Saturn Returns with Caggie - 3.7 Relationships and Love Languages with Mark Groves

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Mark Groves is a 'human connection specialist' who hosts his own podcast and has a huge following on Instagram @createthelove, where he shares his ideas. He calls his work ‘no BS relationship advice’, and his big belief is that loving is an art which must be learned, practiced and explored. In this very personal and vulnerable episode, Caggie and Mark both share their own stories and experiences of relationships, love languages, and all things concerning matters of the heart.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. When you say, hey, I want to work on this, how do you know when it's right or when it's not? It's when your partner says, I want to work on it too or not, which they're welcome to say no. I am so excited about today's episode and today's guest.

Before I even conceived of doing this show, I wanted to have a conversation with this person. And so it was such an amazing experience for me to get to do that. And that is the wonderful, one and only Mark Groves. Mark is a human connection specialist and host of Create the Love podcast. He calls his work No BS Relationship Advice and his big belief is that loving is an art

and it must be learned, practiced and explored. As well as talking about self-work and relationships, he also likes to look at some of the more academic aspects of the self and relationships, for example, attachment theory, which is about how our relationships in our childhood affect and inform the way we go about our relationships in our adult life. We discuss romantic relationships and how one navigates conflict. And a big question that we explore is when is it time to leave versus when is it time to stay? Because relationships are about work. And what's so interesting about what he's created is love and relationships are something that we all struggle with,

we all experience, we all desire. And yet we are taught nothing about it. As we grow up, we just have to learn as we go. And so much of it is imprinted when we're children. He just invites you to explore yourself and how you show up for things and perhaps how you might be able to do something differently and it's all a process of learning and discovering more about you and every relationship offers that mirror to self now this conversation is a very vulnerable one for me, and it was very healing for me, actually. But I hope you take something away from it, because I think this guy is just such an incredible teacher and so wise.

And I love everything he has to say. Before we get into it, let's quickly check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Feeling restricted or more burdened is one of the main feelings associated with the Saturn return. We become aware, sometimes painfully so, that we need to slow our roll and revisit our choices and the choices made for us up until that time. Saturn favors experience over hypothetical notions of what our true abilities are and so so during this time, we learn by experience and we learn it the hard way. The aim of it, though, is not to punish us, but rather to open our eyes and hearts to the strength we possess to walk ourselves through a tougher, restrictive period of our lives. The very strength we don't

always recognise in ourselves, but somehow always seem to find in others. We are being taught to be brave and patient with ourselves, to have boundaries but to not live on self-defense mode. We rediscover our hearts and get a chance to make a U-turn towards a life path more authentic to us if we so choose to. Between that time period of 28 and 30, we're all grown up, and so we have to accept the blessing of self-governing our lives and our role in relationships, even if this comes with difficulty having to press reset or making hard choices. The avoidance of making a hard choice is a choice and it's a disempowering one.

One that robs us of our autonomy and the rewards that come with making choices that would liberate us from living under the illusion that the power isn't within us the whole time. And so although the Saturn return does come with a lot of life lessons that we learn in a hard way, it is one of the most empowering transits of your life. So to the audience that doesn't know, because I could just dive in and like, I have a thousand questions for you, but would you be able to explain a little bit about who you are and what you do? Yeah, sure. So I teach communication relationships. You know, I, I tend to focus more on romantic relationships, but that's only because they're a magnifying

glass really to the things that we don't do well. You know, so if you have like bad boundaries at work, you're going to have real bad boundaries in your romantic relationships. The thing that's unique about romantic relationships is that we're often willing to take a look like that is often, I would say most often the subject of our relating that we're actually willing to pause and say, I want to figure out how to do this better. And so, you know, it's a way to open the conversation to then figure out, okay, how do I heal me? How do I figure this human thing out? And gosh, that never stops. Let's be honest. That never stops. And I think something that I personally struggle with, and I think a lot of people do, is supposed to last forever actually creates relationships that are prisons because we're afraid that they're going to end. And when we're afraid they're going to end, we're afraid to do anything that might end them, which is actually the very things that we need to do, which are conversations, conversations that fracture the old way of thinking, that fracture the former beliefs the relationships were created upon. And, you know, when you think about like,

why are we in that space? Well, think about how we look at relationships. We have a hierarchy to relationship status, which is that if you're married, you're better than someone who's engaged. And if you're engaged, you're better than someone who's dating. And if you're dating, you're better than someone who's single. And God forbid, if you're divorced, you sort of get lumped into this pile. That's where I would argue that the, you know, one of my favorite qualities or life experiences of my partners is her divorce, because it's what woke her up. It's what she learned so much from. And they are people who actually rebelled against a system they were taught. They actually chose themselves at the cost of exile. I mean, that's the kind of partner I want, depending how the relationship, they were like cheated on their

