Saturn Returns with Caggie - 1.9 Astrology and world events with Aliza Kelly

Episode Date: May 25, 2020

New York-based astrologer and Stars Like Us podcast host Aliza Kelly joins Caggie this week to unpack her thoughts on how astrology links to global events and politics. Aliza had been predicting a rocky year in 2020 since before the pandemic struck, and talks about how the current positioning of the planets compares to some very tumultuous moments in history. They also discuss what’s in store for you during your Saturn return and the “Aha” moment that awaits you on the other side. This episode contains strong language from the start.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a new podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. The birth chart and astrology I do, really shines in this moment because astrology and understanding the complexities of your birth chart gives so much information about how we feel about things and how we can sort of create safe spaces for ourselves and how we can navigate things, you know, when the infrastructure that we know is not as stable. navigate things, you know, when the infrastructure that we know is not as stable.

Today, I am joined by Elisa Kelly, who is an incredible astrologer and author and host of Stars Like Us podcast. Elisa's assistant got in contact with me actually before Saturn Returns had even come out and discussed me going on her podcast. But once I started looking into her work, I just thought she had to come on this. In this episode, we discuss the current crisis that we are all experiencing and how that measures up in astrology. Elisa draws parallels to other times in history where there has been similar planetary alignment, but as you will hear, 2020 has long been anticipated as an incredibly turbulent time of change. We also discuss Saturn returns and some of the things that you can expect during this transit. Elisa is isolating in New York when we're recording this episode,

so please forgive the traffic in the background. I hope you enjoy listening. How have you found the whole experience? Oh, it's a fucking nightmare. I am miserable. Everything's, you know, I have been anticipating a disastrous 2020 for a really long time. Yeah, because I did notice that, actually, that a lot of stuff that you put up was talking about how an astrology sort of, I guess, in a way, in some capacity, saw it coming. I'd be curious to explore that.

Yeah, we can definitely talk about that. You know, I'm still a young astrologer in the grand scheme of things. And I have been studying 2020 for the majority, really like, you know, the entire time I've been practicing as an astrologer, but really honed in on it about five years ago. And in my lifetime, this is really the first macro prediction that I made that is playing out before my eyes in real time. So I have to say that from my perspective, it's been a little bit of a mindfuck to see sort of, so how literally the planets and the interpretation of those are actually translating in real time. So why was it that you decided to home in on 2020? When you were studying? Well, the astrology of 2020 is superb. And I don't mean superb in a necessarily a positive way. It's extraordinarily rare, a lot of the connections that happened

and will continue to happen this year. Saturn and Pluto, for instance, only connect every 38 years. So from an astrological perspective, we're going to look at those planets and see how they're connecting and know that this marks a 38-year cycle, which is a really big deal. But then in addition to that, we also had Jupiter and Pluto connecting. And now that only happens every 19 years. So that's another really rare cycle. And then we also have Jupiter and Saturn connecting, and that's in every 20-year cycle. So we have like one of those things in a year is a big deal. And just those alone are three in 2020. And then on top of that, we had other things too. You know, we have other things that are making 84 year long cycles.

And when you look at the astrology of this year, we haven't seen such powerful clusters of planets for at least 500 years. And then in this sign, we haven't seen them for thousands of years. And then in this sign, we haven't seen them for thousands of years. So the last time that planets in this sign clustered together was actually at the beginning of Babylon. So it's really like, there's no precedent for what we were going to anticipate in 2020. Well, that was kind of going to be my next question is what sort of changes are we expecting? Or is it completely unprecedented and completely, you know, we just don't know? I mean, I think that what these big planets are saying as they are connecting is they're

talking about the entire infrastructure of our governments and our systems and our traditions and the establishment going through an extraordinary upheaval. So what we're seeing on the macro with this is like the world as we know it, you know, who holds the power is shifting. And how that's shifting, you know, we are kind of watching this get resolved in real time. It's just the beginning. So buckle your seatbelts sort of stuff. Yeah. You know, me saying like 2020 is a fucked up year and it's not going away anytime soon

isn't to try to scare people. It's just a reflection of the truth. You know, my intent of sharing my observations from an astrological perspective is certainly not to try to create, you know, to fear monger or to create mania and to, or to sell a product. You know, it's not like I'm not trying to profit in any capacity off of this information that I'm sharing. I'm hoping that it will provide insight for people that they can actually use that to make thoughtful decisions and become more critically aware and sort of take ownership of their own ability to process data and think about how, you know, who's saying what, but what do you really believe and how is this informing your choices so that we could be all more sort of conscious beings.

