Saturn Returns with Caggie - 6.5 Creating Love with Mark Groves

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Human Connection Specialist, podcast host and Create The Love founder Mark Groves, joined Caggie in Season 3 of Saturn Returns. This episode struck a chord with many of you, and so we have brought him back to share more of his wisdom!  The previous episode covered Love Languages and the anxious attachment dance and Caggie explains how this was a pivotal conversation in finding the partner she has now.  Mark also explains why we pursue unavailable people, how to handle rejection, the roles we play out in relationships, how we can show up more fully and in true Saturnian form, how to take more responsibility for ourselves and our patterns. Ultimately, how the level of honesty and intimacy we can reach in partnership is a direct reflection of the honesty and intimacy we can reach in ourselves.  If you’d like to listen to the first episode with Mark titled ‘Relationships and Love Languages,’ head back to season 3, episode 7.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Whenever I'm in a relationship with someone who's unavailable I am not having to actually meet and present all of myself you know it appears as though I'm avoiding rejection but I'm actually living existing in it in this very special episode of Saturn Returns I am reunited with one of my favorite guests from a previous season and that is the one and only Mark Groves. As some of you will remember, back in season three, Mark joined me as we discussed relationships and love languages and the avoidant anxious attachment dance. I'm going to share a moment with you from this previous episode, as not only was it an incredibly popular one, but it was also very raw and personal one for me.

We talked about life growing up and particularly talked about life when I was 14. Now, I was always a very sensitive and I guess quite shy when I was growing up. And I internalized a lot of this as, you know, being too emotional, too sensitive. And the conversation I had with Mark kind of drew parallels between these things I internalized at 14 and how I showed up in relationship and how I wasn't able to ask for what I truly needed. Now, I'm mentioning this

because I want to encourage you guys to do the same because I think when we go through our Saturn square at 14 we can internalize a lot of things about ourselves and about the world that we think aren't worthy or aren't acceptable and this then plays out in adult life. Mark was always a dream guest of mine and so when I had this first conversation with him I was a little embarrassed because I actually got very emotional on the episode and he was incredible he held space for me in the most amazing way and guided me through stuff that I just wouldn't have seen on my own and it was such a healing experience for me and I would say it was

really formative in how my life has played out since. At the time of the recording, a relationship I was in had ended a couple of days before, and I hadn't really processed the whole thing. But this conversation with Mark just really allowed me to understand the sort of nuances of why certain people work together and others don't, and how it's not often about being too good for, or there's something wrong with you. It's just we all operate and need very, very different things. The real interesting thing is I find we're uncomfortable with people being in emotions we don't know how to sit in. So like I know how to sit in grief. So your grief doesn't scare me. I actually think it's incredibly enriching. I think that I know that in grief

and loss is actually so much wisdom and so much can be gardened and cultured from it. And I know that in your experience, you're going to do that. And so I think what's interesting is to get to the place where his boundary and his wound can exist and so can yours. pull away and observe your response to his pull away. And immediately you notice it's like, what's wrong with me that I can't hear his boundary? As opposed to like, it's a normal human experience to want to hug and not get the hug, which is very similar to 13 year old you who just wants someone to know that you're not okay with what's happening.

If you want to hear this full episode, I highly suggest giving it a listen and we'll put a link in the show notes. But this episode that I'm about to share with you with me and Mark was so amazing because since that previous conversation, it allowed me to get really clear on what I needed and what I wanted and to accept those parts of myself that were super sensitive and emotional and I found someone that can hold space for me in that way who makes me feel incredibly loved and like I'm never too much or too emotional and can meet me there and I really feel that actually

having this conversation with Mark the first time around was really pivotal in that. So thank you, Mark. And I can't wait for you to hear the second conversation. There is a lot, of course, around relationships and ultimately discussing this bridge between how we relate to another and how we relate to ourself and how they're sort of one of the same thing you know to kind of tie it back to the previous episode we did when we can't own and accept parts of ourselves how can we expect another person to so our limitations on intimacy with another is a reflection and a mirror on our limitations and our intimacy with ourselves for those of you who don't know mark he's got an incredible podcast the mark groves podcast, and has created

a brand called Create the Love, which is all around relationships and intimacy. And yeah, I hope you enjoy listening. Before we get into this episode, let's quickly check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Is it worth it to find what you always thought you desired, if it means losing yourself? It's a big question and it seems quite simple, but before contemplating your answer, consider what yourself means. Is it drenched in old expectations and belief systems and therefore stuck in an old paradigm and story? Or do you genuinely feel your true self aligns exactly with said desire or achievement or relationship? And then before you move on, on the flip side, consider whether this desire

is authentic to your true self if achieving this desire, goal or relationship means you lost yourself. Inspired by ancient wisdom, we look at everything through the lens of duality and the wholeness they form when joining together. Just like yin and yang, dark and light, there are always two ways at approaching life and our experience of it. True commitment to growth and a perceived happiness inevitably means taking the time of going inward, at least initially, following the guidance of our inner light, the light we all possess, and recognizing those in our lives who reflect and encourage this very light, hence why having a good mentor or genuine friends or partners can be so beneficial, which relates to Venus astrologically, but more on this

later on. So in doing this, we found the courage to choose either fundamental experience or our core truth. And sometimes this can mean losing the idea of self in order to step into the next version of ourselves, or to simply admit that the achieved desire was never ours to begin with. Once we bite through the Saturnian bitter pill of self-confrontation, we'll find the sweetness of truth inside. Comfort and playing it safe is soothing and works in a recalibrating manner for a while, especially after trauma or breakups or whatever. But after some time, it can be the biggest obstacle to true growth

and the quest for inner contentment. Perceived defeat doesn't always mean personal loss. And outward winning doesn't always mean personal victory. As we near a Saturn return or move past it, this is something we start to recognize, which brings us to Venus. The ultimate goddess as represented in our charts, our true uninhibited feminine principle, yearning for value, love, equality in whichever form she expresses herself. she expresses herself. All charts are different and will have different Venusian expressions, and that's exactly the key to our core, most raw and truthful desire, which in turn informs us of our needs and love language and how to meet them. The trick is to discover them for

ourselves first, be it through the lens of astrology or psychology or any other tool of self-knowledge and self-development. Once we've done this initial work, which can take a long time, we start to attract those who are most compatible and understanding of this part of ourselves. There will always be work to be done as time in every Saturn transit teaches us, every Saturn transit teaches us. But it is Venus that helps us uncover our most uninhibited, unapologetic version of our feminine principle. Mark, welcome back.

