Saturn Returns with Caggie - 4.8 Dream Works with Dr Michael Lennox

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

Dr Lennox is spiritual teacher, psychologist, astrologer and expert in dreams and dream interpretation. In this fascinating episode, Caggie is joined by this larger than life character as they discuss how to communicate with your subconscious through your dreams, their significance on us as individuals and as a collective, and what astrology forecasts for the future of society. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. The classic phrase is, it's just a dream. Oh, it's just a dream. Except it's not just a dream. Oh, it was just a dream. Except it's not just a dream. It's the most rich, vibrant aspect of our humanity is our unconscious. My guest today is Dr. Michael Lennox, a spiritual teacher, psychologist, astrologer, and expert in dreams and dream interpretation. He started his professional career by obtaining

a master's and doctorate in psychology from the Chicago School before moving into the realm of astrology. But as you'll hear, his work and dreams began before any of this. He has written several books on dreams, hosted TV shows, and regularly leads workshops and retreats alongside his private practice. Now, as you'll hear, Michael is a big personality with some big ideas. And we go all in in this episode, talking about dreams, of course, but also astrology and our future as a society. Many of you requested an episode around dreams. And so I asked my friend Kelly who she could recommend, and she sent Michael and as soon as I started following him I thought well this will make for an interesting episode. I have also become fascinated by dreams and the wisdom they can

hold for us and wanted to explore this theme more. But before we get into this wonderful episode let's hear from our astrological guide, Nora. In astrology, the sign of Pisces is known to be the sign that is most connected to the realm of dreams and the subconscious. Virgo is the archetype then that delineates those dreams and dissects the subconscious. Both of these signs are energies that we live and experience daily, no matter what our personal zodiac sign is. This is because Virgo is the energy of our daily life, our routine, our physical health, our work, and Pisces is the sign that helps us digest this and also escape it. So we dream about our daily life, but we also try to digest our worries from the day to day when we dream or escape.

Bars, theaters, our beds, or any other place associated with escapism are an example of how Pisces manifests in the world. Then the gym, the workplace, for example, is how Virgo manifests in the world. When Saturn Returns starts, it brings a deeper awareness to how our daily routine affects our dreams, but also how our dreams and sense of escapism affect our daily routine. We learn and process in a more mature way how to truly connect with our subconscious. And the first step is to be aware and fully accept how much the subconscious leads our lives and how certain habits stop us from connecting to our soul and its true yearnings and often it's not the yearnings we would have thought of originally. When we truly do this we can start to take more ownership

over our lives and use the dual energies of Pisces and Virgo to our benefit, both psychologically and physically. And then Saturn Return provides us with the awareness and the foundation to build the life of our dreams. Michael, thank you so much for joining me on the Saturn Return podcast. I'm very excited about this conversation. You have a big energy about you. Yeah, and I finally created a life where that's a good thing always.

How so? So was it not always a good thing? Yeah, you know, I am a big energy. Like I was born that way. Like I've just been making a lot of. Like I was born that way. Like I've just making, I've been making a lot of noise since I started, but I also have built into my sort of trauma experience as a kid. And part of my personality is a real need for attention and the bigness and the desire for attention in my younger days when I was operating from places where I was wounded inside. Yeah. Caused a lot of hassle out

there in the world because I like demanded that you pay attention to me from a traumatized place. I love that you've just said that. I love the self-awareness and the honesty. What, what star sign are you, by the way? I'm a Leo. I'm a Leo sun. He's definitely a Leo. I was going to say, he's definitely a Leo. Not only am I, I'm a Leo sun and Leo Venus conjunct. So my heart and my sense of self is all Leonian, but it's also the 30th degree of Leo, which is a mastery degree, the aneretic degree.

