Saturn Returns with Caggie - 2.13 Astrology and Love: Noura Bourni

Episode Date: December 28, 2020

Noura Bourni has been Caggie's personal spirit guide throughout her own Saturn Returns journey, and is the resident astrologer for the second series of Saturn Returns. In this special episode they discuss how astrology plays a part in our love lives, and how certain placements can affect our judgement and influence our decisions when it comes to matters of the heart. They also discuss how to evoke the wild feminine within, exploring the complex energy associated with the goddess Kali.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Well, Venus is also a very romantic planet. It's just that I think the difference between Neptune and Venus is that with Venus, the idea of love is very clear. You just know what you want in love you know what you expect and you can be really giving you can be really abundant and feminine in the way that you express love and you give love. Astrology and love. Many of you have got to know Nora, our resident astrologer for Saturn Returns,

over the last season and I'm very excited that she is going to be joining me on this special episode. We discuss how certain placements affect our romantic relationships, particularly looking at Neptunian fogs and how Neptune plays a huge influence on the way we see romance. and how Neptune plays a huge influence on the way we see romance. We also discuss sexuality and how to reclaim those aspects of ourselves and go into the potent power of the goddess Kali. Goddess Kali is a goddess of destruction and rebirth, and she's someone that's been on my mind recently for whatever reason. So it was very fascinating to hear Nora's insight and

explain a bit about the Goddess Kali and how we can start to embody this energy in a day-to-day life. Nora, how are you doing? I'm well, thank you. How are you? I'm very good. I feel like we've been on quite a ride the last couple of months, haven we? We have it's been amazing though I've enjoyed it. Both in your overview of the astrological transits that we've navigated through each episode and in my own personal life which is pretty much how we met as well. That is true. Should we talk about how we met actually for a minute? We just started speaking over Instagram, didn't we? I got in a relationship and as I was getting into the relationship and I thought I was so in love and it was, and I was, I was at the time. Yeah. Well, we were talking about that Neptune transit that was going on. And I remember telling

you, this is a really good time to increase in spirituality, to connect with your inner self, to do journaling, to express your arts. It's going to be a really good time in that, but you'll also have rose tinted glasses on in relationships and you might not see the person truly for who they are. And I didn't listen. And you were like, oh, I just met somebody.

And I thought, oh, well, maybe he is a soulmate. I don't listen. And you were like, oh, I just met somebody. And I thought, oh, well, maybe he is a soulmate. I don't know. I know. We really went into it, didn't we? And I was like, it's the one. La, la, la. And then when it all did come crashing down, which was very much to do with my Saturn return as well,

that was all very connected. And it was literally like suddenly the the reality was shown and you messaged me I think I'd put up some poetry or something miserable and you said oh my dear was it a Neptunian fog that's what you said and I said I don't know what that means, but I think so. That's exactly what people feel like after like a Neptune relationship. They'll feel exactly like that. They don't know where the wound is coming from. They don't know where they're bleeding from, but it's definitely hurting a lot and it's not clear. So just to go into that for the listener, could you explain like what a Neptunian fog or like romance might look like and how they'd know if they were experiencing that?

Okay. So when you're going through a Neptune transit, the planet Neptune will be aspecting either your Venus or your moon sign, or it will be in your seventh house. So now in the past few years, this will have been especially applicable if you are a Pisces, Moon or Venus, or you have Pisces in your descendant, or if you're a Virgo, a Sagittarius or a Gemini. So if you're in these signs, Neptune will have made a strong aspect on your love planets or your love language and the way that you see things in love. And the way that it feels is that you're very romantic at this time, even if you're generally quite skeptical or quite grounded, this time you're feeling more floaty and you're attracting interesting people into your life. Some of them do end up being soulmates, but it's just that in the beginning, it feels like you're not only falling head over heels in love, but you're feeling like you're

really in the clouds and it's feeling amazing. And it's feeling like no love ever has felt before. And so you go on and tell everybody, yes, I've met one and this is it. And he's, I think I might even have dreamt about him before I met him. And it's this huge thing where you have this instant connection, but you have to be careful when this happens because the only way to really tell is obviously what her mom always tells us

