Sardonicast - Sardonicast 221: The Odyssey, The Invite, The Piano

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

Listen early and ad-free at https://sardonicast.com or https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast. Merch: https://ymsmerch.com/products/normie-masterpiece-sticker-sheet Website: https://sardonicast.com Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Sardonicast Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/sardonicast Twitter: https://twitter.com/sardonicast Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/sardonicast.bsky.social Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sardonicast Sardonicast Highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8AhJ0bzQgs5fb9m_ZCRqkw/featured Adam's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@YMS Alex's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/IHEOfficial Jake's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ManCarryingThing Jake's movie channel: https://www.youtube.com/@womancarryingman Alex's Twitter: https://twitter.com/IHE_OFFICIAL Adam's Twitter: https://twitter.com/2gay2lift Adam's bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/yms.bsky.social Jake's twitter: https://x.com/ManCarrying Jake's bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/mancarryingthing.bsky.social Adam's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/YMS Jake's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mancarryingthing Intro music by:  @anUnkindness  Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 2:53 The Odyssey 1:10:26 The Invite 1:31:17 The Piano 2:01:47 Questions 2:33:35 Recommendation + outro

three two one someone get these fucking beggars out of here hi I'm Adam this is Sardonicast that was a line from the piano that was very accurate that sounded very close to Pattinson actually that was a good job yeah you've been practicing that in the mirror oh great no I actually haven't the cadence no that was very lucky that I was able to do that then you know well I know Alex sorry whatever. I'm not my itchy and I'm going to go with my dad is coming home. That was my one.

Was that John Bernthal or does he say that in the film? No, no, no. I'm Jake, man carrying thing. The voice you hear is not my speaking voice, but my mind's voice. I have not spoken since I was six years old. Oh, that explains a lot. I get it. I get it.

It explains a little bit. Um, how are you guys doing? Eh, not too bad. All right. It's a loving. What can you do about it? All right. Nothing.

I didn't know. There's a Brooklyn podcast. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know what. It's just like washed over me. I'm in a weird mood today. Mm-hmm. Let's explore that.

Let's dive into that. I think we need some of that weird energy from Alex today. Heat stro. Oh, man. I don't know. I don't know if you want that. Yeah, it is just heatstroke. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Well, finish the podcast, then go to the hospital, but finish this first. Yes. Yeah. Hydrate with water. Yeah, drinking water is good. Or I've got like a bucket of water that I've been putting my feet in. Sometimes, like, that's how dire is.

It is like a Victorian kind of like. Oh, God. Oh, my God. That sucks. Oh, my goodness. Are the theaters at least well air conditioned in the movie theaters? Yeah, that's true, actually. It's fine in a theater.

Then you get out to the heat wave. Is that driving all of the theater tickets for The Odyssey in the UK? Yeah, you've got to like AC hop. It's like the only way to survive, one air-condition building to another. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's how I felt when I was in Texas in August. Just like, how do these people do it?

There were restaurants that had patios and like the locals were just on them. I'm like, this is an oven. You don't, how are you comfortable chilling? I guess you were climbing. climatize after a bit. Yeah, exactly. That's what Phoenix is like. You're just literally inside

in air-conditioned rooms, so you're never hot. It's just you're indoors all the time. There's no... And everything has AC unlike, you know, Europe. But... Oops. Yeah, so what are we talking about, guys? Odyssey.

We're talking about the Odyssey first, right? Obviously, yeah. Triple those. It's the triple the episode. The, the... We're changing our name to the Sardonicast. It's less clean. Can I ask you guys, what is your relationship to Christopher Nolan?

I don't mean personally, because I know you're all, never mind. That explains a lot, actually. No, but like you guys like Christopher Nolan. You've covered a couple of movies on the podcast, right? Do you have a favorite Christopher Nolan movie? Memento. Easily. Okay.

Easily. Yeah. There's like different eras, I reckon, for me. Memento is definitely a high for sure, but I don't know, Inception is also creative and cool. I really liked Oppenheimer. I thought Upenheimer was really sodded in like a return to form after whatever Tenet was. It's kind of James Bond experiment without James Bond in it. I love Tenet. I thought Tenet was so stupid and fun.

It's got some good set pieces for sure, really memorable. Yeah, but up and down though, like overall, I don't, I kind of fell out of sync with some of these films. Like, I don't love interstellar. Don't love Dunkirk. It wasn't really too oftenheimer. I felt like, oh, this is kind of like the older version of this that I like. It was speaking to me through that lens of the story. Just kind of made sense with the Nolanisms.

But the more films he makes, the more they seem, I don't know, they come to the forefront a bit, especially with the Odyssey, which we'll get into. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I've never given. any of his films a negative rating, but I have been frustrated with him, especially as of late. I think my least favorite films are literally just his last three. So that's unfortunate. That's so interesting.

We'll have to get into it. So Hugh Memento is like his peak, like that era? You like early, Nolan? Do you like following? Do you like insomnia? Following was good. Insomnia, not so much. didn't really seem like one of his projects per se.

That seemed like a do a movie for someone else sort of thing. Batman Begins, prestige, Dark Night Inception, all really good to great ranging. Dark Night Rises, cheesy, you know, kind of shit. But like still, its biggest problems are like kind of like the logistical ones. Like it's kind of like a narrative mess, but it's still like dumb fun to me.

So I don't like hate it. It did seem like a weird bump in the road, but not like a, like, what are you doing completely falling off sort of thing. Interstellar, I would love to watch again. I'm, you know, frustrated in memory from one line in the film, but otherwise enjoyed it. The curve of appreciation on that movie has been fascinating because I remember that was a movie I was anticipating so much seeing when it came out and I was slightly disappointed. but I loved so much about it. But now over the years, people talk about it like it is his grounding achievement.

It's his masterpiece. And I think it's a really cool movie. I like a lot of it, but it's just so flawed. And I think it's like narratively. I have so many issues with it. I think people, you know, the general public,

people on Reddit, were always talking about it like a masterpiece, like even when it came out. Like people would put it on like underrated movies list. And it's just like, this is on the top 250 and everybody saw it. What are you talking about? Dunkirk, I enjoyed also interesting. I love Dunkirk.

And then everything from Tenet forward, I've been not entirely negative, like, as a whole, but still very frustrated with and especially just frustrated with the trajectory of Nolan as a director. Hmm. What do you think changed what went astray since Tenet? There's a point in many large big name directors careers, not all of them, but enough to make this notable, where they get so big big that they stop taking notes from other people and then they just turn into self-parody, right? where they're like making movies that seem like a parody of themselves and like what they think other people think they're supposed to be doing or maybe it's the purest most honest version of themselves

but just I wish that they would rein it in a bit you know I feel this way about Spielberg to a large degree I felt this way about Quentin Tarantino in a few of his recent films Tenet is very much like a parody of Nolan film, right? We're going so far in the time shit. It's like so backwards. It's like literally backwards, bro. Nothing made any sense.

Yeah, I can see that. I feel like with Tenet, yeah, that's the case where he went full Nolan. But Oppenheimer, to me, still feels like an outlier. Never go full knowing. Never go full Nolan. Oppenheimer feels like an outlier because it's like JFK, like Oliver Stone, like this massive thing where it's all conversations nestled within conversations. It's like one three-hour montage. And I think one of the biggest differences with this current period of Nolan is the changes of collaborators from Hans Zimmer to Ludwig Garanson that started with Tenet and also with Jennifer Lamb, his new editor. And I just find those new collaborators like really crucial and why I. I really like this new period of his movies, which does feel different. It doesn't feel like necessarily he's not being told no.

It just kind of feels like, hey, I'm trying something slightly different. And that's kind of the way I feel about The Odyssey, too. It definitely feels different. And another thing to know, I guess, is that he stopped writing scripts with his brother. I think his last one was Interstellar. Did you not like that combo? I think that they were a weird, because Interstellar was originally written for Spielberg. And to me, that made sense because I think, like, Nolan has this, like, this outer shell

that needs to be broken in a certain way. And I feel like this kind of doom and gloom despair of double punch of Oppenheimer and the Odyssey is kind of like a perfect example. And he's a really good writer. I feel like his writing of these recent screenplays has just been really impressive. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. Okay. I don't know. Yeah.

I don't know if I don't know if I feel like I'm really impressed by the screenplays in these. But I guess we'll never know because the fucking screenplay for both of his most recent two films was apparently a lot more comprehensive before he decided to trim both of them down literally only to fit within 70 millimeter IMAX format because that is a three hour cap. So Oppenheimer he trimmed down to like literally the minute would have been three and a half. hours long. He trimmed out 30 minutes of shit, turned entire scenes. I think that's good. Entire scenes into montages. Like it changed. We don't know if it's good because we'd nobody's nobody's seen the fuller version of the film, right? So like I'm not going to pretend like, you know, this is some Hutterowski's Dune fan fiction where I'm, where we're all saying like, oh, it would have been the best. Like, I don't know. But to me, it speaks in a very weird way

looking at someone who's an artist, uh, sacrificing what they, believed, you know, was the tone and the flow and the pacing and how information's delivered, sacrificing that so that the movie can be screened in only 41 theaters in the world that, like, will be able to screen that format. But the way he changes his editing affects every cut of the movie, right? So like, only a small fraction of people, less than 1% who see the movie, like, in theaters are even going to be able to experience the full framing, right? Somebody interviewed him on a podcast in the, I guess it wasn't a podcast. It was just a regular press interview.

They asked him, oh, how do you frame things for your films, especially The Odyssey, because, you know, you're filming it in IMAX 70 millimeter for the entire time. You're releasing, you're distributing it in all of these other formats simultaneously. How do you make sure that things are nice in the frame and do you, what do you pay attention to? And Christopher Nolan just said, oh, I actually, I don't think of films in 2D. I think of them in 3D. Like, how far are you away from something? Or, like, are you over the actor's shoulder?

Which doesn't seem like an answer to the question because you're just, you're saying something that every director does. Because everybody makes movies in 3D because that's where you're filming it. Like, that's real life. That's where, right? He's asking about the framing. The framing is only 2D. I get it. Right. But like he literally answered the question saying, oh, as long as things are like in the frame, which I felt watching this before I had ever even seen this interview that like there was no interesting framing in the movie. Right. And this just kind of reaffirmed my my feelings and why I felt that way.

See, I didn't I didn't feel that but I felt that some of the the editing choices like did impact that kind of thing. Entirely. There would be a shot that I was like, oh, this is cool. I'm absorbing this for what I can, and then it would just veer off. And, yeah, I wanted to bring up the same thing about the IMAX, the crutch almost. Where, like, he's always loved IMAX, right, and loved these IMAX sequences and just committed to it more and more. But I don't really get what the tradeoff, what the payoff is here, because, like, it does feel like it's hurting the filmmaking for me. And this is a rare example where.

I actually feel like this film could be longer. I feel like he could have got away with like a four-hour film here or something, maybe with an intermission in the middle. He had at least another seven minutes, too, because this one was two hour 53. He didn't even exhaust it like Oppenheimer. Yeah, there was something about that, especially in the first act of this movie, the first 30, 40 minutes. I was like, oh my God, this editing, like, I remember you bringing it up during the

Oppenheimer discussion, but it didn't feel, it felt more intentional to that. It felt like there was something broadly like, style. realistic with the way that was kind of put together and it did feel like this big like montage thing and the different timelines the way that was overlap that was really cool and interesting but here it felt like man I can't really get into this setup and it's just a lot of dialogue a lot of like great dialogue either um so I'm not really there's no angle for me to really attach to like a character here and it wasn't until the adventure really got moving after it finally got past this just really clunky beginning and it was able to show off some of the or the or that he's known for. I did start enjoying it. And overall, did have a positive experience with the movie, but this should have been, like, I should have been a mark for this. Like, I love the Odyssey.

I love, like, ancient Greece and myth and that kind of stuff. Like, I've loved it since I was a little kid. So this really should be the Nola movie for me. So I was getting frustrated at some of these creative choices where I just kind of wanted to enjoy his interpretation of it. And that editing, man, like, in the dialogue was rough at first. Yeah. can't like hold on a shot.

I think that dialogue is one of his weaker, weaker things. But I think like structurally, I actually really admire the beginning. I really liked how it started, how we have this kind of like fast breakneck speed into this story. We're kind of thrown in with all these different things.

We're jumping along in the timelines. And I feel like that is really narratively important and essential to kind of get the audience hooked into all of these setups. Because there's lots of these setups that have to get paid off and lots of these threads that get woven. And every person who I've talked to about this movie says, yeah, that did not feel like three hours at all. And I think that is because of that kind of fast editing, especially at the start of the film, that kind of throws you in so that you don't really feel fully settled into the middle section with the actual, you know, traveling

around stuff, you know, right into the middle of the film. And I feel like when you do, that's when I felt it kind of slowed down a bit when you kind of feel this episodic and then and then and then, okay, now we're doing the Cyclops and now we're doing Ceylon Cribdis, you know, because we'd have like a knowledge of the story. It's such a famous story so that we kind of know where the story's going to go. So I really liked all of the, the beginning and the ending more so than anything, oddly enough. The set pieces were great, but to me, like the narrative flow of seeing the the connections between these characters, how Penelope is with her son, the conversation that Odysseus has with Penelope before he leaves. All of these scenes, the way they're interlinked in

that first half hour, I thought it worked, I don't know, I thought it worked well for me. I agree with what you said earlier, Alex, that, like, I think the style of it works better for Oppenheimer. Like, I was still jarred by it. You know, I did bring it up. And it took me a while to settle into it for Oppenheimer. But eventually, if I remember my experience correctly, eventually I did get used to it and kind of be like, okay, what a weird way to do this sort of thing. The Odyssey, like, to me it felt like a bit more not only inconsistent, but like working against the type of feeling that I would want for this type of story.

Like, if you're if you're communicating something, like an example would be the, his whole squad on the island before they have the secret barbecue. They're like starving, right? Because of Nolan's refusal to like let anything hold or linger or let you feel any kind of like breathing room or absorption of like environment or feeling. or time, you know, like, I didn't feel like any of these characters were starving. Like they said they were, right? It was just like they said literally like, oh, we were starved. We didn't want to starve. So we did this.

We would rather drown. Like, okay, I get it. They said the thing. But like, I've seen so many other pieces of media tackling that same concept. Even video games like fucking uncharted three when he's like wandering around in the desert. They're just like so more patient. And I think that that is necessary to communicate something like that. And it wouldn't even have to be that much longer.

