Saturn Returns with Caggie - 7.5 The Sweetness of Solitude with Francesca Specter

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

In this week’s episode of Saturn Returns Caggie is joined by renowned podcast host and author of the book “Alonement: How to be Alone and Absolutely Own in”, Francesca Specter. After her breakup several years ago, Francesca coined the term ‘Alonement’ and lives in alignment with finding joy in solitude. Francesca shares insight into the value of self love, making decisions for yourself and thriving in your own company. It is no secret that people often desire love and the comforts partnership can bring us and whilst these are things to be celebrated, there is also great value in creating the space to rediscover parts of ourselves that we may have abandoned in order to mould ourselves in relationships. They also discuss the loneliness that can stem from the pressure to conform to the life choices that our friends and family have made, for instance marriage and children. This sparked the discussion on the value of diversifying our circle and questioning if we are living in true alignment with our own desires. Caggie and Francesca also delve into the societal stereotypes that contrast the celebrated image of a “bachelor” with the pitiful perception of a “spinster”, and how these stereotypes can be negated by the transformative power of finding joy in solitude.    You can find Francesca Specter at @chezspecter on Instagram and Twitter. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. In today's episode of Saturn Returns, I'm joined by the lovely Francesca Spector, who is the author of an incredible book called Alonement. Alonement is a non-fiction book that explores the concept of being alone and the benefits of spending time in solitude. In this episode we really unpack not only the art of being alone and how to actually lean into that, we discuss healthy interdependency, we discuss attachment styles, we explore the sort of dance and the eternal struggle between

healthy interdependency and freedom alone time and togetherness safety and closeness versus mystery and danger these sort of dualities and dichotomies that come when we go into relationship and i really resonated with so much of what she said about self-abandoning in relationship. I think especially as women, it's something we are programmed to do. And so when we get used to that pattern and recognize it, it can make us pull in the other direction. And then it's about kind of finding that happy medium, which really this conversation is all about. I also found it really interesting when we discussed how when people are in marriages or have children, and we see that as a version of happiness and success

that we should all be striving to achieve. But very often we're not hearing or seeing the full picture and the reality and the struggles of what that might be like because people don't necessarily want to share it and I find that a very true thing it's also really worth considering like what do you truly want what is right for you not just echoing the voices of those around you or doing what everyone else is doing because that's what your social circle is doing like really questioning these things and I hope that this conversation gives you some food for thought in that. Francesca welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you for having me on. How are you doing today? Doing really well

the sun is shining I'm feeling alive for the first time in 2023 and very ready to do this podcast actually I've been listening back to past episodes and it and very ready to do this podcast actually I've been listening back to past episodes and it's very nice to guest on one of your favorite podcasts oh really yes that's so sweet of you oh I just felt so held by it recently you know obviously being around that time of life it's just so nice to have something where it's like you feel part of a community of people sat and returning because how old are you I'm 31 okay so maybe maybe I'm a little bit maybe I'm a couple of years older than my sat in return when when's it supposed to happen well you could be going through it could I a belated one perhaps when's your birthday October

17th okay yeah we should look into when yours actually because do you feel like there's a shift happening at the moment for you I think so and I wonder I wonder whether it we're allowed to put this into the sort of you know the pandemic happened so we lost a couple of years um school of thought so maybe we were all supposed to happen at some point and then they're happening belatedly because we feel like we've lost those two years yeah well for the audience that doesn't know, would you be able to explain a little bit about like who you are and what you do? Because I think that it's going to be such an important subject

that we're going to be exploring today. So I would love, yeah, for you to kind of give a bit of an intro if that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. So I am Francesca Spector. I'm an author of a book called Alonment, How to Be Alone and Absolutely Own It. And I host a podcast with the same name, Alonement. And it's something that I felt the need to sort of create, coin,

dedicate most of my career to talking about because I was initially, perhaps three, four years ago ago perhaps pre my Saturn return you know I was this person that never really understood the value of alone time understood why that was an experience that someone would seek out rather than seek to avoid it or costs and it's been the most impactful thing initially for me and for I suppose as the podcast and as the book has grown for my audience it's become this experience that I don't know I suppose it gives you the time and the the actual space in your calendar to do those things that

we talk so much about the the manifesting the journaling the the meditation so yeah I suppose that's really why I think I felt the need to invent that word for it because I think we were saying these things we say these things all the time but without spelling it out you kind of don't almost give that space that much importance and what was your what was the sort of journey that brought you to that point where you actually started having to kind of spend that time alone because it wasn't like you were some because I'm I'm someone that's always enjoyed being alone and I am quite an introvert so people that know me I'm the one that you kind of have to like force to get out of the house so it's always

been quite a normal practice for me so what was your kind of experience like because it was quite different wasn't it it was um and firstly I love it when people say this I have a sort of I don't know just a mad love affair with introversion I think it's the coolest way to be and I think it's really funny that we talk about you know extroversion there's you know pre-pand, at least as the sort of default that you should sort of gravitate towards. Because it's great that you've always had that instinct to take that space for yourself. But for me, as you alluded to, for me, it was a really different journey. I was, I am wired to be an extrovert.

