Saturn Returns with Caggie - 5.6 Tarot As A Tool To Be Seen with Litwitchure

Episode Date: May 23, 2022

This week, Caggie is joined by two fascinating individuals - Jen Cownie and Fiona Lensvelt - who perform together as Litwitchure. After embarking on successful careers in newspapers and advertising, the girls discovered tarot during their Saturn Return which ignited something in them. This episode covers the history of the tarot deck, tarot as a tool to be seen and understood, and as a device for connection and conversation. In this episode, they consider how our appetite for the esoteric is growing rapidly and why more and more of these ancient practices are having a renaissance in the ostensibly ‘tech-y' universe we live in today.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. I was working at a national newspaper and yeah, when I went into work and I shared what I was up to in the evenings, I was in no uncertain terms told that I was a very, very silly person. I was in no uncertain terms told that I was a very, very silly person. Today, I'm joined by two fascinating individuals, Jen Cownie and Fiona Lensveld, who together make Litwitcher. Jen and Fiona are both tarot readers and come at tarot from a very interesting perspective.

For them, it's less about predicting the future, but rather using tarot as a vehicle to have a conversation, to look within within to think more in depth about something you might have pushed to the back of your mind there's also a real theme in this season of saturn returns and tapping into our authentic selves sometimes what makes us tick can surprise us it's perhaps not what we had planned or what we expected for ourselves and i think that's what happened for Jen and Fiona. As they say in this episode, they're not from a long lineage of witches.

They didn't have tarot in their blood. They were just two friends who wanted to start a new hobby together. Perhaps a learning from this is that we should all be a bit more open to being taken by surprise. I was really keen to speak to Jen and Fiona because of the overlap of astrology and tarot as an esoteric practice. Much like they gravitated towards tarot during their Saturn return, I had a similar experience with astrology. What particularly struck me about this conversation was how people are turning to tarot even though we are considered the tech generation. Tarot at its core is a device for connection.

I love that Tarot can help identify our patterns and when we understand how the present has evolved out of the past, we can begin to predict the future. Before we get into any of this though, let's hear from our astrological guide, Nora. Divination. What do you think of when you think of divination? It's a much-used term used both in spirituality and occult practices, a term that stems from the Latin word divinare, which means to foresee, foretell, to prophesize. So divination finds its roots in divinare, and then the divine finds its roots in divinus, le divin,

which quite literally means godly, our ever god. How did we go, by the way, from words that end up having a more dogmatic attachment throughout history, a limited point of view, to divination, which essentially encompasses all that is occult and unseen, which in turn represents all that brings us closer to a more universal truth. Anyway, a very popular divination tool is the tarot, initially known as triomphi and later on as tarocci. The purpose of most divination tools, including the tarot, is to not necessarily predict our entire future, for we do have free will, but rather it helps us connect to our current energy, to what we're currently expressing and heading towards, if we so choose to. Astrology, another divination tool of sorts, helps us connect

to our astral body, our subtle body. And in doing so, we recognize our cosmic blueprint. We see that the outer world and astrological phenomena such as Saturn return reflects our inner world, which eventually helps connect with our truth, our inner desires, and all that we are naturally inclined to. So this is the best way to approach any kind of divination tool, such as Iaiching or Tara or tea leaf reading, as well as energetic languages such as astrology. A bit of stardust mixed with a good dose of self-accountability, if you will. We're meant to understand that even though events might seem as if they're happening to us, they're also happening for us,

Events might seem as if they're happening to us, they're also happening for us, and they have the purpose of aligning us with the path closer to our soul's natural self-expression. And then, believe it or not, the certain teacher that is Saturn helps us uncover exactly that. During its transits and Saturn's return, it helps us surrender to the undeniable truth that, be it world events or the arts of divination, don't spell out our fates but rather they highlight our inner divinus, the divine breath that we all possess, and the power and responsibility that come with that, so that we may act with not only authority in our lives but also embark on a path of complete self-sovereignty. Well Jen and Fiona welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you for having us. I'm so excited

to speak to you guys because I am fascinated by tarot and it's something I feel that there's like a lot of synergy obviously between like astrology and tarot and sometimes people use both practices at once so I'd love to hear from you guys first of all how you got into it to begin. Well we were talking about getting into tarot because obviously your podcast is Saturn Returns and that period of your life and we before we came on both went through our diaries and we're like what were we doing during our Saturn Returns it turns out we were learning to read the tarot and it was that period of life was when we kind of got into it in our late 20s probably for all of the reasons that many people would have at that stage in their adulthood where everything was quite chaotic and there were some quite sort of like