Yeah, 100%. There's no part of me that has any inclination to try to get people riled up. I don't think that people make good decisions from fear. Absolutely not. I think people make very bad decisions from fear. So looking at the 2020, astrology is scary. It's always been scary. But this moment is also scary.

You know, um, it's about how do you navigate a scary moment, not predicting whether it's scary or not, you know? Yeah. Well, so how, how do we navigate it? You know, I think that just making sure that we are allowing ourselves to change our mind, that we are maintaining a level of intellectual flexibility, that we're critically thinking, that we are not jumping to conclusions about things as much as possible. We're using science and data and information to make the best and smartest decisions. And then we also are prioritizing, we know how to prioritize issues. Number one issue is that people are sick and dying. Is the government fucked up? Of course. You know, the government has been fucked up. It predates this virus. Are billionaires fucked up? Yes, of course. Like we know these things. This isn't shocking information, but let's just focus on the fact that people are

sick and dying. And that is what we need to make sure we put our attention in. We prioritize. Yeah. For the time being, I think that it's very dangerous to get too caught up in these like extravagant conspiracy theories because they distract from what really the biggest issues are. I'm very worried about cults in the next few years. Interesting. What as a response to this? I was worried about it before I knew that this was going to happen. The astrology of this year and next year in particular are very culty. It's very culty times. are very culty it's very culty times really well so as a sort of response that this I guess in a way makes that gap even bigger between the sort of traditional systems versus the people who think

in a more of an esoteric fashion and social media really is a big facilitator of this because people are forming these communities online based off, I mean, who fucking knows whether this information is accurate, you know? Yes. But when people are in this state and everything's kind of being turned upside down, it can kind of create any sort of truth. Absolutely. Because things are horrifying. We do not have a lot of information. There's a lot of holes in, you know, what we know and it's human inclination to want to make sense of those things and fill in the gaps. I absolutely empathize with the urge to try to take matters into your own hands and like solve things for yourself. I'm a fucking astrologer. Like, of course I understand that.

But at the same time, like we, in a life and death situation, we really need to think about like what is happening in front of us and not to lose sight of what, you know, ironically, to be someone who looks at the stars all day, like what is physically happening right now. As soon as there is a little bit more stability, like sure, we can get weird. Why not? You know, it's not going to hurt anybody.

But right now it is going to hurt people to do that. So it really is about like prioritizing what we're focusing on, not just as an individual, but thinking as a community, thinking as citizens of the world yeah because there's a collective grief that we're experiencing and it's like we're all kind of been being held in detention but we can't object to it sort of feeling like and we know that it's for the greater good but at the same time it's kind of so disruptive and so many things are going to suffer as a consequence but we're kind of having

to remain silent in it and it's just it's causing strange emotions to come out in different ways for different people and I think that's something that really needs to be honored yes I think that the defining this as a collective trauma is I couldn't think of a better way of expressing what is happening for all of us. We're all going to be changed by this in different ways. Whether or not this ends up directly impacting you or your family or your community, just the sheer amount of terror that this is bringing to everybody and uncertainty and financial implications and livelihood and the amount of time we're spending alone. Like nobody knows how to navigate this moment. It's really

weird. And our support system doesn't really exist, I think, in the way that we thought it did. Well, the system that we relied upon that's supposed to know everything, that governs us, that we just obey, seems a little bit confused. Yeah. And that's like a very disruptive feeling because it's kind of like, okay, what is concrete here? Yeah. What can I stand on that has solid ground? And in a way, it just feels like everything's fluid in every capacity. Yes. And right. And we have to sort of set up our own standards and our own systems and our own beliefs and philosophies as to like how to, you know, what is best in this moment. And the truth is, is that it's going to be really different for everybody. really shines in this kind of moment because astrology and understanding the complexities of your birth chart gives so much information as to how one responds to different situations. Oftentimes, we are moving through the world very much as our sun sign, our sort of external self, the way we glow, the way we take up space, or even our mercury, which is the way that we communicate and express our ideas. But now we're like isolating and it's a lot more internal and

it's a lot more reflective. And fortunately, astrology gives us information about how we feel about things and how we can sort of create safe spaces for ourselves and how we can navigate can sort of create safe spaces for ourselves and how we can navigate things when we, you know, when the infrastructure that we know is not as stable. It allows us to find some stability in ourselves. Yeah. And see ourselves and understand ourselves from a different vantage, which I think is really important. And to see that we are these extraordinarily multidimensional people, we are so dimensional. In fact, we have infinite amount of ways that we will behave and respond to things. The birth chart is divided into these 12 different sections known as houses. And the last house, the 12th house, is where we are. I mean, ultimately, it is the isolation space. It is the place where we let our ego die.