partner 10 times. I don't want them. And that's the reason they got divorced. But if they did that, and then they dismantled why they do that, then that's a whole other thing, right? And so also look at how we celebrate anniversaries of relationships as if conveying that relational length is this marker of success. Well, when I woke up to asking these questions, I realized there are so many people in their 80s fucking hate each other who have been together forever. And they're like, we took commitment seriously. I'm like, you took prison seriously. So there's this balance of how do we create relationships that are not places of self-abandonment and

imprisonment, but rather places of freedom and sovereignty, which is a totally different way of thinking about it. It's a totally different mindset. Right. You know, I think choosing a partner, if I'm supposed to expect that that's always supposed to be easy, I'm like disconnected from reality because my partner sometimes gives me feedback that in that moment, if you said, are you enjoying choosing your partner right now? I'd be like, no, give me 10 minutes because I'm going to need that to integrate the feedback that is probably the truth about how I can be a better human. But right now I'm feeling a little inadequate, so I don't want to choose her because she makes me face my inadequacies. Well, that's ultimately what relationships do. If you're willing to face your inadequacies,

then you're willing to drink the wisdom that's in them. And that's what partnership offers. And so when is the work though, actually self-abandonment? I think that's the ultimate line. If you're used to being in relationships where it's always at the cost of yourself, you're going to keep doing work and keep not feeling satisfied. And I think we need to start to learn where is the work actually meaning I have to leave my own body and my own self? And where is the work actually causing me to expand? And that's a big difference. As in, if you have, I guess, a sort of conscious partnership or are trying to create a sacred union that does require that self inquiry and that work and having to really examine those parts of you that a relationship puts a spotlight on in a very uncomfortable way. abandoning act as well, which is such a tricky one, isn't it? Because I think you can fall into a pattern, I think, with people when you are just like, it becomes critical versus expansive. I think there's that line between self-abandonment and self-sabotage too, which is if I have a hard

time letting people in or actually choosing good partners or allowing someone to love me or give me feedback, I likely will self-sabotage. Like I'll leave the relationship. I will be like, man, this isn't working. I just, you know, there's too much possibility here because we haven't touched the fringes of our own pain before. And so we're afraid that if we open our hearts, we're opening to the unworthiness that they're going to witness.

So let me just take care of this relationship before you do, before you witness how much of a fraud I am or whatever it might be. And it just shows you how much like relationships are the deepest mirrors to what we haven't resolved, what we haven't healed. It's so important that we do the personal work, of course, to recognize, do I leave things too soon? Do I handle conflict in a healthy way? But you're still going to have to go to conflict and handle it in a healthy way. Avoiding conflict doesn't make you healthy.

Well, you can intellectualize it all you want. Right. You know, I always ask people when someone says, like, how do I know if I stay or go? I'm like, well, is staying or going abandoning yourself? Which one is abandoning yourself? And for some of us, leaving will be abandoning ourselves. You know, I always think when the relationship is asking more of you, and I think we need to add a little caveat here, which is if there's abuse or you're dating a narcissist, leave. We're not talking about those relationships

because often people hear, oh, I have to do more work. It's me. No, you don't have to do more work. You have to go save yourself. And there's plenty of, you know, there's lots of support out there. In that other context, though, of relationship where someone is like, should I go? Should I not? How do I know if this is the right relationship? You know, I remember being at that spot in my relationship with Kylie and just asking myself, like, do I have more to learn here? Is this actually done? And immediately my soul was like, yeah, you got more to learn, like buckle up, you know, and you have to be willing to step into that level of discomfort because every next level of relationship is going to require a new level of you that you actually don't know exists yet. So that's why it's so terrifying because I know that the next level of our union

is going to require some sort of skill set I don't have yet. That's for sure. And I can't wait to figure out I don't have it. I'm sure she'll tell me and then I'll find out. But I recognize that relationship continues to be this invitation because I see it as a gift to know what I'm not good at.

Yeah, and I think that a trap that a lot of people get into is they'll be in a relationship that's, it's not perfect. And there's clearly fundamental flaws that probably would suggest it's not right for them, but they think, well, I'll just stay until something better comes along. But I'm kind of a bit of a believer that actually, if you really believe in that you can get what you deserve, like what you truly want, then you will allow the space in between, you know, that you'll be able to leave a relationship

and trust that you don't need to jump immediately into the next car sort of thing. No, you definitely shouldn't because you got to assess what sort of mechanicals you need to do to your new ride. Like how do you care for the next relationship? Because ultimately you're the co-creator of your previous relationship. So we love to blame it on our partner, but I mean, we're a hundred percent responsible for our 50%, which includes choosing and tolerating. We're not asking more from ourselves. You know, I think a lot of the times when people leave relationships too soon, it's

