Saturn Returns with Caggie - 2.3 The Personal Brand: Oenone Forbat on shifting focus

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

In this episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie and Oenone Forbat, influencer and host of Adulting podcast, discuss the double edged sword of the personal brand and the illusion that social media can create. At 26, Oenone discusses how she shifted her career path after initially establishing a fan base in fitness at university. She is now pursuing her passion for comedy and discussing the real issues women face today. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with Kagi. The aim of this podcast is to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. And it seems to be striking a chord. We've had some lovely messages from you all, some of which that I'll be sharing at the end of this episode. all some of which that I'll be sharing at the end of this episode and I've created a Saturn Returns with Kagi Patreon page where I'll be sharing exclusive content and we can have conversations in a safe cohesive space visit Saturn Returns with Kagi on patreon.com if you'd like to join our growing community it was so addictive like like people thinking that you looked good. Like that in of itself was enough to be like...

Motivated. Yeah. Then after a while I was like, I know, because that's actually really not a good thing for me. Joining me in this episode is Anoni Forbat, who is an influencer, host of adulting podcasts, bookworm who hosts her own book club, and also a fledgling comedian.

But she first started gaining an audience when she was still at university and was documenting her weight loss and fitness regime. In this conversation, she reveals how not all was what it seemed and how social media can often portray a very different story to reality. But Anoni had the foresight to change course, and I hope you'll find some takeaways because she kind of, as a 26-year-old, you know, I'm 31. It's such a crucial transition. And we're going to have Nora in a second, who's our astrological guide.

He's going to be discussing about your lunar return that happens at 26 before your Saturn return, which essentially is what Anoni is going through. The focus at this time is a lot more on our emotional maturity. We start to explore what our true emotional needs are. We ask ourselves what gives us joy, what gives us mental peace, where do we want to live, what did we like to do as a child, what childhood issues did we have, what makes us feel safe, what makes us feel nurtured and also where do we feel safe and where do we feel nurtured. When does our heart feel liberated and where does it feel repressed. It's really the initiation into

emotional fulfillment and ultimately emotional maturity. We are asked to take charge of our own hearts and start the process of unconditional acceptance and love of self. Anoni and I hadn't actually met before this recording and you'll hear it's like two old friends having a good natter. We discussed the influence of social media and how that plays a part in crafting our identity and how this can be a double-edged sword and the sort of the world and the realm of the personal brand and ultimately it becomes about who's dictating who once we create that identity but it doesn't feel authentic to us anymore, how do we disengage or how do we shift direction?

Anoni is only 26 and by this point she's already achieved quite a lot and is quite impressive. And I think because she is so switched on, she could really do anything that she put her mind to. I love how she pivoted her career path and is now pursuing a more authentic version of herself. path and is now pursuing a more authentic version of herself. We in this episode discuss cancel culture, how social media as a realm for free speech has actually become a bit of a prison for the opposite. We also discuss capitalism, consumerism, feminism, all the big things and kind of put the world straight a little bit so I hope you enjoy it. to write a little bit so I hope you enjoy it. Okay, so you're 26. I am.

Yeah, I'm 31. I feel like it's a big chunk when a lot of shit goes down, especially your Saturn returns. So you seem very together for a 26 year old. I feel like I really was all over the shop. I do feel a lot more settled, but actually it's funny you said that because I'm coming up to this junction right now where I was like loving life like what's going so well and obviously

because of lockdown and everything changing I'm suddenly like I've lost a huge like spark and I'm sure you come up with this in like creative industries where I'm just like oh my god I need to completely start from scratch again and I'll have like a bit of like a not a breakdown but like I'm like this isn't working yeah I think breakdowns are actually hugely important in creativity because they ignite something because when you were at university you started up a fitness Instagram and that's how you got to where you've got now and kind of built this this brand yeah well it's so funny because I was actually talking to my friends about this other day because I had another friend who's going through a difficult period and they were laughing so much because I spin everything to be really positive so I'll be like super positive person not necessarily

supported but I'm really good at like looking back at bad things that happened I'm like that's why this amazing thing happened I'll literally like fabricate a story around it and I think that's how I put things to bed so I'm instead of like feeling like sad that something happened I'm like well thank god that guy fucked me over because that's exactly why I got this thing so I had this really awful relation with this guy it ended up being like quite like abusive like this was the one at uni at uni ended up like going through really rough patch got really into fitness but that would never have it genuinely wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had this like awful break and I was such a bad place I had to go to Pasadena but I'd always had quite a bad relationship with food and I wouldn't I'm not saying anyone should do this but

