Saturn Returns with Caggie - 7.3 Showing Up For Tomorrow’s You with Millie Mackintosh

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Today Caggie is joined by her childhood friend and former castmate of Made in Chelsea, Millie Mackintosh. In this conversation Millie opens up about her experience of bullying at school, a very formative time in our lives, and the toll this took on her mental health and the aftermath this had in later years. They discuss Millie’s transition from more turbulent times in her twenties into motherhood and the gratitude and fulfilment she feels from this aspect of herself. Often our twenties can be a vulnerable and challenging time and, as we go through our Saturn Return, we are forced to re-evaluate and make necessary changes. In this conversation, Millie discusses the importance she now places on showing up for tomorrow’s you and her journey with looking deeper into alcohol and the effects it had on her anxiety. Both Millie and Caggie discuss their sober curious journeys and their reasons for choosing to redefine their relationship with alcohol after questioning the cost conforming to this social norm was having on their mental wellbeing. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today is a very special episode as I'm joined by one of my oldest friends. She really needs no introduction for those of you who have followed me from the beginning of my career and that is Millie McIntosh. Me and Millie first met when we were 15 or 16 and we became fast friends. We did our gap year together, she's the reason I did Made in Chelsea and we've been friends ever since and you guys have wanted her on the podcast and so I'm very excited to share this conversation. In this conversation with Millie we discuss her experience at school

and the reason I wanted to talk to her about this is because having known Millie for as long as I have and been as close to her as I am I know about that experience and I think it's an interesting angle because I don't think many of you would. Millie has become very famous, she's often in the press and I sometimes feel that when people have that public persona we think we know them but we don't actually know their experiences or why they are the way they are and so it was really insightful for Millie to open up as vulnerably as she did in this conversation and talk about what made her the person she is today and some of those experiences were difficult for her but I think it's really interesting and very humanizing. We also discuss motherhood and the role that Millie is in now with her two kids

and how that's been really grounding for her. It's something that it keeps popping up for me personally as I guess I'm at that age where it's more around me. A lot of people are kind of shifting into that role. So it was really interesting hearing Millie's perspective on her turbulent 20s, I guess going through her Saturn return. And then finding this sort of peace in motherhood and a real sense of purpose in it. and a real sense of purpose in it. We also touch on sobriety which Millie openly talks about as something that she and I both struggled with our relationship with alcohol for similar and different reasons and she's very truthful in this conversation about her experience with it, her struggles with anxiety and her decision to go sober basically so if that's something you guys are struggling with

something you want to address and haven't quite got the courage to yet I hope you find this episode supportive well Millie Mack welcome hi my love I can't stop giggling because we're back on camera and it's just giving me flashbacks flashbacks and it's like a kind of deja vu feeling. Can you? I know, it's like a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of excitement. Yeah. What's around the corner?

Oh God, who's going to come through the door? Where's the third camera? Obviously, you don't really need an introduction because everyone knows who you are. But this is the first time you've actually been on Saturn Return returns which is super exciting we've wanted to have you there's been a lot of demand to have you on the show so i guess we're going to obviously discuss how we know each other obviously people will think that we know each other more through maiden chelsea but actually our friendship far predates that yeah because we met when we were i think we were 16 16 years old on in london it was someone's birthday anthony's birthday it was in a club i think no it wasn't i'm sorry it was in

was it henry j beans yes it was henry jp yeah okay i think i was wearing some really indecent you were wearing some very indecent jeans that had slashes through the buttocks they were so ripped that there was more skin on show than there was jeans my mom actually like did you do those did you make them no they you know there's you know that kind of look of the really ripped jeans but then as i wore them more and more, the rips got more indecent. Yeah. It was a good look.

It was a strong look. It was always this really low-cut jeans and then the little crop top. Yeah, that was the fashion, wasn't it? Yeah. But before that, if we were to go back, because I kind of wanted to explore today a little bit with you about school life.

Yeah. What that was like for you, because to a lot of people listening they will know you through firstly Made in Chelsea and then everything you've gone on to do today and you know I guess from your life since then it has been very much in the public eye living life as a famous person but what was like your school experience like my school experience and I have been thinking about this recently actually because we need to put Sienna down for schools and it kind of brings it back a bit but you have to start thinking about like where they're going to go to school and what her experience is going to be like because mine was

pretty awful I went to five different schools you went to five yeah I didn't know it was five and I was quite badly bullied at probably like three of them and the first one I went to was like near to where we lived in the countryside it was in Wiltshire and I left there when I was nine and went to my first boarding school and it's something also I've been like doing some work on in therapy recently because like when I go back through my life and I've been trying to kind of get more to like root causes of my anxiety I think a lot of it stems from being sent to this school when I was nine sent to boarding school yeah sent to this school when I was nine.