because they don't know how to do, they're not willing to face their thing that is required to get to the other level. Look, I think that any two people can create a healthy relationship. It's just that both people have to want to. If one person wants to, it's not a fit. And that is the level that we have to be willing to live with, depending what we want to create in our lives. And I think we're so used to observing previous generations, which had so many different things that were going on in their lives. Like my mom grew up really poor. Her dad

died when she was seven. My dad grew up really poor. Like to say to them, like you could do anything you want. And they probably would have, I probably would have got hit with a stick in the head, you know, like get back out and pick some more hay or whatever I, what my dad had to do, you know, and when we observe settling, we think settling's normal. And then what happens too, is we begin to hang out with other people where it's normalized, where it's normalized that we complain to each other about our life, but we don't change our life. And then we have wine club and we just drink wine and complain about our lives. And we anesthetize it. Because if you're in a group of people whose values are, we actually don't tolerate you being out of integrity with yourself.

tolerate you being out of integrity with yourself. Like if I had a friend who was in pain in their relationship, I would say, do something about it or don't or leave, but like do something about it. You talking about it doesn't change anything. Put your money where your mouth is like, put some effort in. Don't tell me, tell your partner. They're the ones who need to know, you know, and, and when we do something about it and when we're in a group of people who value that, who say like, I will only allow the best version of you, which means sometimes the best version of you is going to cry and be going through hard times

and be angry and maybe be angry at me. But I'm also going to call you forward to your integrity always. And so if I had a friend who's complaining, it's to me, like, how do you actually get into alignment with you? And how, because when you're out of alignment in your relationship, so is your partner. Mm-hmm. Something that I want to touch on as well is about rightness and wrongness in relationship. is about rightness and wrongness in relationship and i think that we get caught up in this idea that one of us has to be the perpetrator and one of us has to be the victim yeah and you you talk

about this thing of like being able to hold two truths which i think is such a profound thing because we do so many relationships fall apart because essentially we're like, well, your story nullifies mine, so I can't even listen to it. Rather than being able to hold space for your story and accept that that is true for you and that that doesn't mean that my experience is devalued. Yeah, I think if I'm in relationship with someone and their experience of, let's say, coronavirus is completely different, how do I hold the space for their difference, which doesn't invalidate my view. It actually will likely broaden it. And for me to understand what are all the things that have occurred in their life that fuel their position versus mine, and that would be true politically. That would be true religiously. That would be true in anything. To me, at least, I think the reason is, is that we can't hold the complexity of our own contradictions within ourselves. Like there's a part of us that, let's say we're like hyper-religious, there's probably

a part of us that's really righteous and like good and moral, you know, quote unquote. But there's also a part of us that probably likes to check out some porn sometimes and jerk off and do, you know, and so how do we hold the complexity for our own selves? You know, because usually when we're afraid that another point of view invalidates ours, we double down on ours rather than being flexible or fluid with what we believe because we're afraid because our identities are tied to our beliefs. You know, and, you know, think about how hard it is for us to bring in new information that contradicts something. Our beliefs are really how we see the world. You know, I think one of the most painful and probably hardest things that it took for me to recognize till I did was that when you learn something new, like a new piece of wisdom, a new way that you self-abandon, and maybe people listening to this are like, oh shit, I've done that. We look back upon our whole lives with the new knowledge and then experience what life could have been like had we known that thing.

And so we often, that's too much to hold. So we collapse and we go back into, we drink, we buy things, we do whatever to avoid what the pain is actually inviting us to, which is to expand. And so we regret a life having not lived, not realizing that ahead of us is a life awaiting to be lived with these new awarenesses. I think kind of what you're talking about, how it resonates for me is essentially we can't deal with the shame that we feel that comes up when something actually calls us to have a different story, you know, that we don't want to look back at our lives and think, we feel ashamed of having thought a certain thing or behaved in a certain way or having a pattern of behaviour.

And the awful thing is we prefer to continue it than actually acknowledge it. And I think such a key component to anyone's healing is to address the way that we process pain. And in order to process it, we need to not identify with the shame piece at all. Because when we are in a thing of shame, we're not going anywhere. And I was thinking the other day that I was just writing about it because it was coming. The subject of shame, as you're're talking about was coming forward for me. And I was thinking about how if you don't have a capacity for shame, you won't be able to have a capacity for connection at the same time.

But to be in a healthy relationship where you're being told the truth about who you are, you're going to experience shame. Because your partner is going to say to you, when you didn't show up the other day or when you did this, this is how it affected me. And healthy shame, which is a real thing, says, oh, there's a better version of you available. And if I don't have the capacity to sit there and hold that truth, I won't be able to hold connection at the same time. I'll be so busy protecting the part of me that's afraid of not being enough that I won't be able to hold connection at the same time. I'll be so busy protecting the part of me that's afraid of not being enough that I won't be able to be open to. I was thinking about conflict.

