Saturn Returns with Caggie - 5.1 The Daily Discipline With Yrsa Daley-Ward

Episode Date: April 18, 2022

Yrsa is an author, actor, model, storyteller and screenwriter. She is most known for her debut book, Bone and her autobiographical novel, The Terrible, which won the PEN/Ackerley Prize. Yrsa also co-wrote Black Is King, Beyoncé's musical film and visual album. As Saturn is associated with boundaries and discipline, this episode demonstrates how important these principles are for our creativity. Paradoxically, when we plan out and structure our days, and are disciplined with our daily rituals, we create more freedom and space for self expression and allow inspiration to flow. Caggie and Yrsa talk about fear, how to get out of our own way, the alchemy of writing, vulnerability, and share their own sobriety journeys. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. When you come, I think, to a romantic partnership, full, not expecting to be improved upon or not expecting that person to make your life better but full of all that you are ready to share it as opposed to ready to take to feel better it's just such a more powerful space i think i am so excited to be back for our fifth season of saturn returns which is crazy that we're on our fifth season, and to share with you all the conversations that I've had. Now this season we'll be covering some big themes as usual and I hope that this will help you develop your acceptance and recognition of yourself. We are thinking a

lot about Saturnian themes such as authority and responsibility, how we can better authorize ourselves and how we can grant ourselves the space to be seen and heard. Alongside this, we're having plenty of other esoteric cosmic conversations. We take a deep dive into the birth chart and how to interpret it, in the hope that this will help you navigate whatever transition you might be going through. We'll be covering themes such as how to heal from trauma, the history of the patriarchy, themes such as how to heal from trauma, the history of the patriarchy, manifestation, body dysmorphia, unravelling complex family dynamics, and more.

In this episode of Saturn Returns, we explore the mind of a creative, and I am joined all the way from New York City by Yasser Daly-Ward, author, poet, actor, and storyteller. Yasser is best known for her poetry. Her debut collection Bone came out in 2017 and since then she has written a memoir, co-written a project with the one and only Beyonce and inspired thousands of us on social media with her Instagram poetry. In this episode we discuss her life growing up and how she often felt like an outsider. After modelling in the UK she moved to Cape Town when she was 24 years old with 200 pounds in her pocket and whilst there she came across a spoken word evening. The task was to write a poem about family discord. Her performance

brought rapturous applause and she went again and again every week and the audience grew. I wanted to speak to her because as someone that actually has always loved poetry, I wanted to know how she got into the industry, how she broke into it and also about her daily rituals because as someone that's creative, I find it hard to carve out the time, especially as life gets busier, you know, to prioritize these things and make space for them also how she sort of negotiates feedback as a creative individual because when we put ourselves out into the world like that and we get criticism that can often stop us from putting things into the world I know that it does for me so I wanted to speak to her a little bit about that and also whether she ever feels affected by

perfectionism which I am coming to realize is sort of the antithesis of creativity and so I had some really interesting realizations from our conversation and was very inspired by it. As you'll hear in this conversation she was incredibly open and honest. We talk a lot about vulnerability, we spoke about mental health. What particularly struck me was her ability to get out of her own way, to just put things out into the world, to kind of step aside from her ego and know that that's important for other people to receive, to put things out even if they're a little bit messy and her discipline in doing so, which as we've spoken about in the podcast before is

very Saturnian in its principles. I also was surprised to realize, but then actually not so much because it seems to be quite a common theme with many of my guests is that she is sober and discussing her relationship with alcohol and how she used that as a sort of a social mask to fit in, which is something that deeply resonated with me and I'm sure it will with many of you. Before we get into all of this though, let's check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Like anything in life, too much of something will drown you and too little will satiate you. In the same way, Saturn can work for you or against you. One way it can work against you or even sabotage you is when you allow the voice of perfectionism overtake everything you do. It holds you back and plays back an old pattern that feels safe and feels familiar, yet can be deadly to your dearest dreams.

