Saturn Returns with Caggie - 3.5 Independence, Perfectionism and Letting Go with Niomi Smart

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

In this unique episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie is joined by her friend Niomi Smart - influencer, YouTuber and founder of Smart Skin. Caggie and Niomi discuss how our Saturn Return can force us to reassess, make changes and let go of things that are no longer serving us. It's an episode about heartbreak, truth, inner knowing and getting back into alignment with our authentic selves - and how even though some experiences might be painful, we have to trust the universe and its plans for us. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. But now I look back and I just think I will be stronger, you know, in the long run, that in a way it's not the end of the world. I think it was probably one of the best things that's ever happened to me. But at the time, I didn't see it like that. Now, today's guest is a dear friend of mine, and this is a rather unusual episode, and you'll see why in a moment. But I am joined by the lovely Naomi

Smart, whose career blew up in her early 20s when she started making YouTube videos. She is a renowned lifestyle influencer, YouTuber and now founder of Smart Skincare, a sustainable, natural and vegan skincare line. The first time me and Naomi spoke was last summer. She was engaged, planning a wedding and her life had a clear trajectory. I told her about Saturn Returns and some of the things that might be in store for her. So I was doing my research and stumbled upon a website where you enter your birth date. What website was it? I don't know. Top one on Google.

I was like, just Google, when is my Saturn Returns i was i was kind of thinking oh i wonder when mine was and you know what happened during mine so i put in my birth date and it comes up saying oh so yours is between march 2020 and march 2023 and i was just literally like what i haven't had mine i'm in it right now you're in it right now I can't remember which episode it was but I remember listening to one of your podcast episodes and you were saying how your Saturn returns doesn't necessarily need to be turbulent it kind of depends where you are and where you have been through throughout your 20s right yeah and I'd say I'd, from like an outside perspective, like you and I probably experienced our 20s in very different ways.

I think you're probably right. So I feel like mine was like the headmaster coming to take me to his office being like, right, you've been doing fuck all the last decade. You need to get yourself in order. Whereas I feel like you've been like incredibly disciplined throughout your 20s and perhaps it would be more of a sort of solidifying of where you're at I think you're right um to a certain degree I think throughout my 20s especially I have felt relatively grounded and I do feel like I've discovered astrology and spirituality um to a certain degree and I do feel

very aware of that so I think I have tried to lift my 20s feeling a little bit more like aware um why do you think that was I'm not sure I think I went through quite a bad breakup in a way I mean it wasn't that bad as bad as any breakup goes I suppose but that was in my early 20s which was like first love yeah 100% and that and I've been with him for a long time so I feel like that was almost like an awakening moment of okay I actually need to look after myself and that made me so independent and I had such a great time like on my own after that and I feel like that's probably when I discovered spirituality I started yoga and you know crystals and things like that and so your breakup was the sort of like catalyst

for moving more into that space I think so I think they often are yeah and I don't have any regrets about it as such but looking back I just think you were so young like why did you have such a long relationship at the age of like 17 18 throughout the whole of university like and beyond and I mean and I actually I have no regrets because it was amazing while it lasted and was absolutely the best thing at that time we just weren't meant to be because I'd say your experience is quite unusual in the sense that you had like quite an established career from a very young age. And that was also connected to the relationship, wasn't it? Yeah. And I absolutely wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if it weren't for that relationship.

So like forever grateful. I definitely went through a stage actually kind of struggling to come to terms with why I was still doing it. Because I was going to say, was it like a natural draw that you were like, this is my path, this is my passion, this is what I wanna do, or was it something that you kind of fell into and then it just started flowing and you were like, I'm gonna go with this?

Definitely fell into it at the beginning. I mean, I was so young and it was basically just having fun and games just for the sake of it. And- Just making stuff, just making content. With friends, yeah, just like vlogging. And it completely just flowed and I had no agenda.