Sent to boarding school? Yeah, sent to boarding school. Because you didn't feel ready to leave home? I don't mean who is ready to leave home at nine. Now I've got a little girl. It's kind of uncomfortable, like, having these thoughts and being like, why was I sent to school when I was nine? Like, because I, you know, it's made me really question, was I like this really awful child?

And I really think my parents just thought it was the best option for me at that time because the school I was at I wasn't getting on that well they had like a change and like had my parents didn't really like the like direction the school was going in and I went to this boarding school where you could ride ponies every day. And it's now like closed down. It was quite like St. Trinian's. And it was in Dorset. So it was quite far from where my parents lived, like a couple of hours. It was quite brutal because you didn't have phones. And you literally would just write letters home on a Sunday.

That was it? Yeah. And you'd go home. It wasn't weekly boarding. It was like you'd go home. For a holiday. Eggs, yeah. Like a half term. And you go home, like, it wasn't weekly boarding. It was, like, you go home. For a holiday. Eggs, yeah. Like, half term.

And, like, half term and holidays. So maybe, like, every couple of weeks. Did you remember being homesick there? Yeah. Like, devastated. Like, I would literally, like, cry and cry and cry and just, like, cry and stare at a picture of my parents and, like, cry myself to sleep, write letters home that were, like, so tear-stained you couldn't, like, read what it said begging to leave I tried to run away how did that go I got to like

the end of the drive I was hungry like the intent was there like I was like this is awful then I think that probably went on for like six months or so of just being like really hating it and then I did slowly start to make a few friends and like get more used to it and then I think the rest of the time I was there I do have some good memories it wasn't like all bad and I would there wasn't any severe bullying at that school I'd say it was more there was a you know in the older years have this really like the older years will just pick on the younger years and you have to really like have respect for the older years social hierarchy and if you're kind of not in with if you like do something wrong to the wrong person they'll be like really have it in for you like the whole time that you're there so it was all definitely all about like respect um so that was my experience there and then when i

was 12 i went to a school called North Fallen Lodge, which was, went all the way up to 18. And I actually really enjoyed it and was kind of coming out my shell. I remember I had my first kiss. It was, it was an all girls school, but like, I was kind of at that stage between being a girl, like, like kind of just going into my teens. Kind of blossoming. Blossomingoming being like more interested in boys like feeling a bit more confident and then it shut down after a year then I went to Westonburg which was I think where I was when I met you

all girls actually maybe we were like 14 when we met you were there maybe 15 yeah like GCSE time yeah and it was before you went to millfield yeah i was there for three years so that we would have met when i was at western but that was all girls boarding and really that the girls were super mean because my school i was at before i'd closed down i went there um like mid in the middle of the term so you know all the friendship groups had already been made that's tough it was it was and i was like the new girl that had joined a few weeks into the term and that was the girls were so mean i had like just like that was like really bad bullying girls at

that age can be quite savage and so i thought i did three years there and i really didn't like it and i thought if i go to a mixed school that's going to be the answer so I went to Millfield for sixth form and that was probably the worst of them all why because the boys would like actually just as bad as the girls or if not worse in bullying yeah and what kind of bullying like you know in the way that boys will like label you something and like pick on you and just be like quite cruel yeah and by that age you've kind of got like alcohol added into the mix like all of that going on as well i also think with the schools that i don't know about millfield but the schools that were boys only schools and then

introduced girls they've got a sort of got quite a chauvinistic culture yeah and because it's such a sports school it's like there's this kind of jock mentality with where all the guys kind of the jocks kind of like the kings of the school they kind of like rule and they would just sit there in like the cafeteria and like mark all the new girls down would they hold those cards it was like it was quite it was bad so that millfield for you was the worst but generally like by that point i was just so like over school i didn't want to be there um i'm surprised i actually competed sixth form but i didn't do a levels i actually did a b tech diploma in art and design which had like loads of different like modules so i did like fashion

design i did everything from drawing to sculpture to photography a lot of what I did there does actually feed into what I do in my job now you would learn um you know how to edit photos in like photoshop and how to you know do conventional photography but then also did the digital side um so it was it was really creative and I that kept my interest a little bit but like overall I was like so over school couldn't wait to leave didn't want to do any further education so I didn't go to uni which I've been having discussions with Hugo about because he thinks it's like so important and I don't yeah and now we have to think about like you know it's a while away but but it's a big conversation because I

think you know his story I think our parents generation it was just like you have to go to university otherwise you don't stand my parents would go to uni they didn't yeah they didn't really put pressure on me to go to uni either I guess it really depends what you want to do but I for you the things that you learn actually have applied quite well I guess just by coincidence in many ways because it wasn't like a straightforward trajectory to where you are now. I weirdly feel that because I didn't have an easy time at school in my teen years and that kind of teasing and bullying a lot of the time the way I dealt with it was by like kind of laughing it off and like trying to trying to build this like tough exterior pretending I didn't care I think some of that has been quite useful since being in the public eye