However, you can make it work for you when you use your free will, represented by Mars astrologically, and when you put in place a simple routine that you repeat every day. It sounds simple, sober even, and that's the exact key to using Saturn energies in your life to your advantage. The simple routine has as a purpose to liberate your mind, which in turn frees you from anxious thoughts and brings you closer to where you desire to be, whether that's something you want to create, change, or even maintain. In the cosmic stages, this aspect of ourselves is best represented by Virgo, which we all contain in our birth charts somewhere. presented by Virgo, which we all contain in our birth chart somewhere. The combination of Saturnian soft discipline, channeled into a daily routine such as exercise, daily chores, etc., liberates

your moon, which is your mind. And once your mind is free and present, you'll find that navigating a Saturnian time won't only help you direct your will in the right direction, it will also free you of the prison of over-analysis, which may open up a door of opportunities that can lead you to just about anything your mind can conceive. Hello Yasser, how are you? Hi, I am very well, thank you. I was just saying that I'm really excited because it's warm out here. No, it's not warm out here.

I don't know why I said that. It's getting warm out here. And it's been cold for so long. So I'm really, really happy. So how long has it been since you lived in London? You know, I still, I still sort of classify myself as living in London. I feel like I don't have a specific place where I live.

My apartment is here in Brooklyn. I'm also in London, loads and loads and loads. And I just dot around. I think it helps me continue to feel inspired. And it helps me feel like the world is a little more open. So do you think you take a lot of inspiration in your writing from traveling definitely and from just seeing I think there's something about travel and having to like navigate new spaces that teaches me more about myself

and the things that I can do and and and how I react in certain circumstances and to rely on different resources I think and when I was in London for a long long long time I started to get really depressed and it was it was because I wasn't sort of living my truth in terms of all the the things that I wanted to do I felt like they weren't possible. Was that when you were modelling? weren't possible. Was that when you were modelling? Well, I really, I wouldn't say that I, in a few years ago, I wouldn't say that I ever was a full-on model. I always did it on the side. I wanted to write for a really long time and I have, I've written all my life as a hobby, but I didn't know the way in. I didn't know how to do things. I would send stuff off all the time, it would get rejected. So I was doing, I was modelling things I would send stuff off all the time it would get rejected

so I was doing I was modeling I was acting doing all kinds of things I was a promo girl I used to do promo at the O2 I just did everything to sort of because I'm not from London as you can hear I'm from the north so anything to sort of survive and I think when you're when you're an artist and like trying to navigate London it just just takes you on a lot of different avenues. OK, so you said you've always written. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious if you could say like from what age or from literally when you remember writing. was Jamaican and she impressed on me from a really really early age the need to sort of write and read early and understand text and because of that I just always wanted to do it so as soon

as I was old enough to start reading which was quite young I just I just fell into in love with language and just how we can express ourselves it feels like a really safe place to just say the things that you don't dare to say otherwise that's how I use it anyway I also think that poetry is alchemy in the sense that we can transform like whatever pain or whatever hardships we're experiencing and make it into something beautiful that also makes it digestible for the reader because they can relate to it in a way that doesn't feel so sad do you know what I mean it's like a beautiful kind of sadness yeah I think there's a succinctness that we can use in poetic lines that just they encapsulate a feeling and and then the reader knows what that is without us having to spell it out sometimes.