Again, he had seven extra minutes. I feel like that particular scene, if you just had one or two more minutes in that scene, like I would have felt like, oh, wow, these characters are, you know, suffering. Like, I would have empathized more with that decision. Not that everybody has to be rational or anything in the movie. But I think that I should be able to feel something more, you know? Like, I think that's a big. a big criticism really yeah i felt that with the flow of time with how which is quite essential

for the story kind of with the charlie's uh thereon character who's supposed to be in this it's part of the non-linear structure of this movie because it has to be in there in some way where it is returning to this time that has been kind of stretched out and yeah you just don't feel it doesn't wash over you in the same way that it might if um it was able to sit in the atmosphere a bit more or make you feel like he's trapped somewhere. There's such like an urgency to the way it's cut that I just, it's good for like emphasizing action and that kind of stuff, but it does hurt the kind of slower character moments or establishing a scene or letting it kind of like wash over you, I guess. Yeah. I feel,

I feel like there are quite a few scenes that establish this, like what you're talking about in terms of this atmosphere and environment of feeling like you're really present and going through what the soldiers are experiencing. I mean, the multiple sequences when we get to see at different moments, the fall of Troy, I thought it worked very well. I thought, you know, the Cyclops sequence and everything with Circe was set up really well and you really feel the atmosphere in the environment and that you feel a special type of, at least I did, a special type of resonance with Circe's character.

that I didn't expect and with with the the Cyclops even though that's kind of a very truncated and I guess bastardized version of what actually happens in the epic that's what I hear yeah um but to me it feels like the biggest downside to this movie in for me and it's something that I went in expecting because it's Christopher Nolan was the very heavy reality of everything and the movie kind of sets that up with the opening card that says in an age of apparent magic that is kind of like setting up this thing of, okay, there is magic out there, but not everyone maybe believes it or understands it, or it's dying out. It's very Lord of the Ringsy in that sense, where it's like an age is changing.

We'll talk about that later, probably. But getting that sense of like, yeah, okay, Christopher Nolan isn't going to be showing us the gods talking to each other and all of that. You know, but I thought that the way that it is handled works really well and builds to a like thesis and conclusion that just hit home emotionally in a way that I have never felt from another Christopher Nolan movie. So even though maybe narratively, some sequences feel like separate or not totally coherent to the rest of the work, I feel like what it builds to is so emotionally satisfying and cathartic. I just, I was so thrilled and I thought the patience and the control

that it has, especially in the final act of the movie, it had such a payoff that I maybe forgave some other elements that I didn't love as much. But I don't know, how did that, how did you guys feel about the final payoff, the final act of the movie? Yeah, it does really come back around to being quite satisfying through its main arc, through what you're saying. Because I, I, I was kind of with you. I was going into this expecting way more of a Nolan movie before like a faithful Odyssey. I just knew like some of these,

some of these things he wouldn't really want to indulge in, even though I would love to see all the like Poseidon speaking and personified and all this kind of stuff. It's just, I don't know. It's not really what he does. Even though the best parts of this movie, I think are when he is like leaning into horror concepts or like the execution of that kind of more wacky stuff.

It was part of what was interesting about him picking this to me. It's almost the whole point, but I do like how it was kind of addressed with this kind of social contract angle with Zeus's law. And yeah, that main arc in particular is the glue that keeps it together, even though I would like a slightly more kind of conniving Odysseus, especially with like the episodic nature of the film. I just, man, I wish I could have sat in that cyclops scene for long ago and had some more dialogue and conversation. but I understand you have to keep it moving, keep it changing, I guess, to, like, hit these beats that it requires. Right. Yeah, I just couldn't, even though I was enjoying large swaths of it,

there was just like this itch in the back of my mind, like, damn, there's just something here that's not really hitting, even though, yeah, that main arc, I think, does work well overall. So the end sequence of the movie was somewhat enjoyable to me, not my favorite scene or anything, but I don't know. It felt like the only part of the movie where I had any idea like how far through the film I was. Whereas like before that point, I was just like, this could be 30 minutes through or two hours and 30 minutes through and I had no idea. Like I was just kind of like similar, not quite as extreme, but like similar thoughts is what I was

experiencing in fucking the iron lung of just like, it's kind of just, everything kind of just blends. into itself, you know, like all these, except in the opposite way, whereas Iron Lung is just one scene. The Odyssey is just like a bunch of mini scenes, right? Yeah, I, there's certain things about the presentation, like, not just, uh, I'm trying to think of how I'm going to organize my thoughts here. In that ending scene, the sound design was so extra. And don't get me wrong.

I know that if I'm watching like a Nolan film or like a big. budget kind of like spectacle movie that there's going to be some like extra sound design a punch isn't going to sound like a real punch it's going to be emphasized and you want to like blah blah blah for the crazy speakers in the theater etc etc but there was one point where it was just like i started laughing because the the sound design was like all of these um like tim and eric level exaggerated uh knife slashing sound effects like shing shing shing but it was our main character hitting like the air

is doing a defensive pose and I just like I fucking lost it it was just like oh my God it was so ridiculous there was a part near the beginning

where they were implying like violence on the doggo or whatever and there's right the the moment where he like does like

the first kick or whatever um you hear this like really fucking uh borderline disturbing dog yelp like or whatever

but they didn't they didn't cheat the shot properly like you see the dog lying down chill bored not opening its mouth simultaneously as they're playing the sound effect and so it's just like this weird

weird comedic experience where it lur like I just like I don't know how I'm supposed to not expect more from like a production like this where like what I'm watching is so ridiculous

I don't know maybe I'm like I'm particularly sensitive to sound related to shit but like I don't know a lot of the movie just felt like so stupid for me when it comes to Nolan specifically in the way he likes to shoot action that Fistacuff stuff has always been a weak point like it's when there's a vehicle involved or like a big something of scale, you know, like the ship scenes in interstellar or the, like, the plane

antenna or the car chase internet. As long as there's something like mechanical or like enormous, like a cyclops in there, it seems to kind of come together. But I agree. I liked it more on a character level and the kind of the drawn out payoff of how that came together than the actual execution of the Fistikov's action in the last. No, the fight was not great. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty slow. Yeah, that was not what was good about it. But the emotion. on that build up, built up to that moment, I thought worked so well in the suspense from the entire third act that is like the essential part of the Odyssey, the heart of it. And I thought that, you know, everything with the family, with the dog. I mean, it felt, what it felt like to me was

Christopher Nolan going full movie mode. And by which I mean, just full Hollywood, just like give everyone the fucking goods. And this movie felt very Spielbergian in that sense. And I guess I'm using Spielberg just as a word for like classic Hollywood filmmaking and delivering the emotional payoff and just give people like give people Robert Pattinson being a bastard little swymie freak. You know, it's so satisfying. And watch the payoff. Watch what happens.

You know, it's so cathartic. There's a reason why the story is, has endured for centuries. It's because there's something so like fundamental. mentally essential and satisfying about what it's saying. And Nolan does modernize that, like completely. Like the movie is entirely Nolan. And it does feel like a direct sequel to Oppenheimer. It's exploring the same type of fears and neuroses and talking about our modern era very, very much more so than anything it has to say about, you know, the ancient world, which is fine. You know, that's what the movie is. That's why I think it resonates. And when it reaches,

you know, the monologues, which typically in Nolan movies, I saw someone say, I don't know where, someone said something like, the difference between Nolan monologues in earlier movies is that his monologues are used to explain plot, whereas now he uses monologues to explain the themes. And, you know, if you think that works or it doesn't work, that's up to you. But I thought that once we get to Odysseus talking and to Penelope and all of that in the end of the film, I thought it just, it slammed home really well everything the movie was trying to get at. And it might be a simple message, but I thought it was very effective. Yeah.

Yeah, there were kind of two major things that stood out to me about the modernizing angle. One being that I love being the kind of core, kind of shifting the story a little bit to be more about like grief and guilt and how that manifests through the idea of like gods and the social contract. That's really clever, I feel. Yeah. The other kind of hand with modernizing is kind of, how do I talk about this? There's a lot of hubbub about like casting choices. And I think there actually are some distracting casting choices in the film, but not the ones anyone was talking about in the lead up to this. Like to me, it was more distracting to have like, I already mentioned her, like, Chollies Theron.

Yeah, very. Looking like a model on the beach. That was kind of like distracting. Very recognizable too. Tom Holland, I thought, as well. was like, it was a bunch of like actors who I just see the actor first and I'm not seeing a character. Like I thought John Ligazamo kind of melted into his character and was like, he was great.

Yeah. I thought he did a great job. And I also thought it was in the same way it was weird when Harry Stiles showed up in Dunkirk when like Travis Scott like opens the movie. That was like a stunt casting thing. It was like, okay, I don't know why I'm thinking about like Astro World in a fucking Odyssey movie, but okay, whatever. Egg Gros and two shots or whatever.

but yeah, I don't need to be thinking about Agri Drift. I wonder if Nolan's at a point where like you're saying, Alex, he can just kind of hire anyone who immediately you feel like fits the idea for the part because everyone will say yes, you know what I mean? So like, okay, who's the person who could play the son? Tom Holland, you know, he's like the young, hot guy, you know? So it's kind of like anyone he could possibly want. So maybe some of the casting.

I thought Tom Holland was good. I thought other actors could have done a good job, you know, but he was good. I thought Anne Hathaway was fantastic. And I think Matt Damon was the best choice for this character, especially because of what Nolan's trying to do and make him more of like a sympathetic. Like no matter what he does, no matter how many times he fucks up, which he does not fuck up nearly as much in this movie as he does in the epic. But he's way more sympathetic.

But he's a character, Matt Damon is someone you just have to root for, you know? He's just like a Hollywood star that you want to. see him succeed. Bring him home. Yeah. And just let him go, you know, sicko mode at the end. Insano style. Insano style.

For sure. Yeah, I like to win the film. Yeah. There were just a few kind of stand out like, I don't know, like me, everyone has to be like a big actor. Yeah. For some reason. Sure.

Very few actors felt like they were playing a character distinct enough from what they've done in every other movie. Like, you know, the lead up to this movie, all the anti-woke people talking about fucking Lipita Njango, like, oh, I won't be able to believe that she's actually there because she's black. Like, she fit more in the movie than John Burnthal. Like, right? Yeah, he was another one that kind of stood out a little bit.

So many of these actors just felt like weird cameo appearances, right? The same problem existed in Oppenheimer in different ways, but I would say in Oppenheimer. it felt more like they were playing distinct enough characters. This film, it's actually getting to the point where it's very frustrating for me with this being, you know, something that Nolan's done for the, is most recent two films now. Because people are seeing these movies because it's a Nolan movie. People are seeing these movies because they're gigantic spectacle. You're supposed to watch it.

Nolan movies. He could put anyone in any of the roles and it would do just as well. He could give no name actors a chance, right? He could make new careers out of people and there's so many talented people that exist in the world, right, that could be playing these characters. He doesn't need the name recognition to sell the movie. And so for him to, you know, if the casting decision has nothing to do with marketability and he's just thinking like, oh yeah, Tom Holland would be good because I've seen Tom Holland in other movies. Like, it seems just kind of really short-sighted and lazy, right? Like, it seems like he just, like, had a thought and didn't think too hard about it. Tom Holland was just doing what Tom Holland always does just in a slightly deeper register in his voice, right?

Like, it seems insane to me. And it works against the film for the exact reasons that Alex mentioned. Yeah, because it's frustrating, I guess, when you have the casting of like Samantha Morton as Sersa, who does an incredible job. She was great. It was like perfect in that role. Yeah, kind of like juxtapose against Theron or Bernthor. Yeah. Which, yeah, is more distracting, especially when they don't feel that fleshed out. And I guess it didn't really bother me in Oppenheimer because that was like framed around like a lawsuit and you're remembering a lot of like these random scientists and people.

So it was almost helpful to remember. Whereas this is kind of like a simple adventure kind of story where just, yeah, it was almost more distracting or left me thinking or wanting more from certain kind of performances or characters. It's almost more distracting that they got like me a got got for like two shots or whatever. But yeah, it's, I feel like for everything, every criticism I have, there's also something I love. I'm very like mixed on this movie because I thought earlier page was awesome as Sinon. Yeah. It has a really good like monologue when they get to the under. world and so many good choices in there kind of like real back very no lenny choices that were

like that's that's cool like as an interpretation for how you would display something like this like the on location shooting the lighting a bunch of creative choices i really enjoyed and when it would use the music the way it does there's like a level of violence that a lot of his films don't really have that was selling some of the stakes of it and was making it kind of like scary in these sequences like I really want to see him lean more into that kind of detached, because I don't feel like that much emotion when I watch his movies outside of awe. So I feel like horror actually really works for him, like with that kind of like detached kind of style that he has.

Sure. So yeah, that was like a nice surprise for me, that just how effective the handful of kind of horror sequences were. But yeah, like just like a six-episode TV show or something, there might be two episodes that I adored. like one that was kind of weak in the middle and you know what I'm saying it was just uneven for me yeah and I think that's kind of like a staple of the genre too of doing a big epic like this like you think of some of the best your favorite epics uh that have ever been made I mean rarely are they kind of coherent all the way through

um I mean I'm trying to think of like like classic like Ben Hur or something like that um you know this movie I think is in communication with like Cessal B. DeMille. And I think part of two is why he's getting the biggest stars and all this in talking about IMAX so much is I think Nolan is very aware of his brand and his, like he's him and Emma Thomas, his wife who's produced all of his films that are, they are, they must understand the level of control and power they have here where they can do whatever they want. They can go as big as possible. And I think there was that expectation. after Oppenheimer's like how can you go any bigger than that? Well, you do the biggest, you know, the biggest story of all time. So, I mean, I'm just curious to see what he does with this

leverage that he has because like Adam, I do feel like it'd be interesting if he cast people who are unknowns, you know, if he made careers for people, if he did something really offbeat. Like if he did a grimy, weird little horror film after this, that'd be fascinating. I don't think he would ever do that because he is a businessman truly at us on a primal level. And I think maybe some of that, like, what I'm fascinated with is more than anything with this movie is like the theme of like guilt and wanting to reckon with the sins of the past. And not just of like an individual, but of like a world of a culture and of civilization. Like he is really interested in just where everything went astray. And I do think that would go hand in hand with a horror film.

