i'm jake for man-carrying thing and i'm gonna say there were clandestine airstrecks somewhere environmental manipulation somewhere else a world gone mad with ignorance possible harbingers of a coming apocalypse but that was all background haze like the blue smoke i often weased over long summer evenings. And that is a quote from my new favorite movie, Peter 5-8. Hell yeah. Yeah, which it could have been from the Bible.

I mean, it's kind of poetic. It's a biblical film. Yeah, it is, I can't wait to get into those themes with you guys. Oh, holy, yeah. But first we have, what are we talking about? Any news, movie news, stuff going on? There's some new Oscars rules. Oh.

Do we care about those? What are the new rules? Are they significant? They're kind of interesting. You mean the woke Oscars? Yeah, yeah. Let me just, let me pull up a thing here. Now actors can compete twice in the same category.

So previous years, you know, there would be the most notable example in recent history would be Kate Winslet in 2008. She campaigned in the lead category for Revolutionary Road and also in the supporting category for the reader. By the time Oscar nominations were announced, the reader had been moved to lead category while Revolutionary Road did not receive a nomination. She ultimately won, but people thought it was either for the wrong movie or that she should have been nominated for that one. So that one doesn't really matter too much. This has changed my life. I mean, this is groundbreaking. I mean, I've been hung up about that Kay Winslet thing for a while.

Yeah. Now there's very basic and I guess a little vague AI restrictions for awards. Of the AI actors. Yeah, they're like an AI actor can't win an award. It's like, oh. Oh, no. Tilly Norwood is never going to win an Oscar. I was rooting for her.

Oh, is that a real AI? Yeah, that's the AI actor, Tilly Norwood. You don't know Tilly Norwood? No, I thought it was Brett Cooper. No, it's Tilly Norwood. If you have like a deep fake of an actor that's so convincing and that film won an award, but they like didn't tell anybody. I don't know.

I think there's going to have to be like... very hyper-specific language for this because you know they're using the term AI and a lot of animation software like you know avatar is not an AI generated movie but you know by the time the next one comes out I wouldn't be surprised if James Cameron's like oh yeah this part of the this thing used a you know what in fucking sinners

they used machine learning technology to match the double of Michael B. Jordan's face onto the other actor. So, like, that used AI in some capacity for that performance. Well, like, in Avatar even, right? When they're, like, they build these simulations of, like, bubbles and the way water flows and stuff like that. I feel like simulating. That's kind of like a AI kind of process.

They're not doing all of that. They're not animating every bubble. by end, you know? Yeah, no, there's some, yeah, we'll see exactly what the specific wording is. Maybe I should, I don't know if it's possible for me to find this on the actual Academy's page in a way that's not going to have me fucking, like, scrambling for the specific page of the entire eligibility document. here we go. On the Academy's website, they say they have in bullet form, substantive awards, rules, changes include. In the acting category, actors may be nominated for multiple performances in the same category of those performances place in the top five votes, which aligns with achievements or in other award categories. Additionally, in the acting category only rules credited in the film's legal billing and demonstrably performed by humans with their consent will be considered eligible. Okay.

So that's the language they're using for the AI thing right now. Demonstrably performed by humans. Okay. It's like 100% though? Just demonstrably. You could argue that like any Andy Circus animation perform it. Like isn't he trying to go the opposite way? Yeah, I don't know.

Because it's performed by humans but like sweetened for her. Like the animators are doing something. They're not doing nothing. Anyway. In the casting category, the number of statuettes awarded will increase from a maximum of two to a maximum of three. Some dumb thing about cinematography. This one's kind of interesting.

In the international feature film category, there are now two ways to submit a film for consideration. In addition to a film being submitted as an official selection by a country or region via the Academy Approved Selection Committees, a non-English Language film can now be submitted for consideration by winning a qualifying award at an international film festival as specified in the International Feature Film Award Qualifying Festival list. So if you win a major award at Berlin, Busan, Khan, Sundance, Toronto, or Venice, then you would be considered eligible for international feature. I think this is a good rule change

because the country the government of a country first of all deciding what gets nominated we've seen issues with that already you know try try making a film critical of Iran

it has to be a joint production with either Germany or France and they have to submit it right or many times before we've seen this where you know, a filmmaker might say something bad about their government, and then the government will be like, okay, we're not even submitting you for Academy Awards.

This happened with, the movie came out like two years ago. It was nominated for like five Oscars anatomy of a fall, right? France submitted a different film. That's why it wasn't nominated for international feature, despite being nominated for Best Picture. Right, right. So I think this is a good change. I mean, I think that every American film should be approved

by the Trump administration. Yeah, yeah, right? With any luck, yeah. I think this is a downgrade. That's a good point you're making because like that's essentially literally what what we're expecting out of other countries. Right.

Then Peter 5'8 would have a shot, possibly. What I think is very funny is that in every film festival that they list here, so Berlin, they list Golden Bear for Best Film, right? Busan, they list. Busson Award for best film. Khan, they list the Palm Door, also the top prize.

Venice, Golden Lion, Tiff Platform Award. And then Cahn, sorry, Sundance, World Cinema Grand Jury Prize, which is basically like an admission that, like, a foreign language film

is not going to win. Like, best dramatic feature at Sundance. Maybe it has a couple times, but, like, It has to win the world cinema category whereas like the other film festival is like no if you win like the pond door like the top one It's just it's kind of funny American stuff Ooh, here's a fun one additionally the international feature film category the film will be credited as the nominee Rather than the country

So this is an issue that I've had for a fucking while that like You know on on on fucking Michelle Hanukas IMDB he didn't He didn't really win an Oscar because the fucking country of France or Austria. I think France was a more, right? So, yeah, like a country winning an Oscar is just like a weird. Hey, countries are people too. Yeah. Corporations are people.

That's been a way of one for ages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good change. The director's name will be listed on the statuette plaque after the film title. And if applicable, if applicable, the country or region. It'll be accepted by the director on behalf of the film's creative team. In the original song category, the rules clarify a song's eligibility when based on its placement in the end credits.

For songs submitted as the first new music cue once end credits begin, the video clip must include the last 15 seconds of the film before the credits begin. That's funny. That's so funny. Oh my God, Diane Warren, rest in peace. Holy shit, you're done. This is the fuck Diane Warren change. So what is that? So it's like it has to play a little bit over the movie before the credits?

Yeah, so now they're saying you can't just like write a song and then put it in the end credits and it's unrelated to the movie that it has to be playing during the movie. And this is a very basic change that like won't affect anything really. Like the last 15 seconds of the movie You know, it's actually a pretty good change Because a lot of these submissions Are like not even the same tone as the film Basically every nominee is fucked

Of the past several years Oh yeah, Diane Warren's screwed You're not getting an Oscar No train dreams You know like everything is fucked Oh my God Okay Just there's like a couple more here

I'm just gonna see Oh my god This is interesting In the visual effects category All Academy members must view the three-minute before and after reels from the visual effects bake-off to be eligible to vote in the final round. I feel like that should be the case for being eligible to vote in the fucking shortlist.

Yeah, right? How low is this bar? Yeah, no. It seems like they kind of hate movies. It's like any excuse not to watch and engage in what's happening? Yeah. It was literally like last year where they made a rule that you have to watch the movies. Yeah, yeah.

Here's the rules, guys. You have to watch the movies. Also, if you put a song in your movie, it has to be in the movie. I'm sorry. Yeah, like, what the fuck? Okay, I got to write that down. This is the 99th Academy Awards coming up. We've been doing it 100 years.

They're trying to tidy things up before moving to YouTube when things get more legitimate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast hosting. All right. Yeah, that was about it. I think we should start talking about Michael because I'm going to have a lot to say.

You're going to have a lot to say about Michael? Just, you know. Michael. Michael, man. Okay. Well, go ahead. What do you have to say about Michael? Oh, my God.

We were hyped for this, right? We will love Michael. We were looking forward to these musical biopics. This is the latest one. It's not a coincidence that most of the advertising has Bohemian Rhapsody right there on the, in big font, in big text. That's the, that's the cash cow they're chasing with this. I should have changed my quote for the start of the show. What was I thinking?

The best line in this movie, you little do-do head. Who did he say that to again? To a child with cancer in the hospital. who he spends a strangely large amount of time with all of the children with cancer in the hospital. Anyway, sorry. Sorry, Alex, go ahead. Yeah.

But what, none of us are so real fans of the Bohemian Nhapsody movie which made all the money in the world. I've never seen it. Despite its quality and also its questionable director. Jake, you're going to have to see it at some point because now it's like a turning point in film history. Apparently. It genuinely is.

The waves, Bohemian Rhapsody, It's like the 9-11 of biopics. There's pre and post-phohemian Rhapsody. Wait, who directed it? Brett Ratner? No, a pedophile. Louis C.K. Who directed?

No, like fucking Brian Singer. Oh, that one. Yeah, and then he stopped directing halfway through either... As you do. From his own personal reasons or because people were talking about him probably fucking children for years is an open secret. Why wasn't he directing Michael? Exactly.

It was just a bit too late. If they started working on this few years earlier, maybe. Sorry, go on, Alex. I didn't mean Tim Dribute. Yeah, but one of the big things with that movie, Bohemian Rhapsody, was one of the issues we broadly had was this idea that there was an interesting character study in here, but these films have to be meticulously broad.

and they're more of an advertisement for a discography than anything. A brand. This is true with this movie. Yeah, a brand. They're really stuck in a bind especially with a character such as Michael Jackson. This film conveniently wraps up in, what, 88, I think as it is, like just a couple of years before the bigger dramas keep happening. It feels like a really dry, almost like direct just.

telling of a Wikipedia page of somebody with all the like glossy bits. Not even that. Leaving out all the controversy section, you know. It can't address anything that's serious. Like he's Jesus. Like he's presented basically as Jesus. Like he is a literally figure. He's perfect.

He's, yeah, he's got his quirks, but it's innocent. There's nothing really deeper to this. It's mostly his dad's an asshole. And that's like where most of the drama from the film comes from outside of the typical just biopic structure of every scene just being like the Eureka moment being captured in this really insincere way. Every one

of these musical biopics does the exact same thing where they're like, they're trying to convey someone who was known for their unique creative slant that made them famous for that. But the films trying to do that are artless. They're utterly artless and have nothing to say about these creative people.

So they feel contrived and fake and go for nothing sincere or genuine. And it's just kind of the same kind of scene repeated again and again. You know, it's like early days of Michael Jackson, in this case, the Jackson Five. It's like, oh, they're in the booth. They love doing the booth scenes where it's a bit rough on the, on the mic when they start recording a song. But then they start finding the groove and people are in like watching.

They start crying and tearing up and getting glossy-eyed and start dancing. Then it starts transitioning into the real song and more. instrumentation comes in and then it's just like a montage of like screaming fans and then just do that like five times but the people who play the instruments don't exist yeah it's about the music but also not and quincy jones is just mentioned but obviously he didn't even you know obviously he didn't have much to do with writing or producing the songs he they just mentioned it by name and that's it yeah they like don't truly care about the creative process it's more like uh glamorized like kitschy veneer of like this process you know Like there be a scene here or there of like how he'll come up with the dialogue or something or just seeing his post-it notes like sprawled across his studio.