Sometimes it's what's between the gaps in the lines, I always think. Because you said that, you know, you were sending your writing off and stuff. But what was that process like? Because it's obviously, I think for anyone, how do you tap into that kind of industry? how do you tap into that kind of industry especially poetry is something I've always considered more of a hobby like personally the idea of ever trying to make that into my career would feel far too daunting so how how did you navigate that and when did you get a bit of a breakthrough you know what I didn't always it wasn't always just poetry. Oh my God. I sent this really bad fiction book as well. When I was 18, I wrote this fiction book about four women and it was called Swinging Roundabouts. It was not good. And I sent that out as well. So it's not only poetry,

it's a mix, but I just, I don't know, I've always felt the call towards words and language. And so I was always trying. And eventually I would say the reason why it all kicked off is because I published my work myself and then so Bone was was initially self-published and and I think that that was the answer for me to not wait on these sort of gatekeepers and and people that you know not wait for a yes you know you're now good enough what was because I'm sure that that wouldn't have been easy because I think I mean I don't want to project my own experience or anyone else's but I think we always feel that there are these gatekeepers that hold the keys to our kingdom and often that is with like the big publishing houses or yeah big agencies or whatever it might be, especially in an access point for creativity

and giving ourselves licence to put our work out into the world. But then to sort of come to a place where you're putting it out yourself because the birthing of that kind of thing must have been so challenging emotionally, spiritually. What was that kind of process like for you it sounds gonna sound a bit strange but I think by then I was so ready to put something out I'd experienced so much of life and so so many twists and turns and really like weird twists and turns and really like weird twists and turns.

And I was just like, I'm going to, I've got something to say. I'm going to put it out. And so what, I didn't really know, I didn't have an expectation in mind for how many people would read it. It's just something that I had to do. And so to me, it's a lot more daunting to have all these stories or the stuff locked inside you and not be able to do it. to have all these stories or the stuff locked inside you and not be able to do it. So my MO is to always do it and then worry about it later when it comes to making work.

I just don't want to lose any more time, you know? And certainly there's been a lot to say for many years, but probably wasn't ready. And so when it was time to do the first work, bone, I just did it. Have you ever or do you struggle with perfection in the sort of context of your work? I think that would stop me too much I have things that I put in place that definitely prevent me from doing that too much like I have this online journal newsletter it's called The Utter and I have this online journal, newsletter, it's called The Utter. And I have to, because I promised my subscribers,

I have to write or speak or like go on video like twice a week. And I have to write whatever's in my, it's like a free write, you know, it just comes through. But I've done that on purpose because I think the fear can just cause so much inertia and then you don't do the thing and then you're worrying and all of this wasted energy so I would say in my writing I think I'm quite good at just putting out what's there I mean I can even see in my early writing I'm like I would not do it that way again but I'm glad I did it because there's always another poem another opportunity to make it better if that's what you

want to call it you know but I think time is a you know time is just this it's just moving so I prefer to move along with it so is that a way to kind of hold you accountable in your process by knowing that you have to send that out to your community definitely because otherwise I wouldn't do it and I'd be there saying oh God, this line isn't strong enough. And now this newsletter gets sent out with typos, with missteps, with things that I thought, oh God, why did I put it like that? But it's good for me. I think it keeps me sharp and it keeps me, and also kind of vulnerable.

And sometimes I show on Instagram as well, just the process of like changing words and stuff because I think it's that's also important everything has to be this gorgeous perfect British project yeah well I think that's the most relatable thing is the kind of messiness yeah because we're all messy right we're all messy I know I know I am there's so many things that I have not finished because I think I um I definitely get slowed down by the sort of the beast of perfectionism but you just spoke about something that I'd love to explore a little bit more which I think is so tied into creativity is vulnerability yeah what does that mean to you and kind of can you explore how you express that

in your work it's interesting right because on the one hand you know you deal with sometimes more than one version of you so there's the version that wants to be super honest and that's the version that usually wins and that's when I get I think the strongest work and then there's the version that wants to be a little bit honest for the relatability but then still wants to keep a lot of like my private stuff private and I think that the vulnerability comes I guess with that push pull I think it's important to be vulnerable, especially in art, because art is really just this bridge. So when I'm vulnerable with you, you read it or you listen to it

or you see it in a painting and then you feel it as well. And it's, yeah, I have to remind myself to be vulnerable because I wasn't brought up with that understanding. You know, I was brought up to be like tough or to make it not look like work or to make something not look hard. And so I still have those, that conditioning a lot of the time.