But this movie is a horror film deep down, I think. And what I left with, can we talk spoilers? Yes. We're far enough in. The final act of the movie, you know, the reveal I thought worked very well emotionally. I was like on the verge of tears multiple points throughout this film, especially when he just, I mean, when his son recognizes him, when he sees the dog, I mean, the dog thing, it's so Hollywood and it's so, I wouldn't say it's cheap, but it's so effective and it's so moving to get to these moments. And like the weird fascinations that Nolan has throughout his movies of like missing time with your children, you know, these are really fundamental like things that really tug at like just. being human. So I thought that worked well. And then the final moments of when they're sailing off and kind of monologing about hopefully one day people don't, you know, forget what we did

and make the same mistakes, that sort of thing. And, you know, the Bronze Age collapse and all that stuff is really interesting. And I love, I mean, the way it is incorporated into the movie is kind of silly because they're like our age of bronze is endings. Yeah. Yeah, that was funny. It's like, we get it, we get it. You know, sometimes, sometimes you got to, you got to project a little bit to make sure everyone gets the message. But no, I thought it worked overall. I mean, thematically, how do you guys feel about like what this movie's trying to do and does it work or not? I mean, like, there's, there's things that I found interesting, like of note, but didn't exactly experience or resonate with like in a personal way.

So like the the recontextualizing of the freaking Trojan horse to be like, oh, this was this was the beginning of the end and not like some epic cool thing that we did. Yeah. Like I found that interesting, but I was just, it was impossible for me to be like attached to this film in any kind of like narrative or emotional sense just because I was having so many issues with how it was presented in ways where it was actively working against what I was experiencing like I'm I've got a few other things that I'll ramble about but uh Alex what did you think about themes no I thought returning to the the Trojan War was was a really good choice especially with the late Zendaya reveal there with her version of Athena and the way they did that so a cool way of nailing home the kind of idea of Zeus's lore and them being this thing, they kind of

set off to destroy and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, it's more just on a character level for me where it wasn't really emotionally connecting. Like I was connecting with the or the ore of things, the kind of scale of things, but kind of echoing what Adam was saying about, like it just felt like it wasn't letting me kind of sit in it and bathe in the awe when they put all of this effort into doing so much of it practically and putting it together this way with this dedication. I just felt like it was keeping me at arm's length in a way that was unfortunate. It was frustrating, I think, is the word. Hmm.

Okay. I understand that. I mean, I'm curious about, like, some of the hangups that you guys had with the presentation. I know, Adam, you're talking about the sound or everything. I mean, you mentioned the clip on the press junket of Nolan talking. about using iMacs and i did see that too i do feel like that was kind of like one of many moments of no one talking about using iMacs that feels slightly out of context or maybe not articulated super well on a long press junket where you have to talk about these things over and over i think that

like he the movie is framed to fit the standard view of you know i saw it in 70 mill uh which was awesome but not in imax and i thought the presentation worked for, I don't know if you guys saw it in IMAX, but, you know, without having the extra information on top and bottom, it is not like, like, it's not framed for that. So I do feel like seeing at IMAX might actually be a worse experience because you're getting tons of, like, extra space on top of people's heads and everything like that. I get that it's like an immersive type of thing. And I think there are downsides to relying on the IMAX camera. And, but I do think that in a way, seems like Nolan likes having a challenge in terms of how to film things. And he still seems to

insist on trying to film things like an indie filmmaker. There's this, I saw this thing with Matt Damon talking about how the day before they were shooting, like the, it being inside the Trojan horse sequence, he's talking to Nolan. He's like, hey, how are we going to film that tomorrow? And Nolan's like, I don't know. He's like, are we just going to like, I'll jump in there? He's like, yeah, I guess. You figured it. I think that, yeah. And I think that that's one of the great things about Nolan and also maybe something that people bump up against or maybe don't love that there is a

kind of indie look and feel even when using iMac's cameras and I think there are certain sequences not like the big planned out sequences that you need special effects for but for instance like the final fight sequence that could have been maybe planned out a little more or not

feel so much like an indie film and another downside to using iMacs is that it's incredibly shallow depth of field so a lot of the is like there's some focus pullers trying to, you know, they're fighting for their life out there with these IMAX cameras. You can really feel them like, okay, let's come on, try to get this in focus when the actors aren't necessarily on the same marks every scene because Nolan doesn't really do that, you know, like.

So there are great aspects, I think, to the way he shoots these movies in this improvisitory feel at the detriment of maybe if you want a little more plan. out to the sequences or the look of it. I mean, I don't know, Adam, you can go off. Go off, King. Okay. So I mentioned the weird editing, you know, being to the film's detriment because of how it refuses to hold on much for long and, you know, the tone, the feel, the pacing, etc.

There are other editing issues that I have. And there's like three different moments in the film where, Because of, I guess, the rushed nature of how they were editing this film, there was like miscommunication. And especially after watching Nolan in these interviews where he's, you know, talking about the framing like, oh, you know, like as long as the things that are needed to communicate are in the frame, right? Like, he's talking about it in like a very literal way of essentially stating like, oh, yeah,

as long as we're communicating the information. Unfortunately, the editing of the film winds up removing important context. So one example, probably the most egregious, is, you know, as soon as at the end of the Samantha Morton scene, pigs are outside about to like burst down the door or whatever. Matt Damon has, you know, is about to eat from the bowl or whatever. And then it's like, why do you have the rings of my soldiers or whatever? the editing in this in this one moment where it shows like four or five different shots in quick succession less than a half less than a second uh for each shot just like bam bam bam bam bam bam one of those shots you can clearly tell like okay the pig's bursting through the door like because that's filling up

the entire frame right but a very important shot to be able to understand what happened in it is not only way too quick but framed in a way where the action taking place is not what you would naturally be paying attention to. So when this scene continued in the theater and, you know, all it's showing is just close shot of Matt Damon and close shot of Samantha Morton. And the way that they're speaking to each other implies that he has some sort of leverage over her. You know, she's got the knife to his neck and I'm like, wait, why doesn't she cut him?

And through conversation, I'm learning eventually. Like, oh, wait, he's got, like, he's doing something with the bird and, he's doing something with is the bird and his sister? Like, what? And I have to, like, work backwards to rationalize what the film technically showed me, but due to its editing, communicated so poorly that I was unable to recognize it. And I downloaded a camera just to, like, check myself and just make sure I'm not fucking crazy. And this is a big fucking problem, right? Like, I was talking about it on my stream. And before I even specified which scene I was talking about that had this big communication issue, like other people were guessing it in the chat.

So I'm not the only person that had this experience. Yeah, that was clunky. Yeah. And being able to, like, pause it in the camera. Like, I can see, like, oh, okay, here's what fucking went wrong here. Like, here's why I was confused, right? Because the bird's, like, flapping its wings. Again, it's, like, less than one second.

And there's so much other commotion that you're fixated on. And you can't even, like, tell that it's someone's hand grabbing it. And then they don't show it for the rest of the shot. And it's just like implied. And most of the scene of them talking with each other, you don't even see that his arm is extended outside of the frame. It's like closer than that, right? So perhaps in IMAX with the taller frame, it would have been easier to see what he had done. Or perhaps maybe with better sound design at that moment, instead of just mostly flapping wing sounds and one like, you know, half-ass like, ah!

Or whatever, right? If the sound design was more extreme, right? If it was like an actual sound of like an animal experiencing like pain or suffering or torment or whatever, like that would probably be something a little more like wailing like, like, right? Like the sound design alone would communicate that if the sound design were better in that scene. There are many ways to communicate information and it failed on so many levels. Framing, editing, and sound design simultaneously and just left me confused where I was having to make excuses for the film, right? And that's one of like three major examples that I have in my mind. The other being during the Cyclops scene when they're like, okay, we wait until morning.

And then when it moves the boulder, we all go out, right? The way that they filmed this, and again, this is a combination of failures, including framing and editing, I was confused why Matt Damon was like running back because the way it's shot it almost implies like oh they made it out right then I have to work backwards and recognize like okay there's probably other people that he's going back to see it would have been nice to just like have a quick shot

in there of the other people before he runs back again in the camera if it's like maybe for like one fraction of a second you can like kind of see like over the boulder there might be like I couldn't even tell if that was implied to be someone back there that he was supposed to go back and get so again I was just like what what did I just watch and then I have to make excuses for the film post hoc rationalize and justify like okay this must be what it tried to communicate why didn't it fucking communicate it to me right that's the job of you as a filmmaker unless you're doing something like avant-garde fucking

artsy foreign cinema, whatever, right? Unless there's a specific reason why I shouldn't know information as it's shown and that it would be more impactful to learn it later. Sure, that's a reveal, but that's not what it was doing. That's not what it was doing at all. It was just terrible at communicating. And it's like, what is filmmaking? What is the art of filmmaking?

What are the choices you make as a filmmaker, as an artist, right? Like, I feel like we've lost the fucking plot. and I don't know whether or not it makes sense to blame that solely on the iMacs aspect ratio because again he had seven more minutes to work with he could have used them I think it's just a matter of like not understanding where his priorities are

and maybe also not having enough people to give him honest feedback about like the feel of something like he has a particular way he wants to show it and if it feels right to then great but like if you're not him you don't know what he is trying to communicate right that that's if you want other people to be able to experience the film and get the same information and like that's a problem yeah this is the first time for me

with one of his movies where it's I've had consistent sound issues with him but this is the first time the the editing is actually kind of hurting the film more for me so he already mentioned Oppenheimer and that kind of big swing paying off but it's also like the dialogue and the audio mixing has been like an issue in his movies for a long time now wish i could have seen this with subtitles there was a lot of like mumbling and it was kind of difficult to understand it points interesting not just because of the mixing but i was yeah i don't know how much of that is a me thing i usually watch my films of subtitles if i can sure my screening didn't happen to have it this was also a first for me where multiple scenes in the movie have people actually

covering their ears. Which is, is that like, do you think that's intended? Because, I don't know. That might be the theater. It just felt like, yeah, maybe. I did see this. It wasn't a 70mm IMAX, but I did see it in an IMAX theater. It wasn't in the correct, like, correct quote, unquote aspect ratio.

That wasn't really my issue with it. None of us saw the real version. I think any of us. Well, there are only, there are three IMAX theaters in the entirety of the UK. Yeah. can show two of them in London, one in Manchester. And they'll be sold out for months and months and months. So, yeah, I'm still, I am kind of hung up on that as a,

I don't know why they can just show the correct aspect ratio in a, in a theater, even if it's not like. No, there's no reason why they can't. It's a fucking scam, right? Like, I don't know if he's getting paid by IMAX or something. It's like a shitty scam, though. You can just put black bars on the sides instead of the top, right? The characters would be smaller.

But. That's why I don't get, because it's like, yeah, You've made people really interested in seeing this specific cut, but you don't really have the access for it. I feel like they're putting money on the side. Not even on home video. I don't think it's a scam. I think it would be interesting to be able to see the full frame version and a home edition. But I think, like, from what I understand, the reason why, you know, they wouldn't just put that with that aspect ratio into a normal theater is because it's a

about the immersion of the screen. So like the top and bottom isn't really like what's being framed in the shot. That's just kind of like extra for immersion. Like the actual framing of the shot is like what we see in a regular theater. Yeah. That's just for specifically designed for the theatrical experience to feel more immersive. Kind of like, I mean, it would be kind of like 40X or whatever. And they're not 40X, but like a screen X where it's like the walls are moving, you know.

But it's like IMAX, you have that extra thing. And I think people, because of the way, especially they're marketing this film, and maybe it is kind of like a marketing gimmick where it's like, hey, see the movie as it's really intended. But it's really like, this is a theatrical version where you're going to feel more immersed. It's not necessarily that the extra information on the screen is essential to the viewing experience, but it is for the immersion. It would be interesting to see it in that aspect ratio because it looks more interesting to me. it looks more visually distinct. Yeah, same. I really want to see it.

Yeah, I would like to see something that looks a bit more different. But like, yeah, I agree with you. It's like screen X, but vertical. Could you imagine, like, anuteur, biggest name director that's working in the business can make whatever movie he wants and everybody's going to go see it?

Could you imagine one of them saying, like, oh, yeah, due to the screen X limitations, I've completely changed how I've edited, paste, framed, like the entire run-time of my movie just to fit screen X and also there's only 41 theaters that you can do it in. Like that's what it feels like. The reason why I call it a scam is like it just seems like a big fucking gimmick. And I'm annoyed that like everyone's cut of the film has it is worsened theoretically, ostensibly, right? It's changed from his original vision to fit a hyper-specific

format that it just seems like he has autism over or something. I think putting value in the theatrical experience, even if it's IMAX, I think putting that value in the emphasis of this should be seen in a theater is important. And I think that's a really good thing to get butts in seats. I think that's something that should be celebrating. I like the fact that Nolan does emphasize and put emphasis on that. You don't have to see it necessarily in the IMAX, but to see it in a theater, you understand you're getting a special experience. Yeah. No, I just wish that everyone's theatrical cut of the film wasn't different because of... something that only less than 1% of people are going to experience.

Sure, I understand. It seems crazy. Yeah, it is weird. It is a weird kind of, the gimmick angle, I find strange, because like, when in the marketing cycle for 28 years later, it was all that, we showed this on phones. And this is, like, giving us this weird, like, freedom of stuff. It was like, yeah, sure, there's a big, like, marketing angle. But you could kind of see it in the film, to a degree, you know?

Whereas I don't feel like this film is redefining what. what an immersive epic looks like, you know? I keep seeing a lot of comparisons to, like, the Northman, you know, another, like, myth. There's, like, fancy elements and just a completely kind of different style of approach to, like, an old story like that, where this, this does feel more like a 2020s kind of Nolan take on the Odyssey, whereas I feel like the Northman feels more like has been plucked out of time

and feels more like a myth. Sure. It feels like a contemporary Nolan movie, which is joyful. I like a lot about it, but there is something. I just don't get the IMAX commitment things. I feel like there is a better movie in there with more or less, weirdly. So this is a new one for me. If he sacrificed the IMAX to instead improve the editing and pacing,

I feel like that would be the choice that I would make as an artist, but I guess we're not all the same, right? I would love to see that, yeah. Because I would watch like a five hour, even cut it in half or something. I feel like he could get away with some audacious shit like that. Like I'm doing The Odyssey and I'm doing a five-hour version of this or something. I think the constraints make it more interesting.