But that's not really the focus. It's much more just kind of like this played out kind of loose family drama with his dad and the similar rise to fame thing. But didn't he have it tough and these quirks? But it can never go too deep. It has to be surface level just enough and just hit the kind of beats and keep. feeling good. It's got to be like sugary and kitsy just like the way he would dress his house. If you look at the real Michael Jackson's like decor and the way he would carry himself that's, I don't know, he was definitely a character. And this

film does not explore that in any meaningful way. No, no. Even if you didn't want to include like the controversial elements and you wanted it to be, you know, like a love letter to is music, let's say. You could do that in the same way that like Moon Age Daydream or something similar like that, where you're doing like a pseudo

documentary slash concert playlist type movie with interesting visuals and et cetera, et cetera. The problem is the people producing the movie know that those don't sell as well. What people want to watch in a theater is a biopic.

And the biopic has a veneer right of telling a story about a character's life which this does not do so it is it is feigning being a biopic having a story to tell doing a character study without actually delivering on it and it's very dishonest and fucking manipulative yeah i mean i think you guys are basically getting to the point of how this movie is about a guy who is not a person you know it's just like a symbol a myth. It's pure hagiography. It's just turning Michael Jackson, who, whatever you think of him, whatever you think of his music, was one of the most interesting people ever to exist, probably. Like, his story, if you were to tell it, like his full life story, would be, it's, be an incredible

film if it was done, like, with an honest intentionality. Yeah. Yeah. You know, even if it stopped in 1988, if you were trying to tell a truthful story about Michael Jackson, it would be fascinating. But in order to do that, you'd have to show that he was a human being with flaws. This movie does not show him having any flaws whatsoever. That's just a bad movie. If your main character, he has one oppositional force, and that's his dad, Joe Jackson, who is just like cartoonishly asshole, bad, you know, which he was. But it's like the way the whole movie is just scene after scene of like, I want to do this thing.

I just, I want to have friends. Oh, Joe Jackson, no, you've got to work, Michael. You know, it's just every scene up to a point where it's like, we're nearly done with the movie. And I'm like, oh, he's still living at home. Like, he's still having the same arguments with Joe Jackson. And it just really doesn't go anywhere. The only tolerable parts and the best parts of the movie are simply, again, the music.

When it's like Jafar Jackson is, yeah, he does a great Michael Jackson. You know, the music is great. it again, it's like the same appeal of most of these movies. That's just like, hey, you get the songs and that's what people really want to see. And I think also this movie in particular, it gives people a nostalgia and it helps people to just enjoy the music without thinking about all the messy stuff that came later, you know. And you can just go like, oh yeah, I remember when Michael Jackson was a god who walked the earth, you know.

Here's the thing, though. Even the super fans of Michael Jackson know this is undisputed that he didn't really talk like that. And that was his stage persona voice. Right. So if you're going to have him having conversations with his father privately, have him having conversations with like his lawyer, then if you're making an honest and authentic representation of who he is, you would have his real voice in there. And sure, you don't have to be like, oh, he's a bad person because he has a stage voice. You can frame it in whatever way you want. There's tons of reasons why a person might want to do that.

But to ignore that when this is not even disputed, like this is something that even the super fans don't argue with because it's not disputed. To ignore that, you are playing into the idea that this is about a deity. This is about the fiction. This is about the mythos of Michael Jackson as a brand. And you're not interested in any capacity in understanding or exploring a human being there because you don't want people to know that there's a human being there. You want people to play into the same delusion because you know that that helps your sales. The more he's a brand and the less he's a person, the more people relate to and deify and obey, right?

How many times in the fucking movie are they going to use this phrasing where he says, my fans are my family, my real family is my fans? Like, holy fuck, they know exactly what they're doing. They know exactly that they are playing into the very same harmful, parisocial, right? Unhealthy, socially and mentally unhealthy ideas that allow for people to put celebrities on ridiculous pedestals and treat them like gods. And excuse me, whether or not, you know, Michael Jackson did things that are illegal with children, whether or not he did those things, the more we encourage that mentality in society, the more we allow those types of things to happen. The more that we say that it's okay to treat people like gods and not real human beings, and that's just like a normal thing that should be encouraged to help sales, you're putting more other people in positions of power.

That's how people abuse children. Why do you think people in positions of power are doing it all the time? It's either going to be family members or like priests or musicians slash celebrities because they have that power. They're able to convince parents to just fuck off for a bit. Right? And like have sleepovers with kids or whatever. I don't know if Michael Jackson did anything beyond what is already inappropriate in that sense. Why would we be encouraging situations where that's inevitably going to be.

going to happen more often. Socially, this is fucked up. Yeah. I think, you know, I see a lot of people talking about like this movie and how, oh, well, all the biopic deify, you know, and to some extent they do. I mean, I think a complete unknown, the Bob Dylan movie is unique in that. It is kind of deifying Bob Dylan, but also depicting him as being like a little asshole jerk, you know, and but that's kind of like part of the Bob Dylan brand, you know, at this point,

that's like, that's who he was. And that was part of the appeal too. So, but people talking about like Elvis, for example, like, whatever you think about Elvis, I think Elvis is a much better movie than this is. Elvis is basically told from the perspective of his manipulative manager, Colonel Tom Parker. And that'd be like if this Michael Jackson movie was told from the perspective of Joe Jackson, right, or something like that, where it's like Elvis is not depicted as without flaws. Like he has this tragic trajectory and, you know, basically ruins his own life. but like we don't even get to see any hint of that in this movie and again everyone can just say and i hate this defensive like everyone's just being like well it's before 1988 it's like well he was

again he was still a human you know i would like to see perhaps the drama of how he made his music even when the movie like surface level like usually in these movies you get to see people in the studio like struggling to like get the song ride or whatever but then they overcome it in this movie it's like there's barely any of that everything just clicks and works. Like, he just comes up. Like, if you watch this movie knowing nothing about Michael Jackson, you just imagine he created all of the music totally himself, divine. Like, Quincy Jones was just kind of like going, you got it, Michael, you can do it. You know, like, that's just the impression you get. I'm going to attach my name to this and make money off you, even though I did nothing.

No, it's like when you learn about the making of like thriller and all, like the insane amount of work. And Michael Jackson was an incredibly competitive person, extremely tough, you know, I'm sure, on the people he worked with and on himself. So it's like, there is the drama that could be extracted from that. Again, if you're willing to look at him as a person and not as a brand. And, you know, Adam, you're right. Like, that's the main issue here. Like, if you go in wanting a commercial, then you're going to get a commercial. Well, about his relationship with his family. Yeah. They say like five words to him. But that's supposed to be like the focus on.

of it like he's got all of his siblings where's janet there's like one scene with them you know it's so much focus on the diet kind of character which i know i understand to a degree because i swear all the conflict in the movie's coming from yeah um but otherwise yeah it's just falling into this eternal problem these films have where they can't go outside these certain bounds so they just turn into a checklist of iconic moments that you already know they're basically member berry films you know like they're and all of these performances are so well done documented, you can watch them on YouTube, basically, or any number of different ways. So they're offering nothing to me, you know?

Like, if I want to watch, like, a Michael Jackson performance and not think about everything else on top of it, I could just watch what they're recreating here without this kind of facade that they're stringing it together in like an overall narrative, especially with, like, I guess, minor spoilers with the way this ends, the abrupt way it ends. as like a tease kind of for the next movie. That was like the most interesting part of this. We don't know if that's happening though. We have no idea if that next movie is happening.

There's rumors. There's some stuff that's being talked about right now with what was cut from the movie. Yeah, can we dress that real quick? Yeah, yeah, go for it. Well, I mean, from all I know is that the studio thought they had permission to make the story and include the stuff

surrounding his allegations. And I believe the original script would have ended in 2005, I think, when he got that particular case of those allegations were dismissed. So there is a third act of this movie that has been filmed. You can see certain screenshots of like Jafar Jackson, like looking very pale on Neverland. Like they totally, so they have footage where it seems likely they're going to do a second movie. but it's like, what are you going to do there? How are you going to address these things?

Because based on how the first movie addresses Michael and treats him like a god, how are they going to do anything to try to address the allegations and all this period of his life in any like considerate or measured way? Or is it just going to be like Michael is a god and remains to be like, you know, like I just I don't think they're going to do it. you don't think they're going to do a sequel at all? I think that the value of the brand

is more money than what the next potential film would make by like either teasing or half-heartedly covering those allegations or whatever way they frame it. Like, there's no way... I think they're going to understand that there's no real way to like write that, even if they have their own version of events

that's not just going to have less people supporting. There's almost no way to make him look good. Who knows? Maybe it's literally just that powerful, right? This is one of the reasons why it's such a negative thing for society to have like insane celebrity culture where you're not thinking of them as human beings anymore. It's because like, who knows?

Like maybe it's literally that powerful. Like how many fucking, how many crazy, people out there are still listening to Chris Brown and saying like he could beat me up like I don't yeah you just know that they're scrambling right now to think of an angle we need an angle right now

because this is doing this tracking better isn't it than Behemian or Absidius like nearly Alvinilly as we record this like it's upenheimer yeah it's beating up an I'm like wow this is they want more of it obviously I think they're going to do it I really think they're going to do it but I think yeah

I don't think they can resist that kind of But it is way more interesting Like from a problem solving level Like what does that film actually look like Because that's all of the kind of interesting part If you're going to treat it like this Also I don't know It was kind of funny to me this film

And like a damn you really You really think this little of me There's an audience member And it was making me laugh a bunch of times Especially with that How do they phrase it? His story continues when that text is just kind of like awkwardly.

How vague can we make this? Seems in. I was laughing out loud at a few different times and like all the scene chewing and just like kind of how corny and over the top it was. On a scene level, my favorite scene perhaps was when they spent

such a long time recreating thriller. Like exactly. Like the music video, it looks fantastic. It looks just like thriller. The only thing that happens in, the scene, Michael, like, they pause shooting and he walks over to John Landis, who was directed thriller, and talks to him. He's like, hey, John, can we like maybe, like, widen the shot so that you can see my feet? So it's like, singing in the rain, you know? And he's like, that's a great

idea. Michael, we're going to do that. So you can see your full body as you dance. Oh, sorry. I didn't know that I should capture the body movements in this dancing music video. Like, that happened for sure. I have no idea. I did that, you know. But that's like the extent of his creative collaboration that's shown in the film where it's just like he occasionally just like hey can we maybe do this thing that's like you know obvious and he's like whoa michael holy shit and oh can we talk about beat it sure um how he just gathers how how awkwardly he just gathers like a bunch of la gang members to show up and yeah well because he was watching the news in the recording studio and the news segment came on saying gang

violence, making youth hurt themselves and one is bloods and one is crips and they wear different clothes and they do things to each other that are bad and they also do drugs and he's like, I got it. We're going to heal the world. I think Michael Jackson with that success, he should have talked to Israel, Palestine. We wouldn't be in the situation today if he just chose to focus his music healing abilities on that situation. Yeah.

I think like that scene kind of demonstrates how he can just kind of like divinely, create a music video without like planning or anything and just kind of show up and be like, yes, this is what we're doing. It's going to be great. And then do it. Sometimes you just have to will it to happen, you know? You don't really have to plan or think or write or collaborate. You just like, do it. In the context of the movie, it's just a, it's a non sequitur. You know, like it doesn't really link or like build on anything. It's just like, you remember this? You have this music video? Then it's just completely siloed off and then it's just on to the next one. with like no like theme really connecting them.

It's just kind of very and then and then and then and then and then and then you'll see the next one I guess. Yeah. There you go. And for all I know, his only friend was his driver, which I know. In a monkey.

