Saturn Returns with Caggie - 7.10 The Courage to Create with Aime McNee

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

If you resonate with the struggles of procrastination, perfectionism, imposter syndrome or burnout then this conversation will be extremely beneficial. Caggie is joined by Aime McNee, a creative coach and fiction author. In this episode they explore the beauty and vulnerability of ‘the creative’; the loneliness of committing to creativity, the shame and comparison creatives often face when straying away from the conventional 9-5 career and the liberation of choosing ourselves and our own path. Aime and Caggie discuss the many ways we often grapple with the dialogue of our inner critic and unpack the topic of ego, how individuals will often unknowingly cultivate a fear of success which is just as persuasive as our fear of failure.  Even if you are not creative in your career, many of us have that inner critic which makes us doubt ourselves and stops us from going after our aspirations and goals. Aime shares her own experience with this and the tools she utilises to unlock the power to silence that voice in our head that says we are not worthy. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I am joined by Amy McNee. I discovered Amy on Instagram through my wonderful friend Africa Brooke and it kind of arrived or Amy's work arrived at a time in my life where to kind of add a bit more of a personal take I have been doing a creative project that I haven't been really speaking about it's a music project which might surprise many of you and I've always really struggled with putting myself out there in that aspect of sharing myself and that sort of having that creative expression. And so when I discovered Amy's work, I was instantly drawn to it. Now, Amy is a fiction author. She is also a creative coach and she puts a lot of

stuff out on Instagram that really speaks to the creative and the creative process about how we struggle with things and these internal dialogues that go on. So when I spoke to her, it was a bit like, as often these episodes are, a bit of a therapy session because it was exactly what I needed. She called me out on a lot of stuff. So my point is the importance of the creative self I've realized is so intertwined with our spiritual practice. I almost view these things as one of the same. It's also my belief that we all have creativity. And when we're young, when we're children, we are very free in our expression of that. We don't fear judgment or ridicule. We just are. We're just playful. We're creative. We're using our imagination

all the time. And then it kind of gets beaten out of us as we go into school and a more linear, traditional way of thinking. And it's more academic. And unless it actually becomes what we do in our career, we abandon all these aspects of ourself. And I believe that it's in this process that we feel a lack of connection to ourselves and that that is the gateway for our spiritual path. So if you are feeling like something's missing, I would encourage you to obviously listen to this episode and then ask yourself what aspects of yourself creatively have you been neglecting and is there something that you can do about that in this episode we touch on some big themes that I think a lot of you will relate to and they really hit me and that is procrastination perfectionism imposter syndrome and burnout and I admit that I oscillate between all of those things but Amy really unpacks what's

underneath it and it's so fascinating the way she explains it. I hope you enjoy this fantastic episode with Amy and that it ignites something in you to step out of your comfort zone and be bold enough to embrace your creative path. Amy, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you so much, Kagi. Thank you for having me. Are you joining us from Australia? I am. Some of my last days here in Sydney, Australia. And then joining us from Australia? I am. Some of my last days here in Sydney, Australia. And then I'm coming over to join you.

For good? For, we've said like a couple of years. We'll see. Oh, wow. What made you move to Australia? So I've got a funny little life popping around the planet. My parents are just very spontaneous, beautiful adventurers. And so when I was 16, they decided that we would go to Australia and that we would finish my

schooling here. And so I did, and then I met my husband and now I kind of want to, I want to go back. And because of the beautiful work that I do as an artist, I can work from wherever I want. And so, yeah, I'm going to go have like a country life where I write in my cottage for a little bit. I love that. I've got to say though, I've always maintained my spirit home is Australia and Sydney. I have such a strong connection to it. I went when I was, I think I was 10 with my family. We went for a month and traveled around and I just fell in love with it. It was honestly like a soul connection. And so I've been many times and I would love to spend a bit more time there at some point, but it is just very, very far.

It is. It is so far. Yeah. I must say I feel very clingy to Australia and this land right now because I know I'm about to be taken from it. It is incredible. Like this is a beautiful place to live. I'm excited people are going to be over here. When do you move? Next week. Oh, wow.

Yeah. I know. We're in a transitional stage. And how old are you? I am 31. How old are you? I'm about to be 34 in a matter of days. Lovely.

What are you doing for it? Are you celebrating? I am. I'm one of those people that usually doesn't do anything. And then when the day comes around, I'm like, nobody loves me. So I'm actually forcing myself to do dinner. I'm not a very good organizer of things. In fact, like I'm pretty sure I've done what we said before we were recording,

which is I've telepathically invited lots of people. I'm not sure whether I actually have or told them what day it actually is happening on or where it is or anything like that. So, yeah. It's going to come together. You've given off birthday vibes. Like people can feel that you want them to attend somehow that's what I'm thinking I discovered your work on Instagram and I was it was through my friend Africa Brooke I love Africa and I just

was like it's just been very present in my own personal life and kind of viewing the world and people this kind of idea of creativity what it means the hurdles we face the imposter syndrome and you're like what you put out online and sort of working as a creativity coach which I would love to kind of understand more of what that entails I just wanted to speak to you about like the whole process of it all because I it's my belief that we all have our creative self but it often gets sort of abandoned or put to the side because it doesn't necessarily necessarily become our job or our career and often we we disregard that part of us which I think is actually a really it's like a spiritual practice as well creativity in in many ways it is it is