It is the last space before we begin a new cycle. It's about mental health. It's about dreams, the subconscious. It's also institutions. It's about our psychology, our secrets, addictions, hidden things. And all of us are in the 12th house right now, sort of tucked away, being secretive. A lot of us are relapsing in addictions. That's not something people are talking about yet, but that's a real thing. It's a real thing. It's a real problem. Yeah. And we don't even have the space yet to hold space for it because we are in a survival state. But I mean, there's going to be a lot of implications from this moment. Mental health and addiction. Yeah. I know I'm concerned

about that. So we can use astrology to see, you know, what is our natal, aka birth, aka sort of innate 12th house look like. And by looking at that 12th house, we can understand, okay, this is what I might default to. This is what I have to keep sort of in check and afloat. And this is how I'm going to best support myself within my mental health right now. So as in for everyone getting their individual birth chart, they can see what is in their 12th house and that will help? Yeah, some people might have planets in there, some people might not, but no matter whether you have planets in there or not, your 12th house is still associated with signs of the zodiac and those signs are going to show you, give you deeper information as to how that plays out in your life.

I mean, I think that there's a lot of incredible opportunities for reflection in this moment. It's hard to see the gifts of this moment because the backdrop is so scary. Let's maybe go into that. So what are going to be the gifts long term? So let's go into that. So what are going to be the gifts long term? And do you have any take on the sort of when this all blows over post 2020? What kind of world it's going to be a new normal. In 2026, the United States is having another really, really crazy year. And we are sort of inching our way towards that as well right now. From the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Pluto, which is the planet of transformation, has never been in the same position before. So we're having, the United States is having a Pluto return, very apropos for your podcast, Saturn's return, this is Pluto return, and takes Pluto 248 years to return. Oh, wow. It's a big one. It's a big one. It's going to be a biggie. So we, I think,

in a lot of ways are sort of like inching towards that now. And what are Pluto returns historically? I mean, it's the fall of Rome or the beginning of the Reformation period is another Pluto return. Big, big, big changes. I mean, the splitting of the Catholic church into Protestantism. I mean, that's fucking crazy. That's what we're talking about. Big things. And so that is really the closest of what this looks like. But then in more recent history, and if we take some of these smaller events that have, you know, I guess some of these smaller orbits and cycles, we have Uranus and Taurus right now. Uranus has an 84-year orbit. So the last time it was in Taurus was in the 1930s, which was obviously here in the United States, the Great

Depression, the Dust Bowl, the end of the gold standard, which I think is really interesting. So currency shifted at that time, as well as obviously a horrible economic downturn. Oh, and prohibition was in that time. And then fascism, of course, we had the Nazi party taking over Europe as well as fascism and growing in Italy with Mussolini. And we had the beginnings of what was becoming sort of the Russia communist state. And then, so that was the last time Uranus was in Taurus. So 84 years ago, the last time that Saturn and Pluto met was 38 years ago. And that was in the beginning of the 1980s. What I think is really interesting with that is that we had Reagan as the president during

that time. And this was the beginning of AIDS. First of all, this was like the beginning of us sort of culturally understanding the implications of that. So we have another virus that comes around during that time. But then on top of that, we also have sort of the beginning of this neoconservatism Republican Party that we really identify with the Republican spirit now, which is that sort of Reaganomics trickle down. Wall Street became sort of the concept that it is today. So a lot of the systems of like how wealth was managed, how people interact with money, how people interact with their government,

how we think about different politicians was established at that time. Then we also have the beginning of Saturn and Jupiter cycles. So that is a 20 year cycle. The last time that happened was 2000. So that was when Bush was elected. So that was a really big changing of the guard and shifting of power. Also post Clinton impeachment of starting to see the fracture even come back more of like the two party system. And then most recently, I would say we had Jupiter and Capricorn in 2008, which was the last financial crisis. So just, you know, when we look at like all of these different

and Obama was elected in 2008. So like that's something else there. You know, it's interesting because at least in the United States, a lot of these cycles correspond with the political cycles. And there are no coincidences. You know, that's fascinating to me. So certainly a lot of the way that I'm thinking about this is through politics. But the reason is because there's not really anything larger than politics on a macrocosm i was going to say perhaps it's more that on a macro scale that that's the thing exactly like if it was it doesn't have to be politics but politics is a very good way of being able to understand how sort of the collective consciousness is being shaped and what we're reacting to and measure the parallels in history between the astrology and that, because there's such marking points in our existence, really. Yes.