But and a monkey. Yes. Thank you. Bubbles, the terrifying CGI monkey, chimpanzee. Yeah, I was laughing at that too.

Yeah, that was dumb. CG was funny. Bubbles who is still alive. Bubble is. Yeah. He's going strong, apparently. But the way they were, like, so desperately trying to sell this image as if there was,

this is just totally above board and normal, all of this. He's a very, all of this behavior. All the animals on his property, like the giraffe, like, yeah, this is not bad or weird. Yeah, and it's always played for gags. You know, it might be building something serious, but undercut with gag. Yeah. Oh, there's a funny giraffe walking in the background. Exactly.

He's just quirky. And then just the way that information was delivered in all of these aspects, as well. Like, I'd like you to meet a new member of my family. Like, just pulls up. He's, and his name's Bubbles. And I saved him from a place where they were doing experiments on animals and stuff. Like, okay, that's it. Cool. Like, no. Okay. Yeah, no one's like, what about when this guy grows up a little bit? What are we going to do? Oh, yeah. Like, it's going to hurt you or somebody. Do you guys like all the Avengers end game teases to Neverland Ranch? I was just like, I love Peter Pan, and I just want to be like Peter Pan and have a Neverland

ranch. It was, it was Marvel shit the way they were like shoving that in the frame. How often he was reading Peter Pan? Yeah, Michael Jackson will return in Doomsday. Yeah, it was funny like that, the way it was like, it was so on the nose. And they had a lot of time to develop things if they really wanted to. Because a lot of it was really repetitive. I'm actually shocked that it was just like the one arc by the end of it.

I was like, what? It's just with Joe. One scene I found particularly funny is near the beginning when the Jackson 5 were performing on stage. And Joe's in the back and a woman goes up to him. And she's like, they're really talented. He's like, yep, I make them talented. She's like, we'll be in touch. And just hands a card of, I'm a record executive and then walks away ominously.

He's like, yeah. It's like, okay, like that was the conversation, just the most cartoonish version of reality possible. Yeah, these movies love doing that, though. They've got to have like the creepy exact scene in this case. It's what Mike Myers just like shows up, which again, I was laughing. What? Like he's like the MTV guy he's getting trying to get the music videos and they've got to explore the racial elements slightly because of the time period and everything. But it's only just kind of glossed over.

it's just kind of like lip-severs Mike Myers fixed racism and yeah yeah again there's like so many interesting elements you could have like like it like the turn in terms of the racism and MTV like that that's all very interesting but it's just like

if you introduce that in one scene and then fix it in that same scene then there's no sustaining like power throughout the film like either introduced that much earlier you know or like I don't know there was a checklist every single scene was either just like more music or literally just to fulfill a check on the checklist that really like only exists to promote his image right even like the the the Pepsi scene which was hilariously edited when he when the hair gets caught on fire it goes slow mo and he's like

that was very funny um you know he's he's he's like in the hot hospital, oh, it wasn't even from that. He was in the hospital earlier for like his plastic surgery or whatever, being like, I got to look perfect. And that would be like the closest thing to like a character flaw. I could point out in the entire movie is that he's like, I got to be perfect. I'm going to get a nose job. But even so, they use that as a vehicle to solidify a perspective on like a common belief or one could say conspiracy theory about his skin color changing over time.

So he, in that same scene, there's like a nurse practitioner or somebody that's like, is that everything for you today, Michael? He's like, no, I don't need anything. I'm just here to pick up my Benelin cream for my Vidaligo. Just shows it on his hand. It's like, okay, yeah, well, like he technically had Vidaligo, but I feel like things can be true, more than one thing can be true at the same. time. Like, he can have Vidaligo and also be changing his skin color to white over time.

Because he's, like, he's the single most body dysmorphic person in popular media of the 80s and 90s. You know, he did so many different mods to his body and his face. And, you know, if you, the, the, thriller music video costume designer talks about how, like, her main goal was to, like, fill out his body more. because otherwise he would look way too scrawny. Like, that was the entire purpose of the costume was to broaden his shoulders and, like, fill out the waist and shit. Like, I don't know.

There's, there's, there's, there's more interesting stuff there that they just don't explore or touch on because they want, they want this deity, they want the mythos, they want the legend. It's a religious story. It's like fucking Noah's Ark, you know? And it's an amazing, it's a fascinating story. Like, there's so much that could have been covered in this movie.

Like, it's just, but when you're, like, not allowed to make him appear human, then then you just can't have any of that. And then, yeah, it is just, like, clip shows of all the good songs. Hey, Billy Jean, it's a good song. Thriller's a great song. Bad. Yeah. We'll have to wait until the songs are public domain to get a good biopic.

Honestly, yeah, because, like, how would you guys feel if someone was like, hey, let's do a Michael Jackson movie? but without any of the music, kind of like how Sophia Coppola did Priscilla, you know. There's a way to do it. You could do it. There's a way to do it. It'd be difficult, but you could do it.

You'd have to actually have an idea. A, you could either not use any music whatsoever. B, option B, you could use enough of it in small enough ways where you can make a fair use argument and you'd have to be ballsy and know you're rights and have a good lawyer. See another fair use argument, I guess. You could... There's no way that would work. No fair use argument would work. What are you talking about? What do you mean work? Not work. The fair use argument? No, they would crush that in court. Like, there's no way. Like, they wouldn't... I mean, they would fight it, but that's not a, that's not a

guaranteed. Fair use is a very, very forgiving copyright exemption in the United States. Right? I just... There are many, many ways in which fair use can be. argued and won. The biggest reason why more people don't do it is because they're scared in ways that are overcautious because they don't want a lawsuit, right? You want to avoid a lawsuit altogether. That's the main goal of like

legal. They'd have to have more money than the Michael Jackson estate, you know, or influence. Not necessarily, but I mean, yeah, you'd have to have a good lawyer. And then third option, you would also have to have a good lawyer. do a parody film. And then the songs themselves don't have to be the same songs,

but you could do like Weird Al parody style. And then if the entire film was a parody of the film Michael and how, you know, how it's hiding all of these real things, you could actually playfully explore those real elements of Michael's character in a more authentic way, but still have it be a joke.

And then all the songs can be like, I didn't touch the kids, or whatever. want it. That'd be creative though. So Weird Al is the only one who can do it. No, more than him. You'd need a creative salon. That's kind of what it would take. There's ways to do it. But these films are not allowed to be by design. They cannot be creative. They can't. They're like not allowed to be by from they dog. Exactly. If you want to use the music. Yeah. Because the rights holders write the film. Also, the lawyer that Miles Teller plays produced the movie. Yeah.

I wonder why his character is also treated like, you know what? I knew immediately from the moment I saw you that you were the most talented there ever was and ever will be. And he was best friends with me and saw me. He picked me out of a crowd of 40 lawyers and said, I want to work with you because I knew the skills. And I was there at the beginning and I saw it before everybody else did. Like, okay, you produced the movie. Wow. And he had special little moments with Michael, you know, getting him the Disney merch.

Yeah. No, the entire thing is a fucking fiction. It's a fantasy. It's not a biopic. It's so embellished. It's crazy. Yeah. It's like more fictional than Better Man.

Yeah, I was just about to bring up Better Man. Yeah. Because I feel like that is the example of one of these movies like working for me, like what you would have to do. I'm sure it embellishes it and goes wild and mad with it. it and maybe pick someone who doesn't have as broad appeal as Michael Jackson, who does at this point. But it's like an actual movie and it's like fun filmmaking and they do a lot of like remixes and changes on the songs and that's how you do it, but no one cared and they made no money.

Like it actually bombed massively. It's like the inverse of the situation. Oops. Yeah, oops. We voted with our wallets. Is this the worst musical biopic you guys have seen or is there something worse? I think like honestly you're not going to agree with this I fucking I hate it Elvis I think that was like a two and this is a three

I found the Bobbittal one actually more boring than this if I'm being honest yeah this is not a boring movie it's fascinating no yeah I wasn't bored for the whole thing so I actually hadn't thought about Michael Jackson in a long time I'd kind of memory hold him despite how much I'd listen to him

growing up and it's just sent me down this whole Oh yeah, I forgot about like all the animal stuff and the ranch and I've just been going through on YouTube trying to find as many of interviews with him as I could to kind of refresh my memory like, God, yeah, there's something going on with this dude because the film is so unsatisfying as far as like exploring him as a person. And yeah, there is something like on a psychological level that's fascinating about what was going on with him and his childhood and all of it and the way he would communicate and the things he'd bring up in interviews. It was just so surreal. And yeah, the film is not interested in exploring anything interesting about him. I think you're going to enjoy when the highlights video is out for me going on a deep dive into the Jackson family and specifically Jafar Jackson and finding out a lot of like weird shit about their family and just how out of touch and living in a different world planet reality they are. Yeah, that almost could have been a cool like slant on the movie.

was like making it dial up the hyper reality and make it almost like an obscured fairy tale thing or something like that without the self-awareness worked yeah without being honest about it mm-hmm pretending to be something else and what's the deal with the lawyer like uh why is he because he produced the movie yeah like it's just insane he was so important to the story yeah all section yeah had to be the Like Miles Teller, like you did Top Gunn and then this is, I don't know, like what are you doing in this movie? He's in the hits. He's making hits.

Making the money. Maybe he had more to do in an earlier version of the movie that involved like trials and stuff. Yeah, maybe. I mean, yeah, the last third is missing. Yeah. Because they didn't realize they didn't have the rights to tell the story until the movie was finished. Oops. Whoops.

Yeah. How does that even happen? I'm so confused by that. And then them paying for it. The producer had an interview where he was quoted, like, this has never happened to me working on any other movie ever. One of the producers. Do we think that they truly didn't know about that or that this is them covering their

ass? The whole thing could be a lie. The whole thing could be a fucking lie. That's what I'm like, I am not, I don't believe anything they fucking tell us at this point. That doesn't mean I disbelieve it. that means I am skeptical of it. Well, yeah, especially with the equity part of that,

with them paying for the reshoots, they put like the estate, Michael Jackson's estate, put something like 15 million down to pay themselves for the reshoots and got some kind of equity in the film. So presumably they're making bank of it too. And who knows how calculated that was? Yeah, I wonder if they pretended not to know.

Yeah. It's so funny, one of the first lines in the film that no I haven't seen many people talking about there's like a like a showbiz guy and he talks to like little baby Michael and he's like you can lie about anything in this industry kid and people will believe it especially your age

yeah his age yeah it's just like yeah no I I see so much hype and marketing bullshit nonsense where it's just like they're trying to sell something and they're lying to sell it I see it all the time because I actually go through like the interview clips right

I see the marketing. I'm like, oh, this is a verified lie that you're telling. Right. So you've got to be skeptical of these sorts of things. So fucking weird. So 10 out of 10 movie, in my opinion, because I think thriller is a really fun song. And I soy faced at the screen. And it was really good.

So it ended on the song Bad as a great foreshadowing for the second. part. And yeah. Great film. Well, the scenes with kids were cool, you know? I'm in the hospital with kids. Him in toy shops, talking video games with kids. That was like natural and didn't make you think of it as girls.

No. It was, he just, he's a child at heart, you know? Uh-huh. The ultimate man child. Three out of ten. Two out of ten. Yeah, one and a half. star for me.