And you mentioned it a couple of minutes ago, but I find this idea, especially to do with your Saturn return, this concept of purpose, I think is something that really comes into play. It's like our 20s are quite mercurial. We're sort of like messing around. Yours were a lot more anchored, I'd say it sounded like. You were a lot more anchored I'd say it sounded like a lot more you were a lot more grounded but I like being able to move around a lot and not being tied down to things whereas you like love like kind of commitment yeah this is home I feel safe and I think it is kind of down

to control I guess what I was getting at whether like through having something that's really established and like quite steady flowing throughout your younger life made you feel like, OK, I feel grounded and centered in like what my purpose is or whether it has its own disruptions, too. It definitely had its disruptions. Like I was saying earlier, when I found myself in this amazing group of friends and my partner at the time, we fell into this world of social media. And at the time, absolutely wonderful. And then almost overnight, it felt like it just took off. And suddenly brands were wanting to work with us. And suddenly there was actually the prospect of a career in it, which is amazing to be so young I mean I must have literally been like 2021 when this started happening and to go from a university graduate with no money and not knowing what to do with your life to suddenly like okay so like what I've been doing for the last few months online

I can actually get money from it and you'd think I'd be super happy right but it took me a while to actually come to terms with it it was this weird sense of guilt or I wasn't worthy of this like you weren't deserving I wasn't deserving of it yeah and I remember being like but I don't deserve to get paid for that because I like it too much and like no one gets paid for something that they like doing because I think I'd studied law at university so I thought I was just going to have to sit in like an office for the rest of my life and suffer I completely relate to that but I wonder where that comes from I've thought about it quite a lot over the years um because I did eventually get over it and I realized actually how did I get over it I think because I actually started having to work really hard

for the reward and as soon as I saw it as work I acted like it was work and I was like right okay so this is my career now and I'm going to come up with a schedule and I'm going to have a Monday to Friday job and like okay so it was like more actually to do with the architecture and the discipline that you installed into it yeah it was like this has value yes I've been thinking about this recently and it's like I've spent so much my time thinking that things needed to be more complicated than they are but this pressure that we're supposed to know exactly like who we are and what we want from from almost pre-university it's like you have to pick your life now yeah and commit and I really struggled with that because I was

never the kind of person back then when I was really young to know what I wanted to do and then when this all fell into place it felt right and then you know it became a job and it's become a career and it's amazing okay and I want to ask you a little bit about because you touched on like your relationship in your early 20s but how have your relationships been like throughout your 20s especially your late 20s has there been big shifts um or has it been quite steady massive shifts like massive in my 20s um so I had the six-year relationship that ended at the beginning of my 20s and at the time that was a massive heartbreak and it took me a while I think to get over it without realising it

because I completely pushed that aside like almost from that day first day from the day the breakup happened from the day of the breakup I pushed it aside to the back of my brain because that was my only way of knowing how to deal with it and move forward I could not face my emotions around that time but then it came back and obviously backfired and then I was suddenly like left a mess like three months later like oh it'll come to you it'll come to you one way or another I think now I'm like just just go straight into it literally like if I were to go back I would just tell myself just face it just sit down and think about how you're feeling right now because I feel it out and feel it and listen to yourself and give yourself and your body what you deserve because you need to

be comforted right now where I just powered on I said I'm fine I'm fine don't even ask me how I am and I think to a certain degree, I kind of was. I found my own little flat and I felt super, super happy in there. And you did have a career. Had a career. I felt. That you could throw yourself into. I felt independent. Yeah. I didn't need anyone. And I think I just went a bit far. Like, I don't need anyone. I'm fine. And then suddenly I was just like, oh, that was a pretty big thing that I've just gone through and I haven't faced it and it's like my emotion yes absolutely like delayed onset of the breakup it was yeah not great but completely needed it and I grew as a person and it meant that my future relationships or relationship um I was a far more mature person and in the relationship I'm a

completely different person I think we're more united who I'm with now my fiance Joe we're more united in the relationship but also independent at the same time if that makes sense like we're completely comfortable and confident in each other like Like having your own life as well. Did you start slow? With Joe now? No, it was a massive whirlwind. Was it? Yeah.

Like I've never actually believed in love at first sight until I met Joe. I've honestly never felt anything like it and I mean when I've heard people speak about what it means to be in love and you know all those feelings and everything I thought I knew and then I met him and I was just like whoa this is a whole other ball game like it was like I'd known him my whole life and so we didn't go slow but also we didn't rush into anything like I feel like we were sensible but still just completely infatuated in each other I honestly never met anyone like him or felt anything like that before how did you guys meet funny stories so my friend my best and oldest friend, Charlotte, had recently gone through a breakup at the same time as me.