is you have to give it time and you have to go through a few stress tests. A stress test would be Saturn, right? It would be like a dose of reality. It would be somebody goes to travel or somebody suddenly talks about who they want to be or which direction they want to go in the future. Or they suddenly come up and say, look, I don't want to have kids. This is not something that I want to do. And so this person that seemed ideal and you were connected from

day one and seemed to be wanting the same things now suddenly is actually not who you thought they were because you assumed all of that that was all fantasy you projected your own fantasy onto them and they did the same onto you so you're kind of both feeding into that fantasy and you're in that world and it's perfect and then the bubble bursts because saturn comes in or some kind of event happens. Or you actually see them for who they truly are. And that might be that they were quite just deceptive in nature. So when that stress test comes in where they show who they truly are by just saying who they are and you realize that that's not who you want, or they just show who they are with actions,

which often translates into cheating or it turns out that they'd had addictions and they don't want to do anything about it and you didn't see that either so I basically experienced everything you just said but the thing is as much as like for all the advice you could give on it I know that anyone listening that's going through it, it doesn't matter because when you're in that space, you're in that space and nothing can pull you out of it until that reality or that Saturn or whatever comes and forces you out and forces you to see. But you're going to have to go through it i think exactly and it's this love bite that's it you've been bitten like i had an astrologist even tell me once if you have a neptune transit or just a neptune aspect in your synastry with somebody so just to tell the listener a synastry aspect is when you put two natal charts together and you look at how they interact with each other you look at the dynamics and obviously we all have Neptune in our natal charts and so if Neptune is

aspecting our love planets or our love houses in our natal charts then that's a Neptune aspect which will be sort of deceiving yeah it can be deceiving it's just also sometimes a person is just who they are and they've been telling you since day one and you don't want to see it. That happens too, where you're just projecting your fantasy onto this person and you say, well, that's not that bad. Oh no, I don't mind it at all.

And you go into the self-delusion and this person sometimes even feels like they're put on this pedestal and they feel like it's only going to fail. So they just keep on projecting that fantasy onto they feel like it's only going to fail so they just keep on projecting that fantasy onto you and feeding it into the narrative but eventually they'll self-sabotage yeah because they can't keep it up not a fun one to experience but a necessary one a necessary one like i said i had this astrologist that told me if you see that in a chart don't even

go and meet a person really don't even go on a date yeah that told me, if you see that in a chart, don't even go and meet a person. Really? Don't even go on a date. Yeah, he told me that because I had that with somebody and I thought, no way. You said to me the other day with my situation, you know, when you're bleeding and you don't know where it's from. Yeah. I really can relate to that. can relate to that I think anyone can relate to that that thing of when you get involved with something that essentially you know is probably bad for you but you just you feel like it's perhaps going to be a different the second time around well if it feels addictive on any level then

it's probably an apt in an apt in aspect that's a good way to recognize it too okay so let's just break down that part because historically and through film and media we are we romanticize that sort of addictive love I know that I did and I think a lot of my relationships most of my relationships were based off that sort of initial intensity that I confused for intimacy. And it was like, you know, the more I felt, the faster I felt it, the more I thought that meant that that person was my person and that we were in love. And so I was basing the feelings that I had before really knowing the person as the foundation for the future,

which of course, like you say, it's like, well, you really don't know each other. It's just all chemical and lustful and all those wonderfully delicious things. But I've had a lot of people say recently, and it's something that, you know know has my curiosity as to whether those things should be red flags or is there like a middle ground? I think if you feel that in the beginning of the relationship it is a red flag because you're projecting a fantasy and that's not based in reality or rooted in reality. Now if you're just so lucky and this person does end up being this fairy tale prince or princess charming, then that's brilliant. But that doesn't happen that often because the test during these times is to see those red flags, recognize them, and then bring them to reality, rooted into reality, and then give it time and see how it kind of evolves. give it time and see how it kind of evolves, communicates, be really clear about who you are,

what you expect, and make sure that they communicate to you as well and explaining who they are and what they expect in a relationship. And that you're not just both assuming on each end and romanticizing this idea. Because it's interesting that you mentioned the cinema and what we've been taught our whole lives with fairy tales and movies and things in astrology Neptune rules movies really all right well Venus does on the on the lower level but the higher level of it is Neptune that glamour that idea that Hollywood idea that we all witnessed our whole lives and also the fairy tales so it's kind of a personification of this narrative that's so interesting yeah so it is what are the sort of placements that someone should look for in terms of a partner then the ones that aren't red flags