We committed blasphemy. Yeah. Well, thanks Michael. Thank you. Thanks. How much is your life improved from having a Tim Shalcurtain? The most. There was like a point in time.

Well, because it's like the only thing in my new place that is that vibe. Everything else is really nice. Yeah. No, I decided to have a strange shower curtain for my new place. A strange shower curtain? Nothing strange about it. Yeah. Well, I put Tim on it, the important man.

Yeah, it was a custom shower curtain. I'll show you later. I almost didn't pull it up. I almost like, because I was like, oh, the liner's fine. Because it was like clear. It looked nice. But then I'm like, you know what, this is pretty good too. No, I think you made the right choice.

It's just normal. It's kind of normal. Speaking of normal, Peter 5-8 was my recommendation. Oh, my God. It is a neo-noir. It's got Kevin Spacey. There's some other people in it. Don't call it a comeback.

No. And he plays Peter. And he has a gun in it. There's a mystery. He has multiple guns. Yeah, he has a bunch of guns. And he has hot, passionate sex with a lady. Yes.

Yep. Yeah, he goes. I'm more. An adult woman. This is directed by Michael Zyko Hall, who surprisingly has a background in special effects, visual effects. He's where he got his start. He's got credits on a bunch of major films, actually. He did some visual effects for like Incredibles 2, Cars 3, Finding Dory.

Good dinosaur. A lot of Pixar, actually. Prometheus. Mars needs moms. Nice. Shout to Mars needs moms. And he decided he was good at visual effects, therefore he can direct a movie.

And who better to star in his movie? The Space Boy. Frank Spaceman. Yeah, playing the character. from the YouTube video Let Me Be Frank. Yeah. No, I think he posted

Let Me Be Frank and this film might be the result of someone like probably emailing him and saying, I'll let you play Frank. I'll let you be frank. He's like done.

You just give him what you want. Like this, it seems like it was written for the explicit purpose of Kevin Spacey saying yes. Like, like, He would love to play this guy. That's what it feels like.

Because I was a bit afraid that this film would be one of those, oh, they're in it for five minutes just so they can be on the poster type jobs. No, he's in most of the movie and it's glorious in the worst way possible. Oh, it's lovely. Do you know about all the Kevin Spacey YouTube law, Jake? I know that he terrifies people on Christmas by releasing a video where he acts like House of Cars character and vaguely threatens to like release information that like I just know that when I saw it the first time it kind of like ruined my day and it was Christmas.

I made my day the best. I was like I miss it every year that he doesn't post. I'm like fuck it doesn't really feel like Christmas. Yeah. Because he's done four of them. Right. With the last one being maybe the most surreal one yet where he's like being Frank Underwood talking to Tucker Carlson.

Oh yeah, that was fucking weird. Are you in character? Jesus. I mean they both are. Are you Kevin Spacey on? Yeah, it was really fucked. I forgot about that. Yeah.

So I guess and what, this film was actually like put together or at least finished most of its work, I think, by 2021. May 2022. It was completed because of legal reasons had to be held until 2024. it's impossible to take seriously like every scene with him like what he's supposed to take away from this character who's supposed to be this kind of suave like hired gun

he's so cool type guy like what did either of you listen to this with headphones no but I didn't need to because I think I know what you're going to bring up because all of the audio aside from the soundtrack was like

mostly in the left channel and nowhere like space wise it was not centered it wasn't completely it wasn't exclusively in the left channel but it was mostly in the left channel and it occupied no space outside of that there would be characters on the right hand side of the screen and I still

heard them in the left channel they would be singing to songs where the backing track of the song occupied both channels, but the vocals of the character singing would be in the left. Sound effects would be in the left fucking channel. The splashes when they're in the boat. And then weirdly enough, the gunshot sound effect, left channel, but then the echo of the gunshot was in both channels. That was like the only time. That's weird. That annoyed the the fuck out of me. I didn't notice that on the version I watched, but the general like, um,

audio mixing. It sucks. Was very strange. Terrible. Yeah, a sound effect will be way louder than anything else in the scene. So if someone's like holding a bottle of beer, for example, the swishing of the liquid in the bottle is like so much louder than everything else happening in the scene that it creates this kind of bizarre like dreamscape film. Because like trying to follow what's happening as well is also quite like like where are we moving? where we're like jumping between these like random characters that like

they're linked by this central mystery of this like alcoholic woman who's got like a dark past but it's kind of like a really really badly put together like kind of old boy revenge kind of story like in the worst way possible yeah yeah it's uh it was it was kind of a little difficult to follow very like Kevin Spacey's character he's like hired Did he have any personal involvement in this kind of revenge story? Like he's... I don't think so.

He's sent on this mission, but he... There are multiple scenes of him talking to the guy who's hired him, kind of like agreeing with him. Oh, yeah. They're doing the right thing. And like, so he's not just... In a video call. In the funniest video calls ever on that, like, TV.

Yeah. Where he like hacks into the Wi-Fi for some reason. And he needed to have it on the TV through HDMI. For sure, for some reason. And they need to have this over webcam for some reason. Yeah, yeah. The notification is like, you're getting an encrypted call. Yeah, yeah.

Expert hacking. Kevin's calling. It had a really weird level of quality, because I wasn't sure what to expect. I didn't think from that poster that was going to be much. And I remember seeing the trailer around the time this came out, just trying to catch up with what Kevin has been up to. But there is money, some. level of money was thrown at this. It's not nothing, nothing, you know, there's like a helicopter

in there, a few different scenes and locations they're going to, Kevin Space is in there, so maybe the helicopter was not actually in the movie though. Maybe, maybe. Um, but either which way, too much money was put into it for what it is, but it gives it the, the unintentional humor was like just writing that fine line for me. It was like, not annoying and it was just, weird enough where I was just kind of entertained by the way it was moving and how just kind of strange it was and how off-putting it was every single time Kevin Spacey is on screen. Not only for the obvious reasons, but it's like, okay, this is going to be your comeback movie, right?

Peter 5-8, you're not going to do some like soft and cuddly movie to try and like change your optics. No, I'm going to be, I'm going to be this like hired killer, right? And I'm going to have lines like, quote, I run on controlled substances and inappropriate thoughts or quote, I'll make you crawl and beg. Some of the lines he's whipping out. And the way he's delivering them, it's like he thinks he's in like a different movie or something.

But all of the like aura that was once there is gone. He's just kind of this sad, like bloated old man. Which is fascinating. It is. Yeah. I was like obsessed with him. in like the late 2000s. Yeah.

Like I was really into his movies. You were obsessed with Kevin Spacey. Interesting. Interesting confession. Go ahead. And it was really like, it was through him where I really, I guess, first had to face that a conversation that comes up a lot on this show in particular and comes up a lot with the whole idea of moving the art from the artist and what that means. especially in the world of film and someone doing something

like him and how you grapple with that and can I watch house of cards now can I watch like seven how does that feel you know to watch like baby driver now and just grappling with that but this is a weird one where it's like coming back after the quote unquote

cancellation he likes saying he's been cancelled right yeah he goes on like Pierce Morgan and does that whole tour the Russell Brand tour Tap dances in Israel. Yeah, tap dancing in Tel Aviv, you know, as one does. Yeah, so seeing this, there is just like a, there's something pathetic about it. And it's like, I don't understand the motivation from, like, I understand it from his perspective, like, trying to do something, trying to work on anything you can get.

But like, this director, I guess he's, like, pulling every favor. He's been building up over decades of doing, like, visual effects in the industry. you. It's like this is, this is my chance. You know, I'm going to get, I'm going to change Kevin's optics with Peter 58. We're going to come back roaring. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is a, you can't make this movie without the movie being about the fact that Kevin Spacey is in a movie. Okay. Are we done, are we done trashing this film? Yeah. Can we, can we, can we be done trashy this film because this is actually a good movie and I don't like how you guys are talking about it. I was saying it ironically. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think this is a good movie.

You know, is it perfect? No. It has some audio issues, of course, but like this is probably the most interesting postmodern statement Kevin Spacey could make about his, his, himself. Like, yeah, no. It's, it clearly, it is. going for an ironic tone, you know, like the dialogue is super campy and over the top. It's trying to go for this like Twin Peaks, like elevated weird style. And it succeeds. And you have Kevin Spacey there occupying the frame like a pure monster. Like he embodies evil. That's what his character is. He sings. He tap dances. He has, you know, very intimate sexual relations with an adult woman, you know. And it's, it's, it's a terrifying thing.

Like he just appears out of nowhere to, to haunt this woman who's just like an alcoholic and who like beats up her boyfriend. And there's really not much of a plot. But it's about, he never wears pants either. It's about him. It's about Kevin Spacey existing in this liminal space of cancellation. And at the end of the film, what happens? Spoilers. He dies.

But he is cloned. He is cloned and he returns as Peter 5'9. I mean... Peter 6'7. This is genuinely one of the best movies that you recommended, Adam. Thank you. It is so fucking funny. There's a scene where...

It's one of the funniest films I've seen a bit. The alcoholic woman, not to pin that label on her, but that's basically her only characterization, which is fine. She doesn't even play it well. They just insisted a lot. You never know if they didn't show it. There's a scene where she is trying to sell a house and someone tells her, oh, my God, the gas is on in the house. So every character that's outside the house goes inside the house, as you do.

Stand around very close to the oven where the gas is emanating from. They were outside before. Yeah, they were outside. They go inside because they're trying to... Quick emergency. Go inside. They're trying to smell the gas. And then Kevin Spacey shows up.

We don't know why. We don't know how he's there. We don't know what he wants. But he shows up there and he's about to light a cigarette. And as he pulls out his lighter very slowly, everyone just stands there and says nothing. Yeah. That's a good metaphor for the whole film. It does feel like a gas leak hallucination of like a movie.

What was that about? And then when he leaves that scene and that older woman is like, that man was evil. She wasn't acting for that She was just Oh yeah Yeah She just said that And then they kept it in the movie

I could not imagine A better movie fit for Kevin Spacey Post cancellation Like it is True Everything that you want to see It's him acting like The House of Cards guy

And like having an accent Through some scenes And then dropping it through others It's him having the most awkward unconvincing Like sex and foreplay With a woman It's it's

It's him singing and dancing randomly at like this dive bar, it's got everything. And then the action, guys, the action in this movie is so fucking good. He literally tries shooting every, he tries shooting one character of this whole movie and he kills everybody around them.

Like, yeah, I was waiting for that to be like a dream sequence. It's like, what? This escalation was just like, I mean, you know how when you're a great assassin and you kill the wrong person, what you have to do is just kill everyone else in proximity and then just move on with your day, you know? Yeah, if you kill the whole town, then you got her. Yeah, then what?

That's right. You kill her. She's in the town. Because it's important to point out, like, it is trying to be this kind of like dark comedy, intentional comedy. It is. But what's funny about it is like the unintentional side of it. Yeah. I think it's intentionally funny.

I think this is an intentionally funny movie. Not in every way that we find funny, though. You think so? Like, I get it was trying to be like, like, some of the dialogue was so obvious. What's your relation to what you're alluding to? It's like overly written and supposed to be over the top of that. That's not the stuff that was really funny about it to me. Yeah.

