Saturn Returns with Caggie - 7.2 You Don’t Have to Perfect to be Worthy with Katherine Morgan Schafler

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

In this week's episode of Saturn Returns join Caggie in conversation with Katherine Morgan Schafler, a licensed psychotherapist, writer, and speaker based in New York City, who is also the author of the book 'The Perfectionists Guide to Losing Control.' In this insightful discussion, Caggie and Katherine explore the complex nature of perfectionism, a common challenge that many encounter during their Saturn Return as perfectionism is an aspect of the shadow side of Saturn. They discuss the unattainable standards and nagging desire for perfection that can often arise during this transformative time of life but how this ultimately causes us to stall, sabotage and leave things unfinished. Drawing from her clinical expertise, Katherine dispels myths about perfectionism and breaks down the five main types she has identified. She also shares her insights on the links between addiction and perfectionism, based on her experiences as a psychotherapist. Throughout the episode, Caggie and Katherine emphasise the importance of self-worth and returning to one's core values as key elements in finding contentment and a sense of completeness. Tune in to this thought-provoking conversation as they unpack the nuances of perfectionism and offer practical strategies for navigating this common challenge during the Saturn Return phase and beyond. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I'm joined on the show by a wonderful woman and that is Katherine Morgan Schaeffler. She is a psychotherapist that is based in New York City and she has released an incredible book called The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. Now if you were like me you may have perfectionism show up in your life in fact after listening to this episode I would say that most people do they just might not be aware of it particularly as women. This conversation was one of those ones that not only makes me recognize how

lucky I am to do what I do to be able to connect with people like Catherine who have so much wisdom they're so considered so intelligent and it was just one of those conversations that had so much value so I cannot wait to share it with you some of the things that we cover in this episode is how perfectionism shows up in your life, the different categories of perfectionism and how you can be a perfectionist in one category, in one area and another in another. Personally, for me, I really resonated with the procrastinator perfectionist and the messy perfectionist, which we will get into in this episode. Beyond discussing perfectionism, we really tap into the importance of values, which is something that I've been really looking at at the moment, especially as

we've been doing these courses for Saturn Returns. It's rare that we actually sit down and consider the things that we value that are paramount in our life and whether our life is living in accordance with those values. When you feel that you are off course or you're struggling and this is a very common thing during your Saturn return, I feel like coming back to your values is so key and integral to kind of put you back on the right path. We also tap into belonging and I really loved how Catherine distinguished that as a sort of need that's something as important as air as water it's a primary need that we have it's not a preference and I think that we confuse it as something that we don't need like it's something that we want

but it's not part of the sort of human necessity of survival. And I love that she pointed that out because it really hit home for me. And I believe that it's something that we aren't valuing in our society as being that paramount. So that really kind of struck a chord with me. And I hope that it will with you too. with you too. Catherine, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you for having me. You're the first, I feel like you're the, oh no, no, no, I've had one Catherine before because my name is actually Catherine. Not many people know that, but it got shortened to Caggy when I was very little. But nice to meet another Catherine. Likewise. And you are in New York.

Yes. How's New York at the moment? New York is always perfect to me. I love this city so much. It is the middle of the winter and it just snowed for the first time. So we had no real winter this winter, which is alarming. New York's winters are brutal. I lived in New York. I went to drama school there when I was younger. And I remember seeing people going around on skis and stuff,

like crazy things. But thank you so much for joining me I'm really excited to get into this conversation with you because I have been reading your book which kind of tackles many issues but the sort of idea of perfectionism which is something that has definitely become something that's been brought into my awareness on a personal level probably over the last couple of years and so I was really fascinated by your work and especially sort of diagnosing myself in the category of the the messy perfectionist which wasn't that much of a surprise but for the audience that doesn't know I would love to for you to introduce a bit about who you are, the work that you do, and this wonderful book that you've created. Yes. So I am a psychotherapist and a writer, and my book is called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power.