also I've had this like strong sense of like I will make it like as a because of that yeah interesting because as someone that's known you since you were 15 I've always like the girl that I met was well put together beautiful everyone like wanted to know who you were 15, I've always, like, the girl that I met was well put together, beautiful, everyone, like, wanted to know who you were, all the boys wanted to be with you. So I never knew, like, Millie before that. Yeah, because we were friends while I was at school, because we weren't at the same school. Yeah. But also, like you say, you kind of went through that stage of blossoming, probably when you went to the girls only school, when you went of went through that stage of blossoming probably when you went to the girls only school when you went through halfway through the term and you kind of were changing and becoming more

of a woman which perhaps was threatening to some of the other girls yeah now I can see that but at the time you know you're you know I was like I was like this gangly teenager that I was just really unsure of how I looked I wanted approval I wanted to be told I look pretty but other girls were so mean what kind of things would they do like try and um like break my nose with a lacrosse stick that was always a polo stick like they would set like traps so if I like walked into the room there would be something that would like swing and like hit me in the face or. So really bad bullying. Like mean, really mean girl stuff.

I got scouted at the clothes show, which I remember being like, it like started quite a lot of bullying and I was like so excited by it. I was like, I think about 14. Wow, like it would be my dream to be a model like was so it was like this big deal and I remember getting this phone call and it was one of the girls like pretending to be like a model agent like calling me and I was like ecstatic like I'd

waited like months and hadn't heard anything and I thought I was like getting this call to say like can you come to London and then like I just heard someone like laughing I just remember like my heart like dropped that is shocking like you know that was just like standard stuff that was just a standard day in the week yeah oh my god how how did you react to it at the time I don't really remember I think I have shut out quite a lot of the memories. But what I do remember that I would pretend to find it really funny. Just as like a kind of protection method. Like you weren't affected by it? Yeah, just pretend like it didn't hurt me.

Like if you don't show them that you've been hurt. Did you feel like you were trying to find it funny in a way that you still wanted to be part of their gang? That you wanted to be accepted by them? Yeah, yeah totally even though they were rejecting you yeah just as like a okay how can I make this seem funny so it's all okay and it's not really such a big deal like I didn't go and I don't really remember like talking to I didn't talk to my parents about it I don't remember talking to a teacher about it I was so desperate to like be accepted and be part of the kind of social norm how do you think that's impacted you because you mentioned a second ago about you know getting to the root of your anxiety how do you think that's impacted you in the woman you are today in like because obviously then you know if we fast forward a

couple of years and then you're put into the public eye and getting all this sort of press attention everything like that that's in like a a whole different world of exposure but also comes with a lot of criticism and a lot of opinion and your life very much from that point has been documented in the public domain how have you like managed that because personally for me like I find that too anxiety inducing and I kind of tapped out of a lot of it so how have you like what's that experience been like for you I think good and bad but I'd say I feel like I've been like lucky and I feel really lucky to have had the opportunities and you know the career path that has happened since we went on the show because we didn't know like what it was going to be we went on the show thinking this could just be

I don't know what we literally didn't even have a name so we were like what are we what are we doing um i think it was sort of we viewed as it would either be successful or go completely under the radar we didn't anticipate the third route which was everyone would like hate us or like it was just kind of this very polarized thing yeah people loved it or they hated it it was kind of like marmite of tv um but i mean i look back on it and i'm so grateful that we did that but yeah it was quite intense being thrust into the kind of public spotlight at 21 when i think back over that whole of my 20s to be honest it's just there's a lot of anxiety that was there um and it's something that I've talked about it quite a lot something that I've

been on a journey to trying to I don't know if you can really ever fix it but trying to learn to live with it and trying to reduce it to a point where it's not something that really bothers me in my day-to-day life yes it can be it's still there sometimes and I have to deal with it when it comes up but I would say through the kind of therapy that I've done a lot of it stems down to kind of childhood stuff and and my school years and those formative years are so important and if what you go through and experience in those years will affect you for the rest of your life which definitely since having kids you become like really hyper aware of that um and yeah it did it did make me really like anxious I've had like bouts of depression um I was depressed when I was at school I was diagnosed with depression when I was like 16

then they and like they tried to prescribe me with medication and I refused to take it probably should have it probably would have helped but I was just so in such a negative headspace I didn't want I didn't even want the help at that point even when we were I was thinking back like recently to like when I first when did I first register that I was having a panic attack that I had anxiety because it wasn't talked about as much no when we went traveling so I was just suddenly remember I was 18 and I was actually anxious a lot of the time yeah and just for our listeners me and Millie did our gap year together which when our parents dropped us off at Gatwick I couldn't believe they were letting us go to travel the world on our own because we were nightmares and so irresponsible and didn't have a clue I don't know how we made it back in one piece to be honest but you did I remember when

