Saturn Returns with Caggie - 2.5 The Mother: Madeleine Shaw

Episode Date: November 2, 2020

In this episode, Caggie is joined by her oldest, bestest friend Maddy Shaw. Maddy is a nutritional therapist and author who has been sharing recipes to help you get the glow back over the last 8 years. They discuss Maddy's experience into motherhood, how this played a role in her purpose leading up to her Saturn Returns and how moving abroad to Sydney helped her establish a truer sense of self during her Saturn Square at 21. They also discuss using food in their younger years as a form of control during turbulent times, rather than facing the emotions that came up. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. In this episode of Saturn Returns, I'm delighted to be joined by my oldest, bestest friend, Madeline Shaw. Maddie and I have been friends since the tender age of four years old. Bearing all and being still loved. Such a powerful thing. So powerful. And I look back and think, of course, like loads of people love me for who I was and could see that. But like that was like. Maybe you didn't. Yeah, I couldn't. And he was the person that like completely broke that for me. And I think it took a while, but I feel like I'm at you know such a good

place. Mads is just the most wonderful human being and she really does inspire me daily. I wanted to talk to her in this episode specifically about her motherhood journey because she fell pregnant at 26 which is quite young and you know everyone else wasn't really at that stage of life. And she sadly suffered a miscarriage. And after that experience, being a mum became a really big part of her identity and her purpose leading up to her Saturn return. She now has a beautiful son. And in this episode, she's incredibly open about this whole experience and the grief that she encountered along the way

and the fulfilment that motherhood has brought to her life. Me and Maddy also discuss living abroad, our mutual connection and love for Sydney in Australia and how at 21, your Saturn square, she already had a pretty strong sense of who she was and where she was going. But before we get into Maddy's episode, let's check in with our astrological guide for the season Nora. Saturn's return really confronts us with age and every fear and hope related to that. We'll feel especially as women but also men the need to contemplate what seemed not as pressing before. For many that is the experience of having children. Many will also see it play out as a need to create a project or get into a new venture that is more aligned with their inner creativity. Start and return really gives us that extra push to create and bring new life into the world, be it a child or a brainchild. Interestingly at this time we start to appreciate our parents more. The transition into full adulthood brings understanding to their struggle, and we realize

that they did the best they could with the tools that they had. Some see their parents aging for the first time, and others recognize the resemblances they have with the parents they used to rebel against. We develop a kinder heart and mercy for the parents we used to identify as the disciplinarian. If you're a child of divorce, you'll start to see both sides of the story and hopefully be able to forgive and let go

by the time Saturn moves on. Hi Mads! Hello! Welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast! Thank you I'm a big fan. Well as my oldest friend one would hope so. We've known each other actually you are my oldest friend. Yeah you're definitely my oldest friend as well yeah I think we were four. We've got some pictures yeah of us in the like rubber boat in the ocean and also i mean you might think differently but i would say that we've never had an argument

perhaps over a boy at 12 yeah i think we thought an ed curr an ed curr yeah yeah so yeah fights over boys but they were very short-lived. Oh, and then another boy dumped me because he was in love with you. Oh God. But we didn't have a fight over that. No, because it wasn't your fault. Yeah, so aside from that, we've actually never, and also we're both quite like docile as people. Yeah, that's true.

So we're not very argumentative but anyway for the audience that don't know could you explain a little bit about yourself yes um I'm a nutritional therapist um and chef and mother um I kind of began my business when I moved to Australia I went there when I was 19 after a gap year. Kagi had parved away a year before me and set up some new friendships for me. And while I was over there, I had really bad IBS and I was trying to figure out what was causing it. And I ended up going to see a naturopath

and she helped me change my diet. And then I ended up eating in this cafe so much they gave me a job. So they were like, I mean, you're basically funding this place so you might as well work here yeah and cook there and it was awesome it was like a gym cafe where the guys worked out topless and the Australian rugby team ate there good times I mean that kind of sums up Australia doesn't it so to like bring it back I mean I want to talk about Australia because it is actually quite a key component to both of our lives and our journeys I'd say because we both have a very strong affiliation with it as a country and as a city Sydney yeah definitely because me