And I wrote it because I've always worked with perfectionists on some level. I've had a private practice on Wall Street, so I saw a lot of women in big law and finance. I worked as the therapist on site at Google in New York for a while. I worked at a rehab in Brooklyn, which, you know, perfectionism and addiction intersect in lots of interesting ways. And I worked in a residential treatment center with kids in Los Angeles who had been abused and neglected and really felt that they had no sense of belonging and no sense of identity. And I think in those circumstances, perfectionism certainly surfaces. And what I found in the midst of all these years of clinical work and just my own experience with perfectionism personally was that the patterns I was noticing in my practice and in myself did not match what was being talked about in the world of personal development and self-help with regard to perfectionism. And that was that the way it's talked about now is so one-dimensional, like perfectionism equals bad. So your job is to not be a perfectionist or to be less of a

perfectionist. And that, A, doesn't match the research. For many decades, the research has identified perfectionism as a multi-dimensional construct, meaning it can be bad or good. You know, the research terms for that are adaptive or maladaptive, and that it's very context dependent. So your perfectionism can really rise in certain situations or during certain moments in your life. And, you know, the more I dug deeper, the more I saw that perfectionism is like this kaleidoscopic, huge, interesting, beautiful, microscopic, huge, interesting, beautiful, potentially disastrous thing that we do not understand at all. And there was no language for what I was noticing. So I created language for it myself just to contain all that I saw and recognized. And I noticed in particular five types of perfectionists outside of this old school idea of perfectionists that we have, which is like type A, rigid, uptight,

you know, buttoned up. And so that is where the five types of perfectionists was born. Would you be able to go through that? Because, you know, I think for a lot of the people listening that may identify as a perfectionist, but like you just said, I was, I grew up thinking I was no way a perfectionist because I'm so messy and chaotic. So I was like, that's not me. I'm not type A. And then like, you know, from reading your book and also just generally having that understanding of the variations of it I found it hugely informative so would you be able to kind of break down the different I would love to so um when we going back to what I was saying how we are taught that perfectionism is just this one myopic thing we think of perfectionism in a behavioral sense of like organization and being disciplined.

But perfectionism can show up emotionally, like wanting to feel what you imagine would be the way you're quote unquote supposed to feel, the perfect way to feel after, you know, a first date, for example. It can show up interpersonally of wanting to be perfectly liked or wanting to perfectly connect with others or perfectly understand yourself. It can show up in all of these types of ways. And the personality profiles are classic, which is the one we think about the most, right?

So each of these profiles has its advantages and liabilities because perfectionism is a power. And like any power, it has a dichotomous nature. So it can be good or bad depending on how you manage it. And classic perfectionists on the pro side, so structured, so reliable. They do what they say they're going to do when they say they're going to do it in the way they say they're going to do it. doesn't always engender a spirit of collaboration or things that tend to build connections with others. So they can be experienced by others as kind of distant and not relatable. And they can themselves feel a sense of being taken advantage of or taken for granted because people know that they're just going to do it, right? They'll plan vacation. Oh, that's her thing. She loves doing that. Then there is the procrastinator perfectionist. And this is the person who would really wants the conditions to be perfect before

they start something, right? Which rarely happens. So on the pro side, these are really thoughtful people. They can prepare so well. They can see a situation from 360 degree angles and they are not impulsive, which is such an asset. On the con side, their preparative measures can sort of spill past the point of diminishing returns and become a sort of paralysis, wherein they never actually do the thing they say they're going to do. And it doesn't have to be a hard thing. It doesn't have to be like this arduous work task ahead of you. It can be, you know, planning a vacation.

It's like, you never find the right time to go on vacation, that kind of thing. And the counterpart to the procrastinated perfectionist is the messy perfectionist. And these are people who are, I like to call start happy. They love starting. They love the intoxicating rush of beginning something. And they are on the pro side, naturally enthusiastic, really energetic. They are superstar idea generators. They love their hands in a million pots. On the con side, when this type of perfectionist gets to the inevitable, boring tedium of the middle of a process, they can encounter real struggle because they want that to feel as perfect as it did when it started.

And it doesn't, right? So if you think about, we think about perfectionism, I think a lot in professional context, but it is in every context. So if you think about the messy perfectionist, when it comes to dating, these are people who love, love, love, love, love, love the first date, second date, the third date. And then something happens, which is inevitable, wherein the person you're dating annoys you, let's say. And you're like, oh, oh, well, it was going well, but now I'm done. I'm never going to talk to this person. Then there is the intense perfectionist. And if you think of the public persona of like a Steve Jobs, Gordon Ramsay on a wind tour, these are people who want the end of the process to be perfect. So they are very much focused on the outcome. And on the pro side, they have razor sharp focus.