we were traveling you did and now the language would have been you know anxiety panic attack but we didn't really have I remember being at the full moon at the full moon party with you in Thailand and I would just yeah I would just I would just which obviously is very anxiety inducing it's a lot of people a lot of people like taking a lot of drugs it's super loud music it's a little overload of like yeah but just it was quite terrifying and I just remember I didn't want to be alone but I didn't want to be at the party but I just I did I was so uncomfortable and I just yeah I just remember having a lot of like stomach issues as well which now I know we're like we're so linked to

to the anxiety and I had this kind of this really uncomfortable IBS symptoms where I would get these kind of stomach cramps and feel a bit like sick and you had stomach issues from the get-go when we were traveling which obviously in you know Bali and wherever we were was not ideal no i think my approach was sort of like suck it up let's go just drink some more alcohol that'll solve it i'm really ill no actually i really can't drink but it was like just just yeah it was there was there wasn't really an option it was like we were we were out most nights for like four months yeah so how when you mentioned the anxiety and like so thinking about traveling like why do you think particularly that do you think it was the being out of comfort zone in foreign

places yeah I think a lot of you know you're far from home like much further from home than I've ever been I'm trying to think I don't know if I'd even like I had I don't know I had left Europe before that but it was like a lot further than I'd been um far from home you know there's a lot of uncertainty you don't have that kind of you don don't have a routine. You don't know kind of where you're even going to be staying like the following week. Like we had a rough plan because we went to like Bali, then Australia, then we went to Thailand. But not really. I mean, it was all pretty free flowing. And I get, I always think as well, when we travel, especially when it is unstructured,

it can bring a lot of stuff to the surface because even routine and you know having things in a structured order keeps things at bay so if we've been like suppressing certain emotions and stuff often like when you go abroad and you all of that goes out the window it kind of is brought up to your conscious mind also at that age i hadn't i didn't have any concept of self-care obviously or tools for how to manage it going you know going to get my nails done or a massage or something sure that was self-care but I didn't have any routine I hadn't discovered at that stage yet how useful exercise um can be to help aid with with mental health I didn't have any any thoughts about my mental

health I just knew that I felt awful but I didn't I hadn't I didn't have any any thoughts about my mental health I just knew that I felt awful but I didn't I hadn't I didn't have any idea or any tools um to make myself feel better and then when Made in Chelsea came about did you view that as you know you could because I always feel like you had quite a clear trajectory of like the path that you wanted to go down did it feel like an immediate yes for you was it like because I was work when I went on to Made in Chelsea I I guess I had had this dream since I was like this teenage girl that had been like scouted that I'd wanted to be a model and I had auditioned for Britain's next top model do you remember and then when I and I got through

a couple of the rounds when I didn't get through to the final round and the Maiden Chelsea producers at the same time had been like kind of trying to get a meeting with me that's when I was like okay well that to you that opportunity to get onto tv and maybe like further my career as a model or in some way I was also training as I trained as a makeup artist and I was working as a like part-time as a makeup artist so I thought this is in some way is going to help me like progress to the next level and speed things up a little bit I just thought I'm going to use this platform somehow and you did I think of everyone in the show you went into it being like I know what I'm going to get out of it

rather than just I don't know just kind of mucking around like it felt like you were quite clear about your goals I knew it was an opportunity and when people sometimes ask me and say do you do you feel like exploited by the show I kind of did think of it like okay I'm gonna get what I can out of out. Yeah, and they'll get what they can out of you. So it was like an exchange. I kind of saw it that way. Do you feel that the fame aspect exacerbated the anxiety? Totally. I mean, how can it not?

And I think the way everyone has like camera phones now, it's like that feeling of like being watched, being, you know, whatever you do anywhere. One of the hardest things I like being watched being you know whatever you do anywhere one of the hardest things I've found is you know is you can't like you're living your life your private life in public and and people anyone anywhere can if you're not in a private space can take a picture take a video of what you're doing yeah what are there any particular moments that come to mind that you found particularly hard when that's happened yeah I mean it's definitely there has been a lot of anxiety inducing moments because it it has been like super uncomfortable and I've you know I have

made mistakes like we all do when we're young. Like I look back over my twenties and there was lots of ups and downs. I feel like some of it though, I had to go through in order to get to the place that I'm in now. When you, obviously like I kind of, the whole show is about people going through their Saturn return and in your late twenties, like you went through massive changes and everything kind of was turned upside down what was that particular

like looking back now how do you reflect on that time like what are your thoughts and feelings around it like what place were you in then versus where you're at now my late 20s I had got divorced which probably wasn't expecting to have done by the time I was like 26 because how long were you guys married for I was married married from I think I was like 24 to 26 or 27 20 yeah I was I think I was about 23 when I got engaged. Wow. So young. So young. Didn't know like who I was yet. Stephanie's still in that place, like trying to, you know, figure out who I was and what I was doing. Whilst it being documented. That was like, you know, 10 years ago.