It is such an honor to be back. I'm returning with Saturn. I like it. You are returning with Saturn. You're one of the few guests that we've actually had on twice i think we should make you a regular each series i would love to i mean i love speaking with you i love the way your mind works and your audience is so generous whenever i'm on there i'm not trying to prime them whenever they're on whenever i'm on they always reach out and say nice things uh so hint hint well we had such a good response from that episode.

And for those that haven't heard it, we'll put a link in the show notes. But that was, let's just figure out, that was last March? Yeah, that's probably about right. Yeah, I had a little cry. You had a good cry since? Well, I had a little cry on the episode.

Yeah, you did. That's right. I was like, hi, Mark. Nice to meet you. But it was great. And, you know, a lot has gone on since. So I'm very excited to talk to you and like hear where you're at at the moment. Well, your audience is very blessed to have someone who's willing to show vulnerability and emotion.

to have someone who's willing to show vulnerability and emotion. Because I think one of the things about grief, sadness, all the things, is I think it might be the most connective emotion. I've been thinking about that most recently. Joy can be contrived. Excitement can be contrived. Happiness can be contrived. I mean, social media is sort of the epicenter of the fake life. But you can't really fake grief. You can't fake sadness.

And I think my friend- Or vulnerability. Totally. And my friend, Jamie Booth-Cundy, who studies music and positive psych, she was saying once to me that we listen to sad music because it reminds us that other people are sad too. And I think that's true when we hear someone experience something emotional, we're sort of drawn into the humanity of it or reminded of our own humanity. 100%. I'm actually reading this book at the moment that's fantastic. It's called Bittersweet, which is all about the importance of melancholy

and how melancholy actually connects us because it makes us more compassionate. And it is that universal thing of sadness, whether it's a piece of music, a book, an expression from someone you see at a funeral, you feel it. It's a very human thing that, you know, like you just said, the way that we all connect today through social media and stuff. And of course, like that has amazing advantages, today through social media and stuff and of course like that has amazing advantages but it doesn't hold the capacity to show and demonstrate a lot of the time that sort of compassion and sadness and that so people can kind of lash out at each other in a way that they just never would in in real

life so yeah I highly recommend reading that book But from like your experience at the moment with the show and the journey that you've been on, because obviously it centers around relationships, but essentially it's kind of like relating to the self first and foremost. How have things evolved for you from starting Create the Love and where you're at now? I think in the last three years especially, I've had a lot of thoughts of, you know, sometimes the dream you have is not the dream you have. I remember having identities die when I left old work

and started new work and having good cries about that, you know, like who I thought I was, who I thought. And I think that that, I thought that that evolution may have finished, you know, that I would, which is such a, you know, you're set up for a universal bitch slap when you say something like that. But yeah, I found that we get often attached to our identities, you know, or who we think we are

or what we think we stand for or what we think we want to talk about. I think this is true of relating. This is true of work. This is true of everything. We can get so frozen and stuck in even what works and that might work, but it doesn't work. It's functioning.

It's working, but we're not connected to it. And I found the evolution of what I want to talk about more publicly changing. Not so much that because relationships are everything. You can't not be in relationship to something that's not you. Everything's a magnifying glass to our own work. And I was just saying this the other day on social media and on my podcast, just saying that, you know, most people find my work due to something relational, like a relationship ending, a relationship starting, hitting upper limits in connection

as a couple, not being able to move through patterns, not being able to find someone that's aligned. And so you come for this reason. And we come to, I think everyone's work for some reason sort of related to that. We're on a journey of curiosity. And, you know, you inevitably find yourself. That's the answer always. And I think of a quote from Richard Rohr, where he says that you go on a journey to find yourself and you find God. You go on a journey to find God and you find yourself. Like they're not separate processes. And I don't mean God in the sense of like Catholicism or Christianity, but I mean in the sense of connectedness. Like you go on a journey to find more connectedness or a truth or an answer

and you find yourself. You find, I i think the invitation at least i say this now but you know give me six months the i think the real work is to actually restore a sacred relationship with ourselves and and that occurs through our relationship to other things other people because that's such a mirror of where we're not yet liberated, where we can't love, where we can't relax, where we can't trust. Because I think I've heard you say on a solo podcast recently about how we relate to the other is how we relate to the self and our capacity for intimacy with another

is reflective of our capacity and intimacy of where we're able to go in ourselves and if we keep finding or chasing unavailable people where are we also unavailable to ourselves and that really hit me because I think we think of those things as two separate entities you know and also as if they can be in conflict with each other i know personally i've often thought that a relationship would be synonymous with losing myself because that's something i always had a habit of doing so to kind of merge those two things and realize that they are always mirrors to each other i'm like fuck i'm actually just afraid of myself, you know?

And so it's a really interesting thing to kind of navigate. It really is. And it should be navigated with such tenderness too, you know, because I think often we sort of get hard on ourselves because we've self-abandoned or because we find unavailability attractive. And listen, we're like on some level biologically programmed to desire people who appear as if there's a lot of demand for them. Unavailability is one of those things. You want to spend time with people who have sovereignty.

You want to spend time with people who have good boundaries because it means you can trust them. But often walls appear as boundaries or unavailability appears as this sense that they have a sense of self. I've been thinking a lot recently about how when you have walls with another, you have walls with yourself. You know what you were saying. If you have a hard time opening up with them, you have a hard time opening up with you. Those are not separate processes. So we don't trust what they'll see deeper down or we don't trust that a need will get

met. And so in the act of not opening, we're not experiencing. And much like you said about the pursuit of unavailability or the pursuit of toxic patterns, whenever I'm in a relationship with someone who's unavailable, I am not having to actually meet and present all of myself. You know, it appears as though I'm avoiding rejection, but I'm actually living it. Yeah. You're just like existing in it when that's the strange paradox of it is like, we're trying to find someone to choose us. We're trying to find someone to choose us we're trying to find

someone to see us witness us whatever it is and yet the answer is that you're actually seeking that from yourself and when you give it to yourself then you don't seek it anymore but then like well maybe your relational patterns will be calm what will you do with that like what will we do if we're not all scattered around and figure out what's wrong with our bumble program or tinder why does it have a virus well i think that's such a um an interesting point about the unavailability piece and how we kind of confuse that for like a sovereignty or autonomy and that makes a lot of sense in a way because you can see how those things could get confused but it goes back to that piece we were talking about a little bit earlier

about sharing our vulnerability and I think that when you are in that dance and in that pattern of behavior the only choice eventually you'll kind of go through it again and again and again I think until you get to this place where you actually have to state your needs to the other or to your to yourself and step into that vulnerability and there is a possibility that you will be rejected and that person isn't able to meet you there but there is this sort of quiet bittersweet victory because you've actually connected to that part of yourself and you'll kind of feel the rejection but also the reclamation of being like oh I'm able to communicate that and I'm still okay and I'm still safe and I think that that is when you kind of start healing that behavioral pattern and calling something in that is able to meet you there. But then, of course, that opens up a whole nother can of worms of like,

this is calm. This is safe. What the fuck? What do I do now? What do I do now? What do I do? How do I break it? That's really beautiful.

You know, I think you nailed it when you said that when you express your needs with them, they might not be received. But that when you express your needs with them, they might not be received, but when you're expressing your needs with them, you're actually expressing your needs to yourself. And that's actually the victory. That's the odd thing, though, is that requires, as you said, that sort of uncomfortable feeling that you might lose them, but you haven't lost yourself. You might sit in this weird place where

self-worth lives, where sacredness lives, right? That return to a sacred relationship with self. I was thinking recently too, in what world, like this just strikes me as so odd, in what world would us as individuals being the most expanded, most expressed, most joyous version of ourselves ever be a disservice to a relationship? Like, it makes no sense, right? But we're afraid of our totality. We're afraid of speaking. We're afraid. And, you know, we can go to like hereditary patterns, you know, and look back up and, you know, you think of the messaging that men and women have received. But let's say women not be too much, not be too powerful, not make too much, not, you know, men not be too emotional, whatever. And these are obviously not always true.

And I'm not moralizing these things. These are just cultural narratives that we have. like, so we when we're healing those things and becoming what we're taught not to be or is not in the definition, that's the cultural norm. It is an act of rebellion. And it is an act of healing. Because you might go up your matrilineal line and go, Alright, well, when was the last time a woman used her voice? And even if you can find it, which maybe you can't, because it hasn't happened in generations, but if you can find it, which maybe you can't because it hasn't happened in generations, but if you can find it, it might have ended with some sort of severe trauma.

Like it could have been one of the witches being burned. You know, you could have been one of the people burning the witches. You know, no one likes to think about that. I think about that a lot. Right. I think about that a lot. Right. I think about that a lot. I do recently think about that a lot more just because I've seen how people can change how they orient to other people when they're afraid. Sam Harris talks about that in his book, Free Will, that if you were to trade places with

anybody and their circumstances, you would be exactly like they are. And I think that's a very confronting truth. I think it's true. I remember you telling me that the last time we spoke and I was like, oh my God, because I think I've always tried to put myself in someone else's shoes to understand their behavior. And then of course, that puts me in a position of superiority because I'm like, I would never have done what they did. was like well of course i wouldn't because i'm not them with their experiences and that's such a liberating piece because i think we do fall into this perpetrator and the victim dance in relationship a lot of the time and it doesn't allow space for

us to see our own stuff you know how showed up, how we could have done better. It becomes this sort of, especially in the demise of something, this, yeah, this sort of superiority thing of they're in the wrong and I'm in the right. Which is a great place to be, right? Because you don't have to look at your own shit. And I think there is a misconception that to have compassion for let's just call quote-unquote the perpetrator is to negate the

experience of being a victim but we actually have to be able to dance in the both end you know it's kind of like when you look at your parents you know someone might have a real painful experience i think most people have experience being let down by their parents because their parents aren't perfect. They're human. And, you know, when you start to see your parents as the children of parents, then all of a sudden you have a more compassionate lens and it gives you some context to the behavior. And that is what can happen with any experience in life. You could have someone cheat on you. And when you understand who they are and how they showed up in their relational experiences, it might give you context

as to why. And it's not negating or excusing their behavior, just like we're not saying mom or dad is off the hook for being an alcoholic. We just might be able to have a little compassion. And this is a really giant misconception is that to be compassionate is to mean you have to tolerate. But that is totally wrong. You can be compassionate about something and say you're done with that shit. You know, that's, that's actually an act of compassion to self. But I think it opens us up into a space of vulnerability to have compassion, you know, for people we don't politically agree with, we don't ideologically align with. But everyone comes to their ideologies and their

political beliefs and their positions based on the experiences they've had in their life, just like we do. But we love to see ours as the right way. And in doing that, we create a hierarchy and make it so we can't learn from another perception. And it's so protective, like you said, you know, it's protective of our own view when we can righteously say, I'm good. You victimized me. And we do that so subtly. I remember hiring Katie saying that when I interviewed her. She said, we like walk around going like, you don't like me, you did this, you wronged me. And in the radar vision of trying to find all the ways we've been wounded or something has happened, which is not invalidating it. We just are a victim constantly. And then we're not empowered. And society actually does reward

victimization, which again, I'm not victim blaming or any of that. What I'm saying is that if you look at two GoFundMes and one has stories of trauma and the other one doesn't, the one with the stories of trauma actually gets more money. So there's something that we do in that sense. There's a price that we pay for the burden of contempt or that sort of feeling that we carry with us. We don't think so at the time because like you say there is there is a safety in playing the victim and i say that from a place of playing it for a long time i actually remember when i do it sometimes i went i do it i do it out to get me unbelievable and there's also so there's two points that I wanted to make on that.

There's one that's more a recent thing that I'm still kind of navigating that goes back to that, what you just mentioned a second ago about the kind of gender roles. And a dance that often plays out within that is the sort of the man that's the savior and the woman that needs to be rescued. And that's something that we see play out in media. It's conditioned that that's, you know, a woman is a damsel in distress waiting to be saved. But within that, there can play a victim role, you know,

because a woman's like, oh, I'm not capable. And I say this, again, like from this kind of feeling myself, that I'm, and i've noticed it recently whether it's in relationship or work or whatever it might be that i'm afraid of what it would be to not feel like a victim of life because there is then it feels like there's no one that's going to come and save you and that's scary and that's scary yeah and yet we're all like, I want this. I want this relationship that's like conscious and equal. And I want this kind of career. But it's like, but do you really? Because success is scary too. Yeah, it is.

I don't think we acknowledge that we're afraid of success. And to kind of go a bit back, there was a point where I was, when I was 29 I went to this retreat that was it was kind of at a point where I really didn't know what was going on I was navigating a lot of stuff I was very much in a victimhood mentality and we had to do this timeline exercise and it was during a we had like three days of silence and in the timeline exercise I had to answer questions about certain relationships that had come up in my life. And one of them was, what role did you play in this? And I literally was like, I don't understand the question.

That's how sort of, that's how stuck in it I was. So, yeah. You're like, that worksheet, I lost that part of the worksheet. What role did they play? I got that one now. You know, I was talking to Kylie, for those listening, that's my fiance. I was talking to her recently. And this doesn't have to be heteronormative, but I'll give it in the heteronormative context.

How when a woman makes more money than a man, it is hard to express acknowledgement, I think, for men of the contribution of providing because there's an innate societal expectation of providing. And so there's sort of a correlation of masculinity being correlated to that. And so in the acknowledging, there's a vulnerability and there's also the identity has to die of being provider and on the other side of that what i often see relationally is that if the male is a provider there's like and kai was expressing this it was such a beautiful insight because i was saying i so often see that there's a fear of

acknowledging the male as a provider and like i'm saying thank you. Thank you for space. And of course, again, this is not saying we shouldn't say thank you for the caretaking in the home or whatever it is. And again, this doesn't have to be gender specific. But she said that in her experience, there's a vulnerability to acknowledging that you are being taken care of, that you are like sort of abandoning feminism in some way. And I thought that's such a beautiful insight. Like look how two humans can so just in the unconscious, so desire to have it all together and have, and what you said was really interesting about like when we go into relationship and we don't need them and we want to create space. Like who are we if we don't create space for them to feel needed? Who do they become? And so we like create these needs that don't exist. We become someone who need, we create reasons to need support as opposed to being like fully functioning adults. as opposed to being like fully functioning adults.

And, you know, I don't know if I've ever shared this on the pod, but like one thing that Kai does often, which is really kind of funny, but I love it and I don't care, is she'll be opening a jar and she's like, can you open this? And I'm like, fuck yeah. I'm like flexing. I'm like, I got this, I got this shit, you know. The only way you have access to peanut butter is meat, you know,

or pickles or whatever it is. And what I love is there's just this really beautiful sort of underlying thing that's occurring there. One is like, hey, I need you. And it's so subtle. It's like such a beautiful, subtle thing. And I know what's going on, but I don't give a fuck. I'm like, give me that jar. I know what's going on but I don't give a fuck I'm like give me that jar I got you woman you know and and some people would say I'm sure I've seen the criticism before that that's stupid like she doesn't need you to but that's the point

is like she doesn't maybe necessarily need me to but she she knows it matters. Right. And there's like this, there is something about the vulnerability of allowing yourself to be taken care of. And I think one of the most powerful things that couples can do, but this could occur in any relationship, is actually explicitly name the things that are going on in the power structure. Because when one person is paying for stuff,

there's a power structure. And then there's often resentment. And what's interesting is before money, none of this existed. It was like I went out and killed the animal and brought it back and did all the things. And the woman often with the village went out and foraged for berries and stuff. So, you know, it's like both were doing it.

No one came back and was like, well, this ribeye steak is more valuable than your blueberries. So like you're going to have to maybe give me a BJ tonight to make up, you know, like none of that was. But these power structures, of course, are here and they are real. of course, are here and they are real. What's important to just add as well is that they are here and they are real, but they have changed so much in a very short space of time. It's crazy, hey? Yeah, because if you think of our parents' generation,

but beyond that, I guess grandparents, women were very much at home. They didn't really work so in a pretty short space of time we've made it's a lot of progress but then we haven't kind of unpacked these dynamics that are at play of okay so what role am I in this like how do I how do we fit in here and I think it's there's so many so many things that are unsaid within relationships that are probably causing conflict just because people just don't know where to begin totally they have to be named like one thing Kai and I realized in our reunion we broke up for nine months ish and when we came back together was the naming of all these subtle ways that we manipulate or we maintain power or like for me paying for something or her,

you know, appealing to desire, you know, all these things that we learn through society, we learn how to get our needs met. Often we exploit them and we do it subtly. Like look at how when a man buys a woman a drink at a bar in the research, the woman is seen if she accepts the drink as something like 91% more open to sexual advances. Because it's like, I'm buying your time. And some people might go, well, that's great. I get free drinks all night. Great. But they're not actually free. And maybe you have great boundaries and you're like, bye, buddy. Sure. But there is this- Exchange there.

Yes. And that is a principle of influence. If anyone's ever read the book by Robert Cialdini, it's called influence. And one of the principles is reciprocity. And that's like, Hey, if I invite you to my wedding, now you feel obliged to invite me to yours. Like we, and that evolved for a really important reason. And we evolved from tribes saying, Hey, if we give you this, you give us that. And it's just brilliant. It's smart. It creates this sort of unconscious contract and it's used in marketing all the time.

It's like the free sign up, the free download. All those things are appealing to reciprocity. So, you know, if you read Influence, you immediately start to see marketing all around you. It's happening all the time and we're doing it. And we do it in the dating process too by appealing to things like scarcity. When someone goes, there's only 10 spots left. And that can be true. And it also triggers something within us where we're like, oh, fuck, I got to get on the 10 spots. There's so many dynamics to the human experience. But reciprocity in relationship is super important. Because without reciprocity,

it's like, that's when you really know that something is not worth exploring, because it's not being met, the energy is not being reciprocated. But in terms of how it's not being met the energy is not being reciprocated but in terms of how it's uh yeah i mean from your perspective with you and kai how have you had these conversations about these dynamics yeah you know recently she's needed to take some time to just heal be present do the things and hasn't been working as much. And so I've been providing more and we just have the conversation. Like I was talking to some friends and I was, I was telling her about the, I have like some, because these, I think exist in most people. I'll just say that. So I feel better about myself, but like some of the subtle things about being the youngest child

is that when I have to share like a dessert or something, I'm not into it. Like I don't want to fucking share with you. And my brain, if there's one thing and it has to be split, my brain immediately is like, get it before the other person does. Eat the whole thing. Seriously. I'm like, cause if I didn't, my brother would, he'd eat it all. I would have been considerate about, I like to say about splitting it, but this fucking guy, he'd go and eat it all. then he'd be like sorry man you missed your chance and i'm like oh man so then it was like eat or don't eat and so i say to kai often i joke that when i cut something and there's a bigger piece she immediately doesn't give a shit like she's like take the bigger one but I actually consciously give her the bigger one for personal growth like I actually love that that's amazing

whilst you're doing it you're like shaking like I really want this piece of cake I'm not I'm kidding you the part of me that's like I want it all which is why i can be so prone to things like addiction because i like i'm an over consumer of everything and we joke about it because she's like that is actually the narrative in your mind i'm like yeah and it's funny but to speak on a different space which is similar is that when she was sitting around relaxing on the couch and I'm like, my unconscious shadow is like, how's the couch? You know, how's it going? Meanwhile, she's like doing really important things, you know, but my fucking condescending righteousness. And so what we do is we talk about that. I talk about the voice. I talk about the thought. And most people wouldn't talk about the thought because they'd be afraid that their partner would hear that you're such a dick below the –

I can't hold space for it, yeah. Right. And what was so beautiful is we just now have this dance, although it doesn't always dance this nicely, but mostly it does, where she's like, what do you need in order? Because that's resentment. And if there's resentment, there's not something being spoken. And I was like, sometimes I think I just need to hear like, thank you. Like, thank you for creating this space for this or whatever it is. And she is so good.

She's just like, thank you. Like, it means so much to me. And she kind of, you know, she got teary and she's like, I just want, I never want you to feel like I'm not grateful or I'm not. And it happens vice versa, of course, too, in all things. But we're very mindful of bringing what is implicitly the mind talk and the resentment and bringing it to the surface so we can call out the unconscious power structures and the resentments because then they don't live in our connection. And what happens is they're often like inherited patterns of thought. You know, the way my dad or

mom communicated was maybe not calling out the explicit thing. It was like, right. And so by doing this, we're like healing and we're feeling liberated because there's space for all of us in the relationship, even the kid who wants most of the fucking cookie. Like, I wanted that big piece of cake. Seriously. And there's only a few things

that she'll actually take the bigger piece, but it's usually something that she likes and I'm not as much of a fan of. But man, I got to tell you, never think personal growth is sharing like a dessert, but it is. No, I love that because I completely relate. And I think everyone listening will. And we'll all have our own stuff.

I've been thinking a lot recently about how relationships, long-term relationships get to that point where they say i don't know how we got here so i i look at my parents my parents are divorced and i'm kind of like i think about it and i think at one point they were in love so how did they get to where you know they ended up i hope my mom wouldn't mind me sharing that. But, and so I've just, cause I've also never really, I'm like going into a long-term relationship now in one and that's the first time for me. And it brings up a lot of fear, but I think that piece around the voice in your head, it's like often that stems from a childhood experience where, like you say, you, if you didn't eat that cake or like grab it while you could

it was gone and for me it goes back to a thing of wanting to be perhaps so I seek in relationship that kind of being taken care of thing that because of my um how I showed up in not how I showed up that's the wrong way of saying it but my role in family was like the mediator and quite quiet and didn't want to make too much of a fuss of things because there would be an explosion so it was actually always trying to calm things down so now in relationship there's a part of me that's like I want to be taken care of I want do you know what I mean because I didn't didn't get that and so i have to really notice it and my partner and i have conversations where he's like i have to notice and

not play into the savior role and when he says that you know there's a side of me that feels oh my god he actually trusts that i'm able to be my like fullest expression of self and that i can do all the things but there is a part of me that's like no I want to be taken care of and then also what was the other thing you just mentioned that I found so interesting oh yeah how we can bring that into the relationship because I think the reason that a lot of people like it's such a small thing at the beginning that could easily be nipped in the bud, but we don't. We keep it in ourselves and then build up resentment. But we've never actually communicated what we're thinking because we don't think we can because of, you know, generations never speaking in that kind of way.

So I'll share a story recently that happened with my partner, which it happened last year when we first were like getting into a relationship and we went away together. And the beauty of like spending time away for a long period meant that we had to kind of navigate these things rather than pull back. And there was something he'd said to me that had rattled me. And it was his own like defense mechanism. I think it was like something about like, I said something about honeymoons. He was like, we're not getting married, like calm down.

And in my head, my ego was like, he would be so lucky. And then we went to watch the sunset and we had to walk across like all this mud. And there was a part of me that was like, I really want him to fall in the mud. And he said later on, once I'd calmed down, he was like, you wanted me to fall. I was like, I did. There was a voice in my head that was like, fall, fall. He could like sense in you the little mischievous little.

Exactly. And so now whenever we're kind of going through that kind of thing, he'll just look at me and he'll go, fall, fall. Oh, he says that. That's so good. And then actually, because we're on holiday at the moment, we went, we did some water sports we were like in a donut thing

you know when you're just kind of holding on for dear life yeah that's what we did in Canada and I was in a really bad mood we were having a bit of a like bicker over something and he was like let's stand up it will be more fun

and I was like no I'm not standing up. And he stood up. And then he flew out of the back of the donut. And the driver kept going. There was a point where I was like, I might not say anything. And later on, he was like, you thought about not saying anything, didn't you? And I was like, yes, I did. Isn't it so good to call out the mischievous parts of ourselves?

Well, that's the thing. We all have them. And I think if you can make light of them, because they are actually quite funny, because there are so many parts of us that play all the time in relationship. We have to go through so many different emotions in the space of the day so of course we're going to experience that throughout a relationship but I think we hold on to things rather than express it and then that builds over time yeah you know

it's I heard someone yesterday had said to me I really crave to be witnessed in relationship. And I was like, that's interesting, you know, because when you break down that statement, even what you're craving is to witness yourself fully in relationship. And of course, you were mentioning earlier, of course, the ideal is that the other person can hold that. But the actual act of success is the witnessing of self at the cost potentially of relationship. But what is always deepened is the love, right? Like whether it's with them or with someone else, there's a deepening and there's a courageous thing.

You know, most of us want the other person to go first, the other person to take the risk, the other person to start the conversation, but then we end up in a life waiting for other people. And recently I was thinking about how to really have successful love, whatever that might be defined for people. But I really see it as the freedom to feel like we can be ourselves. And that being these weird fucking things like wanting them to slip in mud or fly off and maybe never find their way back till they apologize you know

kai i was saying to her we we got in a tiff about something and i was like you need to apologize for that and she's like i am not apologizing and then she said something after and i'm like that was a really beautiful roundabout apology it was like that was not an apology I'm like, that was a really beautiful roundabout apology. It was like, that was not an apology. I'm like, babe, it's cool. Like, it's cool if that's, I take it how it is. It's cool. And she's like, oh, fuck. But I really think if we can sort of lay ourselves at the altar of relationship, you know, and that it really is this sacred act, this sacred act that's just so beautiful can i hold space for all of me hold space for all of them because so many people could say oh you had that thought i see this a lot too actually where i interviewed this guy named therapy jeff who's really funny he's i

listened to that that was really good yeah and you know the part when you guys were talking about the red flags i was like hell no i'm not asking my exes what my red flags are. I know, right? It's like such vulnerability, like what are my red flags? I like other people. Again, that works. She lost that one. One thing he said that, oh my God, it triggered so much pushback was that when is it okay to have a crush on someone else when

you're in a relationship? And, you know, immediately a lot of people's response to that is, and we're not defining crushes like going out and banging people or like, you know, texting them dick pics and shit like that. We're talking like you meet someone and there's a connection. Well, man, most of the response that I see, not most, that's probably not fair, but a lot is if you have that experience, you're not in love. If you have that experience, you're not committed to your relationship. And I was like, Jesus Christ, like, is there any space for our biology? Like, you can't tell me you're not on Instagram and you see some coconut oiled abs and you're not like, what's up? You know, like, like people look at Ryan Gosling and now they're

cheating on their partner because they want to bang them. Like, you know. Do you think it stems from religious beliefs? I think it stems from this toxic idea that commitment, because we're so afraid of being betrayed, because we're so afraid of our relationships not lasting. It's like anything that might threaten that is just immediately rejected, but then it can't be embraced because you can't like to say you never experienced some sense of attraction. Attraction is separate from desire, right? Like I can be attracted to someone, there can be a connection and I can know that I'm not investing in it because I'm investing in my relationship. And the denial of the reality that you can at least find people attractive. Let's just start

there. The fact when someone says like, if you find other women attractive, then you're a cheating prick. It's like, okay okay we need to calm down you probably have some wounding about betrayal and that's totally fair but we need to just actually we have to allow space for our humanity and relationships and he really broke it down nicely i think he did a good job but you know a lot of it caused a lot of reactivity and did i agree with everything he said no but that's not the point of life is not to fucking agree with everybody you know i think well didn't he say didn't he say that you're the idea is to be able to communicate it within partnership yes yeah which of course because i think i completely agree with you and i think that this idea that we you know

are in one relationship with one person for life and we never have any other connection or desire anyone else, it's just not realistic. But that is the construct within a monogamous relationship a lot of the time that you're supposed to abide by. And so it creates, one, a feeling that you're kind of out of integrity when you're not or a feeling of shame or a feeling of like the container of a relationship then becomes a prison because you're like I'm not able to feel or express myself and like again I'm not suggesting people go out and act on these things but at the time, how hard is it to be able to communicate this stuff in relationship?

Like that really pushes everyone's boundaries and capacity because it triggers the other person, you know. I've noticed it. I noticed it with myself. Like if I think, even this morning, for instance, we had a Pilates session with quite an attractive Pilates instructor. And I could feel. Male, female? Female. Okay.

Female. And I could feel afterwards like the interaction, like me getting that kind of prickly jealousy thing. And, you know, I had to just be, sit with it and be this is this is like my stuff to experience because even if there was a an attraction whatever like so what do you know what i mean but i think a lot of people think they're entitled to lash out at the other i agree i think when we don't trust ourselves with connection to we try to create these zero like these binaries of what's okay and what's not, because we have denied maybe desire in ourselves for other people. And again, none of this is right or wrong or blah, blah, blah. I'm saying that when you said, do you think the source of this

is religion? I think in some way, yeah, actually you're right. Because when I think about what religion tends to teach about desire is that desire is bad. And the only time sex is okay, generally, is in the context of marriage. And so if you have desire, and a lot of religions teach this, if you have arousal or desire, you're not supposed to touch yourself first off. So no mix in the mic, no jerk in the chicken, whatever you call it. It's like, none of that's allowed, but yet here are all these people doing it because they're human and it feels good. And we'd like to do things that feel good. But if we have a belief system that says desire is bad and we as humans innately experience arousal, then we have to either

innately experience arousal, then we have to either realize that the belief system is flawed or believe that we are flawed. The majority of the time, the identity that's created is that we are flawed. It's much like Gabor Mate talks about children when their parents don't show up for them, have the choice of two beliefs. One, my parents are flawed, or two, I am, and that's the reason they don't show up. And most children choose the second, because to believe your parents are flawed is too existentially debilitating. Challenging. Yeah. So I think when we get into these zero and one binary ways of what relationship means, or monogamy means, or commitment commitment means we end up being stuck in these boxes that don't allow for flexibility and self-expression and really it's about being

able to say that you know like if i see a guy that's attractive it's like i think it's so funny that dudes think that if you think a dude's attractive your eye is like well i might be sliding down the road of being gay like i better I better be careful. I know. As if men can't register or notice if a man's attractive. I'm like, of course you can. Such ridiculousness, you know? Like, it's like if I look at Ryan Reynolds, I can't be like, yeah, I get it. Like, if I was a dude, I'd hook up with Ryan Reynolds. Like, why not?

Or if I am a dude. But if I was a gay dude. I was like, fuck. If I was a dude. You are a dude. Yeah. See, he's so handsome that he made me forget my gender. But yeah, you know, being able to call out the reality of that,

like I think it's not a bad thing to be able to appreciate beauty. And I think our own insecurities often are what gets heightened there. And so it's an invitation to our insecurities. You know, if we're jealous of someone who maybe maintains specific disciplines and decisions, we might be resentful that we don't do that ourselves. And so it's really an invitation for us to make decisions that are more in alignment with our values. Well, I think that's an important piece to add is that if it's in integrity, because

I know that sometimes people will use it as a way to kind of stir things with their partner, you know, to try and stir jealousy. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not cool. Well, some people learn that drama is the only way to feel alive, to feel connection, as opposed to finding connection and trust and calm. And the one rule I gave, so for everyone listening who's like, fuck, I don't like this crush subject. It's the rule I gave is that if you're not comfortable with your partner

witnessing how you're behaving and how you're writing and who you're being, then you shouldn't do it. Like if you wouldn't be willing to behave the way you're behaving in front of your partner, like if Kai picks up my phone, I have no concerns. She can go all day, check it out because I don't do anything that I'm worried about because the operation of how I operate my life is to be in integrity with the choices I make. Doesn't mean I'm not, you know, when people end up in spaces of betrayal, it's because there's things that are unspoken. You know, there's things that are not being spoken about. You don't have to leave a relationship

to leave a relationship. And often people leave the relationship and starve it of connection and intimacy. And sometimes that causes one partner to step out because they're feeling so starved of connection. Now, both of them are feeling starved of connection. That's true. But that can sometimes be the source of infidelity or betrayal. That's why I say like, the cheater's not always the villain. And as soon as we can just, again, that's a confronting statement. And I'm speaking out of the context of serial narcissistic cheaters.

Like that's a whole other run, get out of there. There's no goal to fix that. It becomes this very binary thing of, oh, they cheated, they're in the wrong, without actually going into the context of, like you say, if someone is starved and deprived of attention, intimacy, and love, like, you know, we're human at the end of the day. What are we going to do? With that part of the worksheet, right?

That's the worksheet that says, how did we contribute to this? And everything in our lives, we are saying yes to if it's in our life. And so- We're co-creating. Exactly. So if we can just say, okay, well, either way, I'm co-creating it. Someone will say like, well, I'm in a relationship with this person who's narcissistic and this and that.