You're a Libra. I'm a Libra yes I'm a Libra tend to be very sociable interesting okay this is interesting it's like the convergence of my sort of yeah my my Libra nurse my extroversion my I'm obsessed with Myers-Briggs personality tests so all of these things I'd love to read that in relation to uh to my star sign now but I so that that is how I'm naturally wired and they say also it's um well you know I suppose if it's coded into your star sign it can be when you're born but it's also genetic so I I think that I I still respect that uh gym myself and I know now that you know I'm a person that works independently

most of the time and I know that I need to plan time in my week to energize to be around others but like all good stories mine with alonement started uh with a breakup which happened god getting on for I think four years ago now uh it was it was pre-pandemic uh which is funny because everyone sort of thinks that I found um alone time in the pandemic but it wasn't that no it wasn't it was uh it was a time so it was a time in my life I think I was 27 about to turn 28 um I had this very nice relationship that I thought you know I think you do think in your late 20s perhaps naively that it will turn into you know the full stop relationship the marriage the this the that and with with a fellow extrovert I and I suppose I didn't even know the terminology for

this now but we were quite codependent we were both quite extroverted quite happily so quite sociable and when we weren't around others we were around each other and that was just the way that we were and at the time we were happy and then we weren't um and that you know I'm not saying that relationship broke up because neither of us spent enough time alone. But I will say that for whatever reason it did break up, I'm happy it did. Because having gone through that and having gone through the breakup and then this time when I sort of, you know, popped my head above the surface, looked around and realized a lot of my close friends were in relationships and I was going to have to cope with this not by always surrounding myself with people to drown out the noise but sort of going a bit more inwards to process and to heal in that in that process of doing that I sort of realized that actually it's not that the relationship wasn't meeting my needs, but I wasn't meeting my own needs in the relationship.

I was neglecting a lot of the hopes and dreams I'd really had for myself, one of which was writing a book and having this sort of independent creative career in favor of the sort of the codependent dream, you know, in favor of doing what I suppose I thought my whole life I should do. And I think that revelation was so profound for me

and so important for me that the more I talked about it with other people and, you know, the more I sort of benefited from this alone healing space, the more I thought this needs to be something that goes beyond me not enough people told me that as an extrovert I could benefit from sort of going against my natural instinct it's interesting you just mentioned something the codependent dream which um you know the way I interpret that is it reminds me of how we're kind of we're sold this idea especially as women growing up it's like the Disney dream the kind of romanticizing enmeshment in in partnership and as a consequence to that we often abandon ourselves and our own needs and don't even realize that we're doing it so it sounds like that was slightly in your experience

right the relationship kind of became center stage and you neglected aspects of yourself to kind of stay in that partnership yeah absolutely I mean the you know a key example um I would say that reading and journaling are two of the things that two of the practices I do that make me feel most like myself I feel happiest I feel calmest that's a big way in which I use my alone time I didn't do those things in that relationship and it was by no means because my ex-boyfriend was telling me not to do them uh I mean we just we just yeah I just I just didn't and it happens quite naturally and I think that you know journaling for instance that can be quite a natural thing to do sometimes sometimes it feels like you don't want to do

that so I suppose what you referred to that sort of romantic notion of being enmeshed with another person you kind of think well I don't need to confront any difficult thoughts because I've got this soothing presence next to me and this sort of curable solution to my problems of course it doesn't work out like that but that's what you romanticize and hope it will be and you just invest more time and effort in trying to make that work rather than yourself and also you know that a relationship when it does become codependent rather than two independent separate people that are responsible for their own healing and in partnership it's like that enmeshment makes

people feel like the other person's responsible for their healing and their happiness and all the things but you say reading and writing those in itself sound like quite introspective almost introvert things to do in itself so would you say that you are more naturally a kind of extrovert person or you kind of possess both because I always find it such an interesting thing how people like define themselves as one or the other and what really what makes someone an introvert or an extrovert so from your experience what are those things I think it's just the fact that I don't feel energized I feel sort of I suppose demotivated when I haven't spent enough time around other people and ironically um you know I realized this most profoundly

in lockdown when you know I'd already um you know I was already writing my book I was already thinking mostly about the alonement and the thing the discoveries I'd made pre-lockdown in that space of moderation and balance where alonement most thrives um i i think i started to have more and i i say this because they're very distinct things i started to feel more loneliness than i'd ever felt before because i because i it was very unnatural scenario we weren't able to get the normal sort of functional social framework that most of us introverts or extrovert thrive upon and it was realizing that and I think it was realizing how impactful it was for me particularly um that was that reminded me you know I am an