So it's fair to say that we can anticipate huge shifts politically. Yes. You know, I think it's fascinating the way the astrology looks in the fall of this year. I think it's possible there won't be an election. How does the astrology look in the coming months? Um, well, let's just say that we have a lot of retrogrades happening in the fall. Yeah. Aren't there, aren't there three going on right now? We just got, Venus just went retrograde, um, yesterday. Mars went into Pisces yesterday as well.

You know, I was joking with someone the other day and they were like, wow, you never stop working. And I was like, the planet's never fucking stop moving. I don't like, I do not get a break. I have to carve myself a break. But 2020 is definitely not the year to take a break because it's just like, the shit just keeps going. So for people listening, how, could you like break down not the year to take a break because it's just like the shit just keeps going.

So for people listening, how could you break down what it sort of means and how to interpret when a planet goes into retrograde? Yeah. So I think that when we hear the word retrograde, we immediately think Mercury because Mercury goes into retrograde very often. And we know that when Mercury goes into retrograde, it's like we accidentally reply all instead of just replying to one. And like we sexed our boss and like everything is a disaster. And that's all very true. But that's kind of the nature of like

how Mercury in particular would go retrograde. Mercury is very communication messenger and he's very tricky. And he, you know, when he sort of like derails, it ends up in like, it's like a sitcom, but that's not how all planets go retrograde. For Venus, for instance, which just started her retrograde, the Venus retrograde corresponds with an 18 month cycle of her transformation. So it's during her retrograde that she pivots from an evening star to a morning star, which means that she starts following the sun and then ends up leading the sun. So this retrograde is not so much about like wacky things

as opposed to like we are in a transitional period between one behavior one way of interacting and the other so the reason that this retrograde if it does cause any sort of like mishaps is more because we are in limbo as opposed to it because mercury is like making us frenetic. Okay. So can you apply that? Because obviously Venus rules love. So is it going to affect people romantically or how can they kind of navigate that? Yeah. I think that what we can expect with Venus retrograde romantically is that the way that we are currently interacting with our relationships or our lack of relationships or however we see ourselves in relation to love is going to go through a transformation. That transformation in this Venus retrograde, the sort of epicenter of that takes place on June 3rd when the sun and Venus

meet and that's when Venus switches where she is and her energy. So we're going from more of a state of like wisdom and, you know, like trying to sort of find stability and make sure things are like understanding. We go from sort of a wiser, more mature Venus to a much more spontaneous, erratic, like spontaneous, erratic, like aggressive Venus energy. And that is a transformation that depending on the structure of how your life looks, you might see yourself interacting with people differently. You might see yourself having more fights in your relationship because you're advocating for things that you would not have previously, or you are being more assertive and usually you're more chill, or maybe your partner's being more assertive and that freaks you out, or you start to hit people up from the past because maybe it was in the past when you were behaving more aggressively that you were talking to those

people in the first place. So it's like you're finding yourself reconnecting with versions of your life that align with this current transformation cycle. Wow. So you can say perhaps it'd be an okay time to revisit something if it feels right to do so. I would be very wary. I, in general, I, with very, very few exceptions exceptions encourage people to not me to revisit relationships I'm like I'm having to tell I think especially at the moment because a lot of people are in this isolation they may have newly come out of a relationship and I can sense with the messaging and stuff that they're like I don't know what to do I don't know how to sit in this discomfort when I don't know the end date and I don't know what's on the other side so they're going backwards and I'm just like don't go back in the ring for

another round just don't yeah I mean especially right now like I'm trying to even um pull back a little of my you know because usually I'm like fuck no we're going forward the planets like even when they are going retrograde, it's just an illusion. Planets never go backwards. We're always moving forwards. We always want to keep forward. I understand that it's very hard to do that right now. It feels very difficult because we are, like, getting older every fucking day, but we're not seeing anything change, you know?