innate it is I think I truly believe it's what we are here to do and when we move away from that or we forget that that is what we're here to do it can feel like something very very holy and like important is missing yeah what has your process been like kind of getting into this work so I'm a fiction author by trade so I write historical fiction novels and I have for over a decade now. And as I have, you know, dared to tell stories, I was just like, holy fuck, this is, I'm sorry, I did not ask if I could swear. No, you can swear. Okay, great. I am so lonely. This is such a, when we, you know, committing to your creativity and deciding to create, it just, it reveals so much of our own insecurities, our own narratives

that have been holding us back. It reveals imposter syndrome. Like when we commit to creativity and when we realize that we're here to create, it also unveils a lot of our own pain and creativity forces us to look at some of our darkness. It also reveals a hell of a lot of our light, but I think it does reveal a lot of what is not working for us. And I felt incredibly lonely in this process of trying to make art and trying to be creative and trying to start a business. And I was like, I just, I need support. And so I feel like I kind of became the person that I desperately needed when I was at the beginning of this journey, which was someone to hold me and someone to see me and to someone to have conversations around what it means to be creative and what being creative brings up for most humans which is what I mean like literally

I cannot it brings up everything and so my job as a creative coach is to look at what the creative is moving through and what it is triggering like Like for me, and this is from the perspective of someone who wanted to be a full-time creative, it triggered a huge amount of shame in me because I thought that I wasn't trying to be a real adult. Like I thought I had failed at being an adult because I desperately wanted to be a creative. And, you know, I had very little money at the beginning of this journey. I was in a lot of debt. I was working in cafes, trying to pull together rent. And I was like, everyone else around me is doing the real adult thing. They're being responsible. They're getting real jobs. They're moving on with their lives and they're doing what's right. And I am here trying to tell stories and I'm delusional and I'm foolish.

And all of these narratives were coming up for me. And I just felt, and I still feel triggered sometimes. Sometimes it still comes up. these narratives take such a long time to deconstruct, but I felt like a child, like I was someone who just couldn't, couldn't properly become an adult because I was so in love with creativity and I refused to live a life that was devoid of it. And so that's my, a lot of my story and a lot of what creativity brought up for me. void of it and so that's my a lot of my story and a lot of what creativity brought out for me I can relate so deeply to that and it was it's it's interesting because the way you kind of put it into words it I also felt that sense that everyone was filing their life into some sort of meaning and like progressing and getting stable careers and you know getting houses and stuff and

I was just there chasing this I remember someone saying to me someone very close to me like stop with all these pie in the sky ideas I was like they're not by the sky but then I also for me I was like am I being delusional is creativity not really a proper thing to pursue and also we've fed this idea you know the struggling artists like and we're also creative people are given very little education on how to actually craft that into a business and not only that is there's a humongous industry or like all creative industries there's a lot of people that take advantage of the creative yeah something I want to get into because they're like okay there's a

lot of talent here that I can exploit that I can monetize so we'll sign them into something that they don't fully understand because they don't have any money to like put their project out into the world so we'll give them a little bit that they'll think's a huge amount on and then we'll sign them up for 10 years and they'll have no autonomy over what they're doing. And it's like, if you actually start unpacking a lot of those industries, it's really quite awful what happens. It's awful. We live in a world where the creative, and it's been like this for a long time, like the creative is just not respected, not given the credit. Like creatives give literally all the light to this world. We make such profound change. We create people's lives. We like decorate people's lives with so much magic. We help people

see themselves. We help people feel safe. Like creatives are here doing absolute most, the most generous and vulnerable thing that humans do. And we are constantly manipulated, undermined, not taken seriously, made to feel shame because we're being childlike, we're dreaming too big. Oh, you're not properly signed by the right people. Oh, you've got scarcity stories. There's so many narratives that are interwoven in our culture that are there to make creatives stay very, very small. And as I've realized this through my own journey and through seeing so many creatives come across so many roadblocks that are keeping them small, that are keeping them manipulated, that are keeping them in systems, that are keeping them scared and shy and small. Like I feel like I've kind of come into a work where I'm writing about and speaking about how creatives are here to rebel against these systems and they're here to take up space and they're here to make a very very new space and system for creatives because we can't keep going like this we have to self

coronate we have to take power we have to take up space without having to negotiate and without having to make ourselves fit into shapes that that we aren't and also that's happening at a time where things are more accessible there is another road that we can go down and I think people are waking up to that do you think that there's what is the intention you think behind if there is one behind keeping creatives kind of small yeah it's a really interesting thing um and I think about this a lot like why we're the best like we are here doing such incredible stuff like why keep us small and I think um if you look at like I mean you could get really nitty-gritty into it like the industrialist kind of world that we've lived in with like the nine to five like corporate stuff

like keeping people in the you know keeping people in the, you know, keeping people in systems. So, you know, you go into a job, you stay in that job for a certain amount of time. There are levels that you can go up, but you can't kind of deviate from that system. Whereas the creative goes a whole new route and takes up space in their own way. And I feel like rebels against the industrialist and some argue even like that capitalist way of system that we're living in. We're doing something different. We're not way of system that we're living in. We're doing something different. We're not playing the rules that we've been told. I mean, you think about how much shame creatives feel for wanting to make art and for wanting to do something different. Like there's clearly narratives here that are being fed to us that

are saying, don't step out of line. Like, why can't you just do what the other adults are doing? And it's interesting that we threaten people in such a way. What do you think? Like, why can't you just do what the other adults are doing? And it's interesting that we threaten people in such a way. What do you think? Like, why do you think we threaten them? I don't know. It's just coming to my awareness fully because I think as a, you know, my whole life, I've always been a very creative person in various mediums and the pain that I've experienced because of that because I think also in twofold like one creative people tend to be very sensitive and you know they're quite

vulnerable to the world in a way because they're experiencing everything on a very deep level but that's the beauty is they can alchemize that and put it into something beautiful and kind of transmute it but the the struggle I felt to put stuff out into the world to have the courage I would say that kind of stems from the fact that I wasn't brought up in a creative fact like my family's not very creative so for me it always felt like that made me the black sheep and I kind of kept in like I always kept that side of myself quite hidden because I was like it was so innate but it wasn't it wasn't pulled out of me it wasn't drawn out it wasn't like you know let's all kind of sit around the fire and sing that's but I yearned for that and so I kept that part of me very very private to the extent where I wasn't able to sing in front of anyone I wrote poetry my

whole life but I never never shared it with anyone I still very rarely do because it was like my most vulnerable part of myself so that was more like on a personal level, but now like moving through the world and see and being able to put things out, but seeing the sort of challenges and the roadblocks along the way that are both sort of internal and external. I think that it's just, you know, like you say, these systems that are around profit and people performing in a certain way and staying in line means that it's not, it's not beneficial to those systems to empower the individual. But I do feel that that's shifting because, you know, things being more accessible, you can actually create your own community and bring something directly to them. So I wanted to talk to you about that, about like

this process of self-publishing, what has that whole experience been like? Because, you know, I know for many authors or writers, it's like, and same for the music industry, it's like when you're signed, you're accepted and you've made it. And that is the biggest misconception because I know so many artists that got signed and then got shelved and never put out music. They got in horrible deals and it was just a mess. But then the sort of idea of self-releasing or self-publishing gets kind of shunned as like, oh, well, you haven't really been. You haven't really done it. Yeah. And what's that about? My gosh, it's so interesting. I mean,

I mean, there's so much to dive into here. This is a really big topic and we have to talk about it because as you said, like the system is changing and these stories are slowly, but surely dying. We have to awaken to the fact that we've been sold a narrative that says, um, artists will only make it if they are chosen. We have to have external validation first in order for us to thrive. We have to be picked by somebody else in order to get permission to take up space. And creatives who self-give permission and just take up space without permission, they're not legitimate. They haven't been picked. And we're not to take them as seriously. And that's still very much part of the stories that we have today. I I am regularly taken, not taken seriously because I'm self-published.

No matter how well my self-published books do, no matter how incredible the community I've created is, there's still that really strong narrative of you have to be picked. But for me, literally the most empowering thing I've ever done is chosen myself. And I think choosing myself before anybody else could choose me has paved the way for an incredible creative career for me. I had to pick me before anybody else could choose me has paved the way for an incredible creative career for me I had to pick me before anyone else could pick me and my validation came before anyone else's but what does that mean to you when you say I had to pick me like what does that actually mean in a spiritual internal sense but also like how that manifested in what you did, what actions you took?

Yeah. I mean, in a very practical sense, I chose to self-publish and, you know, I applied to gatekeepers and I had been in negotiations with gatekeepers and I'd been continually rejected by gatekeepers. And I kept, you know, I was growing an incredible community online and I kept being like told by, you know, family well by my partner maybe you should self-publish you have an audience here that you could publish too and I was like no that's not legit no I can't do that I shat on it for so many years like I hated it I was like shut and it made me really angry I was like why won't someone just see me I think the pain of the creative so often is I want to be understood I want to be seen can someone please just fucking see me. And I think the pain of the creative so often is I want to be understood. I want to be seen. Can someone please just fucking see me and understand me? Like I have something incredible

to give. And when most creatives were in this cycle of rejection over and over again, because we're told this is the only path to get success, to be witnessed, to be understood, we have to be picked in order to be understood. But I think in a way I was rejecting myself every single time I chose not to self-publish. I was not understanding myself. I was not seeing myself every time I chose not to self-publish. And so I spiraled into this incredibly depressed, um, and I was already really struggling with my mental health. Um, like I was, I wasn't giving myself the credit I deserved and nor was anybody else. And I hit a point where I was like, well, if I'm not going to pick me, why would anyone else pick me? Like I have to back myself. I do see myself. I see my worth. I know I'm a fucking fantastic storyteller. And so, you know,

picking myself, I call it like coronating myself. I chose to self-publish my books and it came with a huge amount of narratives that were very challenging for me to negotiate, but I did choose myself. And in a smaller way, like I choose myself every single time I choose to show up and share something on social media. I choose myself right now as I choose to take up space and speak to you. Like we can choose ourselves in small ways each day, but the big one for me was publishing my first book and saying, well, I don't need you to pick me in order to take up space and thrive as an artist because this world is changing rapidly we are in a different culture and the gatekeeping systems need to start noticing that and they will

but it's taking their time not only notice but also like the the scaffolding of that is kind of disintegrating yeah good that you know there shouldn't be this access point. I kind of described it when I wrote my book, not in this context, it was more in the context of like, when I was trying to put out music and stuff. And I felt like I was waiting at the gates to be let into my fate, you know, and that there were these gatekeepers kind of saying we don't get it we don't see it and like you say just desperately wanting to be seen and often with creatives like so important to know that your vision is uniquely your own and then and when it hasn't been materialized yet don't be disheartened that someone else cannot see it like if someone else

is like I don't get it or that wouldn't work you need to do this we need to do that like no trust that your vision has chosen you but it's having that courage to actually put it out the world and back it because that's the thing is what I think a lot of creatives like they might put stuff out of it and they then don't know how to like sell it you know I I'm so many creatives I witness who are apologetically taking up space they're like I've got some new music and I'm so sorry to bother you with this piece like I don't want to take up too much space on your feed like I'm so sorry but I did make this would you like you don't have to would you I'm so sorry if you hate it and it's like and it's you know again and like I totally resonate with this because what you're doing is so fucking vulnerable to put yourself out there to put a little part of your soul out there in the form of your art

but it doesn't work and you deserve more and you're also going against a whole system so you're kind of you feel like you're speaking to this mountain of being like I built this little hill I know I love us I love what we're doing here because I think it is revolutionary I think when we pick ourselves and when we take up space and it doesn't mean you have to avoid gatekeepers. I think going gatekeeper routes is a very, it's still a way to go. I'm not judging it in any way, but I think the way we pick ourselves, whether that be self-publishing or even just taking up space on social media, I love us for doing that because we're reclaiming power, we're reclaiming agency, and we're picking ourselves and we're seeing ourselves.

