Saturn Returns with Caggie - 5.3 Unlocking Your Authority with Elise Loehnen

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

In this episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie is joined by Elise Loehnen. Elise was the former Chief Content Officer at Goop and co-hosted the Goop podcast, she is an established writer, having co-written an incredible 11 books, including 5 The Sunday Times bestsellers and has co-written with names such as Ellen DeGenres, Gwyneth Paltrow and Sophia Amoruso. She also hosts her own podcast show called 'Pulling the thread.' In this episode, Caggie and Elise discuss the importance of establishing your own voice and the internalised patriarchy we all wrestle with. They explore the Seven Deadly Sins, how they originated and why you may be subconsciously programmed to behave a certain way because of them. Elise is also incredibly open about her personal struggle with granting herself authority and allowing herself to be seen, which for someone so accomplished is staggering, and proves that our struggles to grant ourselves authority over our own lives goes far deeper than we think.   --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Our whole moral code has been given to us by an outside authority. And as you just said, so much of childhood, so much of being a woman is like, is this okay? Is this okay? Too much? Comfortable? Am I overstepping? Today, I'm joined by the wonderful Elise Lewin, writer, editor, podcast host, and former chief content officer at Goop, the wellness and lifestyle brand. Now, I first discovered Elise when I was listening to the

Goop podcast which has been a favorite of mine for a very very long time and as podcasts go I felt like I sort of knew her and she was like a friend from afar I love her mind I love how inquisitive she is I love the questions that she asks and so I wanted to speak to her now that she's stepped down from Goop and is doing her own thing and what that process has been like. Now, Elise has co-written a phenomenal 11 books, including five New York Times bestsellers, co-authored with names such as Ellen DeGeneres, Gwyneth Paltrow and Sofia Amoruso. accomplished to say the least but what was so fascinating about this episode was her sort of negotiating and struggling and stepping into her own authority which is something that I can very much relate to and I think a lot of our listeners will too and it's a big theme in navigating your Saturn returns it's like no longer allowing the keys to your kingdom to be with other people

to really carve out your own path but all that comes with all the fear that that comes with all the vulnerability of being truly seen of taking that responsibility and in elisa's process you know she was able to be by the side of these very powerful figures but in the shadows and so what i love is that she's stepping out of the shadows and doing her own thing and her book that she's stepping out of the shadows and doing her own thing. And her book that she's writing at the moment, which we discuss in this episode, is structured around the seven deadly sins as a device to investigate the internalized patriarchy that we all wrestle with. In this conversation that you're about to hear, Elise explains how

the idea of the deadly sins has shaped and in fact controlled us as women, which is so fascinating. It's not something I was really aware of, but after having this chat, it really hit me that actually our subconscious is very programmed by these very things. And so kind of dismantling it in this way was such an interesting conversation and I hope you guys enjoy it. We also touch on the idea of expanders and for those of you that are familiar with Lacey Phillips who also came on the show and is an incredible podcaster and human being and I adore her and her work revolves around manifestation and in short this idea is about jealousy as one of the deadly sins but how actually we can use

jealousy to expand ourselves. You know, when we see someone that's doing something we want to do, rather than feeling like there isn't space for all of us, see it as evidence of what we are able to achieve, how we can expand ourselves to grow. And that person is evidence that we can do so.e. to use it as inspiration rather than this need to swap people down as we explore in this conversation. If you want to hear about this episode that I have with Lacey, she's been a guest on the show and you can do so in finding episode 14 on series two. Elise is very open in this episode about her struggles with granting herself authority to be seen and

to be heard. This is something that I personally struggle with and I know many of you will too. So I hope this conversation gives you confidence to know that not only you are not alone in this but this is very much to do with external influences or systems that have governed us for a very long time and perhaps this is an opportunity to dismantle them. Authority has been such a big theme for me and continues to be because part of being a woman often feels like we have to be small, we have to be agreeable, we have to fit in, don't want to stand out, don't want to be too much. And that can become problematic because we're supposed to grow, we're supposed to expand,

we're supposed to take up space. And that can be challenging. So I hope you guys get something from this episode because I very much did. And you know, to realize that we're not alone in this. So before we get into this episode let's hear from our astrological guide Nora. To be seen or not to be seen a question that's only repressive society and circumstances with birth seen we are to be seen we are to be heard and we are to be seen in astrology there is a simple way to access your ability and possible resistance to being seen in your charts. As you must have heard more than once, you are not just your sun sign, except in many ways you are. The birth chart portrays seven main personal planets, one of them being the Sun, the last one of them being Saturn.

