Saturn Returns with Caggie - 6.8 Unmasking Your True Self with Melissa Hemsley

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Chef and best-selling cookbook author, Melissa Hemsley, joins Caggie in this conversation about finding happiness and balance in your true self.  Melissa openly shares how she is working on herself in therapy and the difficulty of actually being open and honest about who you are, as well as exploring the struggle of perfectionism and releasing the need for praise.  They also discuss their mutual love of naps, why it’s important to feel fear and do things that scare you, and Melissa’s profound experience during The Bridge retreat.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. I think it's unrealistic to ever be completely yourself. As much as I, you know, I'm committed to being as honest as I can on your podcast, because that's what it's all about. We're not always honest with ourselves even when we're on the loo,

are we, by ourselves? Or are we? We're always filtering, tweaking slightly. On this week's episode of Saturn Returns, I am joined by the lovely Melissa Hemsley. Melissa is a food columnist, best-selling cookbook author, real food activist and sustainability champion. She is passionate

about spreading the power of feel-good food. In this conversation I have with Melissa, we talk about the pressures on women and this concept of feeling like we have an expiry date, like we're running out of time. But actually what we kind of unpacked was what's the rush? A lot of these beliefs around what we should be doing or how we should be living our life or what we should have achieved by a certain point, especially around the milestone of turning 30, often adjust society's conditioning and not actually true. And it's a real mission statement of mine to unpack that and to try and empower others to believe that they can live a life authentically and that

they don't have to follow the status quo. Melissa and I also share a love of napping and why that's so important so I'm a Taurus so everyone that knows me knows I love a nap. Melissa also talks about Donna Lancaster and Melissa actually introduced me and Donna and she was on a previous episode of this season and discusses the bridge retreat and how that impacted her. Before we get into this episode let's check in with our astrological guide Nora. Saturn in the charts acts as a self-regulator wherever it sits in the charts will point towards where we should mature and reassure ourselves of our ability to do so because it's saturn we're speaking of it can take a lot of tough lessons before we're able to even acknowledge that the internal reassurance and examination of coping mechanisms really is up to us.

The work that comes with letting go of what stands in between us and the liberation of crippling anxiety, low self-esteem, procrastination and unproductive perfectionism and so forth, which are all issues that deal with the feeling of safety or lack of it within the body and perhaps even a lack of true connection to the body. Root chakra work, for example, can be amazing to really understand the core and triggers for some of these issues. Connecting with the body through exercise, a reliable routine, nutrition, meditation, contemplating where we feel scarce, resting, as well as simply noticing where and when it feels unsettled and unsafe, can point to where Saturn is trying to wake us up and help us find a way to build our own structure

and seek the knowledge and help we need in order to become closer to the adult and soothing, reassuring presence we needed all along, so that we may leave anything that cripples us behind and find the internal freedom to become whom we've always wanted to be well at least one saturn transit at a time well melissa thank you for coming on the saturn return show i'm super excited for our conversation thank you you were sort of one of the front runners of the first people to kind of get into the the food space and in that time where it was all really new. What was that experience like for you? And can we start from the very beginning when you kind of your career begun? Well, I wanted to be a doctor. I think probably because my mum wanted me to be a doctor. And I think I probably announced it at an age as we all do sort of just test the

waters with saying things we want to be and become and I think I sort of I got a lot of praise for it so I think I really went for it in terms of um at school too and I got so much praise for it I think I loved the idea of being a helper come healer but I wasn't prepared for the amount of the blood the emotions the gore and when I was 16 I went to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital to do you know a work experience day which is literally you know you just stand there and watch I went to the paediatric ward and I watched a circumcision on the six-year-old I remember I think Wimbledon tennis had started that day and it was so hot and I just thought it's so hot it's a circumcision we then had to go and chat to the parents and let them know they were obviously like oh thank you so much and I thought well that's really nice but also no that

you know I couldn't even handle that amount of blood and what do we let them know did they not know I can't believe they just let two 16 year old school girls that just done their GCSEs walk around it was it was mad and then my second week I think I went to because I'm a Kingston girl I went to I think Wimbledon to the um pathology forensic labs and I just thought my gosh props to all the healthcare professionals but it's not for me I'm too emotional for this and it's so funny because I've listened to a hell of a lot of Saturn Returns ginormous fan thank you for having me on can't quite believe it um and I I know you've you've

talked a lot about emotions and being you know you're too emotional or you know thinking it's perhaps the negative but actually I think it's got me where I am now and I think the interest in biology and working with people to understand their body and understanding my own body is where I'm at now come you know how old am I now I'm about to turn 37 how old are you I'm 33 so you would have just gone through your Saturn maturation as well which is like another visit from Saturn. Hello Saturn, thank you. I've had quite a good year of connecting to to nature, to myself, to the universe. I'm feeling really good. I think if you had asked me