or alarm bells and you shouldn't even go near them okay so the best way to understand the red flag is just to look within yourself because you're the one projecting the fantasy so now the question is who is more prone to project these fantasies into your relationship right so if you have these placements then you're more prone to this type of relationship and that is if you have Neptune in your first house or your seventh house, so in your ascendant or your descendant, if you have Neptune making a hard aspect on your Venus sign or your moon sign,

then that's a big giveaway. And then also if you're somebody who is either a Pisces or a Virgo, I notice a lot of, if you have a Pisces moon, sun, or Venus, or just the Pisces ascendant, or Virgo, I notice that this is a placement that looks to save or be saved, or really likes the idea of a fairy tale.

Like growing up, they really liked fairy tales. They really liked movies. They really liked this romanticized idea of what love should be that is not rooted at all in like Capricorn, which is Saturn. It's very different. Well, I've got that Pisces moon placement. So that's my emotional sort of dream side. Yeah. And I even think you have, um, you have a Neptune making, um, an aspect it's making a soft aspect to your Venusus and your sun so it shouldn't be that bad which is maybe also why you can snap out of it relatively quickly i don't think i can

but you haven't been attracting that anymore though you haven't since the last one you've gone on to a different dynamic now that's true although i feel like I'm being tested. I'm also twice ruled by Venus, aren't I? Yeah. Well, Venus is also a very romantic planet. It's just that I think the difference between Neptune and Venus is that with Venus, the idea of love is very clear. You just know what you want in love. You know what you expect. And you can be really giving.

You can be really abundant and feminine in the way that you express love and you give love. You're kind of that empress tarot card, you know, and that is kind of what Venus is. She's that beautiful woman inside out that is quite abundant, that loves art, that is always in love with love, that always wanted to marry, always wanted to settle down with somebody. That's just that energy. And it's a beautiful energy. It's a down with somebody. That's just that energy. And it's a beautiful energy. It's a very feminine energy. It's just that when it mixes with Neptune, it kind of goes to the next level. It can be unhealthy if you don't have a solid grasp on yourself, especially on your mind. How does Saturn affect relationships?

So if somebody has a strong Saturn in their chart, generally, what they look for in a relationship is for somebody committed, solid, who knows what they want. And often it translates even into somebody who's older, just because of what Saturn represents. He represents time and the father. So also people who tend to have this tendency to look for their father in a relationship. I mean, we all do that to some degree, consciously or otherwise. I know, but people have a strong Saturn. People have a strong Saturn doing more. I can say that because I have that.

So I kind of like recognize it. They look for that in their relationship. And also generally how these relationships go though, is that they won't work unless you're 28 and over until you've gone through your own Saturn return. So if you have a strong Saturn in your chart, if you have a Venus in Capricorn, or if you're from the generation that has Saturn and Libra, or if you are like a Capricorn moon or have a Saturn aspect on your Venus or your moon, then generally it's not recommended that you even settle down with anybody until the age of 28 after your Saturn return. And that you make it a point to work on your self-esteem,

work on your own sense of self-worth, and that you figure out what you want in a relationship, that you set proper boundaries. Because what Saturn looks like in a relationship is just that there is a theme of boundaries, but there's also a theme of coldness. If one of the parties just isn't very genuine about what they want and need, they can remain in a relationship for a long time, even when it's not emotionally fulfilling, even when there's a coldness in the relationship. A positive expression of a Saturn relationship is that you're both really committed and that you're willing to work through the obstacles, that you're willing to work together through any kind of difficulties that life throws at you. It's a very realistic relationship. It's not trying to

project any fantasy onto the other. As a matter of fact, it can be brutally honest in that you see every flaw in the other. And so it's also a kind of relationship where you both improve as you work on yourselves and become better people generally. So it's kind a kind of relationship where you both improve as you work on yourselves and become better people generally. So it's kind of that diamond in the rough and you keep polishing it up, polishing it up until it's just this beautiful shining diamond. romantic and you idealize things, it can be beneficial to be with somebody who's really grounded, really serious, really ambitious, and just wants to marry once and wait for life and that's it. And once that kind of institution, it can be good because you can loosen them up, but you yourself can then also come back to reality and live out your dream while being awake, like working for it and really building it but the reason why it's