So let's analyze this polarity. Saturn relates to actions of humility and discipline in order to achieve one's own authority in life. Once that's done, how do we see what kind of authority we truly are? This is where astrology can be helpful in helping you uncover, or rather, This is where astrology can be helpful in helping you uncover, or rather, helping you remember who you are. Which is in actuality portrayed by your sun sign. The ascendant plays a role in this, yes, but that's more focused on laying out a blueprint of a cosmic map. So to see how we would truly like to be seen, we focus on the sun. It's not as simple as being a Capricorn or a Pisces or a Taurus,

for there are many layers to this, the degrees, the aspects, the house basements, and then there's a chart within the charts. But universally, the sun-sun helps us see where we naturally shine, where we are naturally seen. It's the part of us that relates to the inner masculine and natural confidence that so many exude naturally. The moon relates to our inner feminine, where we naturally feel safe and nurtured, and it's the part of us that we express predominantly up until our Saturn return. In Vedic astrology, the sun for everyone relates to Atman, which is Sanskrit for essence.

How beautiful is that? Now, how much we have access to it truly depends on our nurturing growing up. It relates to the moon. And this should come as no surprise, it also depends on Saturn, on our relationship with authority figures growing up and how this affected us. I find that when we pass the age of 30, pass our Saturn return, and even more so at 36 when Saturn matures, we discover a deeper meaning and layer to our identity and then we can do nothing except proclaim it, reclaim our sun, our shine, our legacy, our divine breath and essence, our Atman.

Elise, how are you? I'm so excited to speak to you. Oh, well, thank you for having me. Likewise. I'm well. How are you? You must get this a lot, but I feel like I already know you from listening to you so much. I'm like chatting with you like we're best mates and you're like, I have no idea who this person is. I do. I do get that a fair amount, which I really love. I feel

like in a way it's reciprocal. I know that sounds weird, but like, I think you're already starting from a place where you're like, oh, we, we relate. There's so many questions I have about the book, that process, what it's about, and we'll get into that. But before we do, for the audience that doesn't know, would you be able to kind of give a little bit of background, like where you're brought up, where you're from and how you got, how Goop started, how that kind of journey began for you. Sure. I was born in Missoula, Montana, which is a small liberal college town in the Northwest part of the state. And I grew up outside of town. I had horses. I had the most amazing childhood running free in the woods and reading a ton. I mean, it was kind of, I was

kind of isolated, I would say, but just me and my brother, because my mom was like an early person on global warming and didn't like to waste gas driving us unnecessarily into town. And so we spent most of our childhoods with each other and with animals, which at the time, I think I felt lonely. But now I'm very grateful because I recognize like how recharged I am by being alone and by nature. So, yeah, and my parents are both transplants. My dad's South African. My mom is from Iowa. They sort of picked Missoula, Montana out of a hat.

And I had amazing adults in my life growing up, but not a lot of family. And my parents were never intent on us staying really close. So I went to boarding school. I went to public high school for a year in Missoula. Then I went to boarding school. Then I stayed on the East Coast for college and then moved to New York. And I worked in media for a long time. I worked at Conde Nast.

I was at a magazine that's now defunct called Lucky. Then I worked at Conde Nast Traveler. And it's funny, like everything, I'm sure people can relate to this. When I look back at my life, I'm like, oh, every place makes sense. And I picked up all of these critical skills that I've been able to sort of play forward. And I left magazines and New York city right after I got married, because I felt like I was on the Titanic and that if I didn't learn about the internet, I would struggle. And that was accurate. And I moved to Los Angeles for actually a very unglamorous, but amazing job at this random big tech sort of internet at scale, no brand company. Like it was a really strange choice in a lot of ways, but I recognize that the man who hired me could teach me a lot. And I feel like whenever you're evaluating any job or any opportunity that to me,

like, is it going to be a version of college? How much can I learn is as important to me as comp and upside and the value of the brand that you're working at. And for me, it was like zero on brand and 10 on education. And so I did that for three years. It was so fun, so different than working at brands. And very humbling too, because I think that we all have this idea about the way that people should get their information or what we think it should look like or be like.

And then to actually be in a situation where you're testing how people are engaging with the page, to me, it was very humbling. So it was like, wow, my preferences are not the same as most people. And I needed that, like a little bit of that check because growing up in magazines and content that was always one-sided conversation. And that's how we were raised was like, here are the trends and here are the magazines. And this is what you need to look like. And this is what you need to do. And here's how you conform to these unrealistic standards and to actually be in conversation with people and to like, if they don't like it, they're not going to engage it with it. They're not going to read it was so critical for me after 10 years of just putting out a one sided conversation.

And then I met, I've always ghost written books on the side just to make money. And I've always, I've never felt comfortable having one job or sort of relying on a single structure to support myself. So to this point, I've ghostwritten 12 books, which is kind of wild, but I met Gwyneth because I was helping Tracy Anderson and I ended up working with Gwyneth a lot. She had just moved from London. And interestingly, I had the perfect skill set based on this like random job that I knew enough about digital to be dangerous, but to at but it was still just sort of a newsletter with some collaborations. It wasn't the brand that it has become. So, yeah, so I met her and joined up with her and went on like an eight-year wild adventure that was so fun. And I led the content team.