Yeah. And then I think when I was about 26, 27, I was with Hugo. We got engaged. We we and we got married I think I was 29 and then by the by and then at 30 I got pregnant and how is that experience so that so that so in those couple of years I went from kind of quite turbulent getting divorced to then being with Hugo you know being happy and then and being like I want a family and getting married and having baby because what was the reconnection like with Hugo because I can't I remember speaking to you about it at the time but because that was a whirlwind period and also really hard to go through a breakup very publicly it was really hard having

kind of press attention around a really painful time and you just want privacy and then the feeling of there was a lot of anxiety actually really around I was just an anxious mess at that point I was like rattling about like lost a lot of weight was just like not everything was very like uncertain and scary as it is when you go through a breakup let alone like a public one um and then me and Hugo has like started hanging out again as friends and that feelings did come back up and and we then we started seeing each other again but when we were like meeting up and stuff we had to try and like hide and because we want like the press to pick up on it which is quite stressful which with that was it was really stressful and also you want to be able to you know the initial

periods of sort of courtship in a relationship are crucial and if you have the press kind of prying in it can disrupt the organic flow of something a little bit so I can understand that you want to be protective over that period of time did you manage to keep it quite private we did we definitely did try to I at the same time I was it was like a nut it was an anxiety inducing time and I think around that first year I probably I feel like I was going quite off the rails like I was happy with him but just like generally I could be like quite up and down like it took me a while to kind of like recover and like get to the more stable place I felt like I was in like when I got pregnant with Sienna and that was quite grounding so so

grounding I actually just remember being like thank you for like giving me this right now like just to like the universe because it was like I just needed it and was like this is what I want but at that point it was very grounding it was like right I know I'd been traveling so much those couple of years as well I think because I knew I did want to have I did want to have children like quite soon like when I was with got back with Hugo I was like this is my person and I knew that I was going to want to start that journey so I just did loads of traveling thinking get it I'm not going to be able to travel as much and I'm really glad I did um and then I just

remember being so feeling so lucky to be pregnant with Sienna and just, I was like, I know I'm going to be in the same place a lot more and just everything that was going to come with it. Yeah, it's just been a massive whirlwind since then, to be honest, because Aurelia then came quite soon afterwards. The last like, and we had a pandemic. That was like the last three years. No.

Which is like, also feels like it's gone by in a flash. Like Sienna's three in like two months. What has motherhood, had the role of motherhood like meant to you? Is it something that you've always wanted? Or was it something that happened when you met Hugo or reconnected with Hugo that it suddenly awakened that part of you it definitely for me motherhood is something I've

I've always wanted I was that little girl that was like obsessed with dolls and babies and my first jobs were like nannying babysitting jobs when I was quite young you know when you live in the country and that's like the only way I could like make money was like on like evenings and weekends um babysitting and I just I've always loved kids so I always pictured having having kids and my mom maternal I feel like I'm quite a maternal person. I love looking after people and just, yeah, I get so much like happiness from the girls, especially the ages they're at now. They're really kind of affectionate.

I can actually have chats with Sienna. She told me I was her best friend. And they just, they give me so many cuddles. I just love like the closeness. She is a mini you also like wipes snot on me when i came over the other day she does it for fun because i hadn't seen her in such a long time and i could see that she is a little bit of a diva and you were like i wonder where she gets that from whereas it really is just so chill she's actually she's quite feisty as well

oh is she oh no we've got sienna's a taurus same yeah she's got the same birthday that's pretty that's a pretty big deal as well that you guys had the same birthday yeah it's quite a big deal and aurelia is scorpio mid-feb no sorry mid-November that's a Scorpio right I think so anyway they both they if they're hungry or tired there's a lot of screaming but when they're in a good mood it's like so lovely hanging out with them how have you found managing before having kids right yeah being very much in the public eye like going to loads of parties going to loads of events having to present yourself in a certain way a lot of the time which I can imagine would be quite exhausting how and also

like I guess having a personal brand how did you find that transition then going into motherhood from a sense of juggling all those roles but also kind of adapting into that new aspect of yourself as a brand I remember having this quite funny moment when I you know when something like flashes up on your phone and it reminds you of like this time last year yeah and it was like the year before I'd been at Cannes Film Festival doing a job for like Magnum ice cream like so glammed up then like a year on and I was doing an ad for like a cleaning mop and shooting the content in my kitchen like in lockdown and I was like pregnant and I was like this is just a pretty big change but it just really made me laugh like how much how quickly like things can change as well um I would say it has my whole life is completely adapted and

that you know that I yeah I still get glammed up and go to events but maybe not not as often and to be honest I'm pretty grateful when I get to stay in and if I you know in my comfies with my hair in a bun and like not a care in the world it's more like I definitely it feels like a bit more of an effort when I've got a big camera ready how do you find those experiences now like going to those big events and you know what I actually feel so much calmer than you did before yeah like I'm like I remember I used to get loads of anxiety around like big events like red carpet things have all these nerves and I actually feel more confident now in my 30s like in myself in my appearance in just I'd say just with my I just

have I think I've found more confidence in myself since having my kids why do you think that is I just care less what other people think like I just kind of like this is me but also like my body's amazing I've grew two humans and and maybe I'm a bit more like fearless. Definitely have like less energy and time for haters. I'm just kind of like, this is me. Do you feel like you do have haters? I mean, yeah, not like you can't please everyone all the time. And there are like those Karens out there and mum police or just you know that troll that's going to want to say

something horrible do you take how do you manage that when that stuff if you see it because obviously with social media it's hard i went through a phase of savagely blocking people good to say look look look and then when i realized i was doing to these like people as giving them validation validation that their comment had like bothered me so now I just actually leave it unless it's horrific and you sometimes you have to report something but do you feel like you can have quite a thick skin around that stuff so I think you've always had from my you know being your friend for such a long time like quite a thick skin and being able to handle it does come from from the kind of bullying that I experienced for sure so it's like training

what the real world is going to be like yeah those bullies they leave school and they're still bullies a lot of the time yeah so would you say that that was a positive thing I think I might look back on it and kind of take something positive from it it molded me into the person I am today hey having panic attacks and struggling with anxiety and depression and having these mental health issues has not been ideal but I feel in a really good place now that I've like done some work and like got to a place where I can see things more clearly and I'm not living in that place where I'm having panic attacks often and having now I figured out like how to manage it I think I can like look back on it all

and be like it was something that I had to go through just to get to the place that I'm in now and like have now I feel like I've got a better understanding of myself and like why I am the way I am it feels like you're at this place where you're able to confront some of this stuff and face it head on perhaps because you feel more grounded and more settled in who you are and I also am a big believer that you know our body will bring these things up or our mind will release these things when we need to deal with it yeah and when we're ready and capable of dealing with it so even though it can be tough it's only doing that so that we can actually work through that stuff what has been some of the useful things that you've discovered and some of the tools that you found that are really helpful I think it's

really all about lifestyle and also you posted the other day I thought it was super interesting about like showing up for yourself and about discipline and it's so true it's like having like learning the discipline to get your ass up out of bed no matter how early to go and do that mindfulness to go and do that workout that is going to benefit how you feel like for the rest of the day it's so important and it's something I've really had to challenge myself to do especially after having kids when you don't have it's you know it's not as easy to just wake up at whatever time less time you've got less time

like therapy um meditation even if that's a walk meditation you do while you're walking it doesn't have to be like i like i love to meditate first thing in the morning but if you don't have time to do it that way you can do it like when you're commuting somewhere you can do it in the back not when you're driving but you can do it in the car you can do it on the train you can just sit and listen plug into something you can do it while you're exercising finding that time to have a moment of mindfulness exercising and I've been talking about this a lot the um how much alcohol affects my anxiety so I've actually been sober for just over six months congratulations which has been like life-changing yeah I wanted to talk to you about that because I remember I think we I've talked to you about it

before because I've kind of admired your your sober curious journey kind of from afar and being like oh that's cool that kegs is doing that like yeah and I've like picked your brains about it yeah it's that connection between that and anxiety and my mental health became I couldn't ignore it anymore I had ignored it for ages I just didn't I knew that obviously when I was hung over I felt anxious but it's not just even the day after it's like days like maybe up to a week how have the last six months been really good like I feel it like my anxiety is almost like non-existent do you think you're going to carry on yeah it's not like people are like oh that's great I know you're doing that like no drinking thing at the moment like I'm like no but I'm're going to carry on? Yeah, it's not like people are like, oh, that's great. I know you're doing that like no drinking thing at the moment. Like I'm like, no, but I'm not going to be like back back on it in a week.

Like I'm this is like a lifestyle change that I think is like for life. Yeah, I actually love it. And I'm I'm getting more and more into it. I am kind of that annoying person that likes to go on about it because I just feel so good and I want other people to experience it and one of something that's really brought me a lot of joy recently is having other people reach out to me and ask my advice and help because they're also finding that alcohol is not their friend and they are sober curious and and helping those people and giving them advice and saying oh I listened

to this podcast or I read this book and this really helped this is a really nice alcohol alternative drink if you're looking for one and then like catching up with them a few weeks later and hearing like that they're feeling so much better like it feels really good to help other people 100 if you found that yeah and because you need a support system definitely because it's such a socially encouraged and normalized thing to drink i'll be honest the beginning when i was like i'm gonna stop drinking was after a particularly bad panic attack and would you be able to talk a little bit about what happened yeah i i was it was the end of summer i was staying on a friend with i was with hugo we were staying on a friend's boat in turkey we weren't with the girls it's always quite hard being away from them as well especially somewhere where you feel like quite remote and you couldn't

get to them quickly but we um had had like nice evening the night before like not a super late night like I'd had a few glasses of wine nothing wasn't like a wild party but like yeah I'd had wine at dinner went to bed and woke up super early and thought I was unable to breathe like I thought I felt like my didn't register that I was having a panic attack I felt like my throat was really constricted and like it was and I haven't ever had an anxiety attack like show up in my body like that before a lot of the time for me it's very much in my stomach like I feel very nauseous this time it was I literally felt like my throat was closing and that I like couldn't breathe and I like literally was like hyperventilating couldn't get enough air and I started to black

