Saturn Returns with Caggie - 3.4 High Sobriety with Millie Gooch

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

In this episode Caggie meets Millie Gooch, author and founder of the Sober Girls Society. They discuss their relationships with alcohol throughout their twenties, social norms around drinking culture, and how to recognise when your drinking becomes a problem. Plus Millie shares tips on living a more 'sober curious' life and how to make those adjustments. This episode is in association with Alcohol Change UK. If you are struggling with alcohol you can find information and support at alcoholchange.org.uk --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Everyone thinks, oh, it's just stopping drinking. It's not. It's like relearning, you know, who you are. In this episode of Saturn Returns, I'm joined by the lovely Millie Gooch, author of the Sober Girls Society Handbook, an empowering guide to living hangover free. Now, Millie gave up drinking

after a tricky relationship with alcohol that led to years of blackouts, overconsumption and anxiety from the night before, which I can relate to. She founded the Sober Girls Society to find more like-minded people who were trying out sobriety too. Three years later, in January this year, her book was published. Now I've discussed sobriety on this podcast with a number of people including Ruby Warrington who

hosts the Sober Curious podcast and also Catherine Gray who wrote The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober. So I love finding more like-minded people in this community that normalize the conversation around alcohol and living a more sober life. Now in this episode we share our personal stories and relationships to alcohol which you may find triggering and if you do you can find support at Alcohol Change UK or contact your local GP. But before we get into this episode with Millie, let's check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Although it's often a Neptune 12th house or Pisces dominant chart

that classically depicts escapist behavior in astrology, it's interesting to note that a chart with heavy Saturn, or Capricorn or even Aquarius, also can create the need to escape as an obvious avoidance of one's natural ability to face reality and all of its pains and triggers. before one's Saturn return, might feel the need to escape certain harsh realities or memories away from the public eye, meaning their friends probably won't know about their unhealthy habits till push comes to shove, whereas a Neptunian person likely won't care whether it's public or not. This is probably why one should always check up on their friends and check up on their mental health, especially around the Saturn return. Either way, any of these behaviors could manifest as using alcohol, recreation drugs in an unhealthy way, unhealthy use of social media, unhealthy relationships or work dynamics as a coping mechanism. On the other side of the coin,

one also could be dealing with self-restricting behaviors such as eating disorders or other forms of unhealthy self-control. We all go through major Saturn transits every seven years, and so Saturn cyclically tries to remind us of different ways to harness our energy and of coping with reality, healthier coping mechanisms. During Saturn Returns, Saturn returns to the same sign it was in when we were born, so at this time it tends to confront us with self-sabotaging behavior in a more stern way.

Not because Saturn isn't necessarily wanting to be stern, but rather because it dislikes wasted energy, it dislikes a wasted life. And the very act of escaping and self-sabotage is energetically draining our life force, the very life force Saturn is trying to help us shape and make the most of as we shed any self-sabotaging behavior that might hold us back from entering adulthood with a stable inner foundation and root chakra. Millie, thank you for your patience. Oh man, it's taken a minute to get us going, hasn't it? It has, but it's fine. Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself for the audience that doesn't know? Yeah, of course. So my name is Millie. I am 29.

And when I was 26, I decided that I was going to stop drinking. So this was because alcohol was really affecting my mental health. So I kind of started my drinking career at university. I always make the joke that I left with a 2-1 in English, but a first in drinking because I was so good at it. And I worked in, you know, a Vodka Revolutions. I worked in a shop bar. I went to Sussex in Brighton. So there was just like this whole seafront of clubs and bars

I could make my way through. And then I kind of left uni. I took those blackout binge drinking habits to my jobs in PR and then journalism. And it kind of got slowly and steadily worse. So I would, you know, go out and not remember large portions of my night, sometimes entire portions of my night. I wouldn't sometimes remember how I got home. And then I started suffering with this real classic fear, fear, anxiety. What did I say? What did I do? Did I call my friend a dick? And all those things that go through your mind. Does everyone hate me? And I kind of noticed that I was getting into this real cycle of, you know, weekend binge drinking, feeling slightly better Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

and then going, oh, it's Thursday. I know what I'll do. Like a goldfish who had forgotten the previous weekend. I'm just going to go out and get really drunk and that's going to stop my anxiety and that's going to make me feel better. And I kind of got into this like real cycle and then towards the end of kind of 2017 I went through a breakup with my ex-boyfriend who I'd been with for six years and I took it very badly and I did what you know we're all taught to do in a breakup which is go out drink as much as

you can end up in a kebab shop crying. So that's what I did for a few months. And it just made me feel so much worse. And I was in this like really bad headspace at the time. And I was just miserable. I had all the symptoms of depression. I was always anxious, just felt like my life was kind of on groundhog day. You know, I wasn't happy in my job. I wasn't very productive. And what I should have been doing was spending my weekends, you know, I wasn't happy in my job. I wasn't very productive. And what I should have been doing was spending my weekends, you know, recuperating and resting. And I was just going, you know, as hard as I possibly could. Wrecking yourself. Yeah, exactly. So February 2018, I went on a night out. I don't really remember any of it.