But as any startup, you end up doing so much more. So like that, that is, yes, that's my heart and my passion and my talent, but it was a really fun and interesting ride. And I co-hosted the Goop podcast for many years. We did a Netflix show. We had a book imprint. We did a magazine. So in a lot of ways, it was everything that I had done coalescing in one career. educational gave you that skill set to do something like hosting and having to manage multiple perspectives and be aware of like different people's feelings and experiences whilst having to navigate some challenging topics. Yeah. And if you pay attention, it's like, I think so many people are like, this is not the thing, therefore it's irrelevant. But I think everything's the thing and everything has the lesson, if that makes sense. And I even think about, I mean, I learned so much at my previous job that was applicable

for Goop, but we're on a podcast right now. One of the things that my boss at the time was so early on, this is like 2012, 2011, was we were buying podcast advertising. And so I was listening and like, I was sort of early on obsessed with podcasting. It took me a while to convince Gwyneth that we needed to do a podcast. She actually went on a podcast and was like, that was so fun. We need to do a podcast. I'm like, yes, saying this for five years. But, but for example, like you just don't know where the threads are. And in terms of, you know, moving away from that space, was that a difficult decision? How did that come about? Yeah. I mean, it was hard and

complicated and it's as a creative person who worked in sort of that scale of container for so long. And, you know, and the reason that I ghostwrite did so much ghostwriting is one, I like sort of hiding behind other people, but two, it's like, you also have access to different audiences. And, um, these people typically have megaphones that are far greater than anything, you know, that someone like me would have. And so that's very intoxicating and fun to know that you can change culture, you know, that you can have that sort of impact. And the co-creative part of it was really fun.

impact and the co-creative part of it was really fun. I was very tired and I, you know, I have two small kids and it's funny, I still don't feel like I've recovered. Like I don't have, and I'm getting older anyway, but I don't have that sort of energy. And also, you know, Goop is an e-commerce brand. That's really like where the focus is. And I'm really a content person. And so I think I maybe was an impediment to that ultimate vision of where that, that the brand is going. But then there, it also, I think as a creative person, you get to a place too, where you're like, I don't actually want this to be filtered through any other, I just want to do this directly. Like I just, so I think in that sense, it was time for me to step out and remove extra layers, if that makes sense, and just do content without it being associated with a brand or if that makes sense.

I understand what you're saying because it sounds like it was time for you to be seen, you know, and that's something I've heard you speak about on other podcasts and stuff. And it's something that I think we all struggle with in our own ways. on other podcasts and stuff. And it's, it's something that I think we all struggle with in our own ways. It's like doing things yourself, writing your book rather than being the ghostwriter for other people's and, you know, doing your own podcasts and stuff and kind of think there's something very empowering in that, but it's also scary. It's very scary. And it's funny. It's like the thing that I've been working on is this avoidance of being seen, which is why I'm so much more comfortable being heard.

I love audio. But like, I've also been working around this idea of authorizing myself and authorizing each other, which I feel like women in particular are loathe to do, right? Because we live in this patriarchal culture where men are typically the ones who feel more authorized. I mean, it's like such a long sordid story of how we got here. But for me, it's this like having to sort of own it. I, I, it's the thing I'm really working with is authorizing myself literally and not disclaimering, you know, my mom, when she read sort of an early draft to my book, she's like, make sure they know you're not. And I say this with love to my mother, but make sure they know

you're not a religious, you're not a theologian, you're not a biblical scholar, you're not a historian, you're not an academic, you know? And I feel like so many women are like, let me tell you all the things I'm not. Yeah. And simultaneously, all the things that I am that would mean that I cannot speak for you or to you because, you know, I think women understandably and correctly are so conscious right now of all the layers of privilege and layers of marginalization that separate us. And so, but I think we're also getting ourselves super twisted where it's like, well, actually

like we're women and all of those things are important as context, but like we can't also now feel like we can't speak, talk to each other or that there are all these things that are separating us because we are effectively the same, if that makes sense. If you don't mind me asking, I'd be curious to know the sort of your relationship with authority throughout your life that may have influenced that from, you know, a young age to school. Are there any sort of significant experiences that you think might have impacted that? Yeah, I mean, I think that like all women, and I'm writing about this in the context of pride,

I'm writing about the seven deadly sins and the patriarchy, this idea. And I think that we're all, like I have very liberal parents who are, do come from a place of scarcity. So their frame has always been like, what do you need to do to be safe and secure? And like, that's particularly my mother. She grew up in a food insecure house and she's just plagued by this feeling of not enough. So that was very infectious as a child in terms of low grade anxiety about how can, how am I going to be secure? How am I going to make sure I'm safe?