It was all the unintentional stuff. Bad wigs. The unintentional timing of a cut. Like, yeah, the wig. Kevin on the canoe and everything. Like, there's a canoe chase. There is a canoe chase. It was making me think of like, the little.

smallest and drama did that. He catches up to her. She sucks. She sucks so bad. Yeah. She's like, help. Yeah. Oh, my God. One funny movie. Yeah, it's, uh, the costumes are, are silly. You know, the, the, uh, alcoholic woman, she, uh, never wears pants. Mostly. Most of her costume choices are no pants. Every time she goes on. to bend her every time she gets really drunk, it just like fades to the next day and then she just wakes up in like the same position she was, except her leg is just like up a little bit. She sat there drinking the booze the whole time. Immediately goes for more vodka.

Oh, it's all gone. And then goes to work and has a normal day. Yes. Her coworkers are chill. And then the man that she talks to at her office or whatever, a couple weird things. about him. First, they don't know how to shoot him properly because his desk is like not a real office desk. So if it's like too high, then it's like weird on his like, I think fake gut or whatever. And then if it's too low, then you just see a crotch shot. And they were going, they were doing a few

of these different ones. Never felt right. Always felt very weird and uncomfortable from a framing filmmaking perspective. But then- Are you body shaming? Am I what? Body shaming. Yes. Well, the script is. So the script, they constantly say, he's a big guy, he's fat. They say he's a large man. You large man. Large man might be his name in the script. I don't know.

They keep referring to him as large man. But he's like skinny aside from having like a beer belly. And then you, I don't know, like it looks like it's fake. Like they stuffed the pillow in there. Like they couldn't find Philip Seymour Hoffman to play the character? He's dead. What? He died.

Yeah. if he is now damn it yeah I think your body I think I you know some people just look like that Adam it's okay

I mean in the I don't know the script implies he's a large man he just he wasn't really He's a large man for for American standards he is not a large man

All right fine fine speaking of the script like man there's some good stuff in here I was particularly fond of the narration whenever that would come in. He's like weird Kevin Spacey like platitudes. It does have a similar vibe to the Let Me Be Frank videos,

which is kind of like opining and just kind of like talking at you and you don't really understand why what is happening. Did you write most of his own dialogue because I'm pretty sure you're doing. It kind of seemed that way. Yeah. Adlibbed. And then when you get to like the scene of him, he sends that like threat.

to that guy and he's reading it in the voice of Kevin Spacey. And he's like, yeah, he's like captured like his ex-wife or something. He's like found, what was actually going on with that guy? There was like a family man who had an ex-wife who was the alcoholic, I guess. And he was sent her the letter. He sent him the letter. And then he's like driving around. Like what was actually going on with that plot?

Like I was so confused. She was drunk driving and then she killed a lady. and what a twist yeah and then the guy with on the tv screen right because he plugged in the the hdm i cable to talk to his friend on the tv was like you got to go get this the this lady you got to kill her and then he wants to get her husband for some reason and is trying to kill the husband and he's like just appearing randomly to try to scare her and then he dances and sings at the bar. How did they,

sorry, I'll let you finish. Yeah, no, thank you. And then he, what he does after that is he has sexual relations

with a lady, an adult lady, and basically tries to, like there's a big focus on the romance plot, right? And she falls in love with him. But then,

and we don't know why. It's not important, but he does this. And then the very next scene, he's just like, hey, you bitch, like,

just kidding. psych and really funny scene show me fish on my wall I love fish aesthetic I bought this house fully furnished with fish stuff everywhere yeah why was it fully furnished

maybe because they rented an Airbnb and it was they had to explore like maybe maybe the place that they rented the film was fully furnished and they were like this is weird how do we explain that yeah Do you think that was intentional set design? Like they brought in all those fish paintings and props?

There were loads of weird details like that. Like, I don't know why it stuck with me so bad. I think it was when Kevin Spacey first shows up. He like gets out of his car and he's wearing a hat, but he takes off his hat and throws it back into the car. So what, he was just wearing his hat in the car and took it off when he went outside? Yeah. I was so confused by that, like a little detail.

And it's just a killer hat. Like, every time he shows up in his little fedora, it's just so adorable. He's just like. That's so odd. Yeah. Somebody thought that looks cool, right? His own outfit for the action sequence. He does not look good.

He looks very worn out. Yeah, and he's supposed to be really intimidating and like suave. Yeah. I think the turtleneck is to try and hide his weird ass looking neck because in some of the bedroom scenes, you can see it. It's like kind of disturbing, actually. It's getting close to Peter Segal territory in terms of like mobility, you know? Like, oh. Yeah, he doesn't have an intimidating physical presence for a character that is an intimidating physical presence in theory.

What I was going to ask is, so the guy who hired Kevin Spacey to kill her for doing a drunk driving. Yeah. Was it explained in the movie? I forget. Like, how did he know about it in a way that authority? wouldn't have. That's a great question. Because that's what the justice system is for is you put her in jail.

Because she didn't even, she didn't even like. They explained it so poorly. She didn't even stop drinking and driving after that point. She continued for who knows how long. And she, she remembers it well enough to know that she, it's a thing that she did. And that wasn't a wake up call for her. So Kevin Spacey's character trying to kill her, like might be saving lives if he didn't kill half the town.

Adam. He needed to hire the best, okay? But not a criminal investigator for the obvious crime that happened. Don't do that. He's the best, Peter 5-8, you know, and based on what's going on at the end of the story, there's been like a tons of, there's been like 57 other Peters, right? So like he just has a clone army of Kevin Spacey's. Yeah, it's Mickey 17. Exactly. Exactly. And it's like it's even scarier because of that. It's kind of like 007, you know, where there's like been all these bonds before him, all these pizzas before him.

Yeah. Are we sure? Did it, did it explicitly say that they're clones or they could just be different assassins named Peter? No, but it showed him sitting in the car, Kevin Spacey at the end. Yeah, but that could have been a flashback. That was like a weird shot that made us think like, what? It could be interpreted anyway. I thought that was too implied he was like still around. I don't know. Well, like, keep you questioning. Even though, like, he does get, like, shot to death and is, like, spat on, and then is, like, double tapped. But I guess he survived.

I think the shot at the end was to tease the idea that he might be a clone. And if not, then he survived or whatever. Or if not, either of him. Or he's got a twin. It was a weird shot. But, yeah, maybe a twin. Or maybe they just did a flashback for the last shot for no reason. Please make Peter 5-9.

Oh, my God. Bring back Kevin. Please make Peter 6-7. What I got from this movie is that, and I remember that Kevin Spacey is such a talent that can we, like, what do we do? You know, like, he obviously needs to make Peter 5'9. He needs to keep making these masterpieces, and he's like such a talent that can't be ignored. Do we put him in prison and then just like force labor, make him,

make movies, you know, but he doesn't profit off of them. You know what I mean? So that we as a public benefit, but he doesn't. I'm just spitball in here. I was like a penance as well as like paying back with his skills. Yes. Right. Tarr should have won best picture that year.

Because it becomes, like we keep talking like we see it being timeless. We see TAR. It's happening again. It's re-Tar. it's going to continue happening for the rest of time yeah this is not the last time we're thinking about tar yeah time is being very very friendly to that maybe

again I still have not seen tar oh my god I imagine it's about like a tire or something yeah it doesn't Kate Blanchette like yell at kids for being woke isn't that what tar is about that's one scene okay kind of that's the only seen some people who reviewed the film have seen.

They watched a clip. Because it sounds great. No, it's an awesome movie. It's a masterpiece. Yeah, I need to see it. The director of this film did an interview with the Hollywood reporter. Oh.

They were asked some questions. He says, he claims the script. was written prior to Kevin's involvement. Originally had another actor in mind, but as the script came together, discussions amongst the producers started to drift towards who would be the absolute best Peter on the planet. And quickly, the discussion moved to Kevin Spacey. The entire crew agreed that no one could play the titular character better than Spacey, he explains.

He says, with a comic malevolence and this lyrical quality to him, we decided to approach Kevin's management with the script and to offer him the role, Hall continues. Of course, this is a controversial choice, if you will. We were very cognizant about what we were embarking on by bringing this to Kevin, but we knew it would be in the interest of the film. The film would be far more compelling with Kevin as Peter, which is true. I mean, yeah, it's how you make it compelling. It wouldn't be compelling without him as Peter. I mean, you know, it might be a little. I mean, he is literally, if they did write this script fully as it is and as it appears in this film, then literally Kevin Spacey is the only person who could have played this character.

With all the dancing and show tunes and this gets kind of funnier too. This is from the Hollywood reporter, this interview. Production on Peter 5'8 began in late 2021. By May 22, the UK prosecution service had charged Space in he was awaiting trial. The release of Hall's film had to be delayed until after the time. trial, the result of which Hall believes validated his decision. He says, Kevin Spacey is a rare talent.

Of 8 billion people on Earth, how many people can do what Kevin does? I would say generously 100. He brings something powerful to the screen, and I think this is one of the unfortunate side effects of cancel culture. Paul explains that after conversations with Spacey's management, he thinks it became clear that the allegations against Spacey and much of what was written about him were, quote, blown out of proportion. This was even prior to him winning trials and having his name cleared by multiple juries, he said.

When presented with the evidence that was shared with us, there was a lot of rumor and innuendo that were completely blown out of proportion. So we're dealing with a very rare talent who I firmly believe belongs on the silver screen. It is a real detriment to the culture to deprive us of Kevin on the screen. Right. Okay, he says, I support the hashtag Me Too movement in cases where actual monsters are convicted, Hill says. But I think it's a case-by-case basis. After giving this much thought and having many discussions with Kevin and his management, I ultimately felt that this is a man of integrity,

and I feel since then that opinion has been corroborated. I don't think Kevin is a Harvey Weinstein. I don't think Kevin as Bill Cosby. I would go so far as to say, I don't even think Kevin is an Army Hammer. I read Army Hammer's texts. And as an amateur student of psychology, I think the man is a psychopath. I think there's sadism there and there's cruelty. With Kevin, there's none of that. There's absolutely none of that. There's no cruelty.

There's no sadism. He is a sweet man. He's a really sweet man. That was my character assessment of him. Hall reveals that Spacey threw a birthday party on set for his young niece and gifted her a director's chair with her name on it. I was going to bat for Kevin. That's, yeah, he really sticking his neck out there for him.

He loves him. Yeah. I mean, I wonder if the other actors involved in this film would say the same or like how they may be reacted if they're like, were they cast before Kevin Spacey? In which case are they like, oh, hold on. Or do they join because Kevin Spacey's involved, which raises a ton of other questions? Like, I'm just like, like, if you're starting out in the industry as a young actor and you're like, hey, you get to be in an actual movie with a lead role. but you're playing it's Kevin Spacey. The monkey's paw curls.

Yeah, that is. Or are you like Rebecca de Mornay, who is like a name known actor? Like what is she doing in this movie? Like she's a working actress? Like what, how does that? Is she like, I just so many questions that I wish there was like a full behind the scenes documentary for this film. That's what I mean about sitting in this interesting pocket. of bad movies where there's

there's some level of connection you know to the industry to these real names but it's also still and it's so shoddly put together like the way of everything is down to like the title design and like the font choice that's like barely legible

was this shot on film it looks like it was shot on film like it looks like 16mm it looks like they spend money on it to an unreasonable degree. I don't know why it bugs me so much the way they formatted the title, like spelling out five and eight instead of just having the numbers, like how you usually see like a Bible reference kind of like formatted. I didn't even like make the connection until the movie opened and was like, oh shit, of course. Yeah, beat a 5-8. But for some reason seeing it written out

like that, it was like, why are you doing this? I feel like it would just be like a better title if it was method the other way. The whole movie's kind of like that. Um, just questionable choices all round, but kind of just alluring the whole time. Like, I was like consistently laughing. What a great comedy this is. It's an amazing comedy. You just don't know what's coming next. Yeah. Once the action started happening especially, like all of the like PNG blood and like the, the wind shattered window. Yeah, yeah. Like, Dude, the director has a background in visual effects. Yeah, when I read that, I was like, well.