I know there was tequila. I know there was kebab shop. And apart from that, nothing. And I just woke up the next day and I thought, I just, I can't keep doing this like to myself, to my body, to my mind. I don't feel great. I don't enjoy life. I see no joy in anything anymore. And I, weirdly, I always think this was fate. About three weeks before I was on the tube going to work and I picked up a copy of Stylist magazine and there was an interview with Catherine Gray in there. And it was all about her new book that was coming out that month and all about her journey with sobriety. And I kind of like mentally put that in the back of my mind. I actually, I took a picture of the article and thought I'm going to

read that book. And then, you know, three weeks later, I still hadn't ordered it. But that morning I was like, I'm going to order that book. book so I downloaded it on audible and just listened to it for like the whole day I did the entire book in one day and it just completely changed my perspective on not drinking sobriety you know exactly what it says on the tin it's the unexpected joy of being sober and I had never ever thought that there might be joy in sobriety. It had only ever been portrayed to me as miserable, you know, something you were giving up, a sacrifice. And it never, ever been shown to me as a positive.

So I said that day, I'm never drinking again, which, you know, I'd said about 412 times by this point. So all my friends said it was hilarious no one really believed me and then three years later I still haven't drunk so uh wow you haven't drunk at all no no not since that day so it sounds like it was really easy like one day I just decided I wasn't going to drink again and that was it but you know before that I'd done many sober octobers many dry January I tried to give out for Lent at one point I tried to moderate so it wasn't just that day but since that day I haven't so yeah three years on I mean probably from 25 26 was when I started really like having massive chance of time when I wouldn't

drink I would abstain completely and then I would fall back into old habits. But a big thing for me was I don't have a community of people that encourage that sober lifestyle. All my friends just get fucked up every weekend. That's like, I have no friends. You know, I'll be on my own. And to a degree, I did feel like there was a sort of period of slight isolation. a degree I did feel like there was a sort of period of slight isolation but did you find that I guess like not that drinking is cool but it's like sobriety almost is viewed as a weakness or like you have a problem therefore like you have to give something up yeah it's it's always looked at

as a loss and even the phrase like giving up it feels weird because yeah I haven't yes I have given up drinking alcohol but what I have gained if you could put it all on like a physical scale would far outweigh this this alcohol it is it is for me only ever been a gain so that was one of the reasons so I was about seven months sober when I started Sober Girl Society because I found exactly the same thing everything I looked at um especially online was either very kind of like rooted in AA or it was you know the drinkers as you say there was nothing that was like in between of kind of a lot of the literature I read as well was very like you know stay away from your triggers don't go to parties the first six months you shouldn't even like go around alcohol yeah and I was working in media at the

time and I was going to you know like work events three four nights a week I couldn't just turn around to my boss and be like sorry I can't go which I'm sure they probably would have been supportive of but I didn't feel like I wanted to do that so I wanted to find more like practical information I wanted to find people who were like yeah yeah, actually, you know, I go to fabric until 6am and here's how I do it sober. Like that's what I wanted to find. So that's why I set it up as well. And because everything, you know, all the Instagram pages I saw were kind of like dark

and heavy and focused on the loss and were very like retrospective. And I just wanted to find something that was like, look, you've given this up. Here's this amazing world that you're now stepping into. And here's all the things that you're going to gain. I think people that I've met in AA, and I did end up in an AA meeting accidentally, which is only something that I could see, which was that I was in LA and I was going to get some food from a supermarket and I met this guy who's so like chatting me up I guess and he was like will you come have dinner with me outside and I was like oh okay sure and then as we were talking he's like I'm actually in recovery and I was like oh okay that's cool and then he's like I'm on my way to a meeting and he's like

you're gonna come with me I was like, I don't know if that was cool. Being very English, I just sort of found myself like walking behind him, going in. It was like an abandoned school in Venice. I mean, you couldn't make it up. So anyway, we went into this room and there were just all these people in there. I was like, oh, my God. And hearing their stories was really, for lack of a better word, and no pun intended, sobering because I was like, oh, my God, the level it can get to where alcohol becomes such a monster in your day to day life, even when you are sober, is terrifying. But I didn't care. I knew that I like alcohol wasn't for me and I would get these blackouts and stuff like that.