They are extremely efficient. They don't care if people like them or not. And so they're not trying to waste time and energy being overly palatable and friendly, right? On the con side, they can be so over-indexed on the outcome that they forget the importance of team collaboration or asking for support or taking care of themselves, right? These are perfectionists who tend to burn the candle at both ends and stave off other parts of their life until they finish their thing. For example, I'll spend more time with my kids after I finish X. I'll spend more time with my kids after I finish X. You know, I will take the trip after I make this salary in my career.

And they're just always kind of trying to make a plan to be very happy later. I'll be happy when. Yeah, there's a lot of I'll be happy when would you say that it it's fair that people would fall into one of those categories that most people would has that been your experience because it seems that this was a theme that kind of emerged like how long did it take for you to actually recognize that this was something that was happening in all your practices and with various people in various ways yes so it was know, years of noticing these patterns. And I do think that we operate with one dominant type. But again, perfectionism is fluid and

context dependent. So you can be a massive perfectionist when it comes to dating and an intense perfectionist at work. Well, you can not be a perfectionist at all when it comes to interpersonal relationships, which that's the last type. It's called Parisian perfectionist. Yeah. Parisian perfectionists, their ideal that they're seeking is about ideal connections. So they want to be perfectly liked. They want to be perfectly understood. And the pros of this type are Parisian perfectionists, naturally warm, naturally inclusive. They will go out of their way to engage someone standing alone at a party, for example. On the calm side, though, they can be so concerned about pleasing others and taking shortcuts to connections that they end up abandoning

themselves in the process and engaging in some toxic people pleasing. So, you know, you can be a Parisian perfectionist, for example, and in your professional life, just not really care that much about upward mobility or turning in the most close to ideal version of work output as possible. So I'm offering these types to just help people orient to the many ways perfectionism shows up in our lives, because I think it shows up for everybody. Yeah. And I think, you know, what you just said about it showing up, perhaps different aspects show up in different aspects of your life. For me, the ones that the procrastinator perfectionist in my professional life is something where I have had so many like half finished projects because they're not,

they're not good enough or like they're like 90% in fact and then it's that final 10 that I can't quite do because I start getting in my own head about the fact that they're not good enough and so I park them and then also the the messy perfectionist I I love starting a project and I get really struggle when things get a bit mundane and going into the meticulous details that aren't as sexy or as fun so I definitely resonate with those but what through your research what is the sort of underbelly if we're kind of once we've identified what perfectionist we are and can recognize oh in relationships I show up like that in work life I show up like that what then does one do to really unpack what's going on underneath like what is actually happening

that's causing us to behave in that way is it something that stems from childhood is it connected with trauma I know you mentioned earlier about belonging and identity is like big themes that can kind of encourage this sort of behavior. So what are the sort of things that people can do in that sense? It's a great question. I think what I tried to offer in my book is something that feels like a real risk for people and particularly for women. And that is, if you are going to take a first step, that is, if you are going to take a first step, assume that there is nothing wrong with you. Understand that just because you experience yourself and the world around you in this patterned way doesn't mean that it's bad. It's just something to be aware of. And in fact,

I see perfectionism as, you know, an impulse to contribute more than anything else, right? It comes from a sense of wanting to not necessarily achieve an ideal, because healthy perfectionists understand that ideals are meant to inspire, they're not meant to be achieved. But to spend your life endlessly striving towards something that you know you can't reach, but that you feel is worthy of pursuit. And so the first step is just to say, what if nothing is wrong with me? And then if you can get on board with that to say, what if this is actually a strength? What if I can use this to help me feel like more of myself? And you want to ask yourself two questions to take your emotional

temperature sort of on your perfectionism. And that is how are you striving and why are you striving? So the how is like, are you striving in a way that is burning you the fuck out? You know, are you striving in a way that is hurting yourself or people around you? And the, and if that is the case, then your perfectionism is showing up in an unhealthy way. And the converse to that is like, are you striving in a way that feels energizing to you? That sure is at times taxing because you're working, but overall you feel like you're growing, you're learning, you feel inspired, you feel increasingly curious. You feel like the way that you're striving is giving you energy instead of draining you of energy. is giving you energy instead of draining you of energy. And the second question of like, why is to your point of, is this coming from a place of trauma and compensation? So the why is like,

are you striving because you think that once you achieve whatever you're striving for, that's going to certify your belonging in some way that that's going to make you, for example, certify your belonging in some way that that's going to make you, for example, if you look the way that you want to look after that, then you'll be worthy of love. Or if you get the degree that you want to get after that, then you'll be worthy of thinking of yourself as a smart person. Or, you know, you'll finally be the, a real adult when you own your home and not just rent your home, you know? So are you striving in a way in which you feel like after I get this, then I can give myself permission to be that. And if there's that contract there, that's usually unhealthy perfectionism. And the trickery of that perfectionism is that when you