How can I, like, I don't ever feel like I'm just flying high, like a trapeze artist without a harness, you know, like that's why I've always, one full-time job is not enough. I've got to, one full-time job is not enough. I've got to, that's that energy. But I think too, as a child was this, and I hope I'm not alone because I'm trying to write about sort of universal feelings that a lot of women would share, was this not, it was a disavowal of gifts or this admonishment to be humble and to not get a big head and to know your place, which I feel like is so insidious for women. This beyond Icarus, like you're going to fall out of the sky, but you will be shunned. You won't have any friends. You'll make other people feel bad. And then, you know, I get into envy in the book as well, because I think so many of us were

conditioned not to know what we want and to name it and to own it and to feel comfortable and to see each other when someone gets something that you want to see that as like, you know, the Lacey, that's why I think Lacey Phillips, like this idea of expanders is so culturally powerful because it's a reframe of, oh, wait, she's doing that. Like, that means I can do that. Like this, not necessarily even, oh, she's giving me permission, but she's showing me what's possible. And I think for me, for women, I'm in my early 40s,

and I feel like younger women are so much better at this. But seeing that as such a positive rather than what we were taught. And I think so much of this is subconscious. It's all subconscious, which is you see someone who's doing something that you want to do and your instinct is to swat her down

and to be like, I don't like her. I don't like that because it's triggering something. It's touching a dream that you have for yourself. Well, I think there's multiple layers to that because it's something that I think we all feel whether or not we want to admit it and to unpack it. Yes, there is the fact that it might be, you know,

a pressure point on a dream that we might have for ourselves that we're not yet living or not yet bringing to reality but also I think it's important to acknowledge the history of what it means to be a woman in that we weren't actually given much space so oh no us being put against each other and the female wound and there is so much texture to that that is like you say, because we don't even really realize because it might not have been in our lifetime, but it wasn't that long ago. It wasn't long ago. I mean, you go to the witch hunts, we're talking only centuries. And I think too, with the patriarchy, we take it as a given, right? Because what the patriarchy did was it insisted on our

women's inferiority and natural submissiveness, which we've taken as granted because it's the only system that we know. But patriarchy is not that old. It's old, but it's not nearly as old as we are. And it's, they think, started around 3000 BC at different points around the globe, and that it was a function of different tribes coming into contact with each other, resource scarcity, all of the things that you would imagine, and that women were first property. first property. So what would happen is that a tribe would conquer another tribe and enslave the women and children. The men would be killed, but the women could be subdued out of loyalty and a desire to protect children. And so this is how over time the submission of women came to be seen as natural. We were the blueprint for slavery. And that's how all systems of oppression and otherhood came to be. You know, we just sort of assume, oh, yes, men are stronger and women are weaker. And that's, you know, when they've started to exhume ancient graves of, you know, Neolithic and Paleolithic people and reapprise them using

newer technologies, they're like, oh, wait, half of these graves, you know, there was a discovery in the last couple of years of a trove of graves. And when they looked at, I think there were 26 warrior graves and they assumed that they were all men. And then they were like, oh, these femurs are slightly smaller. I think it was 10 out of the 26 graves were women. So this whole idea that men are, that we, A, were hunter gatherers because anthropologists are like, no, really you were gather, we were gatherer hunters. Hunting was rare. A lot of it was forage, scavenged. Most of the food was processed by women. But it was affiliative, partnership style, reverence for women as sort of creative life

sustainers. And so we don't know that. You know, it's not what we're taught. We're taught that it's history and that women didn't really figure outside of being help meats and mothers. But this isn't who we are. Well, we never question these things because when we're children, we're so malleable. I mean, we still aren't as humans, but we just pick up this stuff that we're told through school, through parents, through media, and we just think of it as assumed truth.

We're like, okay, well, that's what happened. And we assume we conflate culture and biology, which makes a ton of sense, obviously, but it's very difficult. It's nearly impossible to distinguish what's natural and what's cultural. You know, I was just interviewing this woman, Angela Saeni, who's a science journalist, and she's written really incredible books, two books about the science of human difference, one on race called superior and one on gender called inferior. And her point, you know, is that, and she's actually writing a book on patriarchy. I don't know when it will come out, but for example, like she talks about how when boys play with trucks, it increases their

spatial understanding. And then she was talking to like you have women who eat in a way to make ourselves as small as possible. That influences our biology. So it's really hard to say what's cultural. Yes, men are constructed differently, etc. Obviously, there are differences in the way that we're built. But would it be so different? Would it be so extreme as what we typically see today if women weren't engineering ourselves over time to be as small as possible to fit a very Western ideal of beauty? So culture is shaping our biology. Is that what you mean?

Yes, exactly. And then so many things that we take as biological, oh, women are innately more caring and nurturing and gentle. More emotional. Yeah, that's culture. That's how we are. And it might change our biology over time, but that's not really, it's impossible to really know. And even I think the way that gender is being blown up right now is so amazing and fascinating. And the way that we've cultured people to be like, this is who you are, doesn't resonate or sit. I mean, for some people, it really doesn't sit or resonate or feel accurate. For some people, it really doesn't sit or resonate or feel accurate. But I think for everyone, there's these moments of like, well, I don't really conform to what it is to be a woman all the time. Or, you know, that's sort of the wound that we're all running up against.