because I went to such an extreme of getting so lean I did like a bikini competition it was mad you really went I really went for it that then I got that far and I was like oh fuck this really doesn't solve any of my problems I thought that being thin would be like fixing everything and then when I got there finally made it to this like couldn't be smaller if I tried no nothing was any better if anything some things were worse and that was like an amazing like oh fine okay so I need to stop fucking like worrying so much about whether or not I've got like a back roll in my sports bra which is like my biggest worry like every morning wake up and be like but I can relate to that and I'm sure a lot of listeners will and

that thing of like in the demise of a relationship during a breakup, you think I'm going to look so good. Yeah. You're going to be so sorry that this is over. And to a degree, it does help because it's a lot better like to go to the gym and be super healthy than it is to go the other way. However, there it does come a point where you're like, is this actually. Is this healthy or is it like another form of of numbing in a way yeah and like I guess self-medicating and like a kind of and a socially acceptable way because you're still getting like addicted and this is what I want to

talk about actually in a way that's not only socially accepted but it's like encouraged and it's you know given a lot like a lot of attention through social media whereas like internally what could be going on is you're berating yourself because you're like that person essentially has made you feel unworthy so we're going to put you on this like course of action to make you worthy and you're never actually going to get to that destination but we're going to make you feel like you are if you keep doing this every single day and then you're going to be you know gratified for it on social media and like given a career so it's like what kind of message is that sending you but that was the weirdest thing because I think I've spoken about this more like looking like zooming out as well and I was like wow it was like the minute I

got to this more conventionally attractive version of myself and I was really small to the point where like if you look back now it's actually quite like I didn't look well but because to me I was so uneducated about what health was so I thought you know tracking my macros not drinking eating like a specific amount of food exercising twice a day I got up at six going to like sprints in the gym then go back and train I'd be so tired I'd have to have a nap and then I didn't want to have sex I lost my libido yeah so like that's not like healthy then I was also like chains making the whole time but then I started to gain an audience and between being like a girl with like a normal body to a girl that was shredded I went from being like oh she's like me to oh she's a fitness professional knows what

she's talking about when I had no idea it was nothing had changed just my like body fat but the way people perceived me was it's getting really long messages like how can I do this will you train me so I literally became a personal trainer because I was like I need to be able to reply I can't reply to these messages but you actually went and learned I did I went and did a course because I think the danger in in the world that we live in is like in nutrition and fitness is people actually don't go and learn they just you know perhaps have an unhealthy relationship to food or fitness but create this body that is desirable to the masses and then start you know creating these plans whatever and it's it's a bit dangerous it is and i don't i think maybe because my a lot of my family's adopted themselves so like everything

has to be like really factually based i think so you're like i've got to go i felt like i couldn't answer these questions i felt like it was and I would try to kind of like give advice, but also I knew that I felt really out of my depth. But was it what you wanted to do? Or was it more that this was like, I said, a breakup thing that was getting you feeling good about yourself and then it just spiralled into a career? So the breakup was like the catalyst for it,

but it was itch like my life changed. I went to one of the most sporty schools in the country I was really privileged and I did no sport I would literally run off and smoke and go into the engine and drink wine so on that one sense that was incredible because I went from being the girl that was like never did any sport to suddenly being this like Instagram influencer who's like talking about fitness everybody that was mad and and also people at school like really yeah I think they really were like what the fuck is she doing like how's that happened to her that's so weird it was so addictive like people like thinking that you looked good like that in of itself was enough to be like motivated

yeah and then it then after a while I was like I know because that she's really not doing anything for me and then you sort of have shifted yeah so when I finished uni I went home I broke my leg in two places in the gym and I think that was like a massive thing where I couldn't train and I suddenly was like what am I actually going to be doing and I started um like talking on my Instagram more about general stuff and like got really into feminism and just completely kind of I didn't have the excuse of just posting about fitness even though I was still trying to do like press-ups with the broken legs so in a way that was something else that was negative at the time yeah yeah and it and it was just all of these little things I think slowly by slowly I realized that um what I wanted to be doing wasn't focused on fitness even though I think it's so important