me and Millie actually paved the way a little bit we went on our gap year and made some friends that we still all have to this day and then Mads went after but before Australia you were very very different to how you are now and I mean I'm saying that because I also was like very very different to how I am now so yeah I feel like my teens were definitely like an interesting time and I think because we grew up together and we have a lot of so many things happen to us at the same time so like both our parents divorced in a really similar way at a really at a really similar time like both our dads had affairs with other women and then both of us lost a really close friend to us and I think probably at that moment in time like a lot

of things felt out of control for me and I think which is by the way 15 around 15 around 15 yeah I probably was a little bit younger 14 I think so many things felt out of control and I think I started to like use food as a control mechanism in like a negative way and I think we grew up in the era of like Kate Moss heroin chic there was like a narrative of like being really skinny is the only way to be and like I think I really at all costs yeah like there wasn't really like this measure on like looking healthy or looking after yourself it was like if you're thin then you are beautiful and I think that was like part of like a narrative I fed myself but also an element of like a change like being a teenager is really hard in itself but also having to like go between two parents houses and like kind of deal

with this like loss of like quite a key person in our lives well there was the literal lost loss of someone you know one of our closest friends that died which you know grief when you experience it in that kind of abrupt way is a tricky thing to navigate but then also there was the loss of essentially like your family dynamic yeah you know as both of us knew like our nests to be that was disrupted you try and grab onto something that you can control and then also something i've been thinking about recently in terms of like one's relationship to one's body and food, especially for a woman or a girl going through teenage years and puberty and everything and your body changing. I think it can create like a slight, you don't trust your body because it does suddenly develop in this way quite quickly.

because it does suddenly develop in this way quite quickly. And you can feel like it's turning on you because often part of that is like putting on a bit of weight and everything and a flesh and filling out. And that is sometimes when that can cause that change to something that I don't like what's happening. I don't like how I'm changing. So I'm going to try and, you know, remain small, essentially. Yeah, I got caught in this like cycle and I think a lot of it was a lot of shame if people commented that I was thin or like I wasn't eating enough I felt shameful and I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone about it even though I had like great friends and like a really amazing family like I kind of held it as this secret and that's almost made it worse like I think if I had been like more open and like more explorative and I think a lot of like

relationships with um boys or I feel like they were boys not men at that time like I feel like I never could be vulnerable like I would never like I would be like smiley and like happy and would drink a lot and party a lot and that would be like the only surface I would show people I felt like I always went for the guys that were like a bit dickish because they would never be interested yeah they don't want to delve any further yeah and all the really nice guys would be like I'd really love to take you out for dinner or like, I'd love to get to know you. Get away from me. Yeah.

So I feel like I went through like a series of like, there was nothing wrong with them. They all were obviously good people, but they were just not interested. They were surface level. They weren't interested. And I guess, yeah, got really into partying, started clubbing at a very young age. Like, and I guess we all did. We were partying a lot and I guess we all did yeah we all did like there was a big group of us and we would just like party all the time and it was escapism and I think I just wanted to be cooler and older at all times we did experience quite a lot quite young yeah definitely

because we grew up in London and went to London day schools it was all quite accessible to us yeah I mean I remember like being 16 and going clubbing on Thursday night on a school night then going to school the next day like I'm not even taking the risk I don't know how my mum let me get away with it like I think I convinced her that it'd be good for a long time because I'd be learning about networking that shows you you always had a need to be a business woman I mean I know how I did it I just stayed at my dad's and basically there were no rules there whereas my mom was just like pulling her hair out being like how am I supposed to you know parent my child when one parent's not doing anything yeah so you experienced that pretty young and then it's interesting that