I think the fact that it is under three hours and the fact that he was able to wrangle this down makes it a way more interesting. I don't know. I like the limitations that he puts on himself, like having it under three hours, the IMAX format. I think that makes him kind of a more interesting artist, the fact that he, even though he has this blank check to do whatever he wants. He could put out a four-hour movie if he wanted to, but he's choosing not to. I think that's good for art in general. I don't know. I felt that way for Oppenheimer, but yeah, just didn't really line up for this one for me. It's a fascinatingly weird project. It's a fascinating project, and I guess like the reason why I feel more connection to this,

probably that even Oppenheimer and lots of his recent movies is because of the tightness of the thematic depth, like how how exacting it is in the same way that Oppenheimer does kind of hone in on one thing and just hammer at home, not in the most subtle way, but in like a cathartic emotional way that this movie just feels like, yeah, we are honing in, we are telling this story and it's going to hit. And when it hits, it fucking hits. Like, the editing choices that Adam you're talking about, honestly, the only thing that really stuck out to me as, like, distracting was with the bird because I thought, as I was watching it,

going, oh, wait a second. Oh, he's holding the bird. Yeah. I was like, we needed another shot of him. Like, that's probably something that was like, hey, we didn't get this coverage when we shot this. We should have gotten that. And now we have to make up for in the edit.

I don't think that's a mistake of the editing. I feel like that's a mistake of, hey, we just didn't get this shot. It could also be something that was presented in that way because the more comprehensible it was, the more that they would be worried about, like, upsetting viewers probably. That's also an option. Potentially. Like, because then you know, it's like you're showing it.

Like, it might disturb people. Well, and we can't. Maybe also the limits of, hey, I like filming everything practical. but we can't practically have Matt Damon grab this bird and potentially harm it, you know. That's another element. Use a puppet. You could use a puppet, yeah, exactly.

I mean, what's weird about it, again, like, I saw the camera. They do have a shot of, like, his arm in the bird cage and the bird flap, like, they do show it, but it's just for so brief, and there's no way to be able to, like, process the shot because, you know, the bird flapping its wings is where your attention is drawn, even if you were to absorb the shot. And it's impossible to tell that there was an arm.

Like the lighting just doesn't make it easy to understand what was going on. I feel like an acceptable way to do it would be, even if not on the action, but maybe directly after, if like there was a wider shot, like maybe from the ceiling, kind of looking downwards type of angle,

showing Matt Damon and Samantha Morton and Matt Damon's arm clearly in the birdcage sort of thing, right? Like that would be very clear communication and it could be a cool shot. It could be a cool shot too. Yeah, some very bizarre and confusing choices. I just, I mean, I understand what you mean in terms of some of those editing choices,

but I feel like to me it just, I'm in awe of like the mastery of the format this movie has like in terms of building up this narrative momentum, keeping the audiences entranced, delivering this exposition and narrative information in order to deliver a payoff at the end. I feel like narratively, structurally, it works so well. And some of these sequences are just brilliant and breathtaking the sequence with the underworld, you know, rising up. And we see sign on again and all of this. I just found it so physically engaging and the senses of everything, the ocean, how it crashes against the ship. I mean, we see dolphins.

I mean, there's so much care in the physical reality of this world that I just, I found it so amazing how much it was able to pack in and deliver this story. Like, I don't know. Like, sure, there are smaller things that took me out occasionally. but really it just, I got lost in the story. I got lost in the story and I just cared about these characters and what was going to happen to them. So yeah, I don't know.

I just thought it was kind of like a knockout. Like I really was overwhelmed with what the movie did. I feel like I would have had an easier time getting into the characters if they felt like characters and not just the actors performing them, like 90% of them. And I agree that what they were. what they made for the film, right? The costumes and like the set design and so much of the practical nature

of what they decided to capture is all great. And I remember what the feeling of each location is. I remember what the lighting and the color grading is. I remember what the sets and props look like, but I can't for the fucking life of me, remember a single shot in terms of how it was framed, right? It's losing such an important part of artistry and personality for me. What do you mean in how it was framed?

Like the, just the composition of the shot? Like, what do you, like where? Yeah, there was, it never felt like artful or intentional. Like, really? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, there's, again, he captures, like, distance and he captures objects within the frame, but nothing about, like, how much. of something is taking up the frame or in like which position or or there there was nothing

of note right it was filmed in a very matter of fact like we did the job way what about all the all the scenes in the dining room and with penelope behind the screen and how those shots are composed with matt damon and their their conversations and all of that you found none of that particularly well framed? No. I mean, it felt like matter of fact, we did it. This is a professional production, but like we're not doing anything special, right? And you can't if you're shooting for, well, I mean, it would be very difficult.

I don't think it's impossible. But him shooting for all these different aspect ratios simultaneously is what I believe caused this. Because I've never felt this way in a Nolan film to this degree. Again, like I said, even in Tenant, like there were like interesting. memorable, like, shots and sequences for, for cinematography for me. But this film really felt like the most out of all of Nolan's films, like, matter of fact, devoid of personality for shot composition.

And it makes sense. And I, you know, I felt that way immediately watching it and then afterwards discovered all of these reasons why it could be the case that kind of just reaffirm my experience. See, yeah, I kind of feel in the middle of that where I kind of feel like the shots are actually there, but you can't soak in them because they just cut so quick. Yeah, maybe that would have helped me. That was what the issue felt more like. That's what I felt like to me when it would, when there'd be like an establishing shot that's like,

oh, wow, that's like so cool that they've like built this, the imagery of the horse like buried in the sand. But it's like, man, just let me absorb this. That was what was frustrating about me because then it just put a distance between the film and me. where I was kind of appreciating it more than I was actually engaged in a specific character or something like this. Like I like a lot of the performances in there. I like a lot of individual scenes. I always feel like I'm going through this like filtering process of like love this and this. But man, I don't really get this choice.

I don't get this audio thing going on. I couldn't understand this. Like that was a weird cut. I just felt like, yeah, uneven is the word. So I just. And it's such a. an interesting contrast with Oppenheimer to me where on an emotional level that did work, I felt like it was doing something big and capturing the scale and putting eyes onto this,

what could be, extremely dry and dull film, but he made like a billion dollar movie out of that subject matter. There was just something cool about that. And yeah, just the angle here didn't fully work for me. But I'm kind of keen to watch it again, not in the same way I would revisit an Oppenheimer, but I need to wait till I can see it in the proper aspect ratio as well as with subtitles. That's the big one for me. Yeah, it's so weird. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, not a Nolan diehard, you know, I wouldn't put any of his movies among my favorites of all time, but to me, this just, I don't know, something about it really connected with me, resonated with me. This is one of my favorite Nolan movies, I think. Sure. But yeah, I do think

He's just an interesting, I'm really interested in like this phase of his career, I guess, and especially with the double whammy of Oppenheimer and The Odyssey. Yeah. I just, I think also it has to do with his collaborations, you know. I love the Ludwig Grantson's score. I think Jennifer Lame is a great editor. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess I'm surprised that you guys didn't enjoy it more, but I think I do understand.

I really wanted to. I just feel like I'm not on the same level as everyone else who seems to be. Right. Drolling over this? Ratings? Five. Five? Five?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot more than that. This would be like a three and a half style, like a seven for me. There's so much I love about it. There's so many cool choices, but it's also some of the more wacky stuff that kind of just pushing me away. I like the spins on it. I didn't need it to necessarily be this

utterly faithful adaptation, even though I'd still like to see parts of that. Yeah, there's something about the pacing here. There's something about this weird IMAX stuff that just feels like the title's a bit too far for like what the payoff for it seems to be. I guess I'm in the minority there. Everyone is obsessed with this film.

So yeah, that'd be my school. All right, yeah. Well, I'm going with nine out of ten, I think, right now. Maybe it's a bit overzealous, but I got to go with my heart. Yeah, I think it's good. Sure. I enjoyed our conversation about this. Same.

I liked hearing your guys' takes. It's interesting how this movie's kind of washing over and how it's becoming such a phenomenon at the... I guess that's not too surprising. That's something everyone should have expected. this would make a lot of money. I mean, it's a Christopher. It's like not a surprise. I thought it was supposed to go woke and go broke.

That's what I thought too. Yeah, that made no difference. It didn't make a fucking lick a difference. You know, get the shits about that in real life. Maybe it's just because the Odyssey is such a great source material that, like, if it didn't go woke, like this would have made like 10 times as much. I guess we'll find out when Elon Musk releases his AI version of the Odyssey with only white people in it. Because if that one does 10 times,

times better than we know that the Nolan one would have also. I hope that gets a theatrical release. That'd be fun. The AI Odyssey. Yeah, Elon Musk directed, generated. And this is weird, yeah, in that same group, they're calling for, they want, like, Mel Gibson to do it with, like, accurate, like Apocalypse or whatever. They've got different, accurate accents and voices or whatever, but whatever.

Apparently Ben Shapiro actually liked it. I know that was so funny He's like guys it's actually good He loved Barbie too He loved, wait no he didn't love Barbie He loved wicked That's funny He secretly loved Barbie

He likes his musical theater Yeah I'm just kind of happy that like people care about the Odyssey And it's like it will make more people connect with the source material As well So I do appreciate that People are arguing about translations

I mean come on When does that happen? Yeah that's cool I love that people actually give you shits about that. Did you hear about the... I find it very funny. We're going to say Emily Wilson. Yeah.

Coming out against them with me. And that's so funny. It's like, woke Emily Wilson. She's just like, yeah, this move is trash. Me, fuck Christopher Null. Oh, man. All right. You introduced the next thing.

My mouth is full. Somebody. Me or Alex. Who's you? Me. Alex, why don't you do it? So I guess we're going to talk about the invite now, right? Olivia Wilde coming out of,

she was precarious with the director's jail after, oh my God, I'm blacking of what it's called, the Harry Styles, Don't worry, Darling. Don't worry, darling,

yeah. Oh, yeah, I don't know if you guys saw that one. No. Oh, yeah. It was certainly something.

Yeah, yeah, quite a. Harry Styles as Jordan Peterson, VR, is it VR or something? Fuck, yeah,

I forgot about that. Oh, sorry, I don't mean to spoil it, everyone. Spoiling, don't worry darling. I don't care. Yeah, that was not a great film, but people seem to be enjoying this one, the invite.

The kind of Bottle movie directed by a Liverpool World and starring with her Seth Rogen, Van derby Cruz, and Edward Norton. Pretty simple stuff, kind of reminded me of, like, carnage. I don't know if you saw that. Oh, is that the way of Carnage? Is that the Polansky movie? I was going to say, there's a couple with the same. Oh, you were talking about that one.

Yeah, I saw that. I was talking about the Polansky one, yeah. That's, wow. There's a few, like, kind of awkward arguments in apartments movies now. There is that one that Stephen Young was in. Yeah, some Woody Allen ones. I like it as a framing. Yeah, no, it's not a bad.

It becomes, like, a performance-led, like, dialogue thing. Exactly. You have to get, like, creative with the way you move it, the way you shoot it. I always enjoy, like, a bottom movie, as long as they can maintain it. Yeah. The humans was the other. one. I like that one. I had a good enough time with this. I enjoyed the comedy more than the drama angle, I think, maybe a little bit longer in the truth for what it is. Not, not like, reinventing the

wheel. It was just kind of solid. Wasn't that much to it. I think it speaks to a lot of people who've been in kind of longer relationships and the kind of trials and tribulations of that and, you know, just the classic framing of two kind of couples contrasting as each other. Yeah, but not really blur in my mind. It hasn't really stuck with me in particular. I just kind of enjoyed my experience, but didn't feel that anything much deeper than some kind of funny performances or funny lines or funny moments. Yeah. What about you guys?

Well, here's a question first. Would you have seen it if I didn't say like, oh, there's this thing in the theater that's getting good reviews? I was planning to watch it. I just wasn't rushing out to see it at the theater. Sam. Yeah, it took a while to get to our theater near us and then me and Nadia reviewed it. but probably also helped that you wanted to talk about on the podcast because,

but I was hearing raving, rave reviews about it. I mean, people were really talking about it like it was this, uh, fantastic, fantastic movie, which it is,

I'm kind of, I think I'm totally aligned with you, Alex, like, um, I think it was a good movie, great time, but not super deep or anything that'll really stick with me,

you know? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, like, it was, it was well made in many aspects.

Mm-hmm. I'm kind of like, maybe I'll wait until spoiler for me to say my grapes, but like... Sure. Yeah, elements of like what it was trying to tackle. To me, personally, I felt like even with the marketing trying to do the same thing that like the drama was trying to do where it's like, ooh, we're being vague. Like, it didn't really work that well because I could tell immediately from the trailer like,

oh, it's probably going to be about this. And I was right. It was like, okay. And then it just took them a while to like get to that in the movie. And it's not like everything was like boring, blueballing up until that point. You know, it was interesting enough and entertaining enough and well-framed enough, you know, well-shot enough. But like- Did you find it surprisingly tame? I kind of thought it was a little too restrained.

Yeah, no, for. I'd agree with that. Yeah. Should we just talk spoilers? All the performances were really good. Yeah. Yeah. All performances were good.

It doesn't really ruin it even to talk about spoilers. It's not really one of those movies. Maybe like elements that won't be a surprise, but it's more like the fallout and the reactions and the actual humor of the way it is revealed and the way these arguments and the bickering kind of escalates. Sure. That's what's kind of fun about it.

But yeah, getting spoilers. Yeah. So essentially they find out that the couple that lives upstairs that they invited for dinner and drinks or whatever wanted to connect with them to invite them to like an orgy basically and do like ethical non-monogamy stuff which was like you know I could tell immediately from the trailer I'm like oh this is going to be about like ethical non-monogamy in some fashion either it's going to be like poly thing or orgy thing or something right and it just like I felt like that's where

the movie started to lose me because they really squandered like a really good opportunity to have something that felt authentic and genuine. And it could still be funny too. Like you could still have comedy. But like if it really felt as though it was a normy surface level kind of exploration of that subject where clearly they're trying to play for laughs these really basic, like, if you're over the age of, like, fucking 20, like not even like a big deal sort of things. Like, oh, the male character likes to get topped sometimes. And that's like obviously supposed to be played for laughs.