even three months ago I wouldn't, I would have been, I was in a very more fearful, introverted space. You know, we are still coming out of this pandemic. I know. How's it been for you coming out of it? Slow and steady, you know, in the best possible way. I've rushed myself definitely at points. Must catch up. Must earn the money I lost. Must get back out and see. Must be the best guest at the wedding because it's been rearranged three times so definitely can't cancel even though I'm not well

and all that stuff what about you yeah it's that it's strange actually because during the pandemic I actually was doing okay like I think because then you know I started the podcast I had that to really lean into and it kind of held me accountable and gave me something to really invest my time and energy in and also because it acted as a support system for a lot of other people that were kind of going through it and a lot of people in my family and friends were really struggling with anxiety some of them for the first time ever it sort of creeped its way up and you know people in my family that have never experienced that kind of mental health struggle so I think the space that the pandemic created meant that a lot of things were unearthed and came to the surface for the first time for a lot of people

so that you know on one hand was quite painful for people to have to really look at that stuff but I would say at that moment I was I felt quite grounded but since and especially in the last couple of months I've been struggling a lot with anxiety because I feel like there it is just everything's kind of on speed at the moment and we've come out of it we've come out of this sort of collective trauma and also not fully acknowledged the damage that's been done in so many different areas and the consequences of that that we're going to be facing you know going forwards and then but like you say everyone's just sort of like wanting to say yes to all the things get busy doing everything

making up for lost time and it's quite it's quite exhausting and I'm struggling to keep up with that I think you know I enjoy that the pace slowed down in the pandemic a bit. I agree. I feel like it's almost like I want a nice big grown-up with a gentle, reassuring voice to give us all a big debrief and say, you know, we had so many briefings that didn't make sense. And now I want someone to debrief me on it all and rub my back, tell me the next plan. I've started taking naps. I'm really glad we're recording this at this time because I've really planned my day around my meal time and then my nap I started taking uh naps at about three o'clock you know I have a nap at three

well it goes in phases but for the last like three or four days, I've had a nap at three. Isn't it? But it's really, sometimes it's really hard to get up. I'm quite a bitch when I get up. There's a lot of people that sort of come out of a nap like a lovely cute cat, like, ooh, lovely. And then there's the bitches that come out and like raging. I often feel like a kid and I'm angry and I never know who's going to wake up but why did you start your naps to be honest I've always been fond I love sleeping I

really love sleeping for me it's really important and you know I've had the luxury of working in my own time so I can I wake up quite early and I'll start working and then by three I can often yeah hit a bit of a wall and like to have I love a nap my boyfriend was like you're so lucky because it'd be like what have you been doing I'm like oh I just took a nap he's like you don't understand been chained to the desk so nothing is is the ultimate privilege, I think. This incredible woman, Kimberly Wilson. Do you know Kimberly Wilson, How to Build a Better Brain? She, love her, really recommend her book. She's actually just announced her next book

about food and how it affects our mood, which is what I'm really into as well. She's my real inspiration. I learned loads from her. She and I did a, had a conversation through the pandemic. I also did something. I started my feel-good session, similar to you, to sort of be held accountable, connect, feel not alone.

And she said, when did we have to earn good things, things that are good for us? Like, why do we have to earn an app? And I really liked that. It still didn't start me on the naps, but then I really realised that at three o' start me on the naps but then I really realized that at three o'clock I didn't want to drink a coffee I didn't want to have a meltdown I didn't want to just spend two hours ineffectively working and so I just thought okay maybe I should just close my

eyes and sometimes do you always fall asleep or sometimes you just as my mom would say just rest your eyes I honestly can sleep anywhere it's such a gift so I'll sometimes just think I'll just close my eyes for a bit I won't actually nap and then I'll fall asleep like I'll fall I can fall asleep yeah I fall asleep in cars fall asleep on the like back of a speedboat when it's driving off I get to sleep on trains like I love it but it's an it's an interesting point you just made because it's funny how we feel we need to justify these things and it's it's something I wrestle with because on one hand I feel more aware that you know we don't all operate in the same way we can't it's not sustainable to be go go go all the time and if you look at the sort of mental health implications of a culture in a society that is go go go it's

clearly not sustainable and it's having consequences on us in all these ways but at the same time we exist in a world that is i mean it's literally speeding up apparently time is actually speeding up and to keep up with the consumeristic capitalistic world we're occupying it feels at odds to slow down but yet that's what I feel I want to do a lot of the time yeah how do you balance that often on days where I'm working with people or on location or shooting I and I can't have my nap I just try and get away from people and walk around sometimes there's a tree sometimes I walk up and down in the loo corridor but I think having if you can grab wherever you can grab five minutes is so important isn't it just

if you can grab, wherever you can grab five minutes is so important, isn't it? Just not be on. I mean, it's interesting. I've been exploring my masks, you know, who is the real me, which masks are sort of self-preservation, you know, like my working mask versus my friend mask, family mask, all of these things and where they intersect and but I think it's unrealistic to ever be completely yourself as much as I you know I'm committed to being as honest as I can on your podcast because that's what it's all about we're not always honest with ourselves even when we're on the loo are we by ourselves or are we we're always We're always filtering, tweaking slightly. Yeah. And I can't remember what I was saying, but, oh yeah, being away from people is so important. And I think that's one thing I learned over the lockdowns is how much I crave and need to be away from people.

Even you and I aren't in the same room now, and I'm loving chatting to you. I'll be tired after this yeah do you get tired of your podcast I do it it can drain me sometimes quite a lot because it's like you say it's being on and I've noticed also another thing since coming out of the pandemic is that I I struggle to be in big social environments you know for very long I went to a festival the other day and yeah I felt really trapped really panicky I just wanted to take myself off and be on my own but didn't quite know how to communicate that to the people I was with so I'd say at heart I'm an introvert I'm also a projector in human design do you know what human design you are no no tell me because also project projectors do and when I found this outside that

makes so much sense they need quite a lot of time on their own because they pick up other people's energy and they find it hard to be able to know what's theirs and what someone else's also I have a Pisces moon which means that I kind of merge with other people's feelings too and you you just mentioned something that I find so interesting this idea of masks and the masks we wear because when I was in my early 20s I think I very much was wearing all these masks as a sort of as like you say a self-preservation a protective thing because somewhere in my younger years I viewed the world as not safe to be who I really was. And so I was like, okay, through observing how other people interacted and what they did and

what they wore and what they said, I thought, okay, if I become like that, if I mold myself to these people, perhaps I'll feel like I belong. And so I'd say for the majority of my 20s, I ended up shapeshifting. And that then meant that I was a different version of me anywhere I went. And that did make me feel a false sense of belonging for a little bit until I completely lost myself in the process. And that was during my Saturn return where I just was like, I have no idea who I am. I've completely abandoned who I am so many times that it feels lost. Yeah. I think about four years ago, I went on this retreat, which sadly no longer exists, called the Bridge Retreat.

Have you ever heard of it? I've heard of it. Oh, Kagi, I wish you and everyone listening could have gone on it. Why did it close it closed well i went on the last but one before the pandemic it closed because it wasn't i think one of the reasons i think wasn't sustainable during the pandemic and it sort of shape-shifted to different workshops so since then they've done weekend workshops online courses there's one called deepening into life and the co-founder Donna Lancaster has written a book called The Bridge, which has just come out. And I think you'd love

each other, you two. So I went on this retreat, and it's primarily a grief retreat. And she and her co-founder were lead facilitators of the Hoffman Process retreat, which I know loads of people have been on. And my father passed away coming up to nine years now, but I hadn't, I didn't feel that the therapy that I was in at the time, I don't know whether I was resisting it. It wasn't the right therapy. It was just talking therapy, not just, it was, it was great for many things, but something shut down. And I remember saying to people, does anyone know anywhere I could go and cry and wail and hit things? I felt like I needed to be an animal.

I would only tell very close people this because obviously it's a different world now from four years ago. You just didn't really, you know, do you think your podcast would have existed and been so popular four years ago? No, no way. We started off, didn't we, our moon mist and together and all the way you know so I was like oh does anyone know I can go and cry and punch stuff and scream and wail and um I went and then I realized that I could do some one-on-ones with Donna anyway she introduced the idea of masks to me and I remember after I can't remember how long but I remember after, I can't remember how long, but I remember after a while, we started a Zoom session online during the pandemic. And she said to me, I can see you.

She's really cheeky. And I was like, yeah, no, I can see you too. And I can hear you. You know, like when you check your mind. I can see you too. She's like, no, no, I can see you. She's like, I can see you now for the first time. You're not masking with me and

it's so funny isn't it this idea and I think a lot of people who do and don't see therapists what what do you really tell and not tell your therapist you know you mask without realizing and so she said to me this is the first time the the layers of the onion are coming off I can see you I can feel you you're not pretending to be in a good mood you're not even smiling at me or asking me how I am I can just properly see you because I think I would bounce into therapy like hi how are you thank you so much for seeing me na na na good girl like I would just role play for like 15 minutes of the hour until I would start allowing myself to enjoy

and be in my therapy session. What do you think shifted then? I think she, because she is just incredible, I think she just constantly reminding me I could be myself and I could be safe in our sessions and that she wouldn't judge me. I didn't need to be anything for her. I didn't need to be anything for her I didn't need to please her nothing I could do would displease or please her I guess her process was working

I understand what you're saying in terms of you know talk therapy is fantastic and can do wonderful things for lots of people but sometimes it gets stored in the body and like you say if you are still operating from that having to be a certain person when you walk in the room you know someone very close to me said that they had therapy for 10 years and never talked about the thing that they actually went for which I think is really common I actually have done that myself I'm like actually I went for something specific and I haven't actually mentioned it. It's been a couple of months. Or, you know, wanting to come across in a certain way, because essentially it's still a stranger. And I think a huge element there is trust, is feeling safe with the person that

is holding space for you, essentially essentially so that you can come undone and we're not really programmed to do that or conditioned to do that and also I remember I think I've really enjoyed zoom therapy because I've seen therapists in various parts of London as I've grown up in London moving to you know Camden Brixton so on I've it's changed and I would remember how I would cancel rearrange or just not really be present in therapy because I knew that in oh in 10 minutes I'm going to get spat out onto the street and have to get on the tube and be there in my stuff whereas I think that um zoom therapy and especially retreats, you've got the time to bed in and poke away at the painful stuff. Another amazing thing that Donna, three things I think that she's really taught me is one rituals for positive and so, you know, so-called negative experiences.

I'll come back to that. and really forgiving she talks about don't do neck up forgiveness which is just you know saying oh I've forgiven them I've really forgiven them now for like full full tip to toe forgiveness and what's the third thing oh just just that I'm perfectly imperfect she just says that all the time you're perfectly imperfect or you know I'll go off on a story and I did this and they did this and then that meant this and they probably will never work with me again and uh my books won't sell she's like and because you've spoken quite a lot about perfectionism yeah is it something that you struggle with yes and I think that sort of comes back to what we kicked off with together which is I was always praised when I was good and perfect

and did really well I was head girl and I was I I I didn't want to be the best at things say you know a school test a spelling test I didn't want to be the best for a sense of achievement but I I just relished the praise just so wanted you know like I remember if someone said to me oh my mum really likes you you're her favourite you know I'd be like oh my god that's the best thing ever and that's sad isn't it I mean it's really sad but it's not I totally understand it but how do you find it working for yourself because you have to you don't have necessarily that praise you almost have to give yourself that praise and that's something I'm very similar I struggle with perfectionism and I abandon things because of my perfectionism, because I think that they're not good enough or they're going to be criticized. And so I'd rather

not share them with the world. And then also in terms of, it's an interesting one because on one hand, I reject authority and I don't like being told what to do but on the other side I really live for being praised and so when I don't have anyone that is kind of feeding back positive enforcement to me and I'm not giving it to myself I then sort of get in this space of I don't know if I'm doing anything right well you know my boyfriend jokes and he's like you love feedback I mean I'm like any feedback did I do all right did I do great did I this you know and I obviously want the good feedback I pretend that I want all constructive but really I want the good feedback I want you know everyone to tell me it's okay and I think the problem with that is is sort of what you're asking is is that

if you're relying on everyone else telling you you're okay you're not actually working if you you're proud of yourself or if you did a good job going back to Donna because this is a Donna appreciation podcast she will often say to me when I'm like oh I want to start this and but I'm scared a bit like you said or you know I'm already halfway through this and that's that's tiring And, you know, I'm still working out. She'll say, you know, it's great to have growth opportunities and challenge yourself. She's like, but you don't need to have a million growth opportunities. You don't need to put yourself out there. You know, that whole, like, feel the fear and do it anyway, which I used to, you know, maybe if you'd asked me five years ago, I would have, you'd said, what's your mantra? And might've said that. And now I'm like, I don't need to all the time.

I don't need to feel the fear every day. Yeah, not all the time. I did it on Monday. I'm all right for the rest of the week. So in fact, about 40 minutes before we started, there was a project that I was getting ready to kick off the next stage of it. And the first stage had been really, really great. And I'd enjoyed it. And we were we I was looking at my diary for the rest of the month over, you know, trying to actually this is a big thing that I've

done last few years is trying to actually cancel and cut out and head girl people pleasing perfectionist me would have died rather than cancel on someone and now I do it and I try not to do it I try and actually preempt that my month's getting too full but I looked at it and I thought we're supposed to be having a catch-up about this next stage and not only do I really need to not have a catch-up that day um I also just don't feel ready for this project as excited as I am as good as I think it could be, as much as I'd enjoy it, as valuable as I think it would be for me and others,

I actually don't have the bandwidth, the bandwidth, the brain width, the heart width, the energy. I'm not going to be able to have a nap for six months if I sign up to this. And how do I want to feel? And can it wait? And I think that's a big thing. I think my perfectionist stuff,

it makes me rush, circling right back to slow or go. I'm like, oh my gosh, why am I running out of time? I think that's another thing I've worked on a lot in therapy is what's the rush. And you're 33, I'm 36 almost 37 I feel like we're the same generation where it was very rising stars under 30 or you know teenagers that have made their first billion whatever it was very much praised by what you'd got done young right yeah and it's one of those things that you don't realize how much that's impacted the way that you operate and it's something I've been writing about this sort of especially I'd say for women because there's other expectations around what we're supposed to have done

in our 30s or be doing and it feels unmanageable to do all those things but like for me I kind of only felt like I found my rhythm in something after 30 and now I'm 33 I'm like okay so I have and it's not even what I really think but it's what I felt like I picked up through you know the media various things that I have to cram so much into such a short space of time because my shelf life is going to run out in one of these areas and so at the moment I'm doing exactly what you've just said where I've taken on probably more than I can handle because I feel like I need to get them all done by this in this time period because then I have to go and do like other things that are expected of me who's decided

our expiry date it's so funny I just had this vision when you said I just imagined you being packaged up on a supermarket shelf that's exactly it and that's that's how I wrote about it was like this idea that we are on a shelf and that we have an expiry date and that somewhere in our 30s it runs out and like everything past then is a bonus and if you actually dissect that it's insane because you only truly know yourself I believe when you're in when you're 30 and like throughout that time is when you actually start to really appreciate and know who you are and dismantle some of these things but simultaneously you're being fed the idea that you know time is running out that the window of opportunity is closing before your very eyes

especially in industries that you know you or I are in like for me I was in the music industry the tv that's all sort of you know they I think it's because people like to manufacture people and because when people are younger they're more malleable whereas when people are in their 30s you can't really tell a 30 year old who to be no not as easily I remember I was so magazine obsessed when I was younger I you know would read everything constantly wanting to be grown up and well you know when I have my own flat when I'm making cocktails for my lover you know, would read everything, constantly wanting to be grown up. And, you know, when I have my own flat, when I'm making cocktails for my lover, you know, when I have my dinner party, when I have my lovely handbag and high heels. And I remember reading articles, you know,

just like the red magazines, you know, aimed at 30 plus, and I they would say these things, they would say, when I hit 30, shit just started to make sense. Or when I turned 40, it was... And I would be like, nah, they're just saying that to make themselves feel better. And now I get it. And I'm, as I say, almost 37. And then again, it's really interesting to chat with you now because traditionally historically I always struggle around now when the month of my birthday I I used to last year I think was the first birthday I think that I didn't cry from a lot of the day do you cry on your birthday do you find it quite overwhelming I don't but I know that so many people do and I think so many people listening that will resonate

and like I've also got guy friends that have told me that they've cried on on their birthday but I felt like our around 30 was when you know approaching my 30th I was freaking out and I felt like I hadn't achieved any of the things I was supposed to felt like everyone was sent the sort of handbook of life and mine had got lost in the post you're some chapters missing some pages yeah exactly and then I guess once I started to really deep dive into this space and my own sort of spirituality and unpicking a lot of those beliefs um then things really started to change and then I was like I'm actually going to be so grateful for every year that I have on this planet and like turning 33 I felt so happy to be another year older and like but I get loads of messages from young women that say, oh, I'm 28 and I'm single and I'm scared. I'm like, what? You know,

this is just not how it should be. Yeah. I had a lot of long-term relationships and I even joked to my boyfriend now, I wish I'd had so much more sex, so much more dating, so many more adventures and fun, but I was scared. I bought into that whole thing. And I wanted every boyfriend from age 16 onwards to be the one that I settled down with. And I just determined when I have my kids to not, and my God kids to not show them that they don't, I don't think they will be because I don't think the generations under us are of that ilk but when I really think back and this is another thing that I if anyone's not done it before I'm sure you've done it Kagi is I've I've got a big piece of paper and I put the timeline of my life and I put yeah the significant moments breakups

I had a major wobble that I now think was a real crisis, but no one identified it at when I was about 16, 17, which I think also stopped me from the medical side of things. I think I just had this massive crisis of confidence. And I look back now and I've sort of gone from relationship to relationship from 16. I've been with my boyfriend for eight years. Every relationship was just one into the other and they were all like four years that's not enough time for fun when you do the timeline do you have questions that you ask yourself around it yeah I mean I think it's right here not gonna get it out but get it out who told you the timeline exercise was that oh my god I don't want to show it but there it is oh my god can you can you what so you've written a timeline of all the sort of really significant I'm just reading

something I wrote trying to hear truth to a trance why me it's not fair I'm actually my writing is so bad uh I've written help me okay this is so interesting give a look at yours I'll tell you I'll tell you the story behind my timeline which was and this is going to be super helpful for everyone listening because it was one of those aha moments in my journey which completely transformed my perspective on things I was at a retreat I was 29 I was kind of at a bit of a rock bottom I'd just come back from LA and I didn't really know what I was doing I was pursuing music but it just wasn't quite connecting and someone invited me to someone that I knew from the past invited me to this retreat and then I ended up going and I sort of thought it would be more like a bougie retreat with you know green juice and a bit of yoga and it was not it

was a full-on experience and initially I tried to sort of leave and I got caught trying to leave and she was my friend was like look just stay the day and you know see what happens and I went on to have one of the most transformational experiences and we did various exercises and practices along throughout this week and one of them was a timeline exercise and we were doing two days of silence we did two days of silence and then we had to do this time around exercise and we were only allowed to go and speak if we had a question related to the exercise and anyway as I was doing this timeline I was writing down the people writing down the experiences and then we had a list of questions that we had to answer around it and as I was going through the questions and this is how why it's funny that you just mentioned what you mentioned off your timeline because one of the questions was what role did I play in this and I didn't

understand the question so I went over and I said I don't understand this question and they were like what role did you play in these situations and I was like I didn't play a role and then they all happened to me and I did could not actually comprehend at the time that I was participating in these experiences, in these patterns, in these relationships, in what went wrong. I was so in a victim mentality that I couldn't see past that.

And once that clicked and I realized that, I was like, holy shit shit I've been participating in all of this which of course there's a a grief in that and a sadness when you feel that awareness but simultaneously a victory in the knowing that actually if you take responsibility for that then you become the master of things going forward. And that you are the person that's actually creating your reality. Yeah, it's not happening to you. Yeah. Oh, how thank you for sharing that. Because that's amazing. And I'm so glad that you also didn't realize because I, I too, when someone says says to you and this is one of the multiple incredible things that therapists do and when therapists point or facilitators point out to you

something that you hadn't it had never occurred to you and it's quite shocking and as you said grief and you're like hang on has history just rewritten itself it's you need someone around you to help you work that out and and I agree when I'm saying the word retreat there was no green juices on my retreat there was a bit of herbal tea but apart from that it was full-on group therapy which I didn't really know when I signed up for it which meant you had to not you'd expose yourself in front of other people and and that was a big lesson in safety for me but you know what I'm just looking in my room right now but I've got some things written up I've got this octopus painting it's a David Shrigley print and it says everyone must

dance on it and that's something I really learned is when I'm feeling very high energy because you know I really have suffered and do suffer from anxiety. So sometimes when I'm excited, my body's just clenched, I can feel my stomach drop, I can feel my bowels just go, and so I try and dance out or shake out. Have you ever done shaking? I have. And actually, it's something that I know I need, I've got out of is free movement. And I definitely think that my anxiety is probably bad because of yeah what you've just described I mean how does it manifest for you what does it look like when you're experiencing bouts of anxiety so as an example I've got to do Sunday morning TV this weekend and I haven't done it for a while and so I've done everything I can to be really open about

which bits make me anxious so cooking a recipe from scratch on tv is makes me anxious beyond belief I mean there's some tv cookery shows that I can't even listen to the theme tune because I start to feel sick I can't even watch most cookery shows because I just feel so anxious being on TV. Oh, really? Even this, I felt actually really good because I allowed myself time before we started. And then, of course, my computer didn't work, which sent me off into a frenzy. But you're so nice about it. So I sort of really am quite honest now with the people I work with.

They know what makes me feel calm and confident and what doesn't. And I have written in my diary, so I'm going on Sunday morning, and I know old me would have, if I wasn't careful, spent this entire week, and especially Friday and Saturday, building up the anxiety in almost a familiar, don't want it but safe in it way. And so I've written myself, this is my Virgo side, a little guide to the weekend. So I know on Saturday, I'm not going to be able to relax. There's no point me getting a massage or seeing my friends, I just won't be present. So what I'm going to do is have a three hour walk to exhaust myself like a small child or a dog. I'm going to have my nap. On Friday, I'm going to have everything packed a three hour walk to exhaust myself like a small child or a dog. I'm going to

have my nap on Friday. I'm going to have everything packed and ready to go. I'm going to shake as much as I can. I'm going to take myself to the loo before I go on TV on Sunday morning and shake. So I've got like a kind of like a kind of pregame ritual. And then even more importantly, afterwards, I like to go to acupuncture every Sunday. So afterwards, I'm going to go to acupuncture. But before I go to acupuncture, because I know I can't go from live TV to acupuncture, I'm going to go for a walk, which will help me calm down, release. I'm going to eat some great food and wind myself down.

Then I'm going to turn off my phone. and wind myself down then I'm going to turn off my phone well I'm going to keep it on so I can listen to some lovely like whales or some you know rain rain water in the jungle and then I'm going to do my acupuncture and then I'm just going to do nothing and I know that that's relatively easy because I know I don't have kids and I don't have people depending on me on Sunday afternoon but I know in order to do something like that which I don't have kids and I don't have people depending on me on Sunday afternoon but I know in order to do something like that which I don't do often which is a great opportunity for me work-wise to talk about my book and and talk about you know all the things that I care about like food waste and so on I know that I just have to do these things in the lead up and then and

then afterwards to calm myself and and I deserve you know like really this is the big thing like I deserve that I deserve to the fact that I acknowledge what can't happen and what is unrealistic to happen and now know myself better that I know that there's certain things that will be good for me I'll probably do quite a lot of like pottering and like washing on Saturday because I know it's a way to calm me while also keeping me busy I think it's so important to give yourself permission to structure things like that you know I think a lot of people just think oh well I don't know and just end up not creating that space and just sort of spinning out um I I get really my my anxiety has been bad recently and I think a part of that is actually not structuring things but the thing

that I get most anxiety about similar to you but for me is performing so whenever I've been performing music it is oh my god for like the whole week, if not weeks before, I am a complete mess. And then I'm up there and I love it. And then I come down and it's that part when you come down that you need to know the things that ground you. Because you see it with people that are like rock stars and stuff and you get a high when you're performing or on tv or whatever it might be and then people start chasing that high when they get off the stage because they're like i love that i want more of it where can we go find more of it and that's how things can spiral so instead it's like you need to do the things that re-ground you and like earthy things so that then you can i guess to yours, it's like time alone, walks, switching off my phone.

One of my favorite things to do is literally just lie on the sofa and listen to beautiful chorus and just light some incense and a candle and stuff. that's helpful for people listening especially you know because we all experience it in different ways whether that's someone going and doing a presentation and they get really nervous about public speaking also I think a useful tool is visualizing how it's going to go positively you know so and also imagining how good you're going to feel afterwards and focusing on that rather than catastrophizing on everything that could go wrong. The funny thing is right. What could go wrong is such an interesting question. What is the worst thing that could go wrong for your performance? Me chopping on TV, someone's presentation. I mean,

obviously we could lose our jobs, which would be mine. Mine is often something like, I'm so scared I'm going to get diarrhea on live TV and chop my finger off all at the same time. I was going to say, I think the worst thing would be to chop your finger off. And swear. One that is unlikely, but what's the worst thing that can happen? They won't invite me back again.

What would be your worst thing that can happen? They won't invite me back again. What would be your worst thing that could happen? Forget the words? I think for me, it's the fear of judgment. Do you make eye contact when you're performing? Yeah, sometimes. I mean, I haven't in ages. And it's something that I feel like I know. It kind of goes back to what we mentioned at the beginning of that,

the balance between doing the things that scare you because I definitely do think that actually I perhaps got two in my comfort zone and oddly that is giving me anxiety I'm like I can't win because I sort of like half of me really loves being homely, needs my own space, and then half loves to perform and push myself in that capacity. So I'm trying to get the balance of that right. It's funny, isn't it? Because I bet all of us that love you would be like, you're so good at, you know, so tempting to say to you, even me now is, you're so good at it. You should do that. We love you. We love seeing you perform. But then it's an interesting one, because just because we're good at something, does that mean we should do that we we love you we love seeing you perform but then it's an interesting one because just because we're good at something does that mean we should do it loads it's an interesting one isn't it because I'm like oh when I sleep and I eat well I feel good so I'll do more

of it but then there's certain things it's like just because we're good at it so some people might say to me you're good at this and I'll think whatever I think but I don't know why I should always have to do that and I I think it's interesting when I'm at 36 I think I'll always be in food and I'm really interested in sustainability and food and mental health but I don't know if I'll always be giving out my recipes on Instagram writing cookbooks I'm so excited to see where it might go next yeah and that it can pivot it can pivot whereas my friends will say what's your next cookbook and what are you doing next on Instagram and you're really good at it why aren't you doing it and that's not a comfort zone thing that's more

of a I just I want I want to see I want to see well also people are always going to have perceptions of us and it goes back to that thing of masks of the person you are with your family with your friends like you mentioned I had it recently with my family where they were like you know a lot of them will say you should you should be a presenter you'd be such a good presenter and in a way I'm like I kind of I kind of am a presenter because I'm doing my podcast but I think that they have a vision of me in this sort of more commercial space and I it's interesting after those conversations I sort of think oh is that what I should be doing I think so many people are doing what they think they should be doing like you say because they might be good at it or because you know their family tells them that that's what they should be doing because we don't really know how to or like encourage each other to listen to like that

quiet voice that's like oh but I really want to be doing this this is what lights me up I guess the question that we all have to ask ourselves it's like how do we feel after that thing because someone said to me once the opposite of love isn't hate it's indifference and by that they meant if you the strong negative feeling you have towards or I say negative but the strong reaction you have or anxiety you have towards going on tv or the strong reaction I have around performing used to make me think well therefore I must hate it because I'm having this anxiety and that's a negative thing but actually the opposite of loving something is indifferent it's when you're just like oh okay I don't really that doesn't really light me up but whatever actually if you unpick

that response you're having it might be because it's the thing that you really need to be doing more of because it's outside your comfort zone it's just your your ego or your protective systems saying oh no we don't know if that's safe so we're just gonna like freak out and hope you don't do it because it's unfamiliar it's unknown and we don't know what that means and unfortunately the only way that we really grow is by pushing that a little bit yeah agree I've got a right old hyper vigilant protective system I probably should give her a name and ask her to chill out a little bit or have a day off in what ways does she do you think protect you when it's counterintuitive to sort of what you, what would make you grow? She, I'm really thinking of her as a she now.

She, I don't, she's so, this sort of hypervigilance protective is so part of me that I actually find it hard to work out which bits is it and which bits is me. And that's something I work on all the time. I don't really know the answer to your question I'm I'm gonna have to sort of have my nap on and think about that one because I really don't know how to separate her you know I sometimes I think I've got a grip grip on it and I think that's what's quite interesting is sometimes I think like in a way like an addiction sometimes you are or any new pattern you're trying to change or new habit trying to adopt a new one or or let go of an old one that you don't want so much there's moments where I just feel overwhelmed with my hyper vigilance

and feeling unsafe and a bit like I talked about before I just I sort of wallow in it a little bit and it just feels safer to feel unsafe and on those days I try and not beat myself up and think I've gone steps back I just think well that is just old patterns that I've had to live with for so long and I think about my three-year-old little self um and what she absorbed and why she feels unsafe. And I just think, okay, well, today's not the day for those big moves. Don't push it. Don't push it. Whereas, you know, I think about Sunday and I'm like, what's the worst that could happen?

You're so right. How am I going to feel afterwards? I feel such a sense of achievement. I know I'll enjoy it, a bit like you and so right. How am I going to feel afterwards? I feel such a sense of achievement. I know I'll enjoy it a bit like you and you're performing. And I'll say on top of that, I'm proud of myself for doing the work and getting myself to an open space where I can create the rituals for before and after. I'm really proud of myself for that. I think that's a really important thing that I've learned in therapy is to be like, well done me. and I'm proud of myself for that I was that took me a lot of years to get to that point what's giving yourself the praise isn't it yeah it's so key what's that song fat boy certain praise you praise you praise you like I should is that I'm

so bad at lyrics do you know it that's the next yeah yeah of course I thought I was singing it so badly that you couldn't get the song I know the song and in terms of the um the food and mood connection how would you say because that's something sometimes I think about in terms of my mental health my anxiety sometimes even my tiredness how have you sort of figured that that impacts you and what adjustments have you made and how individual is it well it's mega individual but at the same time I've really realized that on a sort of anecdotal level that we are so the same and that we all love someone cooking for us especially when there's someone we care about. And we all gravitate, whether it's a sort of a gloomy end of summer day today, isn't it? But whether it's a

really boiling hot day or a chilly, chill to the bone day, we all gravitate towards comforting bowl food. So that happens to be the way that I cook and share recipes and that's how I started actually I don't know if you know I started by cooking for bands 12 years ago and I used to deliver it was called like soup service I used to deliver sometimes fresh depending on where they were but a lot of the time frozen pots of food you have like lovely dals we'd have like really lovely chicken and ginger soups that was my mum's Filipino recipe my mum's from the Philippines my mouth's watering now lovely harissa chickpea and roast veggie stews all that lovely good stuff right and so I think that that is

that food and mood connection is really explored and I think it's easier to work it out I know a lot of athletes and people that are very in touch with their body might have figured it out sooner but I think as we're in this age perhaps that we know more about ourselves as we keep have said throughout this episode and therefore we connect more with how food makes us feel and I think it also obviously depends on how knackered we are how much sunlight we've got how we're being tested on a sensory level but two people I'd like to shout out one of them is Kimberly Wilson who I was telling you is her book's how to build a healthy brain and then the other is a woman called Dr Uma Naidoo and when I was researching my book

my book's called feel good and it's a cookbook and because I'm not a nutritionist or a brain health expert I wanted to weave in some of what I learned from then and something to just remember when you're doing your online shop Kagi or anyone listening or you're going into the shops if you can try and remember that in a dream world we would be eating 30 different plant-based foods so that's from your beans your lentils to your kales to your carrots peas avocados chickpeas but then I love this acronym is it an acronym yes I think it's an acronym brain foods right read it out here well actually I'll see if I can remember them brain foods b for berries and beans r for rainbow

food a antioxidant i includes protein whether that's plant-based or animal-based n for nuts f for fermented foods o for omega-3s the other o in foods is for oils d for dairy and S for spices. I remembered it. I love that. Brain foods, that's Dr Uma's acronym. And so when you're shopping or doing a gentle meal plan or picking recipes, I've got loads of free recipes on my website, is try and build in those ingredients into your week's brain foods. It's a really helpful, fun way of remembering and then of course don't beat yourself up if you don't but maybe then you go okay next week didn't have enough berries and nuts this week I'm just going to try and have some delicious baked oats with berries for my brekkie and I'll scatter some walnuts on there and some Brazil nuts good for my selenium lovely

I think that's so great because it's so easy for people to remember that. Yeah and we are you know I'm always conscious I don't know about you but as I get a bit older I think something I used to have a really good memory so I'm really keen to learn more about brain health and how to protect our mental health better. So key so key thank you so so much for joining me I love this conversation you too thank you so much I really love this conversation with Melissa because like I said at the beginning of the episode I like to unpack this sort of notion or idea that we have to have everything figured out or that life narrows at 30 whereas actually it's been my experience that it expands and that there isn't such a rush that you think there is it's also important to do the things

that scare you and to push your comfort zone because often we only truly know ourselves in our 30s and rather than feel like life is limited in some way or that we have to have figured it all out actually see that as an opportunity to go out and try new things for the first time rather than feel like life is limited in some way or that we have to have figured it all out, actually see that as an opportunity to go out and try new things for the first time. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Saturn Returns. If you found it useful, please follow us and write us a review on Apple Podcasts because that helps us get discovered by more like-minded people.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Saturn Returns. And remember, you're not alone. Goodbye.