extrovert that kind of it gave me more of a I don't know it made me believe more actually that we really are wired one way or another um and it does then sound strange when I I realize it sounds strange when I say yes but you know I love reading I love writing um and I guess yeah I suppose the only way I can describe it is I think you know I think introverts and extroverts we each have like a make or break energizing function and you know for introverts the make or break function would be getting that alone time you don't have it you don't feel human without it whereas I was I suppose I was surviving without having any alone time in my relationship um but you know I wasn't I wasn't thriving and I think so you know I suppose the I need the I need the alone time to sort of not to become too much

of an Instagram cliche but then I need it to thrive I need it to get to beyond that you know coping energy state you know to towards the sort of okay but I'm you know I'm around people but I'm also reaching for what I want what you know what I'm dreaming about yeah it's interesting because you know you spoke about it reframing your view on relationships and I kind of want to touch on that but the lion's share I'd say of our community kind of the podcast Saturn Returns came out during the pandemic and I think it um people discovered it at that moment in time where they were perhaps feeling lonely and the aim of the podcast is you know the log line of it is you are not alone and that was just a coincidence that when we decided that then sort of seven or five months later whatever we went into a pandemic um but it was

i guess an appropriate thing to be saying and gave people a lot of comfort but that piece you mentioned about you know starting the book on we we come into this world alone and we and we leave it on our own isn't something i think because i spoke to someone about it the other day how when especially in romantic partnership we give each other this idea of forever you know we sell each other romance like it's going to be something that lasts forever but if you think about it it never will it's impossible for it to but that's such a it pierces that bubble on that dream a little bit. So I guess my question is, how has it reframed your view on relationship? And how has that been beneficial? And what have you sacrificed? It almost makes relationships of any kind. And I, you know, I count,

you know, friendships in this as well. I mean, I suppose the conditional relationships you form, you know, friendships in this as well. I mean, I suppose the, the conditional relationships you form, um, you know, in, in, in your life outside of your family, it makes them more romantic. I don't really believe in the notion of a soulmate. And I know that people, you know, some people do, some people don't, but personally I don't, I believe, and I don't really believe in sort of love at first sight, those notions. I think that relationships are something that you build over time. And the way that you're building that is, I suppose, realizing that you're not, you weren't sort of destined to be together. you know by the universe this isn't an inevitability and there is this this distance that you will never be able to um cross in its entirety but you know between your brains between the way they were all sort of trapped in our own heads but we're trying we're trying all the time

we're doing you know we're even in love languages we're buying each other little thoughtful gifts to say oh i've really i've really tried to understand you here oh you know we're saying saying oh you know we're saying thoughtful things and we're we're really it's that constant effort that's the that's the romantic part for me now and I suppose in the past I wouldn't have necessarily respected that distance as much I would have thought um oh you know we're you know we're like two peas in a pod we're like you know we're this for that and just kind of assumed that we would like the same things and do the same things and have the same dreams yeah that understanding without it even having to be explained completely yeah completely and it's it's

oh it's so romantic as a notion but I think it's all equally romantic you know I'm the product of very happily married parents and it really is in the in the little things I don't you know they met outside a nightclub in Marbella I don't think that was a great you know romantic story but I think that everything that's happened since then has been and I suppose you know I would have once upon a time gone out sort of looking to meet the one in a bar but you know I think that now the idea that you make your one over time over efforts and over you know the idea of sort of of I suppose interdependency as opposed to codependency almost trying to achieve your dreams and your wants alongside each other sometimes very closely

together but alongside each other that's that's become what I'm looking for now and it really I don't know I mean in practical terms it makes you end up looking for very different types of people I think that I would have before been looking for someone that I just I suppose it's that sort of anxious attachment thing you want someone that can reassure you every second of every day whereas now I suppose the huge value that I look for in a relationship um is freedom and I don't mean you know I don't mean in some sort of you know very Berlin-esque polyamorous setup I don't mean that um but freedom to be your fullest expression of self that and you know you know, whatever form that comes in. And I am still experimenting.

I feel like I've almost gone back to the drawing board in terms of what I want, because I think I have made the mistake perhaps in, you know, the recent years of maybe looking for someone who gives me freedom, but also then coming up against someone being very aloof. And that's not what I want it's hard to get the balance yeah that is true that's a really in terms of refining what you're looking for has that been something that's become a practice for you that you go back to and that you're very clear on I think I'd like to think it was I'd like to think you know we do with this the modern dating world of you know dating apps

and you probably I don't know I don't know if there's any stats on this but I imagine you end up dating a lot more people than say you know your parents your grandparents did in that process you like to think that it's all um even if you're not tracking it on some sort of excel spreadsheet here it's all a sort of marvelously tailored process and you're realizing things I don't I I think I I don't know how true that is I think sometimes there is messiness there's you know the stabs in the dark but I do think looking back I see more of a pattern emerging I think that for me I was drawn to perhaps a greater degree of not aloofness I think I think the truth that is Kagi that I I don't think I was in the past two three years necessarily looking for a long-term relationship I think perhaps I am more now although I can't be certain certain about that but I think