So my writing does bring me back to the space of, oh, you know, you're a human, you cry, you sweat, you know, you bleed, all of those things. And it's fine to be honest be honest if that's it's your job would you be able to share a bit about your upbringing in your background for sure for sure so I was raised by my grandparents in the northwest of England place called Chorley we were the only black people I think I might have been at high school apart from my brother and one other boy with only black people in the whole school and also my grandparents were

really strict religious seventh-day Adventists so there was that so we're very very different to the rest of the people in Jolly and you know not only that just being brought up really far from my mum father passed away and just being raised by by my grandparents and only seeing my mum like now and then it was it was difficult there was a lot of difficulty a lot of my grandparents were very strict so it was a very quiet house full of prayer and all of these rituals. And there are the facts that it was strict and it was religious. And, you know, we missed having parents in the traditional sense. And then there was so much beauty in it. There was so much silence.

I learned to write in that space. I had to invent things, which I think causes me to become a writer I had a really good bond with my little brother because it was just me and him and dealing with all of that so everything is like many things and that's what I'm always sort of saying in writing it's like everything is kind of a gift as well if you can find it I actually found a beautiful poem that you'd written called Poetry, which was about family dynamics. And was that about your personal family experience? It was definitely the elements of,

because that talks about so much tension. And as a kid, I walked on eggshells the whole time because our guardians were really, really strict, you know, and Jamaican in their upbringing. So it's like very, very, you know, quick with the belt, quick with a slap, quick with all of that, just because of what they have learned and what they were taught growing up.

And so, yeah, that is about everything will give you poetry, even those feelings of tension, those feelings of being lonely and feeling less than. You speak a lot about self-love and self-compassion. And I think that that's it's amazing in the sense that there's a lot of conversation around it today, especially self-love. self-love but I think it sometimes gets a bit of a like cookie cutter version of self-love which is you know bubble baths and all the kind of glossy things yeah we've we've really monetized it haven't we we've might yeah we do we eventually monetize everything don't we that's just honestly I have such entrenched like self-care practices but without it I can't get through the week I need them what are they so this year especially I've like dived really headfirst into movement

so every day I have to do some enjoyable form of movement but I have to sweat but it can be anything but I've got to keep it exciting because when it's not exciting then I break off and then I feel rubbish about myself so it has I just said right okay it's got to be fun you've got to enjoy it and also getting sunlight on my face every day like going out even when it's freezing and scheduling time to do things like read something that I find like really fascinating even if that's just like 10 or 15 minutes but I have to do them every day or just go my mood just like declines those are quite good disciplines and they also feel manageable but what happened I'm curious to ask like what happens is mental health something that you have struggled with absolutely my. My God, all my life. I even remember having,

but I didn't know what it was. I remember having disassociation and depression as a kid. And just being like, Grandma, you know, I don't feel real. And my grandma was like, what are you talking about? What do you mean you don't feel real? I was like, I don't feel real. Like, I don't feel like I'm here like I'm sitting in the room but like everything's straight like slightly strange as though I'm viewing it from outside now I now know as an adult those are dissociation because of you know traumatic situations or circumstances but I didn't know at the time it just felt dreamlike and so, over the years, especially as a teenager, the feelings of depression were just insurmountable, like huge. How come they were so bad then?

I think they were, well, I was just finding alcohol, which I loved, absolutely loved. Do you drink now? Oh my God, no. No, and it's not, it's just because it puts more of a dampener on, well, how do I want to put it? I don't think alcohol is bad. I think alcohol can be really, really fun. But for me, I just, I'm in a stage of my life where I don't want to kind of put any sort of creative dampener on myself or any kind of depressant. I feel you. When did you stop drinking? I would say about six years ago, I thought, hmm, I love to go out.

