Saturn Returns with Caggie - 4.9 Let’s Talk About Sex with Chloe Macintosh

Episode Date: November 15, 2021

Tech entrepreneur and founder of sexual wellness app Kama Chloe Macintosh joins Caggie for this explosive episode of Saturn Returns. They deep dive into sexuality, talking orgasms, squirting, the role of the masculine and feminine and societal pressures and stigmas surrounding sex. They also look into how sexuality and spirituality are more connected than we might think. Warning: they do not hold back!  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. We should use pleasure as a way to stay present. It's the fastest and most compelling way to go back to homeostasis. It's what we have built into the system. Pleasure is what we've got as an asset

to combat depression, stress, tension, anxiety. My guest today is sexual pleasure entrepreneur Chloe McIntosh. Chloe was born in Paris, but started her career in architecture in the UK and has remained here ever since. She soon left architecture and moved into tech co-founding homeware brand made.com. Following her passion she has recently founded sexual wellness brand Cammer, an app that offers sexual wellness practices that improve how users experience love, sex and intimacy.

I was first introduced to Chloe through my agents and after our first meeting I was so impressed by her. I've never met anyone that speaks so eloquently and so knowledgeably about the subject of sex. It's definitely considered quite a taboo or stigmatized subject. And when Chloe talks about it, she's so lit up because you can just feel and see her passion. So I just had to get her on the podcast to discuss this because it's something that I feel, even though I'm in my thirties, I still know so little about, but as a very, you know, I consider myself quite a sexual person it seems strange that we have such a bad education around the subject and so speaking with someone like Chloe gave myself the opportunity to learn more and I hope it will do the same for you and when it comes to intimate episodes I don't think

this one can be beaten we talk about orgasms multiple orgasms different types of orgasms g-spots squ squirting, how our sexuality and our spirituality should be treated as one and the same. It's a lot, but it's very exciting. So before we get to this episode with Chloe, let's check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Sexuality and astrology is closely related to the planet Mars, not Saturn. Mars is the energy that invokes our vigor, our energy levels, our ambitions, our body's needs, our sexuality, and also our free will. And up until the age of 27, this energy hasn't completely matured yet. It is still evolving and trying to express itself in accordance to its desire, its will, its ambition. And so this is where Saturn comes in.

Saturn represents our fears, our doubts, our restrictions and lessons that have been influenced by early authority figures, that have been influenced by society's judgmental gaze and the narrative that we've been programmed to believe surrounding our free will, surrounding our bodies, sexuality, ambitions, and so forth. It's our inner masculine that, as women, can be hard to express with the right balance. So during Saturn Return and any Saturn transit throughout our lives, we inevitably become confronted with those very judgments and restrictions we've unconsciously placed upon ourselves, and that without a doubt have directly influenced our sexuality and our relationship with sex. Saturn challenges us

to challenge it. It desperately wants us to recognize our own authority and pushes us to lead the dance towards complete emancipation. It's this dance that can feel like a constant push and pull as we step into our 30s or pass any certain transit, and it's also this dance that leads the way towards self-sovereignty and unapologetic ownership over our sexuality, our bodies, our ambitions, our free will. I thought about the idea of launching something within the sexuality space about 15 years ago when I got pregnant with my first son, because I was feeling a bit lost.

You know, I'm French, I come to the UK and then no one talks about sex. And then if I go to see a doctor, it's really awkward. And so I was looking for a place to inform myself around, you know, what happened to your sex life when you're pregnant and what should you avoid? And, you know, is there something I should know? And I was just really surprised to find that there was nothing I could go to in terms of like a destination online

or platform that would inform or asking people they didn't know where to get informed it was just like a blank basically and so I realized that's so strange why is this a blank you know why they aren't cool brand that talked to you about sex and tell you what to do and so it just kind of started to you know play in my mind I think that's a real problem in society that women when they go through that and I've spoken to boys about and I've spoken to girls that are going through that themselves that they suddenly sort of become desexualized and even their partners might look at them as different and it's like it creates this kind of I don't know a bit of a

Madonna in the hall complex where it's like totally no you are the mother of my children therefore I can no longer see you as a sexual being and then how that affects the woman who then is feeling like am I no longer viewed as a sexual being am I not allowed to whereas that's for me to express this part of myself I'm sure it could be really traumatizing where do those kind of messages come from well i mean we live in a very heteronormative world you know where standards of reference based fundamentally around male pleasure or male satisfaction this comes from sigmund freud a lot i believe because he's the one that kind of labeled internal pleasure as superior to clitoral pleasure for women he said internal

orgasm have more value they're the real orgasms which is the one that men get pleasure from wait he said that men he said that an internal orgasm for women is more... Is the real deal. And clitoral orgasms are kind of there, you know, for the woman to find pleasure, but that's because she's not having the internal pleasure. So if you think about it, that view, which is designed by men, around men,

very women had the voice to say, no, hang on a second actually you know we all get more pleasure from that so can we make that that pleasure that we value because the other thing is just going to make us traumatized and ashamed that we can't have it which is 80 percent of women cannot have an internal orgasm without any external stimulation so something that very few people are aware of is that during the first six weeks of the gestation in the womb, we have vulva, all of us. From that vulva shape, the penis develops and all of the different pieces get reassembled into an external

piece of anatomy versus a more internal piece of anatomy. But the more we know the correlation and kind of similarities between the two components, the more we can actually understand each other's pleasure. And this has been a big piece of internal research for us when we started to work on the idea that we need to teach every woman to squirt because squirting is such a big part of the arousal system it has the opportunity to set us off into a place of arousal that's extremely you know beneficial for us it's also allowing us to clean the pipes and release the system so it's kind of an important process that really should happen early in the experience so you kind of have that release you really let go and then you can go into actually more internal pleasure so it wakes up

your internal structures and make them more erogenous because i i just to kind of bring our listeners into a bit of context of how we met i had a session with aaron who works with you and he told me some of the stuff that just fascinated me because this is in a space that I know very much about I didn't you know sex education at school was hugely limited and I definitely have always adopted that narrative of if you don't achieve an internal orgasm through sex then there's something slightly wrong with you and then there's this like thing of the g-spot like do I not have a g-spot was I born without one same for me yeah and then you know that does on some level create a bit of a I think ashamed thing or like you're not a woman or you're not achieving

something that you're supposed to be and what I found really fascinating what Aaron told me is this this idea about learning squirting because again that was something that all I knew about that was what I'd seen through pornography like I don't know when we'd watch silly things which is like a party trick it's like a forced experience that looks very theatrical yeah and quite weird and like I was like I don't know what's going on. So would you be able to talk a little bit about that process and how it's kind of important to what we're discussing? Yeah, it's fine, but it's also a bit of pressure. Like, you know, I was away after Christmas last year with this mission to get myself to learn how to squirt and also develop a method that would be applicable for everyone. So I locked myself in a bathroom for about three days with porn, with girl porn, this new type of porn that I think is actually very interesting and very educative, which is just women masturbating themselves in front of a camera and the beauty about this compared to all the porn we've seen before is they're doing it for our own pleasure so I've learned a lot of techniques looking at those girls because then they can do a lot of stuff you know so it's actually been quite

interesting on as a side note and so I basically was breaking it down like and looking at the anatomy I was on the phone with Aaron, like on a constant basis. And the other girl on my team talking about, okay, so if this happens, so we stimulate, you know, so the way I've understood this whole process is that when we get aroused, the female system gets engorged, which means that the blood fills the tissues, the erectile tissues, which are on the vaginal wall, but also covering all of the genital parts tissues, the erectile tissues, which are on the vagina wall, but also covering all of the genital parts. So the clitoris, the legs of the clitoris, the bulbs, the lips, everything has erectile tissue that can engorge with blood. And when the blood flow comes

with the oxygen, which is also carrying the nitric oxide and an nitric oxide actually connects the nerve ending. So that, you know, substance is what gives you the connection to pleasure. So it's very important first to be hydrated and to be aroused enough in order to get to those level of heightened pleasure and consequently heightened orgasms. Very often the woman isn't prepped enough, hasn't had the time to relax, connect, surrender, be in her body, engorge aroused you know in 10 minutes

you can't get that process done we need a minimum of 20 minutes for the physiology to transit from a place of you're just normal to a place where you're now fully prepared to experience pleasure it's not so quick so that's one of the first issue we have in the culture we have today. So, so quick, you know, porn, there's no preparation. They go straight in. The second thing was really to understand the anatomy and the fact that when this engorgement process happened, one of the biggest myths around female pleasure is that we have to be, to have a tight vagina, right? So a lot of us, especially after you have kids, do a lot of Kegel exercises and you

squeeze a lot your pelvic floor because you've heard if you don't you're gonna have a prolapse if you don't you won't be able to succumb to whatever inside you you won't have pleasure you won't give pleasure you're basically no longer the woman you could be it's just a lot of pressure i mean i felt it you know after the two kids so squeezing squeezing like a maniac you know and what happened with squeezing it's a bit like with any other type of exercise you create hypertension in one direction so a lot of women end up with hypertension is a painful floor and orgasm happened from a place of relaxation so it's about pushing into your pleasure not

squeezing into your pleasure and when you push into your pleasure then you increase the engorgement and what happened is when your erectile tissues inside the vagina fills with blood, creates the suction effect. And that's what's very pleasurable. And there's no effort there. You're not squeezing, doing anything. You're just pushing into it and it's filled with blood and fully engorged. So you have this amazing suction effect that you will struggle to move a finger around when you're really prepared. So that was the first thing. How do we get a body to be in that state first? Then the second stage is to do with getting over this mental block that we're going to pee ourselves.

Because in order to squirt, you have to let go of this and feel like you're peeing. But is it a different thing? Yes. So if you're aroused, it's not the same channel. thing yes so if you're aroused it's not the same channel it's a liquid that does not have the uh the filtering uh debris that comes from urine so it's not actually it's not gone through the whole filtering system it's happening locally is that achieving an internal orgasm then no so there's a completely different thing so squirting does not come necessarily with an orgasm but some people can report squirting orgasms where as they release into an orgasm is also when the whole system

relaxes and then they're able to squirt it's quite difficult to do with penetration because it's not a lot of space so sometimes a lot of people i talk to say they haven't squirted and then when i ask specific question they actually have and this is when you have a pool of wetness under your body after you have sex and you're like, what is that? This would have been squirt coming out when you have penetrative sex, but you didn't necessarily notice it coming out because it just leaked out. When, if you do it with your own fingers yourself, or if it's finger stimulation, you can feel, you know, the different quality of, of, you know, of fluid that would come up. Sometimes it's a little bit more like a river. Sometimes it has a bit more pressure, you know the different quality of of you know of fluid that would come up sometimes it's a

little bit more like a river sometimes it has a bit more pressure you know just depending how long the stimulation has been etc just to go back to what you mentioned a second ago about the 80 you know 80 of women can't achieve internal orgasm with that stimulation of the clitoris let's say and why is that what is well there's lots of uh reasons some of it is again uh our expectation and formatting around this just don't line up with the anatomy and and the way the system works um so a woman who hasn't sensitized her internal walls so let's say we have a practice on the app that's called a bowel feedback where you basically put a finger in your vagina and you try and guess where your finger is and usually the first time

you do this exercise you would probably see that 80 percent of your walls you can't tell because you've lost sensitivity through excess friction sex and that's when usually people say oh i'm bored after 10 minutes during sex. Yeah. Because there's not enough sensations. Is that to do with the fact that it's more catered for the male and that's something that they physically enjoy? Or is that just something that's developed through pornography that we think is how sexual... No, it was there before. I think men really enjoy friction based on their penis and therefore they look for that. And because sexuality and pleasure has been orientated around their pleasure,

then that's how we always believe we should be behaving. And to be honest, I think... And question why we're not enjoying it. And then question why we don't want it as much as them. I have a massive problem with that, that people just say that men are more sexual because I think it also allows for so much behavior. Do you know what I mean?

Saying that men want sex sex more i don't think that that's true so men are more satisfied with the kind of sexual pleasure that they usually access they're not made more sexual but of course if you like something you are more going to be drawn towards it if a woman we are not or rarely satisfied then who wants to go and do it but if we were we would if we were reaching our potential as women i wouldn't think we'd get out of the house for quite a few months i literally believe that i mean it's our potential is unpaired the landscape of orgasms and experience and the length and depth by which we could have sex is an endless potential for us uh we can have multiple orgasm we have cervical

orgasm we have breast orgasm we have anal orgasm we have we're gonna have to go into something talk about multiple orgasms because that's again something that people you know you see it in pornography and you're like i have no idea what's going on so going back again to you know the kind of science so a clitoral or ejaculatory orgasm which is most of the orgasm that we have they trigger the sympathetic nervous system so it means the excitation their their kind of quality is about rising quick having a high peak and then a refractory period where the system has to cool off yeah when we go into higher states of arousal and we start learning how to edge which means how to not have a quick orgasm. But if let's say you are at zero when you're not aroused and 10 is your climax, learning to flirt with the seven or eight, learning to stop yourself going over the edge, relaxing for a moment, and then going again.

And building those little plateau is helping you step up the potential for the pleasure you will get at the end. So a lot of the recommendation we make is don't have a quick masturbation practice that trains you to last for six minutes and then expect as a man or woman to have a great sexual experience that might last for longer. Because it's like, if you don't do the right training, you won't get the right results. So a big part of what we teach people is to rethink their masturbation practice as training ground for great sex so much of our focus is on the destination on the orgasm so we spend the entire experience chasing the orgasm we know one of the most fundamental principle of mindfulness you know being present and therefore having pleasure is in the moment,

is to actually being able to slow down, you know, and build sensation is what's going to keep you present. So if you get bored by sex, you know, the answer is going to always be find more sensation in your own body, build your pleasure potential for yourself. Because once you know how to unlock your pleasure, you won't rely on your partner anymore. And suddenly you become a very self sufficient. Doesn't mean you don't need a person to provide for you. Doesn't mean that suddenly you're this independent lover that just works for themselves and is like, I'm just here for me. Doesn't have to be that, But you become a lot less dependent. Expectations become a lot less about the other person. And it also creates a healthier dynamic in your relationship.

Because another fundamental principle is that you're responsible for your arousal. You're responsible for your sexual satisfaction, not your partner. Going back to, you know, men are more sexual, leads to bad behavior. We feel so much responsibility often that if we don't please them they're gonna go and see elsewhere because now we can't provide and it's that's a lot of yeah how people feel in relationships sometimes and can we talk about that in terms of how to have these because obviously you're so well versed in it and it's very easy for you to have these conversations but for someone listening that might not feel that comfortable having it I'd like to go into that a little bit well I think the first thing to say is

if you ask any man they would prefer to be with a woman that knows her pleasure you can ask them all all they want is a girl who writes them and exactly what she's doing had the best time and they just don't really have to worry about it that's actually what they actually really enjoy the role of the masculine, I would say in terms of energetic, you know, dynamic is to hold space so that the woman can fully express themselves. Men are really eager to please ultimately, you know, so we always say they take their pleasure. They're also the victim of the system. You know, they also been told that this is what's okay. And, And so I think education is important.

And it's also why it was very, very clear that I wanted CAMA to not be specifically designed for women, but to be very much gender agnostic and think of the body. And the body is the technology that we are talking to here. And the optimizing and understanding of the body is really what this is all about. So whether you are in that body or halfway between this idea of who you are or all the way into a clear definition for who you are, it doesn't really matter. I think the education should really not focus too much

on that and really bring back the fact that we all have feminine and masculine energy. We are all allowed to take the lead and receive and give and that those dynamics need to be discussed. And one of the things we're designing at the moment is actually a form of dashboard that would be a feature that people can look at and share where they actually start selecting what they like and what they want. All their erogenous zone what do they want to explore and be able to exchange this before sexual experience with their partner and that becomes like a starting point for conversation and so important yeah i think that should 100 be normalized because we do go into these sexual experiences not talking about

them guessing as we go and often you know and this is my personal experience I've I've met a lot of people um I've met some men who for whatever reason for whatever like sociological reasons they put aspects of their sexuality into a sort of a box like a shame box so I think actually encouraging people to have these conversations at the really early stages before actually getting into bed with someone so that you are okay you know you know you're on the same page and you know how to communicate those desires with the other person yeah you know it's normal to be attracted to other people to have weird fantasy and the health of a relationship is to have the safety

to be able to communicate those things without doing them doing them or if we even want to do them that still that can be a conversation yeah yeah and whether it's not a conversation that it becomes then it goes into a place which will then be associated to shame then we start doing things which are like hiding and cheating and hurting each other and often ending in a place precisely where we didn't want to be by provoking that conversation and i would also say that on an energetic level we we know a lot of what's going on and we pick up on things even if it's not being outwardly communicated and actually people could just be more radically honest and stuff. I think it would save so many things. That's exactly my new value is relationships now,

is radical honesty. Every connection I have that has this potential to be intimate, I offer this as what I want. And I think it's been welcomed as something really new and edgy, but you can see that it's not easy. And I think that the younger generation, you know, we're going into a new culture, a new world. Everything's very nuanced. Where everything will have to no longer be binary in its expression, which means that brands who don't understand that shift will get left behind you know so these people really the position of this younger generation is i don't have to tell you

what my choice is actually yeah because today i feel this way maybe tomorrow i want to be with other types of people and ultimately what they're really bringing back is that what matters is connection yeah how do you feel that's affecting people in terms of the social constructs around relationships in a typical sense that the reason we have marriage is kind of almost an outdated concept now? It was based on often an economic thing and we're moving into this new era. Do you feel that you can see people changing that in terms of having more polyamorous relationships less monogamy you do oh yeah i've seen i see it

everywhere i see it everywhere already and i think i mean connected to a you know groups of communities which are a little bit ahead so it's more of a kind of informing what's coming then i think saying it's a mainstream thing. It's not yet, but I have no doubt that we are going to be going into very, very different relationship dynamic. And within the next two to five years, so soon, we're going to see couples opening up their relationship to having a third person come in. I we have the apps now dating app dedicated to find finding you know a sexual partner just for sexual experience yeah yeah which are very focused around okay you you want to experience being a dom put that out the kink space for me is a very interesting field of exploration yeah this was like another thing that was like exciting me about the research is to discover that actually kink which is often associated to dungeon and leather and

being side of yeah very stereotyped yeah is actually a psychological like a psyche exploration of how to get to know and accept yourself better because ultimately your edges is where you define yourself i mean if we're all in the middle we're all in the middle and that's great and that's where we find connection and and we relate and we want to do the similar things but then there is all these edges that often we've been told sigmund freud again that we have an unconscious subconscious that is programmed at our childhood and in that time we have a subconscious that is programmed at our childhood. And in that time, we have our first sexual experience, a sexual energies experience for the first time between the age of zero and five in whichever form. It could be that you see something sexual. It could be that you see your

parents kissing or touching, but you feel the sexual energy. You're not very conscious of it. Those experiences would define your arisal cues for the rest of your life. So usually this is where your edges come from your king come from something that happened in childhood that you don't even remember i remember this guy who told me he had a foot fetish and he was like searching for why and his obsession and he remembered that when he was at school he was always in suspension and the girl who was looking after them she used to take her of her shoes and rub her feet and that turned him on as a six-year-old boy he got obsessed with that and since then

you know so it's it and it's very important when you think of sexual trauma as well and the imprint around shame and you know you've been told as a kid don't do this it's dirty when you're touching your clitoris because it feels good and you're fucking fine and you don't you're not doing something wrong you're not doing something wrong but we're told don't do this it's not good or hide so you know that comment yeah can take away pleasure for years for for young women you know but feeling that you are wrong and broken because you have certain desires is also how we end up self-bullying and having this internal chatter that we're not right, that something is wrong with us. Why do we have those thoughts? You know, the most common fantasy is rape fantasy.

Wow. This idea to have something taken from us without our permission. There's some erotic aspects of that. Of course, no one wants that to happen. And of course, we shouldn't act on it. But there is an interesting articulated play between pain, pleasure, provocation. There's lots of elements to it because it's a complex structure.

Sexuality is an intimate, deep place where we hide some of the things we never tell anyone. You know, we contract a lot in that area. So it's very important to, through kinky exploration, could be a great way to unlock and accept pieces of yourself. Well, I love what you said about it's through pushing up against those edges is how we kind of define who we are. I was speaking to a girlfriend about this recently because I think sometimes in sexual experiences, it's not that you're not turned on,

but let's say it's like relatively new and you're kind of exploring each other and the man will make, again, I'm going off my personal experience, the man will kind of do something that's you do want it but then yeah and there's this thing in your mind that kind of basically we've been so conditioned to allow and so it's like you're like oh well i i i'm i'm guess enjoying it so okay but there's a very different energy exchange behind it and I think that's

afterwards when sometimes people feel and you know we it's a really complex area because people will say well you know you slept with them socially you want and you wanted to at the time but there's something different that's happening and it's something that we really need to own ourselves in that moment it's like am I allowing this or am I actually you know fully surrendering and wanting to receive it or am I just kind of going along with the moment because I think that's when we feel bad afterwards totally and I think that uh very often uh what we call first touch in our language is too soon you know you kiss a guy for a minute and before you know it, he's got his hands between your legs and you think, you know, I remember when we do like this other little experiment at the moment for first time sex. So this is for my 16 year old son hasn't had sex. And then his cousin

had sex 19. And then together, them and my experts, we created a curriculum for first time sex. So what do you need to know before you actually have sex and one of the things which is in the course is unless the girl is begging for you to touch her genitals don't go there she will get there if she wants to and i do think that's something that needs to be educated for the man it's quite simple because what men and then a woman would just go crazy and then when she's crazy and aroused everyone's gonna have a good time so i think men think if they go there and you're gonna happen but also if you're aroused because you can be you can be turned on and still not want it and i think that that is an important distinction to make because i think men when they're you know hard or whatever they're like okay i want to have sex it's very

different very different so if they think a woman's wet and they're like oh well she's ready she wants it it's like no that's not necessary the other thing that's very problematic because of this commoditization of sex and how quickly we go into it is women doesn't have the time to seduce women seduction is the most important aspect of their general arousal for most women they need to be able to also feel that their power is what's having an effect if they already have the prize you know before doing anything about it before having the time to seduce and very often what happens is as the woman goes into seduction she looks like she's ready because she's starting to move her body and finally getting, but that can last for hours for women sometimes. And that's a pleasure zone.

That seduction can be the most exciting part, the built up, which will then become the resolution would be so much greater actually based on how much time you had not touching the genitals sometimes. And this is for me i had you know i say not one two three which is nipples and the pussy i'm like you know i sometimes literally have to say not one two three not one two three for me it's like one two three they go bam bam bam and it's like the code it's not a code that code does not work and the other thing you said which i think is very valuable inside is the fact that if we don't do it, we feel like we are prude. We are not sexual enough.

If we say no, it's too soon. You know, it's like, so you're not sexual enough. Me, very often, I let things happen thinking, especially on the first date, you want to appear to be this really cool sexual person who's really open and totally orgasmic. And so you kind of go with things. And then you start that pattern you're talking about because if you start doing the wrong things from the get-go you're always going to get served the wrong thing back so then we it's a full so speaking up and actually having the courage to say it's too soon i'm not ready i thought i wanted it but i don't and actually being remember

that consent is at every step even if you are in it yeah you can say actually it's not feeling so good do you mind if we stop and even when you're there you don't need to have sex even if you go on a date that looks like it's going to be sexual and you flirt on the way there and you you still don't have to do it and it was like I needed to hear it I love that one sentence at every step I think think that's really important. And it's true in a couple. You know, probably the biggest question we have from couples is how do we align the arousal? They call it mismatched arousal. Like, I want it, they don't.

You know, how do we make sure that in the dynamic of a couple, there is sexual tension? And sexual tension is a practical thing. It's not an abstract thing sexual tension is being you being aware of the space between us valuing the space between us so if i'm like now i'm standing a meter away from you if i come closer you're gonna feel it because i'm coming closer to your space i'm now in your intimate space more and more so be having this awareness that we're moving closer to the person, that when you come back from work, you don't just kiss the head of your partner, you know, insignificantly. Be

intentional with touch every time. Be intentional with kiss every time. That's what will maintain sexual tension in a couple. And I think on the male side of consent, the way to bring that up, if you are keen to take this and apply it as a piece of advice, check in on the person. Does that feel good? Do you want more? Tell me where you want it. Show me. We encourage a lot of people to do a mutual self-masturbation. So you masturbate in front of your partner. Show them what you like. Show them how you take your pleasure. masturbate in front of your partner show them what you like show them how you take your pleasure they show you how they find their pleasure and then you learn how to touch them they learn how to touch you it's be edgy not saying it's easy to do but if you're gonna have sex with someone

you know you're gonna let them inside whatever or you're gonna have these experiences getting over the hurdle of being able to be exposed in front of them and the other thing which i think work amazing is genital gazing well i was gonna say is that something that you would suggest people do before they actually sleep with someone no i think that's hard to do with someone you don't know but it should not be hard to do if it's your partner it's hard to do because your partner is something you need to work on in your relationship so that practice genital gazing like you know like coca pussy worshiping these kind of things are brilliant to create the relaxation so genital worshiping it's amazing it's basically saying how amazing

your pussy is it feels great it smells great drives me crazy i love it i want to be in there forever and you saying you know i'm dedicated to your cock like that's that's all i want to think about it feels great it's hot it's strong whatever it might be that just really celebrates you know the person's genital because we all have concerns and shame around smell, around the way it looks. You know, women have not really been educated around the variety of anatomical structures. And again, so much shame around that. So having your partner look at you, celebrate you, and also something you should do on your own with a mirror, you know. Well, it kind of ties into porn and because of what a lot of women look like in that industry, a lot of women think, oh, do I look differently?