best to wait until the age of 28 or 30 if you have a prominent Saturn is so that you can learn to love yourself before you even go into relationship. Is that why so many relationships fall apart during Saturn return? Yeah because you tend to just go with what society expects from you before your Saturn return if you have a prominent, because you have that kind of boundary between your heart and your mind. And that boundary in itself is not serving you. It's not serving you in the long term and it's not serving you in relationships. And so by the time that Saturn comes in, it's kind of bringing attention to this boundary. Whether you make the choice yourself or the choice is made for you, you're

definitely going to be tested during that time could you give some examples of the ways in which it will test you rather than you making that decision yourself if that makes sense yeah if um if it's a saturn relationship as in like you prominent in saturn in your charts during a saturn return if it's with the wrong person, it's just not authentic to you. The person will leave. There will be a coldness. The person will just kind of go. It will be very,

you can't miss it. Yeah, you can't miss it. It's not like Neptune. It's kind of like this. Washi, washi, washi, yeah. You go back and forth and it's addictive. No, it's not romantic at all. It feels very harsh.

Like guillotine. Yeah, exactly exactly exactly like that that's what I experienced I was like that was full on but I have I have a lot of friends you know that have just gone through similar things and relationships just that they thought on a level were fantastic just vanished before their eyes. The person just vanished, literally. Yeah. And I think it can be quite unsettling for the individual to experience.

It's very hard. And also, gosh, there's so much to unpack here. Because if you have a prominent Saturn chart, then you probably also have this strain on your mind. You're very hard on yourself anyway. Generally by nature, you're very dutiful and bound to commitments, but also, and then you sacrifice your own needs for that,

which is not healthy. And that in itself will take a toll on your mental health. So let's say this is a life you've been living and then comes age 28, the divorce comes in or the person leaves it's it is a really interesting time for relationships for sure yeah and it's also an opportunity i think to really completely reprogram and re-establish what you want in a partnership yeah because people for example will stay in a relationship where they've maybe orgasmed twice, you know, up until the Saturn return, they will. And they'll just think this is sex. This is how it is. This is how it's meant to be. This is, we've never really spoken

about sex growing up, or I haven't really been exposed to that or, or just a feminine aspect of it all. And that also feels like Saturn because it feels like the lower vibration of Saturn, where we can repressing ourselves and putting this boundary on ourselves on our on our own needs and our sexuality and also just what we need in a relationship let's unpack that for a second so building up to one's Saturn return and it is also just a thing within society that I have been talking about quite a lot and that you have as well that this theme of women not really taking much ownership over their own sexual desires and wants and needs and not even bringing them into their relationship or asking for it and it's just something that I guess you know because sex is so

sold and taught through the male gaze which which is silly as well, because it's quite straightforward for a man. Whereas for a woman, you need a manual. You need skills. And it's very, it's very psychological. It's very about, well, I can't speak for all women, but about safety and all this sort of stuff. Whereas men, it's essentially like they're trying not to rather than trying to most of the time. Yeah, exactly. No, but it's true. That's how they're wired. So they shouldn't have a say that much in like how a woman should experience pleasure, really.

So how does one change that conversation, especially if this is an opportunity during this transit to start having those conversations in a relationship or you know newly out of one whatever it might be because it's it's an it's a complex thing to unpack because it's so within our psyche that that I'm conditioned that that's how we should behave and that's what we should accept really it goes back again to who you are so if you're an astrologist i would just look at somebody's chart and see where all the planets are placed and see how they've contributed to hypersexuality or just none of it so how do you start the conversation is to look back at yourself and at your own wounds related to sexuality but also related to like you said safety because that is kind of related to the, but also related to, like you said, safety, because that is kind of related to the root chakras, how, how safe you feel, how grounded you feel, how expressive you

feel that is related to the sacral chakra, how creative you feel. And so just unpacking that for yourself, how safe you feel in a relationship, how safe you feel within your sexuality, how easily can you express your creativity? how easily can you express your sexuality. All of these things, all the unblocking of what I mentioned is what's going to bring forward the conversation of sexuality in your own life. What we would need to do is focus more on sexuality in our own life, in own experience and if everybody did that then this would not even be a conversation that we need to have because it would just be it would be normalized it would be completely normalized and like this idea of society is also very it's