But I also was not there, you know. for me and I would get these blackouts and stuff like that but I also was not there you know and I think what's so important to address in the in between is like there might be people that could end up there but they don't have to if they adopt this lifestyle and nip it in the bud before it gets out of control yeah you know with smoking you don't I always say you don't wait until like you know one of your lungs collapses before you stop smoking you stop smoking because you know it's bad for you and you know that it's probably heading in that direction and I also use the fire analogy which is that like if you see a fire in your house you don't go it's only a little fire I just wait until the whole house is engulfed in flames and then I'll do something about it but with alcohol that's what we do we're like oh well I'll just something about it. But with alcohol, that's what we do. We're like, oh, well, I'll just wait until I'm that bad. And, you know, we always say, oh, you're not that bad. You're like,

okay, but at what point do we keep waiting and then wait? And then when I am that bad, that's when we say, okay, now enough is enough. Because at that point, it's going to be even harder to stop because you're more addicted to it than you were before. So that's the narrative that I like working on is the, you do not need to get to a certain place with your drinking before you you know either call it a day or really reassess it and also to let yourself get to that point or let other people to the point where it can not irreversible but as in like it does become this kind of demon in your head yeah for me it's like this is a destructive behavior for me because I know

that on some level I associate alcohol as a gateway to dive into like oblivion you know yeah I've always been known to have a an alter ego and I get drunk because that's what I want to talk about yeah in terms of I think people like drinking people love drinking because their inhibitions go and they are able to dance freely. They think they're amazing at dancing. I know that idea would be terrible. They're able to go up and talk to boys or girls or whoever. They're more confident. They think they're more themselves. So that is such a thing that draws us to it from a very young age. That is our way of kind of learning how to socialize. It's like a social lubricant.

is that is our way of kind of learning how to socialize it's like a social lubricant and so what is your way of sort of combating that when you don't have that vehicle to be more yourself yeah it's an interesting one and I I like what you say about the deep I always used to say that I had like a tequila fuel demon inside of me and then really I like started learning a lot about alcohol I became really fascinated with alcohol and what it does and how it affects the brain and and the fact that you know so it affects the prefrontal cortex which is the rational decision making part of your brain so that's why it's actually very hard to moderate so people always say to me like why aren't you sober curious why are you sober and I always say because if I had one or two I probably could do it but I would have to work so hard at it yeah because the

way that alcohol actually affects your brain so even if I said I'm only having two I'm only having two my willpower then is probably quite right I probably only am having two but as soon as you then have those two the way your brain is affected is the rational decision making part isn't there so your willpower is not the same as it was two drinks ago you can't trust yourself two drinks in to stick to what you said you were going to do it's like so many of us like I'm only having one and then you know eight hours later you wake up and you're cradling a McDonald's so it's it's really hard. Oh it gives me shivers thinking about it but you know that's that's really interesting because I I kind of like so many people do you experiment with every kind of way

that you can not yeah you take it out of your life and I do like I just said I I on occasion will have one but like you say if I'm at a dinner party or going to friends I will not drink because it's so much easier to just be like, I don't drink. And for everyone to know that about me, then be like, Oh, I have one because there have been so many times when I'm like, three's my max, three's when it goes wrong. And then I like get to three and try and stop. And like you say,

I suddenly wake up in like, I don't know, Mongolia. How did I get here here I was only having three I have nightmares about that all the time drinking dreams are so common I get them a lot but can we talk about drinking trees yeah I used to think they were the worst thing in the world but now do you know what I actually this sounds really sadistic I quite like them because I wake up and I have panic yeah with the fear and then I realize that I haven't done that and I'm like that is such a good reminder because I think especially I haven't drunk for like three years now I think there probably could be a time when I'm like oh I could go back I've probably nailed this moderation thing now so they're a very stark reminder for me of like no that's not what you want to do

that's I'm so glad that you have that because I've talked to quite a lot of people about it not necessarily I guess that maybe they're not sober or whatever but no one gets it and it kind of felt like because mine are always kind of the same with slight different details and it's that I'm out and I'm at a social event or or party whatever and I'm in a situation and someone's like have a drink I'm like oh I don't know if I should and then something happens that triggers me and I'm like okay I'll just have one because it'll make me feel more comfortable and then next thing I know I am waking up somewhere and there's just like I've just caused yeah people are like oh my god do you know what you did last night and then I wake up with a hangover I wake up my friend and I he has it as well he calls it a phantom hangover yeah and my