And she asked one of her friends, George, oh, if you have like any single friends. And he set up a blind date for Charlotte and Joe. No way! Anyway, Charlotte calls me after this date and she says, Naomi, you're not gonna believe this. I was like, oh, what, did it go really well? And she was like, not calls me after this date and she says, Naomi, you're not gonna believe this. I was like, oh, what, did it go really well? And she was like, not for me,

but I've just met your future husband. And I was like, oh my God, I love it! No, but I was furious at the time. I was just like, don't be so ridiculous. You've just been on a date with a guy. And also I wasn't looking for a relationship. I was just like, no, I'm fine. Yeah, exactly.

I was like, I'm fine. Like, don't be so ridiculous. It's fine. Anyway, for a good like couple of months, he was convincing me to meet him. I was like, no, that's just weird. And then there just so happened to be like these drinks in East London with George,

the guy that had set up the blind date. And I remember meeting Charlotte uh on our way to go for these drinks and she's dragging me along the road because she's like Joe's there come and meet him and I was like I don't want to go I don't want to go don't do this um and then as soon as we arrived and met Joe and we started chatting I was I was I knew I was in trouble I was like oh no she was right she was right um yeah and that was nearly four years ago and then it just was went from there yeah just went from there was it pretty like easy and plain sailing it felt so easy because I think other guys that I've met

I like worried about you know am I saying all the right things do I look okay like oh does he like me or you know whatever like the general things that go through your head when you like first start dating or whatever and you're a bit nervous a bit nervous a bit insecure and stuff absolutely whereas with Joe I didn't feel any of that I just felt completely natural like I could just be completely myself I didn't feel like he was judging me in any way and yeah it's amazing that's so nice would you say then that you feel like you're quite an independent person yeah yeah how would you sort of suggest cultivating independence because I think a big thing about Saturn returns is like becoming independent whether or not you want to be and that can be a bit of a rude awakening if you're not, if you're not like doing the things that.

So I'm just going to basically be on my own after my Saturn returns. What do you mean? Because if you, if you gain independence and I'm already like kind of a little bit. No, everyone leave me alone. No, no,

it doesn't work like that. Like you said, like you might not even feel anything that turbulent because you are quite a stat it like reinforces like what's already there yeah so for you it might just be it might just be great it might just be solidifying the way you're at i'm so intrigued i'm so intrigued for literally the next couple of years like what is going to happen but i think it was like the best experience for me but it did feel like quick it's still I still feel the residue of it of like these quick fire lessons though for sure yeah basically and

when when you did realize that okay this is my Saturn return this is why I'm feeling like this this is why my life has been turbulent for the last few months did it provide any comfort in that you knew you were more aware of yourself and your world and astrology definitely yeah because it was like you realize that the universe isn't working against you it's always working for you the pain is what sculpts the clay like you can't unfortunately just be an established person with your values and integrity and sense of self just by like easing and breezing through life you need to have those experiences that make you who you are absolutely and I just think Saturn Return is like just quite a big one yeah it's quite a big one of like an assessment of like have you been cultivating these things and actioning it and it's

not that it's there to tell you off it's just to make it's just to put up a mirror really and it's like a like a filtering system it's like all those things that you were trying out perhaps that relationship that you were in it's like if it's not right for you it will go like that but i believe that like such a big part of that is the resistance we put in as well so when we try and like hold on to things for dear life that just aren't right for us that's when like the real fucking unbearable pain happens whereas if you just can kind of hold your hands up and be like I trust that this is happening for me and it will become clear soon I don't know exactly when I don't know exactly why but I think we all look back at our experiences and go that at the time felt so horrible.

But I'm so glad it happened. Definitely. And also, I think a lot of people, myself included, can have a lot of guilt around things that didn't work out the way that you had planned or other people had planned. Give yourself a break. And give yourself a break. You can't do everything perfectly. I think that's one of the biggest life lessons I've learned in my 20s. It's okay to not be perfect.

Because perfect doesn't exist. I think if you're a perfectionist to such an extent, you're never going to be happy with what you're doing. You miss out on the joy of life. Absolutely. Yeah. That's something I've tried to learn over the years. Would you say that you are a bit of a perfectionist? Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And I very much like to stick to the plan. So I've learned. But it's like maybe your thing will be like the universe being like, we've got a plan, let go. Yes. That'll be like the ultimate test.