So I am like all Leo. And then I'm a Sagittarius rising. So lots of fire and a Libra air moon that makes the fire sort of turn into, you know, a combustion, like, you know, in a big, big way. So that led how I moved through my life early, right? I had all of this fire and air. So that's the bigness and the demand for, you know, attention and being out there in the world. But I also have this water trine in my chart where there's this tremendous compassion, empathy, and sensitivity. But it took a very long time for me to integrate

that watery, fluid, feminine approach to being in my body. When would you say you started to integrate that? Well, I had a really enormous spiritual Kundalini awakening kind of explosive thing that happened at around 39, 40 years old, where I had a lot of phenomena in my body. It was moving in strange and weird ways for weeks and months at a time. And that those movements that would happen mostly at night were also actually creating these convulsive, repetitive movements that I later figured out was actually breaking open old fascia.

What does that mean? Well, the fascia is the connective tissue in our bodies that is actually able to both calcify and be broken up, right? It's not bone, it's not cartilage, and it's not muscle. It's the connective tissue. And so we can walk around with emotional patterns that are also physicalized in our body. And so that was a big setup to then an experience

that I had after sitting with one of the divine mothers from India who was coming through town where I hung out with her in Satsang all day, came home, felt like I wanted to die. And I woke up the next morning and had a kind of profound sense of a bigger energy entering my body. And it didn't leave for about a year. And it didn't leave for about a year. And that whole year was like a walk of high consciousness, lack of ego, and an ability to understand what it would be like to live in an integrated way. And then that energy passed away and I went back to sort of my regular embodiment, which had a personality and an unconscious and a tendency towards addiction. And I moved through one of the worst depressions of my life at around 42, 43.

And from that point on, I'm 58 now. So for the, essentially the last 15, 16 years, I've been living in a kind of freedom from my earlier childhood traumas and the difficulties of how I was raised, but also able to put my spiritual practice into my daily experience of what it's like to live my life day to day, supported by, you know, my connection to Source. So you're going to your second Saturn return? I am. It actually technically is next year, 2022. But yes, Saturn will be back, back where he was when I was born. And yeah, I'm crossing that threshold into elder, into teacher, into wisdom bringer. So for the audience that doesn't know, I mean, you kind of just given a bit of background

in a sense, but would you be able to explain what you do and how you got into it? Sure. Well, if I'm asked the sort of, you know, elevator answer is spiritual teacher. I say that first because I am a teacher at heart. Then I always say psychologist, astrologer, and expert in dreams and dream interpretation. And I put it in that order because I want people to understand that first and foremost, I do have training and education about the human condition through the lens of Western psychology. Yeah. About 25 years ago, I stumbled into astrology.

It captivated me to no end. I dove headfirst and that wound up becoming the major way I work with people. Then the third piece is dreams and dream interpretation. And though it comes last in my elevator pitch, it was the first great love. I came into dreams and dream interpretation as a teenager. I loved my own dreams, was fascinated by them. I stumbled on Freud's interpretation of dreams at 15 years old and read it. Not sure I understood it fully, but I certainly got from reading that book that dreams could be looked at and meaning could be found by exploring them. So that when I was in social settings in high school and kids would

say, I had a crazy dream last night, as people are like to do, I would just be like, well, let's talk about it. And I would find that as people told me their dreams, that I had something to say in response that caused people to widen their eyes and say, wow, that's so fascinating. That makes so much sense. And I was doing that at 16 and 17 years old, intuitively and innocently. And when I watched myself doing the process in my later years, frankly, because somebody came up to me and said, you need to learn how you do what you do so you can teach other people to do it. I was like, okay, well, what am I doing? It was like, oh, wow. It was just so obvious what I was doing. You tell me a story.

I'm walking down the path in the woods on a hike. I come upon a snake. It frightens me. I wake up. Then I'm hearing path in the woods. You know, your lone walk, not your social walk, not your bigger walk, not your driving through life, but your intimate walk.

Snakes represent change and transformation. Why we agree on that universally? Because every kid in third grade learns that snakes shed their skin. So the idea of snake lives in the sort of the collective mind as that thing that represents the change and transformation happens below the surface. And then poof, one day it's all ready. The old skin leaves and the new skin is there. Okay, let's put this into practice. And I'm going to tell you a dream that I had last night.