But to kind of go into that, is that not, are we missing the sort of the elements of the cultural thing and making it more biological to kind of go back and what you said we're not able to separate the two and be like I don't actually resonate with what it culturally means today to be a woman even if I might biologically be one and because they're so interwoven yes there's no one way to be a woman and the things that we've decided are feminine, I think are representative of a divine feminine energy. And I think the things that we've decided are masculine, and this is when they're balanced and healthy, are what we call divine masculine. But I think every person, regardless of assigned gender, regardless of sexuality, their needs or desires to be balanced

between their masculine and their feminine. And I think we each have parts of both and that there might be one that we prefer, but that's probably how we've been raised, right? Or cultured to be, or where we feel more comfortable. But like every woman wants to direct and make decisions and create containers and like be organized in the world. And isn't just like, I'm just in my feminine over here being sort of a creative, caring, nurturing being, right? Like we are both. And I think that until we each come into balance, we'll struggle. And when, once we start to understand those as energies, I think it'll be easier for people to be like, oh, right, like I'm a man, but I can be caring and loving and nurturing. And I can also be sort of in my masculine and tell people what to do. Well, I had a, I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but there's Mo Gowdat who wrote Soul for Happy. And he does, he's like one of the most brilliant minds

I've ever spoken to. And he's very, you know, he's super successful in business. It was the former chief business officer of like Google. And he said to me when I interviewed him, he was like, my sole mission at the moment is to be more feminine. And it kind of surprised me. I was like, such a manly man.

And he was like, I'm 57% feminine. And I'm trying to, and he's just, his work in AI as well kind of reflect. Yeah, it was great. And then he like was giving me. I love that he knows it down to the first moment. Yeah, because he's so masculine. masculine but he said that this voice just came to him it was like I've taken you as far as I can and he sort of sees it collectively and I kind of agree that we've been quite out of balance and we're kind of reshifting now and the pendulum will swing slightly the other way when that happens and it's causing a lot of confusion and a lot of conflict that's perhaps necessary or not who knows but equally I think it's important to speak and encourage men to open up. And, you know, the nature of podcasts and these kind of things in my audience is like 94% female. And I don't think that that's a coincidence, but I don't think that there's enough space given for

men to start having these conversations and to invite those aspects of themselves, because the patriarchy isn't just putting down women, it's actually putting down men. It's oppressive. I mean, you look at, you look at suicide affects four times as many men, wounded boys become wounding men. Like you look at sort of the ills that are happening on a social level. I also feel like, you know, we're starting to understand epigenetics and intergenerational trauma and all of these things to much greater degree. We're seeing a lot more spaces or a lot more conversation around men and vulnerability, which I think is great. I still think it's very, at least like publicly, very performed. like publicly very performed and it's a step in the right direction, if that makes sense. But I still feel like there aren't very many good examples of guys who are really embodied.

No, it's still sort of this, like, it almost feels like a cultural trope. Like I like Dax Shepard, but I feel like he's sort of the best example that we have of like a guy trying to be vulnerable, but he's, it's still so wrapped up in like masculinity and machismo and, you know, we're getting there. We're getting there. Baby steps. And to kind of take it back for a second, I'm curious how, you know, cause you're someone that's so accomplished and so well read and so intelligent. And yet you felt this, it sounds like you had this struggle with claiming your own authority. And sort of, I spoke about this or I've been writing about this recently in terms of our desire to subcontract our authority onto other people and tell us who to be how to show up in the world and there's there's different layers of that that I'm exploring I think one is responsibility it's like because

when we take ownership over our authority and autonomy we also have to take responsibility for how things pan out and there's something kind of scary in that whereas if we subcontract it somewhere else they're also responsible for it. And it's a tricky thing to navigate. And I think that that's where the kind of fear piece lies. But when it came to writing your book and kind of stepping into this space, and I really want to explore the themes because they sound so fascinating, but how does the authority piece tie in to the concepts of the book, if it does at all? Oh, I mean, it's the one of the through lines is how do we take this cultural programming and recognize it for that and then create something different and new for ourselves, sort of recreate ourselves whole. And part of that for women is like throwing off these binds around what it means to be

quote unquote, a good woman or to behave or to be obedient. And it's not, I'm not writing a book that's like, there's no such thing as morality. It's that our whole moral code has been given to us by an outside authority. And as you just said, so much of childhood, so much of being a woman is like, is this okay? Is this okay? Too much? Like comfortable? Like, am I overstepping? So the book is about, and hopefully it'll be out next year. I'm still revising it. It's been so, so intense, but it's about the patriarchy, but it's about this construct of the seven deadly sins and the way that they show up in our lives in a way that you do not have to be religious. You don't even really have to like be able to name them to be like, oh shit, you know, from lust, greed, gluttony, pride, like the way that they have inhibited women and not really men, you know, they've really constrained