He's like worked on like a handful of Pixar movies. Like, what? There's probably a hundred perfect reaction gifts in this movie. Oh, he makes a lot of great. It's kind of a shame that it hasn't been like mined for, for all of these shots of Kevin Spacey, just like pulling up in a car in a fedora. Like, come on.

Like, it's hilarious. And it's screaming delivery, like he just always winds up screaming in a lot of the scenes. Yeah. Which is kind of funny. Yeah. I like when her, when she, when she like, I think she was waking up hung over again and just like her and just like her husband was talking with the weird fake wig. And then Kevin Spacey just like shows up in the background of the window, starts walking towards

and like does emotion like, hey, ha, ha, I'm implying I'm implying I'm going to be. going to kill him. And then she's so petrified in fear. She can't say anything. She couldn't even say, turn around right now. There's a man assassin and behind you. By the time he notices, he's already gone. Brilliant.

I love that. That's a great scene. Impeccable blocking. Yeah. Yeah, blocking was an issue. Even like from the beginning of when we saw her and her husband, the way that things were blocked in the scene or even like in the frame, like using the space was a big issue where they were doing like A and B cameras

between her and her husband being the focus. And no matter which of the two shots, one of them would look like weirdly proportioned like way too big in ways that would be like canceled out by the next shot. Like what? or like her being like way higher than him in that scene in a weird way like I don't know

it was it was it was odd it was just experimental it was like free form jazz you know just like the score it was just trying to be jazzy you know I wonder if the score was a real score if they just like took existing music from like a fucking

it was very low quality it did sound like temp or like stock yeah It rarely fit the scene. It was one of the few things that were indicating that it was a comedy was the way it was using that, insisting with that score. But again, it didn't really sell it.

Can I have just flashed and made it dreamlike and bizarre in an unintended way? Yeah. I just, I can't get over. And I know I keep bringing this up, but the sex scene is just like, it's really. That was a choice. It's really a lot. it's a lot of kissing and like he thrusts like there's some thrusting you know what I mean oh yeah oh yeah like it they go there they they go there and and Rebecca de Mornay it's like

all right you want to be in this film with Kevin Spacey don't worry not anymore you will be very physical with him um like I don't it's it's incredible and so bizarre and I have to think, like, a lot of the choices here were, like, intentionally funny that I appreciated. And, like, so much of it is just, like, what were you trying to pull off with this ultimately? Like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, all right, we're making a movie about Kevin Spacey as Satan. And we cast him, but also watch our Kevin Spacey movie because he's actually a great guy, you know?

Do you think they had an intimacy coordinator directing Kevin Spacey? space seat for that scene. I hope so. God. I felt uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable. I was like, I bet his breath smells terrible. And the complete lack of like chemistry together. Oh yeah. No, she didn't look like she was having any fun with that. I'm so glad this exists though. This was this was a rare type of bad movie. I mean, I had an incredible time. It was, I was genuinely laughing out loud and I usually don't when you guys make me watch bad movies like there's something special about this I have to say this is like the best outcome of a movie like this oh 100% yeah good doesn't out stay as welcome consistently funny catches you off guard constantly just baffling all

round so much unintentional humor yeah yeah this is pretty wonderful it's a movie that tries and what it was trying we're not sure but it's definitely trying something it's doing something yeah It had a style or tried to. Faint choices, the noir-ish presentation. Noir-ish is a good way to put in it. Yeah. Yeah. What was this you put in the Discord?

This Harvey Davis guy? Oh, that's the composer. He looks like a vampire. Look at his teeth. Oh, yeah. That's a really funny picture. Maybe he is a vampire. Yeah.

Cool. Yeah, all around a great. Great production. Lots of talent. Great script. I like when they were in the bar and it was like an obvious fog machine to try and make it seem like people were smoking cigarettes or whatever. But it was just like, it's just like, okay, now they're in another room where they're just going to die of oxygen deprivation. Like we just got out of the fucking the kitchen.

Like how cloudy is it? I like how after he does this thing where he sings the song and like, Oh, yeah. Plays with the pool stick or whatever and, like, strokes the pool stick. And afterwards, he goes to the bar and then, like, a young teenage girl comes up to him and is like, hey, do you want to come hang out with me and my friends? And he's just like a 60-year-old Kevin Spacey just like huffing and puffing. And he's just like, sorry, kid, I got to scramble. You got to, blah, blah, you know, like those choices.

This fedora ain't going to wear itself. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he's just so fucking cool. That's the thing. Like, he's just so cool. And, I don't know, just to have that kind of swag and that kind of, you know, to carry yourself like that, it's impressive.

Yeah. It's got an exaggerated swagger. Mm-hmm. Well, I think that was a great film. And I hope, yeah, I hope they make as many sequels as there are. years left in Kevin Spacey's life one a year

that would be great you know yeah just keep keep playing with the number yeah 58 59 the new Christmas tradition yeah they could do it yeah you should start

just putting these on his channel it's just I want a Blu-ray of this but no one's gonna fucking touch it as a distributor like no one's gonna fucking touch this shit like yeah I'll submit it for suggestion for criterion. Like not even any of the smaller labels or anything.

They want nothing to do with this. It's funny. It's great. Like I would love to have a Blu-ray of this, but like, fuck. I want it in 4K. You've got to stick to 2B for now. Yeah, 2B or not 2B. Because even like everything is shoddy down to it when you like look at it on

IMDB. His current poster that's like awkwardly placed the like three words for the title, like almost off the. It's just so shoddy and badly put together. Yeah, weird film. I've seen it now, though. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I thought there's no way I thought from that trailer, like it would be as funny as it looks, but no. Genuinely is. So is he wearing brass knuckles while he's holding the gun with the same hand that he's got brass knuckles on the poster? Or is that like something happened? Maybe they AI generated his hand. Which one is a couple?

On the IMD. Oh, weird. Like maybe the hand was AI generated And then it thought there's Brack's knuckles there for some reason I don't understand That's just his fist I don't know I think that's a very I don't know

That doesn't make any sense to me I mean he looks great in the poster He looks like he's you know 45 Well he's got his turtleneck on There's some Yeah the chin is gone And you and we're not putting focus on his ears

Well there's some really weird pictures in the IMDB You know, they always have like a collection of pictures with it Some of this is like What the fuck? Like I'll put them in the Discord Because like There's a really crazy one of like

Who's that with the popcorn? Oh, that's the popcorn one Oh, that's Kevin. And then there's this like That's Kevin with the popcorn. Oh my God. What did he do? But then at the end there's like

It looks like Russian or something like Russian movie poster like it looks like Seth Roke what the fuck? Oh my god this is great who's that other guy that's not Seth what the fuck is this

who's the guy those are like in the pictures on MDV for some reason what does that even say okay what is going on interesting it's just the gift

the gives on giving Okay. Damn. You just remember when the allegations first dropped against Kevin Spacey and his response was like, yeah, that's right. I am a proud gay man. Yeah. Just incredible.

That's a bad coming out. Just an incredible, incredible response. Yeah. And then a weird amount of his accusers keep dying and I don't understand. Oh, yeah. Didn't like Morrissey come out and defend him? When Morrissey's on your side, you know, something's up. I think the most damning evidence against him is his Christmas videos.

If he hadn't released those, then I might be like, I don't know what happened. But we'll say maybe the best art he's ever made. True. Interesting, you know. Yeah. I feel like I don't have a hard time watching old Kevin Spacey movies because in most of his movies, he's playing like an evil, like, weird psychopath, you know?

So it's like, I don't know. You watch seven and it's just like, yeah. It's not really. Yeah, that's a weird legacy. Even in like American Beauty, like he's supposed to be pretty creepy, you know? Yeah. Yeah, usual suspects, I like confidential. He was kind of typecast to a degree despite how good he was at that.

K-Pax. All right. What, are we all giving a 10 or what? Yeah. Yeah, it might have to be. Cool. 10 Bitcoins. Yeah.

Bitcoin, 10, sequel, let's hear the sequel announcement soon, hopefully. You better. You better give us a sequel, Kevin, and the director, whose name I've forgotten already. You better. I was just looking if he'd been in anything else since this. There are a couple things listed. The contract he played the devil in 2024, the same year. mentor Kevin in mini market for 10 episodes

and L chief in Toronto for president So it's all coming up with heaven I think Yeah I think he's He'll be back in the awards circles Pretty soon Look I mean we got Jonathan Majors Getting injured on Daily WireSense I mean that could be Kevin Spacey next year

you know true I was surprised he hasn't done that yet you know I mean was that like the last step is the the daily wire movies maybe he he auditioned for the same role as as jonathan majors and he just lost out yeah I think that's why they changed the academy uh awards rules because he I think he'll be nominated for multiple performances pretty soon in the same year we'll see besides like this is happened a bunch of times, right? It's one of the most significant fall from graces, I feel like, um, in this space. Because like he was, he was like in call of duty one year. Like that, you know, like before this downfall, he was. Oh yeah, he was the call of duty edition. Fucking huge. You won multiple Oscars. The Kevin Spacey edition of Call of Duty. He was hosting the Tonys. He was like,

everywhere. He was everywhere. Uh-huh. And how quickly that can change, you know, fascinating. All it takes is a little bit of sexual misconduct at the very least. Then all of a sudden, people don't like you anymore. So I don't know where this is for our, I don't know, okay, unreliable source information. But I was Googling Kevin Spacey Pictures 2026 as one does. And I found an article here that says,

Hollywood actor Kevin Spacey says he's open to do Jeffrey Epstein's biopic. Quote, release the Epstein files, all of them. I mean, it could happen. Okay. It could happen. All right. Let's do it. Some questions.

Let's do some questions. Yeah. Let's do some questions then from the Saldonikas community. Head over to the suggestion thread over on the subreddit. If you don't leave questions for future episodes. just like Janiken K-14 did who says, what is a film you watch for the podcast that you would say you struggled the most with

in terms of finding something to talk about? This happens sometimes. What comes into my head more is some of the, some of the more like notoriously good movies, you know, like a godfather or something like that, where it's so just like in the culture and everyone like knows it through osmosis. Normie masterpiece

Yeah like a normally masterpiece like that It can be the hardest If you do if you You know agree with the general consensus To have like a interesting take or slant You know what I mean Yeah if you don't want to just repeat What other people have said for fucking 40 years

Like what's the whole What's the point? Sorry Yeah I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the time Like a Peter 6, 7 Can have like a

a bigger like conversation because it's just kind of more to pick at sometimes when it's you know on the level of something like like a godfather would probably be like my answer when you made me watch

Rogue One I think that was more of a punishment for our audience than it was for me because I just like yeah you're pissed well I was just I was just I disassociated Was that when you had the the one out of ten all Star Wars film? That was a

after that moment that was after that's why well that's you because i yeah i made my weakness public and you exploited it nice and that was one of the star warses that i hadn't seen i guess and yeah i was just fucking like what what is there to say about it and then it was just the two of us that was post ralph pre jake sardonic cast and i didn't have anything to say about the movie i'm like what do what do you want what do you want me to say i hear i haven't looked at to that episode, but I hear people talk about it as kind of like a moment, you know. It was like a turning point in the history of the podcast. Yeah, there were a couple.