Ah, yes, let's go. The dream I had was that I went somewhere. I was traveling, I think it was abroad to a different place. And I suddenly realized when I got there that someone had put on a lot of diamonds on me. And suddenly sort of realizing that bits had fallen off and around me, I was having to, you know, forage for it and find the jewels,

which were now like in the ground and in the earth and trying to like collect them all and make sure that I hadn't lost any and trying to remember how many they may have put on me, but I actually wasn't ever aware that they were being put on my body. So that's the dream. What does that mean? Well, let's start with the traveling abroad, right? So you're in consideration of your sort of global consciousness, a higher level of thought, right? You know, I use the silly little example of like a walk in the woods as representing your personal, private sort of trek through life that's intimate. Traveling abroad might be sort of the opposite.

Who are you as a member of the global community? Then when I think about diamonds on you, there's two things about that that jump out at me. One is what are diamonds? They're the beautiful expressions that come from pressure and time. So if you put that in human terms and psyche terms, the diamonds are the tinkling, shiny, bright little pieces of wisdom and love that we get to exhibit and inhabit

because we've gone through the hell of the pressure of the things below the surface that needed time and pressure to become diamonds. So it's a moment where you're actually in consideration. Have I lost some of my, you know, shiny gifts to the world? I want to make sure I don't lose anything along the way, the gifts, the jewels that are there. There's something interesting about you using the word foraging, because that also has a kind of an implication of like going back to the woods to take a look at the jewels

that you might've had before. Like, so there's a little hinted message in there that says, you know, don't forget to have all of your gifts and talents to offer the world. And every once in a while, we're going to feel like we've lost some. Yeah. Now you say that, that makes complete sense of that, you know, as we do navigate our way through the world and we come to moments of realization about, you know, who we truly are, what we value, how we want to show up. There is, I think for me often that perhaps clearly that more subconscious awareness of like, but as you keep traveling, don't lose that. That's right. Don't lose the gifts of the past. Don't lose what you've already worked on. And so the second part of that was then I was on the phone to my mom and she said, oh, I'm going down to the house where we have a summer home. She's like, because I left some jewelry and I am worried about leaving it there. So I'm going back.

And then I was just like, that's so weird that I had this dream about. Oh, that's a waking life experience. The conversation with your mom. Yeah. Yeah. That was this morning. That was today. Oh yeah.

Oh honey. Yeah, absolutely. Listen, one thing that I will, will say that about precognitive dreams, being somebody who's been listening to thousands of dreams for really for more than 40 years, is that precognitive dreams are absolutely a standard way that people are naturally intuitive because the waking mind that drowns out the intuitive voice is asleep. And so we're more likely to have a perception that rips open the fabric of time so that you have a dream that is actually in complete alignment with a conversation that you're about to have with your mother. And so then you have a dream that might be about making sure that you don't lose track of your brilliance along the way.

It shows up in a storyline that matches the precognitive event it's tapping into. Mom mentioning jewelry. Otherwise, it might have been a dream about, you know, making sure you have all the ice cream in your fridge that you need. Yeah. That blows my mind that the idea that dreams can cut through the fabric of time. Yeah. I love that about dreams because we are so stuck by the way we relate to our thinking mind. Right. And so our thinking mind is only valuable in the present, but it can go into the future and it can go into the past.