big changes. Oh my God. We were thinking about it. And if you had like a bingo card of things that might happen during your Saturn returns, I think between us and also individually, probably we hit almost all of them at least once but sometimes twice sometimes we went around the bazaars and we got on there twice we absolutely did and there was this period in our late 20s and we had both I think had that phase probably in our teens where you get a bit witchy and you're like oh I'm gonna play with cards but you don't really know what you're doing and it's the little guidebook in the deck which just says some strange gnomic things that doesn't that doesn't really mean very much and I think at that stage in our

late 20s when we decided to learn more about tarot properly you know we've known each other since we were 18 18 which it doesn't seem that young to know each other but we're both in our mid that we're both 35 now so it's quite a long time it's a long time yeah yes we'd always sort of had that lives that walked in step with one another we've been doing the same things and having quite similar experiences and then at that period in our late 20s it started to diverge a bit like we started to go on quite different journeys um like Fiona is a mother now I'm absolutely not like we've clearly been some quite a bright section of a path there and we sort of wanted I guess a hobby to do together but also something that would help us to make sense of what was going on and the narratives and and the sort of the changes our lives were going through and

yeah I guess some other people might be like oh what could we do together we could perhaps start a book group or do netball and we thought no let's do tarot but did you have any because you said you mentioned the sort of the teen period which I think a lot of people will relate to myself when you're sort of doing like Luigi Ward and kind of playing around and all that kind of thing the craft was like the coolest film and you just want to be one of those girls and like you said sometimes like you don't actually know what you're doing and I'm kind of a believer looking back like sometimes you're dabbling in things that are can be quite dark and you're not really you don't really know what you're doing or what you're

calling in so I've personally myself when I went through that phase I actively kind of separated myself from it because it felt a little bit dark sometimes and then I almost like shut down that side of myself as I was growing up and then moved into a different sort of social circle and things like that and then have perhaps like you guys reconnected with that aspect of myself more during my Saturn return and I think that there is just a general calling to the collective to lean into these practices a little bit more and so it's such an exciting space but did you have let's say in your 20s were you practicing these kind of things or was it like a total pivot pivot I think one of the we were really curious about the tarot but if you looked at our lives there weren't any massive indicators that

we were necessarily like witchy people I guess yeah like you like the moon I suppose I was always quite like oh it's the full moon tonight let's go that feels interesting I'm gonna stare at it but nothing there's never been any faith-based practice any kind of witchcraft I mean I'm sorry to be disappointing but like we had office jobs I was gonna say what were you doing work while I mean still do both have office jobs but yeah it was sort of same as you in my teens sort of dabbled in it and was like oh this is exciting but it felt a bit naughty maybe a bit transgressive and definitely we both come from we have a very weirdly we met at 18 we have very similar backgrounds in that we're both um the children of military families and of like multi-generational military families.

So you can imagine that we're on neither side. We don't come from, you know, many generations of witches. Lineages of, yeah, witchcraft. And it wasn't like you were at home and your mothers were like making potions and all that. I mean, I wish, but my mum is still. I wish too. I mean, I wish, but my mum is still- I wish too. She's kind of like, where did this come from? Because we fly and fix aeroplanes and you like tarot cards.

And she's, I mean, they're very supportive in fairness on all sides. But I look back and it's so hard to tell because obviously your memory is imperfect. But I feel as though there had been this sense. And for me, I'm very, I don't know, I'm very into nature. I love all the names of trees and birds.

And that's always been part of my childhood and my adolescence and growing up. I for me that sense of connection to the seasons and to sort of the natural rhythms of things became more and more more and more conscious and to going back into tarot felt a little bit like going actually I have had this sort of latent sense of self and and I don't know how to describe it so I don't want to say like witchiness but I feel like that it's not quite that it's just well it kind of feels like it I mean I don't want to sort of project my own experience but it's like these things are testing the boundary and especially if you've been brought up in a very different kind of environment but equally I think it's