And then I think there's a really important piece that if we don't feel worthy of desire, we can't actually access it. 100%. And that's not just in terms of, you know, what our genitals look like. That's in terms of what our bodies look like you know the standards of beauty that are existing at the moment and how inaccessible they are to most people and I think that that creates a messaging that means you are not worthy of pleasure and I think women actually struggle to achieve orgasms all these things because on some level they don't feel like they're deserving of it i totally agree with you i think limiting beliefs and permission are some of the biggest blocks to experiencing more pleasure and being able to surrender and have the kind of

orgasms you know that are possible limiting beliefs because we don't have an education and as a result of that no communication no conversation we don't have an education. And as a result of that, no communication, no conversation, we don't feel we have permission. What you're saying about the G-spot is very common. Most women don't think they've got one and they feel inadequate as a result. They feel incomplete, you know? So if you don't, if you think you don't have a G-spot, you will not have a G-spot orgasm because your mind is very powerful as we know and so knowing what you have is literally one of the most powerful steps in the process of accessing that because when your brain knows it's got it it can focus on it and it believes in it and then as we know now with all of the research in

neuroscience and the work of jose spencer and like this, that we can create our own reality just by believing. You know, it's actually physiologically and at a neural level with the plasticity of our brain, we can really have an impact. And this is very true for male pleasure when it comes to the prostate. You know, because there's so much stigma around men having pleasure in their bum, they're missing out and you know think about also you know the thing we haven't talked about which is the connection between spirituality and the sacredness of sexuality which has been just mutilated totally so sad for us to have

separated this and created so much trauma yeah and i mean ultimately that's kind of really why I wanted us to have this conversation so how does that for you tie in and how can we start to detach the shame pieces around it and actually start having our sexual self-practice as a spiritual one you know sometimes I find that the best way to get ideas across is common sense. And the beauty about what we're doing is there's a lot of common sense, but actually what we've been doing is not common sense. And so the idea that sexuality is sacred, of course it is. We create life through sexuality. This is how we are able to create a being in our own system because of sexuality so by principle

it's very natural by principle it should be celebrated by principle is divine whichever way the expression is for you even if that spiritual you know space for you is the connection with yourself that's enough or whether it's a connection with a higher being or if it's the belief that there is something, you know, bigger than us, then that should never be disconnected from this idea that we can create life. It's the creative center.

And what's really important is that so much of our medicine, especially when it comes to sexuality, is focused on reproduction. But, you know, sexuality is not anymore useful reproduction anymore we actually most of the time try to avoid reproduction during sex so what are we doing with it when we're not reproduction well we're still creating we're still connecting this is this energy that is the only energy we can create most energy we consume you know we release. This is an energy we can actually build into the system. And what's interesting is when you are in a deep state of meditation, or when

you are in an orgasmic state, whether through an orgasm or high states of arousal, you're stimulating the same part of your brain, you're transcending. So what I have discovered in my meditation practice, my mindfulness practice, is that arousal is an amazing tool for transcendence and amazing tools for deepening your mindfulness practice because it gives you sensations, which means you stay present. So if you think about traditional meditation, basically it asks you to sit on your own, close your eyes and don't move and don't think.

Now, that's a very advanced practice it's it's impossible for people to pick that up from nothing the most important part of mindfulness is what i call effortless mindfulness which is basically being in a mindfulness state and and that means that every moment of the day you're being mindful when i drink the tea i connect with the sense of taste what what am i tasting here how does it feel on my mouth when i'm outside i stop a moment just a second to feel the wind on my face you know it's it's this thing that i was the most skeptical around when i first started this practice working with amazing experts who said to me repeatedly it's through sensuality that we can get better sexuality. It's by reconnecting with the senses and depolarizing from the head where all the

energy is stuck. Because we've designed a society where you are evaluated through your intellectual capacity, unless you are an athlete and your body is first. But generally, we grew up as people thinking the intellect is what's going to give you your success in life most of the time i think our culture is disembodied and it's very dangerous because when you're disembodied you're not safe you're not in your body well also that ties into so many things and i think we're seeing it a lot at the moment is that we're not in a state of self-trust because we don't have that harmony between our minds and our bodies and so we often feel at war with them and we're in such a linear