It was that one and what the Prince of Egypt won during that era. It was a people man. Prince of Egypt going was fine. About you, Jake. He hadn't been done as many on the cast, but he had this come across for anything you've seen so far? I'm not I don't know I feel like there's I mean Yeah I guess with like certain films There there's I guess like more animated films

I usually I have I struggle to right right Like if it's like a great animated film I'm just like yeah it was good Or if it was bad then it's just I don't know you guys are much better And you have a better understanding of like animation itself so like I don't really know what else to Add or put in there besides like either writing isn't this scene was bad It didn't work, but like, even visually, like, I just saw Animal Farm and I couldn't really tell you, like, what was wrong about the visual style, even though I know it felt it hurt my soul when I looked at it. Like it just- Yeah, so I'm very off about that film. It felt wrong, yeah, to look at.

But I couldn't explain why. I'm sure you guys would be able to. But, yeah, that's one thing. Yeah, I'm curious to see that one, but I couldn't find it anywhere, playing anywhere. I'll watch it on digital. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a cautionary tale. Speaking of animated stuff, actually, Pelican 1-22 has a quandaryum, curious what you guys think.

What are y'all's thoughts on the new Avatar The Last Airbender animated movie leaking early? Do you think it's unethical to watch it this early, even though it's apparently finished? So how do you guys feel about the ethics of watching it? I don't even understand quite how this happened. I guess they made a straight-to-streaming Avatar The Last Airbender movie. It's like the Ang movie or something. and it's somehow leaped I guess through the process of getting it

onto a streaming service is out there and people are watching it and talking about it how does that happen? I don't know but it's out there but what do you guys think the ethics are of checking that out or talking about it or

you stand on that I'm not sure because I was kind of tempted of trying to find this and see what it's like but I mean it depends on if you were going to watch it anyway I probably would. If you were never going to pay for a ticket in the theater, then it's not really a loss of a sale.

But in that sense, if you were never intending on buying a ticket in theater, then perhaps there's even the possibility for it to be something that connects with you so much that it results in a sale. That's just my experience, but I know that there's a lot of other people that exist on this planet. There's plenty of people that just don't want to pay for something. And also, just not doing financially great right now and the best economy of the world has ever seen.

Yeah, I mean, there's a nuance to it. There's a, it depends on the individual. If I were making something, I would probably be a little pissed. If I have a release date that I can't change, I think the inflexibility of the theater industry is, you know, what's driving this to be more of an issue because like when is it like it's still not out right no i don't think it's supposed to for many months from now yeah so like if the if the film is finished in a perfect world you'd be able to be like oh shit the film just got leaked okay we're going to release it early or something like if you if you're that if what you feel is happening

is resulting in a loss of sale X amount of times every day, then you probably want to just release it early. I wonder why they can't do that. I have no idea. It's more complicated. It must be some legal thing. I don't know. I don't think it's supposed to come out to October still.

Yeah. So that sucks. I can't think of a time where this has really happened for something this kind of high profile, outside of the odd major leak for like a video game or something like Last was two was quite a big leak

but that was like kind of unfinished or wasn't like the whole thing in the same one it's like beats but this is like the whole last movie I don't know if you can really blame people once the once Pandora's box is open

once it's out there like it's kind of over so you should really be trying to fix those leaks really yeah I wonder how much it affects it because there's plenty of films that do well theatrically that there's you know tortillas available in high quality yeah that you could find that like if i'd spend money down i'd assume not that much

for something like this you know especially with it's like target demographics and whatnot um yeah but what about you jake if it was something that was a bit more maybe intriguing to you if it was like a dream movie that leaked early, do you think there's anything morally bad about checking out? What will be your stance on that? I wouldn't be able to figure out how to find the leak, so I wouldn't be worried. You're a zoomer.

I would just be like, okay, so some people want to see it that way, and it probably wouldn't even look that good. Like, I'm not putting in the work to go do that, guys. Come on, I can wait. I have time. I'll do something else. There's nothing. I can't imagine anything I want so bad that I would just be like, I got to go see the leak.

Like, I don't know. And Avatar of the Last Airbender fans, I mean, God bless them, but I mean, they're insane, right? They're like notorious. They're pretty intense. They're crazy. They're no Michael Jackson fans, but like they're a burghers. Look, I just, I don't understand. And to be fair, I have not seen Avatar the Last Airbender the entire show.

But, you know, sometimes it's just. a little too much, guys. Like, let's, let's settle down about Avatar the Last Day. I'm sure it's good. I'm sure it's good. But I feel like sometimes people are, are, like, weirdly defensive about it because they're like, oh, people think it's just a show for babies. And it's like, I know it's not a show for babies, but also like... I have a doinket. Don't act like a baby. Ironically, it's how I knew they were making these, like, movies, like for this year. I had no idea there. even doing this at this point. Oh, with the leak? Yeah, I didn't know they were making like an animated avatar movie for this year. So it's a promotion. Yeah, now I do.

So there's some advertising going on there. Speaking of advertising, Gal Gumbo has one for us. With the new teaser trailer for Zach Greggar's Resident Evil releasing, I'm speaking of fan bases too, the Resident Evil fan base is tearing itself apart saying that it's not faithful to the source material. So my question is, what makes an adaptation faithful? Why do we need characters from the games or the time period to be accurate in order to have a good Resident Evil movie? Hell, both of those elements were in the 2021 reboot, and that's a terrible film.

What are your thoughts? So as of recording, this war dropped a day or two ago? There was a 2021 reboot. Oh, yeah, it was awful, no one gave a fuck. Who did it? They've done it. I can't even remember. It was no, particularly notable.

Oh, my God. Not even the worst Paul Anderson. No. it was atrocious I don't know why people can't put a little bit more faith into like I know it's a bit like inside baseball caring about who is making a thing

you know like oh yeah they don't even know any the idea of a Resident Evil movie coming out is not intriguing to me until you attach Zach Kregor to it I thought weapons was great Barbarium was really fun yeah his take on a Resident Evil is like okay that has more chance to be good than all the other of like attempts they've made of like some

Resident Evil as movie. It's the highest chance it has but it clashes I guess against how so many of these adaptations like we just had the Mario movie or that uncharted movie from a few years ago. The barrel is like the bar is so low

for these things. People just kind of want like the Michael movie just like IP slop nostalgia celebrations I guess of like oh thing I know. It's imagery I know, it's iconography I know, I know, I know that's all that it has to be. So when they see like a teaser trailer and don't even have like a fair amount of context they're already flipping out, it's like, let's relax.

You don't know. Like a look I might show up in the next trailer. It's indicative of having it matter too much, right? Mm-hmm. Like if you, there's so many different ways that something can go. In a teaser trailer, yeah, judge what's in the, teaser trailer for sure. Give your thoughts on it. But like, to imply that

there's no way the movie can be good unless it has fucking Leon in it. Or to imply that like, all right, you can't have snow or whatever the fuck they were saying. Like, I don't know. How, how whiny and annoying can a fandom be?

Oh no, the hottest, most exciting horror filmmaker hot off of one of the biggest horror movies of the past few years is adapting our movie, our favorite franchise into a movie. Like, how

fucking awful? Oh my God. Shut the fuck up. I know. Resident Evil fans are fucking eating. Us Silent Hill fans out here are starving. I don't even I don't even care. I tried watching that new Silent Hill movie. That was rough.

I got like 20 minutes in. Yeah, I'll do that at some point. Very sad. No one's taken the video game away from you, you know. No one's taking that away for you. Yeah, it's not taking anything away. And also, like, I'm a little bit scared to actually ask the question of like, what do these people want, you know, like, because I guess it is just like the Mary Galaxy movie. Like, it's just references. It's just, everything's like an ad. So, here's the thing. What we talked about

this last episode, Evil Dead's doing some interesting things, as in they are, you. They are giving a bunch of fresh directors access to the IP to be able to do whatever weird spin on it they want, help launch their careers. I watched the Evil Dead Burn trailer, and I very much felt like, oh, this doesn't really feel like Evil Dead. But I'll see what it is, and it's intriguing and it's interesting. Like, let's see what happens sort of thing, right?

I understand why they're, what's so difficult about having that kind of perspective and just be like, oh yeah, we'll see if it works, we'll see if it doesn't sort of thing. I don't know, it's that IP obsession. It's almost like a... It's not the end of the world. It's like a religious attachment to IPs.

Yeah. Yeah, just not being able to separate it for some reason. It's the same fucking weird parisocial, love the brand mentality that I was talking about with the Michael Jackson thing, right? Like, everybody's like emotionally invested, ready to die for the brand. Like, I will save you, milady. Fucking a poo taking a bullet, Simpsons gift, you know?

Yeah, yeah. It must happen something like tribal, I guess. It's, it's BBS. Yep. Well, we raised children on brands. What the fuck did we think was going to happen? I mean, yeah. That's raising a child now is, oh, the brand, do you love the brand?

I love Pokemon. I don't feel like I should My brain was broken You're groomed by Pikachu I'm only raising my son on good brands like Costco And Monster Energy drinks Oh yeah Yeah

So he's gonna be productive Fuck yeah In life And Coinbase Coinbase Yeah Crypto.com Steak as well

By the way Any of these companies listening I'm open to sponsorships. Just let me know. Oh yeah, especially steak. I'll tattoo my baby. I mean, I'm not saying I won't. I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. It just feels like when we've had fucking a dozen Resident Evil movies already, it's like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe a new direction is maybe a good thing. Yeah. Like, we'll see how it goes. The teaser actually kind of looked interesting.

I had a couple of like interesting bits of imagery in the... I think you kind of have to depart from the games because the games aren't like cinematic, excuse me. No, they're super cheesy. You have to have a particular tone. They're cheesy as fuck. If you were to make a movie out of that shit, oh my God.

Yeah. Like a faithful adaptation would be a big piece of shit. Unless I had the right tone. Unless I had like an early Peter Jackson almost kind of voice. Exactly. Tongue and cheek. Self-aware. Silliness.

Yeah, yeah. But I don't know. At this point, when you've been online long enough, it's just the same pattern. Like, big IP franchise thing. It's exhausting. A new entry is coming out and there is an issue with it no matter what, even if you haven't given a chance or whatever. And I guess on a similar line, Dizzy Director 2211 said to Adam, on stream you said you could tell someone was a Star Wars fan, even if they didn't tell you based on how they acted. which of these wretched traits to Alex and Jake have

putting you on the spot I don't remember saying that Maybe it was in your one out of ten It's an amazing question Fucking holy shit What year That sounds like a funny drunk thing I said Oh was it during the like Channel Awesome trilogy

My marathon Yeah Your accidental self-owned Your accidental Star Wars self-hand That's probably when that was. No, yeah, no, because I was, by the third movie in a row, the third channel awesome movie in a row, that one just turned out to be Star Wars references. And I was belligerent and drunk for sure.

I don't know. I'm going to counter briefly, I'll let you answer this at him, but I'm going to counter and say that. I think it's much easier to tell when someone is not a Star Wars fan. I feel like most people are kind of generally fans of Star Wars. but the person who was not a fan of Star Wars, they emit a type of aura that is very unique. Hygiene.