But is it really there? No. It's the present day mind fantasizing about, you know, readying ourselves for the future or reviewing the past. But when you quiet that mind, there is no time. We can move forward and backward, but not with the thinking mind that's designed to keep us navigating in the present. In fact, I would also add this, that having heard, you know, so many dreams for so many years, I've noticed that in the last, I don't know, decade and a half, I'm hearing way more people talk about their precognitive experiences and dreams so how can we start using our dreams as a way of sort of accessing these places and because of it i think people sort of dismiss dreams and they just say i had this weird dream like there's a curiosity about them but they're not really seen as much value

yeah no in fact that what's the classic phrase is it's just a dream oh it's just a dream. Oh, it's just a dream. Except it's not just a dream. It's the most rich, vibrant aspect of our humanity is our unconscious. This is actually where I like the blending of astrology and dream interpretation in that if you think about astrology as a reflection of conscious awareness and the unconscious, it's the sun and the moon, right? So the sun is our conscious awareness. It's burning brightly in the center of our solar system thinking I'm all that because I'm conscious and I'm burning. Meanwhile, the moon is up here going, yeah, honey, my realm is the unconscious and it's as big as all of outer space. It is the much greater realm of what's here is, is the unknown and the unknowable and dreams are the

realm of that. And so first and foremost, to have a richer experience of this is to remove the idea that a dream is just a dream. It's not. It's a snapshot into the mystery. Now, we may think we know what dreams are, and the scientists say we don't really know what they are, and therefore they can't have any meaning because we know that the brain is doing a bunch of metabolic processes, and that we can scientifically prove. And we can't prove that dreams open us up to our multidimensional, you know, realities. So therefore it's not true or accurate, but you know, I don't need it. I don't need a scientific proof to know from my own dream experiences and holding space for people, just how rich and powerful they are. And so the way to take advantage of them

is number one, kind of individual from person to person, and really just about developing a relationship with your own dreaming unconscious. Meaning just having a dream is the rich experience of conscious mind and unconscious mind trying to relate to each other. But you're the intermediary. You're the one that can then say, well, this sounds important. So I'll deepen my relationship with the dream by writing it down. So now you've taken something that's passive and you've brought a little activation into the process. Now your unconscious is aware on some level that you're more interested in what it has to say. You can think of your

unconscious like an eight-year-old boy at the pool. Mommy's off the way reading her Cosmo, you know, on her chaise lounge. And every two minutes the kid is going, Hey ma, look, I'm jumping in the pool. And mom's like, yeah, thanks. I see you over there. Like, that's the unconscious. It just wants us to pay attention to it. So writing it down deepens that.

Sharing your dream with another human being deepens it still. Getting some kind of either answer about what the dream means from writing about it or ruminating about it or thinking about it deepens it yet. My sort of pièce de résistance to something dreamlike in order to relate to it and have the unconscious sort of light up because you're paying attention would be to do something creative. Like do a self-portrait of yourself with diamonds with a handful of them missing. It's not about coming to some final sense of, oh, this is what this dream means. It's really just saying, oh, there's this sacred inner part of me

that's actually the greater, that's speaking to me. I want to pay attention. And when I do, it will speak more. And as a result of that, I will know who I am greater on a Tuesday than I did on a Monday. I love that. I love this idea of being able to communicate

with the unconscious mind. Yeah. the unconscious sending you a dream is like knocking on your door and if you don't pay attention the unconscious is likely to just send you the same dream or a similar dream knock knock knock knock knock when we finally say who's there the unconscious gets very excited and lit up and will respond and give you more. This is why when people start to write down their dreams, they suddenly begin remembering more of them. Because the unconscious has a kind of desire to open itself up and express to us. and communicating that part of ourself that we aren't in control of, but that is actually bigger than we can even sort of really realize. It's kind of scary.

Yeah, no, you know, yeah, yeah, I get it. I mean, it's interesting. I personally have always been so lit up by these processes that I don't have an identification with this. But I will say that over the decades, I've heard this from people a billion times. And one, one thing that's common is like when someone has a meditative experience and they are maybe naturally good at tapping into sort of etheric,

energetic experiences in their body. So they'll have a little phenomena, you know, they'll early in meditation, they'll go to places that are interesting in their inner landscape and they'll say, oh, I'm afraid of that. So I shut it down because it is about going toward the void. Even being with our dreams and letting go of that conscious control is ultimately a demand to accept death. So the ultimate fear is that we facing that means also facing our death. Yes. Yes. Yes.