get to that thing, that voice is then like, but now you need this too. You know, you never actually reach that point where you feel that satisfaction because your whole motivation is from a feeling of not enoughness. And so it finds something else that you don't have enough of. Absolutely. You're nailing it on the head. And I call that a thousand daggers at once. And it's been one of the most baffling findings in perfectionism research is that even when perfectionists get the thing that they want, their perfect scenario, substitute for your own presence and your own self-worth. And the experience of winning forces you to realize that. And until you win, you can say, yeah, I don't feel good about myself or my life, but I will feel good when. And then you get that thing and you still feel terrible. And then you even feel worse because you're like, I don't know how things I, yeah. Um, and so it comes up in so many different ways and, and perfectionism is important to note. You can't, it's not something you can eradicate from yourself. No. And also I think it's important to acknowledge that the world that we occupy presents perfectionism as this thing that we want to be. You know, when everyone goes for an interview and they're like, what's your weakness?

People are like, oh, I'm a perfectionist because that's the sort of positive weakness that they can say. But also in the Western world, especially that's very orientated towards achieving material things, the way the media is presented to us and advertising, it's like, no, you aren't enough, you need more beauty products, you need to get a bigger house, and so on and so forth. And so it creates this hedonic treadmill that we all feel on. And like you said, when people get to that point, and they recognize, actually, I don't feel any better but this has been the whole

construct of my life where do I go now and it's interesting because you touched on addiction at the beginning of this conversation I would love to understand how those kind of interlink because I think you know even within that having that feeling when you've achieved whatever and you feel that void within, addiction is something that often people gravitate towards to start filling that space. Yeah, I think a lot of people turn to addiction and self-medication when we're having mental health challenges that we don't know how to manage. And, you know, I understand that impulse to numb yourself out and kind of hit pause on what you're feeling so that you can just move through your day. But obviously, it becomes this detrimental pattern. And if you look in recovery spaces, I, you know, the stories that I use in my book, I'm a big storyteller.

That's how I remember lessons and points are not real in the sense that my client stories are, they belong to my clients, so I don't feel entitled to tell them. But they are real in the sense that they're based on things I saw over and over, based on real emotions and real dynamics that happened in the room. And when I worked in that rehab, there was a lot of perfectionism coming up around counting sober days, for example. around counting sober days, for example, right? And, and, you know, adaptive perfectionism is about understanding that your self worth is pre arranged, and you have no hand in it, right? So the moment that you're born, you are worthy of all the love, freedom, dignity, joy, and connection that you are worthy of then when you learn to talk well and walk well, or when you, you know, make a certain amount of money or whatever, it doesn't change.

Maladaptive perfectionism is about not being connected to your self-worth and feeling that your worth as a human being and your sense of deservedness of love, joy, dignity, connection, and freedom is based on your performance. So when addiction involves tracking performance through sober calculators, sobriety calculators. A lot of people who are suffering from addiction feel really worthy when they have 45 days, 46 days, 47 days. And then let's say they have a relapse, they like plummet to the floorboards, you know, and they're just like, now I am a piece of shit again, because I didn't get it together. And so you see how tenuous their sense of self-worth is. So that's one example of how perfectionism can maladaptive perfectionism anyway, can show up

in addiction work. There are ways to use perfectionism to your advantage in addiction spaces. And they talk about a lot of those in the book. And that is really focusing more on intention than goal. Like your goal is not really to have 3000 days of sobriety, for example, because if you have 3000 days of sobriety, but you still feel disconnected to people, you still don't feel comfortable in your own skin, you still don't feel like you're pursuing meaningful work, you still don't feel any joy in your life, that's not really reflective of progress. Your intention is maybe to live a life in which you feel at ease being yourself. You feel comfortable in your own skin. You build relationships that you can trust.

You don't feel reliant on alcohol or drugs or sex or food or whatever you're addicted to in order to get you through a moment. And if your intentions are being honored and you have a mistake, it's much easier to come back from that and learn from that and see it as an opportunity to ask yourself the question what needs are not being met that made me slip in this way right so adaptive perfectionists ask ask themselves are my intentions being honored maladaptive perfectionism is asked ask the question are my goals being met and they're very different questions they're not mutually exclusive but they're not the same one feels much more exterior

and the other more interior like an intention setting it allows the freedom for things to unfold as they're supposed to and for you to discern in each situation whether that feels in alignment with your integrity and your intention versus I my sense of worth is dependent on achieving that goal whether that's to look a certain way physically achieve certain things in your career or count the days of sobriety whatever it might be so I think that's a really really interesting and important way for people to be able to discern like where it's coming from and how to make that shift. Would you suggest that people start with that as a daily practice in terms of intention

setting? Yeah. So I have a list of values in the book and I find values personally to be so tricky because I look at a value list of like 30 values and I see words like loyalty, sense of humor, safety. There's not one value on there that I'm like, that's not important to me. They all feel important. And so it's hard to say, but you know what? These four or five things in this particular season of my life, I am claiming these

as the most important. And so to get out of the, as you put it exterior and get into the interior of your experience, you have to say, what is most important to me right now? And then you set intentions and goals around your own values, not other people's values. Right. And so, um, there, in order to do that, you have to reframe the way that you think about a lot of this stuff, which is why I offer on the second half of the book, specific behavioral strategies and 10 mentality reframes so that you can just get in a different headspace and approach this differently. Because again, I think the problem is not something internal in the sense that it's not that there's something wrong with you. It's that the way that you're thinking about this and approaching it

isn't the right way. One thing that I want to kind of circle back to, because we mentioned it, but we didn't go fully into it, is this theme of belonging, right?'s it's something that comes up in a lot of my conversations because as human beings you know we we want to live a life authentically and be true to ourselves but we also are wired for connection and we want a sense of tribe and belonging and community and often as we grow up and you know initiate, initiate into adulthood, friendship groups change. We're not part of the school system that's quite formulaic and we're all doing the same things at the same time. And people often feel isolated, especially in like their late twenties to early thirties, which a lot of my podcast listeners are. What has been your experience of people struggling

with the sense of belonging and how does it kind of tie into the work that you do? Yeah, so belonging and connection, as you're pointing out, are needs. They're not preferences. our need for belonging as a critical part of our survival helps you understand why it's so important for you that you feel the need to have, for example, one really trusted friend, or why it's so important for you that you want and desire a loving relationship,

or why it's so difficult when we experience real strain with our family members. Right. And so I think part of this is validating just like food, sleep, water connection. They are all of the same level of importance, right? And, you know, also being able to understand that in commercial wellness these days, we talk about validation as if it's all supposed to be coming from you. And that's what a healthy person does. A healthy person can love themselves and validate themselves and be connected all by themselves. And that's total bullshit. That's not true. That's not real. You know, validation from others is a need also. And we talk about external validation as if it's something that you need when you're weak. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. External validation is something everyone needs. Healthy people need that. What's unhealthy is

when you use external validation as the primary route to validate yourself, right? You should primarily be validating yourself, meaning I validate whether my choices are the right choices. I validate my worth. I validate the importance of my work. And when other people validate that too, it's allowed to feel good. And when other people actively invalidate you, it's allowed to feel bad because we're social beings and we need connection and we don't grow in a vacuum. We need relationships to grow. It's also why I can't stand the expression, no one can love you if you don't love yourself. Yeah. I hate that expression as well. Because then people are just like,

oh, well, I guess I can't be in a relationship it's like no that's not true I have loved people who fucking hate themselves momentarily or in a chronic way my love was not less real and I have had moments in my life personally where I have just detached from my core and really drifted. And one way to say that is that I lost touch with my self-worth and I stopped kind of actively loving myself, just going through the motions of my life. And I know I can name them right now, the people in my life that still loved me through that. No, was it harder for me to connect with them? Yes. That doesn't make their love less real. And

that doesn't make the love I had for people who were in their own drifting moments less real. And I use an example of the book in the book about this woman, Ava, who went to group therapy at the rehab that I worked at. Again, these are fictional stories, but they're based on sort of the real core emotional accuracy. And the last minute of the group session, she confessed to everybody that she had been drinking before group, was drunk the entire group and planned on drinking more afterwards. And so I excused the rest of the group and kept her and we for 15 minutes talked and tried to connect her with people who could stay with her that night, be on the phone, online sober communities, etc. And at some point, my rehab has to close. She has to leave my office. Every therapist has this experience where it's like the person you're working with isn't all fixed, quote unquote,

in the hour and they still have to go. And I hated opening the door and letting her go, not knowing if she was going to be okay or she was going to go straight to the bar. And when I opened the door, all five other group members were waiting in the hallway sitting on the floor. And this was an immediately touching expression of compassion and connection to me. And I felt immediately better. And for Ava, it was immediately infuriating because she felt like I don't have anything to give already.

I already feel worthless already. And now you're showing up for me in a way that I don't have anything to give already. I already feel worthless already. And now you're showing up for me in a way that I can't reciprocate. And I'm, she already felt like a burden to the world. And she felt like them being there then broadcast how much of a burden she was, that now they are waiting there for her. And she felt pressured to perform and sort of like feel better, get better. And she begrudgingly allowed one of them to walk her home. She did not drink that night. No, she sort of stayed out of herself for the next few days, but found her way back. And many months later, she described that experience as one of the most connective moments of her life,

one of the most compassionate moments of her life. So I talk about that story in the book to raise the point that connection can happen retroactively, right? So choices that make you feel nothing now, but are healthy choices. And you intellectually know they're healthy choices, but they're not moving the needle for you emotionally or in any other way.

They can much later on be the very same choices that bring you a sense of pride and comfort and safety and trust in yourself. Right? So going back to this, no one can love you until you love yourself. No, like that love, that connection, that's all real. It might not be experienced immediately in real time. That doesn't make it less real. Yeah. And you speak in the book as well about our sort of common humanness and that it's important for everyone to recognize that pain in that sense is universal. but pain in that sense is universal. Do you think that in the world that we live in today,

which is very digital, it's very, you know, create the facade, put that forward, present your best self. Do you think that our sort of, I don't know, that duality has become more polarized? Because of digital spaces? Yeah. I think there are a lot of ways in which we try to take shortcuts to connection and followers and kind of like digital spaces are one of those ways. But honestly, I don't think there's anything new about technology that makes it less personal. It really depends on how you use it. You know, I find Instagram, for example,

to be really connective because I don't follow people that put on a facade and in obvious ways and for everyone else. And I think this is the blessing of being a therapist. It's like, I already know what's going on. I already know that there's something happening behind the scenes because there is for everyone. I know that is true for you as you sit here and present so well and ask these really thoughtful questions and have this incredible podcast and platform and book and all this stuff. And all of that is real. And at the same time, I know that you're still encountering real stress and maybe at times even distress because you're a

human being. And that's not because you're unhealthy or anything's wrong or anything like that. It's just the human experience. And so that's obvious to me. And it's, it's very wonderful. Sounds like a weird way to describe it. But when you have worked with such high functioning people who anyone would look at and be like, oh my God, what a dream to be them. And you hear the truth of their lives, which I think a lot of times it's not that people are trying to hide it, but you hear the truth of their lives, which I think a lot of times it's not that people are trying to hide it, but it's also not necessarily healthy to advertise that stuff all the time. You know, it can be tricky. For your own personal work and self, do you find that, because obviously you have that awareness of these people and what's really going on behind the scenes and probably a way of being able to tell through subtleties that other people wouldn't be able to.

So for the common person that might be viewing other people and thinking they've got it all, I think that creates a lot of isolation in what they're experiencing. So what I'm saying is like, has that helped you on a personal level, knowing that there is so much more going on behind the scenes and that these feelings are very universal and very human? Yeah, I would say that's been the primary help of, you know, it's in the book. I talk about Dr. Kristen Neff, who's this brilliant pioneer in research around self-compassion. And she says self-compassion is a three-step resiliency building tool. And one of her tools is common humanity, which is just understanding that like your problems and your troubles and your experience are very common. They're part of everything anyone in humanity experiences. There might be idiosyncratic details around them, but mostly it's all the same stuff. It's like the same general themes of, I don't feel like I'm good enough, or I'm not feeling connected,

or I don't feel like my life has a deep enough purpose, or I don't feel, you know, something. And, um, on the other end, I feel too much. I feel like I am overbearing for people or too hard to love or too much of something. And, you know, we all dip and dive and coast and float and soar all throughout our lives like that's what it's called you know that's what it means to be a human what does purpose mean to you purpose to me means aligning your values with your actions right and so the difference between purpose and having a really nice, florid idea is that purpose is energized and animated through the way you actually show up in the world. gave some helpful tools for people to overcome their certain categories of perfectionism. For the messy perfectionist, it made me laugh because it was, he wrote about, you know, writing a thank you letter, for instance, and actually putting it in the mail.