It's very scary. anything changed, you know, it's very scary. I have found myself like reminiscing about things when I was like, like going out to clubs when I was 20. And I'm like, why? Like, that's not me. Like, I would not want to do that right now, but I'm going back into like the recesses of who I am because I'm latching onto any memories that I can, even if they're shitty ones. So I understand that it's very likely a lot of us are going to start texting our exes again and stuff. We have to just understand that that is between Venus retrograde and fucking quarantine. It's like, yeah, we're only human, but that doesn't mean you can't do something. And then also recognize that it's very conditional, you know? I think that's good advice and also so

I wanted to like get in on this a little bit but in terms of people that are experiencing their Saturn return or about to what are your sort of thoughts on how best to navigate it because obviously it has like a bit of a reputation as I mean I was speaking with an astrologer the other day and she was like I mean it felt like I was just cooped up and I didn't want to come out. And it was just this like horrible experience. And some people interpret it like that because it brings about a lot of change, a lot of discipline, like boundaries. And it's, if you haven't been exercising those qualities in your, in your twenties, it can feel hugely uncomfortable. But what is your sort of take on navigating that space? Well, I think that's right. I mean, I think that if you haven't been exposed to Saturn prior to

your Saturn return, you're going to have a hard Saturn return. There's not really any way around it. The metaphor that I use is basically when you're born, your parents or, you know, your guardians, your society brings you this toolbox that they have already prepared for you prior to your arrival. Let's say your toolbox has like a piece of sticky gum in it and a measuring tape and, you know, like glue. Then your whole life you have been navigating with these things. You know, like you've been fixing every problem with the measuring tape and the gum and the glue. And like for some people, that's been fine. You know, that's all they've needed. For other people who have had challenges throughout their 20s or in their life in general, not even just in their 20s,

they've already come to realize that that's a very, that they need more in their toolbox than just those three objects. So then Saturn return comes through and it's like, okay, I got you. I got you hooked up with a power tool and a drill and you have a wrench now, like here you go. So for those people who have been facing very difficult circumstances, they're like, oh, thank God, finally I can like fix the issues that I've been dealing with my whole life. But for those people who have been like, I'm chill with like, you know, putting a piece of gum up to fix things. Suddenly Saturn is like, guess what? You need to learn how to use a power tool. And they're like, I do not know why would I need to use this? And it's like, oh, look, it's because your house fell down.

Surprise. So it's really about like exposure, I would say, before your Saturn return is going to be what indicates like how miserable your Saturn return is going to be. At the end of the day, Saturn return leaves you in an amazing position because you have this fancy-ass toolbox and you can, like, solve your own problems and you don't need to call your shitty dad anymore to do it. Like, you can just do it all yourself. So I think that Saturn return, you know, at the end of it, everyone feels a sense of autonomy and accomplishment. Yeah, I think everyone feels really like they can take on the world post-Sat But certainly if you've never had any problems before and then you're like your house is falling down and you have to learn how to use a power tool like it's going to suck. I definitely was sort of cruising by on the tools, as it were, that I had.

And then it did hit me. But coming out the other side of it, I'm like, that was the best couple of years in hindsight. Because I learned so much in like quick-fire time. You know, it was just like lesson, lesson, lesson, teacher, teacher, teacher. Like pain, work through it. And it was just a bit of a whirlwind and a bit, yeah, a bit of a tricky thing but then on the other side of it I'm like ah it's kind of amazing and I think a lot of my audience are on the younger side of 20s and I think they're kind of like anticipating some of the transitional themes already because obviously we also have like our satin squares so it's not

to say that this is just like prescriptive to these years. Do you think just having the awareness about those shifts and that they're coming helps in terms of being prepared? Of course. But I think that ultimately, you know, like I have, I love my clients in their like early mid twenties, right on the precipice of Saturn return, because they're like, they know about Saturn return. They know thatice of Saturn return because they're like, they know about Saturn return. They know that something is coming, but they're like, am I okay? Like, I like my relationship. I like my job. Like, is this all going to get fucked? And it's like, probably. Like, it probably is, you know, and it's going to be okay. You know, like, you know, you're going

to be okay on the other side. I was an astrologer before my Saturn return. So I also thought that I was going to be, you know, I'm Saturn ruled. I'm a Capricorn rising. I'm an astrologer. I know all about. I also had a fucking hard life. So I thought that I was going to be like, easy peasy. But as Saturn return does, it goes into those areas where you still have a lot of work to do.