I wouldn't you'd never catch me in the pub being like oh my god let's talk about fitness whereas I love talking about politics or like feminism but at the same time I would never have got an audience talking about what I'm talking about now and in terms of pivoting away from that how was that transition into going into the subjects that you actually do feel passionate about people like why are you suddenly talking about this and I've been slowly drip feeding stuff but even at this point my Instagram was still very very fitness focused I lost loads of followers because they'd see me as a small blonde like fitness girl you can't just suddenly start talking about whatever you want to talk about because this is the interesting thing in the sort of double-edged sword of social media and creating like a personal brand is it's like

you then become sort of beholden to your audience and then if you're not feeding them what they want they turn away from you so then that keeps you sort of on a path that might not feel authentic to you anymore well that was the hardest thing so I really was struggling with it and I was like right I really want to stop doing this but that's taken like maybe two years to fully like get out of that I feel like I'm very well established it not well established but in what I'm doing and in the work I want to be doing if someone was going to contact me about writing a piece of writing or whatever it would be about what I do now whereas for so long it was still like I got asked around panels talking about you know fitness and I was like I

haven't spoken about that for ages that's really good that you were able to make that change because the idea of a woman's body even though the conversation around it has shifted perhaps into a more positive way it's still that's where the focus is and I know it myself personally like if I put up something about my body and say it's about like intuitive eating or whatever am I still seeking validation like what's really the motivation behind that and why does that get more engagement and why are people sort of so obsessed with it I guess so this is a really interesting phenomenon which I find fascinating is I used to post workout videos and then I actually stopped because I was like I hated it it made me feel like I didn't want to train I don't

want to film my body from loads of angles I find it quite invasive and then I'd be like doing that exercise 50 times to get the perfect squat angle so I didn't have the infamous back fat under my bra or whatever it might be. And I was like, this is just ridiculous. Like you don't need to watch my workout videos. It's the same as the other 150,000 girls that are posting workout videos.

I'm going to stop. Everyone will be like, please, I love your workout videos. I do the same like really basic weightlifting exercises all the time. You're not going to see anything new. And I started to realize that when I got into fitness I used to watch these women working out but I wasn't watching the workout I was watching their bodies and I would watch it and then go to the gym because I'd be so motivated by how lean they were so I'd sit on my bed and I'd be like

I don't want to go to the gym I don't want to go to the gym and I'd watch them and then I would go and do my workout but I think fitness on Instagram became so synonymous with aesthetics. It's so messy. I don't really know what it is. So even now I'll still post pictures where I will know I want to post this because I think I look hot. Do you know what I mean? I'm doing it with an act of knowledge. You know the intention. Yeah, I'm like, I'm posting this. Rather than trying to guise it as information. Rather than trying to pretend that I'm like, yeah.

Oh, but then on the other hand, when it's your work, sometimes I would think like, well, if I post a really good picture of my abs now, then people are going to read the caption and it'll get better engagement and I'll get more followers and that helps my work. So there's so many things, like, intertwined there, but I think whether or not your body is conventionally attractive and very fitnessy or lean,

or whether you're talking about embracing your roles or your say-like or whatever it is, we're still just talking about what women look like. And I still think about my body all the time and if I'd seen myself now I would have thought I was fat whereas I think I look great all the time now mostly and I think now that I'm engaging conversations would you say you had like a voice in your head that was kind of like motivating you but at the same time being like you're never going to be good enough well it's so weird and I say to those people like this but when

you're like because you're so focused, especially if, like, you compete, which is the most ridiculous thing, so you're literally being judged on how much body fat you have. But when you're in that headspace, you constantly think you're fat. Like, unbelievable. Whereas, like, I was tiny. Because that's all you're thinking about. Whereas now, I've got so many things to do,

and then I'm like, oh, what am I going to wear? Do you restrict yourself with anything? No, not at all. all and that's amazing because I used to be one of those people who was like oh I'm gluten intolerant and I'm lactose intolerant but you weren't really I wasn't but I made myself because I didn't used to eat them like the food it wouldn't even last me to like 10 a.m now it's so bad it was just how much you were eating yeah it's like nothing and training twice a day I don't know how I did it I mean it's great that it put you on the path and you are where you are now but it's interesting how the facade of social media can create this warped image but I think back then it was the clean eating um movement