That's pretty heavy. But also, you know, I speak a lot about for us to really grow. And I'm talking about in this life and in this realm, we have to go into the void. Yes. We have to sort of come undone. So many people's spiritual awakenings happened during that time. And I think, you know,

often people's Saturn return is a moment when these kind of things start to shed. Well, we're just, we're talking about it in this, in these very big terms, right? And, and, but it's the same principle, whether we're talking about in big terms of the big universe, the big void, the big collective unconsciousness, or an individual's person of just looking in the mirror and facing their own demons is a little bit like the void. That place where we are safe in our conscious experience because we shove all of the things we're afraid of into the basement. But eventually that basement gets full and we have to look at it. And that's as terrifying as looking out into the

void because they're really one in the same. They are reflections of each other. Our personal demons are synonymous with the existential void. And yeah, without, you know, without tapping into that dark part of ourselves, we can't have a life of wholeness and integration. This may seem sort of like a wide leap, but the more people on the planet who are paying attention to their dreams and their own interpersonal void, the more of them that there are, then the more compassion, forgiveness, there'll be out there in the world, in the collective being held by people. And then we'll

see peace because more people on the planet more humans will not be living in such a divide and separate consciousness but a unified consciousness because we tap into that collective place in our dream state we as individuals every night are tapping into the one then we wake up in the morning and we think we're separate and we continue the fight i want to ask you mentioned a moment ago about how over the last 10 years over the last decade you've seen a change yes people's dreams what is there anything you connect that because obviously you do astrology as well what is. You're like. It happened in 2011 when the planet Neptune moved into Pisces. Neptune is a planet in astrology that I call the great spirit. He is our spiritual connection.

And represents the human race's ability to connect with the divine. And he rules the sign of Pisces. And both the sign of Pisces and the planet of Neptune rules dreaming. And all spiritual connection, but very specifically dreams, and therefore their interpretation is a Neptune in Pisces kind of consciousness. So in the years before Neptune moved into Pisces, I was out there doing workshops, doing retreats, answering questions about dreams and dream interpretation. And the moment Neptune moved into Pisces, now it's like I couldn't do enough of them. I got asked to do more and more of them. Questions within dream

workshops or retreats were so much more interesting and rich compared to how they had been when I first started out. I was hearing the reporting of way more precognitive dreams after that point as well. And because I am an astrologer, I was really gobsmacked by this, that it was such, first of all, that it was something that astrology predicted. And then I saw the evidence of it, and I was sort of duly impressed with astrology at

that moment because it really did shift the timbre of spirituality on the planet. And in fact, I would say that if we interviewed a random sampling of a hundred people who are of an age enough, we would probably find a lot of people reporting that they shifted into a greater sense of their own spiritual consciousness somewhere around 2010. That's fascinating. What would you say,

because obviously through astrology, 2020 has always been considered a year where a lot was going to go down and it did. Well, you know, certainly we've hinted at this already today in our conversation, but I'll sort of articulate it in a different way. In order to have a true transformation of your own sense of self, you've really got to go through a death and rebirth. of your own sense of self, you've really got to go through a death and rebirth. Nobody gets a higher walk in their body on this planet

without some version of a dark night of the soul. Can't happen. Yeah. And not only that, let's also say this, you step onto the spiritual path, the shit hits the fan. It's not all love and life from now on out. In fact, I think it's sort of the opposite of that.