That's just my idea of health. The second part of this episode, things changed. Saturn did have different plans for Naomi. Because within a week of recording, I got a voice note from her, telling me that her and Joe had broken up. My Saturn return has begun, I remember her saying. And so we decided that when she felt ready, we would re-record. In this second part, post-breakup,

Naomi shares her experience and everything she learned about perfectionism, independence and how we can romanticize things. It is a true Saturnian breakup and although it's painful, you will soon hear how much she gained and how much she has grown. But before we get into it, here's our astrological guide Nora who can explain a little bit about how Saturn affects matters of the heart. Saturn exalts a Libra, meaning Saturn does really well in the sign of Libra. Libra is ruled by Venus and Venus rules love, so it would be fair to deduce that Saturn loves love. But there's a catch. The Saturn in every chart, Saturn within us, loves love on the

condition that it's a fair love, a just, mature, authentic, enduring type of love. One that is able to withstand the natural challenges and winters of life. So this is not necessarily the type of love that we're looking out for during our teens or earlys. If during your Saturn return or any major Saturn transit, you're in a relationship that isn't aligned anymore with the adult you're growing into, Saturn will likely throw a few stress tests at the relationship during that time to see if it can still transform into a relationship that is going to make it for the long haul. If your needs have changed from when you first met your partner and you're no longer on the same page, then this transit will force some type of change, often in the form of a breakup. But if both are resisting their inner knowing, then this transit can translate into a relationship

that ends in a more painful way, a more slow death, leaving both feeling a bit disillusioned with love. The major lesson really goes back to trusting one's inner knowing and intuition and to allow what doesn't align anymore with one's path for it to go in peace so you can make space for what does align. It isn't all doom and gloom though. Some people do meet their partner during their Saturn return or they even marry them during that time. It all depends and goes back to the space we've created in our lives to

be able to receive a love that is fair and just and mature and enduring, the way Saturn meant for us to have all along. Naomi, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you for having me again. This is technically the second time we're doing this oh I can't believe that we're here again has this ever happened before no I can't say it has can we explain to the audience a little bit about what went down okay what happened so we recorded the podcast at the end of July in 2020 and I was very much quite smug about the fact I hadn't had my Saturn returns and everything was great and rosy and I was engaged to be married and I thought I'd met my prince charming and I was really you know singing his praises that weekend That weekend. That weekend, a sophomore dance is coming. I know it. You did say that.

You were like, okay, you might find a little bit of turbulence over the next year, but let's see what happens. And I was like, maybe, maybe. Because you'd also not heard much about it before. I didn't know much about it, no. And I turned 28 in May last year. So this was a couple of months later, three months later. And it was literally that weekend that everything completely imploded. Like my life turned upside down. My fiance completely out of the blue left me.

And I remember calling you a few days later and just being like, abort mission. Don't post the podcast because that's not really my life right now. I know. I remember getting that voice note from you and just being like, and you were like, my Saturn returns, has begun. My Saturn has returned. And it's come like a motherfucker. I mean, I had no idea it would hit me this hard and this suddenly

three months after my 28th birthday yeah yeah I think also how it how it impacts relationships and the kind of breakups you experience during this time are notorious for being particularly um like a guillotine oh completely I mean the problem that I understand now that we had is that I think when we met a few years ago we fell for each other very hard very fast and it was a complete infatuation on both sides and I just turned a blind eye to anything that didn't quite fit the mold of us being this perfect couple not necessarily for what anyone else thought but more just how I felt I think I completely fantasized the relationship and we put each other on this pedestal to the point where

the issues and problems that we had we completely turned our backs on we were in denial just like yeah we're great we're great we're great and even the whole proposal the engagement felt magical because it fits the story the story what was the proposal well now I look back and I shouldn't say this it wasn't as you know magical as it probably as I was. But at the time, we were in Rye and it was on the beach. I really want to go to Rye. And it was very laid back, casual. Were you surprised? Completely surprised.

Didn't see it coming in a million years. And I actually always thought I would. So I was completely blown away. And it felt very emotional and I was unbelievably happy and to be honest like I was until everything turned upside down last summer but I look back now and I can completely see everything for what it really is and this isn't you know anything wrong with him or me it was just the relationship wasn't as perfect as I had fantasized it to be and it's just quite scary really how you can turn a blind eye and then as soon as this all

happened I saw everything crystal clear yeah everything crystal clear which I think is why I was able to actually not move on quickly but recover and heal in a way that I think has allowed me to grow as a person. And I feel so unbelievably grateful that this has happened to me because I do feel stronger. And I feel, I just feel like I've got to know myself on a deeper level more than I ever have in my whole life and that might be my certain returns yeah so would you say that's like there was actually a part of it you were like okay I actually have got my own back absolutely I feel like I've rediscovered myself and strangely I feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders that I never knew was there.