like everyone thought that was fine which is kind of like also it's orthorexia which is kind of like it's orthorexia which is like guising i mean eating disorders it's like an obsession with people eating like no one it was just so normal it just wasn't like a problem it was so weird in fact it was actually encouraged and championed but it's like when have you ever ordered like a pair of jeans online because you think you're gonna look like the girl that's wearing them in the picture like i'd order them and then I'd be like why does this not look like it's on the photo on her and it's like it's so that's how simplistic like social media is like we see someone selling something and we think and we're like okay so that's how I attain what they have and I think there is a responsibility on the part of the consumer I think that we have to have our wits about us a

bit I agree in terms of we don't regulate it for ourselves. And just because it's relatively new and, you know, the likes of you and I can use it as it is for our work. But also I justify a lot that isn't work. Do you think you treat Instagram differently to your friends who perhaps don't have an account with the public audience? Yes and no. I think it's relative to the individual. So if I have however many thousand, that's what I'm used to and what's normal to me. So my degree of like engagement and interaction

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah is relative to that. And that's normal to me. Whereas to a friend that might have, don't know 800 followers her interaction and engagement and what she posts about is relative to that so I almost think that having it as work is a bit of a safety blanket because one like I know people are going to like it because there's always going to be my some of my audience who are going to like engage with anything that I post so in that sense I'm almost less self-conscious about it it's because like your friends won't like your picture like that's fucking rude but like your audience who like to engage with your

work okay well what I mean this boils down to and it's an interesting thing is that like you must feel very supported by your community and your audience and what you are discussing yeah yeah that's true and back then I would really like spill my guts and I think it was a really positive thing and actually I loved doing at the time but now that I've. And back then I would really like spill my guts. And I think it was a really positive thing. And actually I loved doing it at the time. But now that I've got a bit older, I'm like, it is me. And I'm really honest and I learn a lot about my community, but I'm trying not to talk so much about me.

And I tried to talk about a topic or a thing. That also gives me another layer of like safety, I think. And when you're exposing yourself in whatever way that might be and people are then feeding off that and asking for more. It's like, where do you draw the line? Yeah, and people can't pick me apart as much. I've kind of worked out how to use social media in a way that I feel isn't as destructive as it could be. But that's taken me years to figure out because I think it can be really dangerous for some people. Because as a creator, in vertical modes, you see behind the scenes.

You know how the photos are taken. I know what angles make people look good because I take pictures of myself all the time. But to the average Joe, they wouldn't. Yeah, so I think that it's actually worse if you're a consumer than if you're a creator. Well, because you're trying to represent that image, too, to your 100 followers or whatever. Is that what you mean? Yeah, I guess it's like I know what my day-to-day life is and it's really not that glamorous half the time but if you're watching my stories what is your day-to-day life so I wake up every morning normally around 6 15 um and then I have a coffee and then I go to the gym and then

I come back and go through my to-do list. Oh, as in you start writing your to-do list for the day. Yeah. Sometimes I write it the night before. But I like doing it all in the morning, like before I've got all my emails. I kind of have different days. So Monday normally is my like full admin, get everything done. Tuesday I like to come out and do if I've got meetings or podcasts or things. I do like doing them on Tuesdays. And Wednesdays again I've got like, I'll do meetings. And then Thursday again I come back and then I'll do content creation, content plans.

I have a PA. You're quite organised though. I I am only because my boyfriend is so I used to be the most disorganized person I'm the most disorganized person I used to think it was like my part like part of me yeah I'm like it's like who I am I'm an artist but now I'm like it's actually making my life so difficult this is what happened to me so i used to like be like no i'm so laissez-faire i just do whatever i want and like i don't give a shit blah blah blah like i'll always be the girl that's like yeah i'll come out with you on a tuesday evening and now i'm like no i can't go out in the week so what happened was my boyfriend's so so organized and he gets up every single day at 6am and he goes to bed at 10pm we're in bed asleep by 10pm it's so much better

it's just so organized and i'm still not quite as good a boyfriend it's really i mean to be fair i've actually said seeing someone he made me get that whiteboard and he actually came over the other day and i hadn't used it yet and he wrote use me on it i was like i will and it's so basic because it's all those things you want to rebel against when you're younger and actually 100 you just feel so much better so sleep is like the main thing so my life is so much healthier than it was back when when i was doing this like fitness thing so i'd go out really late i'd be smoking loads now i don't exercise anywhere near as intensively but i get always get really good night's sleep i drink more water than anyone you've ever met i eat like full nourishing meals but that could be anything from like a nourish bowl to a pizza or whatever and I think I'm like the healthiest I've ever been