out and I literally in that moment was like I'm dying I thought I was never gonna see my kids again it was like it was honestly like the scariest moment of my life and like I had woken Hugo up and he was trying to help me and he just sat with me trying to get me to do like deeper breaths and to breathe and like slowly slowly slowly I came out of it but it like completely shook me and he was like okay let's get off the boat and like go and just like go we went on a hike like the two of us and we just had this like really big discussion and then he was like why do you think where do you think that panic attack came from and I was like I think I don't think I would have had that panic attack if I hadn't been drinking that the night before but it was like my body was trying to tell me

something you know you said like these things like show up yeah and I said the words out loud I was like I think I should just never drink again and like when I had said it like I suddenly it really like I was like it was like this big statement to say I was like this feels like kind of scary like you know I was also on a boat with some heavy drinkers for the next few days I was like what am I gonna do but at that point it had become undeniable I think I just was like this is elephant in the room. Like this is, alcohol is not my friend. I suffer a lot more than anyone else I know with hangovers.

Like I get, you know, you've always known me. Like they definitely got worse with age and since having kids. But my anxiety is so bad that, you know, I've had to cancel so many things. Just spent days feeling like a shell of a human yeah i don't want to feel like this anymore it's just not worth it it's so not worth it um and those first few weeks like when i was around people drinking like i did feel quite uncomfortable not like oh i'm desperate for a drink but more just you feel left out i felt left out and i and i was used to alcohol like softening how I felt

in social situations yeah I'd say even like the first two three months it felt quite rough like social occasions and I did limit things and I only really went to things where I really felt like I wanted to or like safe enough yeah and I also had like lots of therapy you know I spoke to my therapist about it and we'd have weekly therapy sessions where I would we would talk a lot about it and that would that would really help as well I think you do definitely need like a support system but I started you know I just started to read I like ordered a whole load of books and started listening to different podcasts and um I just started to feel better about it each week what were some of the

resources that you found useful I found just like when I started to feel better about it each week what were some of the resources that you found useful I found just like when I started educating myself more about what alcohol actually does to your brain and body like the every lesson to the Huberman podcast yeah I was he's Brian him like so quite overwhelming because it's so much information is it just me is he kind of hot I don't know what he looks like but his voice is kind of hot his voice is sorry off topic um but that podcast I was like wow that was really eye-opening I'd say that's really a good one for anyone who's like sober curious to listen to it's quite long but like listen to it in two parts that was really interesting I think it would be hard to listen to that and not take some of it on board and really it really helped me to kind of make that link between alcohol and mental health like right this is actually

this is what it does to your brain and affirming what's going what your body is trying to communicate to you because you have to re-educate yourself on all this information because the normal thing in our society is to just drink it's so normalized and not just drinking but like heavy drinking yeah binge drinking binge drinking in our culture which yeah which to be honest i was fully part of for so long but it was just masking like my kind of uncomfortableness and my how self-conscious and anxious i felt emotional kind of social anxiety but it charges you interest in the morning kind of thing oh my god so the payoff is like i was getting screwed i was like this is not not worth it um so i think having since having that realization that like hey this is not

for me i think something that's really difficult in our culture as well is that alcohol is a drug we're like actively encouraged to use and if we don't use it then oh we must have a problem so there's this whole stigma around it like people like what's wrong with you you don't drink it's like i wouldn't say that with any other drug you know and be like why aren't you having that line of cocaine yeah yeah so when you look at it like that you're like wow it's like a multi-billion pound like industry yeah exactly there's a lot of agenda behind making it that way how have you because i always struggled at the beginning for me are you i use i haven't actually asked you recently are you still still sober curious you kind of

yeah you drink occasionally i mean for me it's an interesting one because i like to keep the door ajar and by that it means that if i find myself in a situation where on yourself yeah but like 99 of the time i don't drink when i go to anyone's party or stuff like that i won't drink you know my boyfriend drinks and i don't that's just part of my day-to-day life but i want to give myself the freedom that if i felt like a glass of something in the right environment at the right time and it was most importantly that it's coming from the right place that it's yeah you're actually like why am i choosing to yeah have this drink is it coming from an emotional place or yeah is it coming from a i want to alleviate this anxiety and escape myself or is it coming from i want to be present

and enjoy this moment and have something that's ritualistic and that's ceremonial and so that's the distinction I like to be able to make which is probably a bit more unusual and I think for people that are trying to find their way on it I always encourage people to recognize that it's a whole spectrum yeah and that it's just about experimenting with what works for you that being said I still know that no matter how much work I do the way alcohol impacts me is still undeniable and I might be able to get away with like having one drink and it not being so bad but there's also a possibility and I know if I roll the dice on that that I can have one drink and I will have nightmares about it which is something that I've yeah I've had that sit you know for the last since I went sober curious for like five years ago or something that I immediately will have a dream