us. Like we really conform to them. And that that's intentional. On the part of the patriarchy. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So yes, I think it's in all of our literature, the sins were first assigned to, they weren't actually in the Bible. They were created by this desert monk named Devagrius Ponticus in the fourth century, about the same time that the New Testament came together. And when some texts were deemed part of the canon and others were heretical, you know, so there was the orthodoxy of what's right. And then all the Gnostic gospels were destroyed, buried in the desert, found. So that's the gospel of Mary, gospel of Philip,

gospel of truth. There's like 50 or 60 gospels that we've recovered so far. Who knows how many were lost? But Vagrius Ponticus sort of came up with these thoughts, these demons that needed to be, and he created this spell book called Talking Back. And he was the first one to sort of, there were eight, it was the seven plus sadness. And then a couple of centuries later, and then a couple of centuries later, Pope Gregory I defined the cardinal vices, which is the list that we know now. There's like one swap.

It was vanity was one and sadness became sloth, et cetera. But then what he did was, and this is like so geeky, but I love this stuff, but Pope Gregory, he defined them and then he assigned them to Mary Magdalene. So twice she, in the New Testament, she is described as the one from whom Jesus cast out seven demons. And so he conflates her, Mary Magdalene, with the prostitute, the sinner who anoints Jesus's hair,

different woman. This was all cleared up, not until 1969, but he turned Mary Magdalene into a prostitute. And then he said that the seven demons were the seven vices. Then that became what was taught as like, these are the sins that you need to repent. So I don't think it's, I don't know if it was intentional, but I think it stuck. Because just to dive into Mary Magdalene a bit, I mean, I'm, my friends are looking into it. I have one friend in particular that has become completely fascinated. And my mom is very religious and I speak to her a bit about it, but Mary Magdalene was, I mean, the closest person to Jesus, but because she was a woman.

She was, you know, Pope Francis in 2016 named her the apostle to the apostles. But prior to that, she was potentially his partner. I think that like, I don't think that they were necessarily married, but I think that they were sexual partners. And I don't think that they were necessarily married, but I think that they were sexual partners. And I don't think Jesus was celibate. At no point does he say that, nor would he. He was a Jewish man. But I think that their relationship was like beyond the sexual or like platonic or mortal love.

She was his first disciple. And then when he resurrected in the tomb, she was the one who was there. That's in the New Testament. But her gospel, the gospel of Mary, which is stunning, is her recounting the teaching that he gave her post-resurrection. And in that teaching, he's like, there is no sin. The only thing that's sin is when you are adulterous to your nature and like, do not follow a lawmaker, follow yourself. Essentially it's, it's, it's a, it's a gospel about how it is all an interior process. So within, within that's the connection to the divine. And then she of course goes back to the other apostles and it is like, I saw him. This is the teaching.

Peter is like, why would he give this teaching to you? She's defended by the other apostles who are like, you know, he loves her more than everyone. Yeah, she was his first apostle. Instead, it became Peter, who wasn't the first person, but that was the whole tradition was this apostolic tradition that was Christ to Peter, to all of the popes, et cetera. It was this all male apostolic tradition. And so that's been lost, but essentially it's like the creation of Christianity isn't a lie, but it is not accurate. It's like, it took a right turn. It got bent right out of the gate. You know, and Jesus, who I think is amazing in my understanding of him, never wanted

a church. Like that wasn't the point. It wasn't, none of this was the point. It's so fascinating because I was brought up in quite a Christian framework. And I think a lot of people, religion isn't playing such a key part anymore because it's so associated with these rigid systems that aren't resonating with people anymore. But the teachings of Jesus, it's like you just said, that God is within, that it's all within and you don't need a church or these things to kind of live by. And that's, I feel we are sort of coming closer to that. Perhaps we're giving us like different languages for our spirituality that make it feel more accessible to people. But I love hearing about this because it's something that I just knew so little about. Yeah. And also I'm coming into my Jesus year, so.

Oh, congratulations. I mean, I'm a huge Jesus, Yeshua fan. I mean, I grew up like half Jew. I mean, I'm not, I wasn't raised in a religious household at all. And I wouldn't call myself religious. I would call myself spiritual. But he's amazing. And what he was saying is amazing.

But it's also important to remember, like he didn't write, you know, everything that we have is an oral tradition passed down, recorded by scribes, copied by scribes for centuries. We don't have original documents. Like it's all a little bit manufactured. And so I think the more people can go back to the original and to that inner knowing, the better off we would all be instead of letting a priest tell you how to be or letting that external authority determine your worth is something that we all, we all have to buck

and get over. Including you, it sounds like. Well, that's the thing. It's like, it's funny. I was just talking to my therapist and we were talking about like value and worth. And he was like, isn't this what your book is about? And I was like, yes.

And like my book was therapy and I still haven't overcome these things, but it was interesting to write it and be like, wow, these are all the ways in which I am not free. And it's a practice, you know, I think once we're aware, then we can really start to work on it. But for so many of these things, it's like, you just take them for granted. They're, they're in us. My biggest hope for my book is one, obviously that it finds an audience and that it resonates, but that it gets us to talk about these things collectively together, like our relationship to money, the way that we think about desire and this idea that we should

always be desirable and not desiring and like all of these hard lessons that we've grown up on and start to like process them collectively. That's my, that's my fantasy. Because I think if they're not spoken about, they become wrapped in shame. Yeah. And shame is just, you know, nothing can grow from that. but I love how you're you're piecing it together with all this history because it gives it so much more texture and understanding to be like oh it's not it's not just me that feels this way you know yeah go to just wanting to be a good girl let's say like being viewed as a good girl growing up and how that plays out in adult life and the

ways that we try like you said before keep ourselves small not want to be seen too much not want to make other people feel uncomfortable but we never question where that originally stemmed from we just yeah it just becomes like an internalized belief that we then carry through so in terms it's structured towards the seven deadly sins, is that like, is that the sort of architecture of the book or is that just a part of it? No, that's the architecture. And it's an interesting format, which I don't think is foreign, but I think that it's not, it's a little different. It's part memoir, because I didn't

feel like I could write about these things without also explaining how I relate to them. And some of them were much harder for me than others, which is interesting. And I think that everyone will be like, oh, gluttony is my big one. Or for me, like the lust chapter was incredibly hard to write. The wrath, the anger chapter was incredibly hard to write. The wrath, the anger chapter was incredibly hard to write. Do you mind expanding on why? Just because I think wrath, anger for me is something that I've never wanted to own. Like I will do anything.

I'm just a stuffer. So I don't ever want to feel like I'm not in control or that other people affect me. And so I feel like I have a lot of ancient, like just old, old, old anger that I've been trying to like dig and dig and dig. And I, and anger is so difficult because I think it shows up in our lives and we're like, am I really mad at my husband for like not doing the dishes? Like it's usually something so much deeper. And I think sort of in the researching it and coming to understand it in myself and others, it's really about boundaries and it's about unstated needs. me. It gets down to this, like not ever feeling like I was taught to know my needs and state them and assert them and feel like they should be granted. And then also how to distinguish them

from my wants. And so the difference between the wants and the needs. Yeah. So at the beginning of COVID around my departure from Goop, when I was like, how am I going to support myself and stuff like that? And I was like, I need to make a budget and actually really get a little bit more clear about what it is that I need financially. And then like, what would be extra? And I was talking to this woman, Carissa Schumacher, who's one of my like spiritual teachers. She actually channels Yeshua. She wrote a book that came out this fall that's incredible called The Freedom Transmissions, which is channeled. what are your needs and what are your wants? Because the divine is very good at serving needs. And this isn't about like, it's not supposed to be about scarcity, but she was like, but so often when I talk to people, it's like, what do you need? And no one has done the work. Nobody can articulate it. It's just this feeling of like, not enough, not enough, not enough. And so she

really pushed me to refine and be absolutely clear about what do I need and what do I want. It's funny, I actually don't have that many wants. It's hard for me. I'm still doing that. It's hard for me to grant myself anything that I feel like is. A luxury kind of thing. Yeah. I just, I have a lot of work left to do around that.

Undeservingness. Yes. But it was very calming to actually make a spreadsheet, a basic spreadsheet and be like, these are my needs. Like this is what I pay for my child's school and this is my mortgage and this is our food budget. And to actually do that work calmed me down considerably

and to really ask myself and excavate that and articulate it. And then to see where I have shame about things that I think are ridiculous to want, which aren't ridiculous. It's like, it's just, it's just the way that I think I was raised, you know? If there, cause if there is that sort of inbuilt belief system of not enoughness that I think we all carry in some kind of shape or form and it manifests itself in different ways. But I'm curious to know, and I'm kind of just speaking as I think here, but if that was something that was driving you or an underlying feeling, did that sort of spill out into aspects that it wasn't connected to? Because it sounds like in a way, if you're writing a book and you're as intelligent as you are, and yet you feel in some way like you have to explain who you're not in order to put it

out there, like you said before, do you think that that carries into other aspects of your life? Yeah, certainly. I think we all struggle with this. This is like the great human story, right? And I think that we get confused around some of these concepts. Like we're all special. Every person has a unique design and is supposed to bring something different. I think the way that we've been conditioned culturally is that, well, these people are much better because like they're up here and these people. And then, but you think about who's, and this is very clear with, or it started to become much more clear with COVID. Who's the most important people in your life? It's like the people who are farming, the people who are

teaching, the people who are nursing, right? Like we've had a very backwards way of thinking about these things. And then I think that for some women, specialness becomes like part of that hierarchy in a way that I don't want to participate in that at all. But I think that what we're being called to do and what I've been called to do too, is to own what own my gifts, knowing that they're different than your gifts, probably pretty similar to your gifts, but that we're all like doing our part. And none of us are the same. None of us are the same. And we're not supposed to be

force ranked either. Like we, our whole version of seeing the world is skewed based on this patriarchal system, but we're all special. We're all unique. None of us are equal. We're supposed to be like, there's a group equality that's important and there's like an equality of opportunity and access to resources and education, but we're also not, we're not a homogenous mass. Like we are each different. So I think part of what needs to happen is the owning of that. And then the refinement of that, the distillation of that and the expression of that. And I've been hiding, I think like a lot of people do from stepping into that and finding it a lot safer and easier to just, as you said, like what your tendency to do is like make other people's dreams come true or like run it through that person or run it through this person. Like it was giving the keys to your kingdom to someone else.