I love going out and I love enjoying myself. But drinking every weekend just felt a little bit and so it was taking me longer to get back to myself on the Monday you know that feeling when it's still kind of it's you feel edgy and it's still it's still sort of inside the next day and the problem the the problem with with alcohol is is is after I think for me for some people it's jarring but for me it was both well I don't I don't drink anymore oh really when did you stop well similar to you I think it was like six years ago where I was sort of looking at my life and I was like if there was a graph of when alcohol was involved I'd be like it takes a dramatic downward spiral or spike but

I just it took me a while to really come to terms with that because it's such a socially normalized thing and I didn't know where I landed on the spectrum and it felt I think it's important to have these conversations because it's such a unique personal thing right how it impacts each individual but there's not enough conversation around that and for me I was like creatively spiritually in my mental health how much it impacted me and yet it was so encouraged and normalized and I was like this just isn't working and it was only actually really when I turned 30 that I was like no more same and and do you think then that I don't know I noticed and I realized when I stopped how much of society particularly like I'll say England because that's where I was

brought up because I don't really know anywhere else but how how much everything is geared around it when I stopped all of a sudden I was looking around thinking, well, God, what do I do now? I know. Because everybody wants to meet for a drink. Even in a work setting, that's where everybody sort of lets loose and gets to know each other, even as an actor. Like when you go, you're on set or whatever, and it's just after. You're like, everybody's there relaxed,

and you're just still trying to figure it out. But, yeah, it's been an interesting road. What has been so cool is to realise what parts of your personality get to get stronger because now you're just yourself and you can be calm in those situations. Or even if you can't, you learn a way to still deal with the social anxiety that comes with not drinking because that's the thing I look back and I think actually it momentarily alleviated the

anxiety but it charged me interest in the morning you know I was like a lot more anxious for days afterwards and so you do find new tools to kind of handle those environments and it also made me a lot more confident strangely after yeah because I think with drinking as well you can't get the balance right because there's a sweet spot where you feel like funnier and brilliant and more alluring than ever and then it goes and then you're not because you do it whatever. It's like Russian roulette though. Right. You don't know when that moment's going to come.

And then the next day you've got to worry about all you've said and done, which who wants that? Because we're all anxious anyway. So yeah, I wanted to take that out of my, I wanted to take that out. There's so many variables that are the variables that we can't control. So to bring it back, because you said that when you were a teenager, that that's when that relationship started. Yeah, and it started really young.

Like I would say I started from about 13. Because I was just so uncomfortable in social situations. I felt so different. Yeah, I felt so different to everybody else I was like obviously again the only black person I was way taller than everybody else you know everything was just so different I had a lot of feelings of of not being like everybody else and I kind of wanted to be still at that stage and then other things you know other things you know distance from my mother who I actually started to live with her when I was about 12 so we went back to her house

and that was distant and then you know wasn't that close to the grandparents and and we didn't we didn't have a father so there was a there were a lot of things that were just very weird that you start to sort of manage with a social life. Because it feels like you didn't have a sense of belonging. Not at all. Not at all. That came later. That came later. When did you have, if you did have one, like a sense of your own vulnerability or like fragility?

Because I think alcohol as well similar to me I always felt very invincible and then it was probably around 30 or a bit before that I was like oh actually I'm human and I can hurt and I can break and actually I need to look after myself a bit more that's really interesting that that's yeah that that's how it came through for you you know what I think I had a sense of it the whole time and I think it was like it's like a monster isn't it in the cupboards and you can see its little feet or big feet and you're like and you're like closing the door on it no I I knew I knew that because because I would actively be like oh I'll just have like a couple of wines before I go to this event you know so you know that already you're like putting on

the costume mask yeah yeah yeah and and you're becoming that thing that you know you can be. How do you view your, for lack of a better word, negative emotions today? Because it sounds like you have a lot of practices that keep your sort of mental health in balance. But how do you view negative emotions I feel like that's right I don't think that we should hide from them because I think there's messages in there they're telling you something yeah because I feel like the world we're living in a little bit is um almost allergic to negative emotion and we're trying to curate and create these versions of ourselves that are in turn causing a lot of upset and depression and anxiety because it's making people just try and squash down those things that are very human but we feel then a lot of shame around expressing them or being them and so we kind of put them in