very patriarchal because that is also related to sat and this is also I guess the conversation that you're that one would bring around the Saturn return but just this idea of society the fact that we have to think about that and with something that is so intimate that is related to ourselves that is related to our own vulnerability our own pleasure the fact that we even need to voice that to society it's taking the power away from the individual yeah because it's it's sort of paradoxical in the sense that you know sex is a lot more normalized in people having multiple partners and like sex as a conversation isn't necessarily taboo but in terms of actually communicating your wants and needs within that

space is so it's this like real disconnect because people and women are having sex a lot more freely and for lack of better word in a more masculine way perhaps but I don't think they're necessarily getting pleasure out of it no I don't think people are having better sex I don't think no it's actually probably less connected and more based off you know pornography and everything like that so it's not actually it's not actually a practice that's healthy spiritually or emotionally yeah so that's why I emphasize this idea of maybe just taking it back to, A, first of all, I think we could integrate it better into our education growing up, making sexuality a bigger topic,

providing better literature, representing the feminine more, maybe in education, normalizing that. That would be great. But I think that's generally, we should, once we are of age, which is exactly what happens around your Saturn return, explore that for yourself and bring that to the front

and really unpack that for yourself. What does sexuality mean to you? What do you like in sex? What don't you like? What gender do you identify as? What was your first sexual experience like? That's why I think it's maybe difficult to bring it into society because we experience it all so differently.

And there's so much history. Yeah. So I think it's maybe difficult to bring it into society because we experience it all so differently. And there's so much history. Yeah. So I think self-work, that's the thing with Saturn, is that it's bringing you the opportunity to work on yourself. And really nobody's involved in that except for you, which is why having this relationship before you Saturn return, if by nature you quite Saturnian, is maybe not the healthiest thing because you haven't spent that time with yourself and sexuality being the very

first one we should be an authority on we should know exactly what we want sexually what we like you know like just unpacking it completely because it's like i said it's different for everybody some people have no issues they have been having orgasms since forever they have a very healthy relationship with their body. They love themselves and their issues are different. They're just career-based, for example. A lot of people do. And it's been, you know, my experience that I've spoken to a lot of girlfriends and stuff.

And I realized this, the variety of experiences, but yet the lack of conversation and openness and honesty around it and that's why I feel you know it's also to go against slightly my upbringing which was you know through school it was like men's sexuality was talked about a lot women's wasn't and like self-pleasure and things like that were just not even not on the menu like it wasn't it just wasn't ever talked about. And in my family, like never talked about sex. I don't think I told my mom when I lost my virginity or anything like that. It just was all very hush hush. And I'd say I'm a very sexual person, but I definitely carried like quite a lot of shame around that. And it's only been now that I'm like, okay, I really want to step into that space and show that it doesn't have to be vulgar it doesn't have to mean that you're having like multiple

partners or anything and it doesn't have to be you know through or for male fulfillment it's actually about your you know you having self-love and really being able to occupy that space independently and also enjoy the creation you've been created and enjoy your incarnation. In a spiritual sense, you chose your life, the family you were going to be born into, but also the body that you were going to be born into. And that body is yours until death do you part. And I feel like you should enjoy it and express it and do whatever you want with it. feel like you should enjoy it and express it and do whatever you want with it. But even I've got to admit, I think I would find it potentially quite hard to communicate with a partner, not for my own lack of ability, but in fear of upsetting them.

Yeah. So that's, see, this is also something that's been ingrained in you then. And I think a lot of women relate to that. It's like, well, I'll just go by unsatisfied because heaven forbid I upset the male ego. What I've seen, and even astrologically, what works really well, I think, with people who identify as male, it's just a direct approach. And I think that's where couples who sext

tend to have healthy ideas of what the other one wants, have a realistic idea of what the other one wants because they've expressed it already in a text. And I think that that's maybe a good way to express it to each other is maybe it's a direct way to do it. There's no nudity. There's no sending news or anything, but there is the idea and you're planting that seed into their minds.

And if they don't know what you're talking about so they still have time to go and google it you know but yeah as advice i would say just go on don't worry too much about wanting to express too much to society but explore it more towards yourself what can you express for yourself how can you be more creative with yourself because sexuality is very closely linked in astrology with your creativity so maybe another way to unlock that writing is is creative journaling is creative but another way to unlock that would just to explore any kind of art you used to like or admire growing up as a child and going into that doing that as a, exploring that with the intention of obviously rediscovering yourself sexually. Because the most important thing with anything, as you know, is just the intention. So the action doesn't matter as much.

We're just using that as a medium to get to the answer. Yeah. I think it's also one of those things you've just got to look at. It's like a five minute, slightly, potentially a little bit uncomfortable conversation versus years of dissatisfaction. Weigh it up, my friends, weigh it up. It's really true. And it also like also what I've noticed, I'll tell you about my own experience before my Saturn return, as you know, I was in a long-term relationship and that broke right as Saturn passed my ascendant, right? As it was starting to return, obviously 28, like clockwork. I didn't express as much what I liked sexually because first of all, I didn't always know what I liked because I had read things in Cosmo and I was like, surely this is what people should like,

you know, this is what I meant with bringing it into society without exploring it yourself. And then also I didn't want to bring it up because like I said, I didn't want to hurt his ego, not make him feel like he was less than or he wasn't performing well. I'm sure he was doing his best, but it was just not doing it for me. And I waited too long to sell him. I waited two years. That's the thing. If you wait too long to sell him I waited two years that's the thing if you wait too long then it gets harder no but it wasn't hard for me I was so good at this stage I had gone through rough transit again and I was I was good I had future going on my Venus but for him it was horrible he took it very badly because he said you've been lying to me for two years and I thought oh no have I I have I thought I was protecting you yeah and that thing

I think a lot of guys actually want to be told but we don't because we're we don't want to be rude or we don't want to upset them and they don't want to be rude by like asking us so they're just trying to figure it out and then like two years go by and you're like I probably should have said this in the first the first couple of months and then you go into by and you're like, I probably should have said this in the first couple of months. And then you go into this conversation. They're like, OK, fine. And now this is a thing. And then they're thinking, well, what else is she not telling me?

What else has she been lying about? Yeah. And that was a big theme for me. That was a huge one. Big problem. I think so many people can relate to that ladies listening nip it in the bud say it early within the first six months even if you really want to be that tardy just give it two seasons give it a winter and a spring and then just tell them you know I love that what I wanted

to ask you about because we obviously throughout the season covered a lot of ground within the feminine and working with you know the feminine spirit cycle all these things but what I wanted to delve into because it's something that we've discussed and touched on and a few other people that I've spoken to have brought it up as well it's the sort of more destructive side. And you told me about the goddess, is it Kali or Kali? Yeah, I think it's either. I don't know. It depends on your accent. I'll go with Kali.

Kali. If somebody knows better than they can correct us, I guess. But goddess Kali is the goddess of destruction. I'll tell you who she is. She's actually time. She represents time and the void that is time. And the reason why this connects so well with Saturn return, obviously, is because Saturn is connected to boundaries and time as well. But what he represents is a limit on time.

You're born and you die. That's what he represents, the boundaries that we have to the material world. You know, like that's what he represents. The boundaries that we have to the material world. What Kali represents is eternal time. So she transcends it all. She's the time before Saturn and she's the time after Saturn. Which is why people who want to, if they want to find a remedy for Saturn, like Saturn that is giving them a lot of oppression or a lot of mental health issues or anything like that. It's just very hard. Their lives is hard and and full of obstacles they'll worship the goddess Kali

because of how she represents eternity and she represents eternal time and she represents the ability to destroy your own demons and to kind of conquer them, you know? So it's a very intense energy. And that is also the female as she is in her rawest form. She can teach us a lot about facing our own demons, but also then taking action into destroying them or into conquering them or into knowing them, finding them. I want to ask about that on a personal level. And I think that's why this has been coming up for me recently is that, you know, through my Saturn return, I had a lot of lessons. Let's just say that much because I had not been disciplined at all.