that I almost internalized the sort of the I don't know the Bridget Jones perception of being single that it's not intentional that you can't really just be looking for you know fun and romance but not necessarily anything long term I never took ownership of that um and I kind of almost wish I had well I think I I went through I think I was probably dating the wrong people but I don't think I was that was a tragic mistake I think I went through, I think I was probably dating the wrong people, but I don't think I was, that was a tragic mistake. I think I was almost, I think there was intentionality there. But subconscious intentionality. Maybe subconscious, but maybe also, I don't know, maybe I was looking to have things that

were short term. Maybe that wasn't my, and I don't, I suppose even as a woman I think as a woman maybe in your early 30s that's almost a sort of forbidden thing right to date and not be dating intentionally and I don't think I was dating intentionally and I think now actually that was okay yeah 100% that's okay I'm curious to know because it sounds like obviously you did a lot of reprogramming around your relationship to relationship and then you know found this whole thing that's become this brand and this book and this podcast and this idea of alone but how much of that then becomes entangled with your sense of identity and how much of it then made you sort of and I'm speaking from also my own personal experience here because I think often if

we recognize that in relationship perhaps we are we lean towards codependency or enmeshment or we self-abandon and then when we are single and we you know feel much more rooted and anchored and then things start flourishing in our careers in our personal life and other aspects and becoming more full then on some level we can view a relationship as something that will actually take away from our autonomy that actually it will pull from our independence and what's that kind of journey been like of like balancing those things out with a new sort of awareness around what kind of partnership you want to call in I think it's funny only as you're even saying that I think perhaps that was where I was at um I the idea that a relationship was a trap or could be in that period of my life I think

actually you know giving myself that time to just sort of enjoy it and say okay this won't be this might not be a relationship yeah although that's probably the most surefire way to find you know mean that you yeah you end up in a relationship on january the first you know that's but i think yeah i think that that was maybe something i was thinking for myself and I think it's you know there's no perfect there's no perfect solution I think that relationships are a surrender but they're a necessary one and they can also represent freedom in their own way and that's I suppose that's how I've sort of rebranded that or reframed that for myself. And they can be because I think that, you know, I alluded before to, you know,

this sort of bizarrely, bizarrely kind of everlasting Bridget Jones factor that we still haven't quite grown out of as a society where you sort of, you know, judge yourself and question yourself for being single and I think sometimes a nice thing about being in a relationship is that you're not worrying about dating you're not worrying about what do you have to say to people at parties and no that's not something you should tailor your whole life around at all but it's it's a nice thing it's it's a freedom not having to worry about that part of your life not have to have that thursday night dating schedule certainly is it's much nicer to spend it with someone that you

care about and you're thriving with and also i guess on a deeper level that a relationship can be a container for your fullest expression and like you mentioned a second ago about cultivating independence within the context of a relationship. So both people feel a sense of freedom rather than it being restrictive in any way. But you mentioned the Bridget Jones thing a couple of times. And I want to get into that because the majority of our listeners are female. And they are mainly 25 to 35. 35 but of course we have listeners that are older and younger than that but there's a particular narrative around sort of women in

their late 20s to early 30s and it can be I think quite corrosive because it's this sort of if you aren't if you aren't in a relationship, there's something wrong with you. Like you have a missing piece. And so I get so many messages from women in their late 20s saying, oh, I've just broken up with someone after five years and I'm terrified about being alone. And I thought this was going to be my person and I don't know what to do. And I'm, you know, 28, 29 and I'm you know 28 29 and I'm terrified and I just think that's so sad that people feel that way that women feel that way because they have so long to figure that stuff out and also to recognize

that a relationship isn't the be-all and end-all but at the same time I do understand there are very real pressures and you know what it always comes back around to is like the that narrative of the biological clock that we have to kind of find someone that we want to spend our life with and then you know get to know them for a period of time and then figure out the rest but what has it what's your experience been like in terms of reframing that and what would your advice be for people that are feeling that fear around being alone yeah it's it's funny isn't it you kind of it's so bizarre how you can feel that pressure at the age of 28 whereas you know you and i looking back now like that's that's crazy that's so young i think that we are relational human beings you know as i alluded to before you know

the pressure sometimes to be in a relationship one of the nicest things about being in a relationship as trivial as it sounds is not worrying about it right but for me the most healing thing has been having a diverse group of friends in terms of age relationship status all of the life choices because even i mean even the biological clock i think that's really interesting it's interesting to have friends who don't necessarily want children or who are unsure about it because you that i mean that changes dating entirely i wonder if we don't talk enough about that I remember I was on a podcast called um a single serving with um I think it's pronounced Sharni Silver but I'm thinking phonetically Sharni Silver but she's a you know she's a New York journalist and she said to me

you know I'm in she was in her late 30s at the time but she said I I've never wanted kids so this is not age does not make any difference to me in terms of when I'm going to meet people I don't feel I'm on that timeline and I think that's a whole interesting perspective to begin with um obviously it's more difficult if you are wed to the idea of um having biological children and then have that pressure rightly or wrongly in your head it's it's a huge pressure um but i think it's some i think the any of these life choices you know being in a relationship having children any of them it's never a surefire way to happiness unless it's the right choice unless it's the right