So like, oh, Penelope Cruz's character likes to use a strap on. It's like, okay, yeah, people do sex shit. Some people do it in a way that's different than you. Like, I don't know, what's your fucking experience? Like, who the hell is this for? Like it's just felt really juvenile and just not meaningful, which sucks because it tried to pretend it was being meaningful, especially by the end. I mean, yeah, I mean, that's kind of, I felt similarly about it. It just felt like, oh, this is an interesting subject to explore.

And they didn't. And I'm like, okay, let's see where this is leading to. Like, where is this going to lead to? And it just kind of felt like, yeah, this is just like a funny thing that ends up being a kind of stimulus to their. break to the breakdown of their relationship in a way that was just like oh we're just kind of doing this like okay now we're having it they could have been furries they yeah they could have could have gone anywhere i mean i was just kind of like oh it'd be funny if it just ends with them being like in this big open relationship like or something like that but it ends up becoming like

penelope cruz is kind of like their therapist at the end of the film and they have this thing about their relationship and personally to me the best parts of the move of were like just kind of the faux paws, the social dynamics between this couple. You have this couple that's very confident in themselves. That seems very happy. And this couple that is literally constantly on a breakdown that you could tell immediately from the start of the film what their dynamic is. And I just wish that there were, not that their relationship isn't interesting to follow and I liked their performances, but I wish there were a few more wrinkles to that dynamic. because one thing I didn't, I thought was maybe like tipping the hand a little bit too much or a bit of a mistake was the starting the movie with Seth Rogen at his rehearsal.

And you see how kind of like a jerk he is with his students and how he just doesn't care. And I felt like immediately you're like, oh, this dude is just like a fucking asshole. And he is the whole movie. So that by the end, I was just like, yeah, you guys need to like break up or something. Like this is just. They both suck. Yeah, I was just like, I don't care that much about your relationship. I'm sorry.

Like, you guys have a new little therapy session about it. I'm just like, you guys clearly want to fuck these people. Let's move in that direction instead of having this like remorseful by the piano. Like, hey, what is our, like I just at a certain point it became, I think maybe if you're too much into the comedy, which I enjoyed. But the comedy elements kind of dampen some of the deeper relationship stuff. I don't know. Yeah. Really, yeah.

I kind of preferred the community. comedic stuff than being real like I kind of liked how much of a dicky was and how there was that that tension building with him wanting to bring up this kind of awkward that they can hear them banging constantly and he wants to bring it up she obviously doesn't she's like very house proud and has that whole angle I thought that was like a fun dynamic and then obviously the the contrast of them as couples was kind of fun and I kind of agree that when it got to the the sexual stuff and the orgy stuff, it just kind of lost a little bit of focus or, yeah, it felt like it was crazier than it was.

It felt like Olivia Wilde in particular was like almost over-compensating with some of the like, like, whoa, isn't this awkward? Yeah, I can't just show it, cowards. Angled to it, yeah, yeah, and there were like moments, like I thought Edward Norton brought, um, like, it was, like, really awkward kind of serious speech about his, like, nickname and stuff. That was, like, a kind of fun character moment. I thought Penelope Cruz was particularly funny as well. I thought there was some good, like, awkward just interactions between these characters.

But, yeah, it just didn't feel like it ended with much resonance or, like, what the overall point was outside of kind of, like, a fun, kind of silly ride. But for that, I'd kind of prefer it to be a bit more, like, a carnage length with it, like, being an hour on 20 or something like that. Sure. It felt like it was trying to almost be. be like an awards type thing. I felt like it was kind of working better as more of a, just kind of like a silly romance drama kind of comedy thing. Yeah.

It doesn't seem to know what it is. Like it seems to think it's like a 10. You know, I mean, I don't know. Maybe some people interpret it that way. But like, I also felt the, the music was like way too hard in the beginning. Oh, thank you.

Yes. Yeah. Like what it was showing on screen. was not at the same level that the music was. And there were points in the film where it matched, right? And I was like, oh, wow, yeah, thank you. This is, like, a bit more at the same level or complimentary or, like, subtle, right? But it was just not just the presence of it, not just the volume of it, but also, like, the tone.

And, like, what it was communicating musically had a lot more, like, answer than question for the beginning of the movie, right? Which, you know, if you're starting it with that tone, I feel like you just, it needed something different and it wasn't the best decision, in my opinion. It was a bit over the top. I mean, at the risk of sounding, like, too harsh about the movie, I do want to emphasize, like, it is a well-made movie. Like, it is well done. Yeah. I was entertained the whole time. I, you know, laughed a couple times.

It was, you know, the performances I could admire. I liked how the environment of the apartment is utilized creatively. It never feels like we're stifled in a, or it does feel stifling, but in an intentional way. So all of these things, it worked very well. It just didn't knock me out. I wish there was a little bit more to it. Yeah.

Yeah. There's some cool intention to like the way it was framed and blocked out, lots of good like reflection shots and mirrors and positioning people for like the highest impact or like comedians. delivery of something. Yeah, it went in some fun directions, like when it wasn't just one note with, like, Seth Rogen and Olivia Wilde being, like, this dysfunctional couple against this, like, perfect couple.

I liked when it showed some cracks between Norton and Cruz with the argument over him, like, critiquing her Spanish, or English, sorry. That kind of stuff was fun. But, yeah, it's just not left that deep an impression on me, especially with that ending. Like, the, I didn't really get the piano. thing. Seth Rogen's character was decently well fleshed out with his kind of

he was like in a band that had like a one hit wonder and I kind of liked that texture to his character where that goes. I just didn't feel like it resolved in a satisfying kind of way for me. It was just like I guess

this is over. You know what I'm realizing is a gigantic problem with this movie right now is it doesn't feel like it presents itself as the type of film where what it's communicating is going to have some sort of like build or crescendo on the other pieces that it presents.

And many awkward comedic films do this in ways that are very entertaining. But in reality, this is a movie that like outside of a couple things that are established from very early on, they don't really incorporate a whole lot from the building nature of the film. Like, it's not very complex. Like, it isn't, it isn't like this and then this because of this, because of this, right? It's just a lot of this and then this and then this and then this. And then in the middle, there's like a thing. Like, it just, it, it doesn't feel like the runtime is utilized for the script, right?

there was so much more opportunity for conversations or information to be revealed or events or anything to actually have an impact from one scene to the next and lead into another thing. Yeah, no, it's just, it's kind of like a wasted runtime is what I'm realizing right now. Like just jokes without any real meaning, like detached from the rest of the experience. Like sure, they're in line with their, they're in line with their characters, but they don't mean anything to the story for me. most of it. I'll have to think about that. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, I didn't feel that strongly about that kind of side of it. It was more just kind of peppy and watchable, but just didn't feel that deep. And it thought it was as part of what irritates me, is it presents itself very much like it, it thinks it's deep, how much they linger on that shot at the end too. I just kind of wish they all fucked.

I mean, I think that would have been like, like, the fact, like. As soon as Seth Rogan like hurts his back, I'm just like, ah, fuck off. Come on. Like, can we just like- Yeah, that was done in such an immature way too. And then we go back to like this dynamic. And then we have to have the scene where they have their big argument breaking down.

Well, you're the reason the relationship's bad. No, you're the reason the relationship's bad. And it's just like, yeah, we've, I mean, we kind of know what the issue is with the relationship already. We get it. Like, they finally come to that realization. But I don't know. I just kind of wanted the movie to go out on a limb.

and see, like, what would happen if these characters had sex with these other? Like, how would that change their relationship? Yeah. You know, I don't know. I wanted it to go that way. It does kind of refuse to explore the most interesting things that it lays on the table. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I... We have marriage story at home almost, right? Like, it doesn't really delve into their relationship in, like, a meaningful way or, like, any of these dynamics. I also felt like really fucking irritated that these characters, Ed Norton and Penelope Cruz, were, you know, from the film's perspective, I very strongly implying that, you know, like they're experienced in ethical monogamy. And yet, like, I don't know. This is like the first dinner kind of sit down you're having with them and you're dropping that on them while they're arguing the entire time. They're both clearly unstable people. I'm sorry, you don't want to bring that into like your sexual relationship.

You also live in the same fucking building. What the hell is wrong with you people? Like thankfully near the end, Penelope Cruz does say like, okay, yeah, no, I didn't think they were ready. And then you pressured me sort of thing. So it's like almost kind of acknowledging it, but still like, Jesus Christ, Christ, like these are some of the most like irresponsible people. Right. These people learned that orgies were a thing that day. like he can't do that to them

why would you want to fuck that they're like children in adult bodies oh geez no yeah it does lend like a thanks for pointing that out that does kind of make it seem much weirder the

Edward Norton I mean yeah they do address it somewhat but I do find it kind of funny that they just kind of disappear at the end of the movie They're just like, okay, they just leave, yeah. Bye, bye, bye. We're ghosts. It's kind of like they, it kind of reinforces the idea that they're just kind of like this stimulant to their relationship to be like, okay, you're done. They're kind of more of a tool to them where, although they get fleshed out somewhat, it does feel more kind of like we aren't as interested in their world than we are in what that world means to this classic heterosexual monogamous relationship.

And yeah. Oh, yeah. They definitely feel like more of a tool. Yeah. Like interested in like fleshing out the characters in like a realistic way. I don't know. It's sensationalized. It's needed to like commit.

It's sensationalized, but it's also, that almost makes it sound like too, too crazy. You know, like a bringing up the drama. In concept, you know? Like, oh, look at like the whole point of the comedy is like, aha, these people are weird. Because they're doing something different. Like that's the sensationalism is like not. It's like this scandalous. Feels like this would come out in the 70s and be kind of like, oh my God, can you believe they're doing this?

Right, yeah. That's a good way. Yeah, that would be crazy in the 70s. But like today, it's just like, okay, grandma. I like, let's go. That almost kind of feels like the target demo too. Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

It's like people of this kind of age that are in the film. And yeah. I don't know. It's just messing like a little bit of a bite for me that's leaving it to be like memorable because I don't know. there was like a section in kinds of kindness that kind of had like a couple swap thing going on and that was like really fucked up and memorable um i gotta watch that again yeah there's just there's just something in some are not there but i don't know it's a weird ones of critiques i just don't really

feel that strongly on it i don't have the deepest notes on it i just don't feel like it's the deepest movie but it's not that i wouldn't even like recommend it i actually would recommend this um most for the if you just like these bottle performance movies with just a lot of dialogue and kind of like, especially awkward scenarios, especially in the first half, that stuff was like fun. Yeah, the way that was contrasting and like the awkwardness of the situation and like Seth Rogen not wanting it to happen at all and kind of being like a dick and the humor that would bring to it.

Like, yeah, I thought it was solid. It was enjoyable. Sure. Yeah, no, I agree. It's not something to, it's not something that we can really like talk forever about because it doesn't give us much, but that's perfectly fine because we talked a lot about the Odyssey anyway.

So I'm fine just giving ratings. I didn't hate this movie. Just my gripes are what's keeping it from. The presentation, the acting, et cetera, like it felt like those would be better suited in a different film, right? Like to bring to life a different story

that had more things to say and was more interesting. But instead, they're in service of something that just, like, doesn't matter. And I'm never going to watch again. So six out of ten for me. Maybe a low six, actually. Yeah. Alex. Yeah, I was slightly above that.

I enjoyed it a bit more, like a low three and a half star or seven. But it was okay. Definitely a step up from her previous movie, liked all the performances. Like a lot of the filmmaking here was intentional. enjoyable, just hasn't really left much of an impact on me. Yeah, same. Seven, seven or ten. Yeah, all right.

But I'm happy we watched it. Happy we talked about it. You guys want to get into the recommendation? Yes. Yeah, let's do it. You recommended The Love That Remains by Fleener Palmerston. Almost, maybe, maybe. Wait, you guys watched the wrong movie?

Uh-oh. Yeah, we watched 19. 93's The Piano directed by Jane Campion, written and directed by Jane Campion,

starring Holly Hunter and Anna Pacquin famously, I believe she's the youngest Oscar winner for supporting actress,

child performance. Anyways, this is a movie that I saw many years ago and it left a great impact on me. I really liked it.

And I thought this would be a great time to revisit it, considering it It also stars Sam Neal, who recently passed away. And he gives us wonderful performance in this. Also, Harvey Keitel.

This movie bears a strong resemblance, I realized, to a recent movie. That was recently recommended on this podcast, Days of Heaven. I found it strikingly similar, which I never noticed before. So after all these years revisiting it, I got the 4K on Criterion. It was very, very beautiful to look at. but what did you guys think of the piano? Who wants to go first? Alex.

I can go first. I enjoyed this. I like the setting. This kind of Victorian mid-19th century New Zealand setting was quite cool. I was curious how they were going to address certain elements of that. But it's kind of more interested in being a very kind of Wuthering Heights relationship, kind of feminist angle with this really cool Holly Hunter main character who's, you.

you joked in the opening of this episode. She hasn't spoken. Her voice is her piano, basically. She's used, like, as a cool, like, metaphorical kind of visualization of the position she's in as a woman in the time. I thought that was, like, the heart of the movie. What made it work? What made it tick?

A bunch of great characters around it. My favorite part about it was how it was shot. It's, like, gorgeous to look at. The landscape shots, very painterly, moody and gray, does make it kind of feel Gothic with the choices that will put into its presentation. That was kind of what pulled me through it the most was just that look of it, stunning stuff. What about you, Adam, top level stuff? Yeah, yeah, same. I mean, like the presentation was like the biggest takeaway aspect.

I love, yeah, like immediately there's shots that I can just remember visually from having watched it. You know, this is, this is like a big part of my experience and my love for, like, the artistry of film is just how things are presented. And don't get me wrong, I love, like, a good story and I love being able to connect with characters. And so having, like, that all is one, like, symbiotic piece is, like, my ideal. But, yeah, the, being able to, like, absorb a scene. I wasn't even thinking about fucking The Odyssey when watching it. that I'm about to talk about this. It's like, it's pretty fucking clear night and day, the comparison.

Like, there's so much to get out of even just like the opening and like the waves crashing. And you kind of like feel the environment and the like temperature even. Like it's a very not sensational, sensory kind of experience. Music was also really great too. very strong composition and tone. Yeah. Some memorable shots, like the, a lot of peep hole kind of eyes looking through holes,

shots, but they looked really striking. There's a shot where the little girl is, like, I think the dog was there with her. I'm trying to remember if she was the only character in the shot or not. But the way it was lit was like not quite a silhouette, but very close, like approximating one. And it was just such a beautiful, like, painting, basically. And there's so much of that in the film.