And it's like, yeah, but you're choosing that still, like not to dismiss the experience of what might be trauma or anything, but there's still a template and a pattern that makes us choose these things. And it's to go explore that. That's really important. And we can't do that unless we're willing to take 100% responsibility for what we're creating and agreeing to, as you said. And I think to be able to catch ourselves and check in with whether we're in integrity,

because it's like, it's one of those things that's such as a small, like you always say say I think a small act of betrayal becomes a big act of betrayal and that can be an act of betrayal in yourself where you just like do a little thing but also when you're withholding the truth to yourself and in your partnership that's that can create this massive void further down the line but that's also a really scary thing you you know, sharing our truth, whether that's in relationship or to self or to the collective. Yeah, to take responsibility for these betrayals of not offering the truth to the relationship.

I miss you. I'm hurt. I feel I've taken for granted. I feel like I'm taking you for granted. Like any of those things when they're not communicated are actually betrayals to the sacred connection that is the choice of another. But we don't tend to live with that level of integrity in our relationships. That's not a common relational agreement. I would say that that's very rare, but it's necessary. And that's why we see relationships hit upper limits because relationships can only go so far with the templated patterns from our childhood, right? And that's like, we can only get to so much depth of intimacy when that intimacy is codependent and requires self-abandonment. Like if our relationship itself is not a place where we can be all of ourselves, then we're not going to feel safe to

dive deeper into intimacy, into me see, like we're not willing to feel safe to dive deeper into intimacy, into me see, like we're not willing to do that. And so we end up hitting these limits that require the dissolution of self, the healing of trauma, the healing of patterns, the healing of generational shit. Like, again, like romantic relationship is, I think, the most potent container for self expansion. It really can be a journey of awakening when the relationship, instead of being you complete me or I don't need anybody because those are certainly two different frameworks, it's actually through you I am greater. Through you I find myself. Through you I am expanded. you i find god through you i find jesus whatever the

thing is that connects us to something greater and we see that the person's feedback is actually the vehicle yeah but also to to sit in the discomfort so if something has been expressed or subjects that has come up and it's not been met in the way that you kind of anticipated and then you kind of go oh okay that's that's not safe or that's not that's not going to be okay and then you kind of contain all of that and feel that upper limit I think it's a really challenging thing that we just don't have much education on to be able to bring it back to the table at a different time and go hey this was met in this way and you know it's important to me that I'm able to bring it back to the table at a different time and go hey this was met in this way and you know it's important to me that I'm able to share that aspect of myself with you can

we can we talk about it in a calm way because the problem is of course we're always going to be so triggered in relationship and we go into these things where it's just often one person's wounding will set off the other and that's often why we're drawn together in the first place and then you just kind of like oh okay that's not safe Let's bury that and never mention it again. But it doesn't go away. No, it'll always come back up. And yeah, you said something that's so true. How are we supposed to navigate these things when we're never taught how to navigate them? We're not even taught that that's how to relate. I didn't get a single class in school that was on social and emotional intelligence.

I had to learn it through socially and emotionally intelligent parents, coaches, teams, things like that, conversations with people like you. They broaden that, they stretch us. We can listen to other people speak and actually pick up how they dialogue about emotion. That's why it's so important to consume things like podcasts,

to consume the way that people find language to express things first gets heard, then gets modeled, then gets repeated, then becomes, right? It's like thoughts thought over and over again become beliefs. It's the same thing with repetition in terms of learning how to relate. But where do we learn this? I remember in math class learning about sine, cos, and tan. I haven't used, I haven't used an calculator first off since college, really, other than the one on my phone for like the odd thing. But like, I will never again in my life, I guarantee it, use sine, cos, or tan. And right, like, imagine if they had taken the same module that I'm going to argue is completely fucking useless unless you're doing something that requires that. Right. Like, listen, algebra. Great. It teaches you other things. I remember saying that I was taught in school, the Pythagorean

theorem, but nothing of any actual fucking use. And someone wrote back in response to that, a mathematician, and it was so great. And he was saying that actually the Pythagorean theorem has everything to do with relationship and he broke it down. And I thought that was really cool because there is ways that we systematically learn things that we adopt those algorithms to other things in our lives, like problem solving, right? Like I learned sales, how to handle objections. Well, that's the exact same way that you handle dialogue and conversation and relationship. So, you know, I think if we had just taken the same amount of time to learn that, to just learn how to have nonviolent communication,

I mean, look at our society today. We generally don't know how to disagree. We generally think if you disagree with me, then you're anti or you're against or you're pro or you're left or you're right. We have all these boxes that we put people in. And as I've shared on my podcast, when you put people in boxes, you become the kind of person who puts people in boxes. And that in itself is dehumanizing of ourselves. And so we like to organize someone as a narcissist or anxious or avoidant or right. Like we like these labels and structures and they're helpful because they help organize the world, much like the Pythagorean theorem.

But at the end of the day, humans are complex and there's so much nuance and there's so much nuance to ourselves. And when we don't allow ourselves to explore the gray or be curious about someone else's world, it means that we don't allow ourselves to be curious about our own. We might be afraid of what we find, I might have been afraid of finding the little kid who wants to eat all the dessert. But if I'm afraid of finding that, then I won't be able to be curious about the little kid and somebody else because I'm afraid. And, you know, I was saying, someone was saying to me the other day, like, why do you find so much value in grief? Because I do. I think grief is one of the richest, most potent transformational emotions.

And I was saying, because I've experienced it, like I've experienced that. So when someone comes to me and says, I'm going through this thing and I'm experiencing such grief, I'm like, great. Like, let me hold your hand so you know you're still afloat, but I'm not going to save you from it. And I think as people, we try to save people from feelings we don't know the value of. And when we learn the value of grief, because we've swam in it and we discovered parts of ourselves we never knew existed or we rediscovered, then we will never save anyone from it because we know the potency of it. We know the alchemical process that it can be much like joy, can be much like arousal, can be much like all these things, it can be all gateways.