So where we are in conflict with another. And personally, I find this hard not to become overwhelmed and for my emotions to hijack the situation. And that for me manifests in like a very tearful display. So how do we navigate that space of conflict without trying to manage our own nervous systems and not get overly emotional to kind of scare and terrify the other person

or make them feel too responsible versus shutting down? Well, I think the difference, one, all of us should do nervous system work. We should all get to know our nervous system. Somatic therapy is a great way to do that. Breath works a great way to do that. And meditation is another great way to do that. Because all of them teach how to be an observer of your experience rather than enrolled in your experience. So like if I'm in your circumstances and I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I start to cry, I would observe the part of myself that's probably judging myself, probably afraid of how the tears are going to be received. Don't want them to feel like it's their fault. I'm trying to then manage their emotional experience

of my tears. So then I'm not embodied, but I'm able to then manage their emotional experience of my tears. So then I'm not embodied, but I'm able to actually be able to observe that that's happening. Oh, I'm trying to manage their experience too. Oh, okay. What's really going on here? What do I have to say below all of these things? Now it takes journaling and time to be able to actually pull apart all of the, you got to think of all the emotional cascades that taught you that you're not safe to fully express. And tears at least maybe made it so no one, you got consoled and someone would console you

or they made it so they didn't inquire anymore. When really what you ultimately would likely, I'm guessing, want is someone to say, take your time. Whenever you've gathered yourself, it's safe to share. What are you upset about? Because really, ultimately, what good relating is, is two nervous systems trying to stay regulated. As soon as one gets dysregulated, often the other does. And that's what you see in the cycle of conflict, you know. You just finish. And then it's either fight, flight, freeze, or fawn sort of thing. Right. And if I can observe myself, I go into fawn often. I can observe myself going to fawn, and then I can tell if the behavior I'm about to do is fawning or not. And so I'll ask.

The fawning is the people pleasing, right? Right. And so I'll ask myself, am I doing this because I genuinely want to repair or am I doing this because I'm fawning? I know the answer because as soon as I fawn, I feel like I'm five. You know, I can tell it's this energy of like, don't let there be tension. I want to get rid of the tension. And so ultimately what we're learning how to do is increase my capacity for tension, increase my capacity in nervous system work.

They call it the window of tolerance. As soon as you're out of your window of tolerance, you start to not use your brain anymore. You're in a limbic state. Your amygdala is hijacked. You're going to fly, freeze, fawn. And so that's why when someone's actually triggered, I'll ask them, how old do you feel right now? And you can ask yourself that when like, when you're in that experience of tears, how old do you often feel like what's the age that comes to you?

Well, for me, a lot of that always stems back to when I was like 14. And so then you would go and explore when was the first time I remember crying or being overwhelmed with tears. and it sounds to me like 14 you have some sort of memory well it was it was actually a bit sorry it was a bit younger now we're going into like a therapy session but I remember when I was I was sent to boarding school when I was 13 and I was very very small for my age to the point where I had to have, they had to make me a uniform because they didn't do it in my size. And I was so homesick there that I could not get through the day without bursting into tears.

So that was the point where my emotions would overwhelm me so much that I could not control them. And it felt humiliating because I'd be in the middle of like IT class and I would just suddenly be in like hysterics and I could not regulate it. Well, and think about that, like how much you wanted someone to just understand, to just get to know why you're hurting that. Cause you know, I know you sort of laugh at the uniform thing now. wasn't funny right it wasn't and so you think like often we'll laugh or or um smile when actually what we're actually

experiencing a different emotion um and so you know when you think about like right same and that's why i'm like yeah i get it i i've done it and i still sometimes do it i use humor to dismiss you know to to move away from uncomfortable feelings. But you think about what you ultimately needed when you were 13. You're having so many emotions that you can't even get through the moment, which is such a beautiful invitation to an adult to show up and sit down with you and say, tell me all about that. And this is, you know, ultimately what all of us have to learn to cultivate in ourselves by doing that is like you actually going through the practice of, of what did I actually need in that moment? So what did you need in that moment? What did you want or wish for, um, in that experience? I guess comfort.

What did you, who did you want it from? That's a good question. What did you, who did you want it from? That's a good question. My family. I was missing my mom. I did do that thing again when I'm laughing through. But yeah, essentially what it was, was that I felt like I had been taken away or was separated from my family in a way that I didn't want. You know, I still needed that closest.