I never knew I was feeling this weighed down. And I still, I don't really know what that was. It was probably just the fact that I was potentially in the wrong relationship. And I have no regrets about the past at all because of how much I've now learned about myself and relationships and what I want, what I don't want. So I wouldn't take any of this back at all in a million years because of the lessons learned. But it is interesting looking back to think, how did I convince myself that I was so happy and living this perfect life when I met Prince Charming, when things weren't right? when things weren't right and I do feel like I felt pressures societal pressures in my mid-20s more than I do now which is interesting very interesting I don't really know where those

pressures came from whether it was friends or family or you know just generally what was happening around me but now because of what's happened I very much feel like I just want to go with the flow I'm not putting any pressure on myself to meet someone to get married to have kids of course I do want all of that one day but actually I just feel so much more relaxed about that and that is incredibly liberating actually I think that that is quite a um a common experience actually even though it sounds like it's the wrong way around but I think because we're so conditioned from quite a young age to think that by 30 everything has to be in place so there's that bubbling awareness at 25 that you have those five years to really find that person and like solidify all

that stuff so you do often end up pushing things that aren't necessarily quite right. The way I like to call it is like shoehorning someone into your life. And you're like, you know it doesn't fit, but you're going to shove it in anyway. This will work. We will make this work. And the longer you go down that path with someone, to abandon that takes a huge amount of courage and it often takes something quite abrupt and hard for us to actually go back on the right track. Absolutely. And I mean, I didn't see it coming. I genuinely did think we would get married. I truly believe that. And you would have and I would have and I wouldn't have left him but it has taken that shock for me to really shake myself up and take a good look at myself

and actually what is it that I want and where do I want to go in life and not only with my romantic relationships but with every relationship in my life and my career and I feel like I am seeing my life with so much clarity more so than I think I ever have and that's purely based on everything that happened last summer but I did surprise myself the way that I responded I just knew as soon as it happened right I need to look after myself now and with previous previous breakups, I've denied it, pushed it to the back of my mind, and it always comes and catches you up. Oh, yeah.

Always, always. So this time I was like, right, I'm not making that mistake again. I am going to journal. I'm going to speak to a professional about this. I'm going to speak to all my friends and family as much as I can. And all of those things collectively have just helped me immensely. And yoga. I've got to actually really credit yoga.

Yeah. Okay, so two things that you mentioned that I want to touch on. So in terms of you, you said you'd never really thought about what you wanted before, which again sounds like an obvious thing that we all know what we want. But we don't. We don't really give ourselves the opportunity like what do I really want from my life from my relationships platonic or romantic or whatever that might be so what did you learn about what you wanted from this

experience and what you don't want so I think back to the whole fantasizing about the perfect relationship I think I'd almost laid that out that path out in front of me from a very young age. How young do you think? Well I grew up with just my mother so with it being just my mum and I I almost always set myself the goal to have more of a conventional family life and you know have the big white wedding and be completely whisked away and meet my prince charming and have kids and live in a lovely house and I must have done that from a very young age I mean it goes back to the whole like Disney era right like of totally that that was the goal basically to be like this Disney princess with her prince charming to be saved not that I like back then would have even considered what it all meant at all I just thought no I really want a

husband and kids and a nice house like yeah that's what happiness is that's what happiness and success is yeah and I think subconsciously I took that with me throughout my adult life and then when I met Joe it was this complete infatuation like from like both of us it was such a hard fast love it just felt like okay that I've met him that's it done like goal complete it was you were introduced through a friend weren't you yeah yeah and the friend was like I've met the person that you're gonna marry yeah that almost set the tone for the rest of the relationship before I'd even met Joe I was told I've met um your future husband Naomi I think I was completely blown away by the whole thing. It fitted this mould.

It was complete lust and infatuation. And I think I convinced myself that it was everything that I'd ever wanted and needed. Whereas now, I appreciate that actually, that doesn't mean happiness and success. That comes from within. And I've really used this time to go inwards and get to know myself on a deeper level. And I've never given myself that time and energy and love towards myself. I feel like I've always given off so much love and energy and time giving it to other people and when that was taken away that person that I was you know giving all of this to it had nowhere else to go other than inwards and that was incredible actually to think okay I can really

use this time to look after myself to heal and get to know myself you really lent into it so like what would your tips for anyone navigating a saturn matthews breakup or a breakup of any kind be because you really did deal with it like a pro i must say this is the first time that i've dealt with a breakup in this way and i think it really is based on what I've learned previously because previously I did that typical thing of just brushing it under the carpet just you know move on uh pretend it never happened and you'll be fine but it does always come back to bite you um so based on that experience this time it was agony but I thought I am really going to face this head on and lean into it and it was a pain I don't think I've ever felt in my life like just like physical pain I felt like someone was sitting

in my chest I felt like my heart had been ripped out but no matter I couldn't sleep oh I've never experienced insomnia but I don't think I slept for at least a month, maybe two. But as much as that was pure agony, it was vital and so necessary. Because what had happened was so sudden, it was such a shock, that I almost had to treat it as grief. It is grief. It is grief. Yeah, I had to grieve the relationship. And it really, it really did shock me and I think you know going from one day thinking your whole personal life private life is mapped out and you know the wedding is booked yeah like wedding was booked you know we're planning houses kids blah blah blah and then within a few days that's taken away from you and you're back at square one.

That was incredibly confusing. It's making my, I'm getting that feeling in the start because I know what that feels like, but it's literally your whole world that's turned upside down. I couldn't believe it had happened. And every morning you wake up being like, please say that was a dream. It was the worst feeling. Yeah, you have throughout the day, actually, just that reminder. I'd have split seconds or minutes or whatever of being distracted and having normal conversations

and forget, and then suddenly it would hit you and it was just like, wow. Like, just, I've never felt anything like this before. And you were still so in love with him. Interestingly, I was so shocked that this happened, that even in those initial days, I just thought, this is completely it because I'm never going back to someone that treats me like this. So, of course, like I still loved him. But I think, yeah, I knew this really is it. Like I'm not going back.

Because the behavior was just, yeah. Yeah. is it like i'm not because the behavior was just yeah yeah which in a strange way and it is also it's very saturnian but like it's more of a blessing to have something that's so there's no alternative like you are walking away from that situation versus when if it continues to be sort of like the odd thing but you're not that sure and you're like okay we can work through it it's almost worse because you see people doing that and you're like it's wrong trust me they can't see because they're in it yeah whereas if the person does something that's just like unforgivable yeah you have to just it's literally you or them absolutely you have to choose yes and I completely chose myself and I was so

lucky to have the most supportive friends and family around me and that really did get me through but in terms of the things that I did to to get over the breakup and get through it and heal journaling and I know it sounds so cliche but honestly that helped me so much people always say to me that they're like I don't know how to journal and it's something because I've done it my whole life and I always write you know with breakups or when I've been in love whatever it's always been a lot of it's in poetry and it's just like a stream of consciousness and with your songwriting as well exactly so it's a way to kind of like alchemize the pain or at least get it out of you but people often say how do I do it so I think when we say like journaling if you could be like a little bit more specific

about what works for you yeah people might find it handy well I don't really have a proper system I don't think I journal correctly but there's no correct way there is no correct way I actually hadn't journaled before this um really yeah I would have thought you were an avid journaler considering that was your go-to and one of my really good friends has always journaled and she's always told me to do it and I was just like oh I just you know oh I don't have time and I don't know what to write and I don't know how to journal as soon as all of this happened in the summer I hunted down an empty notepad in my parents house found one and it was just a plain you know lined paper notepad picked up a pen and I just wrote down exactly how I was feeling and I did that for probably three or four months and I still do that now daily all day every day

and night I was just like scribbling away if I couldn't sleep I would just pick up my notepad sometimes it would still be dark and I would just like probably eyes closed still be just writing. Mad squiggles. I'd wake up in the morning and just be like what was this really profound. This. But it really helped just to write down my feelings because I think sometimes when we're feeling angry or sad or anxious we can just brush it to the back of our minds and forget it even an hour later whereas writing it down yeah writing it down kind of gets it out and you can understand yourself a bit better and I think this is really how I've allowed myself to get to know me on a deeper level because I really have just been writing down how I feel I'd also write lists um I wrote no one finds these lists lists of things that weren't