And it's like, well, you still have a lot of work to do and it's like, well, you got this to figure out. And my Saturn return is going to look different from your Saturn return, looks different from everyone's Saturn return. It's very personal. It's very personal. So in that sense, actually, there's no real way of trying to anticipate. And in fact, it's probably a waste of energy because like if that relationship you're in you start thinking well with this will this survive it if it's not going to it's not supposed to and I think that that's the most important thing to take away it's like it will shed that from your life which isn't supposed to be brought into your adult life like that it's not nasty but it's just your 20s are kind of like fluid and like things take a bit more time and you're kind of like oh was that

person right for me I don't know whereas this is just makes it quite clear as day it's just like yeah bam that's not happening that's not coming with you get rid yeah exactly Lemonade the Beyonce album came out before my Saturn return I remember there was this line there's lyric in it where she's where Saint Beyonce says like anything that's real cannot be broken. And that really did become a mantra of mine as I navigated those end of my 20s into my Saturn return. Because anytime something would fall apart, I'd be like, it couldn't have been real. If something fell apart and even if it seemed like it was totally in the bag and I wanted it so badly and it should have worked out, if it doesn't work out, it means it was not supposed to happen. It was never real in the first place.

I lean heavily into that because as a self-employed, creative astrologer, not everything that I want to happen, even for me is going to happen. You know, I'll start projects that don't end up panning out, especially now so many of us have lost projects in this moment where business has slowed so significantly. And I remind myself that like, even if we went very far on the negotiations of something, like if it didn't work out at the end, it was never going to work out in the first place. And I think in your 20s, that's a really hard thing to accept. But on the other side of the Saturn return, it's much easier to acknowledge that that's the truth, you know? Because you have the blessing of hindsight to look back and be like, pretty glad that didn't come with me, actually.

Totally. Whereas like, I look back at some of the people that I was with in my twenties, that I was just so attached to, to that narrative and to that person and was so sure. And looking back and realizing that who they are now and who I am now, I'm like, wow, you don't know as much as you think, you know, in your twenties, basically. Yeah. I, I would never, ever, ever trade my 20s. I never go back. I, I only just turned 30 last year. And by the time when I turned 30, I was like, oh my fucking God, finally. Yeah. Because in those last, in that like last like 28 and a half to 29, it's like, oh, I, I'm so

exhausted by this. Um, and already I'm, I feel like the 30s, you know, obviously my first year into my 30s, there's a pandemic. So like that's heavy, chill. But so far, at least on an emotional level, I feel like it's just so on the other side of the Saturn return, things just get a lot. You just feel a lot more confident. I completely agree. I feel so much more confident. And it's strange because the anticipation building up to it is so intense the pressure is so there's so much pressure that we put on ourselves and I

think that's you know there's there's the astrological angle and then there's also just the societal expectations and then suddenly when you hit it you're like ah and breathe yeah I I remind my clients this all the time and I think that it's worth mentioning here is that like, I know that we live in this like Forbes 30 under 30 culture where we think that we're supposed to, you know, have everything resolved before we turn 30. And that having success post 30 means mediocrity and means like you have a boring life, but that's just not true. It's not true in the way that astrology is structured and it's not true in the way that a life is supposed to be structured. Career and success and, you know, both professionally and romantically is something we build. You know, it's something we scale upon. It's an amalgamation of experience. It's not like a single job. So I think that, you know, we can, as much as we can like support our friends who have done amazing work before they turn 30,

that has nothing to do with whether or not someone is going to one, be able to maintain it. And then two, whether someone else is going to be able to have extraordinary success in their life past 30. I think that is so important for people to hear because it's not linear either. We're not all on the same trajectory and what's going to be your experience and what's going to be mine are going to look totally different. And it's, you don't know how long, like one part of it's going to last and be successful. And then you're going to go through another experience and have another challenge. Like, I think people, if they take away anything from this conversation, it's just take the pressure off yourself.