I like that. Yeah. I mean, it's visually, yeah, it's just spectacular. It's so, so beautiful the way that it's, you know, it's filmed in the, in the bush and all of the, you feel this claustrophobia with all of the atmosphere. And I guess the cinematographer, he wanted to film. And they shot with like a blue filter on a lot of these scenes to make it feel like they wanted to get this feeling of being underwater in this landscape. That's cool.

There's just the mud, the rain, the sweat, clashing up against this Victorian, you know, the big dresses and all these people. Very much kind of like revisiting sort of like Western tropes very similar to like the kind of colonialism of the, the, the westerns, but here the Maori are very much, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing that, but they aren't the center of the story, but they are like kind of crucial to the environment. And there's moments in which we get to see that they're kind of still in control of this world

because it's the early days of these colonists arriving. And there's the moment where Sam Neal is trying to like sell, them buttons and they're just like, are we children? Do we look like children? Why do we want these buttons? Those things stood out, but, you know, yeah, I think the heart of it is this very powerful story of this woman who can't speak, and she's sold to, you know, marry this guy with her daughter, and how she kind of has this willpower to try to be herself, and the piano represents everything that she is. That is like a limb on her body, you know,

and to have to live without it, and the thing she has to go through to try to be connected to it, it's really just a very, like, elemental movie. You feel it like in your guts as you watch it. It's kind of upsetting in certain ways. The relationship dynamics, like Alex, I think you mentioned, Wuthering Heights.

It is very gothic. got in the special features on the Criterion disc, Jane Campion talked a lot about being inspired by the Brontes and wanting this gothic feel. And there is this like dark, creepy romance to it that is explored again with just this visual beauty and performances that are astounding. I mean, Sam Neal, he isn't like even the center of this movie, but every time he's on screen, the way he communicates, this burning desire for. urging on rage. He's just such a powerful antagonistic force. Yet there are moments in the movie that you feel like tenderness for him and you feel so sorry for him. Like balancing that is so

mesmerizing, not even to mention Holly Hunter's performance where she doesn't speak. Everything that she communicates in her eyes, it's amazing. I feel like the elephant in there, not really the elephant in the room, but I mean, Adam, you have issues. with so many child performances, and this is maybe one of the most famously lauded and praised child performances. What did you think of, what is you think of Anna Pac-Win? No, yeah, she was great. I think that the only issue that I had with, like, the child character is that, like, a good chunk of her dialogue seemed like, would a child say that sort of thing? Like, maybe a bit too, like, articulate. But since she was, like, you know, pretty much the only child, like, she wasn't, there weren't

a lot of other like reference points for this universe in the time period and what it was getting at in terms of all of those different factors that I was able to just believe like okay either this is like either this is like not that abnormal for this place or she's like some kind of neurodivergent child's uh in terms of influencing the way that she's speaking But the performance was great. So like the way that she worked with the dialogue that she was given, I didn't really have any issue with. So that was refreshing.

I wonder if part of it too is that she's like such a bullshitter of a child. Yeah. She's always telling fake stories and making things up that it feels very much in league with a kind of like a child trying to perform because she is consciously performing in the movie as it is. yeah, just felt very fitting. And she just, I mean, the thing is with, like, child performances, I feel like that most of that falls onto the director of being able to, you know, like, tease out a performance that is fitting tonally.

So not to take away any of Anna Paquin's, you know, ability to act or anything. Well, there is, like, with the way the story is structured, there's like a huge payoff to that character that goes on, like, a really, really dark direction towards the end that I felt like kind of escalated the story to places whereas oh wow you're going there cool like it is very reminiscent of a Wuthering Heights it doesn't get as dark as that story but I appreciated like how it felt like it was escalating on itself and playing with this kind of like love triangle in a way that I found intriguing because that can often be kind of just like a crutch or like dull or played out or feel like

just going through the motions but I liked that angle of it particularly because of this setting and um before we move on from the like the mary element of the movie i i still don't think they would have made this film the same way if they're making this now no no no absolutely that kind of angle because they do use them a lot for like i mean you kind of put it perfectly they're not really characters they're kind of just part of the background yeah um it's like it's stuck in this awkward position where it has to be set in this time period where these people wouldn't really have had like rights to own land in the same way, which is like the whole crux of the story. So you can really have the Harvey Cartel character be like an actual Maori because he's just

kind of like inspired by them and is integrated with them and has like the tattoos on his face. And that kind of stuff. It's kind of that like gone native quote trope. And that kind of element, which kind of felt like you wouldn't really do this now. I don't think. Yeah. And like using them for like comic relief with the shadow puppet scene. And that kind of stuff was just like, yep, yep, we wouldn't really do that.

They felt kind of like, yeah, for comic relief kind of caricatures in the background a bit more, which was a bit of a shame for me because I thought that was one of the more interesting elements of this setting and like specifically putting it in New Zealand around this time is such a young country. And the colonizer angle to it is like a big, there's like shitloads going on there. And this script isn't really interested in addressing that outside of the all kind of joke, which they do nicely when they acknowledge it through like the Sam Neal character in particular with certain junks they do with the You Shame these trunks

and like is washing them and that kind of stuff was like a cool angle like nodding towards the the kind of colonial angle that's called to the story and that kind of contrast of the Keitel who's like integrated with the land as against Sam Neal who's like he's very victorious or dresses in these ridiculous outfits and that's visually communicated through like Holly Hunter's dress and getting through the mud in like silence and it just is a ridiculous image

which kind of highlights like these themes that it's going for but there were a couple of things like that and even from like a the kind of feminist perspective there is some kind of interesting choices with the Kitell character where the agency Holly Hunter's agency is kind of linked to being stuck between these two men one who is in this coercive dynamic of kind of like trading sexual favors for like the only element of her life that gives her joy like these piano keys got a piano kink us on one hand it's very thorny it's very yeah it's not a it's not a clean tidy romance it's very fucked up yeah not at all yeah it's really fucked up um but yeah i i'd like to a lot of the performances and it just felt like there were some things that kind of yep this feels

very 93, like a 93 way of doing some of these things. But I enjoyed his overall shape. Maybe I have some blind spots with Harvey Kytel, but I feel like this film, like he played so much more of like a transformational character. Like it was so far away from what I've usually seen him do that I was like really impressed with the accent especially. Yeah, that didn't bug me. Yeah, it's such a physical performance.

It's very, like, just his presence is really, like, astonishing. Yeah. It doesn't feel like Harvey Kytel in the movie. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, every performance was strong. There wasn't a single, a single week one. And lots of very memorable sequences and set pieces with strong imagery. Like the shadow puppets were all fun.

And again, not just like purely the visual, but also like the feel of the environment, right? And the sound design playing a part in that or even something as simple as like pissing in the bush, right? Like it does add to the overall setting and time period and like tone of what you're experiencing in the film, right? Like it's an interesting environment choice. Yeah, some of the forest sounds were really well done, like birds chirping at like different times of day, like establishing mood through sound design. My one criticism with the sound design is there was quite a few stock sounds.

I guess in 93, you know, there's like large libraries of that, but less of an awareness of it from average audience members. So, yeah, just me into particular. No, I think, yeah, the performances are wonderful. I think for, it's an interesting little feature on the criteria in this. They had the Maori advisor. He was like the historical and cultural advisor on the film. They did an interview with him, you know, 25 now years later.

And he talked about, you know, the elements. of the thing that work and what he basically talks about it like yeah for the early 90s this was a this was a step in the right direction you know in terms of representing the maria on screen and um it talks about some of the drawbacks of the film too but i i i really like that they they talked to him and got that um perspective there you know because the movie the movie is like trying to reach into this world that doesn't even feel grounded in like the specific details necessarily. Like you never know specifically what everyone is doing, whose jobs, everyone.

You know, it does feel like you're just kind of immersed from Holly Hunter's perspective of like, I want my fucking piano. Like it's kind of like, no better title for this movie. This movie's all about this fucking piano. And I don't know, like, I grew up playing piano. I've always played piano. Nice. I did piano lessons all my life until now.

but now I fucking suck at it. But that her being able to express herself in the piano, the way the music is so beautiful. And what she plays ties into the score so perfectly that, like there's something just so, again, just like elemental and personal about the way she needs this. This is a part of who she is. And nobody can understand that

or is using that to get what they want from her. that can we talk spoilers yeah all right so that by the time she refuses the piano after she's had her finger chopped off you know like by the time she refuses and basically jumps into the water it gets pulled in dragged in by the piano um the fact that the movie decides then to not because it could have ended with her dying like i could have totally see it going in that direction but the fact that she and sometimes when I watch it I think like wait does it end happen I forget if it ends with her like surviving yes and no yeah it's like because the movie ends with that final shot of her she's like as some part of me feels like I'm still down there in the ocean which is cool

I thought it was very cool what an amazing image yeah yeah a resting image her like it's like reverse hanging like underwater with that piano yeah the metaphor there is strong i really thought that was cool and clever like as you're saying the is that the real ending like it's framed as a dream at the very end of the film but it's also like hmm makes you think i would interpret it that way as it well as in like the that it didn't actually happen but like the feeling of it you're supposed to like connect with like her mental state and situation, you know, like, that it's supposed to be like imagery and, and a feeling of, of a situation and environment that you're supposed to be applying to more

parts of the film other than just that. Yeah. It, like, visualizes her internal struggle really well. Yeah. One image. Like, it's, yeah, quite brilliant. It's kind of funny in a way, because it's like, I almost thought, like, you right when I watched it, I was like, oh, I guess they couldn't decide between a happy ending and a sad ending, so they chose both.

But no, it is purposeful. I like what it's saying with it. Yeah, it's not quite a, I was thinking at times with like a dancer in the dark or something like that. It doesn't get quite that bleak. But just the idea of kind of using like a, like a disability, something physical to like explore. a character. What they do with that? And the scenes of her playing piano, they didn't seem to be cutting away. So I guess she can play the piano extremely well.

Holly Hunter, I mean. She did. I watched an interview. She could play before, but then she worked really hard to learn everything so that they didn't have to use a double. That's very cool. It does make a difference. It makes it kind of more like immersive from that angle.

There are some scenes where it looks great and some scenes. in some scenes where it has the right idea, but not entirely accurate. Whereas like someone being able to play doesn't mean that they're playing the exact right notes at the right time. Sometimes the way that they'll film it, even if you are playing the same piece,

will be like not at the same tempo. If you don't like match things out specifically to a metronome, there would be, you know, unless you've got like the entire score especially and how it like leads into it planned out all beforehand, then you wouldn't really have an option other than to just like kind of do the general tempo that you're supposed to. So yeah, it was cheated a lot better than a lot of other movies,

but not perfect. It was like 75%, is what I would say. I, you know, something I really love about this movie is the complexity of the two men in addition to Holly Hunter who, both are monstrous and really are horrible. But getting to see this tenderness in Harvey Keitel after he decides to just give the piano back, after seeing what he's doing to her is really fascinating.

And then seeing Sam Neal's character, one of my favorite scenes in the movie is when Holly Hunter and Harvey Keitel have sex for the first time, Sam Neal is there. He sees he can watch through in the little hole. as he's watching, a dog licks his hand. Yeah, that was so good. And he just absent-mindedly wipes his hand on the house. And it's just one of those little, like, sensory details is just like, the fuck? But it's so memorable. And he stays and he goes under the house and he watches them the whole time. And this obsession, this kind of like passion that he can't express himself, he can't release himself. That later in the

film when he ends up walking her and her daughter in the house. And Holly Hunter is like, touching him and doing, like, if he was just into butt stuff, like, it could have just worked up, you know, I don't know. I think that's the moral of the story. Like, he cannot find that, like, that way to treat her like anything except his property. And, you know, Harvey Kytel, despite what he does to her and how he manipulates and uses her, ultimately treats her as more of a human than Sam Neal. And like the fact that she is is given the piano by him is just kind of like, hold on, I get this thing that is part of my soul, you know, that the fact that the violation of when Sam Neal finally chops off her finger, it is, I remember first watching it. I just felt like this gut punch and Holly Hunter's reaction to it. Her performance in that moment is so stunning the way she's just like resigned and just like. Yeah.

Just her acceptance and despair is so stunning. Just like, of course. Of course this had to happen. Of course. You know, it's so, so bleak and upsetting. Yeah, it just hurts in like such a deep psychological way, like him targeting a finger like that. Like the only way of like communicating. There's something like so deep and warped about that. And his justification, I think right before that where he's saying like, why do you make me hurt you?

And it is like the inverse of the Keitel thing who is, he points a kind of inward more where he has that kind of, you have to remember like, I guess, when. the story is set he says something like make it it's making you a whore and me wretched it's like how he justifies um why he wants to cut off this strange arrangement they have um but i guess comparatively that is the quote nicer way to act um given the circumstances but yeah i thought that was a real escalation and weird fucked up payoff with the finger moment and also like looping back around to it with the kind of metal finger and the sound design of that and watching how play that is another kind of strong image. I thought that was very well done. I really found it satisfying the way it kind of built up to that moment and

finished after it. Yeah, no, she was really fucking going for it. The physicality of her performance when she was like crawling like in the rain or whatever kind of like stumbling around on all fours was like, wow. Like that that's a very visceral image and it made me uncomfortable like in a good way. Yeah, very, very well presented. And I like how the cinematography there complimented it to like just being so much more close. Yeah. Yeah, great stuff. Like there's aspects of the film that I'm like now talking about it. I'm like realizing that during watching it, I wasn't even like thinking about it just because they were functioning so well as like a part of the piece. Like the weather and environment choices during certain parts, you know, like, it wasn't so, like, Hollywood over

the top kind of, like, stereotypical, like, environment tone-wise. Like, it was fitting. No, and emphasized, like, beautifully after when Anna Pac-Quinn is kind of confronted by the Harvey Keitel character, and, like, her performance there is, like, horrifying. Yeah. She's kind of breaking down and screaming in reaction to it, because it's obviously, her mother and you know she's like a child character so it's it's like a eye-opening moment for her in like the worst possible way for like a child's perspective and it really communicates that yeah and

like you never see a screaming child in a movie that actually screams like a child would scream like that's like unheard of because usually they just do this like half-ass like ah or whatever or like just the like as if they're trying to hit like a high-pitched note even if they do, like, project their voice enough. Whereas, you know, this character, it's literally, like, basically doing what I wish the fucking crow noise in The Odyssey was doing when he grew. You know, like, basically, like, making really ugly kind of wailing sounds. I'm like, yeah, you know what?