about coming home to something because it is such an ancient thing and of course like today with a lot of people that you speak to it gets this reputation it's like a woo-woo sort of thing and new agey but actually it's not and it's the same with astrology so do you find that your people kind of pigeonhole you when you say that you're into this stuff and that this is what you're doing or people are like oh here we go I mean like when when we started reading the tarot so we basically we signed up together to a tarot reading course totally legit tarot reading course at an occult bookshop in London so we were taking this like very very very seriously we wanted to go back to the books and like learn the cards their true meanings all of these sorts of things Jen you were working in

advertising you continue to work in advertising I was working at a national newspaper and yeah when I went into work and I shared what I was up to in the evenings I was in no uncertain terms told that I was a very very silly person and that's absolutely fine because um I think I I felt a bit ashamed of it at the time but um I mean yeah I think I kind of was more just like wear my strangeness proudly on my sleeve at the time that I was learning it. But then I changed jobs maybe, maybe like a year after we started doing Litwitcher. And I didn't tell my new job because I was in a more senior position and I was kind of heading up, like leading on an account. I work in advertising and I didn't tell anyone for a couple of months because I was sort of like,

oh, I don't know how it's going to go down if it's trash there is also a tarot reader and yeah I know it came to light because there was an article that was published about us which had quite a large double page photo of us in a magazine and it kind of came out on the Sunday and on the Monday I walked into the office and the CFO from across this massive open plan thing just held it in the air and went Jen Cownie and I was like yeah that yeah I'm not mentioned and there is a thing you do you kind of worry about it I think well I used to I don't so much now but when I first started doing it I was kind of like I had to go like yeah no I read tarot but don't jump to conclusions who I am or what I am or what I believe or what I don't believe and now I think after several years

of doing it and doing it professionally as well we both I sort of know the look I say to someone oh yeah I read tarot and I either get someone going oh that's interesting or you get the kind of like she said what stay away witch but that was the fascinating thing about doing this course because I thought we'd be signing up to this course where the room would be full of people who were kind of deeply embedded in like the spirituality world like they would be very well versed in all matters of like astrology crystals all these sorts of things and actually a lot of the people who were on this course with us were exactly like us they were there were lawyers on the course there was like an accountant there was a teacher there was someone else who worked

in publishing like these were people who didn't have any background they weren't like the seventh daughter of the seventh daughter anything like that like they just felt drawn to it and they were curious and I think everyone in that room kind of understood that there was something for them in tarot but it might not be the same thing like the tarot is a wonderful tool some people use it as a tool for channeling their psychic intuition and there are other people who like us we we tend to use it more as a way of kind of telling universal stories about the experiences that we go through so in that sense we use it in quite a secular way but there's room in tarot for everyone that was that was kind of great and a massive surprise. Yeah, absolutely.

So on that, would you be able to explain, just in case people aren't familiar with it, essentially what tarot is and to kind of debunk some of the myths or the associations that come with tarot readers or the tarot card? Yes, absolutely. I guess sort of the potted history of tarot is it did start life as a card game. And if you actually look at a deck, I think most people when they think of tarot think of a few specific cards uh things like death is one that always comes up the hanged man generally the ones that have got

some of the more questionable imagery are the lovers the lovers yeah but the lovers is actually a bit like the iconography is of the garden of eden so it is also a card that's got quite a freighted sort of visual symbolism. People know those cards, but they don't really know the entire deck. And the tarot deck is 78 cards in a standard deck. And it's got four suits, like a playing card deck. So they run ace to 10.

And then you've got a page, a knight, a queen, and a king. There are four of those. So the wands, the pentacles, the swords, and the cups. And then you've got the 22 trump cards, which are the major arcana. And those are the ones most people would recognize. And originally it was it just a game that people played i've got no idea how you played this game i'll be absolutely honest with you but i did do an event last year where it was the person recording the event was i think he was french and he at the end of it he was like

this is so fascinating i've never seen the cards used this way for reading and i said what are you using for and he was like just playing games so clearly I think maybe in France it's still used for that but over time and I think there's it's sort of probably lost in the midst of time exactly how it began to be used more for divination so the cards are very beautifully illustrated in sort of the older decks actually it's only the trumps that have got significant illustration but the the suit cards also have a bit of fun to them and people began to sort of ascribe meaning to them based on I think numerology sometimes astrology and it's sort of a kind of almost a collective oral tradition I think Fiona you might have something more knowledgeable there to add on terms of the early days before

pre pre-20th century which is where tarot really kind of came into its own I think on a more maths level yeah so it's really interesting because when you look back at how tarot cards have been used over like certainly over like the last 100 years it's especially during difficult times that they seem to have become popular again so we see a resurgence of interest at the start of the 20th century um there's another resurgence of interest in like the 70s. And I think it's fascinating that there's this sort of resurgence now. I think it's all about just trying to understand the narratives that are, you know, I think, especially over the last couple of years, while we've been in lockdown and isolation, we've been confronting problems in our lives. And they've been so deeply isolating, we've not really had anyone to kind of talk to

about them. And I think when we turn to the tarot, it teaches us that a lot of the struggles that we face aren't just ours alone. They're shared from generations before, you know, these cards are ancient. The problems that we're being shown that are so deeply relatable have been experienced by our parents, our grandparents, by other people, that there are these sort of like deeply universal narratives in them. Yeah. I mean, the cards themselves have been around since the earliest decks of 15th century there may be earlier still but you know paper doesn't last that well but the versions you see now uh were primarily sort of codified in the early 20th century by a very jazzily named um order called the hermetic order of the golden dawn um quite a quite a big title and they sort of set down the meanings or the basis of the meanings that most people would interpret or use to interpret tarot today but it's very much a

practice that is drawn over a collective set of voices over years over generations over centuries and so what i quite like about it is there isn't a sense of authorship there isn't a thing of this person invented the tarot and they set down all the meanings and for 600 years we've been reading it it's something that has always been passed down has kind of evolved over time has changed and a lot of the i think misconceptions and concerns about it relate to it either being slightly satanic panic stuff of it being something dark and and scary and it's gonna tell you horrible things it's gonna predict i mean people think it could predict death i think is always the biggest worry we get when you have someone coming new to a territory I think that's not what you can do with these cards it's

much more of a tool for reflection and conversation and almost mindfulness I think than it is for staying and next week this is what's going to happen to you it's going to be bad yeah well there's a couple of things that you mentioned that I kind of wanted to to touch on one I find it really fascinating that it's having this kind of moment again in a renaissance. And you mentioned how that kind of came about in the 70s. If we were to speculate, why do you think, I mean, there's some obvious reasons, but why do you think it's happening now? Obviously, it's like impacted by the pandemic and the uncertainty. But we can definitely see this polarity between, you know, we've evolved on.

And I remember thinking, God, we're going to be that generation that we're just all about tech. And it's like quite masculine and linear and like building things and very material. And I said, that's so boring. But then on the other side, we're kind of having this moment where loads of people are leaning into these very old practices astrology tarot whatever it might be people are going to see healers so what do you think that is about i'm sure you guys have kind of given it a lot of thought i just think that you know we're all starving for connection and communication i mean i used to be an interviewer at the newspaper and one of the things that i was always really surprised by was people do desperately want to tell their story and they desperately want to be understood and they want to tell their story. They want to be seen and heard. Exactly. And the tarot is simply another way. It's quite a creative way to do that. I really liked what you said about the world of tech and this sort of very digitized universe that we seem to be moving into.

tech and this sort of very digitized universe that we seem to be moving into and I do think that these practices that are having a kind of another renaissance it is a bit of a backlash to that like I definitely feel like it's people going okay I don't want to live in the metaverse personally I've no interest in that I'd like to see things and touch things and hold things and you know whether it's crystal practice or tarot or candles or ritual those are all very physical experiences whether they sort of, they use the senses, they allow you to reconnect like bodily with the world. And it's very easy for us to end up wandering around like sort of brains.

I feel it's quite reflective of like the masculine and the feminine, which of course we all possess both. And I think that we've just kind of, the masculine has taken us very far and has kind of dominated. And then we're kind of experienced as, okay, this, I I don't when people say like the future is female I think the future is feminine and it means that we all need to kind of lean into those aspects of ourselves both men and women completely and the sense of the breaking of old structures that's been such a big part of the last century and this move away from hierarchy and you know organized religion is

far less prevalent particularly in western Europe and the sense away from hierarchy and you know organized religion is is far less prevalent particularly in western europe and these sense of structures and and things you're supposed to do have begun to fall away and as you know with the rise of feminism women particularly reclaiming and going who do i want to be what do i want to be it's it's more it's very organic i think that kind of brings me perfectly onto my next thought and question, which is, you know, I was brought up in a very Christian framework. My mom is Christian. I went to church most Sundays. And I would say I still have my own sort of personal relationship with God, but I don't prescribe to the same like things that my mom does necessarily. And I think like you just said, religion isn't playing such a key part in the way that it used to but human beings just have

that need for for something outside of themselves to believe in and I believe that that's why astrology and these practices are kind of having their moment because as human beings for whatever reason call it like our soul's purpose we need to kind of tap into that but I definitely think that the influence of being brought up in that Christian framework meant that I was particularly tarot I'd say was viewed as like you know devil's work so sometimes when I tell my mom like I'm having it doing a tarot read she's like devil's work and so that's something so obviously you guys would have experienced that and I also do believe from my own experience when I was younger that if it is in the wrong hands and there are a

lot of people because it's a completely unregulated industry this whole space so what do you think about that I think that's a really interesting one because I think first of all the Christian thing is so interesting particularly because if you actually look at a deck there's so much Christian iconography in the tarot. It's built a lot out of the Christian and Judeo-Christian traditions. And lots of the stories that are in the deck, if you kind of get into the symbolism, are in there. And so there is always something quite interesting to me that particularly in, particularly maybe more evangelical Christians might be quite anti the tarot, even though it's at some point in the history of deep connection into that faith. But it's that point of misuse. I think when I started reading, when

we first started properly doing it, I went in a little bit kind of nervously, like, okay, am I dabbling in something dark? And then I went through this phase where I thought, no, no, this is completely fine. There's nothing weird about the tarot. There's nothing to be afraid of. There's nothing at all. It can't be misused. and having been doing this for several years now I definitely have heard usually stories it would usually be a friend or someone I've met who will tell me about a tarot reading they've had and they'll explain what someone said to them and I'll just think that is appalling I can't believe someone said that to you when you were in a vulnerable position you were opening yourself to them and I don't think

I mean I personally don't believe there are many people out there who are maliciously trying to go around and make other people's lives difficult but I think there is a real danger in some cases with unethical practice of the tarot and people seeing it as a chance to I guess almost like show off how magical they are yeah we see it time and time again with people that have perhaps gifts and then something happens I don't know whether the ego gets a hold of the wheel and they get this sort of like messiah complex and you see it happening on like different levels but I definitely have experienced people that's like I've got the gift let me let me tell you what's going to happen to you because I've got the gift. And then like, it's just not coming from the right place anymore.

Completely. And I think that's something that in the book that we've written, we write about quite a bit at the beginning that you have to realise that this is not about you. When you're giving a tarot reading, it's about the person who's being read for. And that person might be you. You might be reading for yourself, in which case, obviously, you are both the reader and the querent. but if you are giving a reading to someone else your job is to hold space for them your job is to listen to be really careful with them and and to see that if something difficult or upsetting is coming up for them that you you give them the care and the compassion that they deserve in that moment rather than being like I knew it I knew it and and you know I say I I've not myself ever had a reading that went south that way in the sense of someone reading for me but I have heard I have heard of it happening and I am aware of it and certainly I do always say and we always say to anyone who's

starting out like you have to be a human being when you're reading like this is it is better to be kind and to stop a reading if someone is struggling um and just to for a moment say are you all right do you need a hug like I've had that situation with complete strangers before and you just think this person is vulnerable right now sometimes people who come for readings are people who are going through really difficult parts of their lives and so totally this is the thing it's like the I'm sure the majority of people, myself included, go to these practices, not when they feel like everything. The times when I'm doing tarot the most, I tell you, the times when I'm like in crisis mode. When I went through my guilty pleasure, and I don't know whether it's like absolute rubbish, but it really helped in a weird way. There was like, there's YouTube people that do general things for star

signs and obviously there's a lot that's just like rubbish but I found two in particular that just like I would go to and I would go to them like a lot I would have a bath I would light my incense stuff and I would just listen and it just it was when everything just felt so tumultuous and everything had been turned upside down and it gave me this weird kind of grounding and made me feel you know like we just said seen but also I think the the astrology piece made it feel like also it was part of a collective like it wasn't just me that might be navigating these themes and that made me feel a bit a bit less alone I guess but to the piece about people coming when they are at their most vulnerable. And I've seen this, I wouldn't say I've experienced it myself, because I've been doing it on YouTube,

so they're not actually speaking directly to me. But to people, to friends I have that then become almost dependent. And then they're like, well, I saw Tyreiden, they said that I'm going to meet, you know, my future partner in like three years time. So I'm just going to wait. And I'm like, I don't know if that's a good idea. And kind of conducting, you know, pupp future partner in like three years time. So I'm just going to wait. And I'm like, I don't know if that's a good idea and kind of conducting, you know, puppeteering their life and people giving away their free will in those moments. What are your thoughts on that? Absolutely. That for me is, to be honest, it's the worst use of tarot. And I feel like we have to be careful because tarot is a very broad community and different people use it in different ways but uh when I when we started out I'm I'm in therapy I've been in therapy for eight years I find talking therapy to be an incredibly important

part of my mental health and my life and I I'm always very open about it and I spoke to my therapist when I started to use tarot more and she was at first I think genuinely very concerned because she was like sorry what you're about to say no what are you doing and I was like no no not like that she was like I don't want you to start letting a card tell you how you live your life you've got to be authentic you've got to be yourself I'm trying to help you find who you are and be able to speak with your own voice and I actually found those conversations so useful as we began to do this because I think instinctively both Fiona and I when we were learning really rejected any sense of this card is going to tell you what you must do and this

card is going to tell you what will happen and there's nothing you can do about it and I think we found that whenever we heard anyone talking about reading like that we just went oh we've got I've got enough things like magazines adverts are some of which I'm responsible for yeah the both of you newspapers and advertising we've got enough people telling us what to do and it's but we felt like for me and I can say for me for us I don't speak for both of us but I like the way the cards can be empowering because they can say to you this is a story how does this story what does it mean to you and and do you want this story for yourself like you can choose to say no you can look at it and go is that is that the direction

I'm going in do I want to go in that direction I think the cards ask you a question but they don't give you a requirement and yeah I just I feel very powerfully that if someone comes to me and says right but am I should I move jobs or should I leave my partner I'll be like well which I'm guessing they do all the time sometimes people do do that or say well we can we can look at the tarot we can look at what aren't you seeing what might you need to think more about what is something here and use it more to discuss and to think about rather than going, pulling a card and saying, yeah, it's the emperor. And that means, done here.

Do you see stuff like that and then make an ethical decision not to say, or is it that the cards actually can't tell you? There is literally no card in the deck that will tell you what you have to do. So like, there are cards that look very loaded, like you might be having a bad day and you start telling some cards

and you're like, oh, death, great. Yeah, lovely. Ten of swords. Yep, wanted to see him. And you're just like, oh my God, these cards are just telling me bad, bad things. But they have no one message. The joy of tarot is that it's a set of symbols,

not a signpost. Carl Jung, there's a very good quote that I think explains tarot and fortune telling, which is when we understand how the present has evolved out of the past, we can begin to predict the future. So that isn't fortune telling, that's kind of pattern recognition and behavior. Because I had a, and I hope you won't mind me sharing this, but my boyfriend, who's quite traditional in a lot of ways in terms of his work and stuff,

had a reading. And the tarot reader told him a lot of stuff that was incredibly accurate about me. And she also went on to say, and this was a while back now, and I guess at the time we were like we were dating so it's quite early on in our relationship and he he she said to him the girl that you're dating he she described me like perfectly and obviously didn't know me and then also said she was like she's not taking

covid that seriously and she needs to watch out because she's about to get it in fact I think you both are and then said that we were about to go on holiday together, which at the time was like, not something we were thinking about and not true and felt like way too early to be doing that kind of stuff. And then anyway, a couple of weeks later, my boyfriend got COVID. He didn't realize then gave it to me I then I'd never had it before he'd had it before and I got really really ill and I was supposed to go on a yoga retreat to Ibiza and I ended up not being able to go because I was testing positive for COVID and I couldn't and he felt so bad and he'd taken some time off and was going to go away himself like separately he then was like

well how about I take you away because I've kind of ruined your thing so and then we ended up going on a date together and then I remember we were looking back we were like that's kind of weird because it was like the Covid that made us end up going away together that then also like solidified the relationship and just it was one of those moments was like I could never predicted any of that happening and it wasn't like we were thinking about the tarot session being like oh when's this gonna happen we kind of just like dismissed it because I was like I don't know that sounds kind of weird and very specific but I'm like how the fuck did you know that was gonna happen I mean I mean that's the amazing thing about the tarot sometimes I think because because obviously I'd say most of the time that I read the tarot I don't look at it and expect that

I'll see a card and that will predict what will happen but there have been some very uncanny experiences where I've pulled cards and the next day something's gone on and I've gone like oh maybe I'm more psychic than I thought um but I think one of the things that's quite I think quite nice about it and certainly in the way that we try and speak about tarot to people who are new to it is people go but does it work is it real like is it magic is it you know are you tapping into something that you're sort of seeing the future are you a clairvoyant and I always say like well I don't really know and I'm kind of okay with not knowing sometimes I think it's it's it's you know it's a wonderful like Rorschach test where you see a card and it brings something up for you and sometimes

I think we all as human beings have this intuitive potential for some people it's perhaps more acute and more obvious than others like I have occasional flashes of insight normally where I'll be like I've got a feeling I don't have to do that project for tomorrow because something my waters tell me the meeting's going to move which is not a very handy intuitive instinct like compared to some people's I'm not clicking lottery numbers I think some people are much more like this person who read for you clearly more tapped into that sort of sense of what might happen but but I kind of like how do you tap into that though because I feel like I have these weird things where I'll put like I'll often have dreams about stuff like premonition dreams but then nothing they're really insignificant like boring things I'm like that's not a gift that's a lame

gift like come on let's have something a bit more and predict something a bit more exciting like world events but it's just really like minor things one of the exercises that we did when we were learning the tarot and I think it's really really valuable it's essentially about like tuning into the symbols and just the world around you we also I mean at the start of learning the tarot I certainly did this but keeping a diary of you know the readings that you're doing what are you thinking when that card comes up it doesn't matter what the strict meaning of the card might be but how are you responding to it like why is that different today than it was last week so I think

in terms of like I mean I think for both of us we want to be in touch with our with our intuition what's that gut feeling we sometimes get in certain situations or anything like that and I think it begins by just making those connections again ones that we often you know in busy modern life when you're on your phone you're running about you tend to switch off yeah but I just it's weird isn't it because part of me wants to be like intuition is a muscle that you can build but I have no idea what the training program is for and I think sometimes I just I think it comes and goes doesn't it I wish there were an answer because I think it'd be really useful but as I say for me it's normally random things like I'll meet I met a friend for dinner last year who had a new girlfriend and he was being very coy about who it was and like who they were and as I was going home

on the overground I looked at the moon and her name just came to me. I texted him, I was like, are you dating this person? And he said, yes, I am. How did you know? And I was like, oh, the moon told me. The moon told me, I love that. And he actually went, I was like, I've got no idea. It just came to me and I thought I'd ask. But I've not, you know, you just, I think sometimes,

you know, you see more than you realize, you remember more than you know that you do. There are probably tiny cues, but maybe it's just, you know, the I think sometimes you know you see more than you realize you remember more than you know that you do there are probably tiny cues but maybe it's just you know the universe aligns one day and the moon just whispers that's the name of your past new girlfriend I love because I think we're always looking for the sort of logical linear thought pattern and actually sometimes things just come and I like you said I think we all have that ability but it's just sometimes knowing how to tap into it and strengthen it like you said I think we all have that ability but it's just sometimes knowing how to tap into it and strengthen it which I also do think by these practices and the lifestyle that you lead enables that more completely I think tarot is a lovely way of doing it and certainly

I don't I don't want to sound too much like I'm kind of like an Instagram influencer but I feel like tarot has allowed me to tap more into what I really feel and my authentic self and the stuff that's going on in my life. And it has been, it is a very grounding practice and it's one that encourages awareness and encourages you to look and to look for those like little symbols and those little points and those things you might not normally notice because you're too busy rushing around and trying to get the tube and sort of like do your six powerpoint decks and then go out for dinner and blah blah blah blah busy busy busy they sort of let you stop and go just pause like what's what's going on for you what's going on in the world but what's going on within you so yeah which actually is such a rare

thing for people to do because we just you know we numb out what we watch tv we're on our phones but for people that want to actually start practicing tarot and like learning about it how sort of methodical is it and how much homework did you have to do before you can actually start practicing yeah I wish the answer was oh you just have a quick look at the cards and it's fine it is it is a bit of a process and you do have to learn it but one thing that I was pleasantly surprised by when we were learning because I went in and I've got a pretty good memory you know read a lot of books quite good at remembering things but I thought 78 cards each of which has a like a clear

set of meanings and shadow meanings and influences that's going to be quite the quite the test but actually the deck is very structured so you don necessarily realize it until you start to read it. But the way the suits work, the numbering of the cards, the positions each of them holds in the deck actually creates quite a lot of, I mean, it's a bit like a grid system. I think I refer to it as that in the book at some point. I'm like, Tara, it's like a grid system, which is deeply like non-romantic way of referring to it. But if you know the number and they know the suit of the miners, that gives you an idea of what they mean.

And the major arcana run in a linear pattern so it isn't actually as arduous as it might look from the outside yeah but also it looks it because also obviously like i'm you know saturn in terms of astrology but i just don't have the mind to grasp it like nora does or people that I know I just like because it becomes so abstract but also very like mathematical almost I'm like this is just so much I bet you do though I'm sure I think I feel like I feel like anyone could learn it it's just a question of finding the way into it that works for you and I mean you do have to know I said that actually recently I gave someone a chat with their first tarot deck for their 30th birthday and I saw her a few days later and she told me about a reading she'd done and she told me some cards that came up and I was like oh my god it was you know the

queen of swords I was like what a great card for you blah blah blah and she said Jen do you know what all of the cards mean I said yes of course I do I'm a tarot reader it is one of those things if you just do it bit by bit. And that was how we learned. We sort of broke them down the deck into each of the suits and then the mages. And we just learned each of them in turn. And over time, they stopped being these kind of slightly obscure cards with like little people dancing around them. They become like familiar friends.

You know, I just, the second someone says a card or they describe a visual card to me, someone said, you know, the one with the guy and he's got, he's got some swords and some others. And I was like the seven swords. And they were like, yeah, probably that one. You just, they become so completely different to one another that even within a couple of months of reading relatively regularly, like a couple of times a week, looking at the deck, you can learn them. So, but it is, I think it is helpful also.

And we're not just saying that because we've written a book about tarot but we wrote it for a reason you can't really learn them from just like getting the cards and then the little thing that's the insert because that insert has just got five words next to each one and it's pretty pointless so you like it is useful to whether you go online you use youtube use free resources use a book or do what we did and really commit and go to an occult bookshop and do a two-month tarot course how often were you actually so it's two months but how often did you have to go it was once a week for like three hours a week and then we were doing with homework with daily homework so we were really committing yeah we had a massive massive folder each of us by the end of

it yeah our tarot diary like all of our worksheets people also um you know we talked about how it can whether it can be sort of predicting the future and things like that because obviously people say oh it's just people reading your body language or stuff like that but a lot of communication is non-verbal so to the piece around that how important is that in terms of for the tarot reader and what do you call it the quarr, the person who's asking the person who seeks. So querent. Querent, yeah. I think it's really important.

I know we write about it in the book because it is something that people go, oh, well, tarot readers are just picking up on your subtle non-verbal cues. And it's like, well, they really should be because I'm not a robot. If I'm sitting opposite someone and they're looking a little bit sad or they're looking a bit worried or unhappy, I need to be tapped into that.

I need to be thinking, what's this, what's going on for this person? And, you know, I think I think we've talked about this as well, but there are very few places in life where people really actively listen to you and just let you tell your story and and let you share your experience and just give you their full attention and I think a tarot reading done well is that space and there's a real magic and I think probably a little bit like a therapeutic space but with the absolute caveat that tarot readers are not therapists and are no replacement for them but a similar thing of being able to sit and just almost unburden yourself to someone whether they might be a stranger it's it is important. And just almost unburden yourself to someone, whether they might be a stranger. It is important.

I love that. Well, guys, I think that's everything. This has been so fascinating. Honestly, I cannot wait. I'm going to try and start learning it. I'll let you know how I go. Next time I'll be like. Yeah, you can do a reading for us. We can do a reading for you.

Honestly, give it a try. I think you'll find it easier than you think go for it well you definitely inspired me to do so so thank you so much for thank you so much for coming on the show I absolutely loved it thank you so much for having us we've loved it it's so great to chat to you and have a lovely rest of your day thank you I love what Jen and Fiona said about tarot, allowing them to tap into their authentic selves, and that being a tarot reader is all about holding space for the querent. If you want to find out more about Litwitcher on their Instagram,

you can find them at Litwitcher, and their book Worldcard is out now. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. This episode was produced by Laura Gallop and the executive producer was Kate Taylor. Thank you for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye. Thank you.