but it's like got good balance it's it's really that like it's come full circle but it's so funny because you know like if you compare I don't know a bikini picture of me this year to five years ago someone would be like well she's there she's healthy but it's not it's not true it's not true well health and aesthetic aren't in as intrinsically linked as we think no and it goes like all the way across the board so like there might be people in a fatter body who people naturally would assume are unhealthy that actually that actually are really healthy and like the skinny person next to them does coke every night and smokes those that's really interesting what you say about the like the being organized thing in that i'm still because it really impacted your life oh my god in like every sense of the word and i

felt it in lockdown there was a point where i kind of like i gave up you know i was like can't i couldn't do any of the things that i wanted to be doing with work. So I've never... Yeah, you said that. In what sort of capacity? Well, so I do my podcast. And this year I run a book club, which is amazing. It's so fun. And my plan was I was going to tour it because everything's in London

and everyone's like never, and nothing ever happens in Manchester or Edinburgh or Glasgow. So the plan was I was going to do a live podcast in all these cities and a book club. I did my first comedy last year, my first stand-up set. And I wanted to... Wow. So I'm writing a stand-up show at the minute stop it but I wanted to start gigging and I couldn't

do that the only thing that I did was like I was like need to get better at saving money and that's the only thing I did because I couldn't go anywhere and then the more I started to learn about money I became like really fascinated by it like to the point where I'm like so interested I want to learn how to invest I don't have like loads of money to be investing but I want to start I want to have because also I want financial freedom you've got to put your foot in the door somehow so yeah and I want to feel like I don't know say anything did ever happen to me or I ended up in a there's so many women in domestic abuse situations that they can't leave because of they're financially controlled yeah so like especially as women to be really financially

literate is a very important thing I think but it's hard but also it's still and this has been something that I've noticed in my own life it's like romanticized this idea of a man being able to take care of you you know and there is something like nice in that but also that there is a power dynamic at play yeah and if you don't actually have any understanding of your finances or collectively in a partnership and you don't really know like if you have any rights and stuff like that it can get really tricky I'm kind of the opposite I always want to pay for everything but I think it's because my mum had me and then stopped working and now my she's like in that position where she's got no real freedom because she hasn't

worked for just so none of it doesn't feel like her money's hers my mum always talks to me about it she's like you don't understand talk about feminism all the time obviously I'm a white privileged woman so it's not so much to do with I'm very privileged but she was like when I was younger like the freedoms you have and the stuff you can do like never take that for granted she's like it's unbelievable I know because my mum is literally like a pretty hardcore feminist and we were even having a conversation last night about it she's like you don't realize how much has changed already and obviously there's still a long way to go but like you know it wasn't that long ago when we couldn't even vote women weren't allowed passports without a signature from their husband up until like

up until i think honestly it was like 20 years ago in australia something insane so i'm actually saying i'm currently just reading this book um it's called difficult women by hannah lewis and it's a history of feminism in 11 fights and the first fight she she talks about the fight for divorce then it goes on to the vote and it talks about a lot how young feminists now we often get in fights with like the older generation of feminists especially when it comes to trans there's lots of things where we disagree but we've only got this far and become so progressive because all of these women before us who were really problematic did all this stuff so like Coco Chanel was like um everyone lauds her as being like amazing but she also was like an advisor to like Nazis like she she would like pass over information and like and

so now it's really interesting with really young progressive feminists because we're so like if you step one toe out of line or you say like one thing wrong you're cancelled kind of thing and it's like um we've lost that room for for humanity so it's interesting because I kind of agree and I disagree that often the arguments get really convoluted because we're being so pernickety about how to do things perfectly correct and I think that's kind of we're we're coming at a log ahead so I'm really starting to wonder like if this needs to because I'm part of that really progressive and vertical as like my whole podcast is about it maybe like I need to be a bit more patient if there's say Jacob Rowling is doing tweets which I think personally quite transphobic like maybe I need to really like listen to what she's saying wonder

why she's got there and okay if we're going to go into this I think that everyone like there's what's put out on social media and stuff like people are super fast now to just jump on the like black and white of that's transphobic or that's like misogynistic or that's anti-feminist or whatever that might or that's racist as if that gives people like a stronger identity in in the conversation but it doesn't actually and I think that we're lacking an ability to really sit back and observe like multiple truths exactly there are multiple truths in a conversation and it's exactly that like I got into a really interesting debate with someone who have really different political views with like not that long

ago and that actually also made me think like that we couldn't have had the conversation on twitter because on twitter you're literally not allowed to even be seen engaging with someone but do you not think this actually goes against like everything that social media is supposed to do in terms of freedom of speech that we're supposed to be living in a time where we can express ourselves but actually it's creating a complete counter well it is kind of about free speech but it's about money fundamentally yeah so it's constantly trying to sell us stuff. So the more that we're engaged, the more, like, shocking something is, the more that we react to it.