right about the relationship about him it's brutal like as petty as the little things may be everything really helped and it sounds really negative but it just kind of switches your mind from looking back on a previous relationship and through rose tinted glasses rose tinted glasses yeah which I think so many of us do and actually seeing the reality of it it's like well that wasn't perfect and I mean if it was you wouldn't be in this position right now so something was wrong you're not together because you're not supposed to be together because if we're supposed to be together you'd be together if that was your person they'd be showing up as your person yeah and I think we do especially as women fixate on these things that you know that person is not behaving

like they are your soulmate so they're probably not you know what I mean like perhaps they'll show up in a different way at a different time. But ultimately, you have to go off the behavior you're receiving in your reality. So I think writing things like that affirm the reality rather than the fantasy is super important. Absolutely. And I think a lot of us can look back through rose tinted glasses, because we have something in us that hopes that we might get back together. Or, you know, you can't demonize that person because what if you do get back together and, you know, things were great and you were great together. Whereas I think because I'd decided actually this really is it and I, you know, I can't ever go back. That allowed me to actually just think about the bad things

because I didn't care anymore. I was like, we we're not getting back together I don't need to be nice about this person completely secretly like obviously this is only in my journal and with the whole outer world with my friends and family I try not to speak negatively about him and I actually genuinely don't feel any negative feelings towards him like when I think about the relationship now I don't feel any negative feelings towards him like when I think about the relationship now I don't feel angry I feel forgiveness and which is so free thankfulness yeah yeah it is freeing it's allowed me to heal yeah because I've I hear sometimes people that have had breakups that happened years ago and the way they refer to their partner is always very telling because it's like if you're holding on to that animosity that's a heaviness for you so actually you're burdening yourself more than anyone else by being vicious and we do tend to you know want to villainize

someone in in a relationship's demise and we oscillate between being like the villain or the perpetrator all the time and I mean I think in your situation it's like it's quite clear but also we also if we can always hold that there are two experiences simultaneously going on in two stories you know so it allows you to be like well that person did whatever whatever they needed to do for their reason we may never fully understand it but I always try and trust that like someone does the best they can with the tools and self-awareness they have available I don't necessarily think that people are out to hurt us especially someone that's loved us but they just are doing what they can with what they have available do you know what I mean and

it often is disappointing but that's just part of the human experience so I think it's such a liberating thing to be able to let go of that yeah and not hold on to it because like you say it's freeing and it's a heavy thing to carry and it's not yours to carry absolutely and I think that's when you can move forward carrying this weight on your shoulders and it's just not healthy and you can eat quite easily if you still feel that anger and resentment towards someone you can take that through to your next relationships so this is kind of like complicated question but it sounds like you pretty much instantly had the awareness of like this isn't going to define

me this isn't I'm not going to harbor this I'm not going to hold on to it and these are the steps I'm going to take and I had a very similar experience when I went through my breakup during my Saturn returns and again I can only speak from my own experience so don't let me project onto you but that because I've noticed now the residue of things that I thought I hadn't carried any of because I was literally like I forgive that person that's their stuff they need to deal with I'm moving on unscathed sort of thing and really lent into the necessary things that I needed to do to heal and to transition through that grief but I'm only noticing now a year on and potentially because of getting involved in another relationship all these things kind of reappear yeah like little fragments of the past and so I guess my question is like how does one truly not carry the burdens of the past in when they are when they fractured your heart in that way yeah

do you know what I mean I don't think we ever forget to be honest I think I will always carry this with me in some way or another that is a really hard question to answer because I don't know what's going on in the unconscious mind like maybe part of me deep down is still really hurt and actually I think that would make complete sense because you can't just go through an agonizing heartbreak trauma trauma and then be completely healed and fine a few months later and I understand that actually a lot of people that have gone through heartbreak that may be listening now it might sound like I'm saying you know I've done all the perfect things and I'm absolutely fine and it didn't bother me it completely affected me it It was agony. Like I'm not going to sugarcoat what it was that I had to go through. I think that whole period I was probably the unhealthiest I've ever been in my

life in every way, mentally and physically. It was just awful. And I think that's when I really picked myself up and I thought I really need to get through this. But, you know, it wasn't all me. It really was my friends. My friends went above and beyond, like whether it was voice notes at random times in the night or coming down to my parents' house with like self-care packages or allowing me to stay with them. You know, one of my friends with a newborn baby put me up in their house and you realize how important friendship is until those moments unbelievable yeah I feel almost guilty that I didn't realize it before to be honest I completely agree and in a funny way