thing you say about there being a lot of shame around your emotions because that shifted quite a lot when you went to Australia and the relationship you had didn't it yeah I think so so I had a boyfriend for the first kind of year and a half two years of being in Sydney and I think he was like the first person I loved and like the first relationship that I was like bad all I'm like you felt seen in yeah and it lasted the distance like I think I it would always get to like you know four or five months for someone and then it would end because surface level really can't sustain exactly and yeah so he was amazing and I think he had like had his own kind of emotional turmoil and I think because he was open to me about that I felt safe to do the same

and when I spoke about it there was no judgment bearing all and being still loved such a powerful thing so powerful and I look back and think of course like loads of people love me for who I was and could see that but like that maybe you didn't yeah I couldn't and he was the person that like completely broke that for me and I think it took a while but I feel like I'm at you know such a good place well it's definitely not an overnight fix no but I think that is such a an amazing step because like you say stepping into that vulnerability and allowing yourself to be seen in a way that you feel is shameful by another human being and then still staying there and loving you it then gives you permission to love those aspects

of yourself and bring them out of the darkness and into the light and that's when the healing happens a hundred percent I was also in a new city where I could be anyone and I think that's the amazing thing about moving overseas is like that total refresh but that was so authentic to the true essence of who you are yeah exactly and then you came back and you were like a totally different person I mean Maddie always used to be like so tanned all the time in London she came back from Australia like the palest I've ever seen her. She's like, I don't go in the sun anymore. I wear like, you know, SPF that's made from like coconuts or something. And I, and I eat in this like really nourishing nutritional way. And I was

like, wow, she's found her thing. And you went for it from then yeah that's so true and I think when we were teenagers we hung out with so many people with so much wealth and I think we'd always go to these like unbelievable houses and even though at that time I was like I'm not good enough like my house isn't big enough like I'm not all these things that these other people are and I think I came to realize in Australia that like it's not about that and like it's about who you are as a person than like well it was quite superficial yeah really superficial and I think I I feel like I I lost a lot of friends when I moved back but not in a bad way but like and how old were you when you moved back so I was 22 yeah To tie it back into the theme, there's like Saturn squares. So like there's 7, 14, 21.

So like those are big shifts that happen as well. And your biggest one, I think that obviously happens like as you're approaching your 30th, can come with like, I call it like a sieving of friends. Because you're kind of parting ways with the version of you you used to be and naturally with that there are going to be a lot of people that fall by the wayside because they only connected with that version of you and if you're not that version anymore where's the common ground yeah it was quite hard yeah it's challenging and I think now you know I didn't really drink when I moved back and I still don't really now but at that time like 22 is really young not to drink no one was not drinking I was still like drinking a lot yeah you were really kind of like

sailing that ship quite solo and we were all like have fun and which is actually quite incredible at a very young age to have that like sovereignty of like this is who I am now and this is what my values are and this is what I'm sticking to yeah whereas it would be so easy and so many people to do they go off and they find those things and then they come back and they forget about them because it's a lot easier to and they just want to fit in the thoughts that I would tell myself is no one thinks I'm fun anymore and that was a really negative cycle that I would tell myself because I think we stopped getting invited yeah which is basically like we don't think you're fun anymore yeah like people would not invite me to like parties or you know stuff which was like hard in some ways but equally if I was really honest the person that I was not being invited wasn't my true friend.

And equally, you find people that like see you and like really interested in you as a person, not you as fun drunk. And those connections are so much more fulfilling because they're authentic. And it's like an instant thing when you're meeting on a level that's, you know, you're both on it. It's like, OK, that's going to be a friend rather than like playing into the sort of the fluff and the fake stuff that you have going on. Yeah. The party scene. And I think, you know, I mean, I met my boyfriend who's still my boyfriend now at that time when I moved back and he is a big drinker. But it wasn't a problem for him, which was a nice thing. he is a big drinker but it wasn't a problem for him which was a nice thing okay so then you felt like you found your feet quite a lot yeah and I think I really threw myself into work

and I was so excited to ride this like new wave like I just started up my website and you know health and wellness was so huge in Sydney and it was just like starting to bubble and I I just kind of really went for it like I for the first few years I worked every day and I was excited by it and I never knew what I wanted to do like I I never had like a specific subject at school or like I wasn't really really good at anything where I would be like I know I'm going to do that but the minute I started getting into kind of food and cooking in Sydney and then back in London I was like this is it and I wasn't really good at it by the way can I just say like I look back at my first recipes I'm like they were terrible and like even now I'm like I'm only just kind of getting better and better like

I'm incredibly dyslexic so all the spellings are wrong in my blog post. Like photography wasn't a natural thing. But I think one talent that I had that was true to myself was being good at smiling. And I'd always been. You are very smiling. I'm naturally like quite an upbeat, positive, smiley person as like my true essence. And I think that kind of propelled me to do well in an industry. In that space. Yeah.

And I think my mum runs her own business. That was really inspiring. And both my parents love what they do. So I always wanted a job that I loved. And I think I just really, really threw myself into work. And how long did it take, would you say, for it to kind of start connecting in a meaningful way? Whatever that means to you

from the beginning from the very beginning I don't know the first time someone recreated a recipe to the first like I used to do lots of like cooking demos and I'd spiralize a courgette and people would be like whoa that's so revolutionary I'm talking like eight years ago you know I just like even to this day love what I do wake up feel really happy and grateful and I don't know I felt at home even though it was a world that like was so unknown there was no like career steps to get there no one could tell you like how to do it you just muddled your way through one step at a time it just was obviously just the right thing for me what age are you now oh god so this is kind of 23 onwards I guess and then so it was like career

career career and then I want to talk to you about your motherhood journey yeah so I fell pregnant by accident when I was 26, just turned 26. And then I think there was background to why that happened. So I was on the pill from 14 to 21 and then broke up with the original Aussie boyfriend and kind of was like, I don't really need it. Aussie boyfriend and kind of was like I don't really need it like I'm I was only on the pill for you know one regulating my periods and two um contraception and I was like kind of getting into wellness learning more and more I was like I'm gonna go go off I don't want to put this in my body anymore and didn't get my period for like a year and I don't know if this is the reason it came back but like went to see this woman in Byron Bay and was like you know I really need to get my period back I haven't had it for a long

time can you help me and she's like you need to stop pushing and being so masculine you need to like open up into your feminine side and like connect with the moon and I was like had never heard of things like this I was like okay and then anyway did a lot of like like dancing and like five rhythms and like all these kind of things and then ended up very quite briefly dating this yoga teacher who was so masculine like the embodiment of like masculine energy and this is all in Australia and that allowed you to lean into femininity literally got my period and he said this had happened to other people he had dated. No.

Yeah. He said a few different people had lost their periods for a while and then dated him and got their periods back. Period miracle, man. Everyone, go meet him. His number is... Yeah, like, he's obviously just, like, allows that, hold that space for, like, women obviously just like allows that hold that space for like women to like

relax and like be feminine and like not have to like I don't know which I think is a really interesting subject and conversation in itself because we do possess both energies but we can be out of alignment and leaning too heavily into one and then that can cause that kind of effect but actually by these very natural practices they can have like a really profound effect yeah they did on me so yeah then got my period back it was kind of irregular and I think because there was a lot of like trauma and like fear around like will I not be able to have a baby like in this really early I think so like just you know when I saw a doctor they said you know it might not be as easy for you so when I got pregnant at 26 I was like this is obviously it

this is fate this is fate like it's meant to be and then I was going through my pregnancy and was working loads at the time and was launching this new range with Rene another mutual friend of ours in Berlin, and just started bleeding. And I was about 12 weeks. I went to three different hospitals, couldn't get in anywhere. I finally got into one and they were like, we're really sorry you can't hear the heartbeat. And I was like, oh my God. So I had to fly back to London, cancel this event of this launch and got back. They were like were like we're gonna have to operate on you to remove the baby because it's too big for it to naturally come out and they couldn't book

me in and then on the Saturday I started going into labor so I started getting contractions which were I mean as anyone knows who's given birth incredibly painful went into hospital they couldn't book me in for the operation so they gave me morphine and then they had to like sorry it's quite graphic but like this um doctor had to put his hand up me to pull out the clots of blood because I was clotting so much and then the next day I had my operation and it was like this crazy thing where like you kind of when you get a pregnancy test and it says pregnant you like have suddenly planned out your life. You're like at Christmas, I'll have a baby, like all this kind of stuff.