And every time we do it, we're saying to ourselves, I have value, witness me, understand me. And we're trying to find that audience who can. And also when you do it, you, you sort of are the example for others to do. And that's a beautiful part. Like I always try and remind creatives of that. I'm like, when you show up, when you try to sell your art or when you just generously you know just share because you want to share you lead the way you you're leading a part of this revolution of art of creatives taking up space and and giving self-given permission how have you found it in terms of the process have you ever found it lonely because I know like creativity can be quite a lonely path and one of the advantages of having you know going a more traditional route let's say is you have

a team and more of a support system and you are doing it quite independently it's like you and the voices in your head and you have to be mindful to give yourself those acknowledgements and those moments and congratulate yourself on your achievement rather than just berating which is you know can be a constant yeah so what's happened to you um yeah so I this was my biggest excuse when people were like you should self-publish I was like well I want a team I want to be supported I want to be held and what I was saying was I want to be seen again like I just want to team. I want to be supported. I want to be held. And what I was saying was I want to be seen again. Like I just want to be seen. I want to be understood and I want to have a team that helps me. So that was my big excuse for a very long time. And I had

what I was ignoring. And I think a lot of the time that excuse was an excuse not to pick myself. Like I was afraid, I was upset that I hadn't been picked and I was afraid to pick myself because in reality, um, I had the means to get a team. And I think the reality is, is that it doesn't have to be a lonely process, like exclusively, like there are ways to get help and support in a very practical sense as you move through this process of self-anointing, self-choosing. Like I, you know, had an editor. I had someone who helped me do all the boring crap of like figuring out my books. Like I, you know, had an editor. I had someone who helped me do all the boring crap of like figuring out my books. Like I co-collaborated with, you know, a book cover designer. Like there

were so many people on this journey with me who supported me and helped me. We do not have to do this alone. And choosing to go alone doesn't mean that you are on your own and we deserve support teams. And this comes with, you know, an element of, of financial privilege because I had money to invest in my team, but there were some things that I did that were, that weren't financially expensive for me. And I chose to do it because I knew I deserved my, my book deserved to have people back up, backing up around it and saying, yeah, this is good. Let's get it now. And it didn't require being chosen for me to find that like I went and I said will you help will you help me and I deserved it how did you seek those people out because I think again it's like that's the

traditional routes that people think are the only routes and when you're doing differently it's like okay well how yeah how do you go about that the world is just the world is so exciting and like when I like there's a lot of stuff that we can talk about as creatives that can feel very like down the dumps but honestly there has never ever been a more exciting time for creatives like this is our era it's our renaissance I'm so excited for us there is so many new things happening out there for us there's editors like if we're speaking specifically for authors right here, there are freelance editors all around the place. And I looked up, like my book was like a very raunchy. It was, had a lot of like, had a lot of gay relationships in it. And it was about the church and it was very, and so I went and found an incredible gay editor who had grown up in the

Catholic church, who had so much information that was directly linked to my book. And she edited my book and they're just online. And in terms of like the practicalities of getting my book on, you know, in Amazon and blah, blah, blah, there's people to do it. You can just search like my one, I'll give her a shout out. Her name's Linda and she's from Bookboffin and this is her job. She just helps self-published authors get there. But she does all the boring stuff for you. She booked my audio book stuff. She set up my, you know, my recording, everything.

She got everything done. And there's a really cool resource for, in fact, it's a really good resource in general. Crap, am I going to be able to remember what it's called? To find illustrators for book covers, to find editors. Why is it always just my memory at the moment? It's a really, really good resource. I'll send it to you if I remember after the podcast. But there's so much stuff out there.

There's so many ways that you can get support without having been picked. How liberating was that for you when you actually started bringing the team together and bringing the product to life? Like what did that feel like? Really vulnerable, I won't lie. And I think having people support me as someone who, this is the first time I did it, like I was like, you know, I think, you know, I was still working through a lot of having just picked myself, but I was like, oh, are they having just picked myself, but I was like, oh, are they going to take me seriously? I was very worried that I would not be treated properly because I hadn't been picked by a proper gatekeeper. So it was a very nerve wracking process for me. But as soon as I got to know them and had relationships with them,

and they back me so hard and they love my book so much. Um, and as I saw that, I, I just learned to trust and it was very relieving. And I also felt a little bit coy, I think, because I was like, my excuse for such a long time for not self-publishing was, Oh no, I want a team and I'm not going to be able to get a team. And then I had this incredible team. Yeah, I was like, oh. No, I'm like so supported. And in terms of the coaching side, what do most people come to you if there is like a common thread? Yeah, there is, definitely.

And what is that? Procrastination, perfectionism, imposter syndrome also also burnout um yeah so being a creative coach like I work with all forms of creatives all forms of artists I do nothing really at all about like the craft like I'm not out here teaching writing I'm not out here teaching anything other than the the crap that we just come up against as creatives and the big four are perfectionism procrastination imposter syndrome and burnout and they're all very interlinked yeah well let's unpack that because I definitely have do all of these things how and you said that they're interlinked like from your experience how do they intertwine and interact with each other of course perfectionism and procrastination nearly always go hand in hand

because when we have standards for ourselves that are impossible it is incredibly hard for us to show up for ourselves um so when we ask ourselves to make perfect art that chances are is we're going to find it very difficult to show up in a consistent pattern. So that's often how perfectionism and procrastination interweave, but they also, they like, they're very similar topics. I've written a book on both of them and they are distinct obviously, but they just keep coming into play with each other. Imposter syndrome, again, is going to be incredibly linked with perfectionism because the fear of being found out, the fear of being a fraud, the fear of someone discovering that you're not enough, again, is linked to this idea that you should be more, this perfectionism idea that you're not enough, that it should be

in other way, that I have to be this way in order to be loved. I have to meet this standard in order to find success. And the imposter syndrome is always that fear of I'm not perfect and someone is going to discover it. So they are very interlinked there. And again, if you're battling narratives like this, if every time you show up to the page, you're thinking this isn't good enough. You know, it's just so hard to create when you have an inner critic that loud and that demoralizing. Then all three of them, of course, lead straight to burnout because creating while you're battling those sorts of narratives and that violent inner critic will exhaust you. Procrastination will exhaust you.

And everybody always says, oh, I haven't even been creating. You know, how can I be burnt out? I haven't done anything. All I've been doing is procrastinating. Procrastinating is like, I swear to God, 10 times more exhausting than creating itself. Procrastinating is exhausting. And if you're in a bad pattern of it, you will burn out. It's just too hard to keep that up. How do you help people get through procrastination? Procrastination, from what I've seen and what I've experienced with myself is a trust issue. You don't trust yourself and rebuilding trust, very baby steps each day in

small ways has been the only way I've really seen like relationships with self-repair. You don't trust yourself to show up. And that is so painful because it's you. I often have this like, um, like little metaphor talking about, like, if you had a friend and you were like, let's meet up for coffee. And they just didn't show up. You'd be like, what, why? And then if you did it again and they didn't show up, you'd be like, what, why? And then if you did it again and they didn't show up, you'd be like, okay, well, like, do you have a good excuse? They might have a good excuse. You know, you could give them a lot of rope. You could give them 10 times. Okay, I'm going to meet you up for coffee. At the 10th time, you're probably going to be like, well, I'm not really going to make coffee plans with you ever again, am I? Because this is fucked. But the problem is,

is that you can't like break the relationship with yourself. You're always with you. Like you can break off relationships with flaky friends, but you can't break off a relationship with your flaky you. And it comes to such, it makes for such a difficult lived experience because you do not trust your own word and retrusting it and showing that you can show up for yourself, showing that you can show up for your own art happens slowly. It happens in really, really small expressions of action. Like what? I think this is how it interlinks with perfectionism. The perfectionist says, oh my God, I'm procrastinating so much. So I'm going to show up five hours tomorrow. I'm just going to write my book. Okay. I'm just going to write it. It's going to, I'm going to do like 3000 to 5,000 words. And then you show up and you don't do it. And then you've betrayed

yourself again. Right. It's a, it's a pattern of self-betrayal. And then you're like, well, I don't trust myself. Okay. Okay. Well then tomorrow, and you get really big and, you know, chemical rushes when you promise yourself big things. So it feels really good in the, in the moment I'm going to show up tomorrow and I'm going to do it even bigger this time, because I fucked up so many times in the past. And again, this pattern of betrayal just keeps happening. We have to baby ourselves. And it really hurts the ego, but I'm talking about, I want you to show up for five minutes tomorrow and I want you to look at the document you're working on. And I just want you to write a sentence. Then I want you to do it the next day too. I want you to do it three to four times a week. And once you've done that,

you're going to prove to yourself that you can show up. And then I want you to very, very slowly increase it. We ask so much from ourselves and we are constantly setting ourselves up for failure and self-betrayal. And we could just do loads less and still be very successful and we could fulfill promises and we could repair relationship with ourself. I think a couple of things that I want to touch on within that and one is you know we want to say yes to all the things whilst also doing the creativity and I know I'm guilty of being like yes I'll write five hours of this that day and when I was doing the book I would do that and I would constantly set myself up for failure and I I did burn out because I was trying to

manage everything else and maintain my relationships and show up in that way and then not having enough time for me and I do feel that I'm probably still slightly guilty of not actually giving myself targets that are achievable so I never get that sense of satisfaction so I wanted to kind of unpack like because the big thing here is really boundaries right yeah you need to be able to say no yes especially if you're a people pleaser and so many creatives are we're so sensitive because we're so I think we're so sensitive we're so attuned to what's going on in our world like I don't know it feels like we have like a softer more permeable membrane between us and what's going on outside and it allows us to alchemize our world into art, but it also means that we're

very sensitive to what's happening in other people's lives and what's happening around us. I think so many of us are people pleasers. And that means that it's very easy for us to deprioritize art at a rapid rate when people ask us from things. And no one's going to ask us to write our books. No one's going to ask us to write our books no one's going to ask us to do our art and we have to ask us to do our art and again that's that trusting like you know not only do we not trust ourselves we're not prioritizing ourselves and our self our relationship with ourself just deteriorates and deteriorates and deteriorates when we don't prioritize these things and it's so painful that piece around priority not just prioritizing ourself but prioritizing

our creativity really kind of hits me because I think that like even when I got when I've had really important whether it's literal work creativity or just like something I really want to do it's always the bottom of the pile and it always gets kind of shoved down and I think for people listening whether or not you're actually pursuing a creative career I believe that actually like accessing our creative self is so important for our overall well-being collected it's so important okay we we just we're here to make and in We, we just, we're here to make, and in so many different ways, like we're here to turn nothing into something. It's just like, I just feel like it's what humans are here to do. Like if you watch what you're doing throughout the day, we're just making,

we're creating, that's why we're here. And again, like when we deprive ourselves of that, when we deprioritize that, when we say this isn isn't important we're saying I'm not important and my purpose of being here isn't important I think it's really I think it's more serious than we realize um yeah I can't even fathom say like even the idea of thinking or saying to myself like this takes priority because it's important to me makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. It's sick, yeah. I mean, it's a big, big sign that that's your work, like that's so important for you.

And I understand like you haven't been taught to prioritize that, like none of us have, but I've like shamed my creativity. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it'd be interesting to like explore why. Shame and creativity just so frequently go hand in hand it's so interesting and I just I'm very interested as to why this has happened to us because it is so deeply sad and I think about all the art that we haven't seen I think about all the art we haven't seen from you Kagi because you keep deprioritizing it and it is literally heartbreaking like the stuff that you won't be able to make or won't be able to give

people because you keep betraying yourself and betraying us inadvertently by deprioritizing this. Oh my God. I had someone send me a message not like a few months ago and she just was like I've just felt this random call to message you and I just wanted to say she was like why aren't you releasing more music and I was like um I just find it quite hard and I've got a lot of things going on and she was like okay I'm just gonna say that she was like you because you feel it needs to be perfect aren't putting it out to the world but you're actually being really selfish in that because you're depriving people that get a lot of joy out of it and she was like it's your imperfection that connects with people it's not the fact that it has to be this like fully because

I think that's the thing that gets in the way for me and I'm sure for a lot of people it's like you I want to put things out into the world but I also want to avoid criticism I don't want anyone to tell me that it's awful or that it's shit and I think because I've had to navigate that and all creatives do because there's people showing creatives they do they criticize like there's so many people out there. And also the industry is kind of built on this, as soon as you put it out, you're going to be reviewed and it's going to be assessed and you're going to be judged. So that's a very real thing that for a very sensitive person to have to endure feels too bloody painful. Yeah. This is why so many of us are perfectionists because not only we have to be sensitive in order to be artists, but in order to be artists, we have to withstand criticism. We have to withstand being misunderstood. And there's no getting around this. And I don't want to modicoddle any artist and say, oh, you know, it's not that bad. Like people will misunderstand you. I had a post that went viral like the last few weeks and the audience, like it's millions and millions of people have

seen it. And it's, I've been so deeply misunderstood and trying to cultivate a sense of safety as I am being misunderstood has been such an incredibly important practice for me because I'm an artist and I'm going to be misunderstood. I am also in so many ways seen and understood by so many people. And it is such a fucking delight to be witnessed in that way. But I am also going to be misunderstood.

And how do we create a sense of safety when this happens? So how do I make sure that my body feels safe when I'm misunderstood? How do I make sure I mentally process it? I have very thin skin. I've safe when I'm misunderstood? How do I make sure I mentally process it? Like I have very thin skin. Like I've cried and I'm allowed to cry and that's good. I can process it.

Like I can make sure that I'm not trying to squish any feelings. Like I'm allowed to feel all these feelings of being misunderstood, of like some outrageous criticism. But how can I make sure that I, at the end of the day, still say, well, I, it doesn't really matter. I'm still going to make stuff. I'm still going to write. I'm still going to show up. And that's been cultivating a practice for me that has meant that perfectionism has no fucking place in my life because perfect art is incredibly selfish. The pursuit of perfect art is incredibly selfish. And I have no desire to go back into that pattern of creation so I've got to make sure that I'm okay with what happens when I am misunderstood

and what did that do you mind me asking what was the thought that was misunderstood and how and how was it oh it's just so silly like I guess because so much of my work that I share online it's um like very uh distilled thoughts that have come from much larger thoughts. And often the nuance is missed. It was talking about how creatives don't always need to be visible on social media. And people came to me saying that I am basically like hamstringing creatives and that I'm, like hamstringing creatives and that I'm um honestly some of it was nuts that I'm basically making creatives be poor that creatives if they listen to this message that they're going to be you know deeply harmed and that I'm promoting

people to stay hidden and that I'm basically giving permission for creatives to never be witnessed and like people have made you know like long posts about how this is like toxic to the creative world and like you know it's fucking nuts and like well this is just lol like hilarious because I knew and I backed myself I knew that what I was that wasn't what I was saying obviously um but I still had to go through the process of making sure that I felt safe being misunderstood I think the the weird sort of good thing about the fact that that is the world that we live in that people can go off on one to someone that's clearly trying like making a positive my whole life is about making creatives feel seen that that just in a weird way it's kind of like it's easier because you realize how

ridiculous it is and it was so stupid just one like very articulated kind of piece that was a criticism it might feel a bit more jarring but when it's just so it's just so many people that are clearly quite like unhinged just just projecting their own shit on whoever they can and guising it as like virtuous. It's like, don't even let that penetrate what you feel. Yeah. And it's interesting, like that experience has been great for me. Like it has honestly been great for me.