If something's really nuanced, like, no one gives a shit. That ties into what we're saying about the body image thing. It's like if you put up something that's essentially shocking in whatever way that is, that is going to cause more of an effect than something that is, like, nuanced and quite, I don't know, middle of the road. Yeah. And I think that, like, this is the problem that I have with social media. It's kind of why, like, that's why I love doing the podcast

so I can have a chat. And there's so many things in this that we've said and we've, like, fleshed it out. It hasn't been, like, a fully formed idea. Whereas if you go to social media, you have to go to it with, like, a fully formed idea, which can then be, like, picked apart because it's written. But then it's funny because I'm, well I'll just stop but it's given me my career and I'm so grateful for it like the other day I was so jealous my boyfriend's like

I'm just going to delete Instagram I don't see the point in having it and I was like that's so mean because I can't because you sort of become slightly a slave to it yeah you can't like you it's fresh there was one point when like everything was down to Instagram like Instagram disappeared I would have no job. That would be gone. Everyone now wants to have a massive Instagram following. And I don't want people to feel like that because actually when you have it, it's not, you're not like, I'm so glad. Well, it's the same thing as pursuing fame in and of itself.

It's like an empty vessel, really. Unless it's the byproduct of something like a talent or an ability. When you, when you did like made in chelsea yes so that was like did you love it did you want to be famous or did you just happen to be end up being on the show i definitely if i'm completely honest had an appetite for fame because i thought it would bring me a sort of validation that would bring me some sort of peace i guess of course it didn't um and it just ended up reflecting, like, an internal turmoil that I had because, like, it just... Life was insane.

And when things happen that fast, like, that kind of overnight success, when you become, to a degree, public property, that comes at a huge price because you actually haven't developed any sense of self, you know? And I found that incredibly difficult in a similar way to I'm sure how you experience like when you built up a certain persona on social media that suited the narrative and the story you had going on at the time but then you felt this need to shift and I found it very difficult and I still struggle with it to shift because it's like the perception

of you almost becomes this monster that's like greater than yourself. But that's made me terrified as well. I think like, do I actually, because I'd love to be a presenter, I'm like, do I? Like, would I really want that level of scrutiny? Like everything that happened with Caroline Flack. I know.

There's a dark side to it. I think you have to have an incredibly strong sense of self and community around you and family and friends because it attracts like all sorts of darkness with it if it's if it's not monitored I think and the interesting thing about the public property thing is people and you get this on social media is people think that you've made a choice and so you deserve that dark side you deserve the vitriol and you deserve the judgment because you're in the public eye and I find that such a weird payoff because actually it's like

fame and money can give you so much privilege but I look at lots of people who are famous and have lots of money and I think I would hate to be you like I'd hate to be Kim Kardashian I can't think of anything worse but you also realize as you get older that that doesn't make you happy. It like creates a facade. Yeah. That then is sold through the media as happiness that makes people like buy into it and face it. Yeah. But it's not actually meaningful. It's hard, isn't it?

Because I agree with you. And then I think like, if we really believe that's true, then I really shouldn't be doing ads on Instagram for any kind of product, you know? Because it's like, but then is there any such things like fairness under capitalism like because I guess unless we were going to go in a mutually exclusive concept unless we were going to go live in like a commune we guess I guess everyone is feeding into that system we're just doing it in a front-facing way I always get into these existential crises but I can see you are getting into a crisis about I know exactly what you mean and it is you know it's like you know we're privileged people talking about this

kind of stuff and yet we are feeding into it in our own way for our own benefit so it is a sort of double-edged sword but I think it's important to just have a degree of responsibility for like whatever you are putting out and the why behind it I do think as well I think what we don't talk about enough which what we spoke about earlier though is we're all creators and consumers in some ways because even if you've got a hundred followers if your profile is open you are in some way like an influencer like it kind of it's not really that influencing your friends yeah your friend like and I think that we forget that and actually you know what this kind of boils down it's like personal sovereignty it's like how able are we to navigate things for ourselves yeah or how much are we gonna seek guidance from external sources