You didn't consent to. Right. Right. So think about that like I would imagine there's rage in there and like just think about how painful that is for a kid and also I want to acknowledge you

for noticing your laughter and catching it you've just created space and an experience now when you're like oh wait I get there's more there so you've just created space in an experience now when you're like, ha, Oh wait, I get, there's more there. So now there's more space for your experience. And so, you know, like that process of just exploring that moment, what you needed, well, where in your life do you not give yourself that now? You know, where in your life, in your dating process or your relating process

you know it's like you want a partner maybe when you're in those feelings there's a desire for the partner to just take that time to do that and a partner can here's what i need in those moments i need you to say this do this this and the partner gets to participate in your new trust with someone to say like i'm going to show you this 13-year-old part of me who's just waiting to be adulted, to just be walked through. And eventually you get to a place where the emotion's been expressed and felt and security has been created in a human moment that you've never made it through. Do you know what I mean? Has your tears ever led to a deeper feeling of connection understanding have you allowed someone in through that window yeah I mean and to be completely transparent

because we're kind of going there anyway how it's it's happened very recently is that I my love language is touch like that is how I feel connected to people. And my recent partner is, is it's not. And so I found that very challenging. And there was a situation recently where I went to hug him and he rejected it and said that I was like invading his space that made me feel... And then that emotion came over. It's coming over again. And I don't know whether that's like my stuff to work on or something I need from him.

Sorry. No, never apologize for a good tear and a good emotional experience but this is what I mean about like it hijacks me sometimes when I'm going to like an uncomfortable place but I guess that feeling for me of being physically rejected was just so uncomfortable but I wasn't able to communicate it in like a an adult way let's just say totally fair and you think like uh what ideally gets created eventually is the recognition one of the trigger and the wound that's being rubbed in that moment. Probably one for him too, because if someone's afraid or that closeness causes them to sort of pull away, there's often

probably a parent or an experience where they were enmeshed, like a parent who was overly controlling or made them responsible for their feelings, went to them for comfort and consoling. As adults, we distance ourselves from that. Cause if I let you too close, I'm now responsible for your feelings. Yeah. But like when you have a cry, I don't take responsibility for your cry. You just have the experience. And I noticed this in retreats. What'll happen is someone will be having an emotional experience and another person at the retreat will try to hug them. And immediately I'm like, no, because it's the person trying to console them discomfort. They're trying to soothe it by solving it for the other person. And so neither person gets their experience.

And the real interesting thing is I find we're uncomfortable with people being in emotions we don't know how to sit in. So like I know how to sit in grief. So your grief doesn't scare me. I actually think it's incredibly enriching. I think that I know that in grief and loss is actually so much wisdom and so much can be gardened and cultured from it. And I know that in your experience, you're going to do that. And so I think what's interesting is to get to the place where his boundary and his wound can exist and so can yours. And so like you can observe his pull away and observe your response to his pull away. can't hear his boundary, as opposed to like, it's a normal human experience to want to hug and not get the hug, which is very similar to 13-year-old you who just wants someone to know that you're not okay with what's happening. And could someone just please hug me, console me at

this deep level of loss that I'm experiencing? But friendship can do it too. Therapists can do it, can help repair that space or a trained coach too, can help repair that space where I stay regulated and you experience your experience. And then we get to talk about it, like that it's not invalid, that there's actually wisdom in your experience of his rejection, which says, when I get to a place where I feel like I might be rejected or I am experiencing rejection, I know it leads to deep suffering. So you know that in relationship, you need someone who can not distance themselves when you need comfort. Mm-hmm. So you know that that framework,

which is a lot like PTSD, right? We know PTSD is like a bomb went off, my friend died beside me, I'm walking down the street, a car backfires, I go into the same pattern, right? It's not the same thing, but I'm still put into a pattern of save save myself, protect loss. It's the same experience that you recognize. If I don't, if I don't, are you still together with that person? No, I entered two days ago. Oh, wow. Yeah. Again, laughing.

So you think like, yeah, you're like, ha ha, ah. And so I meet you in that because that loss is, I know that space really well. And that's such a painful experience. And you know that what you need from a partner is what you need in that moment. And if they can't even hear your experience of that moment, then you don't have the space to create space for both people's wound. And if you maybe could have handled their boundary in a better way, there's still wisdom garnered there, you know, and there's space for the need for distance, but also recognizing that you have a need. And, you know, you said that we have different love languages. I find that most

people who are in relationship often have very differing love languages. And often if, you know, if we were in relationship, your, your love language will likely be the one that's the greatest stretch for me. And so really that shows you how like, yeah, cause you look at like, someone's like, I love public displays of the affection. And the other person's like, oh my God, I couldn't love something less. Yeah. The real goal is I have to learn how to give love in the way you receive it because I'm a customized loving machine to you, you know, and, and the same thing being, um, for you in, in relationship to me. And this kind of goes full circle to what I talked about at the beginning. When do we know whether something is too much work versus like, it's just not a, yeah, it's not a fit