It's just, it's reminded me of my strength. It's reminded me of how much I see myself. But similar things like, you know, people people some people really don't like my books khaki like some people really don't like them because they literally just think it's a bad book and like getting okay with that yeah because the sort of paradoxical thing about that is as someone that really tried to be for everyone for a big part of my life when I then realized that I actually had no idea who I was because I'd been shaped to be anchored and grounded in one version of me and then be just like that. It's a weird sort of bittersweet victory because you're like,

oh, that feels uncomfortable, but also at least I like me. I'm actually doing something for me now, not for everybody else. I think this is where the power of picking yourself first actually comes into play because I already picked myself. Like if I had been picked by a gatekeeper and then I had to come to terms with people hating my book, I'd never have picked myself. I never backed myself. And so I'm trying to always go off external validation. And so having this kind of starting point or foundation of this all began because I chose me and I said, I see you and I think you have something really fucking cool to give the world. And having that as my foundation really helps me because I'm not constantly relying on that external validation. And it took a long time to get there like a long

time and it was an incredible amount of inner work and mental health work and spiritual work but it set me up to a place where I can handle it and I'm okay with being misinterpreted and again like I will cry about it that doesn't mean I'm not okay. Yeah I think that's an important distinction it's not like you you've suddenly become not impacted yeah and what about the ego and how that kind of plays into this whole process because that can be a tricky fucker well the ego is I mean can the ego and perfectionism are just some besties right like that I went yeah it's it's a lot like it infiltrates a lot of places you've got to have them in check because they could rule the show especially and interestingly after success um

and I was having a really big discussion the other day about what people fear about success and and I often see in creatives that much more than fearing failure, people fucking terrified of success. One of the big fears is I'm afraid that I'm going to get really carried away with my success and my ego is going to rule the show. And I think it's a really interesting fear and people are not going to like me and I'm going to be a dick and all of a sudden success is going to change me and my ego is just going to go out of control. It's a real fear that people have um and I think that's really interesting like why I also think there's I've sort of analyzed that and I I feel that the fear of success also lies in the fact that there's a safety and a familiarity in like where you're at and if you up level to a place of success

you then have to maintain that because you know that there's a floor that's lower and you don't want to go back yeah that's really hard with creativity as well it's your only it's like good as your last project you have to keep creating and so you've you know when you start getting that success to to keep the momentum and then people are like, would rather sort of avoid beginning. Yeah. Yeah. The lists of people's fears around success were super interesting. And I think a lot of them were ego related. Um, what if my second project isn't as successful as my first, You know, well, I would have to not play small anymore if I was successful.

People find, you know, failure weirdly comforting because it means that they can give up. And yeah, it's interesting how triggering success can be and also how little we talk about it. We're always talking about how to prevent failure and how to manage failure and how to move through failure and of course it's a really important conversation but there's just no one out there prepping for success and like there's a lot of prep to do there's yeah on like how to manage success yeah and you know how many creative people like can't handle it really yeah exactly there's a lot of work to do I think to live an abundant creative life

and I mean like abundant as in like successful but like joyful because I think a lot of people can like kind of like jackhammer their way to creative success but they're very unhappy and again they're on this like kind of addictive train of needing more and more external validation and like trying to keep up momentum the exhaustion the burnout I've got to keep going what if this next one isn't as good what what if I fall back to there like it's exhausting and I don't want to be that sort of successful creative at all um and so doing the work beforehand and doing the work during this journey is like in my opinion crucial and not often spoken about well I guess it ties into that pick me energy, doesn't it as well?

Yeah, yeah. It's that difference between, you know, we do as artists obviously crave being seen and we need a degree of external validation to actually have that success and have it be brought to life. But we also, if that's out of balance with like seeing ourselves it will also be destructive even if from the outside eye you're killing it yeah it's perfectly said there's a balance that needs to be kept yeah how do you sort of maintain that balance how do you sort of maintain that balance now? I journal like journaling is at the root of all of everything I do and it's this dialogue with myself and it is like like it's literally just

me on the pages with me chatting through things talking through narratives rewriting narratives um like everything changed for me I was was incredibly, incredibly depressed. I had just gotten fired. I was in like tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt. Um, I was in deep shame because I thought that I was so childlike for wanting to be a creative and I decided, well, fuck this. I've got no job. I'm just going to try and journal each morning. And I took myself out, wrapped up more credit card debt with a coffee on the card. And I journaled every day and I've journaled every single day of my life since that day. It was like five years ago, a few days ago. And everything changed from that point because I could witness the stories I was telling myself and I could witness my inner critic and, you know, like just reading what I wrote to

myself on the page. Like I just let my inner critic like take the pen. Cause I was going to say, you put up something recently about, you people ask people often like how do you journal you know how do you begin one link did is there a particular process or way that you go about I just journal like an a4 page um so it's like enough so that I can get through some bullshit but not too much that it's intimidating. And I literally just transcribe what's happening in my mind at the time. So it's often just like, at the beginning, it's just like the most random things like, oh, I slept like this. Oh, this pen isn't working very well. Oh, James is really annoying me, blah, blah, blah. And then slowly I'll just see what's happening. And eventually it will just start pouring out

what's actually underneath all of this. And then at the end, I do this practice that I call mothering myself. And it's like this higher voice. And I just treat myself like a fucking precious little treasure. And this voice, I credit to a lot of this changing of the narratives. Like, so I'd witnessed my inner critic at the beginning of this journey. And it was just disgusting, Kagi. Like I reread some of it and it was like, I was so, so cruel to journey. And it was just disgusting, Kagi. Like I reread some of it and it was like, I was so, so cruel to myself. And I was like, you're a piece of shit. You're so lazy. You've got so much debt. You're, you know, and then at the end, I just chose to like, just take care of myself. And this voice would be like, Oh my God, baby, you're doing so well. And I'm so