It's kind of like now I agree to work with life on life's terms, but backed by a spiritual consciousness so that I know that I have this tremendous, you know, energy to sort of work with it all. So yeah, that shit hits the fan. So if a death and a rebirth needs to happen for change and transformation to take place, it's sort of a boon that the planet that brings death, which is Pluto,

was part of the big astrological kerfuffle of 2020 that astrologers were talking about before the year even arrived, you know, saying change and transformation like we've never seen before. I got to, you know, mention here, there are a lot of people who move through the global pandemic and their their experience of that was survival. So I just want to be really careful that as I'm saying all of this about the opportunity, the pandemic, that I'm also respecting the fact that if you were worried about putting food in your mouth and keeping a roof over your head, you probably weren't having, you know, you know, six classes on spirituality. Yeah. So I want to make sure that I don't just sound like some privileged white guy who's, you know, you know, makes a lot of money and, you know, therefore it doesn't touch me. Right. Because

the fact is, is that there are people for whom this experience is, you know, really a matter of life and death. But for those who that was not the case for, there was the opportunity to sort of reign in, pull in and say, all right, what's important to me? What do I want to know or learn about my humanity at this moment while I have the opportunity? And I will say that as a person who teaches, you know, classes on conscious awareness and self-exploration, you know, my classes, all of them just filled up like crazy because people were thirsty. so I haven't been around that long but in my lifetime and I'd say also like my mother's lifetime to experience something and probably many others to experience something on this global scale where actually whether or not you're aware of it you are feeling a collective grief and tapping into something you know I would walk around after you know there had been a big announcement let's say we were going back into lockdown for like however many, for the third time or whatever.

And I would feel this energy and I would have to realize, I was like, this isn't mine. Right. This is the collective. That's right. I think it's important for people to find inside of themselves a sense of who they are that is so thorough and clear based on what they know of themselves and what they, what their baseline experiences of thought, feeling, embodiment, so that there can be an easier experience when overwhelmed to be able to say, okay,

wait a minute, the collective is on fire right now. How much of this is mine and how much of this is the collective, which then I think you can then navigate with. I do it with prayer and meditation and a kind of inner sense of dialogue with myself and my higher, you know, energies. That's how I sort of do it. But if you don't know that there's this collective that impacts your emotionality, there are times where you're going to think you're losing your mind.

But really what's happening is you're just helping the collective process a big clunky moment. Absolutely. And, you know, obviously this curiosity and an appetite for the esoteric, for the mystical seems to have just exploded. Exploded. And it's amazing. And you suddenly feel like, okay, there's this collective shift happening in a collective spiritual awakening, I think.

So from, I guess you kind of just explained it in terms of astrologically what was going on. Is there anything you can add for the next sort of forecasting of the next couple of years? Oh, golly. You know, I'll say this. The energetic experience of 2020 changed the game. Like it changed the game entirely about what the future will bring, right? So we are in whatever the future will bring. It got created and adjusted last year. And so even from an astrological perspective, the incredible gathering that 2020 was astrologically was unprecedented. And the energies of this year are energies of unstable change,

planet Saturn, the reckoning teaching planet, and the awakening planet Uranus in a square, conflict and obstacle. So we're seeing that play out this year where there's change is still happening and everything feels very unstable, though it hasn't blown up, but it feels like it might any moment. Yeah. Right. And so then as we move forward through the next couple of years, even if I could sit here and spout off the astrology of 22 and 23 and 24, the real sort of juice or important piece of information about this is that what got set into motion last year is some inevitable movement of the planet in some direction of chaos that hopefully will rise up and create an experience of the possibility of peace

and hopefully it's not a reset event. I don't believe in reset events. I don't think we're going to destroy ourselves at that level. Yeah, I was going to say, as in the end of humanity. Well, or the change of like this version of humanity into you know where a smaller newer i don't know the movie versions of this right well i mean i will tell you that i don't believe in a reset event because what i believe in is polarization and the tension of opposites expand on that everything in astrology runs on polarization of opposites every sign and its

opposite hold a sense of what's possible when those two opposites come crashing together and create a transcendent third let's just think of it as everything is binary in our world, day, night, up, down, in, out. But are we that? We're not. We're this sort of singular perception machine that has to grapple with that night is not day, day is not night, and both of them are illusions. So if you take that further, even like in the United States, which is just being ripped apart by this polarization of, you know, Christian and not white and not, you know, vaccinated and unvaccinated Republican Democrat. I mean, it's it's bad here in America. It's bad. It's bad here in America. It's bad. It's bad.