versus like, we need to understand each other and explore this. And like, I need to get how you communicate love and vice versa. How can we live and coexist when they are so vastly different? You have to be willing to come together, you know, because, you know, if my partner's love language was one that I was really uncomfortable with, I would want to get to know the edges of why it is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for you. For example, someone's love language can be words of affirmation because they never heard it as a kid. And for me to be able to walk through if I was your former partner, to be able to say,

when you come close to me, what comes up in my body is this. And I don't want someone close to me or to experience the, like, I don't want to experience your emotions, which often happens with avoiding people. I don't want to get close to anyone who actually loves me because I feel like when I'm in relationship with people, I have to take on responsibility for their feelings, right? So I need space. Well, often the other person, I need space because a lack of space means pain. For another person who's more anxious, space means pain. So I need no space. And so they often end up in relationship with each other because they validate each other's

world of hurt. When I get close to you, you run. Or when I have a need, you're not there. Well, when you have needs, I need space because you're too much. So both people get validated by that experience. Now, the other thing that's fascinating about that is, is there some sort of idea that I don't have a choice between your closeness and my experience? Like that closeness always means me taking responsibility for someone's feelings as opposed to me starting to build boundaries around what responsibility. So I'm not allowing anyone in thinking in means loss, as opposed to in on my conditions actually is safe. So often people at first need to have really strict sort of walls, but they communicate the walls. And the other person who's experiencing like,

your boundary actually puts me in a total chaotic state. It makes me anxious that the other person is able to communicate that, but learn how to build their tolerance for space too. Does that make sense? Well, it's attachment theory. Right. And the ultimate work is when you say, hey, I want to work on this. How do you know when it's right or when it's not? It's when your partner says, I want to work on it too. Or not. Right. Or not, which they're welcome to say no. You then have the

choice. Do you make that no about you or do you make that no actually about your standards? Yeah. Well, this is the piece about, yeah, and it's about it not then connecting and correlating with your sense of self-worth. It's actually, you know, an invitation to get more aligned with your truth. You actually just grew in that moment, but there's grief in that because there's all the times you didn't grow in that moment. There's all the times you didn't claim your worth that you now have to grieve all the times you're worth left with people. Yeah. And on a very real level, you're also going to have to grieve that person. So there's like a victory in the coming home to yourself. But the acknowledgement that that means saying goodbye to whoever you're with. And that's like a painful experience.

The attachment theory thing is a really interesting one that kind of really gets my head in a spin. Because how do we find like a healthy balance between that? Because obviously, you know, that dynamic for those that don't know, you will explain it a lot better. How can we move towards a place of secure? Well, I mean, everyone can become secure. You know, a lot of people think, oh, well, if I'm anxious or I'm avoidant, then I'm destined for the rest of my life to be anxious or avoidant. And that's certainly not true. You can heal your attachment system. The defining characteristic of a secure relationship is that my partner's needs matter as much as my own.

Not more than my own, that's anxious attachment. Not less than my own, that's avoidant attachment. And I mean, the idea of becoming earned secure or learned secure is that you would just, you could ask yourself a question in every moment. Like, if I loved me, if I trusted me, what would I do in this moment? And is this genuinely safe or not? And what would create safety and security?

You know, I know that when my nervous system gets dysregulated or I get anxious, I at least listen because there's wisdom in it. And it might mean that I have to have a small conversation because something's coming up for me. But all of it brings us back to some more security. So conversations about security create more security or they create fracturing. fracturing. But I could tell you what I don't want is with a fractured relationship to pretend it's secure when I know it's not because my nervous system is going to be dysregulated the whole time and I'm going to be rationalizing that that's normal. I'm going to be intellectualizing. Or maybe I learned that as a kid that dysregulation is safe. It's not. And so coming home to that means we have to make decisions we've probably never made, which are actually what brings us from childhood to adulthood is like teenagers act out, children collapse, adults stand up. And, you know, that's hard work. Shit, I don't say that. Like, yeah, just make a choice, lay a boundary, have a conversation.

just make a choice, lay a boundary, have a conversation. Again, I recognize the level of courage that it takes everybody to do something you've never done. But that's ultimately what creates relationships we've never had. I guess you've got to look at it as like that conversation that needs to be had. You either, like you say, it fractures, the other person can't meet us there, or we reach a new level of intimacy and both essentially are the right outcomes whatever it needs to be versus like like you say staying in something that is fractured and we're pretending we're on solid ground when it's actually disintegrating right and to recognize that uh what you used to call solid ground was actually quicksand. Yeah. One thing I didn't mention earlier that I think is important is I think there's also an

aspect of trusting our gut that's important to develop. Like I remember before I started dating Kylie, I had dated a girl for about a month and she was incredible, like everything on the list. And I remember wanting to choose it, but like just not being able to, like my gut was like, I can't, like I, this is what I've been asking for, but I can't choose this. And I didn't know why, but I had to trust it. I couldn't go against it. I was going to get sick if I did. I was so like attuned to myself and like in alignment that I had to, or like continuing to learn alignment, I think is a better term. And then I met Kai like two months later and it made sense. You know, had I been, if had I self-abandoned, I would have also been entering a relationship with someone who