and I think social media is just such an example of that it's like if I do that if I follow that if I do this like I'll be happy and I mean even to think like if I go back to when I was 15 you said like in X years time most of you will be spending X hours a day looking at pictures of strangers on the internet I'd be like no way but for some reason that feeds into the thing that we have some sense of security but what do you think from a sort of philosophical perspective on why there is such an obsession with social media well i think first of all it was designed to be addictive so literally like neurological reaction to it like hardwiring yeah it's just designed like everyone who works in silicon valley if you ever listen to a talk like they

don't let their children use social media like no way and then I think the other thing is community like everyone lives far away no one can afford to get anywhere there's no such thing as community no one's religious so what do you have at the end of the day like when you're living in a tiny flat that you can't really afford and dopamine hit off the phone yeah it's like the cheapest crack you can get and everyone has a phone so I think i think it literally is like that is what it is god that's quite a sobering thought isn't it it is but and it's and when you think about it so i noticed my boyfriend i really make a conscious effort like for it out for a meal like not to like have your phone in your bag but we'll do it sometimes we're

having dinner and i will be in the middle of eating dinner with him and i just pick my phone rank what do i need right now like well i do I need anything more than just being sat here with you yeah it's about self-regulating really isn't it and being responsible because it's not going anywhere so I think it's just about monitoring one's intake well it's not going anywhere but this is I've been so interesting you know the youngest median age on Instagram is 24 because all the young people use TikTok. So Instagram's actually losing itself in some ways because it's like an ageing population. Because we grew up with it, so that was our TikTok.

And luckily, I thought about starting TikTok, so it's really a fun thing. I was like, I don't even want to know. I'm going to have to take a long, hard, good look at myself when I start doing TikTok dance videos. They're so fashionable and so cool. And I'm like, I don even want to know I'm gonna have to take a long hard good look at myself when I start doing like tiktok dance videos fashionable and so cool and I'm like I don't want to I don't need to know I've got enough pressure from like women my own age I don't need to be stressed out by like some 14 year old oh it's very true best clothes all right well I think we covered a lot of ground well thank you so much for coming on thank you for having me I love

talking to you I love talking to you. I love talking to you too. And we'll have you back soon. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Anoni because I really enjoyed having it and listening back. There were a lot of takeaways from me, but to have that self-awareness around social media is something that isn't going anywhere. I recently watched The Social Dilemma on Netflix

and it really opened my eyes to the reality of what and how we are consuming information. There's an amazing quote in it that says, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product. And I think it's something that we should just start self-regulating, being mindful of when you're going on it just to numb out, and how much you are comparing, because as you will probably gather from this conversation, all is not what it seems. Through this podcast, one of the things that I really hope you will gain as a listener is this idea of personal sovereignty, and I think Anoni is a great example of someone who has really taken the reins of her own life

and is guiding things in the direction she wants to go in and I think that's really fantastic. You can find me on Instagram at kaggy's world and Anoni at o-e-n-o-n-e. Also if you'd like a reading with our astrological guide for the season Nora please find her at stars incline. guide for the season Nora please find her at stars incline this podcast has grown through word of mouth so please continue to share it with your friends or anyone that you think might find it useful it would also mean a lot if you are enjoying it to leave us a review on apple because this helps us get discovered by more like-minded people so here's a voice note from a fan down under. I am absolutely loving Kagi definitely not reached my Saturn returns. The topics of discussion are so insightful, interesting and just fun. And it's just a comforting and peaceful podcast to listen to on my Monday afternoon walks here in Sydney.

Emily from Sydney, thank you so much for your lovely words. And please do check out our Saturn Returns with Kagi Patreon page if you'd like to join our growing community. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Deborah Dudgeon and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. This podcast is growing through word of mouth so please continue to share it with your friends or anyone that you think might find it useful. It would also mean a lot if you are enjoying it to leave us a review on Apple because this helps us get discovered by more like-minded people. And please do check out our Saturn Returns

with Kagi Patreon page where I will be sharing exclusive Saturn Returns content for the Saturn Returns community. Thank you so much for listening and being part of this journey. Until next time, remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.