framework to be in and the only way you can sort of know that and be assured of that in you know in times when you are feeling the pressure is by having those examples around you you know of different ways of living and not only that like I think it's not only just having a diverse group of friends in terms of their their different stages I think it's also having honesty because I think that there is I totally understand why this is, but there is a tendency to sort of clam up and not talk to your friends in the same way that you might have before once you get into a relationship. Yeah, especially notice when people are married and then have children. Whereas I feel that at the beginning, at least like very much the beginning stages of dating, whereas I feel that at the beginning,

at least like very much the beginning stages of dating, people are more honest about the goings on of the relationship and how things are feeling. But once people are married with kids, that doesn't seem to happen. Is that what you mean in terms of it just then it's presented as everything's great? Yeah. And then from the outside but you know you mentioned about

diversifying friendship groups and i think that is so key because so much of what people message me about is all my friends are getting married and having children so of course if you've got a circle of friends that are all doing the same thing at the same time you're going to feel like the odd one out but if you have different friends that are different ages, making different life choices, you can then really establish what you want for you versus just doing what you feel the pressure to do because everyone else is doing it. Completely. Because, you know, it's all well and good saying, you know, journal and think about it and, you know, mood board your life.

But realistically, we also live in the real world and we need examples all around us, whether that's our friendship groups, whether that's watching, I don't know, watching certain movies, reading certain books. We need that fullness of experience so that when we're thinking about these things, when we're catastrophizing,

we're not saying, oh, everyone's engaged or everyone's having kids. Because that's a very small um group of people that's definitely not you know scientifically accurate is it then what happens is people you know the algorithm starts throwing you more of what you're thinking about so people probably go on to instagram or facebook and just see a sea of engagement rings and and babies and think well everyone is getting married but again it's like where are you directing your focus what are you educating yourself with how are you kind

of opening up your world to different ways of being yeah but for the for the honesty piece in terms of when people are in marriages and perhaps starting families is that what you meant do you feel like people then don't present the full truth of the reality of the situation yeah and i think there are multiple reasons for this um and i think that you know it's it's not this is not you know oh those married people not telling us the truth i think it's lonely for all people involved you know i think if you happen to meet someone nice and get married to them and then you you know your friend is single and you're not sharing the the ups and downs of your life with them that can make you lonely you know that can make the married person and the single person lonely that's that's hard and I think that the reason perhaps and I'm only

guessing here I think the reason you feel pressured to not talk about the nuance of that experience is because you've just had a huge expensive party where you said one you know you've very much presented one sort of front to everyone to everyone that you know and that almost it almost feels like an admission of failure to say okay this is a bit tricky or this is but the reality is that is just life and you know there will be ups and downs and we're still no matter you know how much societally we sort of put these things in the hierarchy you're not necessarily happy in marriage you're just sort of going through a different experience and and that's okay and i think that if we were able to acknowledge that then we wouldn't be trapping ourselves in these sort of you know lonely cages of of um of putting

up a front yeah because we've spoken about sort of the loneliness and being single and kind of owning that but what about the loneliness you feel when in partnership or in relationship because like you just mentioned I think that especially when people have made that decision and that choice and got married and taken that step to admit that they are having doubts or that they are unhappy or feeling lonely feels like this huge admission because they have perhaps had this big party and have presented a different version and I think that there's probably a lot of shame in that as well so what are your kind of thoughts on people that might be navigating that feeling the shame is a really interesting point as well because I think that you know for instance

with parenting it's so funny when I speak to my friends who are new parents they'll say to me and you know the algorithm as you've mentioned earlier has a lot to answer for they'll say to me oh yeah I've you know I've only breastfed for six months or something like that and they'll say oh but but this but that um you know oh but it's okay but I'm doing this and it's like they're having a conversation with someone who's not me and I'm like look I'm not suing you I'm not the parenting police like it's it's okay like I know that there's so much pressure on you but please know that there's a world outside of that you don't need to be trapped in that and I think sometimes the loneliness and the shame can come

around that feeling that you're in this new role and you're you're trying you you should be being a certain way um and you're scared that you're failing at it you're scared that you're failing at it and it's in the all these life stages can be really really lonely if they're not approached in that in that way where you are sort of allowed to be a bit lonely, sorry, allowed to be a bit gentle with yourself so you're not feeling lonely and allowed to be honest about it. So, I mean, I don't, it's difficult, isn't it?

And I think it's funny. It's funny how there is this odd hierarchy where, and my friends and relationships don't do this because they're wonderful, but there is this sense that, oh, if you're a relationship if you've you've bagged a man if you've managed to do that you get to advise um single people on how to do how to do that you know it's really funny and and i and it's so it's i'm almost sort of thinking out loud here but it feels funny almost giving advice to people in that life stage to say, oh, it's okay. People in relationships and happily married people, you can do this.