deserves someone who fully chose them. I wouldn't have been able to fully choose them. And I think that that's important to say because there was a part I'd be dismissing someone else if I said like, just go with what feels off. I think that's different than if you know you've never dated someone who's actually good for you, or then you need to question what chemistry is. Because I would argue that chemistry is inviting you to learn how to choose something differently. So you're attracted to these people for good reason. God, the universe, whatever you might believe in, is calling you towards these people to develop a skill. Because what you said was, I want an amazing partnership that's about growth and transformation. And the universe said, or God or whatever your thing is, said, we're going to make

sure you heal all the shit that you got to heal to create that. But you can't do that without changing these patterns. But I'm still a big advocate for butterflies and having that kind of instant connection with someone. Yeah. Attraction can be obviously a part of your decision, but there has to be, and I would argue you put on your list, respect, kindness, and integrity. And if they demonstrate not those things, what you're doing is, especially someone who's anxiously attached or like waiting to be chosen, finally, please, someone choose me, is they're actually often not discerning about their own choice of, they're waiting for someone

to validate they're enough. But by embodying the, wait, I'm choosing, you got to keep reminding yourself of that if you're in that state. I'm choosing, I'm choosing. Is this person actually a good match for me? So you're staying in your adult body during that time. The child is the desperate, choose me. The adult is, wait, okay. They didn't reply back. They didn't keep their word. They said they were going to call later. They didn't. Remember, small betrayals become big betrayals. So you begin to explore and create more space in the choosing and you allow someone to earn the right of being chosen rather than just being chosen and the rest is history and not probably a good history.

And I like to use the archetype of like, there's the child part of us who will love all out. And then there's the warrior part of us. And if we are too much warrior, we're too shut off. We're distanced, right? I pull away. I'm too protected. I need to wear armor. The child has no armor, walks on. The child becomes the doormat. And that's the other part of what I want to speak to is that often when someone is overtly child expression, innately, our body has a hard time trusting them. And because we know that they'll collapse for love, they'll collapse for anything just to be chosen. And this is why you might hear like the nice guy, right? Like, but he's nice.

Well, niceness, when you're nice at the cost of self, people won't trust you and you won't be attractive because you don't have boundaries. And so your niceness is actually on the condition that you're chosen. Your niceness is on the condition that you get the person. And so it's creating these covert contracts that the person's nervous system can feel and is not attracted to. And so they're like, oh, wait, but this person's so nice. But when you test them, when maybe you act out a little bit or you don't honor your word

and they're like, it's cool. It's all good. And like, I think anyone listening, who's like, oh, I'm the cool. I let everything go. That is like a great destination to total sadness and devastation. Like, yeah, you're cool now, but you won't be cool in two years when you were a doormat and you have footsteps all over your face, which I've had. So I don't say that as a judgment. I say that as a recognition of like, when I was tested by partners, by them acting out, betraying, whatever it might be, they were really saying like, are you willing to abandon yourself for me? Because if you're not, if you are, I don't want you. I can't trust you. I can't trust your warrior. You don't have one. You collapse.

And so really the integration of the two, you know, often the child is attracted to the warrior. You know, that's just the way it is. And the warrior is attracted to the child because they're looking for what they don't have and they're looking to heal it. And so really the healing is for both people to call each other for it. So if I'm too much the child, I need to learn, which you relate these to anxious and avoidant attachment too. So really these are all just different ways of, and one might say this is the empath and other people often label avoiding people as narcissistic. Now in its very extreme form, it's narcissism, but very few people are actually narcissistic. But the point being that the integration for us of the child and the warrior is the adult.

Like the alchemical process of becoming an adult is actually learning how to open your heart and protect it. adult is actually learning how to open your heart and protect it. And so when we talk about like where someone's been together for three years and all of a sudden like, I don't really like my partner anymore or like I'm not attracted to them anymore. It's usually because we have collapsed. We are enmeshed. We don't have identities. And so the relationships that we observed in our inheritance generally are relationships that are codependent. And if I gave up all my passions, my dreams, my working out, my girls' night or my guys' night or whatever it is, my golf, my sports, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. Gardening. I gave up these things for you. I did it for you. Oh my God. This is what partnership does. No, that's what codependency does. And so why would you want to have sex with someone you blame for you losing yourself? And so that's why you usually see that honeymoon phase of relationship in unhealthy dynamics collapse in an attraction disappear at around three years because you start to see, they