this box that just spills out we do don't we I was just thinking as you were talking about that and how it's still as I said it's still so much in the conditioning so of course there's something in me when I want to share something that's maybe not as positive I'm like no no you can't say that but thank god I have writing because in writing I can say anything and this is probably why I'm a writer because this is my way of doing it yeah if it was just me oh my god I dread to think I probably wouldn't say anything so the writing is almost like a separate entity yeah I I think so it's you become the vessel for something else, something deeper, and you let it flow and you get the hell out of the way. Because when I'm in the way.

So you channel it. It is. Because if I'm in the way, I'll start saying, oh, no, I'm in the room, like the body's in the room. But like when I'm writing, it's this, it's the other thing. It's the part of me that's got richer from like these early experiences. of me that's that's got richer from like these early experiences but if I don't know I feel like if I was too active in the process that the work would come out differently because I'd be trying for perfection the ego would get in the way yeah who wants that you can't god yeah I'm not allowed I'm not allowed in the room that's amazing that you have that discipline and that awareness over it though because I think I've been employing it for a long time since I was

a kid and it's a place that I I go to to be wild and to let everything come out it's not a conscious thing it's a space it's kind of like a flow state. So it's a space where I just feel comfortable. So it's addictive. How do you manage the feedback? I try not to. I don't really take feedback personally. I can't. And also we're changing so much.

So I'm not even the same me who wrote the book from five or six years ago or the same me who wrote the book that came out in November. It's already changing. So, yeah, I mean, it's lovely if someone connects with the work. Absolutely. And I know, but also it's not a personal thing. They're responding to something I put out there. And anyway, once somebody reads something you've written, becomes theirs it's it's how they interpret it so it's not you can't take the whole credit for it anyway because the soul has to meet what's on the page I love that and what was the experience of writing the how because you wrote that over the pandemic didn't you I know which a lot of people say you know because everyone's like oh this is a time where everyone's gonna go and write books and do all those things but actually equally it

wasn't necessarily the most inspiring of moments in time oh my god do you know do you want to know the truth the truth is that the first part of the pandemic I did absolutely nothing because it was just I was just like what the hell is going on and all I did was like go on YouTube and do like try and follow dance videos and dance to dancehall and afro beats and like learn to twerk and stuff like that that is literally all I did for the first few months and then I was like oh I've got to write a book because I'd already like said I was writing a book and I had no idea what I was doing. But because of all the noise that started coming out of the Internet, out of Instagram and everyone was like baking banana breads. And I was just hearing all this noise, like improve yourself this, you know, all the Black Lives Matter.

And there was so much internet energy coming out. And so my response was this, because I was just like, we were being told how to live and we're being sold to and sold to and sold to. And especially wellness at that time was like at an all time high in terms of, you know, monetizing, monetizing that. So yeah, the how was just this response to an onslaught of how to's and guides, you know, the truth is in you, like the answer is in you. I love that. Was it a hard process in writing it or did it flow quite freely? It's weird. It was both. So when I actually sat down to do it and wasn't procrastinating it was free-flowing but sitting down to write it I would have like a month in between sometimes where I didn't and

then come back to it because it was just it was such a weird time and so I just sat with the noise for a bit wrote a little bit stopped and then did it that way but the chapters came through quite quickly well it's such an important message because I think that you said at that point you realize how disconnected people are from their inner knowing yeah because everyone's just being thrown around following one mainstream narrative and then the next day a completely opposite one and it's like created this sort of whiplash in our society where people don't know who to turn to and you know it's a reminder that actually it's all within anyway it is all within and I have to ask you how did um you work with Beyonce which is pretty incredible.