way of thinking that we get in this fear-based mentality a lot of the time because we don't know how to tap into our bodies also i love that idea of it's becoming more sensual you know tapping into our sensuality to access our sexuality reprogramming my sense of my senses i mean it's been one of the most fundamental change that allowed me to shift how i experience you know pleasure in general and this is the one of the beautiful surprises which we don't make promises around any of this but this is one of the most beautiful surprise that people get when they start really connecting and learning about themselves and being more

in their body is that it really communicates and people are drawn to it and they want that and it's one of the messages that we we really want to get people across is that if they listen to this conversation and it just feels so unaccessible and you know someone may think I have pain every time I have sex I'll never get there what I really want to tell you know people who think that they will never have access to to this kind of pleasure or to this potential is that it's possible because we've designed a practical method that is not just about sex. That's also about loving yourself, about using the brain plasticity. Use your tools.

It's not just about your will. Your body has loads of potential tools that can support you if you know them and understand them to get there. So you're not on your own. There's you, your mind, your body, your brain, your heart. It's a team. You're not on your own. There's you, your mind, your body, your brain, your heart.

It's a team, you know? And so when we don't spend as much time in our head, just dissociating from the thought is the healing process already starting. Totally. We should use pleasure as a way to stay present. It's the fastest and most compelling way to go back to homeostasis. It's what we have built into the system.

Pleasure is what we've got as an asset to combat depression, stress, tension, anxiety. We've got this tool. It's there and it's infinite. There's no limit. So we're very familiar with how much pain we can suffer and all the different pain we don't like. And we know so, so many things about pain. But, you you know you ask people to describe all different types of pleasure they like and what you know a lot of people don't know yeah so this is about simply changing the focus and actually taking every moment of the day to have pleasure just take every opportunity you can even if it's

touching something like now i'm touching you so far it's kind of soft i'm noticing that it's off just that you know when you walk you know bare feet in the grass whatever just connect just just that will take you out of your mind for a moment you had for a moment and slowly that's the avenue that you think you would never have suddenly you would start feeling calmer suddenly you'd start wanting to do more of that and you'll feel happier and you feel a little bit more energized. So it's a slow process. It's reprogramming, you know. But it's accessible and it's doable. It's super accessible to anyone.

Anyone can do this. So that is the superstar powerhouse that is Chloe McIntosh. I felt so alive and invigorated after our conversation because, like I said, she just knows so much about the subject. And when you speak with someone that is so passionate and so strong and so feminine, so fierce, it's really inspiring to be around. And also she's just really fun as well with everything. around and also she's just really fun as well with everything I think when we get to our 30s or we go through our Saturn return we definitely have well I can only speak for myself but we feel like we should have so much stuff figured out and yet there's so much that we still need to learn and sexuality is a really key piece here because what we learn in school is so basic and then we

really start to uncover parts of ourselves and dismantle certain beliefs and certain stereotypes and perhaps you know our sexuality changes perhaps we start liking women who knows what it might be but I would just encourage you to be open and allow yourself to flow and allow yourself to be free and expressive because it is our life force and it is so interconnected into our spiritual practice and there is just so much still to learn and I feel like this episode sort of scratched the surface and I would encourage you to get the camera up and you know start practicing more because it's really well demonstrated and I consider it part of my education now which is a lot of fun so I hope you enjoyed this episode and I would love it if you

could share it with a friend that you think might find it useful I would also suggest making your partner listen to it because again in relationships a key reason so many of them break down is because of lack of communication and that's particularly apparent I think often in the bedroom because if we don't communicate early on we feel like we we can't lay it down the line and there's definitely a way to have these conversations and ultimately we want to make each other happy and to have good experiences so let's just destigmatize this conversation a little bit and encourage each other to have it you can find out more about chloe and the camera app at camera.co that is

k-a-m-a dot c-o and you can download the app on any Apple phone and you can follow our astrological guide, Nora, on Instagram at Stars and Klein. I'm at Kagi's World and you can now follow the podcast at Saturn Returns Co. Like I mentioned at the top of the episode, we are going on tour in February 2022. So if you would like to come and see me live, I'll put a ticket link in the show notes.

Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Barrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.