And I definitely have, you know, like we all do, my demons. And I have I always will have this slight thing of like self-sabotaging that was a massive thing for me to have to overcome and by no means have I entirely like I'm still very human in that sense and I'm always like you know like we all are one step away from making the wrong decision basically but that can be a humanizing thing to just be reminded of like, we always have a choice. You know, I think within society and like within the world I grew up in wanting to be nice and like a bit of a people pleaser and making people feel comfortable and making people feel happy. And then I realized that there was a part of me perhaps that I never ever held space for and I

completely neglected which was like a harsher part of me and that part used to come out whenever I drink so I would drink to allow that part of me to come and my friends would say there would be like a switch goes in your eyes and it's like I'm fully animated and I'm fully walking and talking but I am not me I and they used to call it Katrina but recently I'm like maybe I should rename that person Carly because it's like it's just does that part of me and it's obviously is a part of me that just doesn't care so much that is slightly destructive so I'm now like okay how can I embody those aspects of myself without it being fueled by those substances and with it actually just being in a healthier way and that's why I find the subject of her really fascinating because I feel like she represents something that we all have in ourselves that we are told to suppress and to neglect

represents the the raw female the rebellious female she represents the female that will actually stand up on shiva which is the masculine um after she's conquered the demons and she has their skulls around her neck and she has her tongue out which is full of blood because she's just drunk demon blood but that blood is actually the tongue out the patriarchal side will tell you she put her tongue out because she was embarrassed that she was standing on her male counterpart really yeah they'll say that because obviously but another part another way to interpret it would be she put her tongue out because she's rejecting all of that wasn't pure. So like the blood of the demon and the false need for violence and all of that.

She's the feminine in her purest form and she's rejecting all that has been impure. I think that's a way to really channel Kali is to not be sitting and meditating. And like, that's one part of the feminine. Kali's energy is a lot more active, even though she's time. And so she's eternal and she doesn't need to do anything. She just is. We need to accept that that part of it, of us just is, but also that in order for us to create something new, to create something that will serve us and that will really be in service of our feminine, but every part of our feminine, we need to be able to face what needs to be destroyed. So we need to be able to face whatever has pushed us towards escapism or whatever has pushed us towards behavior that we don't really want to embody anymore. body anymore in terms of her conquering her demons how would you say we conquer our own identifying them what you could do is unearthing first of all the hardest times in your life

going through that and then going through the times that you have not been proud of yourself you know that you could have done better so unearthing those two and seeing where the connection is and then identifying then what demons were behind all of that what that was rooted in and going towards that dissecting it destroying it but it takes time and that's what khali is too it's time it's having patience with yourself you can be in action all the time but understand that it's going to take moments in time it's going to it's going to take a minute it's going to take a few actions you have to be patient with yourself you can't be in a rush that's a very masculine energy to be like in this rush want to destroy them now now now now no you have to still be feminine in the way that you know

that is going to take a few seasons and also I think to not judge ourselves if we don't like slay them all the first time you know because that's like what I said with the cycles like it's not going to be the first time when you go through a very hard time where you've had to face some demons and now you're good you're back in the lights you're creating something new in your life understand that just because you haven't slayed all the other demons or some are still dormant so you're not really playing a prominent role in your life you probably will have to go through a new cycle of death and then rebirth in your lifetime but by running away from it because i feel like some people when they've gone through a hard time they'll do everything to avoid it again but it will catch up with you if you don't assert, like Holly, assertively do something about it,

time will always catch up with you. So don't avoid it. Even if it's your goals, she's also telling you to conquer your goals, to see what you want, who you truly are, what you want to become, and to take away the obstacles in between you and set a goal. So she also helps you doing that. in between you and said goal. So she also helps you doing that. People will worship her to achieve their goals. I love that. Well, Nora, thank you so much for coming on and speaking.

Well, the whole way throughout the season. I really like this Goddess Kali energy. Thank you for having me, Kagi. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed this very special episode with me and nora and if you would like a reading from her you can find her at stars incline on instagram now just before i leave you all i wanted to remind you that tickets are now on sale for the first saturn returns with kagi live show that's going to be taking place on the 9th of February 2021 at the Clapham Grand in London. Tickets are now on sale at Dice. Now we are recording this a few days in advance

so hopefully there'll be some tickets left and they are going fast and it's going to be a socially distant show so it's going to be perfectly safe and yeah I can't wait for you guys to join me Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production the producer is Scarlett O'Malley and the executive producer is Kate Taylor and remember you are not alone until next time