But I think we can all learn from each other. And yeah, I don't, I mean, I feel like I've been on both sides of the fence because I've also done all the wrong things in a relationship. And I know that relying on one partner, however lovely for everything was a lonely space to be in as well. And I suppose my dispatch from this time of my life, when in many ways I feel more held and more loved and more thought, I suppose, in my richness of different kinds of relationships than ever, is that you don't have to get everything from one person opening up is incredible and you know if you surround yourself with close friends because I know it's in vogue to talk about that a little

bit more but we haven't previously um you know in previous sort of decades talked about the importance of friendship you know that that's how you get through the shame that's you know you don't even though society tells you that that romantic relationships or parenthood should in itself be a complete experience it's not and you know single people people in relationships people of all stages alike from realizing that can really really thrive i think really really enjoy it a lot more I like what you said about you know that we can learn from every stage and that there should we should sort of deconstruct this social hierarchy that feels very present because it does definitely happen it's like the single to relationship to married to family and then whatever stage you're at you're constantly

asked about when you're going to get to the next so if you're single it's like do you want a relationship when you're going to find a partner and then when you're with someone it's like when you're getting married then when you're married it's when are you having a child and it does then create this constant feeling of you know you need to get to the next stage but then when you are at the next stage you're compared and you feel like you're in competition and I don't know it because I'm not there yet but I've heard from people when they have kids especially suddenly you know all the things that they aren't doing right and this very competitiveness that comes from other mothers

often of oh you've gone back to work very early. That's very odd. Or you haven't gone back to work. And that's very, do you know what I mean? And it sort of feels like we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. So I love what you said about being able to learn. And what would your advice be for people catching themselves

before jumping into that hierarchy whether that's feeling oh I'm single therefore I'm lower down or oh I've got a relationship so I can dish out advice I think not to sort of be a parody of myself but I think it does come into that alone time I think it comes into thinking you know just looking at your at your past week your past month and you know thinking was I happy am I happy here what what do I feel I need because I think if you don't take that space away from away from others you know away from you know being slightly embarrassed that you have to say this thing or that thing at a party then you're not really you're not really going to be tuning in with yourself how what your actual experience of this has been and you know maybe that maybe it means you're

you're totally miserable but you're totally miserable because you're lacking something that you're wanting not because someone else has told you you are but equally you could be really happy and loving it i think that that's too that's the case too and i think we don't we don't you know we don't allow each other to be we don't allow ourselves almost to be miserable when we're doing this sort of quote unquote right thing and we don't allow ourselves to be happy when we're doing the quote unquote wrong thing and if we took a second to just think how we're feeling in this reality that would i think that would really help yeah actually carving

out that time to sit with ourselves and to check in because it does require sort of interrogating those narratives that come in and that conditioning and when we do find ourselves in situations where people start questioning or prodding or making us feel like one of the things I had recently um I went out with a friend and this guy who's lovely guy but and he didn't mean anything by it but he said oh you know I know so many wonderful women in their 30s but the pool is just so small for them it's so sad and I was like that's such I just had to stop him I was like you cannot go around saying things like that because it continuously makes women feel this sort of scarcity mentality and it's it's sort of spread out so you know freely like there's nothing wrong with saying that kind of stuff so what is your kind of advice on on that particular piece around you know fear of finding someone or

that there isn't enough love out there i mean look if if you live on a tiny island and i don't know the scottish hebrides or whatever there might not be enough people but god you know i think i mean a lot of people listening to this you know living in cities and towns and whatever there's you know we have for you know for better or for worse we have dating apps we have so you know we have so many different ways to live you know we're liberated we're you know women are even allowed to go out on the street by themselves these days it's fantastic it's the 21st century you know we have so many things that we can do so many ways to to live and explore and widen our social circles that I think it's so

absurd to even it's it's so absurd to you know, contemplate that as a possibility. And yet, and yet that fear is there. And it's funny because, you know, you touch on, if I were to sort of summarize, you know, the thing that I try to do through my writing and, you know, through my work, it really is to encourage people to live out of passion and curiosity rather than than fear because i think fear is a terrible terrible motivation i think it it would be i think it would just be acknowledging that those statements are scary you know as you've said it's it's scaremongering and that you know acknowledging why they're scary but knowing that that's not fact. And I suppose also questioning why people say this, because I think anyone encouraged to make that sort of statement,

maybe there's an insecurity there. Maybe that's, I don't want to sort of bad mouth this stranger that sort of you and your friend met in the pub but i i think that when people say those things when people have say these statements that try and make the world small that could be a feeling of like almost wanting that to be the case you know almost wanting to think that these empowered thirsty something women with great lives it you know should be so lucky to go out

with them you know and i think there's a misogyny yeah yeah how so let's talk about the kind of internalized misogyny here because obviously we all know that the the labels that women get coined are less desirable whereas a man in a very similar position will get something very very different for instance you mentioned the Bridget Jones then we have the spinster and then on the other side for men it's bachelor silver fox you know it's got very very very different connotations so is that something you've kind of considered exploring or how do we kind of unpack that it's funny i'm thinking about the sort of etymology of you know misogyny and i'm thinking how you know the root of it is based in fear right it's the fear of women it's not