call it the fall from grace in psychology. And so you start to see your partner as a human, like who has flaws and farts and does all the things. And you're like, oh God, you know, like, I wish you'd just do this or whatever it is, but what's happening there. And I always say this, uh, which is that wherever there is resentment, a hundred percent of the time there is self abandonment, a hundred percent of the time, it is a reminder that you are not prioritizing yourself. But it's easier to put it onto the other person rather than take ownership. Exactly. Like I resent you because I collapsed for you, which is not a blame thing, but rather

a recognition that you were likely taught to put other people ahead of yourself. And so resentment is evidence that you put people or things ahead of you. And so resentment is evidence that you put people or things ahead of you. And that's why I say like, wherever you resent, pay attention because you're being invited to put a boundary in. You're being invited to draw a line between who you are and who the other person is. And we spoke about like, okay, well, the truth can either fracture the relationship or deepen it, right? It either ends it or invites it to grow. And really, relationships that make it a lifetime will go through hundreds, if not thousands of these iterations as both people change.

And so when the relationship now is being invited to be a place that celebrates individuation, if not invites it, if not demands it, because if you give up you, I have to give up me. I don't want to give up me. So I want you to be the best version of me, of you, sorry. And I want to be the best version of myself. And our relationship will continue to expand to hold the totality of both of us. But not forgetting that in the totality of both of us is both two people who are sovereign beings and who have needs and wants.

And so can the relationship be a place that cultivates and celebrates needs and wants? And it's very possible that someone's needs and wants actually go in a different direction than the relationship or the container can't hold it because one person doesn't know how or doesn't want to is more likely the situation. And so both people are being invited. Can love still be present even though the container of the relationship changed? And for most of us, we've observed that only hate can be present in the ending of a relationship. Or I have to take you down. I have to take your money. Or I have to vilify you. Or I have to do this. And this is where we get back to this messaging that relationships need to last forever, but they don't all last forever. So can we normalize culturally that it cannot last and love still stays? And that was a big, because Kylie and I

broke up for a year. And when our relationship ended, she went into sort of the recluse space of like discovering herself and all that kind of stuff further and further and further and came out like a rising Phoenix. And I went into like, how do I share my process with people? You know, that I am angry and that I am hurt, but I still love her. And the completion of this relationship is more important than my ego. And oh my God, that was the hardest shit I've ever had to do. Are you kidding me? It's like every part of me was like, I don't want to talk. Like when we're hurt there, I mean, the standard sort of protocol of us is hurt people hurt people, right? So like, even if I was betrayed by my partner, can I take that betrayal and actually grow from it rather than try to betray them back or hurt them back?

And this isn't to dismiss someone's pain of betrayal. I've certainly experienced betrayal, and it's some of the most painful stuff I've ever been through. But can I not make it so I want to pass the hurt along? Can I increase my capacity for that hurt so that it can alchemize and become wisdom and a better version of me? Which again, we don't observe. We don't see that. Again, what do we do with people? We exile them. What do we do with ourselves? We exile them. And so we exile pain. We can't hold pain. We don't know how.

And we can learn how. Of course, some of us are learning how to get better at it. But then we model it for other people. So when someone else goes through a breakup and they want to be toxic, when they're around someone who's done the work, they can say, who's that going to serve? How do we heal? How do we move forward? this has been such an amazing conversation you have been one of my dream guests for the saturn returns podcast thank you so it's a real honor to have had you on and i mean on a personal note i have learned a lot and this has come at very uh appropriate timing for me and i'm sure that our listeners are going to love it. And if they

haven't heard about you, we'll be binging on your solo episodes like I have. Well, thank you. I appreciate you having me on. Thank you, Mark. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Mark Groves. I learned so much from talking to him. And as I stepped away after that conversation, I just felt this massive weight had lifted because it's so hard for us to see objectively when we're in the experience. Sometimes we need someone from the outside, but equally we have to be mindful of whose opinions we take on. This concept of attachment theory really fascinates me, and I think the way that Mark articulated it

as we all possess the child and the warrior is a really interesting way to process it. Also, this idea of being able to hold two truths is so profound, I think, and an incredible takeaway for me me and I hope for you too so thank you so much for listening to today's episode it was a little bit vulnerable listening back made me a little bit teary but you know I think it's important to share these vulnerabilities because it's the thing that unifies us at the end of the day. So if you have any thoughts, please send me a message.

I love hearing from you guys after each episode. Also, we have a show coming up on the 27th of May. It's the first Saturn Returns live show, so you've still got a chance to get your tickets. It's with Catherine Gray. You can get them from dice.fm. If you would like to hear more from Mark you can follow him on instagram at create the love where he shares all his amazing relationship advice or listen to his podcast which is one of

my favorites the mark groves podcast and if you would like a reading with our astrological guide you can find nora at stars incline messages are always welcome to me and you can find Nora at Stars Incline. Messages are always welcome to me and you can find me on Instagram at Kagi's World. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Varrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so very much for listening and remember you are not alone. Goodbye.