That sounds, that's accurate. It feels real, which is great. Great. I like it when the extra effort is made to distinguish yourself from the, other properties that just couldn't do it. Now, the way that Anna Paquin starts to, like, give into this, like, traditional patriarchal, like, this is your father. Like, he knows what's best that she stops listening to her mother.

It's just so heartbreaking and, you know, upsetting that she, when she takes that piano key to Sam Neal is just like, like, it feels extremely, like yeah of course like this is a child like this makes total sense and that her response her reaction or scream the way Harvey Cytale shakes her is just yeah it's so so upsetting and the weirdness of oh my god it's so disturbing the way after Sam Neal chops off her finger and he's tending her in bed and then he tries to have sex with her um it's and then he it's bizarre the way that scene plays out the way he goes to Harvey Cytel's house afterwards with the gun and he's like she spoke to me. She like expressed this to me her willpower. Like it's it's a it is very much

this Wuthering Heights like ghostly like there's some otherworldly forces going on here. Yeah. To where he finally relinquishes his control over her. We don't know what happens to him. It's strange, it's it's it's kind of a strange weird ending. But I love it nonetheless. less, yeah, it's just one of those movies that the more I think about it, it's kind of like quietly, it's not like ostentatious in a way where you're like, oh yeah, that's a masterpiece. It's just like, oh, wow, that everything just kind of like works really well. Yeah. It's on every cylinder.

The love triangle is like surprising and strange. Everything that happens in the film, it feels inevitable, but also a little surprising. just a very balanced, like, tonal movie. And like Days of Heaven, it does feel just like a full experience of the senses. You have to just, like, dive in. It's less about... And I guess Jane Campion told the cinematographer at the start of the production, like, are you ready for this?

Because we're making a silent film, you know? Like, you've got to be on your A game. This is basically a silent movie. Yeah. Yeah, it's one of those that I'm happy to revisit it because it's just stuck with me all these years and for a good reason. Very well realized, I would say. Yeah, I'd watch this again. Yeah, same.

Yeah, no, I think I'd enjoy it more on my second watch. Not that I didn't like it on my first, but. All right. Ratings? I mean, I'm like nine or ten on this one. I'd say nine. Nice. Yeah, I'd be slightly lower than that.

Well, I enjoyed myself. I have my critiques here and there. I did enjoy how you could really tell it was directed by a woman, the way like nudity was depicted, the kind of sexual tensions, like that was on point, like that kind of stuff. Yeah, I guess could have done with a bit more expansion on the setting and the time period

is way more focused on the kind of Victorian, and patriarchy element of it, which I think it does very well through its main character. I would shout out there's a film shot by the same DP as this movie, Stuart Dryburne, that came out a year after this movie called Once Were Warriors, which is a Maori New Zealand film, or Maori perspective film, I should say. Just want to shout out on this conveyor. Cool. Yeah, gorgeous, though.

Like, a lot of these shots are going to be, like, burned into my mind, a visual thinker, a visual learner. Love that like shell sea horse on the beach towards the beginning and yeah, just all this location stuff. That stuff is really prime. Seven out of ten for me. Great stuff. We'd watch it again.

Cool. All right. Thanks guys. I'm glad we revisited this. Well, thank you. RIP Sam Neal. Yeah, good rack. Ironson piece.

Rip Sam. Yep. I always pick like weird cool subjects All right questions Questions? Right, this is some questions then From the Saldoncast community Head over to the suggestion thread

Over on the subreddit If you want me questions for future episodes Just like physical ask Did we can get started here How do you guys expect Dune's Day to turn out Barbenheimer worked Because it felt like two movies Giving each other free marketing

Turning the whole thing into a celebration of cinema in all its forms Dune's Day feels different to me Instead of people embracing both movies, it feels more like a direct competition where audiences are expected to pick aside and argue over which film is better. I'm also curious what you guys think about Disney's push for Infinity Vision. Feels like a thinly veiled attempt to distract from the fact that they made the stupid decision to release their blockbuster when IMAX screens were already booked for Dune. Yeah. Yeah, literally.

It's funny that the question is asking us something, but then kind of gives us the answers that we're all probably going to get. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, it's not fun in the same way, is it? Well, I mean, yeah, first of all, it was a natural thing that came from people and not corporations trying to sell it to you. And second, it was juxtaposition. That's why it was funny. Yeah, exactly. Right? And people wanted to see both, and they were different. Pink movie versus sad movie.

Yeah. There's a lot of crossover, you know, like big epics, like in sci-fi or kind of fantasy spaces. Although, like, is there anyone who really thinks that Avengers is going to be like a better made film or more interesting on that level than Dune 3? No. It's not everything, obviously, but like, putting the trailers side by side is a big thing just like for a production. And like it looks like one of them looks like a film and one looks like this weird. Exactly. AI generation thing. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the best thing that could possibly come out of this is like more people being. like, wait a minute, this is kind of slop. Like seeing things side by side. Like, wait, we can get, we can get better things. Okay. I think there's a level of hubris here, but it might be justified in Disney thinking that Dune Part 3 is just not a threat to their movie. And I think, you know, maybe it'll tell that.

I think there are very different audiences showing up to both movies. I think the people who are interested in watching Dune 3 were probably not, really that excited to be watching in another Avengers movie in the first place. I mean, yeah, some crossover. Obviously, I'm more excited for Dune 3, but I'm more, I'm excited also for Avengers simply because I want to know like what, what are they getting up to? What are they going to do?

It feels like something where a ship has been going full speed right into a bunch of rocks, and it's right about to hit the rocks. And then the captain is just like, okay, let's just turn it really fast. and we have one movie to do it now. And it's just like, okay, this is our chance. This is like, do or die. Fuck it. Like, we just got to figure this shit out.

Let's bring back Jonathan Majors. There's a twist. Oh, no. I love how sweaty it is. It does feel like a break glass in case of emergency, like situation for them. Yeah. And that's the main reason I want to see it too. It's just like, yeah, okay.

Going in my arms crossed to a degree of like, you've been fucking up lately. Like, this is like the final test of the brand because this shit was. expensive too. When I was looking up, it was like six, 700 million, like starting point. So it's like, it's like advertise kind of numbers where they need, they have to make billions for the budget to make money back on it. 700 million? Including advertising. I was seeing like three, 400 for the budget. 500 of that went to Robert Downey Jr.

Yeah, hundreds of millions of it, I assume, is for this ridiculous cast. All the biggest people in Hollywood are in. Yeah, I guess a real test of that. to see if just the team up shit is enough for people to go and like ride off this hype thing I guess whereas my mind is open for Dune 3 just from like a story level like where we going with this this is like there's something big and cool

and epic about this whereas yeah yeah it's more like desperation on the other side is like the word for I think I'm gonna see how I'm doing that week we're gonna see like exactly like if I'm really busy with other shit uh because my health matters to me, you know. Well, yes. Don't.

There's a lot of things taken up in my schedule from health-related shit, right? I'm doing a lot of doctors' appointments. I'm doing a lot of physiotherapy. I'm doing a lot of, like, investigating, trying to get shit figured out. I'm finally seeing a rheumatologist in November. I had to fight to, like, even get that, right? But if the stars align, then it might not be a bad idea to start with, the Marvel one and watch a movie where I'll have zero context for anything going on

and maybe provide a unique experience like a unique review like here's what here's what my thoughts are as someone who didn't watch most of the other movies and has no idea what's going on but also I think I might enjoy Dune Part 3 more if I watch that second you know like if Doom Part 3 is the second movie in a day and the first one's guaranteed to be asked then I might enjoy that more. Yeah, it's going to be like, that's six hours of movie, though. Your perspective of jumping into Doomsday right now at this point is kind of what does, I think they're trying to market it to people who haven't seen anything. They're like, okay, yeah, remember end game? They're like, yeah, they're saying this is a sequel to end game. Like, oh yeah, the last one

everyone cared about, right? Look, when they bring back someone that we thought was gone, I'm going to clap. But be confused. They're doing the classic comic thing where it just gets so convoluted and no one wants to keep up anymore. So it's like reset. That's what I assume the movie's going to do and be. It's like reset. Yeah. Do it the flash.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they've done it in the X-Men movies too. Oh, yeah. I didn't even watch it. Like that's what I heard. That's a good one actually.

Yeah. We'll see. I think that film has a lot of cards going against it. I don't know. I'm pissed the Russo Brothers film that's exclusively an Infinity Vision so that those of us without Infinity Vision

won't get to experience the full experience, you know. I still don't really understand, like, I can tell you. Is there like a brand? Where are these screens? No. So it's literally just a classification.

So any theater in the world that meets a certain screen size, a certain audio setup with enough speakers of a certain quality made in a certain year, blah, blah, blah. And then also a certain amount of lumens for screen brightness will get the certification of infinity vision, but they're just existing theaters. So that's all they're doing. It's a grading system for existing theaters, and it's all a big fucking stupid

gimmick scam. And they're not like, they're just going to forget about it after. Like, it's just for this one movie and also the end game re-release is the other one that they're doing infinity before. It's not going to look different. Because they're charging. more for. They're charging more for it? Infinity Vision's charging more. I assume. That's insanity.

It is a scam. Why else would they do it? Why else would they do it? It's a scam. You have like information on that? It does kind of seem like they bought her about IMAX. That's so funny. Oh my God.

They wanted this spot. I mean, they saw that people are talking about IMAX. They saw that people at every Twitter post around fucking Odyssey is like, oh, IMAX in all these different formats. And they're looking at that as business people. people going like, ooh, if we do it in different formats and advertise that we're doing in different formats, then people will be talking about our movie more and we will be in a different format.

Like, that's all they saw. They have, they have no idea why anyone would want to watch it in a different format. They have no idea why anyone's excited about the Odyssey. They're just absolutely detached from the human experience. Yeah, they never really get it, do they? I mean, you saw the trailer. This movie's designed to be viewed optimally as a bunch of Instagram shorts strung to I feel like that's the best way to experience it.

So, I mean, it just, visually, it just does not look good. It looks like, yeah, like, but the thing is, I don't know what's going on because I do feel like people are like, hey, it looks so much worse than end game looked or Infinity War. And I'm like, it feels like it's pretty consistent, like visually in terms of this use of this CGI. Yeah, it looks 10 years old. Yeah. There is something fucked up with how it would be looking.

I know. I just hope they finish the script soon. Yeah, because obviously there is the fatigue element to a degree, but also like for how much they're spending, it doesn't look like, you know, an Avatar movie or something. They look polished. They look like a visual effects kind of like feast, but this just kind of feels like visual effects vomit,

like with no, and there's no like story level that's interesting either. So it was really reminded me of that last season of, stranger things. You know, the blockings like all fucked up and there's like 16 characters in like every scene? And it's like, what's the intention? Like, whoa. There's a shot of all of the

team standing together and I think someone said like Thor's coming out scene, you know. Yeah. It's just like that bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, too much. We'll see you there. I'll be there.

Maybe it'll be a surprise hit. I'll definitely be watching. Watching one of them. If you love them. What if you watch it? You're just like, yeah, that was great. Avengers Doomsday. Yeah.

That'd be awesome. I mean, if it had an interesting director attached to it, then that might be a possibility. I don't know if I don't know if I'm going to be surprised here. I think I've seen enough. Yeah. I think I've seen enough. And I think the more I talk about, the less I want to do it. You know?

I was trying to make excuses as to why I could do this thing. Also, Dune's Day just does not work as a name like Barb and. because it just sounds like you're saying doomsday, doomsday, doomsday, doomsday, doomsday, it's bad. Yeah. What are they doing? How about they call it Dunesville, Nueve. Dumeus.

Dumbus. Damn. I'm just, I have the IMD open and it's auto playing the trailer. This looks like the biggest piece of ass garbage I've ever seen my entire fucking life. It's disgusting. This is disgusting. This is a greater problem with society as a whole. This is not just about the movie.

This is the destruction of civilization, starting with white men. Started with the Trojan horse. Wow. And now we're here. Yeah. It's the Trojan horse, like when you make music or something. You haven't pre-ordered your Doomsday, the Thing variant pop vinyl. No, fuck pop vinyl.

Fuck that shit. I don't want a single one. Someone gave me one that's a garris, and I was like, oh, that's cool. And I kept it, and that's about it. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay.

Well, let's do this one from it. Zero time, Ben. Are there any films or shows that are adaptations of a piece of media that were good slash interesting enough for you to go and consume the original source material? Apologies for the potential strange wording, English is not my first language.

It was perfectly fine. You don't need to apologize. I got some, like, recent ones. I've kind of had the inverse thing happen though where... Supergirl. Yeah, Supergirl is like the most recent one where I was like, there has to be, like I've heard too much good stuff about the source material. There has to be something to it. And I went and read that and got something out of it. And similarly, speaking of the Rousseau's, their Netflix film from a year or two ago, the electric state. Awful, awful film. One of the most expensive films ever made, too, if I'm

remembering correctly based on this really like weird esoteric like graphic novel which is really like thoughtful and strange and just the inverse of that film um like because of that film i got into that um that artist which was kind of cool invincible as well as another big one i've read that entire thing because i was just sick of people spoiling it online so i can't be spoiled anymore and a novel i guess after watching naked lunch I thought it was so strange and interesting I read through that book and was quite impressed

the way it was written very very fucking weird story that impossible to put down yeah I mean I feel like I've always been I've had many instances where I've been like curious and not fully committed

like I'd love to read the original World War Z novel because that's like an entirely different experience than the movie. Oh yeah, so different. Yeah, I've read that. I'd love to read like Kirkman's Walking Dead.

Hmm. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, there's probably ones that are escaping my memory, but I, the only one I'm thinking of right now is like, well,

I checked out the web series for Nirvana of the Man the show. That counts. Yeah. That kind of original source material. Yeah, I feel like so many, uh, Of my favorite books, I discovered through movies originally.

I mean, a lot of my exploring and finding books that I wanted to read when I was like in elementary and middle school were because of movies like Jurassic Park. I was like, I want to read the book now. I read the book. And just like learning about like culture and everything through movies and then going, oh, this is based on something. I want to try to read that like Dracula or whatever. Like, yeah, there's so many actually.