you know it's not just despising women it's it's really in a sense of fear and I wonder sometimes you know how you know if a if a child comes last in a race they'll sort of get a badge for trying or you'll give them consoling words you'll say you were this you were that I wonder if there's almost a sense of like why are we so forcefully branding single men in this positive way and why is there so much desire to make single women feel feel bad is is it because a you know open question here is it because a single woman in the 21st century is such a powerful thing is because it's such a powerful rich experience regardless of a man you know and increasingly you know i think that you know there's some narrows there's some conversation recently around how the you know there aren't enough and there aren't there aren't

enough resources you know like your wonderful podcast you know directly for for men there's not enough support i think it's much more difficult for men to be single i think there was a study not too long ago about how men are more lonely when they are single um you know and i think that the stats speak against the sort of the the narratives that get thrown around that's interesting yeah and you know i wonder how much louder um and how much yeah more ridiculous the sort of you know the bridget jonesification of single women gets i wonder if that almost correlates with how being single becomes more of a valid experience for a woman because you know we know that women do it's just biology you know if you if you have

children you do end up giving a lot more up in within a relationship and statistically you know women when you know when they get divorced they're much less likely to remarry quickly than the men do um you know are we kind of are we powerful beyond beyond our might you know when we are single as women you know is that something that we're missing here and is that why there's such an outcry against that and i think you know we forget to even contemplate that might be the the case ability yeah so that kind of naturally leads me towards you know how we cultivate a life for ourself independently for those kind of listening and feeling that void perhaps a relationship has ended or wanting to just embrace life in its fullest regardless of a relationship at this stage what would be your advice for someone to do that

i mean voids get a bad reputation right you know i like to call it the fertile void i always do yeah i think it's like you know you have to plant the seed and wait for it to grow and there's a a necessary void and a space like the in between when you're kind of about to become the person you're supposed to be and you have to trust that space yeah oh I love that the fertile void yeah and you know I guess oh you sort of fed me my answer there and I love it it's it is you know it's that fertile space it's that you know it's that blank sheet of paper and it's so exciting terrifying but terrifying and exciting often go together and you know I think you know it's that blank sheet of paper and it's so exciting terrifying but terrifying and exciting often go together and you know I think you know we talk about things like

manifesting we talk about mood boarding I think you know it's a time to really lean into that stuff and think what could life look like because that is a big big window of time you've just been gifted there you know when you're newly single uh you know and I think also just having conversations with other friends who are not you know not necessarily single but you know friends that you think lead a really rich and full life I'm thinking of one of my friends in particular um who I she took a year off dating after her relationship which i think was absolutely incredible as a decision it was very you know as i said it was very intentional in a way i haven't previously felt brave enough to be um she's trained as a yoga teacher she learned uh spanish

and italian actually you know she has so much curiosity and i think she ended up you know we sort of need we need role models in all areas of life including relationships um but she was almost my single role model in that respect i thought wow this is such inspiration for how to do that yeah single role model single role model yeah because there aren't i don't think it's something I've really thought about before yeah because I suppose and again I kind of I almost go back to they don't have to necessarily be single because I guess you think single role model and then you think oh what characterizes a single woman and um you know I laugh about it because sometimes people think when you're single you're this like party animal and I'm certainly not I think I disappoint people a bit when they say you know like what what crazy single things have you been up to and I'm like much the same as you and your partner like you're cooking

dinner got really into my slow cooker last month you know I think um you know and I think but just looking at people with rich and full lives and thinking okay like what what am I curious about in their life and then then that becomes the inspiration for how to fill that that fertile void you know i keep using that but i love that expression and what about those that really struggle with just sitting in their own company because i know that that's something people find achingly painful well you know my book the subtitle is how to be alone and and to absolutely own it there's a process in that and I think that the process begins with

those baby steps um because god you know you're newly single you're you're not going to well it depends what kind of relationship you had but I certainly wasn't used to spending much time in my own company um you know even the fact that sometimes in relationships and I don't do this anymore but my my default once upon a time was to just you know text every every couple of hours or whatever and you're just uncomfortable but I think that those baby steps are really important I think things like you know I still I do 10 minutes of meditation with the calm app every morning and I think things like, you know, I still, I do 10 minutes of meditation with the Calm app every morning. And I think that's a really great space, even if I feel uncomfortable on that particular day with my thoughts, for whatever reasons, that pays dividends so much,

that 10 minute space. Or, you know, going out for a coffee by yourself, it doesn't have to be taking a solo holiday. It can be as radical as a small coffee and you know looking around you and thinking just almost being reminded sometimes of like just the different people that are out there some are alone some are in couples some are it's really wonderful if you go out there actually and see a bickering couple because you think i don't miss that but you know just reminding yourself just being out i've been developing that level of comfort um in your own company at home in your own company outside and also romancing yourself you know knowing that that's like romance isn't exclusive for a romantic partnership that you can live a romantic life