proud of you. And I know this is really hard, just receiving so many stories that this is not enough that wanting to be creative is delusional, but I believe in you. And I'm so proud of you. And I know this is really hard, just receiving so many stories that this is not enough, that wanting to be creative is delusional, but I believe in you and I'm so proud of you. And I believe that we've got this and it's very soft language. It's like a reparenting technique, essentially. And I just got my little inner child who was just having a major fucking freak out because she thought that she'd done everything wrong. Just like taking her in my arms and telling her that she hadn't done anything wrong at all. And that she like was doing everything right. And that she was chasing something so innate in her and that she was going to, and that woman, you know, that

woman who was so sure everything she was doing was wrong. Let me hear today where I'm like moving to a fucking English cottage where I'm going to write my novels. You know, I just bought a mini, like who is it? Like I, she got me here, you know, and it was through the pages that she got me here because I rewrote narratives that were suffocating me. That is so powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's like the most, that's the thing. It's like, we have all all we need it's just getting the tools yeah it really for me all my work or that like when I do creative coaching with my membership like I use journaling because I just feel like getting to witness the way you speak to yourself on the page like I think

too many of us are walking around completely unknowing about what dick we're being to ourselves in our own heads because we're so used to it yeah and actually seeing stuff on the page and being like able to explore and get curious around what's happening is revolutionary and it changed my life yeah because also I think the you know the themes that we mentioned the procrastination the burnout the perfection all intertwined in in that in a critic but because like you say we walk around having conversations being polite to other people and then being like why do I feel so exhausted why was I not able to do anything productive today and it's like you don't acknowledge the way we're actually communicating to ourselves it's incredibly confronting but also a cathartic thing because

then you can start that dialogue of reparenting but you can only do that when you're really brutally honest with yourself yes and I like that you call it dialogue because it has to be a dialogue and a lot of people I know like I'm journaling I'm writing all my bad thoughts on the page but I'm like well you got to do something else you can't just write the bad thoughts there has to be an alchemization here because you'll just keep buying into it you'll just keep believing it if it's all that you let out um it has to be a rewrite and the rewrite is uncomfy like you might not feel so great about it because you won't be buying into it yet but this is the magic this is literally rewriting your pathways this is your new life on the pages before i the process has to be slow and steady and i think we live in a world where we love a quick fix we

love a like spiritual bypass and just get to that point it's like no this is about the daily discipline and kind of over time creating those solid foundations a hundred percent and I think when you ask me what to do I'm like I feel like you should be my coach because all the kind of creativity stuff when you're like you haven't put stuff out I'm like I know and I can't you know what I do as well I'll like get 90 percent of something done and then tell myself every reason why I can't do that final 10 percent right now and then we'll just honestly it's like madness the things that I sit on because I'm like oh it's just not the right time or oh no I can't find I don't know who to mix who's

gonna mix this project right now and like yeah it's it's bad I want to say a few things first of all that 90% thing is really really fucking rife the the oh I Oh, I'm not, I'm done, but I'm not quite done. So I'll just put it aside. Like, fuck. And so I want to say that like, I have, this is why like being a creative is the most vulnerable job. And even though I feel like we can feel this pressure of, Oh, I'm got so many stories and narratives to work through. Like we have to work through them with like the craziest amount of compassion. And again, that's why I use that mother work through. Like we have to work through them with like the craziest amount of compassion. And again, that's why I use that mothering voice. Like right now, I would like scoop up your inner child and be like, oh my gosh, you're

doing so well. And I know you've got all these things you want to do. And that's so exciting. And we're going to get to them. But I just want you to take like a really deep breath and just know that I'm already so proud of you. Like making sure that even when we get really excited and overstimulated and like, oh my God, we've got to go.

We've been fucking around for too long that we bring that kind of central nervous system to a relaxed place and remind ourselves that we're already enough. We don't have to prove ourselves and that we're already doing so well. That's such a good reminder. And I think so important for our audience listening.

I think that's a beautiful place to end. there any kind of other if you know I think there's been so much wisdom and you know guidance in this conversation but is there anything else you'd like to leave our listeners with oh no that was I think that was a beautiful place to leave it like you're already doing so well well thank you so much Amy for joining my absolute pleasure thank you I hope you enjoyed this conversation between myself and Amy some of my takeaways from it were you know this conditioning the societal belief that creatives aren't going to be successful or that it's not a real job and if we kind of step away from that conventional

nine-to-five what does that what does that mean and what does that look like but also how this is intertwined in the liberation of choosing ourselves and walking our own paths. Regardless of whether you consider yourself a creative person I think we all have to face our own inner critic from time to time and what I found helpful about this conversation is it's in recognizing that we all have it and that's why Amy's work is so powerful because she just gives these really to the point direct notes on the things that I think we're often thinking but perhaps they're not fully in our awareness because they're just spiraling in our own heads and we often think that we're the only ones that think or doubt or feel that way but actually it's

part of the creative process. I hope this conversation has inspired you. I found it incredibly inspiring and I'm actually going to be meeting up with Amy because I think she was like, okay, you've got some shit to get through. So watch this space, everyone. I hope that I, you know, get out of my own way and deal with my own BS so that I can actually bring you guys more creativity and I hope that you will do the same. If you enjoyed this episode I would absolutely love it if you could spend a minute, half a minute and go and write us a review on Apple. I personally love reading them. If that's not enough of a reason, it also helps us get discovered by like-minded people. And the

more we grow this podcast, the better and bigger our guests can be so we can continue to bring wisdom and joy into your ears every week. So please do that. And thank you very much for listening. And as always, remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.