mind it takes me like a couple of minutes to realize that that hasn't actually happened and it does cause me a lot of uh fear and like anxiety but like you say it's I think it's my brain's way because there were so many times obviously when I would give up for a bit and like you say be like yeah I can I've got this down and then it's like my brain being like you haven't nailed it by the way so we're going to give you these reminders in case you ever think that you can handle moderation, you cannot. Yeah, it's just like a gentle smack down to her. Yeah, it's like a subconscious reminder of like, we're just reminding of this because we really don't want it to happen again.

Thank you so much. Yeah, mine are very similar, Vaina. I've either upset someone, cheated on someone, ruined like my entire life basically. It's always chaos and destruction. That is the same. And I wake up with a real like, and then I'm like, oh no, it's fine. I'm okay. I'm three years sober. It's fine.

Kind of being sober curious. That was another thing that I think I would find hard about being like sober curious as well is having to kind of explain it to people. When people ask if why you don't drink or whatever what your status with alcohol is yeah like you say well I can just say I'm sober now now people don't even really ask me if I'm going to drink so that's like an easier thing for me it's kind of almost more freeing in a sense that was the one of the main reasons that I said I'm totally sober was because otherwise I felt like every social occasion I would have to kind of combat those questions about are you drinking

it this way are you doing that so that was the only other reason that I think that I probably chose the sober label over sober curious yeah and also some people Brits find like sober curious a bit obnoxious I think I like it I really like it I'm a big advocate of harm reduction so whether that's like dry months or you know drink free days or sober curious sober curious is harm reduction and you know I'm well aware that not everyone in the world wants to completely give up alcohol I've got all my friends drink all my family drinks my partner drinks so anyone being sober curious I get really excited by but I know some people kind of like roll their eyes at the term sober curious yeah I quite like the term intuitive drinking yes yeah I like mindful drinking as well I think mindful drinking kind of started here I

think sober curious kind of was a bit more US and has kind of made its way over here more what is the sort of obstacle you find then in terms of like social events and things like that or have because obviously the initial stages are so much harder because it's like you're having to reprogram not only your own beliefs around it but also how you fit in to the world around you so if your identity piece was very much like a party girl having fun going out clubbing which sounds like yours was yeah mine was as well to then like come back into society in this very different way is quite hard and I think it puts a lot of people off because they're like well who am I without that and also they

don't want to set other people off which it does yeah so what's your sort of tactic on navigating that yeah it is really hard because I think everyone wants that like oh these are my magic tips and this is going to help you and I think there are definitely like things that you can do like practical wise in terms of like you know getting a bit pickier with the kind of places you go to and places you feel comfortable and things like that but it really is just like a process and the longer you do it the easier it gets which hopefully we all like quick fixes but unfortunately it's not really the case but the identity thing was massive for me because my entire persona was built upon party girl Millie my friend just called me generous

Millie because as soon as I had a couple of drinks I would just buy everyone like oh you want you want McDonald's I'll buy it you want a egg mom I'll buy it and you know every meme I got tagged in was boozy every birthday present I got for about five years I could drink so everything about me was like tied up in alcohol so that was like a massive thing and I really had to relearn okay who am I what do I like doing you know like real basic stuff of like I just don't really know who I am without alcohol so that was a process in itself like everyone thinks oh it's just stopping drinking it's not it's like relearning you know who you are and then the other thing in terms of like socializing that I found is you know we call alcohol liquid courage that's exactly what it is,

because when you drink it, it gives you confidence, it lowers your inhibitions. But the next day when that is taken away, that confidence is kind of taken away as well. So being sober has really built kind of like innate confidence in me because I go to things I'm like, right, that was fine. You know, it wasn't the best, but it wasn't terrible. I didn't die. I'm like, right, that was fine. You know, it wasn't the best, but it wasn't terrible. I didn't die. I'm okay. And then you kind of, you know, that next time you can do it. And just over time, you start building a library of social situations that you have conquered. So I've done sober weddings. Yeah, I've done sober hen do's. I've done sober festivals. And just the more and more you do them, the more real confidence you make, because you're like, I did that. That was me. It wasn't alcohol. I didn't need that. that I did that and then you start building this like real innate confidence