on your own and like you said it doesn't have to be a huge thing like but I'm going away for a couple of days on my own even I am in a relationship but I suddenly realized that I actually just needed to have some time and actually if I didn't cut like carve it out it just wasn't gonna happen and I haven't done that in a really long time so I'm I'm looking forward to it but for those that find it uncomfortable I think maybe baby steps of coffee on their own or a meal on their own or something like that and just to start getting used to and enjoying their own company completely to begin with because you know if you're unused to it you don't want to sort of scare yourself do you make yourself feel even lonelier yeah but

you know I'm curious that with the making the decision to you know go on holiday um by yourself in a relationship did you did you feel more able to sort of have that conversation now than perhaps in previous relationships or what was that process like yeah making that decision yeah it's interesting because you know you mentioned at the beginning the sort of the way in which you'd operate in relationship and I wouldn't expect to have time on your own almost and I think historically I've perhaps been like that as well but it's it is something I need it's like a non-negotiable for me and yet I would sacrifice it because I didn't know how to communicate it um but you know in this relationship we are both quite we're

both similar in that way and so my partner needs his time and he goes and does his things alone and that then invites me and makes me see that it's that that's okay and that that's actually encouraged and that that makes our relationship stronger because that's something we kind of touched on but didn't go into fully it's like having a relationship but then also having the time to yourself and I know I can imagine when you know I've met people recently that have got kids and they just have suddenly recognized that they haven't done anything for themselves they've kind of abandoned all the things that gave them joy and it didn't even happen intentionally it just happens because we tend to put ourself at the

bottom of the list so I think it's just about recognizing when you have overfilled your plate and you're wearing too many hats and just to take that time completely and I think it sounds like a loan month is a value that you have in your relationship and that's I think that's lovely I think it's I think it's an important value that I think every couple can benefit from but I think you know also in even in parent-child dynamics, because I, even though I clearly didn't pay much notice of it for the first 27 years of my life, my mother's an introvert. And I have memories of watching her sort of, you know, by herself, you know, doing a crossword at the kitchen table

in her sort of contented little bubble. I mean, you know, she gets up an hour or two earlier than everyone else just to sort of make sure she's got that time and I could I guess you can't be what you can't see and I suppose she was my earliest example of what a lone month could look like the fact that that was not her you know being lonely or needy by herself that was her being perfectly contented and I don't you know I don't know what the mechanism um by which a parent does this but you know I certainly think there is if it's somewhere that you've got in your own personal journey to value that time by yourself and you know hopefully it is because I think it's a lovely thing to discover it can be it's a nice

thing to be able to model for children well and like you you said earlier it's another example of a role model that's doing it in the context of a relationship so I think that's a really nice note to kind of end things on that people to start looking out for someone that can yeah to have an example of someone that is a role model of modeling that kind of behavior whether they are single or not completely because you can't be what you can't see 100 thank you so much for joining us on the saturn returns podcast is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners with as a little piece of advice oh well firstly thank you so much for having me on it's been

absolutely wonderful I suppose the we've talked a lot about the time of being single um and I think it's perfectly valid to want a relationship it's perfectly valid to want to be single and I suppose it's it's that that you know you are allowed to lean into that single time as well. And, and, and sometimes, you know, it might not necessarily, it's one might not necessarily be better than the other, but I think, you know, almost like a, as a sort of not a consolation, but, you know, a warning, you won't be single forever and actually valuing that time. That's first, my new favorite expression that's that's the thing that you should be most scared about not the comments that people make at parties

I love that thank you I hope you enjoyed listening to this conversation between myself and Francesca as much as I enjoyed having it. A couple of takeaways for me was this pervasive idea that women need to find a man or they are less than on their own or all these sort of floating around narratives of the spinster Bridget Jones. So many of you messaged me about worrying that you're single or that you've gone through a breakup and you're not even necessarily 30 yet. And I just feel that we all need to really consciously make a decision to reject these narratives, these sort of dismissing views of women that you are somehow less than

if you haven't been picked or chosen by a man, or that your worth is tied into all these things. Something that I'm looking into a lot at the moment is archetypes and how we kind of go through this transition from maiden to mother. And mother doesn't necessarily mean that you become a mother. It's more about embodying a certain way of being. I believe our society values the maiden, you know, a patriarchy that wants us to stay malleable and moldable and to be impressionable. And I think that like Francesca said, and also we've had it on other episodes this season, there's this fear around

a woman in her power. And often that comes when you are through your Saturn return, when you've kind of initiated through these stages and you know who you are, yet paradoxically society will try and discard you for those very things and it's something that I feel very passionately about and I think we all need to do our bit in reframing and supporting and encouraging each other. So I hope you found this useful and that it's made you feel comforted in whatever you're navigating and to yeah master the art of being alone because the relationship with yourself is the most important one you will ever have and on that I will leave you and I hope that you will join me again next week. Thank you so much for listening.

And as always, remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.