And I still believe that that idea of opposites that fight with each other is the nature of this mechanism that we are. anything is, is that as we continue into the future, we will continue to be a binary being that has to divide things into opposite polarities. And that with consciousness and love, we can get to a place where that's not so destructive. So I don't believe that it has to explode and destroy itself because that's not what the mechanism is designed to do. It's designed to chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga in this polarity that we have to reconcile. But who do you know on the planet that's already good at this, meaning good at holding different viewpoints, having their belief while listening to another's, not fighting and arguing. The people who do that well are people who have a spiritual consciousness.

You know, who, right? The people who can't do that well are people who are still in fear. So my belief for peace, for humanity, isn't that the other side suddenly agrees with you because that ain't never happening. I don't think it has to happen that it's a big destructive explosion and then we start again like you've seen in so many movies. What I really believe that it is, and this could take many, many generations to play out, but what I believe is that more people on the planet will be holding an inner personal experience of being able to contain those polarities without destructiveness. And when enough people on the planet can do that,

And when enough people on the planet can do that, then we will know peace because there will be an inner experience of peace that's vibrant enough in the collective to begin showing up as an experience of peace in the outside world. I love that. That's so powerful. Powerful. And for those listening that, you know, that this conversation will resonate with, but still may be acting from a place of fear, which of course we all do from time to time. We all do from time to time. Yeah. You know, with what's currently going on in the world, it's very easy to, you know, you just turn on any piece of news, any media, and it fuels that fear. And whether that's like an intentional thing or not is a whole nother conversation. But how do we start to shift from that space? I certainly think people have to hold back from the experiences that leave them triggered, like watching the news, turning into social media.

That's certainly rule number one, pull in more than reaching out. You know, the second thing is it's all about how you relate to the, to the person in the mirror. And I mean this literally, like if you can go to the mirror right now and look in your own eyes and gaze lovingly and say, I love you, and then keep holding your gaze, great, good on you. But if you can't, and I suspect that if you've never done that before, you're going to find that a very confronting exercise. That's going to be your barometer at how much work you might have to do on the inner landscape. And if there's even a little bit of work that you have to do to be able to look in the mirror and say,

I love you to yourself, then you have no business turning on the news or looking in the outside world. Go back to the mirror. Or project it like, you know, shouting in your own echo chamber about how you think the world should be. Yeah. Well, you know, and then that brings me to a third tip. Let's talk about like what's a tip for people who are triggered and don't want to be all lovey-dovey at the mirror. Then that's great. Turn off the social media and scream and yell and rage,

but do it consciously, privately, and within your own sort of sphere of influence without splattering it on somebody in a post or a conversation so that your body that's craving to express the feelings that are in there is allowed to be enraged, but then no one is harmed. And it isn't about control or trying to get somebody to be different. It's about your embodiment needing to release the energy that's trapped in there that is best done through angry expression.

But you can do that privately and sacredly and have it be something that frees your instrument up but doesn't hurt the feelings of another human being. This is how I handle it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much.

This has been such a fascinating conversation. I have enjoyed it immensely. What I loved about this episode was this idea that we can communicate with our subconscious through our dreams and by writing them down and then allowing the space for the next part of the story or the next message to unfold when we are sleeping I just thought that was so interesting and definitely since I've had

this conversation I have actually been practicing this myself so I hope it inspires some of you to pay more attention to your dreams and start working with them you can find out more about Michael and his work on Instagram at DrLennoxDreams or his website michaellennox.com. His books on dreams are available from any good retailer. You can follow our astrological guide Noor on Instagram at Stars and Klein, me at Kagi's World and the podcast at Saturn Returns Co co if you enjoyed this episode i would love it if you could follow the show and share it on social media that always helps us get found by more like-minded people and if you could write us a review on apple podcast i would very much appreciate it

saturn returns is a feast to collective production the producer is h Hannah Varel and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so much for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.