Yeah. How did that come to be? That came out of the blue. I got the call and I think not the next day, but the day after that, I was in LA doing it. It was that quick. No way. Yeah, it was that quick. But it felt, it felt right it just felt like I don't know how to describe this actually I don't think I've described it before but

it just felt like okay that's that's what I'm doing now and and it was it was a really beautiful process yeah it was collaborative and it was lovely and yeah I feel really honoured to have worked on on Black is King and do you um because you mentioned it a second ago about procrastination which is quite a common thing for writers is that something that you do struggle with quite a lot and how do you manage it well I okay so this is my trick that I'm telling anyone who will listen. And it's really working for me. I schedule the day out to a T. Like, I really, like, on my Gmail calendar, like, it's like two hours of this,

one hour to do this, two hours of this. Because then, instead of having to find this mythical, crazy, like this idea of motivation, which I'm sorry, in the middle of winter in Brooklyn, I just don't have. The habit is there, like it's on paper, it's there. So I just have to look at what I'm supposed to be doing in that time and do it. It's as simple as that. So it's like I feel like a robot just going through the motions. People might think that's not like artistic and it's not, it's the most inspirational thing I've ever done. Because then, you know, then it gets done.

Hold you accountable to it. Right, you are, because you see it written down there and it's there like each day at this time. And when I do that, I find myself having to rely less on my reserves and like pull myself through because it's there and then I go oh you know I've got this conversation with Keggy and then after that I will do my hour of I don't know whatever I'm doing so you schedule in even sort of the more mundane things like walking or yes it must because it won't happen I know what

I'm like it's not gonna happen I'll just sit there and just be like la la la turn on YouTube you know look at something be like oh my god he's doing what who said what and then I'll look at something else's you that's what it'll be and then it'll be four o'clock and I'll feel like I don't want that I don't want that for my life anymore so it's it's just it's just doing that and do you know what I found that there's more time in the day to do what you want if you schedule things out you actually end up with about like a couple of extra hours where you're just like now I can just watch euphoria or now I can you know what I mean and I think it's so important

as artists or creatives to give yourself or anyone for that matter to give yourself that sense of achievement because otherwise I mean I tend to do these lists and it starts off quite practical and by the end it's like world domination and I'm like I'm never gonna do that I don't want to start I'm not gonna do any of it and then start procrastinating again they have to be like sustainable it can't be like I'm gonna work three hours on my novel today if I know that's not gonna It's procrastinating. Again, they have to be, like, sustainable. It can't be like I'm going to work three hours on my novel today if I know that's not going to happen. But I have to spend time with it.

Like, sort of kiss it and move on, you know? That's my sort of philosophy at the moment. I love that. And can I ask, so how much has your life changed and your sense of identity changed since you were 29? I think I had a lot of depression at that time. If we talk about like the monster in the cupboard, let's go with like the opposite. So it's something like glimmering and gleaming and it's sort of behind the curtain.

I think I could see what I wanted because before that I hadn't really had an idea I knew that like you know if you think about it very in a very vague sense like I wanted to write I wanted to work in tv I wanted to work in film but it didn't feel tangible and you know one thing I wish I'd known is that just small incremental things make the difference like the little habits that we stack even if you write you forgot if you write a page every day you'll end up with a book you can have a book in like 60 days actually the daily discipline yeah just day just small daily things and attention to the things that I love I don't think I spent enough time to the things I love to do like what writing

for fun um spending time with people who I find inspirational not people who drain me who I I'm friends with because I've been friends with for a long time or friends with because I feel like I have to like go and do this because that's what you do I'm a bit of a I'm no I'm not going to say loner because that sounds a bit dramatic but I'm an introvert like solitude I love it I spend a lot I spend like a lot of time alone but also I've I've realized that the need to be in community and learn how you can grow in community and grow in love the love that isn't like romantic love but is love for your your friends and other people yeah which is huge it's so underrated so underrated it was the biggest lesson for me in my Saturn Returns journey I was

like oh this can be just as profound yeah as romantic love and just as you know life-altering and it's been the most foundational part of my life I think and in some parts it's just so because it's kind of there are less conditions on it and so more room to grow yeah and space for honesty yeah in a different in a different way, in a different way. Yeah. And have you changed in terms of your relationship to romantic love over these years? Ah, yeah, I think I have.

I think I have. I remember when I was younger, it was like, it used to be this thing, oh my God, it'll make everything nice, it'll make everything perfect, life will just have a glimmer to it. And now it's like, yeah, it's an enhancement, but in a different way, because I enhance me. I bring forward my best self. Again, it's only a projection, right? So when you come, I think, to a romantic partnership full, not expecting to be improved upon or not expecting that person to make your life better,

but full of all that you are, ready to share it as opposed to ready to take to feel better. It's just such a more powerful space, I think. And that's how I view romantic love now. It's something that I'm sharing instead of something that I'm I'm sharing instead of something that I'm like getting high on you know yeah I mean you get high on it as well don't get me wrong but you know it's it's it's a different space and you attract a different type of person

I think yeah that place yeah and and you also feel like you can there's more space in it you can go slower you can be a bit more honest because you're not like trying to present this like perfect version of you yeah which is not let's be honest it's not sustainable is it it all comes crashing down at some point so so yeah so space sounds like it's quite a big theme in your life or has been over these years, creating space. It's something that I speak about and I'm trying to encourage in my own life more is like space for feelings, space for creativity, space to sort of explore the unknown

and not be afraid of it. Yeah, yeah. A space is space to dream, space to mess up, space to start again. It's all really important. Who can grow in like a tight area? You need to be able to move. And if something isn't working, come back and assess why it isn't working or try something different. And I think I can only create because there's space to do so. Well, thank you so, so much for talking with me. Thank you. This has been beautiful. Thank you so much for having me. And I hope you enjoy the rest. What have you got on? What's scheduled for the rest of the day?

Oh my God. So I haven't worked out yet. I still need to go out. I've got to run errands. I've got to do an audition tape. But there's no fear because they're all in there. I'm going to try and take a leaf out of your book and start scheduling.

I've got Bester. What really struck me about this conversation was how Yersa schedules her day out to a tea. Now, as someone that considers themselves a creative person, this is definitely something that we wouldn't associate with creativity. Well, I wouldn't anyway. And so I found that kind of paradoxical in a way, but it seems that that's

how she gets things moving I think a lot of creative people feel this struggle with actually starting something because we build these things up in our mind that they have to be perfect and finished and we have a whole day to create them and it's unrealistic but actually making sure that it's digestible pieces like we do an hour here we go for a walk so this importance of our daily rituals our daily discipline I found really fascinating and I'm going to try and do it a little bit more I hope you guys will do the same also that she stopped drinking six years ago because she didn't want to put a creative dampener on herself this is something that deeply resonates with me and when I talk about sobriety I talk about it how drinking became

like spiritually dark for me and sort of blocked me in some kind of way and I know loads of you guys have messaged me about this so I'm sure that it will resonate with you guys as well. I also really like what she had to say about writing being a separate entity to herself, a vessel for something deeper, because as someone that when I try to put things out into the world, or whether I'm writing or doing art, whatever it might be, it feels too me, it feels too vulnerable, and then I often stop myself or I sabotage,

my ego gets in the way because it feels too vulnerable and it feels too vulnerable and then I often stop myself or I sabotage my ego gets in the way because it feels too vulnerable and it feels too raw I don't want to share it with other people in case they criticize it and what's amazing about her is her ability to get out of her own way to put things out into the world because she realizes it's important for other people it's bigger than her so I really love that and I'm going to try and I'm going to try and incorporate that into my lifestyle a little bit more thank you so much for listening and remember you are not alone goodbye Goodbye.