But I think grief is just this potent one that collectively, we were talking about at the very beginning, that there is a collective experience to grief, but it also is an emotion that really roots you in the ground. You don't really have a choice. It's coming for you. And if you don't let it come for you, it will come for you through addiction. It'll come for you through materialism. It'll come for you and if you don't let it come for you it will come for you through addiction it'll come for you through materialism it'll come for you or it will remain what was coming up to for me is

this you know this theme that we often explore on the show is that of personal sovereignty being able to kind of come home to yourself in the confusion and the chaos of what's going on and if you are finding yourself kind of lost in the confusion of the chaos of what's going on and if you are finding yourself kind of lost in the confusion of it all which feels very easy to do it's like how can you come home to yourself in this and that's what I always try to do I think when things get you know it's impossible not to feel impacted in some capacity with everything that's happened over the last couple of years and probably going to continue to happen but when you can kind of just create that sacred space within you to kind of check in with with where you're at i think that that's a good place for people to

start amen i totally agree it's all a reflection with this kind of stuff what is your advice for people because obviously sometimes i feel with these conversations people feel like they're part of well people are part of them but then it kind of scratches the surface on lots of things and then i feel like i want to leave people with a bit of uh i don't know some solutions yeah yeah yeah you're We're all fucked. Let's smoke weed, get addicted to porn. That's not the answer, FYI. I mean, the way out is self-inquiry, finding reverence. That journey that we talked about at the beginning, to return to a sacred relationship with ourselves. You know, I think if we're someone who holds on to words, then the practice is beginning to express them. It's beginning to say, I'm not okay with how things are going. I'm not okay with how I'm doing. I'm not okay with, you know, one of the most powerful exercises I ever did, which seems so simple is I wrote down a giant

list of everything I was done doing. And then I wrote down a giant list of everything I was done doing. And then I wrote down a giant list of everything I wanted to start. And then from that day forward, I committed to stopping doing everything with things I was done doing and starting doing the things I wanted to. And one of the first things on the list was silencing myself to people, please, to keep the peace. And as soon as I did that, I was I was free well it's like you you said I think that's such an amazing thing because what I think we tend to do and you said it yourself it was like I don't know I'm gonna kind of butcher it but it was something about living in like a prison that you'd created but then being able to blame other people for it and that's we all do that you know

it's like oh I'm I hate that I can't do this so I can't you know I'm not able to blame other people for it. And that's, we all do that. You know, it's like, oh, I hate that I can't do this. I can't, you know, I'm not able to do that. But we never really recognize that we're the only ones that can break that. We're the only ones that can change it and do something different. It's so true. There's that Rumi quote,

like, why do you stay in the prison when the door's right there? And when the door's wide open and you're like, yeah, it's so simple. Like, I'm not allowed to do that, but I'm the one not allowing myself to do that, but it's actually their fault. Oh, it's such a fucking great trick. And you know, that's the first part is actually exploring that. What are you done doing? How do you start to move towards what feels like liberation,

expansion, where you're not free and you start moving towards that. And I think the other side too, is to really live in a state of curiosity. Like when I have views that are different than someone else, and there's someone who can have a conversation, because don't try to do this with people who can't converse. But I actually want to really understand their perspective. Like I have a deep admiration and reverence for whatever decision someone has made in order to get to where they are, because I know it's made through the lens of their experience, their fears, their hopes. And that's the thing I've seen in the last three years, especially, is that really most people are orienting around similar values. They're just orienting differently and they're considering their way the right way. And that is where the problem comes, is that we've moralized our own choice. And that means we've demoralized the

other person's. And that is really protective, again, that hierarchy. It creates a protective where I can't see you. And the whole point is for me not to see you, because if I can see you, then I can't dehumanize you. And this isn't speaking to a specific side. I know most people think, oh, that's about that. It's not. That happens on all sides. And that's a protective mechanism that humans use, you know, righteousness so that I don't have to have connection. I don't have to be compassionate. And it comes back again to the same skill we talked about when you're in relationship you know can you be compassionate for it can you also what i think is interesting too is when you want uh your partner to be left behind on the tube you know or not left behind he flew into the sea right he falls in the sea and you're like, good luck, bro.

You know, and I think about that too, you know, thinking I am, I know a hundred percent for certain that I've thought about for sure something like Kylie slipping in mud, you know, what I think is interesting from both sides of that is calling out the part of us that wants to do them to experience that. But also when we're the person left behind or the person they hope to slip in the mud, I would ask myself, am I someone who, like what part of me deserves to slip in the mud? And there would be a real truth to that. I'd be able to go, there is for sure a part of me that I can see that person wanting me to experience that.

And when we can- And that is the key. Right. Yeah. Because then we go, yeah, sometimes I can be fucking annoying. I know that. Sometimes I can be, you know, a little bulldozy with my opinions. For sure, I can. But I can claim that and then I can at least soften into it

so when someone says that to me, I can be like, you're actually right. And And you know, as Byron Katie said, you can't have war with one person. As soon as someone says you're being defensive, you go, tell me more about that. I hated when she said that though, because I was like, I don't want to hear more about fucking bullshit. Again, can we skip that worksheet? I like the worksheet that's all about them. I love that. I actually was writing about that recently. I started listening to that episode today and I'm going to finish it, but I was writing, you know, what's the quickest way? And this is in the context of relationship. What is the quickest way to win the war? And it's to put down your weapon first and obviously i could say that but all i'm doing is

slightly let someone else drive the boat then you're fine then you're going to be alive mark it's been such a pleasure as always yes and we adore having you on the podcast so thank you so much for joining us again. Thanks for having me. I can't wait to hopefully connect in person. When I listened back to this episode, I just felt so much joy because I just love connecting with Mark. And I think he's got so much wisdom

and also meets everything with a lot of humor, which is, I feel is my approach to these things as well because you know we cover some pretty heavy subjects on this podcast and they can feel you know a lot but I think it's really important to inject humor because it lightens the load and it also makes communicating around these subjects easier like we said in this episode you know with within partnership the funny sort of childlike qualities or thoughts we have about each other and making room for all of those parts I especially found interesting you know this idea of sort of I guess it's boundaries in relationship but how we go into it presuming a lot you know we

think we're gonna operate in the same we're gonna have our own ideas of of what is a betrayal of what is okay of like flirting and things like that and so this episode really kind of called me to question okay like how do we communicate this stuff and as Mark says with his relationship it's like you bring it to the table and that is not an easy thing to do and obviously you know like he said in this episode it's something that not many of us are practicing but this really important idea that when we aren't our fullest expression of self and when we hide things away that in itself is an act of betrayal and that really struck a chord with me so I hope you enjoyed this episode if you want to check out Mark's podcast

Create the Love it's incredible he also offers some amazing courses that I have done I highly suggest giving them a go because whether you're looking to call in the right kind of partner like it really helps unpack and reprogram a lot of stuff. Also don't forget we have the Saturn Returns book available which I have been working on for the last year and a half and we've got a live show happening in January at Cadogan Hall in Chelsea and Stoller Hall in Manchester. So those are taking place on the 18th and 19th of Jan and i would love to see you there there is an opportunity to buy a ticket with a book so you'll get a signed copy from me and yeah it'll be a beautiful evening don't forget you can also get a reading with our astrological guide nora and you

can find a link to that in the show notes thank Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Saturn Returns. I hope it has helped you today and if it has perhaps you could share it with a friend you think might find it useful. And remember you are not alone. Goodbye.