that summer was probably the most loved I've ever felt in my life. And I just lost what I thought was the biggest love of my life. But I felt so nurtured and cared for and loved. And that's what got me through. And that's what inspired me myself to also care for me. And I think that is how I've got to where I am now. Would you say that that was one of the main takeaways from the experience then that the value of those relationships actually? Completely yeah I will never take any friend for granted

and family. It really brought my family together. Were they incredibly supportive? Unbelievably supportive. Just went above and beyond. And it wasn't just a shock for me. It was a shock for them as well and friends. No one saw this coming. So we really got through it together.

And also I think one of the other biggest takeaways is that you don't need another person for your own happiness that really can come from within and it should come from within actually and I have been so fascinated by this whole concept of your Saturn returns because when we last recorded the podcast I really thought I'd got away with it I know just didn't happen to me I must be you know just one of the lucky few but I am actually slightly concerned though because I am still 28 I've got two more years of this to go yeah yeah I hear you but that is like the main thing you know my my breakup happened towards the end of mine and it was like being drop kicked in the face but it was the best

thing that ever happened to me in a weird way because it just kick-started so much because I was just like I'm not living for anyone else ever again but now I look back and I just think I will be stronger, you know, in the long run. That in a way it's not the end of the world. I think it was probably one of the best things that's ever happened to me. But at the time I didn't see it like that. Like all Saturn's lessons, you're like, at the time it's the worst thing and then after it's like actually i gotta learn quite a lot from that so we hate saturn at the time and then we love saturn at the end exactly so how would you say it's changed your approach to going into relationship

now and in terms of what you look for in a partnership and and whether not to project that fantasy on too early you know so I think going forward my main priority is to actually just relax and just go with the flow just take a day at a time stay present stay mindful and yoga has been amazing for actually staying present I completely fell into a very structured yoga routine throughout last year and that led to me then doing my yoga teacher training course but yoga is really a way now for me to completely stay present and I think it can help like if you are a daydreamer or a fantasizer you need something to ground you and recenter you so I think in terms of yeah my next relationships I want to just stay as grounded as possible but also not expect too much and not go hunting for anything actually one thing that I highly recommend for everyone is to take solo trips away, even just taking a day or a weekend to yourself.

Yeah, just do whatever it is that you want to do, even if it's staying at home in your pyjamas, light a candle, have a bath and just look after yourself. We all need that time. A hundred percent. Well, thank you so much, my love. Is there anything else you'd like to add? You've given so many pearls of wisdom. No, I think that's great. So lovely chatting with you for the second time. For coming on for the second time, a true Saturn returns breakup in real time. Thank you so much, Naomi. Thank you. I got shivers when I listened to this conversation. I'm so grateful for Naomi, for her honesty.

And, you know, I truly believe that everyone comes into our life for a reason. And at the end of the day, we are all each other's teachers. Since Naomi and I first spoke, she has become a dear friend of mine, and I am so grateful for that. We often romanticize things, and fantasy can sometimes cloud our reality. Saturn is all about the truth of the matter. I had a very similar experience at exactly the same time as Naomi when I was 29 and it's crazy how on time it was and I remember thinking when she and I first spoke I wonder what will happen. Now I could never have predicted what happened to me at 29 and I'm sure

Naomi couldn't either and yet those painful experiences were both opportunities for us to grow, for new friendships and new experiences and it can be painful but when you surrender to it rather than resist you can just trust in what's going to unfold and what's meant for you won't pass you by. I love how honest Naomi is about her story and how we can create a story that blinds us sometimes from the truth but also that she wouldn't change a thing and she has rediscovered herself in this process. You can find Naomi on YouTube and Instagram by searching for Naomi Smart. You can also find me at Kagi's World and if you would like to have a reading with Nora,

you can also find me at kaggy's world and if you would like to have a reading with nora our astrological guide you can find her at stars incline on the 27th of may we'll be having a saturn returns live show at the clapham grand in london where i'll be speaking with the wonderful katherine gray you still have time to get a ticket and you can find them at dice.fm if you enjoyed this episode i would love it if you could follow the show and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or just tell a friend about it. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Barrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor.

Thank you so much for listening. And remember, you are not alone. Goodbye. much for listening and remember you are not alone goodbye