about drinking and drinking too much and like getting things wrong so it kind of triggers something yeah and it's actually I've had dreams actually about drinking since yeah since I stopped like kind of like I guess like an anxiety dream that like you drink and and everything goes peter hong yeah so i get that all the time i have found that since becoming alcohol free i don't really like the word sober because i think it just sounds weighted like i just i'm free from alcohol it's how i feel i would say i've just got a much better connection with myself and it's it's like are you she said something to me ages ago that really stuck with me it's about choosing the you of tomorrow yeah the right way yeah it's like choosing the person like choosing

how you're going to feel the next day or like the future you yeah that's showing up for that person so that's really helpful i think if like oh but how the moment you say no to that drink now i actually don't find it hard i like don't want it I see people drinking like cheap champagne at like a kind of launch party you know and I'm just like oh like you're gonna have a headache tomorrow and I'm gonna feel great smug person um I do find it annoying that when they don't have good alcohol-free options so many so many people so many places do now it's getting a lot better abroad not so much and also people like weddings and stuff like that yeah so I haven't had um I had one I have had one small London wedding um but I've got two coming up this spring I'm actually excited for them because so often with weddings especially if there's more than one night

the first night I'd normally like get a bit overexcited, have too many cocktails. And then like the actual wedding, I'd be like trying not to like vomit in the bush, like not able to enjoy it, like filled with anxiety and just feeling like horrible. Yeah. And then like can't really remember it all.

Does it make you feel anxious about going to a place like that? Sober or not? No, actually now I'm kind of just excited because I've started to actually enjoy going out again and enjoy conversations with people that I would just never even bother to have before I feel like I'm much more like interested in what people have to say and like able to actually connect connect so I'm actually kind of excited dancing sober I think that's going to take me a bit you know what my dancing was like when I was drinking? Pretty great.

I think it was great. Yeah, but you are a naturally good dancer. Yeah. Do you bring those dance moves out sober? I can't. And this is my one thing. People say it comes back. Really?

I don't know if I'm ever gonna be like to be honest my my drunk dancing was so bad I thought it was good but actually yeah I've had some flashbacks and it really wasn't that's the one area that I really wanna crack is the dancing because I just feel like a sober rave or something we just need to go and I have a practice but you know that I like to do I want like R&B yeah me too should we find a sober R&B dance class yeah but only if it's only if it's just me and you only if it's just us I'd actually be quite up to start with but yeah i need to yeah i definitely think i do feel like quite embarrassed dancing and that is something with alcohol would always

help with because it's such a fun thing to do it's so freeing it is freeing i'm gonna work on that but maybe i should have some dance lessons before we wrap up I just wanted to ask you as well what is one thing about yourself that people wouldn't know or wouldn't expect used to play the drums well did you play them well I thought it was pretty good actually I used to have this like bright blue drum kit in above my parents garage yeah I'm just remembering when we went rowing no when we went rowing in Hyde Park and you actually like I'm just okay well this is actually something people don't know about me I'm just right there we go I'm dyspraxic I have dyspraxia and but like yeah yeah for those that don't know can you explain it's a learning disability so people have often heard of dyslexia which affects like your spelling um and the way you like put

words together and you're reading and writing that kind of thing but dyspraxia affects your hand-eye coordination hence why i'm so fine dancing so difficult um like for me one of my things that it really affects anything like learning a routine like a dance routine like no chance like I will not be going on strictly at any point any time because literally it would be impossible um if you throw a ball at me I will not catch it I've thrown plenty of balls at you and they have just like hit if I try and throw a ball it normally goes the opposite direction to what I think it's gonna go um so no ball sports for me um and yeah I'm just basically

quite uncoordinated and yet you played the drums yeah see there you go doesn't need to stop me from doing anything anything's possible anything's possible well thank you so much for joining me my love I didn't know I thought you were gonna like read me my like tea leaves I hope you enjoyed this week's conversation it was so nice to get Millie on it was interesting because you know obviously we have spent so much time together as friends we're now at these very different points in our lives but to kind of come back together it's it's a really beautiful thing I think with friendships when you go off and you do your own thing but ultimately when there's a real strong like connection and love

there it doesn't really matter that you're doing different things and you're or you're on different paths because there's always that mutual respect and love for each other and so I very much feel that with Millie it was lovely to get her on the show really and I hope that you guys found it an interesting conversation and it gave you an understanding of Millie from perhaps a different angle and also from our relationship which has always had a lot of humor and has been very playful and so I'm very grateful for that thank you so much for listening and as always remember you are not alone and if you are struggling with sobriety you can message me or Millie about it I know that she is very open to talking with people about it online, as am I.

So I hope we can help in some capacity if it's something you relate to. I will see you guys next week. And as always, remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.