Yeah. Or thinking that they are with someone else. A friend of mine said recently in terms of giving advice, she said, you don't have to be at the top of your game to start. And I think that that's quite a thing as well, that you look outside and you see other people doing it and you think, well, I'm not going to be there yet, so I't want to begin and that's crazy but it's so true before I um before I let you go what is I'm very curious so the the process of the book how challenging has that been for you in terms of are you in the you're in the editing part now which I'm revising it yeah yeah. Yeah. The hardest sort of negotiation. Yeah. It's so funny because I've written so many books and they've all been so much easier.

This has been really hard, definitely the longest process. And because it's like when you're writing for someone else, there's really no ego. You're just taking their story or and shaping it and structuring it. And that's easy. It's much harder to like do that for yourself. The process of researching it and writing it. I mean, in some ways I've been researching this my whole life, but was so joyful and fun. So that in of itself was rewarding enough.

And I have to remind myself in the like restructuring and editing process of the joy of actually doing it. Because I think so many people also write a book with this, like, I'm going to change the world or most books don't work. Like most books don't really find a readership or they find a very small readership. Like books are, it's hard to write a book that connects or sells really well. And so you can't ever take on a book with that expectation or hope because you'll be disappointed. So it's like the process in of itself has to be the reason. So I certainly feel that way.

This part is essential. You know, working with my editor who I I love, has been so helpful. And but that's hard. It's really hard to like go back in and re-excavate your mind. It's like combing tangles, you know, just like things that make complete sense to me, where it's just like, I'm not following, you know, that over and over and over again, without killing you know, without killing sort of that, the propulsive energy that comes from anything that's written, but we're getting there. And so hopefully it'll, the supply chain and books is all screwed up too. So in a way, I'm sort of glad it's taken me a little bit longer. I was hoping to be done in October,

but it was also really good for me to break a deadline because I've never done that. And to actually allow divine standard time, DST, but just to be like, this will be done when it's done and it's ready when it's ready. Divine standard time. I love that. And also a thing for you, I guess, in exercising your own boundaries of like knowing that perhaps that wasn't the time. perhaps that wasn't the time. It wasn't the time, but it's hard. It's like being pregnant. It's that void feeling of like, oh, I need this out of me. Like take this from me, you know? Um, and then going to the doctor and it's like, nope, no, no, you're not dilated. So it's going to be a while. It's like that feeling over and over and over again. Well, it's going to, it's going to be amazing and I cannot wait. You've got definitely readership here. Yes, it'll make it there.

Absolutely. And it was such a joy to speak to you. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me. We've covered a lot of things that I think are really fascinating and our audience is going to love. So thank you.

Oh, thank you. As I expected, I really loved this conversation with Elise. It was such an honor to get to speak to her. And she's got, like I said at the beginning, such a fascinating and curious mind. And I loved what she talked about in this thing of authorizing ourselves allowing ourselves to be seen and using the seven deadly sins and the sort of history of christianity of religion and unpinning those things and realizing that actually a lot of what we believe isn't our belief system it's something that's been pushed onto us and when we go through our saturn return I really believe that there's a huge opportunity to just re-establish those things and often things will fall apart so we can kind of

really get our foundations in place there's a lot of pain in that unraveling because as things fall apart we grieve that in the process but it's about stepping into our own autonomy and our own authority. And that is not to come without difficulty. That's just the process, unfortunately. And it doesn't matter how accomplished you are. You know, I think we always believe that as individuals, we perhaps haven't done enough. We're not good enough yet. We haven't achieved that thing. Oh, I can grant myself permission to do this when I've achieved x y and z but actually after speaking to Elise I'm

like god if she feels that way then there's something fundamentally wrong here something far bigger at play and so I would encourage you all after listening to this if there is anything that you're thinking about doing that you're a little bit unsure about that perhaps you don't have the courage or conviction just yet just do it just take a leap of faith and do that thing and ask the question or ask for a raise or change job or whatever it might be because we have to challenge ourselves and it starts within it starts with each individual that's listening to this just doing something a little bit brave today you can find more about elise on her website at eliselewin.com that's spelt e-l-i-s-e-l-O-E-H-N-E-N. And if you want to hear more from Elise, she also has her own podcast

called Pulling the Thread. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you could share it with a friend and follow us on Apple. If you would like to leave us a review, that would also be very kind too. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Laura Gallop and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so much for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye. Thank you.