Because I definitely put so much pressure on myself. And I made myself really fucking unhappy in my late 20s because it felt like I was approaching that final chapter thinking I had to figure everything out. And I just didn't have the time to do it. And I still haven't figured everything out. But I don't care. time to do it and I still haven't figured everything out but I don't care now I'm like yeah right because it just takes time it takes time yeah I remember I think that it was in my I think I was about 27 or 28 and I was starting to feel that extraordinary

this like dark depression of like wow I only have like three years before I turned 30. It was like the countdown to 30 and nothing is working out. Like everything that I thought I could rely on is falling apart. Nothing is stable. Like I don't have the lifestyle that I anticipated having. And like, I'm just, I'm done. Like I'm fucked. Like that's it. And it's, and you know, I think that for me, at least my Saturn return, a lot of it was sort of like accepting that rock bottom was actually not rock bottom at all. It was just a frame of mind. But I think that, yeah, but I also had a 12th house Saturn return. So I think that for me, it was a lot of the journey was in sort of like recognizing that there was still so much more time to evolve and grow. It's so I can't even relate to myself from just a few years ago, putting so much pressure on having everything done, like and how lame that would be. Because I'm hoping that I can live a long life.

Like, imagine if everything got resolved at fucking 27, then like, what are you going to do for the rest of your life? I love that idea of rock bottom being a state of mind. So in that, you basically mean that it's a matter of perspective. And like, because I definitely felt exactly the same for my own reasons. But so you're saying like now you could

have the same experiences, but yet be like, I'm just learning here. Yeah. I mean, I think that I highly recommend the Saturn return for anyone who hasn't gone through it yet. You're in for a wild ride, but also you're in for a major treat at the end of the day, because it just, it really just helps, I think, someone find their own voice. 100%. And like you said, through those messy experiences, like you said, you wouldn't change your 20s for anything, like I wouldn't, because all those experiences gave me the knowledge and the understanding of who I am now. Like, you only find out who you are by being someone you're not. Yes. And you also find out who you are and you find out things in time that you could not resolve in that moment. For instance, great example,

I think I was like 24 and I had just moved to LA and this dude that I was seeing, like was just, it felt like he was so uninterested in me. And I just, it was really, like, at the time, it felt very painful and very heartbreaking. And only in time did I realize that he only dates girls who are 18. And I didn't know that at the time because I was still like in my own perspective. Right. Like I couldn't see that it wasn't me. He's the pervert, you know, because he keeps getting older and he's still dating girls who are only that age forever. But I wouldn't have been able to know that then.

So it's like through time you also get information, you know, you get knowledge that you could not have in that moment and I feel like Saturn return is when you finally have enough like vantage to see out and be like oh I understand this wasn't personal this was about other shit that has nothing to do with me 100% also you make the decisions based on the awareness and like how evolved you are at that time. Don't beat yourself up for where you were five years ago, the decision you made. Like everything is constantly fluid and moving. So just be accepting of that and of your former self and not like attack her basically. Yes, which is also I feel like just sort of closing the loop

on this conversation like that's I think the best way to navigate this moment too is to realize that like everything is constantly changing like we might learn something tomorrow that totally shifts our understanding of what's happening in the world right now and that is to be expected and that's okay. Like the most important thing is for us to approach ourselves and this moment with this compassionate curiosity to maintain our empathy, to maintain our sensitivity, to always put, you know, people's health first, but to know that like, as new information continues to come to light, we might change our minds. And that's okay. That's part of life is the ability to be flexible and the ability to like take in new information and readapt. I think that's a perfect thing to close on. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for talking.

Thank you so much. I love this conversation and I think people are going to love hearing about it. I found this conversation with Elisa fascinating and actually some of the things she discussed like quite mind blowing. And especially this idea that, you know, there's this dissolution of our infrastructure and how we can actually use our own personal birth charts to help navigate this current time so I would suggest if you haven't ever looked into a birth chart that perhaps you might investigate that a little bit and I think especially this idea that we're all sitting in the 12th house I found very fascinating I also love the idea about you know how we're all experiencing this collective grief, but it also is an incredibly individual experience. And how our sun sign is something that is the part of ourselves that we represent in the world when we're going out into the world. But how this time is causing us to look into different aspects and nurture different aspects of ourselves because we are so alone and isolated.

And I know we cover, like, some quite controversial topics in a way, so I think, you know, make what you will of that and take it all with a pinch of salt. But I found it very interesting to look at those parallels in history and just this idea of this, like, huge shift that we're experiencing that I think on whatever you know a macro or micro scale we all are feeling something so yeah I found it very um interesting to talk to her about that kind of stuff so I hope it was thought-provoking for you too. I hope you enjoyed and learned

something from today's episode you can find Elisa on Instagram at Elisa Kelly or me at Kagi's World. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Varrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. If you did enjoy the podcast, I'd love it if you could share it with someone who you think might find it useful. Until next time, thank you so much for listening and remember, you're not alone. Goodbye.