That's true, actually. Hygiene. They have a way of speaking that is precise and often cruel. Calculated and measured. They have a certain sense of judgment about their... True. their perspectives on media. Yeah, exactly.

But what is so repellent about Star Wars fans, Adam? I think it is, the Star Wars culture is indicative of a culture that needs everything to be simplified to them in ways for them to understand. And it's what people who want the Michael movie in the way that it is. is to be, right? Like, you simplify complex stories into Joe Jackson, Bad Michael Good, and that's it, right? You simply, there are so many fucking things I see on the internet where people are like, this is like when the empire did this and they're talking about like a complex geopolitical

issue. And like, I guess some, I guess most people really just do need to see things in that. way. I guess nuance is fucking dead. I have a bit of a theory about this related to what you're saying because I think you're generally true or right about this even though I'm a Star Wars fan. But I think like something that I have learned from being married to someone who shares very few actual like interests and similar tastes in me in terms of like movies and TV and stuff. is that learning that compatibility and friendship and, you know, sharing a lot of similar

traits in common has very little to do with the kind of movies you like, you know? And in fact, it's way more interesting when you're like around people who don't agree with everything you say because then it just sounds like you're talking to yourself all day. Oh, of course. Yeah, definitely. So I think that a lot of people subscribe to this romantic idea that like anyone who you want to be with or date or be friends with, like they need to share and kind of speak to you in the same exact ways about the same type of stuff. So if you if you kind of treat dating or friendship in that way, then someone disagreeing with you on which Star Wars movie is the best one or if Han shot first or not. Like someone disagrees with you on that, then that's like a character assassination.

That's ruining your relationship to them. And that is baby brain syndrome. That is like not having a life, you know. But I think a lot of people, again, grow up on IP and properties and movies and media that like people can forget or they get stuck in this framework where it's like it is so profoundly personal when it is not. It is the furthest thing. Like it's silly, it's movies, you know? Like, I agree entirely. Uh, I think it would be unrealistic for me to, uh, expect to date someone that has like

the exact same opinions on movies as I do. Um, and Star Wars is no exception. I would, I would date. I would marry whatever committed relationship or Polly with a, uh, Star Wars, uh, fan, right? someone who enjoys Star Wars as a film and says, I like it. But I think what I was getting at when I was saying Star Wars fan earlier is not someone who is just existing in a part of the culture and watched the movies and likes it and participates in the ritual of watching the new ones because it's a part of a larger cultural

conversation that you're expected to if you want to be a part of it. what I'm talking about is people who are a part of the Star Wars fan culture, who it is their identity, right? I think there's a big difference. And yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe I'd be open to that as well. But I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I guess going back to what you were getting out earlier, bringing up simplicity of it.

To push back, I don't really think simplicity is the problem with it. Broadness is kind of how it gets as popular as it is. I just think there's something psychologically going on with people that goes quite deep with this stuff. It links into what you're saying about, like, raising people on brands and that kind of thing. But I thought the way in my algorithm, I just had a, it was an interview with Matt Johnson, talking about the, like, the way culturally we've shifted broadly in the West anyway. from having this cultural reference point of like the Bible and you'd reference something from the Bible. Oh, this is like da-da-da.

Yeah. This is like Peter 6-7 from the Bible. Yeah. But now, you know, like people don't engage in it in the same way and we're way more about like pop culture. Now the reference point is like a Star Wars. You know, people say, oh, that's like in Rogue One where Darth Vader appears or whatever. And I feel like that creates this kind of link. this like emotional like deep link people have and they can't separate so it becomes like a

almost like a religious fervor exactly people that it is their personality um which i personally have never struggled with i've never really related with that outside of being like quite a young child like literally on the playground like arguing if xbox or playstation is better you know like last time i engaged with it um but it seems like a lot of people are just like locked into that mindset. Like, it does not bug me that you don't get a shit about Star Wars and you hate it. Like, I don't

care. Like, I can still enjoy parts of it. The way, the way that my brain works, like, I attach myself to brands and media and fictional characters in very, like, hyper-fixated ways that are probably more strong

than a lot of these people who take offense to, to like, a criticism of something. and act as though they're characters being attacked. And that's why I think it has to do with like, you know, an attempted understanding or like education or media literacy or any one of those ideas is just to know that it's okay to love something as much as you want to love it,

but that it's not like a fucking actual religious thing. Like it's not, it's still a film. It's still a fictional character. It doesn't exist beyond that point. You don't need to be a warrior to defend it, right? And you don't need to harass actors that worked on a thing. If you're right. So in the context of understanding that people, you know, have replaced the Bible with Star Wars or whatever, culturally, essentially.

You know, like it matters so much to these people. what the hell who's the guy Luke the Star Warrior the jetty it matters so much to him what he winds up doing

story wise that to them seeing him in the last Jedi toss his lightsaber or drink a green alien titty milk to them that is actual blasphemy to them that is like literally

yeah like if if you if you could imprison someone over it or kill them, like a good amount of these people probably would. Right? Ryan Johnson. Probably would because to them, it's like

their entire foundation for their reality is being crumbled. It's like it's worse than drawing Muhammad, you know? Like, that's the mentality that I don't like. And it seems to be prevalent among Star Wars comic book

movie type people. I feel like any fandom of a certain size. And that's not exclusive. It's not exclusive to them either. David Lynch fans, there's people in there like that. Sometimes they're surprising fan base. M. Knight has fans like that. That was a surprising one. So it's not exclusive to like a genre or anything. But obviously the more popular things you're going to see that more often.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, seeing us, this is already being brought up. I think we got time for that one more just because Jake has a heart out too. Let's wrap this one up then with this final one from Jonesy bitch. Will you guys be watching

Mandalorian and Grogu and IMAX? I'm super lukewarm pun intended on Star Wars. But this is the first time of the franchise minus five minutes of Force Awakens to be presented in the full ratio of 1.43 to 1 for a substantial amount of its runtime.

And hello, is it? Joe replied to that saying, we know Adam will be there opening now. Oh, yes. So we know Adam's a lock. You're going to be catching the glup shito movie, Jake? Oh, yeah, I'll be watching it, but it looks like shit. Like, it looks like an episode of the TV show.

Like, I don't know. It's almost looping around to being, like, funny to me. Every time I see a trailer, it's like, whoa, this looks like actual glup shit. Yeah. Like, people don't even know that the name is Grogu. They just say Baby Yoda, and it's like, they're doing what Marvel has fucked up with for over the past. Like they're not learning anything from this like Marvel's experience of having a TV show

tie into a theatrical film. Then no one wants to watch the movie because they're like, I got to see the TV show or I don't really care about it's a TV show. Also, it looks exactly like the TV show. So why are you paying a premium to go watch this? Exactly. A stupid fucking movie. So I'm going to watch it.

But yeah, it looks like shit. Yeah. just the cultural temperature of what it like means I guess because now all these rumors are like circling that are going to wreck on like the new trilogy and shit they've shit the bed so bad with it like I'm like you're running out of options here I want to see a never-ending fight over the canon yeah we're basically already there with that like and especially this following up andor as well which kind of unanimously is like agreed is like oh wow this is like so good that It doesn't even make sense.

Like it almost like ruins the whole franchise, like how good it is. Can I say what I think will happen? All right. Disney just drives the Star Wars brand continually into the dirt. Let's give it another five, six, seven years. I didn't mean to say that. Sorry. Shut the photo.

And so they drive it into the dirt. Then George Lucas swoops in. He buys it back from Disney at a profit. Okay? He makes a nice little profit on Star Wars. and then he keeps it in a vault until his death. That's what I think is going to happen. That would be nice, a bit sweet.

So I hope happens. It needs to be put away. Yeah. That's what they did with a Robert Rodriguez movie. Is that really? Well, it's an ad for a fucking, like a whiskey or something. It's like 100 years. He made a movie and it's starring John Malkovich and they're not releasing it for 100 years.

so who cares, it's just going to be a dumb ad. Yeah. But I'm talking about it. I couldn't tell you what booze it's for. Oh, right. I think that George Lucas's legacy has only been improved ever since he sold it to Disney. Because, I mean, you look at the way people talk about George Lucas and the prequels. True, yeah.

He's the good guy now. They make a Michael out of him. Yeah. Like literally. They tell a simplified fucking story. It's crazy. Because it's like, whatever you say about the prequels, It was like a single man's vision, you know, that he carried through.

And it's a complete story. And like, what we have now is just a big mess. And I don't think anyone's happy. But normally cares as well, which is like unthinkable. Yeah. From where this shit was 20 years ago. Like that apathy is the real thing. It's like, wow.

That's just how much you shit the bed on this. Like, people were like. drooling, like waiting for this and you fucked up so bad. I think it's going to, I think it's tracking to do worse than solo. Really? Yeah. Dude.

Good. Yeah. I think it's just two hours of glups. I'll be happy. Wow. No, well, it doesn't matter anymore. So who cares?

All right, thanks. Yeah. For the questions. Uh, we got. We got a guest joining the next episode. And I think it's the first guest that I might struggle to pronounce the name of, but I will, I'll try. I'll leave it to you.

Jeremy Perrin. Oh, my God. The director of Mars Express and Last Man creator, I believe. He at least directed something, I think. The first season. The die fantasy music video. And he recommended body double by Brian De Palma, which I have not seen. I love body double.

Okay, perfect. And then Alex, have you seen it? No, I haven't seen this one. I see my watch list. Wow, who's the cinephile now? True. I introduced you to Peter 5'8. That's true.

I'm sorry. I actually, so my brother lives in Montreal. and I sent him a text asking how to pronounce the name just in case I butcher it. And he sent me a voice message and I actually haven't listened to it. So I'm just going to play it. We're just going to see how well I did. Yeah. How does it sound?

Perrin. Perrin. Fuck. Perrin. All right. I screwed it up. Jeremy Peckin. Perin.

Aren't you Canadian? Shouldn't you know this, Adam? Yeah, but I'm not fluent in French. I think that they should teach French, like, fluently. Like, you have the option to do French immersion, but it's not, I feel like you should, I feel like bilingualism shouldn't be like an option in Canada for schooling. I feel like that should be the expectation because otherwise we're not really a bilingual country. It would solve a lot of issues. Really.

And I think, to be perfectly honest, I feel as though the concept of having two languages in your brain probably promotes. healthier like problem solving and patterns of thinking and you know ability to oh so good for you it's so useful yeah the best things you can do it's like learning an instrument it's just yeah those things that are great for your brain yeah he did it a few times sing it in english jeremy perang okay every time you address him on the podcast you should just play that and act like yeah no he says if i'm saying it in english just jeremy perry Jeremy Perrin You're what, Jezo?

Jeremy Perrin. Okay. I hope that helps. All right, there's a little cameo from my brother who didn't even know he was making a cameo this episode. Anyway, looking forward to the guest, looking forward to Body Double, 1984. Yeah, I'm honked.

If you would like to watch Body Double and not have it spoiled by us talking about it, watch it before the next episode comes out. These episodes come out every two weeks. You can listen to them early by going to sardonicast.com. Sign up for premium. It's only a few bucks a month. Or go to patreon.com slash sardonicast.

Or click the members thing in the YouTube. But you have to go to the community posts tab. The posts to get the episode ad free. It's stupid because of YouTube's weird. Yeah. All right. Thank you for joining everybody. thank you for listening. Have a happy 6-7.

Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Yeah, happy 5-8. Yeah, 6-7, everybody. Peter 5-8. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.