Like, I mean, I just read the Count of Monte Cristo, and I remember loving the Guy Pearce movie from the early 2000s, which is a really fun movie. One of my favorite books, The Last Picture Show, I saw the movie several times. One of my favorite movies, Peter Bergdanovich. Have you guys seen The Last Picture Show? No. Oh, man. So good. and fucked up.

Love that book. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of ones. I feel like that's great. I mean, that's one of the good things about, like, if you, so many great movies are based on it. I read The Shining because of the movie, you know, so all that. Kubrick always adapting books. Yeah.

I don't know. There's literally too many to count at this point. Yeah. Yeah, for you especially. Yeah. There's some good answers in there. I thought this one for a major bike. It's a simple question.

Favorite movie of the year so far? Seven months in. What would be your number one if you had to pick right now? I think for me it's still Bone Temple. Is it fair to call it underrated at this point? Like it bombed, I guess. More people to go see it. That would be my top, I think.

I know. Literally just top movies of the year? Your favorite. like if you had to pick your favorite movie of the year so far, if it was right now, right here. Okay. Yeah, I got like a top three. I think I'm just going to remember what that is.

Because I talked about this like a week ago. Yeah, the drama was 2026. So I'm not including movies like Nirvona, The Band, The Show, The Movie, or Obsession because those are 2025 movies for me. So only movies that were released on 2026 according to IMDB. So my top three would be Bone Temple and number three. The drama in number two. And then number one, dire duplicity by Neil Breen.

Cool. A masterpiece. Yeah. I watched it twice in a row. Back to back. Did you? No, I did. Yeah, there were two screenings at the festival.

and I was like, what am I doing? I'm going to watch it twice anyway. It was a unique experience. It was very surreal, actually. It was like a fever dream, but like I loved it. I would count obsession as this year, just because that's when I got, everyone saw it. I mean, I think obsession is up there.

The drama absolutely is up there. And gosh. Michael, probably. Michael, the bride. Mercy. Citizen Vigilante. Now that I'm looking back at it, I wish there were, there's nothing that really stands out as like, oh yeah, this is my favorite at this point. I mean, I guess the better movies get released later, but nothing is really like, oh, yeah. Like last year, I guess at this point I'd say Eddington.

Eddington is still one of my favorites of the last, and sinners. But this year, I mean, I liked Project Hail Mary. I liked that quite a bit. I liked Send Help. I liked, yeah, the Bone Temple and the drama and obsession, and the Odyssey. But, yeah, nothing to me yet is kind of like, oh, that's an all-timer. Did it? I'll be a simple one.

Did either of you see the sheep detectives? I did not. But I heard a lot of people saying positive things about it in a way similar to other Normie masterpieces. Did you like it? It's good. It's good. It's like hot fuzz for like kids.

Nice. It's like a charming little British film about like a little village. It's fun. I don't think it's going to like rock your world. Like the visual effects for the sheep are quite incredible. Like all the shit we're saying about Disclosure Day and the animals in that. It's like we're at like a point where they're like photo real and you just like forget you're even watching these. like CG sheep. It's like quite

insane. It's got a pretty high budget too, but yeah, I'd reckon it's like a family movie. It wouldn't be in like my top ten so far anyway. Sure. Yeah, I wasn't sure what to do with the whole like 2025 thing because yeah, it is like technically

but all the discussion and like when I saw it was in 2025. So I personally have Navan, Navan the show the movie and obsession and waste man all in my 2026 site list in the top top five for sure

but yeah I could see omitting the 2025 stuff like Animal Farm is Stanley 2025 as well yeah that's like it's just come out in the UK it's quite confusing it's easier for me to keep them all contained in their initial festival premiere date because when I wind up doing my lists

it's now like a decade late anyway So it doesn't matter. Some of those movies in 2016, I'm actually like really close to getting screeners to and they weren't released. So some of them might justify the decade way. What list are you working on now? 2016.

Oh, okay. I'm literally a decade away. And it wasn't supposed to be this way. And shit happens. There's a few different factors. I was overly ambitious with all the titles that I would include with it. I decided to do like miniseries and TV shows and that's obviously not sustainable for me to ever do again and I'm going to have to cut that short and then, you know, et cetera,

life and other projects and health and et cetera, et cetera. I think it's cool that like 10 years now down the road is, I don't know, it's cool to like revisit that time now. Yeah. Yeah. The year of movies now with a bit of removed to have some better perspective. Yeah. I feel like it's more fun. No, I agree, actually.

You don't have any recency bias, like, changing anything about it? Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to have to email a director. There's a screener for a movie that never got, like, an actual release. Yeah. All right. Should we do a couple more here? Line this one down.

Let's do this one from Die With You. Have you ever brought up a terrible dog shit movie to someone talking about how much you hate it, only to discover that the person you're talking with actually loves it? Well, have been some uncomfortable revelations made with the discovery that someone you're friends with. And ironically, it loves a film. You despise. On this podcast weekly. Yeah, that's a good one.

I've had a couple, like, awkward exchanges with people over movies. It's never, like, that serious. Outside of one time where I was, like, talking shit about, like, sucker punch at Zach Snyder movie to somebody. Without realizing they were. like super into that film like like really into it like have tattoos from it oh no into it oh once it's like that deep oh yeah it's like skin deep um um uh that was kind of awkward like then it's like a fuck am i like attacking your like personality now kind of um yeah even though it's obviously like not that deep to me but uh it was to them yeah i've recently also had like a family

member bring up my toy story five review like this. You don't like Toy Story, huh? That's like a, I guess I just underestimate how much of like an institution I is. I was at like a music festival last week. And I kept tuning into people in the crowd just randomly talking about Toy Story. It's these random fucking people. Like it's such an institution. Like everyone like loves it.

I love the original three, but like, man, yeah. Those are my recent kind of ones. Yeah, no, I usually try to not loudly interject in social environments of people saying they enjoy a thing that I just like. I usually just kind of observe and go like kind of like nod along. And unless somebody's going to specifically ask me about it, I don't I don't shit on it. But if they do ask me about it, I do not, I do not lie. I in a nicely way say why I didn't like it

and it'll have differing reactions depending on the person but yeah it's never like been so awkward or so terrible it's a part of the job I like I had a weird experience

where I was like I watched a movie that a friend produced and I was like I didn't like it at all but it was like it was like small enough that it was like okay well no one's going to be expecting me to rate this and then uh I was just like okay I'll just like not rate it who cares and then later on stream someone was like oh what did you think they said they saw that movie with you I'm like oh I'm like in public now like sorry I guess I have to rate it now three out of 10 sorry yeah oops but like integrity matters right so if if my whole if everything I'm

selling is like an honest like reflection of my feelings on something that I have to you know I can I can in the nicest way possible give it a three out of 10 no I mean that's your it's your job it's what you're doing you know you have to be honest about and I feel like people who most people especially people who are like making things will understand like yeah if you're friends with a critic and you like yeah just you're going to have to be honest you know don't take shots at me and say I'm like a bad artist or you know but it's like I feel like there's a respectful way to do it yeah it would be like yeah it's just you should quit do more yeah give up um yeah no I mean different it's funny because like

you know obviously talking to you guys we always have frequently have differing opinions and people or you know can we talk about it to talk through and everything but people are so weird, so much on my second channel with an audio when we talk movies because people are just like, how can you disagree with your partner? How can you sit there and

have such a disagreement? Is it only directed at you? Both of us. I was going to say. Of just like, how can she like that film and you not like? And how can you have this conversation? Oh, that's great. And there are people who are nice about it. It's like, oh, it's sweet that you guys can like have a respectful conversation when we, in our opinion,

differ widely way more than I disagree with you guys off. We're way more aligned frequently. Nadia is, you know, she's a, she's a true soldier of cinema. She has her takes that go against the wind frequently. And so I love that about our conversations. And so we're always disagreeing on media all the time. And that's just fun. I mean, you just take it as like a fun thing. It has no bearing whatsoever on our relationship. And a lot of people feel like you have to like all of the same things to be with someone. It's very funny. But so, yeah, that's, I guess that's my example.

It's like, yeah, that's part of the fun of not agreeing at all on anything. It's great. As much as authenticity matters in art itself, authenticity matters in your experience of art and how you communicate it to other people. Totally. And like it would be insane to to suggest or like expect that everyone have the same experience with something, even if it is the dominant experience. That's what I found is people that are so used to like their own experience, whether it's about movies or anything else, their own experience being like the dominant experience. Like they never have to reconcile with other experiences existing.

So like the few times where it does happen, it feels like it attacked to them or like a shattering of their worldview or whatever, right? It's like, maybe just expose yourself to more ideas and more people. Yeah. Yeah, like unanimous agreement is boring. Yeah. Especially when you're talking about art, it's way more interesting to hear like, well, they liked it. They were neutral on it. They were really against it.

I want to hear why. Yeah. It's never like that personal to me. It's more just like it says more about. them as a person. Yeah. And like how they communicate their feelings on it. And it's not like, I don't know, it's not that.

I don't need my partner to agree with me on every single thing like that. It's just not important to me. Also, it's a thing about just like being young. Like I'm sure you guys were also like this too. Like when I was in high school, I was like, this movie is about me. And if you don't like it, you are attacking me. You know, like, I don't know if I've ever felt that. I used to feel like that.

You get super defensive when people would not like a movie that I love. And because it's like you don't know who you are yet. Like you're still figuring out who you are. You don't have a ton of life experience. So you're like this thing that I've attached to is me. So you're attacking me. So it's, yeah, I mean, I think it's just something that changes when you get older. Like, I am Mario and this is my movie.

It's a me, Mario. That's a me in that. move. That's a me. Yeah, no, it speaks, it speaks to, I think that, like, the healthiest people in terms of, like, their relationship with the greater human experience are ones that rather than feeling like there's anything bad about someone else's experience for art would be more curious about why, right? Would look at a differing experience and be like, oh, why did you feel that way?

And then you, not to like, be like, oh, now I have to learn the correct experience. Like, not why so that, like, you can correct your own, but to understand what about them and their experience, or even like the conditions surrounding their experience would influence them to have the perspective that they did. every person is made up of tons of different experiences leading up to that point. Your relationship with certain types of people or jobs or like philosophies are going to greatly impact how you interpret a story. And then on top of that, you're weighting of different aspects of filmmaking, whether it be sound or presentation or acting or casting or script.

Like, depending on which one of those elements are the most valuable to you, you're going to have an entirely different experience. And I find that cool and fascinating. And anyone that's willing to listen to any other person is someone that can learn more about the world around them. Absolutely. Well put. Hell yeah. Yeah. But also Mario movies for babies. Get out of here. Oh, and oh, you're stupid. You're stupid. You're done. Fricent pilot. Oh, my God. Mario. Let's end on this stupid one then from M.S. CVM-E-Y-T if you all three had to combine into one

would you be I-movie thing you're carrying everything man hate sucks this is just the human centipate question again kind of I met squash and flop replied to it with the suggestion of man sucks everything

I feel like it's hard to meet that one Yeah, fuck. There you go. That's the answer. Yeah, it's hot to, you can't beat that. No. It sucks everything. Yeah.

We certainly do. Okay, yeah, sure. That seems like the best answer. Yeah, you can't beat it. Yeah. It's something. Yeah. And it's good to be prepared because this could happen, you know.

Someone could cast a spell and then we're combined as one person. Yeah. Could mutate. Anything could happen. I suck man. Or I suck thing. I suck thing. I suck is a good one in the middle.

Well, it sucks. So I sucks thing. I sucks. Well, when you have your mouth full, it can sound like that. There you go. All right. This was fun, guys. This was a good episode.

World building. who's record is it who was yours i think right it's mine yeah okay well i got someone in mind um uh yeah i guess i can't even justify this uh maybe you can't you can't i remember bringing it up a few months ago um saying that like i want to revisit this film at some point okay i think it's time you know like in the the middle of summer this feels like a stupid summer blockbuster from my childhood. I want to talk about the 1999 The Mummy

Stephen Summers. Okay. Sure, why not? See how that's age? Brendan Frazier. Yeah, okay. There are like a million of these movies, but yeah, let's just do this one.

I might watch the second one. No, this is fine. I remember watching this one and the sequel, like a lot growing up. I think it's going to be like a funny thing. to revisit. Sure there be some age stuff, some funny stuff. This is funny because this is literally

like Nadia's favorite movie. I've been forced to watch this. It's against my will. So, yeah. What I'm going to do right after this recording is tell her and she's going to say Alex is my favorite person because now I get to watch it. Make Jake, watch it again.

All right. This will be a good one. Okay. So you're saying you might also watch the sequel. I might also watch the Mummy Returns, but not the third one with the ice. I will not watch the mummy returns another time ever. Are you going to watch the Scorpion King? I think I've never seen that, so maybe.

I don't know. I don't know. Just watch the one special effects shot. Yeah, yeah, I didn't want to like put a whole like mummy thing on you guys like against your will. Sorry, is the third one? The Tomb of the Dragon Emperor? Is that the third one? I think so. Wow. They had like Yeties in it

or something. Spoiler. Are you going to watch the Tom Cruise the mummy? I watch Lee Cronin's the mummy. Yeah, I was going to say that after. Are you going to watch Xavier Dolan's mommy? Are you going to watch Jessica Chastain or Bryce Dallas Howard? I don't know which one in The Other Mommy.

The Other Mommy? Yeah, the new one. Yeah, yeah. It's the ad for that. Yeah. Are you going to watch Ma? With Octavia Spencer? Mama.

Just Ma. Oh yeah, there's another movie called Mama. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can watch as many movies as you want. Mum-type movies. Yeah. Mother's Day.

Yeah, true. If you don't want to be spoiled for the mummy and potentially the mummy returns, but who knows. Watch them before the next episode. These episodes come out every two weeks. You can listen to them early. by going to sardonicast.com. Sign up for premium.

It's only a few bucks a month or patreon.com slash sardonicast. Or, I'm yawning. Whenever I go through the motions, that happens. Or the fucking thing on YouTube where you click the button and it says join as a member. Okay, you get them early.

If you do that, make sure you check the community tabs because that's where we post the episodes ad free. in a way where you can have it play in the background. Why is it that convoluted? I don't know. Ask YouTube.

They don't allow members-only videos to be auto or to play in the background for some reason. So that's the workaround we're doing. All right. Have a happy mommy. Happy mommy. Happy mommy. Happy mommy. Bye-bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye.