Saturn Returns with Caggie - 3.3 Dismantling Beauty Standards with Jessica DeFino

Episode Date: April 19, 2021

In this thought-provoking conversation Caggie is joined by award-winning reporter Jessica Defino, whose work focuses on deconstructing beauty standards and the beauty industry. They discuss how social media has created an unachievable, perfect aesthetic that people are trying to maintain and recreate through surgical procedures, and how the ability to alter our image digitally and physically, has intensified our obsession with beauty and youth. This conversation explores why certain structures benefit from this, and how disempowering it is for the collective, why we need to disconnect value from beauty, and how we can start to have conversations that dismantle the patriarchy and help us step into our power. --- Subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and receive more empowering insights and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  DO YOU EVER FIND YOURSELF ASKING THE FOLLOWING… Will I ever find my true calling? Why do I struggle with boundaries? How do I know If I am living authentically? Am I happy with the path my life is on? The Saturn Returns Course: A digital e-course specially created to help you build the foundations of your most authentic self. This course is designed to guide you through the key themes that often come up during our Saturn Return. It is a curation of concepts and supportive modalities, intertwined with my own personal experience. Find more information on what to expect from The Saturn Returns Course, here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. If you are attempting to look younger, that is something you are going to do for the rest of your life. There's no product you can use that you're going to use it and be like, okay, I've done it. I'm done with the anti-aging. In this episode of Saturn Returns, I am joined by award-winning reporter Jessica DeFino. Jess, who has a degree from Berkeley Music College in songwriting, mainly writes today about skincare, but not in the way that you might expect. Jess focuses on dismantling and deconstructing beauty standards and the beauty industry.

She describes herself as pro-skin and anti-product and covers supportive, sustainable skincare based in science and spirituality. Now Jess is all about real self-care and this episode I hope will empower you because it really empowered me and it will call you to question certain structures and beliefs that may not actually be your own. She answers so many questions that I've had over the last couple of years and thoughts that I haven't been able to articulate and I think with social media fueling our insecurity and this obsession with beauty and youth being at this unachievable level. It's a really important conversation to have.

So it really opened my eyes to a number of things and I hope it will do the same for you. But before we speak to Jess, let's check in with our astrological guide, Nora. We become more aware of our mortality and the inevitable truth of aging as we near our 30s, a time period that coincides with our first Saturn return. If during our early 20s we've relied on the male gaze or society's norms of beauty,

norms internalized by us as showcased by magazines or by social media influences and ads, then during our Saturn return we start to question those very norms and how aligned with reality they truly are. As we become aware of the fallacy of unattainable beauty ideals and a toxic vicious cycle that trying to attain them creates, we slowly and suddenly, in a true Saturnian way, get the opportunity to understand how rigged the game against real people is. opportunity to understand how rigged the game against real people is. As Saturn depicts, we get confronted with reality, the reality of self, the reality of the media industry and the big industries that drive them. We get the chance to understand and to balance out our warped view of beauty in favor of self-acceptance. It doesn't mean we don't beautify ourselves or celebrate and highlight our features. The Saturn in us loves what is authentic and in authenticity

lies beauty. But it does mean that we put a focus on our personal beauty and work from there, rather than imitate a beauty standard that was never ours and that was born out of lower vibrating Neptunian expressions projected onto us by disempowering societal norms. I cannot hear the heater in here. Okay, let's just do this then. Okay. Okay, this is the best it's going to get. This is the best.

Well, I'm happy with this. Well, Jess, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast thank you so much for having me I think the the reason I gravitated towards you was because I really love this idea of combining spirituality and skincare it's something that's not really talked about or considered that much and I can't there's so many things that I want to talk to you about but I would love to kind of start there in terms of how your spiritual journey ties in to that of beauty and skincare. Yeah. It's funny because I think the skincare industry is like teetering on the edge of delving into spirituality, but in a very commercialized way, like you see the jade

rollers and the crystal infused skincare products. And to me, that's kind of a sign that there is this like internal craving for something a little deeper from the general, you know, skincare enthusiasts, but we don't really know how to put it into words. And so we're leaning on this very like commercialized commodified version of spirituality and it's not really getting us anywhere. And for me, this kind of came into play when I struggled with a lot of skin issues, been through it all. But my last big issue was a case of dermatitis, which is kind of this catch-all phrase that means like your skin is irritated, but we don't really know why. And the general course of treatment is steroids. So I was on topical steroids for about two years. And if you know anything about topical steroids, that is two years too long. So it completely ruined my skin to the point where

I couldn't put skincare on. I couldn't put makeup on. It was, my face was peeling and flaking off, like even washing my face with water, just like burned. And I got to this place where there was nothing left to do, but surrender and kind of try to find other ways that I could heal my skin. If I couldn't put something on it, maybe something I put in my body would help. And so that started this whole journey of, you know, diet and exercise and what are the nutrients my skin is asking for. And then there was a moment where I was like, well, I've heard like meditation and mindfulness can help with anxiety and maybe that'll help skin issues. So I started delving more into this sort of like spiritual world with the intent of healing my skin.

And what I got was obviously so much better than that. I started healing myself. And of course, that translates to healing your skin. But by the time that my skin had seen improvements from some of these practices, like gratitude and meditation and mantras, I had gotten to the point where I had uncoupled my self-worth from what I looked like. And so it was just, okay, great. My skin is cleared up, but that's not what I needed to get out of this. Because I guess the whole, the entire beauty industry thrives on the fact that our self-worth is so inherently tied into the way we look and this obsession with youth. You know, there are people like you in this space. And I think it's really an important conversation to have because you see girls that are incredibly young feeling,

you know, going and getting all this stuff done to their face. There's this the social media phenomenon of like people going in and getting Snapchat filter surgery and all this stuff done to their face there's this the social media phenomenon of like people going in and getting snapchat filter surgery and all this stuff and I've just got to a point where I'm like look I'm not someone that doesn't enjoy the occasional filter but there's like a level do you know what I mean a hundred percent like these are the thoughts that run through my mind as I'm writing skincare features and writing beauty features, because on one end you want to, you know, be of service to people who are really struggling and feel badly about themselves for the way they look or the way that they're aging and they're looking for solutions. But how do you talk about like solutions in a way that doesn't reinforce the idea that aging is a problem? that doesn't reinforce the idea that aging is a problem.

And it's really difficult to do that because it is so tied up in our self-worth. I think a big part of the problem, maybe there has always been this pull towards youth throughout history, but obviously now we're doing it on a global scale. With social media, we are getting approval and validation and beauty standards served to us from billions of people. Our minds were not built to handle that kind of pressure. And then I also think that Botox,

fillers, surgery, you know, all of the things that we do to manipulate our faces has been very expertly framed as empowerment. And that is a construct of the industry. And so we've gotten to this point where now we finally have this permission. There's not shame really attached to manipulating your appearance anymore. It's seen as this like act of empowerment, which really only compounds the problem because something that I've been thinking about a lot lately is like, what might empower an individual does not necessarily empower the collective. Masses. Yeah. Especially when you're talking about women's empowerment. So like we live in a society where there are very real privileges attached to looking a certain way.

So if you do look younger and, you know, quote unquote, more beautiful, whatever society decides is beautiful, you statistically are hired for jobs more often. You make more money, you're treated better in your relationships and your love life, um, in workplace relationships, like these are all real benefits. So when you change the way you look to better fit this ideal, you actually are empowered in the sense that you have more power now. Yeah. But it disempowers all the other women in the world and future generations because it's reinforcing this idea that you have to do that in order to get these basic human rights of being treated well and paid fairly. It's having to be really honest and truthful with ourselves of there is that layer of it that is empowering but if you go deeper what's beyond that and I was actually writing and thinking

about this the other day in terms of our relationship to our bodies and this whole movement that's come around with body positivity and celebrating like a lot of different shapes and sizes, which is fantastic. And also to do with our sexuality, there's a lot more conversation around that. But then it makes me question,

are we reclaiming our sexuality and our bodies or are we re-commodifying it in another way? We're self-objectifying. We've been objectified. And so it feels good to take that power and objectify ourselves. But I think the ultimate goal is neutrality because, you know, body positivity, skin positivity still puts the emphasis on your appearance being part of your value. And everybody's beautiful. What does that mean? You're trying to say that everybody is valuable and worthy of, you know, being treated like a human being, but it's still equating beauty with those things. If we can

detach and say, okay, maybe everybody's not beautiful. Maybe everyone's just worthy. Like we just skip over that part where we have to emphasize my body's beautiful, no matter what it looks like. My skin is beautiful, even if it's broken out. If you just take beauty out of the equation and allow yourself to feel valuable and worthy just because you are, because you're here, you're a human being, like you have that within you already. You don't have to look a certain way to earn that. Yeah. But I guess with that dismantle the entire beauty industry a little bit. Well, yes. And that is like my whole goal is like the industry thrives on insecurity. Even if it's selling empowerment, you have to be disempowered in order for a brand to sell you

an empowering product. So they're still profiting off of your insecurity and your disempowered in order for a brand to sell you an empowering product. So they're still profiting off of your insecurity and your disempowerment. And I do think there are a ton of well-intentioned brands and influencers and beauty editors out there who subscribe to these standards and push them because they want to make you feel good. And it does make you feel good to feel beautiful. But I think the ultimate goal is exploring why it makes us feel good to feel beautiful and how can we separate those two things and feel good even if, you know, our face is breaking out or we're old and saggy and wrinkly. Because you've had a lot of experience within working in the beauty industry and that's how you got to the point where you are

now. And what did you kind of uncover from that experience? Oh boy, it is a machine and there's so much. And I think a lot of the issues we have in the industry today really do stem from misinformation. Like a lot of what we believe to be true about our skin, our bodies, the way we look, the way our bodies even work, a lot of it has come from marketing. It's not necessarily based in science. A good example is, how often do you wash your hair? Well, in the 1920s or 30s, I think it was the founder of L'Oreal, there's this amazing quote

from him where he was like, if we can convince everybody to shampoo once a week, we would sell 40 million more units of shampoo. And so that became the standard and it's only accelerated from there. But before that people weren't washing their hair that often because you don't need to, of course, once you get caught up in the cycle, then you do need to, cause you've altered your body's internal rhythm. Um, and if you go back and you look for these foundational studies, well, why did we believe that? Like they're not there. A really good example is hyaluronic acid, you know, very buzzy beauty ingredient. Everybody says it holds a thousand times its weight in water. There is not one scientific study that shows you topical hyaluronic acid from a bottle can hold anywhere near that amount of water.

Anywhere near that amount. There's not one. And I was writing a story on it. And I went to all these dermatologists who were giving me that statistic. And I was like, can you provide a study? Nobody could find one to give me. So I honestly think the first step to remedying some of these really deep issues of beauty and self-worth come down to just like uncovering the truth and learning the truth of how you exist and what your body does and how you're meant to look and to operate. And that's not going to be like perfect and clear all the time. Like healthy skin communicates with you, a healthy body communicates with you and anything that goes wrong, any pain you feel, any pimple that pops up is a communication

from within telling you like, there's something you need to look at. So do you feel that doing the kind of work that's more holistic and based around mindfulness has had a huge impact on your skin. A hundred percent. And like the fascinating thing about that for me is that there's so much science to back that up. There's even, yeah, there's even a field of dermatology called psychodermatology. So it's psychiatry and dermatology, and it's all about the mind skin connection and the brain and the skin actually form from the same bit of embryonic tissue in utero. And so they are connected in so many like wild ways, like they're like nerve pathways from the brain to the skin and like things like meditation, that's scientifically proven to strengthen your skin barrier, help you hold on to more moisture,

proven to strengthen your skin barrier, help you hold on to more moisture, regulate your sebum levels of the oil you're producing. There are measured skincare benefits to mindfulness. Which I guess would explain why so many skin related problems are connected to stress. Exactly. Like the stress hormone wreaks havoc on your skin. Like it slows production of your natural hyaluronic acid and your collagen. It basically breaks down your skin barrier. It alters your microbiome. Microbiome is the collection of living organisms on your skin. It's like most of our DNA and most of the genes, like in a human body, aren't actually not human. They're from your microbiome. You have a trillion microorganisms, like living on an emu, bacteria, viruses, all of these like beneficial microorganisms.

And they play like a huge part in keeping your skin regulated and doing the job it's meant to do. Like there are microbes that eat your dead skin cells. There are microbes that eat the oil that comes out of your pores. So it regulates your oil production naturally. And so cortisol like really affects all of that. And that's why your skin kind of goes haywire when you're stressed. Wow. So essentially all the things that are, I mean, a lot of the things that are created in the beauty industry, we don't need and we would naturally regulate anyway. Your microbiome and your skin barrier do everything that a skin product does. I don't really use skincare at all.

And then the products that I use now, I've like leaned towards the very natural, organic, like if I can eat it, I'll put it on my face. That's kind of my motto. In the same way, yeah. But then I've got friends that work in the industry and they're like, that only goes so far. There's like things that you need, different kind of chemically things. There's things that you need if your goal is to change your skin and manipulate your skin. you need if your goal is to change your skin and manipulate your skin. Yeah. If you want to treat all of these things and do the anti-aging, you can go the like, you know, powerful synthetic chemical route and you will see those changes. Personally, I don't think that will help your skin long-term over time because the more products you put on your face, the more ingredients you put on your face, even if they're good ingredients, even if they're natural ingredients,

they're altering your microbiome and your skin barrier. And if you read any scientific studies on aging, like keeping your skin barrier intact is the number one thing that you can do to keep your skin protected and supported. You know, most aging is not from biological aging. Like most signs of aging, I mean, they're from exposure. So that's sunlight, pollution, irritants and allergens in your skincare products. The more you're exposed to those things, the more you look like you're aging. And so that makes sense because the older you get, the more exposed you've you're aging. And so that makes sense because the older you get, the more exposed you've been. But if you protect your skin barrier, you have this inherent layer of protection against all of these things that cause aging, you know, a primary category

of those things being beauty products. Beauty products actually damage the skin barrier. A hundred percent. Some of them are like supportive to the skin barrier, but if you're interested in learning more about this, I would look into the microbiome because the microbiome and your skin barrier are kind of these interconnected parts that support each other. That area of research is actually very new. So a lot of these sort of old school rules from like five years ago and anytime before really don't take into account microbiome health. And I think that's a huge part of why we're seeing so many people struggle with chronic skin issues that really haven't been big issues in the past. So do you think that there is a bit of a

wave happening of skin problems that we haven't seen in the past. So do you think that there is a bit of a wave happening of skin problems that we haven't seen in the past? Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, if you ask like almost any dermatologist or cosmetic chemist or microbiologist, like they will tell you the skin issues that we're experiencing today at the magnitude we're experiencing them today, never before in history. I mean, skin issues have always existed to a certain degree but when you add in like the stress of modern living very processed diets plus all the skin care that we're using like it causes like a system-wide breakdown and how how your body supports your skin from within are you quite puristic with what you put in your body in terms of like

the water you drink and things like that? I want to be better about that, but there are so many ways to support your skin and you don't have to do all of them in order to have the healthiest skin that you can have. So I split it into three categories. You can support your skin through your skin and like what you put on topically through body, which is diet, exercise, things like lymphatic drainage, massages, all of these things. And then the third category is soul. So that's mindfulness practices. That's meditation, practicing gratitude. mindfulness practices, that's meditation, practicing gratitude. So you don't have to be like perfect in all of the categories to have healthy skin. I personally love wine and I love sugar and cookies and candy, and I'm aware of how those things affect my skin. And so what I do is I compensate for those things in other ways. And my skin isn't perfect, but it is healthy and it is supported because I know it and I know how to give it what it's asking for when I have kind of like gone off balance in one of those areas.

Yeah. And I guess like essentially what you're saying is it's completely individual. It's so individual. And that's why I think there's been a bit of a backlash against the natural skincare category and holistic healing and things like juice cleanses and detoxes and all of that. People are kind of fed up with hearing that stuff. And I think for a lot of people, the typical advice does not work because you're not typical. Nobody is typical. Your body is so unique and individual and like what works for one person is not going to work for everyone. What was the thing, how quickly did your skin sort of start changing after you approached it from a more sort of 360 way? It started changing very quickly within like a week or two weeks, I saw massive improvements from just doing nothing. I stopped using all skincare just to let my skin re-regulate and kind of get a sense for when I take all the powerful medications and products away, what am I working with?

But the full healing process is, is very long. So I got off steroids maybe close to four years ago now, and my skin barrier is still healing. Because the steroids did a lot of damage to the skin barrier. They did a lot of damage to the skin barrier to like even steroids reach even the lowest layer of your skin. And then your skin just has a much harder time supporting itself because really on every level it is, it has been altered. So it's a really long journey. Sometimes it gets frustrating, but I see the changes happening and I see it getting stronger every day. And that feels really good. Like it feels really good to be connected to my skin in that healing journey. And like, I wouldn't expect to meditate for a week and be completely healed. And you kind of have to think about it the same way for your skin. You're not going to use a product for a week and be healed. Like your skin renews every single day and you get the chance to create your skin every single day. And it's a journey. I lived in LA for a couple of years when I was 27 so it was like at the

beginning of my Saturn return and like it was really interesting observing their culture and the conversation around youth and aging it was like it was illegal it was just you couldn't do it and you know I remember observing women in cafes and gyms and everything. And it was just this like everybody had stuff done. I'm curious to explore this sort of realm of aging positivity and what just a product of the beauty industry or a product of patriarchy. Aging in particular is very related to how our culture measures worth for women, for men in productivity. You know, I think a lot of people have felt this in the pandemic as well. When you're not being productive, you don't feel as worthy.

And you're honestly, you're not treated as worthy. Like we value work, we value output. And the more productive you are, the like the literally more worthy you are, the more productive you are, the more money you're making, you know, it's a function of capitalism. And I think how we view aging is very related to how we treat our aging population. And, you know, there's ageism all over the world. There was a very illuminating article in the Atlantic recently where this writer kind of laid out how we treat our aging population is directly related to how we view worth as productivity. And when you're older and retired and you can't be as productive anymore, and you're not as productive anymore, society kind of just like discards you.

And I think that so much of our relationship to physically aging and looking older is related to this issue of productivity. I mean, for women, performing beauty is a form of productivity. When you are viewed as more beautiful, you are more worthy to society. You know, we talked about how you are getting better jobs, making more money, getting treated better. You're granted these human rights when you are performing this beauty. And that is your worth. And that is your productivity. Well, also on a biological sense that our reproductive system,

it's like that is our worth. And then there's like we, you know, they say like 35, then it dives off a cliff, allegedly or whatever. So there's that kind of built into everyone that you just like become valueless. Exactly, exactly.

I have a real problem with this. Like I am so much more of like value now than I was 10 years ago in like a holistic sense, but why am I suddenly treated like- It's not a coincidence. I have been thinking about this so much since I hit my 30s. And it sounds like maybe you've had the same experience where you always hear women say like, Oh, I felt

so much more confident in my 30s. I was embodied, I, you know, really got in touch with my sexuality, I was more secure than I was in my 20s. And it is no coincidence that we are fed these messages with increasing like levels of alarmingness at these ages, because suddenly you have stepped into your power, but you are feeling worse about how you look and your value to society. And, you know, your value as like a woman and your potential for motherhood and all of this. I feel, I mean, I don't have anything to particularly prove this, but it's beyond coincidence. Like this is a product of patriarchy that doesn't want women to step into their power. So we've created this set of circumstances to keep women focused on something else, something negative, something

negative, something undoable. You cannot anti-age. It's not a meetable goal. If you are attempting to look younger, that is something you are going to do for the rest of your life. There's no product you can use that you're going to use it and be like, okay, I've done it. I'm done with the anti-aging. You are consumed for the rest of your life with this upkeep and your mind, you know, whether you're focusing on it a ton or a little bit, there's, there are parts of you that are not as engaged in your life and in your potential, because you are feeling badly about this totally natural and beautiful progression into a different point in your life and evolution of your life. I also think that there is something to like, you feel so free when you're a kid, you know, you haven't been fed any of these sort of messages about your worth and how you have to appear and what you have

to do and the path your life should take. And I do think that on a certain level, we crave looking youthful because we're trying to recapture, you know, that sort of like uninhibited freedom of youth. Yeah. But like, you can have that you can have that at any point in your life you don't have to chase like your past to feel that like you you can have a future that feels that way too because you do meet some people that are much older but they just exude this sort of youthful vibrancy and it is something that comes from the soul also I think that aging and this is a weird thing to say but I don't think it's linear I have noticed that the way that I'm living my life holistically has impacted how I age and it can go backwards and forwards without me actually

altering my face with any kind of other means do you know what I mean I feel I genuinely feel like if I'm eating really well and I'm in like a space and an environment and centered and grounded and doing a lot of practices that are good for my soul not not just my body it impacts my the way I look and in an equal measure if I I don't anymore, but when I used to go out and drink loads, suddenly I'd look like older the next day. Yeah. Well, yeah. Drinking ages you exponentially, for sure.

I totally agree. I think part of that is this sense of like self-love that you cultivate when you are treating yourself and treating your body well. I guess that would sort of also radiate an energy. The human body is so cool. There are these changes that we can't like see, see or measure, but like on an intuitive level, we do see them. So for instance, like the whole world runs on energy. I know energy has been made into this kind of like woo woo thing, but like that's, that's literally how your cells work. Everything

is energy. Everything is light. And, um, you vibrate at different frequencies based on your emotional state. So there is actually research that shows that when you are in a state of love of acceptance of reason, you are vibrating at a certain frequency. And that vibration admits more actual light. It's called bio photons, I think, this is actual light that you are emitting. And it's not like visible to the human eye, but I think that there is some sort of like intuitive, intuitive visualization that we see in ourselves and in the people around us. So you're literally glowing when you are in these like high vibrational states, like that's just science.

That's not a made up thing. That's what's happening. Also, I think there's really fascinating research on the microbiome to look into here. The microbiome and the chemical reactions that are happening like on your skin constantly, they give off chemicals. That's kind of what like pheromones are, you know, how if you interact with somebody's pheromones, you're like attracted to them. So these are the kind of like biochemical cascades that are happening in the microbiome. And they are implicated in things like falling in love and developing friendships. And I think it's just so fascinating to incorporate that into your understanding of beauty and just realize that there's so much

going on within you that you might not be able to perceive yourself, but really does affect how other people see you, even if they can't articulate it. And I think that's why when you see people who are in their power and so in touch with their soul and so completely like who they are. Even if it's, you know, an older woman who has never done a thing to her wrinkles, you see that and you're like, what a, what a beautiful person. I think there's also a lot to be said about, um, like media representation, you know, women in Hollywood face this type of pressure. Oh my God. Yeah. Exponentially more than the average woman. And, and so we end up with no representation. We don't see those people on a grand scale that we can then model and say that this is possible for me in order for you to believe something is

possible. A lot of times you have to be able to see it reflected back at you. And we really don't have examples of that because the pressure is all consuming and it's even more consuming for the people who we kind of like have put on these pedestals. It's a very vicious cycle. And also these are people that, you know, we, we idolize and they've succumbed to the pressure. So then it's like, well, what do us mere mortals succumb to the pressure. So then it's like, well, what do us mere mortals stand, you know, against that kind of expectation? That's why I have started thinking of beauty and how I treat my skin and how I want to look and the manipulations I'm willing or not willing to do as I get older, not only as a form of self-care, but as a form of community care, I totally understand the pressures of the reality we live in. And if you have to succumb to some of those

pressures in order to feel good about yourself, in order to alleviate your anxiety, I fully understand. I feel lucky that I'm in a place mentally where I don't feel the need to succumb to those pressures. And it is more important to me to not contribute to the perpetuation of these standards. Because it's important to remember that for women, non-binary people, people of color, basically anyone who is not a white man to varying degrees, we are under this pressure all the time to succumb to standards and to look a certain way. At some point, we have to assess our own role in perpetuating those standards. What a powerful shift it would be if we could all decide to not play our own little part in that perpetuation anymore. We're seeing huge shifts in the world

right now that started from very small actions. And, and it's very, it's very possible to change the narrative that we're fed. They can have a sort of snowball effect. So I guess like to focus also on the emotional health aspect with a lot of people getting plastic surgery. And like I echo what you're saying in terms of I have nothing against it. If people want to do something and it makes them feel better than like, you know, whatever, each to their own. But I am I am concerned when it feels like it's more a reflection of an internal problem that they're trying to fix externally and then it creates this like warped sense of self because it's relative to the last time they had something so it's like it's not they're not seeing themselves anymore and I think

that also has the beauty industry and plastic surgery has to be held slightly responsible for that to actually address people addressing their emotional health or mental health. There was a really interesting study that came out not too long ago about plastic surgery and injectables being addictive and they are addicting. We have to think about ethical guidelines there. When we go into the dermatologist for our yearly skin cancer check, and they suggest Botox women have said this to me dozens of times. And it's like, you know, you're a doctor, you take the oath to do no harm. And you are suggesting suggesting or at the very least administering these substances that are actually addictive, that actually have the power to induce dysmorphia

and change the way that you see yourself for the rest of your life. And I don't want to be alarmist. I don't want to be fear mongering. Like I just want to tell the truth about it. You know, I think this like concept of like... What is their incentive? Financial? Well, these things are made by pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, it's a profitable... It's a very profitable industry. I remember when I was in LA and I was having a facial

and she was kind of doing all this stuff to my face and and she was like have you ever thought about having Botox or something and I was like really I'm quite young and she was like well I just do a little bit here and she was like we can do it here and she's like and then I do that and going over yeah my whole face and then she was like and you know we could do just a tiny bit of lip filler and I was like kind of you know I wasn't really insulted but I was like just it was making me curious because she was just like be super subtle just like this you know so and so this like famous celebrity she comes here and she has it and I was was like, oh yeah. And then afterwards, I remember I took

it like over my eyes and I saw this woman. I was like, fuck no, you're not doing anything to my daughter. She's got so much stuff done. I was like, if you think that is subtle, no thank you. Oh my God. And it's like, thank God you had the emotional coping techniques that that didn't really impact your mental health. But so many of us do not. And getting a comment like that can cause such a spiral of just destructive emotions and destructive behaviors like that. To me, to me, that's just not right. You should not be able to suggest something like that. To me, that's just not right. You should not be able to suggest something like that. Yeah. You've written for, you know, some of the biggest publications like Harper's, Vogue. Has there ever been a resistance to some of your messaging?

Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. For every article that's out there that people are like, oh, whoa, For every article that's out there that people are like, oh, whoa, interesting perspective, or she's calling out the industry. There are five more that just never got published, couldn't be published, are just too controversial to publish, don't align with advertisers' interests. I've had articles that have been approved by editors and I start researching them, interviewing people, brands intervene. They'll go straight to the publication. One threatened me with legal action and the story got killed before I, before I even wrote it. So it's like never seen the light of day. Like anytime you shop around up on a site,

you'll notice there's like a little disclaimer at the bottom saying like, we may earn a commission if you buy products, but it doesn't affect our editorial decision-making. It 100% affects the editorial decision-making coming from somebody who writes for these publications some more than others. Someone only told me that the other day, and we were going through all these various magazines and blogs and stuff. And she was like, that would have been paid for that. And I was like, no. She was like, yeah, wake up.

This is all branded content. I was like, oh. Yeah, there's a lot happening behind the scenes to make sure that you are fed the information that you are fed. So that you are fed so interesting because it's like I kind of feel like I came on here to talk to you about one thing but now I'm going to go away just realizing that it's like you start pulling that thread and everything that unravels behind it is so much more complex and so much darker essentially of things and I do want to emphasize that like because this is how

the industry has worked for so long and because there's so much information out there that we believe to be true and because beauty standards are so ingrained that you know adhering to them does feel empowering at times I do believe there are so many well-intentioned people in the beauty industry. There are so many people who just want you to feel good, who are starting brands and are writing stories and are working as beauty editors and influencers. And their goals are good. Intentions are good. The fact is, is that we've built this industry on a foundation of capitalism, is, is that we've built this industry on a foundation of capitalism, colonialism, white supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalizing on insecurities, basically. So when you work within that system, you are supporting that system in some way, no matter how good your intentions are.

There's a lot of work to be done. And it's a lot of internal work that we all, I think, individually need to address before we can actually start dismantling something like this. I think it's helpful or it has been helpful for me to go back to ancient indigenous civilizations and think about how they viewed beauty and how they used makeup as a form of adornment, as a form of communication. Early civilizations were utilizing makeup and they were using it as a way to communicate with others in their tribe. So they would, you know, use certain markings to symbolize, you know, status or role in the community. A lot of the makeup that was used was used to emulate the gods that they worshiped. Like if you go back through religions and spiritualities throughout the centuries, like there's always that

kind of reflection between human's beauty and the beauty of the gods or the cosmos or the universe or whatever you're connecting to. And that was really powerful for me for recontextualizing how I can use makeup and what like a true human experience of makeup is aside from all of the marketing. Yeah. And just like this idea of doing it for yourself just isn't true. Even if you are expressing yourself through makeup, you are expressing yourself for the sake of others. It's a beautiful form of communication to other people. And I think like the first step to changing these things is acknowledging the truth of them. And if we're so stubborn and we are like, I'm performing beauty because it's empowering to me and I'm doing it for me. That's not actually

the real truth. It's not true. I wish I could remember the quote exactly, but I'll find it. It's not true. I wish I could remember the quote exactly, but I'll find it. But it's Margaret Atwood. It's to do with this idea that essentially, even if we think it's for ourselves, everything is viewed through the keyhole from the male gaze. stems you know to beauty but also the way we dress when you you know you see women dressing like very provocatively but they say they're doing it for their own empowerment and it's like I honestly if I start dressing like that and saying it's just for myself cool bullshit I don't want to walk around yeah and that doesn't mean it is bad like telling the truth about the motivation doesn't assign it any value. It's not a good thing or it's not a bad thing. It's just the truth.

And it is not bad to want to express your sexuality to other people. Be honest about your motivations and intentions, and that will change everything for you. everything for you. And I think when we're having these conversations, it's also important to note that the gender binary, the patriarchy, this idea of how a woman should look and be and how a man should look and be is, is damaging to men as well. There is nobody who benefits from this system. Like as for lack of a better word, brainwashed as we are by the beauty industry and what we feel is beautiful, you know, the male gaze, the people who are viewing us, they are brainwashed by that as well. And they have their own toxic masculinity of what it means to be a man and what they should look like, how they should feel, how they should operate.

And I think the reality is we're going into a state where it's all a lot more nuanced anyway which is kind of an interesting space to be in it's very new territory I'd say it's new territory but it is the most ancient territory there is like the the binary and these very strict definitions for male and female and and what we need to be are relatively new in like the history of the world humanity you know makeup was not gendered in the beginning and when it became gendered honestly was around the American revolution and like the tie of the female ideal and the male ideal especially within beauty cannot be extracted from the history of this country which is well I know you're not in this country but you have lived in this country um the history of America, which is colonialism, a massacre of indigenous people, capitalism, white supremacy. Those are direct contributors to how beauty ideals have evolved and how gender roles, especially in the beauty sector, have evolved.

And I think we do ourselves a big disservice when we don't connect all of those dots. You cannot participate in a system that you don't know the history of. And once you know the history of it, like at least for me, you feel kind of shitty participating in it because you're like, what am I perpetuating? What are these standards derived from? Even if they're seen as good today, even if I feel empowered by them today, like the place that they came from is so ugly. Yeah. It doesn't have a place in my beauty routine. Yes. Yes. So toxic. Wow. That is a really powerful note to end on. Thank you so, so much. this has been so informative and educational for me thank you and you know a lot you know your stuff very impressive thank you

this episode really blew my mind I think I've listened to it about five times already and there are just so many amazing takeaways but particularly this idea that to be sold empowerment you have to first be disempowered and that by empowering the individual by participating in toxic beauty culture we in turn disempower the collective now I know this to be true for me it shows how rarely we question the source of things and if I'm feeling this way I'm sure a lot of you listening are as well also this concept of a woman coming into her worth in her 30s while society simultaneously deems her of less value it reminded me of this quote that a well-read woman is a dangerous creature now there are so many layers to this, so many thoughts, so many things

I don't have time to get into now but it has been incredibly thought-provoking and so I hope it has been thought-provoking for you too. Please share it with any friends or anyone you think might find it useful. I think it's important to share these conversations because that is how we dismantle these sort of structures. So go and follow Jess on Instagram. She's become one of my favorite Instagram accounts and has so many eye-opening things to say about this subject. She is at Jessica DeFino. DeFino is spelled D-E-F-I-N-O,

and there is an underscore at the end. A little reminder that we have a Saturn Returns live show coming up, which is very exciting. It's going to be a socially distanced show at the Clapham Grand on the 27th of May. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Varrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor.

Thank you so much for listening and remember you are not alone goodbye