so it's more like a genuine confidence rather than an instant synthetic confidence that's in a bottle and that those victories the next day never get old uh well maybe they will do but three years in I still wake up after a night out and I'm like, I'm so happy. I'm so happy in the morning. I know. But what one thing that I do find still challenging is like weddings I've always found super awkward and like drinking for me was just like a, such a way of like it basically making sure I was enjoying it and not feeling too self-conscious and like having all this weird small talk with people I haven't seen in ages. And then getting to a point where I just didn't give a shit and I was just like dancing shoeless on the dance floor cutting my feet open you know and now like it's not that I

missed that but like I don't think I could ever get to that point I don't think I don't know if I can sober when I'm that carefree yeah I think this is a really interesting part of it actually, is that like, because you know, everyone else's inhibitions are lowered, it's almost like you lower them yourself, because you're suddenly aware that everyone else probably isn't looking at you. So then you don't feel as self conscious. So the thing about alcohol is that like, it does lower those inhibitions, you have to kind of learn to lower those naturally so I do think you can get to that point but I think it's an exercise in like all sorts of different things I think it's building your confidence outside of like drinking I think it's doing those weddings over and over again until you've got to a point that you're happy to feel less inhibited. I think it is

learning for ourselves how to be less inhibited so that we don't need alcohol rather than kind of the other way around, if that makes sense. Yeah, that does make sense. Because a lot of people think that if you give up alcohol, like your problems go, you know, and that everything is just happy because obviously people kind of associate it with destruction which it is but then they think well if I give up alcohol everything just be like easy and breezy and that's obviously not the case is it no I mean a lot of people do think oh it'll be like a magic wand and in a way sometimes it has yeah I always say are you a bake-off fan no oh okay well I always say that like when I was drinking everything was like a hard slog so it was like I just had like a manual

whisk and you know I was always working to like keep up with things and my life always felt like it was falling apart and it felt really difficult at all times. But sobriety for me is like a stand mixer that I can like plug in. It kind of just keeps things going. It's a lot more efficient. Things just work a bit better, but you still have to make the cake for both. There's no like skipping. You can't just like pull it out of the fridge. You still have to do it. So you still have to do all those hard things. You still have to experience all those hard emotions. But for me, it is just a lot easier and a lot more manageable when I feel on top of things a bit more on top of my emotions, the clarity is there. Like my reactions, I always used to just instantaneously react to things like triggers or just anything. I was a lot more like stressy and angry and now I just feel like with that clarity you know you

have time to reflect on things more and I mean generally you just have more time for like self care looking after yourself all those kind of things and I just feel like everything is more manageable it doesn't go away at all you still have really terrible days you still have you know days where you think oh god would my life be better if I was a drinker but ultimately I do I don't have those days oh my god but more like you know like would it be more fun if I could just hit this fuck it button and you know go off but I see what you mean yeah I think you you like it can almost feel like it is harder because you have to like sit with uncomfortable emotions and work through them rather than just being like, here, this is that. I can avoid them.

Yeah. There is that. It is. But on the whole, everything is more manageable. And, you know, you just have a greater clarity and understanding, I think, of things. It's so true. You have to learn to sit in the discomfort of what you're experiencing because it doesn't stop bad life experiences happening it just means that

rather than running away from them or diving into a bottle of tequila you have to kind of face them head on yeah and that can be challenging if you're used to avoiding them which I definitely was oh 100% it's it's like avoiding anything it doesn't go away so you still have to you still have to go head on to it but it is almost just with a massive it sounds a bit like I don't know clinical but it's actually just a lot more efficient processing your emotions when you don't drink because you're not delaying anything you're like okay I see it I'm going to tackle it head on. And you know, then it's done. So it's, I think, easier. You have to get around to it eventually. It's not going away. You have to

deal with it at some point. So sometimes the faster you deal with it and with a better, you know, clear head on, the easier it is, whether that's like heartbreak, grief, a terrible day at work in terms of its correlation with mental health which is something that I think was probably the most key component to me having to cut alcohol out of my life it's something that I've struggled with and it was like putting gasoline on the on the fire a little bit but then you know what was interesting is initially when I stopped you I did feel a bit like a superhero for like eight months or something and just you know I had so much energy I was so productive I felt really

good in myself and my work I was like on it and then it kind of dissipates after a while and then it becomes the new normal which is kind of a weird thing now I you know the idea of giving myself like a hangover every week I don't know how I'd survive but um in terms of the mental health part I do still on occasion struggle with depression and I always found that I was like oh that's annoying because I really thought it would just go completely it's definitely a lot more manageable yeah and it doesn't come as regularly but what has your experience been both on a personal level and also from what you learned from researching alcohol and its connection to um the mind I guess yeah so I think I'm exactly the same as you I had that

kind of like six months of euphoria so have you heard of the term pink cloud no so that's what they call it they call that the pink cloud so it's the first initial stages of sobriety or sober curiosity or cutting out alcohol which is you know feelings of euphoria you feel great because it's initially the the fog has lifted um and then like you said it becomes the new normal and then you're like oh okay and then your pink cloud slowly dissipates so you've been through your pink cloud now which you can say yeah sorry sorry about that but I was exactly the same and then I kind of you know started getting all those symptoms again and like you said it is more manageable when I was drinking

I found it really hard to manage anything like that anxiety depression whereas when you don't drink I'm a lot more like reactive to it so I'll be like okay I know what I need to I need to like need to have a nap I need to eat healthy today I need to do this I need to do that I'm a lot more clinical about kind of like managing it rather than wallowing drinking tequila coming out eating a dominoes exactly I'm a bit more like okay I know what I need to do to kind of like push through this and make it slightly easier on myself but in terms of like the mental health aspect it's kind of twofold so there is like the research that shows that you know it does exacerbate anxiety and depression and the problem is drinking and mental health is very hard to untangle they say it's a

bit like chicken and egg it's hard to diagnose which one kind of came first because a lot of us will drink because we feel anxious, that will increase anxiety, then we drink because we feel anxious and it's the same kind of spiral. So that makes it really kind of... Or we're anxious because we drink, you mean? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because drinking exacerbates anxiety and then we think to quell that anxiety, we need to drink. So you all of a sudden get into this like really quick cycle of it and the same with depression as well and there's you know lots of links with kind of self-harm and especially mixing alcohol and drugs can increase risk of like suicide and things like that so there's the real like chemical scientific evidence so that's like the direct effects of alcohol

mental health and then for me there was a lot of like indirect effects as well. So, you know, blackouts being one in that I couldn't remember portions of my night. I couldn't remember what I said. I couldn't remember what I'd done. So that caused me a lot of anxiety because I was like, oh God, everyone hates me. Did I say this? Did I spill that secret? Have I ruined my chances at work and all that? And then also the indirect in terms of, you know, when I was hung over I avoided speaking to people so I would isolate myself I wouldn't go outside my curtains would be drawn for the weekend I would eat Domino's pizza for breakfast you know I was financially very anxious because I'd spent all my money on Jager bombs the night before so there's

kind of like twofold to it. There is the real direct and then there's all these indirect things as well that come along with kind of drinking and blackouts and shame. So it's very twofold. So I think the thing that you definitely eliminate is that kind of like the consequences of things. Yeah.

And there's the shame bubble that was like constantly around me. I don't know about you, but I used to hate going to bars that I'd been to like the week before because I'd be like oh god what if they remember me and I used to have to go back because I used to leave my handbag in the class I mean this is like way back in the day but I used to pretty much every night out I had the next day would wake up without a handbag and sometimes without shoes and I'd have to go back to nightclub or whoever would be like oh my god it's you again so that that was definitely

like one thing that I absolutely eliminated so I always know where my handbag is and well I say 99% of the time know where my handbag is now and that's just lovely like you're not having to worry about those like checking my bank account and being like what did I spend because I remember when I spent it that doesn't mean that I'm you know really rich now because I just spend it on like ASOS and things like that but it just means that I know where my money went where rather than like you don't care at the time no you don't you don't the weird thing about it is you don't really think beyond the night. No. So Professor David Nutt, he used to be the government. I love him. Yeah, he's amazing. He was fired for what he

believes was saying that alcohol was the most harmful drug in the world. So his rationale is that, you know, there are drugs that are more harmful to the user, but not necessarily to society. So like smoking doesn't really have much of a correlation with increased domestic violence yeah whereas alcohol does alcohol affects crime it affects sexual violence domestic violence all of those things it's tied up in and even there was um i think it was a few years ago now they released a report about how much we lose in the economy due to people being like hung over and not going to work it was like 21 million or billion or something it was a big number but all those things that we don't really think about I mean it costs the NHS

3.5 billion a year so that is it's a lot of money and all those things together make it the most harmful drug because it's not just a user, it's to society. What do you think then is the reason that it's so normalized? Because obviously it's a hugely profitable industry. But have you kind of gone back to the origins? Because like you said, with a lot of these beliefs, we don't really question where they come from or why we behave in that kind of way. But when you actually do a bit of research and dig a little deeper, you like huh it's because a certain few are benefiting from this or you know I don't know if you want to go into conspiracy lane that people want to keep us numbed out or I don't know what are your what are your kind of thoughts on on that yeah I do like that that one I mean the last

chapter of the book is is kind of a bit of a activism call to action chapter and I interviewed Richard Piper the CEO of Alcohol Change for it and we kind of talked about you know the alcohol industry and and why are things the way things are and they are a very powerful industry it is super super profitable they can operate in a way that a lot of other industries cannot. It's a very interesting industry, put it that way. And they have a lot of like, ties with kind of, they're very powerful, they've got a lot of money, they can influence government. So say things like, you know, the warning labels on cigarettes, people have been lobbying to get those on alcohol for a long, long time. And it's just been blocked and blocked and blocked. But, you know, the alcohol industry are very clever marketers.

They manage to take things that we can do authentically. Like you said earlier about friendships, they've managed to kind of like take friendships. And then I always say they've packaged it back to us as a bottle of rosé. Like it's. Yeah. But this is what I'm saying about actually like we don't as a society think about the consumer aspect to so many of our beliefs. Yeah. So what I wanted to ask you about is sober dating.

Yeah. What has that experience been like for you? Because obviously that is one where people like, you know, their entire dating lives kind of revolved around the lubricant of alcohol I so I have actually done drunk dating and I've done sober dating so I feel like I have good comparison but do you know what my experience of sober dating was so positive I went into it thinking everyone was going to think I was boring I was never going to find anyone who accepted it. And actually, I was nicely proved wrong because I would say about 95% of people were really nice about it. And a lot of people, you know, thought it was great

that I had the confidence to come on a date sober. I think they actually found it quite impressive, if anything. You obviously get like 5% of people who will say things. I mean, Catherine Grace says it best in her book, which is that telling someone you don't drink is the ultimate dickhead detector which it is because as soon as someone says anything negative like that's boring or that's that then you know that they're not going to be aligned with the type of person that you are so if anything it just saves you going on a date with someone who's probably going to be an absolute horror absolutely it really does like

eliminate a lot of people quite quickly which is a is a blessing because sometimes as well when we drink it just completely skews our view on like what's really going on and how a person really is because you think everyone's wonderful I haven't had that many experiences of it, but there was one date that I went on where we did go to a bar and I made the mistake of not saying it before. And so when we got there, I was like, I don't really drink, so I'm not going to be drinking anything. And he just was very perplexed by the whole thing. And he proceeded to drink an entire bottle of red wine without any truth, just to himself over the course of about 40 minutes and I was like even for me in my heyday that's quite aggressive and um he just would not let it go and it is a

bit of a dickhead detective because if someone can't accept that about you and doesn't respect that that's a decision that you've made then like fuck him yeah and I always tell them up front not just for them but for me because then I you can go into it feeling more comfortable because I I think if I'd have waited to tell them I would have been like stressing beforehand which isn't how you want to go yeah you you want to go in quite relaxed thinking okay well I know that they know now so I always told them straight away it I tried to bring it up not too early like hey great to match with you by the way I don't drink but like try and get it to come up naturally but it's more important to me that someone is like more aligned with the kind of like lifestyle rather than actually having to be sober so as in like I

want to be with someone that on a Saturday you, might want to go for a morning walk or do something. I think I'd find it very hard to be with a party animal who like went out weekend after weekend and like spent a lot of time hung over. That I think I would find difficult in a partner, but having someone who drinks doesn't bother me as long as kind of they're more on that sensible, sober, curious side. side yeah because it can also be quite challenging at the end of the night if you're like okay bye and you go home and they kind of stumble in at 6 a.m you're like you stink yeah it's not that fun um yeah so how old are you now 29 to. So this has actually been something that's happened to you over your lunar cycle, I believe it is. Yeah. Versus your Saturn return, your lunar return, sorry, which is like quite an important pre-Saturn return experience.

So you should have a pretty seamless Saturn return, I'd say. I think you're all right. Apparently I'm at the end of it now have you had an astrology look at your birth chart my friend's very into it and she told me that I'm at the end of my Saturn return apparently have you felt it I think so because I think there's been a lot of changes like this year especially like after writing the book and then being like okay what do I want to do now so there's a bit of a life kind of shake up yeah that's good but you know the sort of the philosophy behind it is if you listen to those sort of pings um at that stage of life at like 26 and action them like you did it makes this process a little a little easier I decided to ignore them all I was like I'm just gonna go with a standard stick my head in the sand approach

came for me like a punch in the face but um you got there eventually it's fine I got there eventually exactly I got there eventually but um one thing actually I wanted to ask before I let you go is the friendship piece in terms of the the process of like losing friendships over this time and the kind of grief in the morning we experience and how you know you can be completely aligned with someone at one point in your life and then over quite a short space of time just really feel disconnected from them and alcohol can be quite a big component in in that um what are your sort of thoughts and experiences on that subject yeah I mean I would definitely say like my friendships have changed, but it is kind of like we will do

different things now. So I would say it's changed for the better, but definitely at the start, I had that real, like, no one's going to want to speak to me. No one's going to want to do this. And I think I had to be quite proactive about it. I think, you know, going to bars and going to clubs is like a default. That's your default for a birthday. That's the default for any kind of celebration. So I started like suggesting other things that we might do, like let's go axe throwing or let's go whitewater rafting and actually kind of changing the things that we were doing as friends.

And they really responded well to that. So we do loads of like different stuff now as friends. And I think that has only strengthened our bonds. I think we operate as friends now on a different level because I think it's like in the same way you build that confidence. I think when you take alcohol out of a friendship, I think you can build those real like strong bonds because you know that you're not tied by alcohol. You know that there's something deeper that's tying you together.

But I mean, there's a whole chapter in the book on friendship and I spoke to a lot of people actually who kind of said that they weren't as lucky with that experience and that some of their friends kind of weren't really aligned with their they're not drinking and so they've had to like find new friends and learn to let go of those which I think is okay because I think if someone doesn't support your sobriety they don't support you and it's a really tough lesson to learn and I think there's probably people who haven't been as supportive of my sobriety and naturally they've just kind of like floated out my life but I think you have to be prepared that some people may not be aligned with it I think it's more as well that when you take it out you might realize that actually that was the only thing holding you together and then you have to kind of question you know is that the kind of friendship I want anyway because actually

we're not really aligned on morals or values or lifestyle choices and things like that so I think it can be hard but I think this day and age it's it's so easy to find other communities and other friends and especially in the sober community like there's so many places you can go to find people who are kind of like aligned with what you like doing and things like that. So it is a shame, but that does happen sometimes. And I think once you step into that space and make that commitment to self, people, and I know this sounds a little bit woo-woo, but people just show up that are on the same wavelength. And by doing things, you know, that are of interest same like wavelength and by doing things you know that are of interest to you and then you meet people in a similar space and stuff like that so actually I the friendships

that I've made over the last year are some of the best friends in my life and you know they don't know me as someone that ever drank so it's like like, it's not even a thing, which is kind of quite nice, actually. Yeah, it's quite nice as well. I think to have friends who have no idea about like that part of you. I've got friends that I've met through doing this, who are my absolute best friends. And we do talk about like our past selves. And we do do it with a sense of humor. But also, I'm like, I'm quite glad that you've never seen me in that state. And even my boyfriend has only ever known me as a non drinkdrinker I didn't know him before so that's quite lovely to have a fresh start which is nice I know that's that's the same for me actually my best friend's always like I just when I hear about this version of you I'm just like I can't get my head around it right well I'm kind of glad you never saw it anyway Millie thank you

so much for joining me it's been such a pleasure to talk to you and I hope that we get to have you back on the podcast soon oh thank you so much for having me we need to we need to see each other in real life as well when the world opens. I loved having this conversation with Milly and I always enjoy having conversations around alcohol and exploring a more sober curious life and you know like I mentioned the way that I approach it is you don't have to suddenly go completely teetotal I think it's just about exploring your relationship with alcohol and whether that is something that needs to be addressed lots of you message me about this privately and you know I'm always here if anyone has any questions around the subject as is Millie so I hope that it inspires some of you to live a more sober curious life yourself

you can find Millie on Instagram at Millie Gooch or at The Sober Girls Society, and her book, The Sober Girls Society Handbook, is available at all good bookshops. And if you would like a reading with our Saturn Returns astrologer, Nora, you can find her at Stars Incline. We have a live show coming up on the 27th of May

where I will be speaking with the wonderful Catherine Gray, who Millie and I discussed in this episode. So if you haven't got a ticket yet, there's still time to get one. The show is happening on the 27th of May. Simply head to dice.fm and search Saturn Returns. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you could share it with your friends or anyone you think might find it useful. And if you could leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, that would be great. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production.

The producer is Hannah Barrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, you're not alone. Goodbye.