And like, even though I was so young, I just was like ready for it. I was like, bring it on. And that being taken away from you, even though it wasn't planned, even though we were young, even though all these sorts of things were like potentially against it it was just crazy and I think the thing that like messed me up the most was the hormones because everything in my body was like have a baby have a baby and I became totally fixated and then ended up getting pregnant I don't know four or five months later with Seamus, our son. So yeah, I was pregnant very young, which is nice because you are, you know, young, but it was difficult because no one else was going through it.

And no one was even near. In a way, if you think about it, you kind of like replicated again, going into the stage of life that we all like got into a few years later like in terms of you coming back from Australia like sort of fresh out of being 21 being like this is who I am this is what I'm doing and going for it whereas we're all just still down at the pub and then so it's naturally that I guess the next part you know 26 like getting pregnant and going through that experience I mean the idea of that for me is like I would know where I'm no way ready now yeah but I think that you had just for whatever

reason like evolved into that state and motherhood was such an integral part of like your your purpose really yeah it's like I think the part about the miscarriage though is a really interesting and important conversation because I think a lot of people experience it, especially when they first get pregnant. But it's just not talked about. No, it definitely isn't. And also that trauma, because on an emotional, physical, spiritual, every level, you are prepared for that. And it's on some capacity happening. And then suddenly for that to be taken away.

on like some capacity happening and then something for that to be taken away and I don't feel like there's enough acknowledgement of the grief of that process that you experience definitely I think like you said like I didn't know anyone who had and then obviously when it happened lots of people would tell me their mums had had it or they their sisters or their friends or whatever and that was obviously really reassuring I wish I had looked after myself better and maybe seen yeah a counsellor or you know psychiatrist or psychologist or someone I think I was very like I don't need that all I need is a baby like which was probably not the way to approach it. You became quite fixated on having a baby. I know. I can't explain it. There was no rationality to it. It was totally emotive.

I guess with work, with lots of things, like I'm very like, I want it, I'm going to go for it. And I'm like full steam ahead. Which is in contrast to who you are in a lot of ways because you are this very like chilled person but then you have this innate steeliness that's like that is what I'm going after and that's what I want yeah and I do it in a very like gentle gentle way but I'm focused and I'm very driven yeah and it was baby time it was baby time so yeah I did get pregnant

I actually had a really good birth and then I had an epidural, which takes all the pain away and I can't recommend it enough. Okay. You always knew you wanted to do that? I always knew I wanted to do that. Even though everyone I met was like,

you're going to have this hippie natural birth in the water. Yeah. Like that's the expectation I think. Totally. Of my like personality would have been that. But like because of my miscarriage. And I think that was that trauma of like experiencing the contractions and then having no baby. And I think I was just like, I want to go in.

I just want to like it to be really easy and relaxed and like quite like normal, nice time. And he came out with a little and then yeah and like I remember he did that like nuzzling thing where he finds your boob and then latched on and yeah it was unbelievable wow even now when I see pregnant people I'm like it's so weird how there's a baby like a child inside of you like even though I've been through it I'm still like in awe of the process like it's so crazy like it's so crazy what was your experience like once you had the baby because I think that's an interesting part because they said people can become fixated on the goal of having a kid yeah but then what shifted for you afterwards because you are going

into a completely new chapter of life and physically you're going through changes hormonally and just adapting to the fact that there's now another person in life that is priority number one and that is like how it's going to be I think that was really easy for me I don't know why maybe I mentally prepared myself during pregnancy maybe I had been preparing myself for a very long time without even realizing it through all these different kind of shifts I'd gone through but like you could think oh I was really young or I wasn't ready or all these sorts of things but it just felt really easy like not that everything was perfect but just I found like bonding really easy

and like connecting and like so many like magical moments that are like breathtaking. And there are so many like challenging moments. And then there's just loads of like mundane, like nappy changing or like, you know, cleaning or burping. Yeah, that like are just like, you could definitely fast forward through this.

Yeah. Like, yeah, there are definitely a lot of boring parts um but yeah I'm really very lucky to be able to afford child care and because I work for myself and I had that flexibility I feel so grateful to have had that like flexibility and I work at home so like even though I had a nanny I was there for every moment maybe not yeah so I feel like had the in my terms best of both worlds and like I'm also someone that quite likes being by herself and like that it is a quite a lonely job being a mother like you are by yourself at home a lot and I think that's what people find really hard yeah it quite suited me would you say then because obviously like through someone's Saturn return such a key component is establishing um your identity in your purpose would you say that like motherhood is like a really integral part of your identity now definitely yeah I think

it comes with so much joy, but it also comes with a lot of fear. And that's something that I, like, didn't quite realise. What's the fear part? Just the fear of loss, the fear of something happening to them. Like, I don't know whether I could survive. You know, that kind of, like, you're so... Primal for me.

You have so much love and a completely unconditional love for this thing that you've never really experienced unconditional love before it doesn't matter if they poo on you or if they smile at you you've still kind of got that consistent like heartwarming love that like is just shining at all times because I think from I mean to go into like my personal experience or their lack of like sometimes when I think of motherhood I'm like I don't know whether I'd feel that way yeah I think that's so true but you just can't know that until you experience it it's a big thing to like take on hope that you do because you can't I think you would and like look some people do get postnatal depression or some people just

it takes a little while to bond but like I do think that you have that capacity inside of you and like romantic love like it is so conditional like if you don't meet my needs in these ways or show up for me in these ways like I'll leave you yeah I'll leave you or love will go or whatever these things are like but with children it is just really different and you are like connected to them in a different way do you think that's why it can be challenging for a relationship because you actually have that contrast really of like unconditional love versus you've got you've got a couple of conditions buddy a hundred percent I think and you don't realize that until you actually experience what real unconditional love is yeah and I think obviously every relationship is different but I think

I bonded really easily like that was really good for me and I was like you're my number one now and that's really hard for the person that you're with because they're not getting that love from you they're not getting that time from you and that's something that I've like had to learn and you know we've been together for over seven years and it's a really long time and like you go through so much together being parents and that's incredibly bonding and you become a team and that's so amazing. But you've also got to just put in time and effort and more thought process into a relationship that I never thought before because it was just really like easy and simple. I think that makes sense. Yeah. I think that makes sense yeah and for the listeners because obviously you have just like gone through your Saturn return has there been anything else that's come up for you over the last

couple of years that has been I don't know felt complicated or like there's been a big shift in you or has it been quite uh cementing turning 30 I feel like I didn't have this kind of expectation even though like pressure pressure and I think probably that's because I'm with someone that I want to be with for the rest of my life and I have a child and maybe if I hadn't had those things I might have felt differently but I think I felt really excited to turn 30 I don't know I feel like I've enjoyed each year of my life and really made the most of it and I don't know I'm like quite excited about getting older I think perhaps because what happens is people approach 30 specifically women yeah is there's that awareness of society had told

us we'd have certain things by this time yeah and it's quite an archaic like system of you should have a family and like yeah a hundred percent whereas the reality now is like a lot of people don't and that's perfectly fine but it just does feel like you're walking on the plank and then suddenly that like timer gets pushed it's like and countdown your biological clock has started and it's gonna run out and that just makes people feel like this pressure do you think that motherhood is you know more children as part of your future now yeah I mean I really would love to have another baby and I think that's definitely on the horizon and I think it will definitely be such a different experience going into it like having done it before which I feel really excited about

what would your advice be to anyone that is going through their journey of motherhood at this sort of transition either struggling with it or at the early stages of having a baby I would say that like everyone struggles like I feel like you see picture perfect baby that's sleeping and that's kind of what the beginning bit should be. I think everyone has challenging moments with their child, whether that's reflux or sleep or tantrums or eating. I don't know anyone that's breezed through everything. Talk about it with people. Even if they don't it, like they want to be there for you. Reading really helped me a lot, like even just having a little plan in action, whether it's like a new technique to try to help with tantrums or whatever the issue is.

I felt like empowered because sometimes feeling powerless and just not knowing what to do is really challenging so like and isolating yeah exactly so even if it's just like a little tip or something new that you're going to try even if it doesn't work it feels like you've like made the effort or like you're taking your power back a little bit because you can feel quite powerless go easy on yourself like you can't be the perfect mother and you will make loads of mistakes along the way but if you are present and you're listening and you're showing up for them I think that's like the best thing you can do as a parent and I think in the era that we're living in where like we're glued to our phones all the time it's so challenging and parenting can be incredibly boring and like actually looking your phone can be more interesting at times and I think it's like retraining yourself

to be present to be present and to like push through those boring moments because you will get more connection with yourself and you'll understand yourself more because actually we're not bored enough and I think boredom is like a gift yeah it gives space to those creative but Brene Brown actually talked about it in something and she she was supposed to start her her book and her husband was like I'm going to take the kids so you can so you can start for a couple of days and he went off and came back and he was like how how much have you written she was like I haven't written anything and he was like uh what have you been doing she was like nothing I've just been doing absolutely nothing and they got in a huge argument but

actually that then became her process because when she created that kind of boredom in that space and allowed herself to just like be. Then the creativity started to flow and came in in its own moments because you can't force that stuff. So it's kind of like a similar thing. Yeah. And I think it's those thoughts that you bubble down. Like, do I really like my job? Like, is that friend a true friend to me? Like, should I be switching up my exercise it's not really working for me whatever those thoughts are like that we often push down because we just

continue on with like that repetitive life cycle that we live in with the people that we spend our time with and the things that we do and the choices that we make actually having a bit of stillness you can listen to those like inner thoughts and that intuition and I still resist it like you know I'll pick up my phone or like not want to like listen to myself but when I do intuition for me is like something that like helps me so much with decisions and like you know where I'm going or like what would I should choose and I think like actually those are the moments that like fine-tune it more I love that well thank you very much Mads I think that's a beautiful note to end things on thank you for having me on the podcast and

sharing your journey I think everyone will really enjoy it I I hope so. As someone who feels a long way off motherhood myself, there is no fixed course with this. I know I joke about post-30, the biological clock starts ticking, and a lot of people feel this pressure, but we all have our own rhythm and journey in this life. I could talk to Maddy about anything, and we do talk about anything and everything. She has this very soft disposition about her,

and I feel that she is almost more of a sister to me sometimes. Miscarriages are something that a lot of my friends have experienced. They are actually incredibly common, but it's not that it's any easier, and it can really take you by surprise, you know, hormonally, emotionally, physically. I think that it's a lot to deal with and no one really warns you about this during your first pregnancy. You know, I'd like to talk more about this subject from a different angle at another point around a woman's purpose. You know, motherhood isn't for everybody. And although it was Maddie's experience and

journey, it's important to acknowledge it's not everyone's I sometimes question whether it's mine and I think it's okay it doesn't make you any less of a woman so feel free to send your thoughts on the matter I'd love to hear from you you can find me on Instagram at kaggy's world and Maddie at madeline underscore shore underscore and nora at stars incline i really appreciate all your feedback and hearing from you guys who have listened in and i like to think of it as a conversation amongst friends so thank you very much for listening and being part of this journey with me saturn returns is a feast collective production the. The producer is Deborah Dudgeon and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Until next time, thank you very much for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.