And one of the things that I do is I'll write a thank you letter. I'll never post it. I know. My brother found a thank you letter from like four years ago at our old flat. And he was like, shall I put it in the post? That's so funny. Yeah, I know. It's so funny that this stuff shows up, again, not in even the hard things.

No. Across the board, right? For people that might feel, because I definitely feel my sort of procrastinating and I guess perfectionism can really get in the way and be a burden to me sometimes because I don't understand where it's coming from or how to overcome it what is the kind of as a last thing for people to sort of switch when they're feeling that way or like what are the really useful tools for kind of switching that gear so it becomes a progressive thing rather than regressive well I think the best tool is to shift your mindset because shifting your mindset makes you see

something in a way that you cannot unsee. And so that automates all of your thoughts around that thing, as opposed to, you know, shifting your mindset is a powerful thing to do as opposed to a controlling thing to do, which is the way a lot of people manage perfectionism, which is every time you encounter a single thought, you try to dismantle it and rebuild it one at a time. And that is just hemorrhaging energy. And the greatest way I think to shift the way you're thinking about your perfectionism is the big aha discovery I had in writing this book, which is that perfectionists are not seeking flawlessness. They are seeking wholeness. And wholeness comes from within you. So if we look at the Latin root of the word perfection, you get perficere, per, complete,

and facere, meaning do. So when we say something is perfect, what we mean is it's completely done. We wouldn't add or change a single thing to it. You know, if you think of the sound of laughter from someone you love, that sound is perfect. You're not like, oh, that sounds almost perfect. But if they could just laugh, you know, at a little bit of a higher pitch, nobody says that, right? The laugh is perfect because it's complete. And when we say someone's a perfect stranger, we're not saying they're a flawless stranger. We're saying they're a complete stranger to me. I have no idea who that

is. And so to understand that you are perfect, you are already whole. You're already complete. You're already a whole human being when you're born. And that makes you entitled to every birthright that human beings have, which is the love, joy, dignity, connection, and freedom. And there's nothing you can do or not do that would make you unworthy of that. And I don't like when people tell, especially women, you are enough. It's like, I don't look at my five-year-old daughter and say, Hey, honey, you're, you're enough. You're enough. I say like, you're perfect. And we're afraid to call ourselves perfect, especially as women, because what would that mean if we didn't have to add one more thing to ourselves and we didn't lead with our inadequacies like what would that even look

like how powerful would we become and it's like no we recognize perfection in nature in children in our best friends in art recognize it in yourself start there amen I love that thank you so much for joining me in this beautiful conversation. I have absolutely loved it. Same. Thank you so much for having me on. And we'd love to get you back at another date. But yeah, thank you for sharing so much wisdom with us today. Absolutely. My pleasure. I really love this conversation with Catherine, like I said at the top of the episode.

It makes me so happy that I get to connect with people like that, that I wouldn't otherwise if I wasn't doing this show. And to be able to share this wisdom with you, because I know that it's going to help you guys so much. It really helped me. I spoke about it in the conversation you know how I'll always start projects and then get to like 85 percent and then not be able to do the last bit so if that's something that resonates with you perhaps we can take this as an opportunity

to hold ourselves accountable and also this like beautiful way of you know perfectionism isn't about living life flawlessly it It's about being complete. So if we can reframe whatever ideas or things we want to put out into the world as just making them complete, they don't have to be flawless. In fact, sometimes the things that are flawed do the best because it resonates with people because we are flawed as human beings. Hate to break it to you. And I've got a lot of projects going on at the moment there's some that I haven't really spoken about yet one in particular that kind of has come up for me after re-listening to this episode is a music project that I want to bring

out and again I've sort of done like 85% of it so I'm saying this so I can actually hold myself accountable and bringing that to life. Many of you guys don't even know that I do music, but I'm a big believer in we should express whatever gifts we have. It's our duty if we've been given the opportunity, the voice, the platform, the ability to put that into the world. And of course, creativity comes with many, many challenges we can get in our own way, but that's part of the journey. And we have to be able to overcome those obstacles and to have

the goal being about putting it out, completing the thing, not about perfectionism in the way that we kind of view it. Something doesn't have to be perfect to be worthy. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I could go on and on and on about how much I adored speaking to Catherine and how much I took away from this conversation. So please share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. I always love hearing your thoughts and feedback. And yeah, thank you very much for joining us this week. And remember, as always, you are not alone. Goodbye.